Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Steven Pyne from Holden & Partners an early adopter of ethical investments and growing a directly authorised IFA practice.

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Steven Pyne from Holden & Partners an early adopter of ethical investments and growing a directly authorised IFA practice. · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advisors.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: They have a new specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: And today's guest is Stephen Pine.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: He is one of the managing partners of Holden and Partners in London.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: And today he talks about the realities of running your own directly authorised practice and really what to expect when you move into the world of self-employment.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: He himself didn't want to feel like a cog in the wheel of a larger machine, so decided to set up Holden and Partners.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: But 15 years ago decided to specialise in ethical and sustainable investments.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: And back then you were a bit considered a bit of an oddball to do that.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas these days you're at a bit of an oddball if you're not looking at sustainable and ethical investments.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk about the realities of running your own practice, understanding your niche, and how you can use that to stand out, to generate new clients and new referral opportunities.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy the podcast.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Stephen, thanks so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm um I'm good.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Sam.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty, pretty busy time for us with the budget coming up on the 3rd of March and then the uh end of the tax year pretty swiftly after that.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of um all hands on deck, plus you know, kids at home, homeschooling.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um life is pretty busy at the moment, but um, you know, I'm not I'm not complaining.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're we're quite lucky compared with a lot of people.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, all in all, um pretty good.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty good, pretty good going.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Standard sort of stuff at the moment for a financial planner, I suppose.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: End of tax year is pretty pretty manic anyway.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: But chucking, like you say, lockdown and looking after kids and everything.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I bet the news yesterday about the 8th of March being uh returned to school was an absolute blessing.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: It certainly was for me having a little four-year and a half-year-old daughter who's running us ragged at home.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's um that that was uh I I think what a lot of people have been uh waiting for who've got you know young children at home.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um it's a big relief, yeah.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not not just for me, but for you know, loads of lots of people who uh who are in our our business who've been sort of um trying to juggle the workload of um so-called ininverted cobblers teaching their children.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't done much teaching to be honest.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be guilty.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's mainly done by um women in the household, so I'm told.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, it's um it's I think it's it's an impossible task, really.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just um you know, it's it comes down to um trying to keep them off the screen as much as possible in in some ways.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've all learned that teachers teachers perform a very valuable role in society, and um kids kids should be in school.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, 100%.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with you there.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, Stephen, thanks so much for agreeing to come onto the podcast.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sort of as mentioned before, and just to kind of reiterate if no one knows, but the Financial Planner Life podcast is all about understanding the career of those that work within the financial planning profession.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's really always interesting to me is to bring somebody on that's uh ran their own brisk business, built their own financial planning practice.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, not just being an employee, not that's a problem, but uh obviously running a brisk business is very different from being an employee and also hiring uh individuals, hiring financial planners, building a team around you, running the marketing, all the things that you do when you run your own business.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you spin a million in one plate.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: So really interesting to understand the realities, really.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the point of today is to find out really about you, what you've done in your career, some of the sort of perhaps paths you wouldn't tread again, and perhaps you could warn a few people about.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's there's uh you know, loads of loads of those.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's the thing, trial and error, isn't it, when you run your own business, without a shadow of a doubt.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you're you know, you are managing director of Holden Partners in London.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, like 12 years ago, I think we placed a candidate with you actually, um, quite some time, quite some time back.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you've been around for a while now.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: How long we have been around for a while, scarily.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it goes very quickly, but yeah, with 2003 we we started.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, it's a while ago.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Fab, okay.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right, so let's just kind of go back then.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go straight to Holden and Partners.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to talk about you too deep about your your career up until that point, but let's talk about Holden and Partners.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: What made you set up Holden and Partners and how did it come about?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there were I I was I was working quite closely with um three other guys, and we were at uh quite a large IFA, and you know, we we we we got to a point where you know I guess we were the the the large firm got bought out by um by a big bank, and we we we were at the point where we were thinking, well, do we really want to be to be part of a you know a large organization, you know, just a cog in the wheel?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: It it feels a bit alien to us.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we we we kind of went on walks at at lunchtime um back in the days when you worked in the office.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um that was, and um, you know, had a had a bit of a moan about it.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then um we we we thought to ourselves, well, why don't we you know do our own thing?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: If we're we're gonna be moaning about it all the time, we might as well um you know go for it our ourselves.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, after a couple of months of um, you know, planning and um speaking to various people who'd who'd kind of done um similar things before, we um we we we we you know got our um business off the ground and um we we've got um a guy um Peter Holden um who'd retired kind of prematurely, um, but he'd set up his own business, so he had quite a lot of experience.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we um there were five of us, we we got together, started as um, you know, out of a one-room office up in Highgate.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we we grew sort of fairly gradually from there.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it was um two 2003 was um you know an exciting, an exciting year.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, starting your own business is very exciting.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely, I agree with you there.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, running my own recruitment business myself.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't think I'd have it any other way.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I could go back to being an employee.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just let's just revert, let's just go back a little bit further then.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you guys were employed then, were you at the time when this bank came in and purchased the business that you're gonna be?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we were we were employed, and um, you know, the the the bank bought the the um financial advisory firm um out completely.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we were then um you know effectively employees of the bank.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um we were we were keen on ethical and environmental investment, but that the the bank really didn't have any plans for that, you know, or they were paying lip lip service to it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that was another sort of factor in our our thinking that they weren't really taking um what what what we were keen about, what we were keen on seriously.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, okay.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, so your employees, you came together, you had a bit of a whinge in the moan, you weren't keen on being taken over by this bank, you didn't want to feel like a cog in the wheel as you expressed.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: I understand your feelings.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can you can absolutely move on in life being stuck in this cog-in-the-wheel mode and and being quite quite quite resentful.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: But it takes a a certain somebody to step outside of that and then set their own business and and uh carve their own path, doesn't it?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned there about ethical investments though, being something of of interest to you then back in 2000 early 2000, by the sayings of it.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this was um 2003, yeah, yeah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the the the company before had um had had you know specialized in uh ethical and environmental investment, and it was something that we felt quite strongly about even then, even though a lot of people thought it was a bit odd and slightly you know quirky.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: However, you it was something that we believed in from um from from you know a relatively uh early stage in its development.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that that that was another thing which kind of drove our decision to to do our own thing.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: So were you running your own investment strategies around ethical investments, your own portfolios, or were you sort of tapping into others?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: We uh we were we were working quite closely with uh a couple of firms of stockbrokers who who had the same specialism.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we were, you know, we were just using a limited range of ethical funds really to put our own portfolios together.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, back in 2003, the the the universe of ethical and environmental funds was is was much smaller than it is is now.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, putting a portfolio together on the face of it was a relatively simple job because there weren't many uh alternatives to to choose from.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we I mean we yeah, we we we're quite proud of the fact, I guess, that it's it's something that has always been a big part of of what we do.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's something that really has has helped drive our uh development over the last 15 or 16 years.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always intrigued to understand as to why, because not every financial planner has that same sort of passion, if you like, or enthusiasm for ethical and now the more trendy impact investment opportunities.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: So what why was it so important to you that if you were to go and run and set your own business, that you were leading with ethical investment solutions for your clients?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I think it was twofold, really.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it was driven by the the fact that we believed in it as an investment opportunity in its own right.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: It always felt that if you can make money from you know wind and uh the sun, then why would you spend you know a fortune extracting it from the ground with all the environmental consequences that go with that?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we we thought it was just an uh an obvious investment opportunity.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it I guess it sounds a bit sort of um smug in a way now saying that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um it felt like the right thing to do.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was also the um the ethics of it.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I've always been interested in the environment.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I can remember you know being a member of Greenpeace when I was sort of 14.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's it's something that's always always interested me.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a couple of reasons behind it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Really, it was like we just thought it was an opportunity to make money, but also you know, the uh the whole ethical side of it, you know, being the right thing to do also uh also appealed to us.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: So clients at the time were were also asking about ethical investments, or were you using it almost as a a kind of unique selling point to how you were delivering financial planning?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: It we it was it was both.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was both.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh it was it's you know, some clients were you wouldn't wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole, but they wouldn't have touched it with tweezers.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, it was it was never going to be the right thing for them.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't particularly evangelical about it, we just offered it as an option.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it we, you know, it was there in the background.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we asked the questions whether people were interested in it, and you can always structure the questions in a way that could be you know pushing them down that that road, but ultimately we we we let clients sort of uh arrive at their own conclusions as to whether it was it was right for them.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, great stuff.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well let's just kind of go back to the the setting up of that business then, the mindset that you were in.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me, there's a very loud motorbike going part of the way.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I did like it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, not particularly ethical, perhaps it's a sign.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: So let's go back then to when you set that business up, okay?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because let's say someone's having a listen to this podcast now, perhaps they feel like a cog in the wheel, Stephen.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps they feel like they're undervalued, they're not adding the value they want, the proposition they're following, the company they're following isn't what they believe in.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: I get talking to these people all the time.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: You run your own financial planning business in central London, and obviously you help financial planners break away from that employed model or perhaps move from one company where they're self-employed where it's not quite right for them, and you're looking to help them come into your business and and grow with you.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: So uh what do you think?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: What when it comes to mindset around somebody uh about uh the changing from say employed to self-employed, uh what advice would you give somebody uh when they're thinking about making that transition from employed to self-employed?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: If if they're looking to set up their own business, what do you mean?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: So if they're looking to, so you've got the options, isn't it?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: You could either kind of be, let's say you're employed and you want to go, you want that independence, you want to you want to run your own business.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now the route you can kind of go down, isn't it?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: You could be self-employed.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you could be a self-employed registered individual, you could be a self-employed set up an AR firm and have your own branding.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: You could go direct, you could go directly authorized, okay, or that independence you're looking for in respect of your uh managing your own destiny when it comes to your recruitment.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: But each of those three routes, if you like, can be very different different and different levels of responsibility are required to do so.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone's sat there, they're employed, and you've got these ambitions, you've been there, you've done that, going back on yourself.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: What advice would you give that person to think about before they took the leap into one of those, say, three options?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I would say don't don't go into it lightly thinking that you're it's it's a it's a passport to um uh you know an an easier life.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to go into it thinking it's gonna be really hard work and you are gonna be, you know, living and breathing it, you know, 24 hours a day.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's there's you know, that's that's that's that's one thing to uh have at the front of your mind.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: The other the other thing is that you um are you know you're you're you're taking a risk, you're backing yourself.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you you're not gonna be relying on anyone else.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have the the the courage of your convictions, you've got you've got to be pretty clear about what you're what you're doing, what you're offering.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, you've you've got to be you've got to be very determined, and um you're gonna get a lot of knockbacks, you're gonna and a lot of things are gonna go wrong, but you're gonna have to um be prepared to to learn from them and um you know grow with your with with with with your business.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I I I I think probably uh you see a lot of stuff written about running your own business and you know, all these great entrepreneurs, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and perhaps some of them gloss over a bit on um, you know, how how hard it is to to run a business, you know, once you take on the responsibility of looking after other people, uh, you know, looking after other people's money, obviously, if you're a financial advisor.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's it's it's hard, but it's um it's it's incredibly rewarding because you are building something that is is is yours or you are a major part of.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the upsides clearly are the flexibility, but the the the the the the knowledge that you are you know part of something that um you are growing, and um you know it's it's it's it's your thing, or whoever else you are in in business with.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, I and I would say um a bit a bit of wisdom that was um imparted to me when uh we were we were setting up and I was I was asking people's advice.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I spoke to someone who'd run a few businesses himself, and um I just said to him, um, what's the one thing you would you would um say to me um just before we started?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Well, just don't spend too much time running the business.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that that is something that can easily happen.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can just get sucked into uh you know administration, um, building an infrastructure, but you've got to go out and uh and and and generate the income.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: If if you don't do that, if you get sucked into everything else too quickly, you're never gonna have a business.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that that was uh one sage piece of advice.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Don't spend too much time running the business.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing I would say is that um I recent I recently read a um uh an autobiography by the guy who started Nike, actually, which was uh it changed my perceptions of of Nike.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was it's it's just very kind of um warts and all about running a business and the how many mistakes you make and how close you are to the the the edge sometimes, you know.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that that would be a good book to read.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that the guy who oh so the guy who who set up Nike, so it was really rules or it wasn't this kind of perceptive idea that you set it up and it was all easy, it was hard and he was very close to the edge.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: He was yeah, he was close to going bankrupt several times, you know, there was last-minute finance deals, you know, things things not quite working when they were supposed to.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for the first couple of years, that's that's that's that's how it is.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, the you it's your it's your thing, you're you're growing, you're growing your own thing.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's incredibly, it's incredibly rewarding.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: But with that comes um, you know, the the responsibility and the fact that you know you can't you can't walk away from it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's this mis misconception as well, is it when you run your own business, you've got this lovely little lifestyle that you can lead and it's all you probably have more free time on your hands than you ever done.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um but actually there's that when you are employed, although you might think, oh god, you know, you might worry about losing your job or something like that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose there are fears and things associated, but you can walk away, close the door if you wanted to, and not have to think about things that a business owner has to think about.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes when in a business, it's on my mind 24-7.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: I had to do a lot of work around it, you know, I had to really let go of a few things, like fears and stuff around it, because it was like controlling me, you know.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: I was control trying to control it, trying to control people in it, because it was like I was fearful that it was going to collapse around me at any moment.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it and I realized that's the thing, yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: You you are you do live in a and that that's kind of what drives you to a certain extent.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: You are people sometimes say to me, Oh, you know, do you do you do you look and and feel you know really glad and um you know proud of what you've done?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the answer is, well, not really, because I'm you know, or we're worried that it could fall over any day and um it might go horribly wrong.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it um those things are always in the back of your mind.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: They they just are, and I think that's what drives a lot of a lot of businesses.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: So what would you say are the main things?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you're a directly authorized business, aren't you?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: So what would you say are the main things that kept you awake at night that perhaps you've now dealt with and you wish you knew sooner?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh those are the main things that's a that's a that's an interesting question.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um when you're in a um you're running your own financial advisory business.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um we you know, we we we invested in um a couple of things that were quite high risk early on.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean there were there were small, very small parts of client portfolios, and it was done in the the completely the the right way.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it was it was investments in renewable energy, and um, you know, the the clients knew the the risks and we you know we we put very small amounts of money into them, but you know, some of them didn't work out and um the clients were very understanding about it because they went into it with open ice, but you do you do worry about that sort of thing, you know, you feel bad about it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that you know there's there's there's that side of it of you know, fortunately, um touch wood, we've never had to to make people um redundant, so um, you know, that's that's that's that's something we haven't had to deal with, but we have had to make some difficult decisions on on people who haven't worked out for the the right reason.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's that's that's pretty uncomfortable.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um getting getting PI sometimes has uh has been a bit bit of a worry.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Getting PI cover, especially now, you know.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like that has been a few days where we've been thinking, well, you know, is is it are we are we gonna be alright here?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we've got much to to hide or um worry about really, but you you you can't help thinking, is it gonna be all right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, that's there's there's there's there's things like that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well there's a fair few things there, isn't there?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: When you talk about PI cover, have you ever thought about obviously PI cover is going up for you know for directly authorized firms, IFAs especially are fine, you know, feeling the pinch when it comes to to PI.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, has it ever sort of made you think directly authorized?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps I should just drop it and go go down the AR route, keep your brand and just let someone else do that for you?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it really, really important that you're directly authorized?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a necessity to be that way?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it comes down to uh, you know, it's in a way, it's what drives you is a similar thing to what drives you to set out your own business.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's about you know doing your own thing and um being responsible to yourself and your your your business partners and uh not having anyone else telling you what to do.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think if uh you know we have had thought about it, but you you're gonna lose, you're gonna compromise your independence, you know, you're gonna have to uh fall into line with uh with with with with someone else.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it you know, we're not gonna be able to move as quickly, we're gonna have to run things by by you know a different business.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's it's just it's just gonna have a big impact on on how we operate and what we're able to do and the service we'll be able to provide to our to our clients.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, it's it's it's important to us that we we maintain our um our independence.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you are a company that's been around for quite some time, and y I mean, how many are there of you in total, including employees?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think there um twenty eight of us, twenty nine of us, something like that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Twenty nine of you.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And how how many financial planners?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there's nine financial planners.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned there as well that kind of when perhaps the books aren't balancing great or there's certain worries and things coming in and you're thinking somebody's underperforming that you might have to make redundancies or you might have to get rid of somebody.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's never a a very comfortable conversation to have with anybody.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you wish everybody in your business can do well, but that's not that's not the case.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's part of growing a business, isn't it?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we learn a lot around the hiring process of the types of people that we take on.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, yeah.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Hard as we try, I think, in the interview stage, someone can absolutely nail an interview, can't they?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: You think they're God, I found the right guy here, or girl.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then so many months later, it's like, well, this is not the same person.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it becomes a real difficult sort of um process of trying to hire the right people.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: What's your sort of thoughts around that?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So if we think about growing your business, what kind of process do you take when it comes to hiring new financial planners, for instance?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: What what what do you do?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do a role play?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do you establish whether or not they're the right fit for your business?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a lot a lot of uh a lot, but the some of the people we've we've uh or the our younger financial advisors have kind of come through the business, so we know we know them.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, two of them have been a power planner with us, so we know what they're like.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um two others, it's a slightly different route, so they've they've they've been financial advisors elsewhere, and um, you know, you have to you have to interview them thoroughly, you have to get a range of people to to meet with them, so you're not just getting one or two opinions, so you've got to do role plays, you've got to try and you know delve into their background a bit, see what's you know driving them, what ambitions they have.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you've got to spend you've got to spend time with them to get to know them, really.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, um it's it's it's a it's a it's a group decision, but you are taking a bit of a gamble because you just don't know how it's gonna work out.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, you you you've got to you've got to you know do a a very thorough job, but it's never it's never totally guaranteed to to work out.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: So a role play would be a big part of it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and I I would be I I we would be getting them to meet um people at different levels in the business so that we get a variety of opinions on um on what that person is like and whether we we think they will fit in with uh the culture and what we're looking to to do as a business.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, uh in the news you see a lot about um, and I talk a lot about my podcast now, but about the advisor gap.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, not only is there an advice gap, but there's an advisor gap.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's going to be a fair few advisors leading the industry in the next five to ten years.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned two sort of routes there, where uh normally a financial planning firm would grow through almost like a mini acquisition.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: They'd look at another financial planner from another firm, what could they bring to the table?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: What clients could they bring?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that was historically how financial planning firms grew, just sort of taking experience financial planners.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Now a survey came out with Octopus, and it was like most financial planners now believe that they're going to have to be taking financial planners from other professions.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: So people that are qual, not let's say people who are level four qualified, but they're working in marketing, for example, and thinking, right, we need to be able to bring these guys into the profession and train them up to become financial planners.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or you've got the traditional route, which you know of, which is like administration into power planning, and you alluded to that there, that some of your planners have come through that sort of traditional ground route level training uh route, if you like.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: So what I'd really like to understand from your perspective is how do you feel about uh those are two those are two those those routes then?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've got uh less and less financial planners out there, so your pool of of attracting financial planners with experience gets less and less and less.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then you've got the other side, which is a the admin power planner financial advisor route, or you've got picking somebody that's level four qualified from another profession.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: What's your experience or you know, have you have you got uh hired that way in those three areas?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: So uh or have you always just focused on experience planners?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know you had some internal ones that you've hired up.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I guess the point that I'm trying to get here, because I'm what um I'm sort of uh wobbling on right now.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah do you see somebody coming through, say, admin power planner route as being as good as an experienced financial planner?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: That would be my first question.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think your your the the advantage of of of developing your your own is that you know you know them and they know the business and it's just it's comfortable.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you know you you go at your own pace, and um you know it's it's it's it's much less of a gamble.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got people in your business that want to go down the route of becoming an advisor, then I would um I would be I would be going down that route.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's you know you could you could take someone from a another another industry without experience, but I don't I don't see why you would be training them straight away to becoming an advisor if you've got people in your business who want to do that job already and know the know the industry, know the business, you know, have the exams already.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I I would, you know, we've got people who've changed careers, who've come into our our business, you know, as administrators, um, you know, as as junior investment people, and you know, they work their way up that way.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's that's kind of what we would do.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think I don't think we would just take someone who we feel is um potentially very good as an advisor, but doesn't really have any track record or means of of proving that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because you've got the likes of um St.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: James's Place, for example, even Quilter playing around with it with their advisor school, where it's not unusual for them now to do that is to take somebody from another profession, put them through the academy, and sit them underneath a partner practice, and then really fast track them straight into financial planning.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: And their excuse and their reason for that is they believe that the skills and attributes are transferable to becoming a planner, and not everybody needs to go down that admin route.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes some of the people that are coming across without experience, but the attributes of skills also have really good client uh access.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: So perhaps they've come from an environment where they are with high net worth individuals or they've built strong relationships with people that they could instantly sort of turn into clients.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's this kind of argument for fast tracking those types of people.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then you've got people that sit in the camp of right, well, yeah, if you're an administrator, you're learning it from grassroots level, you've got you're becoming a power planner and you're kind of going up that way.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: I see that route being really good for say somebody straight out of university, maybe a graduate, and then step and then they can see that.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a guy on the podcast um who went to Wrathbones um as an apprentice and at at 17, 16 years old, did a two-year apprenticeship there, 21 was level four qualified.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: He's only working as a client executive, like um like administrator stroke, sort of customer service type role within Wrathbones, but he's now chartered.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: He's got one exam away from a fellow and he's 23.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he's still not a financial planner.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I can see that route was perfect for him and he's learned everything along the way.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: But somebody who's like their job elsewhere have got loads of transferable skills, just aren't going to start at a level of like a 20K basic salary in the future because they're used to earning like 40, 50k.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I see there's this there is this gap there, you know, and I can see what SJP are doing and all of that, they're trying to fill it.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I wonder if it's as sort of open to the rest of the financial planning companies that are out there.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, we've got small to medium enterprises within the financial planning world, haven't we?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're not massive firms that can invest heavily in that time with training and development.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think that's the thing.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's um, you know, if you're St.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: James's place, you've you've got you know resources, you you you've got a you know a whole academy.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um with a business like ours, you are you have limited resources.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're if you're taking someone on who's got no experience, you know, how are you gonna look after that person for 18 months or however long it's gonna be?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: What are they gonna do that's gonna contribute to the business from from day one?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're gonna have to pay them uh you know a decent salary, and um, you know, you're gonna have to have um people looking after them really on a on a sort of full-time basis.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think you have to be a business of a certain size to um be able to offer that route.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you you know you can't just take someone on and then wonder what you're gonna do with them each day because they haven't got any experience.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so you know, I I could see perhaps that maybe you know you could you could have someone shadowing partners for for six months or so.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, I I just think it's it's got to be a um a properly structured program where there are dedicated people to to look after them, otherwise they're gonna feel you know like a bit of a spare part.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I it's it's a bit of a so I think you've got to be of quite a big business to offer that.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: There are certain types of trainers that are now coming out.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: There's a guy called Michael Pashley who's just created a practical investment planning qualification.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if someone's like level four qualified and um they don't have experience of the practical skills, so they've got the theory but not the practical skills.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you do this practical investment planning qualification, which is like the equivalent to a level six.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and you have like the the guys who check over all your work and everything like that, the examiners, like official examiners, uh about a hundred hours of work, but you uh you are sort of a test on your practical skills in a role play scenario.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: So and all of that's like videoed and everything.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, when you kind of get it and you pass it, you get given this sort of pack and it shows everything.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if you almost went to an employer and said, look, I'm ready to become a financial planner, I'm gonna take away some of the uh the training needs from you guys.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Here's my evidence up to level six that I've delivered practical, structured financial planning and I understand what these individual things are.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think that type of thing helped close that gap.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: But also that sort of stuff can be then used towards cash data to help speed that process up.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there has to be something done because I think like firms of your size, where you know, it's it's difficult, isn't it?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: How are you supposed to take on like people like that?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: You you're gonna you're gonna struggle.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose historically the banks would have done all that, wouldn't they?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: They'd have trained themselves.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they yeah, they they would have done, you know, people people came a lot of a directly have uh have have come through through banks.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I look around and um the people we've we've got in our business, and uh yeah, I I think probably the majority of them have um have started in some sort of administrative capacity somewhere.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they've got a foot in the door somewhere and they've they've kind of they've kind of gone from there.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which I think when I speak to a lot of people who've done that and they've and they've made quite, you know, they've they've been quite successful.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and we work with financial planning firms to sort of suggest that and create a trainee route that way.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: So start them off as admin, move them into power planning, but with the promise of becoming financial planners within a specific time frame as opposed to just kind of then you've got the argument when they're decent power planners and no one wants to remove a decent power planner.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's that's difficult as well.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you have to yeah, you have to strike a a balance really and be quite clear about what the uh expectations are on um on both sides.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so yeah, I think there is a there's a there's a middle ground.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you know you can spend a few years being a power planner and um working in an advisor team, so you're being past clients, but also doing some of the power planning work as well.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there is there is a middle ground.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think it necessarily has to be one or the other straight away.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but you know, there's there's definitely different alternatives um for training and and progressing people.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it I think you know it would it would be like um you know retraining to become an accountant or a solicitor or something.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think a lot of uh you know it it would be a big stretch for a lot of accountancy firms to just put someone through an academy um on a high salary.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's the same thing in a lot of uh a lot of a lot of sectors, yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, solicitors as well, you know, and that's the thing that's missing.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's not being, you know, it's only recently being considered a profession, really, isn't it?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's I think I I think over uh time will tell there'll be structure to how you can go from uni to becoming a financial planner, and that's the thing that will start that will start.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's that's the that is still a bit of an issue um for for firms and the industry.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's it's it's taking people from university and and how you do that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I mean it it's it has changed though noticeably over the last few years for for us and other firms.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's there's you know, we see very good candidates now.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: You you just do there's no shortage of decent, decent candidates.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, especially around that level.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just talk about some of the things.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're running your own business, you've got a million and one hats to wear.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: You you sort of alluded to that in the very beginning.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: And there's it's very easy to get sucked into the things that take up your time, but add don't add any um any income to your business.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: So what what are you doing to generate new business?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what did you do to generate new business?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because I speak to a lot of financial planners, and a lot of them can dawdle, they can waste a lot of time, they can procrastinate on social media.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: But what's your advice about getting business on the board?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I um yeah, well, this this is kind of um pre pre-pandemic, but um you've got to just get out there and um put your uh put your face about, really, and um, you know, meet and greet people.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I when when we started, I I did, you know, I I spent I got up early, went to business breakfasts, you know, um chatted, I chatted to a lot of people about what we were doing, and people were quite interested in it.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we said with we're starting up our own business, you know, it's gonna specialise in um ethical and environmental investment, we've come from this background, da da da da, and people actually wanted to support you.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you've got to uh you've got to have a bit of a a story and then be prepared to to to go out there and and and and tell it.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And people actually are are quite supportive of uh new enterprises, you know, you've you've you've you'd be surprised.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I I and some of it just happens by um by pure chance.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I can remember going to um someone someone's leaving do um who worked at a law firm and I got chatting to to people there, and one of them happened to be a finance director of a firm of accountants, and um, you know, I went out for coffee with him a couple of times, and all of a sudden he was becoming a client, he was passing clients to us.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just things like that, you know, just kind of happen if you're prepared to to put the effort in.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I you you can't, you know, so there's another cliche, but you can't just sit at your desk expecting it to turn up because it's it's it's not going to happen.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um now I I you know you it's it's it's I guess it's a double-edged sword, but you've got social media, you know, you can get your your your your presence and face out on on online, which is um, you know, it's a big it's a big opportunity.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously there's a lot of people trying to do that as well.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think I don't think there's any substitute for just going out and meeting people and talking to them about what you're what you're doing and and building a relationship with them that way.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you need to focus on you know a handful of people who you think might might give you a lead in somewhere or provide you with you know referrals.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that that would be a word of word of advice.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's all very well having you know big ideas about you know creating some massive you know online presence, but the reality of that is it's it's extremely difficult.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think you can go down you can go down a bit of a black hole when it comes to social media trust.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think you can and you can spend a lot of money doing it as well.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can, and it yeah, it's really is um sort of um hit and miss.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think in this, especially with um you know our profession, people still buy people.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh ultimately that's that's what happens if people trust you and like you, like talking to you, like spending time with you, you know, the chances are they'll they'll do business with you.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: So no, that's it, really.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Makes makes total sense.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing that always comes up with me as well, and think in my head if I was a financial planner, would I be going out and trying to win clients, first of all, or would I be trying to go out and generate referral relationships?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because some of the most successful financial planners that I've spoken to have got like rough opportunities for referrals at the highest level, you know, and they they're well connected with accountants solicitors, but I don't know, that's like a very traditional route, isn't it?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Especially around private client, I suppose.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and it's hard, it's hard, it's a hard route as well.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to put a lot of effort into cultivating those relationships, and you're gonna be competing with others, you know, you're gonna be competing with other firms.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I I will I I would be I would I I would be doing both.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I wouldn't back you know one one route or or another, really.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if you've got something you are interested in um or a link into to some specific field, then I think that's worth concentrating on, like a different profession or or or a niche, something something like that.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it could be um you know doctors, um, it could be it could be dentists, you know, it could be anything like that.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've got some route into a different profession, I I think that's worth uh looking at as well.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and you've got to be prepared to ask for referrals.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: You just can't be you can't be shy about it.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think what you mentioned there about the niche specialism as well, and a niche interest in something, because traditionally it was always like while we work with accountants, we work with solicitors, you were sort of very early on a doctor in the in respect of the ethical space.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that was your that was your interest.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we could go into a room and you could talk about something that people probably weren't talking about being.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was very forward-thinking, so it was very niche, it was very interesting, and and uh also you're appealing to somebody's side, aren't you?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: So there's uh some people are going to be either uh very into ethical or even against it, but at least you got the opportunity to challenge their thought process around it, right?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And outsway them otherwise.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And people like that.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's the same thing over and over again.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: If if I was an accountant and I didn't, you know, I had a financial planner this week asking me for referrals, and it was the same kind of approach.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's boring, isn't it?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the financial planners that I know now, like their niches are footballers, you know, so they work with football agents, and that's where they get the referrals from.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then from those they get entertainers, so they work in the entertainment market, so they start to branch out that way.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: I know people that focus purely on um startup businesses in the ethical space, for example.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep, yeah, yeah.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm starting, it's really interesting.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm starting a company called Down to Earth, which is um a recruitment company that specializes in in um renewable energy, so low, low energy renewable energy uh technology.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: And um I mean that, you know, some of the people we talk to are ridiculously well-fitted.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like there's some amazing money going around that space, isn't there?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, and it's about understanding those individual little needs.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Another girl I know who was from the fashion background, so she deals with a lot of high-end fashion designers and buyers and you know at the top level.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: But because you worked in fashion, you can talk the game, you know?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's about understanding what your strengths are and not just thinking about accountants and solicitors, but also kind of well, what can I bring to the table?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then that kind of also brings you onto your own personal brand and your branding now with social media being so accessible, and you can just literally position yourself as an expert within a micro niche, connect with people instantly.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to go and sit in a room and have breakfast with them.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Bang, you know, you're you're you're in front of people talking about things you enjoy and you're being picked up and and and people are recognizing, and referrals should hopefully come in.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think with that sort of thing, anyway, that space, you have to keep on plodding at it, don't you?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just sort of put it out there and hope it's gonna come back to you.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you've got to be relentless about it.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can't just put it out there and think that's it.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh you you've got to you've got to be focused and um you know, you've got to be on it all the time.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: What's your plans then?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: So over the next sort of five to ten years, have you got a plan of action?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Are you looking to take your company to a hundred people?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or what's your have you got any goals?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you set many goals or yeah, we we we we we set goals?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know we we um had to readjust those um over the last year, but um yeah, fortunately we we've we've got through that so far, so so so good.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, we we are looking to grow our our our business, you know, we're looking to take on advisors, um, especially with a with a with a client following.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're a B Corp, so we're we're looking to work work with that.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we're you know, we're we're we've got a pedigree in ethical and environmental investments, so we're we're looking at our our marketing at the moment to sort to sort of to really um look at ways of uh of of reinforcing that and um you know putting the putting the message out there because um you know there's a lot of um sort of new new players in the in the field, but I think we've got something different and um compelling to to say.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, a big a big thrust of what we're doing over the next few years is is really sort of um building our um presence because we we've done quite a lot of um internal reorganisation over the last year to to make ourselves more efficient and um you know, over the next couple of years that the push is going to be on um you know expanding the expanding the business.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think um one thing I would definitely do from the outside looking in obviously being running a recruitment company I focus a lot of time on looking at businesses and I'm looking at from the outside you might not look at your competitors as much as I do.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I look at so I did a I did a I did a search on ethical and impact investment uh planning financial planning and obviously you had a I contacted you didn't I because I had a candidate I thought would be a good fit for you.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: So there's only a handful of you there's like there was only a few of you and some of the ones that I've spoken to are doing very little around marketing but they're leading they're leading with that ethical approach or impact approach.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh when you say you're looking to grow your business I did the podcast with the Path recently um and they're a uh an impact focus financial planning firm purely impact focused yeah I've uh I've heard of them yeah yeah but that podcast alone generates so much inbound interest from financial planners wanting to be part of it because they they want to be part of a firm that has that ethos as well and there isn't a great deal of you out there.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think building your business with at the forefront being ethical and impact and talking about it putting content out there religiously it won't take much because there isn't many people in your space doing it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: No no well it's um you can dominate that niche really quickly yeah it's um it's it's something that we are you know very very mindful of and um it's it's it's we're we're looking to um work closely with um you know a marketing professional so there's there's there's there's stuff in the background going on which hopefully is going to help sort of take us to to the next level yeah fabulous because from the outside again from the outside looking in if you're going into that space and that's your focus then then crikey you're you should you should be in a good place because I think people are waking up to that the impact that their investments are having on the world.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well there's a there's a lot of stuff going on at the moment you know people uh um being encouraged to look at what's in their their their pensions you know there's there's there's obviously joe biden being elected in the United States I think has has has made everyone sort of more optimistic about you know what's what's going on with climate change etc etc so um you know the the the whole sector is is is is is is moving forward all the time you know there's there's there's 15 years ago we were considered to be a bit of a uh an oddball really in some ways but you know now it's it's it's you're an oddball if you don't think about it I think so it's kind of turned on its head.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: No absolutely and um I think as people say 27 times more effective than any other kind of carbon reducing structure if you can if you just reform if you just restructure your pension plan.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah you know we we yeah and I I think we're we're quite proud of some of the things that we we our clients supported um you know in relatively early days.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know these these things are have been up for a long time producing renewable energy.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know they're they they're they're part of you know this this country's um you know energy infrastructure um you know this this country now I think has um has has has decarbonised more of its um its it's its grid faster than any other country in the world so you know in our own way we've played a small part in that because there was a time when when banks weren't funding those types of uh um you know enterprises and and and and startups so um you know you know we had some clients who um you know wanted to to to support that kind of thing so you know it's um it's it it it has been um you know a an exhilarating journey in some ways yeah all right fantastic so just my final question really because I'm always interested to know how many of your clients then so how much we got under management about 250 million is that right no it's near a 500 million yeah okay there you go that's the most recent bit I saw 250 so might want to take that down um so 500 million so it's yeah it's I it's always difficult whether it's you know whether you're saying under advice or under under management so altogether under under influence or how it's about 500 million yeah about 500 million and so how much of that is is invested in ethical as opposed to not um good question I think is about 40% of it is invested in ethical but it's it's growing a lot at the moment we're finding a lot of clients are switching their portfolios from um from ethical or from conventional to to ethical and um we we've we've had we're having debates in business about whether we want to you know encourage all clients to to to go down that route you know more more emphatically because we you know we think it's the right thing to do.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good conversational piece though isn't it to have with existing clients and it's only gonna it's only going to go up isn't it really that's well and you know with the new regulations um uh around you know reporting and and and MIFID um it's it's it's something that you've got to discuss with clients yeah absolutely well Stephen it's a busy time of the year for you um lots to do lots of clients to see so I don't want to take any more of your time but I am really thankful for your time today just to learn a little bit more about your business and your career so far.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I really appreciate it.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: No it's nice to um nice to talk to you Sam.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you um you know want to catch up at any point in the in the future then you know where I am.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Great sounds amazing.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: Stephen thank you so much for your time to make uh today and um take care.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Cheers.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Cheers Sam thanks