Latest / CrossPolitic Show / Recap: Tyler Robinson's Preliminary Hearing w/ Ryan Helfenbein
Transcript
- Hey y'all welcome to Cross Balletik 1v1, one on one with the water boy it's gonna be with you I have kind of a special show normally we don't really record on Monday but my friend Ryan Heffelbine was at Charlie Kirk's pre-trial pre-trial last week and so he had some time and I thought we'd get him on the show today to talk about you know what happened at the pre-trial you know what was the mood what was the vibe what was going on what are some of the narratives that are kind of being thrown around on the web what's true what's not so anyways please welcome Ryan Heffelbine to the show Ryan thank you for joining Cross Balletik 1v1 you don't even know you've never been on 1v1 so 1v1's just me man that's all I love it I'm with the water boy today yeah yeah Toby and Knox are out of the studio and it's just they're all losers who cares me I know it's just me so yeah they get I cause the problems and they have to answer for me and that you know no I'm just kidding so you are we're at Charlie Kirk's pre-trial yeah now the pre-trial is basically you know is there a good enough evidence to go to a full trial so we're wasting everyone's time and you know this isn't like a fake you know evidence kind of you know Kangaroo trial set up they do a pre-trial just to test to make sure the evidence good enough to go to a full court so that's basically what the pre-trial was what was kind of like the vibe and in the court in the courtroom yeah yeah so great questions so this state of Utah versus Tyler Robinson this is a preliminary trial and the balance of this is to prove probable cause and so the idea is that the state prosecution team is going to present evidence that would then be admitted and later be used in the trial and so yes witness testimony corroborating evidence that kind of thing the judge is going to wait considerations of course there's going to be objections from the defense team the defense team their whole goal is to delay to stall and to even through the kind of proceedings procedurally they're going to try as much as they can to sort of throw up barriers all kinds of objections standing objections they're going to try to get rulings from the judge to make sure that this is inadmissible at the very least gave they're going to try and do things so that the public doesn't see it so there were kind of like three three tiers if you will in that courtroom and I'll talk a little bit about the mood but like the idea first of all is that you know can it be presented to the witness this evidence that they can then sort of you know opine on or or cooperate or talk about you know what we're looking at or seeing there's that and then there's the second thing is could it be presented to the courtroom itself which includes the gallery all those that are there those that are you know potential associates of Tyler Robinson he has a number of people that were there his family his mother father brothers uncle there were people that were there there was the public and then there was also the victim representative which was Erica Kirk who's recognized in the Utah State Constitution that she does have constitutional rights and standing to be present and part of that included the ability to view the evidence right and to be able to see it so there were all kinds of kerfuffle kind of going back back and forth really it was the seven figure the million dollar team that the taxpayers are paying for for essentially Tyler Robinson's defense that defense team is a million dollar team and they absolutely are competent at what they're doing and they're trying to try to through this process either to get a mistrial through this process to get an appeal they're going to look for every avenue they can and so if the judge doesn't do it by the book they're going to file in petition and do motions and all kinds of things in order to get that as far as your question the room itself there was just so much tension in that room you feel that grief you're seeing you're watching a widow obviously bearing the burden she has all year ten months since Charlie's been assassinated she lost a husband a best friend her children lost their father they will never see him again this side of eternity and she's also dealing with the weight and the burden of all of the stuff that's happening outside on social media Candace Owens others who are throwing up all of these wild wild hair conspiracies and reckless right these these guys are irresponsible at least reckless evil nefarious diabolical at the worst and that's exactly what this is she wants the evidence to get out there not only to clear you know turning point in those people that have been targeted publicly but also herself because she's been attacked and this is not just about oh people think mean things about Erica she's sensitive to mean people thinking mean things no no no these are death threats you know turning point has had death threats friends of turning point have had death threats quite literally have had to pay for its security have had to even relocate at different times based on the reckless evil nefarious diabolical comments that have been made online by Candace Owens and and people that throw their throw in their lot with her so Erica was there the whole week yes and you were there for three three of the five days or something like that that's right Wednesday Thursday Friday yes and then when you got there two days of the pretrial had already been going that's right and you know seemed like a lot of so and they were letting a lot of the evidence go public yes and and a lot of that evidence seem well let's let's go here you know part of part of you know I was to think about this whole trial and everything is going on as Christians we only want to care about what's true and what's true in God's eyes and and what's true in this world and we don't care about you can spend a narrative this is this is Satan's best gift yeah is taking truths and turning it into a way that it's still believable and getting humans to act on it and it seems like there's been so many narratives and untruths and lies that have been going on around this trial and in some sense it seems like this is why accusations should end up in court right okay let's have your side talk let's have the other side talk let's have a defense let's have a prosecution you know let's have a fair playing field and and so it seems like there's like a little bit of like a refreshing element to this that it's like okay we have a fair room and judge to help kind of move the conversation forward right that question kind of making sense where it's like yeah I imagine Erica is you know reliving the the drama and the sadness all over again I'm sure it's just re-relivening everything that's right but I'd also say to me this is why earthly justice can only do so much but it's still earthly justice done well done just done in truth God does use earthly justice to help bring a resolution yes so I can imagine that a part of this I mean you know you were in the room part of this is I can imagine people are like yeah finally we're getting into the pre-trial finally we're actually gonna get to hopefully Lord willing a trial yes finally we're gonna start getting to make some real headway in finalizing this whole murder trial that happened to Charlie Charlie I mean is there some I guess some element of conversations that were happening or some feeling in the courtroom that like we're glad we're here there is a south right so the the wounds are ongoing the feeling of that is there the grief the sorrow you know I saw some real raw emotion this week not to get into all of that drama but just yes you know watching Erica have to experience that you know all over again there are there are kind of in a way two trials going on simultaneously the real trial in that courtroom but then the trial of the courtroom of public opinion right the courtroom of public opinion out there on social media and I you know I've often said to Erica as a personal friend known Erica for seven years and newer before she married Charlie and you're when she was Erica Fronsfei I've known her to be a godly woman a woman of of upstanding character and and all of this time she's been a woman of humility you know people oftentimes we'll try to assign I had to correct a brother a Christian brother the other day who said you know well just based on my you know my analysis she's been acting weird you know Erica's acted weird don't you think Erica's acted weird and I'm like hang on pause just for a second first of all listen you've got to be honest for a second I'm gonna be gracious here but you got to be honest you don't know Erica Kirk right how can you say that her behavior is weird she has gone through the unimaginable right she's walked through to something you can't imagine imagine walking through that well you can't really imagine that I'm not gonna go into standpoint of epistemology but no I mean you've not you're not a widow and you've not lost your husband in the way she has so you don't know what that's like so how can you judge whatever you think is appropriate a weird behavior you know a lot of this is merely ideas and viewpoints shared online and people kind of as a bandwagon are kind of signing on to what others have shared and said and they're kind of like their their emotions are being twisted exactly what you said earlier first you know the correspondence theory of truth versus what was the other one yes versus the coherence coherence coherence coherence is all about this constellation of this data point this data point this data point let me try to connect the dots for you no you can't connect the dots that's not the way you do you know you actually do that when we were we were looking at COVID for example we got all kinds of data points out there and then we were testing those things like is what you know CDC saying true is what Anthony Fauci is saying true we had a way of doing that and it wasn't by just emotions alone or I feel this is wrong therefore it is no like we need to get the facts and as we data collect we test part of the scientific method hypothesis theory and all of that but the the issue that we see is that there is a victim in Charlie Charlie's life was taken but there's also been other victims Erica Kirk is a victim turning point is an organization has been a victim of the attacks that have been merciless mercilessly thrown on them for months now and so part of this trial is of course determining the verdict of this of the accused Tyler Robinson the alleged shooter the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming I was going to ask you about that and we can get into that and I want you to ask those questions but yeah at the end of the day there's what's going on inside this courtroom and then there's what's actually happening as soon as this as soon as you saw at the end of every day okay now we've got video now we've got text messages now we have a DNA we have more and more and more and what we're seeing is that these wild conspiracies are immediately just dissolving because they don't they don't comport with the truth let's talk about just some of the facts that in evidence that you saw in the courtroom as is kind of rolling out each day yeah just kind of you know talk about what you saw what some of the facts that you saw were very convincing and just kind of roll from there yeah so when I got there on Wednesday Wednesday was probably one of the most difficult moments of the of the pre trial only because there was so much maneuvering by the defense team and and the biggest thing they were concerned about the defense team was Lance Twig's testimony I mean there is no more damning evidence than that in the Lance Twig's testimony there's about 35 some odd minutes in change where he goes through and speaks to a number of things he talks about the text messages he talks about the discord chat group he talks about the confession letter he talks about the Dremel tool he talks about this rifle this Mauser Dremel tool that that supposedly Charlie's murder had used to Dremel his words on the bullets yes hey fascist catch right catch this right like so all of that was being discussed in this testimony that was on video it was captured by Ryan McBride he's a member of the state prosecution team procedurally he was very good but Lance Twig's video there was all this debate we I didn't actually get to see it until Thursday morning but but it looked like there was a moment in which the defense team was going to get most of it redacted so that in the pre trial we wouldn't see it well we saw enough of it praise be to God that we and by the way the defense team was saying you know your honor some could could screw this as an actual confession well I mean it's there it's sworn testimony I mean this is this is something where it's a felony if he were to lie he understands his own rights he understands the immunity he's been given Lance was going to tell the whole truth here and so you you had in that moment where he's basically discussing what you know his conversation with Tyler via text then we could actually see those text messages back and forth between the two of them he basically says he did this he did it with his grandfather's gun it's a 1938 Mauser this is by the way one of the biggest conspiracy theories of it all was that this bullet there's no way this bullet would have exploded and broken into fragments like it did it would have gone through his body we heard all of that stuff no he confirmed and we was also confirmed later through ballistics that this was a soft shell and anybody who understands anything about hunting or anything about you know pistols and all that soft shells are designed to flowers and as they make impact with coming in contact with flesh they're supposed to burst open and break apart that's the whole point and this is not a modern high power rifle it's it's an 88 year old weapon and it was a 145 yard shot give or take so you know we saw in the text messages him basically saying he left it at a certain point it was wrapped in a towel he was going back to get it he confirmed in the text Tyler to Lance twigs that he did do it he confirmed it in a letter by the time you receive this he's wrote that right out this letter you know either I'm going to be captured or dead that he's going to take the life of Charlie the other part of the video I'm just going to say this really quick the part they wanted redacted the defense team okay had to do with transgender ideology it had to do with personal questions regarding Lance and their big concern is that is going to motive okay so the issue is that the defense team doesn't want the motive to be established that this was in some way a hate crime that was motivated right out of concerns for soji or Charlie's Christian faith so the defense team there was a letter by David Engelhart you know David David wrote this regarding Charlie's faith they did not want this to be admitted as evidence their biggest concern again is this elevated status that Charlie could have not just been a political target but targeted based on his religion and that's exactly what the defense team was afraid of and it did get admitted as evidence interesting and so what was so what was the defense counter argument I didn't really hear much about their counter argument you're talking a little bit about kind of like the politics in the courtroom and kind of the legality of stuff what was their counter argument yeah outside of trying to get certain evidence admitted or not admitted based on all these stuff yeah so I'm gathering from three days and so they had a standing objection about the potential of tainting the jury pool by putting this evidence out there so that the public could see it right they want to reserve that for the trial they don't want to do that to unduly impact the public opinion right so they didn't want to do that they wanted to have a standing objection on every piece of evidence there was the whole issue about the video on the rooftop and it was zoomed in and there were certain like the John Madden style circling they were like they wanted to object that this video had somehow been rendered okay so then they wanted that out ironically enough they wanted to add another video so that we wouldn't see the full length of those videos to give us fuller context right so they would go back and forth on this they would question uh i witnesses all the time hey is this your report yes it's your it's my report now you're under oath did you use AI to fill out this report no i did not okay so you didn't use AI they're trying to find any potential loophole they would call into question right their authority the credentials anything they can use they're gonna search for it so a lot of this is procedural um they did not have an alibi for where he could have been so by the way you know one of the big things Tyler Robinson was never on campus well we have video that he was lance twigs basically says yeah that looks like Tyler you know based on what i see that's his car that's his that looks like him she wears shoes like that he wears a hat like that that shirt recognize that maroon shirt so there he sees saying all that they had no other alibi of where else he could be he was not a student there he had to drive over three hours to get there right um and so what they're trying to look for is you know they were on on day one and two for example isn't that an open carry campus can't you carry weapon can any student carry weapons on that campus they're trying to find anything they can another one was dna um it's been long established you know you anybody who watched the series csi and i probably launched 20 different series of csi dna has been used for a long time to establish proof evidence the bordering on proof dna is pretty authoritative they have different ways in which they can test for what's included how many other dna you know specimens were taken from something you know where there four different types of dna for example on this weapon was there one one of the most prominent most damning damning pieces of evidence was the gun itself um the the the the fbi forensic investigator basically said um i mean there's multiple points the the trigger the stock the bump the barrel the the the telescoping um scope um he had multiple points of contact that it was Tyler Roberts since dna one in a trillion odds that it could be anyone else i'd have to be greater than one in a trillion and statistically they have bigger numbers but they cut it off at a trillion because most people can't comprehend a number bigger than that there's only seven billion people on the planet right so it is i mean that that that's basically it so what they're going to try to attack his procedure and grounds and if this is not a clean case they're going to work for a mistrial or an appeal yeah so basically the play there is to summarize it's like the lawyers are after beyond a reasonable doubt so the the um the defense is trying to create doubt to get get outside that category being on a reasonable doubt there's right here he's not guilty he can't convict him of murder that's right and so that's why it's very tactical procedural game it seems like for lawyers especially if it's pretty clear that he was on campus that day uh kind of thing you're just you're just trying to figure out how to create a reasonable beyond a reasonable doubt so you're going to you're going to try to respond to the evidence that he's on campus there's no need to that's right the campus we get it but did he really do it you know yes kind of argument yes let me give you one other thing so her name is Andrea Burkhart she you can find her on x she's a very good attorney one of the things and she was kind of collecting all of this stuff and watching the trial very closely and she pointed out something that in the testimony of Lance and on the text message she you can just got his testimony you've got the text message he describes exactly exactly to the detail where he left the weapon what it looked like how it was wrapped in a black towel they uncovered and found the weapon the authorities law enforcement um I think it was around six p.m. he went back at midnight and he was kind of describing what it would look like he couldn't find it well it's because they already found it they picked it up they took pictures exactly as it appeared when they found it it matches the exact description that he gave in the text message to Lance twigs meaning that there was no way you could make that up I mean it's it's like it's so obvious when they found it and discovered it um earlier in the day it was still daylight outside and they took a picture in the field um it was wrapped in a towel and and it was exactly as he had described that that is probably one of the most damning pieces of evidence and it's it's pulling those like it's like a trifecta of facts that are all hitting at the same time so so one of the uh I mean obviously I was watching basically the news and Twitter kind of thing and just piecing together kind of what happens um uh and one of the things that came out was people were claiming that there was a 4k video of um Tyler pulling the trigger on the roof yeah and and and that it was clear kind of thing and I'm always even even you know my side yeah I'm so skeptical right well I want to see it I want to see yeah yeah so uh what was was there 4k video of of the some sort of rooftop camera shot right you know what was going on there yeah so let me from my vantage point where I was in the courtroom first of all I probably need glasses myself I I'm sitting at a distance there is a huge monitor that monitors at a distance yes there was um zoomed in video um there in that video is one of the exhibits um it was depicting so day one there's a guy named officer bag Lee okay he's a local law enforcement um he was also at that time he doesn't work there now but he was a you of Aldi campus police officer so what he did is they were showing different videos um he or rather he was establishing the buildings on campus excuse me and then there was a guy named whole uh who was another witness who was basically um talking through the different security camera shots that you see okay so we've all seen this you've seen it we've all seen it we're like the car goes in the garage he walks out then he's he's walking at the different points on campus then he's kind of going into a stairwell yeah what they've established is close up yes that's his face there yeah like you can see it it's it's high definition it's good resolution that's him that's his face um that that's basically what uh land set I mean he basically said yeah that looks like him yeah so the stairwell that he's ascending is the stairwell access to the roof it was established by multiple witnesses that this is x actually there's no way if he goes beyond this point this is exactly where he's headed he's headed to the roof yeah once on the roof and this is where it gets a little maybe distorted in the telling once on the roof that camera shot is at a distance you can see the face and the previous and the stairwell it's clearly his face but once on the roof he's at a distance now you deduce you put two and two together it would be the same person stands to reason that it is but no time stamps and yes that's exactly right the person is in place and quote it what is called the prone position the sniping position at exactly 1220 Utah time the shot is taken around 1223 38 seconds and then there's a 17 second where he's running with this long black object right can't be a bag it's not anything bigger than that's very slender yeah we deduce that that's the gun and then he's going to this corner of the roof and then he's dropping down and he had there's a huge foot imprint in the grass where he landed and made contact so there you go so I think what people are wondering is did you see that video is not 4k on the roof no where did that when that video where was that camera located to be able to at least get that shot yeah so at a distance it's another building I know they've identified it in the trial yeah because obviously there's you know no drone up there no UVU didn't allow for drones or something happened there because normally TPSA would have a drone right in these situations but whatever whatever the politics situation there's no drone up there so there was a camera though on another building that still at least captured the the motion of everything that's that's exactly right so okay because that's what it was yeah I'm being touted on Twitter was like okay well I want to see it right I I will say that the that from that distance no you couldn't see close in 4k or anything like that but you can understand in the sequence in the timing and I would say in the previous leading up to that in the stairwell and all that yes very close very obvious okay okay all right so basically this pretrial happens anything kind of towards the in anything that was memorable that'd be helpful to the audience to know yeah if I'm if I'm just cycling through and I'm thinking through those days I think I think the most obvious thing is that you have the family of Tyler Robinson you as father his mother yeah who are cooperating who wanted him to turn himself in had worked it out with a retired deputy sheriff to have and the reason they were they did not want a manhunt for Tyler they did not want Tyler to be caught out in the field potentially getting shot and killed they didn't want a violent capture and so they knew by the way when the gun was uncovered and given the description of the gun and then given the fact that he had borrowed this gun from his grandfather for a quote unquote hunting trip the piece has started to come together and then when they saw the photos that's their son they that they the parents knew and so this is again the thing that is insane Gabe is just the thought that you know you would have to have the county medical examiner you would have to have the state bureau of investigation you would have to have Utah you know county police all of them working in some kind of grand conspiracy along with turning point along with Erica Kirk along with the Israeli government right to pull off any kind of other thing other than what it actually is and so I think the evidence points to the truth and I think that the truth is again that the accused I think the truth is and this is my opinion is that it's Tyler Robinson based on all the all of the overwhelming avalanche of avalanche what was his family's reaction in the courtroom as they're watching all this evidence yeah I I'm gonna say this um out of respect for that family it appeared to me that they were mortified it appeared to me uh that they were grieved by this um they did not think that this was a joke or a laughing matter they took this with the utmost earnestness and seriousness um they were very respectful um there was no this was not you know as though you had two teams against one another I think out of us out of love maybe for their son of course they were gonna be there and stand as witness but uh but no this is not a proud day for them at all and so I I could see um that there was great sorrow and grief that that was not just Erica and us but also that family that was experiencing grief over what what it happened yeah for real and then what was what was your time with Erica um I mean yeah I'm over the conversations time with Erica you know what do you say to a friend that has experienced that I mean what do you say I mean all I can do is you know when we've had we've shared many conversations since September 10 2025 um you know I I I feel like you know she has been in a certain theological classroom that I've never been in before in terms of life and experience she is she has walked through a certain kind of grief that I pray no one has to and in many ways um I am not there to be your teacher but just her encourage her and so as we were having conversations it was just about prayer um it was just a reminder that I I believe God is a vendigator and an Avenger and I believe you know in every case of course eternity but I believe in a lot of cases God vindicates in this life not just in the life to come and so I do believe um that Erica will be vindicated um no we cannot bring Charlie back but the truth truth and truth must get out there and justice must be done and so I am a Genesis 9 believer in the death penalty and I believe that is the only appropriate response in this situation and if this case gets boggled then then that would be the only reason it wouldn't happen but with Erica I just you know I'm reminded of what limitations calls us to limitations three that that is mercies are new every morning and and so that was actually one of my um you know messages to her is that the Lord is faithful and that his mercies are new every morning I remember my wondering my afflictions the bitterness in the call I will remember them and my soul is downcasten within me yet this I call to mine and therefore I hope um you know his love never fails and his mercies are new every morning great as thy faithfulness and so I just that is the that's the the message um the land the it is a song of lament but also took to count the only joy the inexplicable joy the one that is that no one can fully understand and I think she has that joy I do um but but we serve a god who is acquainted with sorrows and grief and so um that does not take away fully the grief but you can have a kind of joy even in the midst of it and I see that in her and so uh pretrial is over and it sounds like the judge is set to rule in September September one I think would conclude it yeah so there's supposed to be briefings that are filed there's supposed to be oral arguments that are given um and then again this is only probable cause and I mean it's 99.9999 percent likely it'll go to trial if he has a non you know um not guilty pleading you know so yeah so he uh so the pretrial is over so now both lawyers are going to submit their their arguments based on why they should go to trial or why they should go to trial right and then the judge is going to rule uh it's around September 1st and yeah I think there's good enough evidence a real trial or not if evidence go and then that's the next step that's right if it goes if it goes to trial then when would that happen that part I'm I'm a little foggy on so I don't know if it's you know later in the fall or if it's actually 2027 and um part so part of again the consideration of why this evidence needed to get some of it out there in the public was because um many could not wait you know there there was it was already 10 months um that that you know again as a victim uh they're pushing for a speedy trial so yeah yeah yeah and I think in the state of Utah you have the option to speed up a trial I think there's actually um in the state of Utah I remember reading something along the lines um Erica uh asked for a faster trial and she's able to receive that that time frame or whatever interesting well man hey thank you so much for uh you know attending and being there with Erica and thank you kind of for your your in-person thoughts about what what happened on the ground and really appreciate it and I hope I'm part of this like this goes back to the kind of the very beginning of our of our time here was you know I want truth if if the truth doesn't you know I don't I don't have any um um expectation right or twisted expectation or you know it's like um you know Candice she is sold on it it not being Tyler Robinson so all her interpretation of this is going to be it wasn't Tyler wasn't Tyler wasn't Tyler and so that's how she's going to constantly be interpreting if it wasn't Tyler like that doesn't bother me if it was Tyler it it doesn't bother me and this is I just want I want truth to happen here in the courtroom exactly and there's so many conservatives I'll say on our side on the hard right on you know um uh that are I think caught up in so much narrative driven truth versus objective truth that we're we're saying things because we want a certain outcome when it's when we should be um totally dedicated the God in his word and the reality of of of of truth even in this scenario and and not walk away constantly trying to find a new angle to get the outcome that the pre determined outcome that I already want to see in all this that's right that's why I'm glad you you were there you were in person we could talk to you yeah brother your thoughts on all this so appreciate you man absolutely no click farming that's all we do right exactly thank you Ryan hevelbind appreciate your brother hope you guys enjoy the show make sure you share it uh subscribe to us on itunes youtube share the show kind of help some people get some calm narrative my friend Ryan thank you for joining crossball optic one on one with the water boy