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Joshua, America, and the Myth of Innocence: Undoing Manifest Destiny (Daniel Hawk) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
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  Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world
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  Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
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  Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I
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  Speaker 1: am joined today by doctor Daniel Hawk. He is a
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  Speaker 1: professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Ashland Theological Seminary,
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  Speaker 1: and he's the author of a new book called Undoing
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  Speaker 1: Manifest Destiny, Settler America, Christian Colonists, and the Pursuit of Justice.
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  Speaker 1: And so today we're going to be talking about a
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  Speaker 1: lot of the concepts from the book and hopefully introducing
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  Speaker 1: you to some different ways of thinking about what it
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  Speaker 1: looks like to be a Christian in America, but maybe
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  Speaker 1: also a Christian anywhere else. So, uh, Dan, welcome to
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  Speaker 1: the program. It was really great to be here. I'm
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  Speaker 1: glad we can make this happen.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for your interest in the book.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I mentioned, I'd had a couple of other
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  Speaker 1: sets of authors on on these very similar topics I think,
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  Speaker 1: you know, not necessarily straight on similar, but the guys
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  Speaker 1: who wrote Reading the Bible from Turtle Island, and then
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  Speaker 1: Terry Wildman on who's doing some of the Native American
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  Speaker 1: translations the New Testament, and so this is becoming.
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  Speaker 3: A really interesting area.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, I was drawn to this work and I'm
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  Speaker 1: finding these these uh, these new topic areas really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: I guess I'm my first question for you would be
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  Speaker 1: what what drew you into this book? You're kind of
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  Speaker 1: a you're an Old Testament guy. What what drew you
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  Speaker 1: into this, uh, this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's been a long journey, and uh it
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  Speaker 2: started earlier in my career. I did some work in
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  Speaker 2: the Book of Joshua that was well received, and I
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  Speaker 2: had some colleagues challenged me not to just keep it
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  Speaker 2: within the Ivory Tower, so to speak, but to think
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  Speaker 2: about how my work on Joshua might impact Christian mission
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  Speaker 2: and related topics. So I took that to heart and
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  Speaker 2: I thought, well, you know, what would Joshua have to
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  Speaker 2: say to the United States, And immediately this kind of
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  Speaker 2: parallel conquest narrative shows up. I mean, so Joshua's Israel's
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  Speaker 2: conquest narrative. Joshua tells how and why Israel got the land,
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  Speaker 2: took the land, and took it away from the indigenous
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  Speaker 2: inhabitants under the command of God and with God's help
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  Speaker 2: and the help of the Holy Spirit, and our national
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  Speaker 2: mythology tells very much the same kind his story in
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  Speaker 2: one way or another. We were empowered by and called
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  Speaker 2: by God to establish a new nation, and we did
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  Speaker 2: that by dispossessing the people who were already here. And
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  Speaker 2: so that got me going, and that got me into
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  Speaker 2: reading a lot of American history on indigenous settler relationships,
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  Speaker 2: and it just kind of boy, the more I read,
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  Speaker 2: the more I thought, Man, this is this is really
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  Speaker 2: hard stuff, and we're not We're not. And I don't
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  Speaker 2: know that we've ever talked about it, either as Christians
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  Speaker 2: or as a nation. I mean, to the extent that
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  Speaker 2: it really deserves to be talked about. So long story short,
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  Speaker 2: I started I started speaking on this as kind of
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  Speaker 2: an advocation and went to some conferences met some folks,
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  Speaker 2: met indigenous scholars, and became developed some good and lasting frendship.
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  Speaker 2: It's like with Terry Wildman. I'm working with him right now.
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  Speaker 2: He invited me into talk on the Translation Council. We're
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  Speaker 2: working on genesistic genesis through Second Kings right now. So
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  Speaker 2: a lot of funastic. So I wrote a book about
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  Speaker 2: fifteen years ago called Joshua three D. And I just
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  Speaker 2: started writing on this topic. And I was at IVP
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  Speaker 2: a couple of couple of summers ago and just noticed
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  Speaker 2: that they were publishing a lot of works along this line.
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  Speaker 2: So I pitched the book and they said yes, And
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  Speaker 2: so I wrote it.
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  Speaker 1: For people who may not be as aware of the
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  Speaker 1: Joshua narrative. Why don't you give a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: a thumbnail sketch. I don't expect you to give the whole,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the whole message of your book, but help
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  Speaker 1: people understand and frame sort of how you're approaching this
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  Speaker 1: work through the lens of what of your work on Joshua.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so one of the things I would say
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  Speaker 2: about the Book of Joshua is it's a book that
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  Speaker 2: establishes Israelite identity, and it there's there's a real there's
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  Speaker 2: there's a real fusion of history and identity. Every iteration,
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  Speaker 2: every expression of our past as a nation, whether ancient
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  Speaker 2: or modern, is an active identity formation. Narratives tell us
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  Speaker 2: who we are and what distinguishes us from every other nation,
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  Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So in Joshua, Joshua
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  Speaker 2: is in a sense the culmination of the promise that
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  Speaker 2: God makes to Abram in Genesis chapter twelve. You know,
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  Speaker 2: you leave your your family and your kindred go to
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  Speaker 2: the place that I will show you. And so Israel
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  Speaker 2: enters the land called by God to do so, and
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  Speaker 2: in obedience. So it enters the land in obedience to
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  Speaker 2: a divine, divine call and in fulfillment and from God's perspective,
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  Speaker 2: in fulfillment to promises. And they go in there, and
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  Speaker 2: God says, I'll do the fighting for you, and I
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  Speaker 2: will defeat the indigenous peoples. And your job is basically
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  Speaker 2: to settle and finish that operation. Settle and make sure
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  Speaker 2: that they don't contaminate you in any way or lead
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  Speaker 2: you away from God. And so there's it's a narrative
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  Speaker 2: that just talks about how God basically made Israel an
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  Speaker 2: invincible force that expelled all the peoples of the land,
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  Speaker 2: and then Israel settled it and they mark their settlement
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  Speaker 2: with monuments here and there. So when you put that
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  Speaker 2: against the way we talk about as Americans, this is
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  Speaker 2: our story. We are an exceptional nation. We are a
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  Speaker 2: nation that has been chosen by God or by virtue
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  Speaker 2: of just our unique sensibility and kind of the progress
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  Speaker 2: of civilization. We came here under a transcendent impulse. I
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  Speaker 2: should say the first English colonists came here under an
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  Speaker 2: impulse that was greater than they were themselves. And so
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  Speaker 2: for those who take a Christian view of that, God
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  Speaker 2: enabled the earliest English settlers to overcome the peoples of
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  Speaker 2: the land and just push steadily westward. And so there's
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  Speaker 2: the same pattern in a sense, wiping out and dispossessing
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  Speaker 2: the indigenous people. And then here we look at all
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  Speaker 2: the monuments we put up to ourselves and all the
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  Speaker 2: ways that we remember, because that's what monuments are. They're
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  Speaker 2: they're part of the catechetical structure that teaches us about
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  Speaker 2: who we are as a nation. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Interesting the parallels, and I think, just to make sure
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  Speaker 1: I'm understanding and clarifying as we read the biblical narrative,
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  Speaker 1: we're seeing this and this is obviously in you know,
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  Speaker 1: authoritative scripture, and so we're understanding this is something that's
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  Speaker 1: been passed down to us as a as a faithful
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  Speaker 1: rendering of the story of God in Israel versus Maybe
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  Speaker 1: the difference between the story that we tell about America
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  Speaker 1: it's founding. And we do have these other Old Testament
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  Speaker 1: analogs as well along the way where you could sort
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  Speaker 1: of see parallels between what is happening with the Mayoramerica
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  Speaker 1: tying God into the fate of our nation in ways
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  Speaker 1: that would seem to underwrite basically whatever we want to
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  Speaker 1: do versus God saying no, you know, you've done this,
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  Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that I, you know, I find
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  Speaker 1: it legitimate. I mean I look at some of those
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  Speaker 1: like even Babylon, you know, Nebukanezer is called God's servant,
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  Speaker 1: and yet the way that Babylon is going to treat
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  Speaker 1: the Israelites is going to bring punishment upon Babylon. And
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  Speaker 1: so there's there's this real intricate line I think that
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  Speaker 1: that we draw between Maybe this is my question for you.
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  Speaker 1: I guess when I read the Old Testament It's like, yes,
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  Speaker 1: God's moving the nations about, right, but it doesn't necessarily
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  Speaker 1: mean that he's authorizing everything that they're doing. It simply
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  Speaker 1: means that he needs this displaced and this moved in.
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  Speaker 1: But the way that that's done can be deeply problematic
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  Speaker 1: and outside of what God would really want to have
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  Speaker 1: had happen. Am I am I close on that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm resonating with a lot of what you said there.
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  Speaker 2: I would put it this way, The Book of Joshua
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  Speaker 2: is not a template. It is it is a one time.
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  Speaker 2: It is a remembrance of the past in which God,
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  Speaker 2: through God's power and in faithfulness to God's promises, established
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  Speaker 2: the nation of Israel in a homeland where they could
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  Speaker 2: bear witness to this, this God who had delivered them
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  Speaker 2: from from bondage in Egypt and had brought them into
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  Speaker 2: a good in verdant land. So when we read texts
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  Speaker 2: like this as a as a template, okay, so that means, okay,
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  Speaker 2: this is our pattern, so so that let's do it,
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  Speaker 2: it is I think profound. It is a profound misunderstanding
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  Speaker 2: gotcha of both understanding what this scripture does and how
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  Speaker 2: it is to shape Christian life and faith.
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  Speaker 3: That's helpful.
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  Speaker 1: So let me now pivot because I think this will
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  Speaker 1: connect in the book you talk about wanting to I
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  Speaker 1: don't think these are your words, but unwinding the settler
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  Speaker 1: narrative sort of challenge the settler narrative, And so can
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  Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what that means. I
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  Speaker 1: assume it has something to do with this sort of templating,
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  Speaker 1: pulling the template over and saying we're going to do this.
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  Speaker 3: But what does that look like now for us to
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  Speaker 3: unwind that settler narrative?
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's that's the central question. Yeah, So beginning of
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  Speaker 2: Jamestown and Plymouth, Boston, New England, the Christian settlers who
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  Speaker 2: came first to these shores came with with the belief
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  Speaker 2: that that God had had brought them to this place.
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  Speaker 2: And simply speaking, they developed a whole set of of
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  Speaker 2: precedents and patterns and perspectives in relationship to the people
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  Speaker 2: who were already here. And they they had in mind,
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  Speaker 2: for various reasons, this belief that God has given us
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  Speaker 2: this land and we need to go in and occupy it.
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  Speaker 2: And as they did, they did some pretty atrocious and
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  Speaker 2: I would say sinful things. So there's there's this bit
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  Speaker 2: of sin that's at the root of our story as
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  Speaker 2: as a Christian people in this nation and as as
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  Speaker 2: a nation itself. There there is a script I mean,
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  Speaker 2: and this is from the very earliest within in in
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  Speaker 2: the case of Plymouth, within two years of the founding
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  Speaker 2: of Plymouth, there are some atrocities, preemptive strikes, treachery on
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  Speaker 2: the part of these English settlers who bore the name
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  Speaker 2: of Christ, but found a way to justify what they did.
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  Speaker 2: And as this script in a sense developed and replicated
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  Speaker 2: and revised and expanded as this nation expanded westward, there
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  Speaker 2: were just some really atrocious things that we did. And
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  Speaker 2: what we did as well was that we justified that
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  Speaker 2: with a myth of innocence. So everything that we did
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  Speaker 2: in a way had a had an explanation that we
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  Speaker 2: could reconcile with our values or with our Christian beliefs.
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  Speaker 2: I'm saying ours. I'm talking about out the white settlers,
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  Speaker 2: who colonists, who came here. So this colonial enterprise UH
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  Speaker 2: established structures social, economic, political structures for the benefit which
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  Speaker 2: which the colonists constructed for their benefit, and those structures
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  Speaker 2: have never been really addressed. They were built on kind
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  Speaker 2: of unequal relationships with with the peoples of the land
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  Speaker 2: and other people so that we could gain dominion as
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  Speaker 2: white Christians. Uh. But the the key point here is
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  Speaker 2: that they've never really been challenged. And the way to
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  Speaker 2: challenge that's those structures and to begin the process of healing.
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  Speaker 2: We're not doing this just to be angry and bash,
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  Speaker 2: you know, break shame, you know, shame and blame this
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  Speaker 2: if if you don't knowledge your sin, we all know
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  Speaker 2: what it does. Sin just doesn't fade away. If we
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  Speaker 2: don't acknowledge it and confess it and begin to turn
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  Speaker 2: in a different way, it's just going to fester. And
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  Speaker 2: so what this nation has done is created a myth
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  Speaker 2: of innocence that in a sense explains the structures and
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  Speaker 2: inequities that we have in those structures, so that to
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  Speaker 2: challenge the structure, you've got to challenge the narrative that
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  Speaker 2: justifies it first. And when you do that, then you
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  Speaker 2: take the you take the you know, the foundation away
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  Speaker 2: from kind of saying, well, you know, everything we did
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  Speaker 2: was good, and you begin to bring to the surface
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  Speaker 2: things that as as I hear people tell me often
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  Speaker 2: when I go to speak, I never heard that before
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  Speaker 2: I had no idea. Well, there's a good reason we didn't.
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  Speaker 2: We wanted to keep it covered because that's important. So
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  Speaker 2: the last piece, I would say this, this, this bears
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  Speaker 2: connection into the present day. Those structures are still here,
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  Speaker 2: and so I would propose that much of the violence
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  Speaker 2: that wrecks our nation, the kind of the love of guns,
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  Speaker 2: the racial strife, all of that is rooted in paradigms
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  Speaker 2: and a script that was established during the earliest colonial
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  Speaker 2: times and has gone all the way. It's still here,
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  Speaker 2: and it damages It damages us. It damages us as
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  Speaker 2: a nation. It continues to not address justice that has
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  Speaker 2: long been denied to our our indigenous sisters and brothers.
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  Speaker 2: And it's I believe the love of Christ compels us
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  Speaker 2: and and our our identity as ministers of reconciliation compels
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  Speaker 2: us to address this. It's time, It's it's way past time.
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  Speaker 1: I think what struck me when I was reading your book,
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  Speaker 1: and then also just some of the other things that
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  Speaker 1: I've looked at, is the what I'll call the construction
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  Speaker 1: of a civil religion. I think that the co opting,
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  Speaker 1: for instance, of the Exodus narrative, the framing of the
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  Speaker 1: British as the tyrants and the colonists as the escaping Israelites.
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  Speaker 1: Is a perversion of that narrative because the way it
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  Speaker 1: was used was, yes, we need political liberations so we
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  Speaker 1: can live how we'd like to. But in the Old Testament,
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  Speaker 1: that's not what it is. It's a it's a liberation
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  Speaker 1: has political you know, there is a political change of
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  Speaker 1: the orders, but that change of order doesn't mean that
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  Speaker 1: we get to live how we want to. It means
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  Speaker 1: that we live under the rule of God, not as
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  Speaker 1: our sovereign, and that these are the laws that Israel
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  Speaker 1: was to follow. In those kind of things, I think
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  Speaker 1: that aspect of the narrative is conveniently left out. And
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  Speaker 1: so as I was reading your book, I said, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of the parallels that you're highlighting
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  Speaker 1: and saying they these are given enough religious language to
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  Speaker 1: justify what's happening, but not so much that it critiques
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  Speaker 1: what's happening. It always stays right there on the line
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  Speaker 1: of this legitimates what I'm doing, But I don't want
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  Speaker 1: the Bible to speak against what I'm doing. I just
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  Speaker 1: wanted to say it's okay, what I'm doing is that
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  Speaker 1: a fair assessment, just sort of broad strokes of the
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  Speaker 1: things you found.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that that puts it puts
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  Speaker 2: it well. I think part of the genius of our
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  Speaker 2: our founding fathers on this particular issue is that they
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  Speaker 2: they realize and held very tightly to this idea that
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  Speaker 2: religion is absolutely central for a healthy society. But they
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  Speaker 2: also were aware, and many of them have had come
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  Speaker 2: out of places where religion had become toxic. Christianity had
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  Speaker 2: become toxic, so they knew what could happen. So what
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  Speaker 2: they did, quite intentionally was to develop this idea that
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  Speaker 2: many call a civic religion. And they did that as
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  Speaker 2: other nationalizing groups were doing at the time, to give
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  Speaker 2: a sense of transcendence that could unite a lot of
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  Speaker 2: thirteen squabbling, bickering states into one nation, a United States.
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  Speaker 2: And so they needed religion to do that, and so
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  Speaker 2: they they transferred a lot of the Christian symbols, So
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  Speaker 2: you know, the Pilgrims, the Puritans err and into the
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  Speaker 2: wilderness became this kind of national mission. Salvation from sin
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  Speaker 2: became salvation from tyranny, and so on and so forth,
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  Speaker 2: and so Anthony D. Smith, who's written a lot on this,
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  Speaker 2: I think really helpfully, especially a book called Chosen Peoples
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  Speaker 2: talks about how these nationalizing movements like the United States
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  Speaker 2: basically concocted and alternative religion. So and and and if
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  Speaker 2: you think about it, I mean, our our our kind
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  Speaker 2: of national civil religion acts just like a religion. We
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  Speaker 2: have holy days, we have we have our own scriptures
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  Speaker 2: in the constitution, so on and so forth. We use
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  Speaker 2: a lot of the language of the sacred when we
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  Speaker 2: talk about our nations. So anyway, all to say, yes
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  Speaker 2: and amen, I think I think you really you really
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  Speaker 2: hit it.
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  Speaker 3: A little.
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  Speaker 2: Religion.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it just strikes me that there's so much of
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  Speaker 1: that across what you've written, And so I wanted to
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  Speaker 1: bring it out for folks as you challenge this setlar narrative,
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  Speaker 1: What do you think comes of it? You talked about
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  Speaker 1: some of the structures. Maybe it'd be good to give
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  Speaker 1: a couple of examples of those structures. When I was
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  Speaker 1: when I when you were just saying in earlier, what
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  Speaker 1: my mind went to was a particularly enduring or durable
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  Speaker 1: set of systemic sin and so almost like if if
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  Speaker 1: we made it a rule that none of us could
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  Speaker 1: wear clothes outdoors. That's going to have a durable effect,
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  Speaker 1: an ongoing effect on our livelihoods no matter how you
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  Speaker 1: slice it right right, And so when we say it
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  Speaker 1: like that, that maybe that gives people enough of a
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  Speaker 1: context to say, oh, okay, I could see how that
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  Speaker 1: would work.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 1: The last place I want to be put is you know,
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  Speaker 1: out in a tent somewhere and think that somebody's going
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  Speaker 1: to you know that.
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to survive, Promise you I won't.
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  Speaker 1: And so there are different structures that we can envision
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  Speaker 1: in our own minds having difficulty living within. Is that
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  Speaker 1: the sort of idea that you're trying to convey with that,
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  Speaker 1: that that structural problem the structures that were put in
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  Speaker 1: place in the colonial times that are now still causing problems.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Colonialism is all colonists set up a structure where
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  Speaker 2: where they have dominion and everybody else has to kind
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  Speaker 2: of live under their their power and their their leadership
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  Speaker 2: and their tied to the land. So one of the
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  Speaker 2: really earliest expressions of this is that the Puritans when
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: they came here, uh, they they really strongly gravitated towards
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: the creation mandate, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Read Genesis to Adam till's the ground. So when they
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: looked around at this, this pagan landscape, this wild place,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: this wilderness. Uh. And they looked at some of the
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: customs of the people which they were not christ They
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: were not Christian, right, and they just viewed as satanic.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And the fact that that indigenous people of the area
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: didn't own property, I mean they they they moved in
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: ways that sustained them based on the season where they were,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: so they would plant crops and harvest and in the
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: fall then would go on winter hunts and so on
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: and so forth. And when the Pilgrims looked at this,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: they said, boy, this is this is exactly what we
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: were sent to rectify. These people are not fulfilling the
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: basic mandate that God gave to all human beings on creation.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And from the English perspective this the colonial perspective meant, okay, uh.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: The way you do this and for faithfully fulfill this
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: command is you order the land, you fence it off, you,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: you make it into private property. You put domestic animals
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: in there instead of wild animals. All these things, and
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: and and so. As they expanded and got more territory.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: They they in a sense justified what they were doing
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: and and in some pretty deceptive and violent ways to
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: deprive people of the land. They you know, they exerted
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: their own dominion and and they really didn't question whether
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: they were right or wrong, whether their interpretation was appropriate
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: or not. There was just this certitude, this is what
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: God has given us to do. These people are not obeying.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So that so in a sense they're less than Christians.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: So our you know, our kind of mandate toward them
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: is to take care of them, lead them to christ
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: later on that began to civilize them, make us assimilate
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: them into two white Anglo Saxon culture in the in
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the nineteenth century. So it's it's this kind of idea
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: that that the the the English colonists who came here
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: had a very clear sense of what Christianity looked like
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: and what they were to do, and that was to
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the detriment of the indigenous people who they really whose
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: cultures they did not respect. They were savage and primitive
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So it was all
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: kind of a matter of and you see this all
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: the way through the early twentieth century. This idea that
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: land is to be developed and or as appearance that
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: improved proved. So here we are. Here, we are in
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: the twenty first century, and we've commodified the land. The
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: land is something to be exploited to enriched, drill, drilled drill,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: And we're still in this mode of saying the whole
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: purpose of land is to enrich us and fulfill us
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: in some way, rather than perhaps understanding a different relationship
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: to creation and a different interpretation of the Bible and
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: the Genesis text that said we are stewards of the land.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: We are caretakers. The land sustains us. And that's where
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: the fact that we have refused to listen to indigenous
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: peoples give us a different perspective that might change us.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: We just we've been in charge as white people and
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: we don't need to listen to them because their ideas
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: are not as advanced and sublime and christian as ours.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So let me ask this because because I think, as
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: I think about that understanding of it the way you
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: just explained it, one of the questions and sort of
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: pinging around on my head is it doesn't feel like
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: this would affect the individual as much. Although I think
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: even that way of phrasing it is probably way off,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: So it may be the better way to say it is.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: This almost feels like it's going to affect the individual
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: in part because it squeezes out their culture. In other words,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: it feels like there's some sort of an invasion of
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: collective remembering that comes in and says, no, now you're
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: going to remember like this, and you're no longer going
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: to be able to remember like this, and that fracturing
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: and pulling apart does detriment to both sides.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, Jenning's work.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: On Christian imagination I think illustrates this really beautifully. You
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: know that the displacement that happens in colonization is two ways.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: The person who's thrown off the land is displaced, but
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: then the person who has come to this land is
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: also in a foreign space and they don't exactly know
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: what to do with it. But it just feels to
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: me that there's a sense in which we're losing out
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: because we're missing the beautiful aspects of their culture, the
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: good aspects of other cultures, the true aspects of other culture,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: and we're assuming that ours is sufficiently complete that we
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: don't need to hear from anyone else is that is
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: that an appropriate way, you know, to sort of frame
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: this issue.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the one of the important things that
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: that you've just said there is is the sense that
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: you know, the the damaging aspects of colonization damage both sides.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So the Indigenous people are in need of healing, I
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: mean in terms of all that that they have had
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: to endure. Yeah, but white society needs healing because you know,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: the colonization has warped us in certain ways. And so
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: the focus isn't I don't think it's property to lay
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: blame too much on either side at this point, is
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to say, how do we begin too to create a
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: space where we can begin to repair our relationships. And
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: in order to repair relationships, you've got to give the
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: dig You've got to give dignity to the people who
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: are on the other side and hear their stories and
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: let them talk about their pain. And that is something
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: that historically white society has and even white Christianity has
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: not really been willing to do. We need to create
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: these spaces so that in a sense acknowledging the settler history.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I think it's a way of saying to Indigenous people, Okay,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: we you know, we here's a way that we can
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: begin to show you that we're listening by embracing this.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: But but we want to create a space we're all
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: true can be told and without being judged, and we
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: we work together to under the under the guidance of
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the spirit and the love of Christ, to to take
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: these two different narratives, because, yeah, Nigenous people they've experienced,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: they've experienced the you know, the really shadow side of
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: of of colonialism and and and we've suppressed it. And
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: so to have somebody say, you see what you're doing here,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: let me tell you, let me tell you how that feels,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: and where that's coming from, and what it looks like.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: We need to create those spaces if if we're going
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: to heal our land and heal our church.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's almost like we've blunted our own imaginations
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: about what this could be by bracking out the perspectives
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: of other people. A lot of times, I use the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: analogy of I used to be into art. I used
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: to do a lot of art in high school. And
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: so you'd have the still life, basket of fruit in
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: the middle of the table, right, the stereotypical still life,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: and then people would sit around the table and draw it,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: and no matter how accurately you rendered your side of
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: that basket, there was an aspect of it that somebody
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: else was seeing that you couldn't. And it just feels
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: to me like that's the spirit of the work that
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you're doing, is you're saying, like, look, these folks, we've
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: closed ourselves off and we've decided that it's only our
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: perspective that matters that it captures the truth of the basket.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: And that's obviously not the case because people are seeing
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: this from different angles, and it's not a denial of
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: what you're seeing. It's a supplementation, broadening of our understanding
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: of truth because we're pulling in different perspectives. Now, obviously
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: some of the things that we have have to be
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: corrected as well, and that's where some of this stuff
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: starts to come in. But I don't know, I uh,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: I just find this to be a really I like
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: the way you approach the work in terms of combating
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: that set lar narrative, because I really feel like it's
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: the stories that we're telling ourselves that are creating and
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: perpetuating some of these enduring structures exactly as opposed.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: To trying to and you said it.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not about placing blame at this point,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: like we've all been living with this kind of unwittingly
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: for a really long time. And so we've got to
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: get underneath and understand why the story is wrong and
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: and fix it.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there is a considerable legacy of colonialism going
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: on in in this in this land. And uh it again,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: it's it's so important to just get this sense that
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: and I hear this that too. Yeah, you can't blame
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: me for what happened in the past. I don't take
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: ownership of that. And and and that's exactly right. I
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: can't be responsible for you know, this massacre or this
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: deceitful thing. But as a servant of Christ, I suggest
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: I do have an obligation to to bring healing into
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: this space. And that requires some pretty difficult work to
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: own that history and to say, all right, how, how
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: how having acknowledged Because we don't acknowledge it, then we
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: don't go anywhere. And as you know, we have a
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: movement in the United States right now to replace the
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: history with the mythology once again, and to reset and
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: replace and restore that myth of innocence that that says
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: we're not going to talk about any of the bad stuff.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: We're only going to talk about the good stuff. You know,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: talk about the bad stuff is a downer and it
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: makes people uncomfortable. We talk about the good stuff makes
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: us feel good about ourselves. And so there are those
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: patterns there. Those those go all the way back to
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the colonial era, and at some point we've got to
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: rewrite the script.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I ask you kind of a curve ball question. I
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: don't know whether you've thought about this much, but when
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: you look out at sort of trends like globalization or
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: the advancement of technology, and you know the sort of
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: fetish we have for progress, Let's say, do you see
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: in that sort of resonances of the settlar narrative that
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: these like almost echoes, that these are non landed right,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: extensions almost of the setular narrative.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not of the settler narrative, but of the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: colonial narrative. So kind of deo colonialism now on the
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: part it's it's not so much nations as multinational corporations yea.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: And so colonialism has I think is morphing yet again,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: as as nation states kind of move away or deal
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: with the legacies of European colonialism in various ways. But
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: settler colonialism is is is a subset of the colonial process,
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: and the difference between settler colonials and garden variety colonizers
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: is that settler colonialists colonists want land there after, land
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: that they can they can use, as opposed to most
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: of the expressions of colonialism European colonialism that went into
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: places to exploit labor, exploit natural resources, take the wealth
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: back to the colonial center. So the United States in
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: the United States is a settler colonial state, Canada, Australia
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: and so forth. As some would say, it's after land.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So so.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: We got about ten minutes left, So I kind of
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: want to jump into what do we do about this?
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I think you've done a really good job in the
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: book of kind of laying out all the different aspects
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: of the narrative, and I know we're not scratching the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: surface on those which we weren't really intending to in
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: a forty five minute podcast.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: That's why you wrote a book.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: But as just everyday Christians look out at this thing
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: and they say, what do I do? You know, I
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: don't want to become an activist, But I do want
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: to address these things, and I need to understand how
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: to approach some of the history that I've I've really
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: become accustomed to in ways that allow me to start
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: unwinding that setular narrative and really start understanding. I would
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: argue that it's it's a matter of discipleship, understanding and
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: putting that history that we learn under the authority of Christ,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: so that the truth really is what matters, not some
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: sanitized narrative.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: So what what what would you what advice.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Would you give for Christians who are just sort of
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: moving into this after you've been in it for a
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: long time.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the first yeah, I've walked, I've walked this
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: this this path. So the first thing to do, I think,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: just based on my own experience, is just learn read
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: and particularly if you're if you're captured by this, look
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: into the stories of your own locale. Who are the
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: indigenous people who are here? What happened to them? Why
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: are they no longer here? Where are they? And and
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: when you begin to to go down that line, then
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: and and I uh, begin to address the you know,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: your own local stories, then you can have a sense
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: of how this whole process has impacted the perspectives and
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: the practices. And it may not be directed toward Indigenous people,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: it may be directed toward other people. But but once
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: you get a sense of how that's worked in in
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: in in your own space, you begin to kind of
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: develop a larger perspective. A great book called Healing Haunted
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Histories by A Lane Ends and Chad Myers, is a good,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: good way to very practical way to look into that
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: talk about how the stories are, and they talk about
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: family stories. They both provide us resources and and really
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: expose some things. So I would say that The other
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: thing I would say is is begin to make connections
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: with Indigenous people. So go to pow wows Uh, visit
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: an Indian center when there's there's an event, or just
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: and and and just begin and and and acquaint yourself
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: with some of the issues that that various Indigenous people
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: are facing socially, politically, whatever, and get a sense of
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: how you you might or are inclined to stand with
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: with them local internationally. Those are three out of.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: A number, just one question. I mean, I have a
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: ton of questions, but I only have time for a couple.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: So I'm picking them a thinking about what content we consume.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: We're in a world right now that media has become
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: increasingly proficient at reinforcing whatever narrative it is that we
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: happen to believe in the first place. And so, you know,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: folks who are listening to this podcast may be sitting
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: there quasi offended or frustrated that this conversation is happening
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: or what have you know, it may hit some people wrong.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: I guess that is all I'm saying.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: And so I mean, aside from encouraging, what I try
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: to encourage listeners to do is just calm, thoughtful theological conversation. Right,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: don't be offended, think about it. Right, you don't have
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: to accept it, but don't reject it either. But as
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: you interact with content, I know you're in a more
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: scholarly space. What advice would you give to people about
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: where to turn for good wisdom on these matters? You know,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: how do they interact with the news on a nightly basis?
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: How do they interact with the you know what I'm saying, like,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: how do they escape? Because you're talking about unwinding a narrative,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: but the narrative is all around us.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: So yeah.
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And and the media, as we all know, you know,
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: makes a bundle by keeping us separated and kind of
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: getting us looking at the extremes rather than finding finding
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: a way to come together.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I think humility is a big part of the enterprise
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: where I just want to follow Christ and and and
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: and respect you and hear you. And as you said,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: let's let's let's you know, let's not go into this
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: with with me trying to define to defend myself or
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: my beliefs. I don't, I don't. I don't think Christ
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: is looking for defenders right now. He's looking for disciples
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: and and the way and the voices. I think you you, you,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: and why appreciate podcasts like this. I mean, if we
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: can find some places where people are actually modeling uh uh, congenial,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: respectful conversations together. Uh, I think not only will we
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: find a way forward, but we'll here are we'll find
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: some healing. I mean, we're not, as you alluded, we're
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: not gonna we're not going to help ourselves ultimately as
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: individuals are a nation by just you know, defending our
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: you know, our position against that other group. And yeah,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: we're we're we're children, we're Disciples of Jesus Christ. Let's
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: let's be a peaceable people. Let's let's put relationships over prince,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: over over ideology. Yeah yeah, let's let's let's love each other.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: It seems like a pretty simple thing to do, right.
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not a little sappy to sell, but really,
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: I mean, how can you love God whom you cannot
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: see if you do not love your brother's sister whom
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: you do see?
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think it's really good.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I mean I appreciate not only the book, but I
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: appreciate hearing kind of your journey with this because it's
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: led you to some really cool places. You mentioned before
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: the podcast, you're going to be working on the translation
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: committee with the with Terry Wilman I've had on the
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: show before, but maybe talk a little bit about that.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: It's sort of a this is a nice journey you've
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: had through this.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, you start with just the basic Old Testament stuff, right,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: doing some good work there, and then all of a
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: sudden you end up writing a book that's.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Really outside your niche.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: I mean you know what I'm saying, Like, Yeah, there's
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: something about a specialty that tends to keep you a narrow,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: but you've really gone different direction. And so yeah, just
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what you're going to be
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: doing on the editorial board.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Well, the Translation Council. Yeah, Yeah. Terry and his wife
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Darlene are folks that I met while I was out speaking,
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: and we have just become really great friends. And so
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: you may be aware that Psalms and Proverbs First Nations
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: version has has been published as well. And so actually
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: Terry invited me up to the Translation Council when they
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: began work to launch that particular volume and asked me
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: if I would serve as a Hebrew language consultant, and
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: I immediately said yes, because I will play my hand here.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I love being an indigenous space. It's just so healing
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: and different. There is it's different, and it nourishes my soul.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: And just being a part of that group. The way
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: they think, the way they talk, the way they honor Christ,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: it's just I'm so grateful. So I VP wants to
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: do the whole Old Testament, I guess. So Terry calls
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: me up after we get to solve some proverbs out
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: and he says, hey, if you like doing Genesis through
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: second gigs, sure, let's do. Yeah, it's been a great experience.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I'm sure if Terry kind of talked to you about
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: all the decisions that have to be made and how
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: difficult that is to to reframe translation in an indigenous mode.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Well, and you all are cranking them out at a
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: pace that I wouldn't anticipate as possible, So kudos to that.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it was a fascinating conversation. He was really helpful,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: and so I feel like those conversations, this conversation are
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: kind of leading me down a path as well, which
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: is great.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: And so I really.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you being here today to talk this through. Where
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: we're kind of up on time, so I want to
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: respect your time as well. But this has been fantastic
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and I really appreciate you being here.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Jan, Thank you so much for the invitation.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: As you may have detected, this topic lights me up. Yeah,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: I just I so much appreciate your your invitation to
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: talk about it and where see where things go?
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Absolutely well everybody. So this is an IVP published book.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: I think you probably picked that up. So we listeners
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: get twenty percent. There's a discount code in the show notes,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: and so if you order it, off of ivp's website,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: which that link will be there as well, and you
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: put into the discount code, you'll get twenty percent off
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: this book.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: I would really recommend it.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: I think undoing Manifest Destiny approaches this ties one of
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: the books I've read that I felt was very approachable
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: for someone who might be new to this conversation. I
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: thought it was just a really nice way to enter
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: this conversation and think about it, and so I'd recommend
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: it highly.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: Check it out.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: I'mdoing Manifest Destiny Setler America, Christian Colonists and the Pursuit
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: of Justice by L. Daniel Hawk, And like I said,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: the link will be there in the show notes. So again, Daniel,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: thanks for being here and thanks everybody for listening. We'll
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: see on the next episode of Thinking Christian take care
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: of Everybody. I just want to take a second to
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: and more.