Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: The Scene From The Matthew Shepard Story Shane Meier Still Can't Talk About

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Killer Thriller: The Scene From The Matthew Shepard Story Shane Meier Still Can't Talk About · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.
0:14
Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller.
0:19
Speaker 3: Few crimes changed America the way the murder of Matthew
0:23
Speaker 3: Shepherd did. In October nineteen ninety eight, the twenty one
0:27
Speaker 3: year old University of Wyoming student was brutally beaten, tied
0:31
Speaker 3: to a fence outside Laramie, Wyoming, and left to die.
0:36
Speaker 3: The case became a national flashpoint, sparking conversations about hate crimes,
0:40
Speaker 3: LGBTQ rights, and violence that continued to this day. Just
0:45
Speaker 3: three and a half years later, NBC dramatized the story
0:49
Speaker 3: in The Matthew Shepherd Story. Today we are joined by
0:52
Speaker 3: Shane Meyer, who portrayed Matthew in the film and continues
0:56
Speaker 3: to speak about his life and legacy. Shane, Welcome to
1:00
Speaker 3: Killer Thriller.
1:01
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
1:03
Speaker 3: I really, uh gosh, I didn't think I was gonna
1:08
Speaker 3: get emotional before I said anything. I just I'm I'm really,
1:15
Speaker 3: I'm just very happy to talk to you today. And
1:17
Speaker 3: I think that this is it's such a deeply, deeply
1:21
Speaker 3: disturbing and particularly brutal crime that it's just this this
1:28
Speaker 3: this movie is very very powerful, and I think there
1:30
Speaker 3: are rare moments when you know, this thing that we
1:34
Speaker 3: get to do called entertainment can be very very valuable
1:38
Speaker 3: and kind of transcend uh the word entertainment, and this
1:43
Speaker 3: is one of those things. So I just wanted to
1:44
Speaker 3: say how moved I was by your work in it, and.
1:47
Speaker 1: That it's a really beautiful, beautiful project.
1:52
Speaker 2: Thank you. You know, I I would argue, let me
1:56
Speaker 2: say that it's the it's the biggest thing that I
1:58
Speaker 2: ever did in my career as an act if you're
2:00
Speaker 2: aware of. But I'm not really in the entertainment industry anymore.
2:03
Speaker 3: I read that that you sort of I mean, I
2:05
Speaker 3: don't know how you kind of top this one.
2:08
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. I was thinking about this morning, and
2:11
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't like. The reason why I
2:13
Speaker 2: kind of pivoted is is because that's as good as
2:16
Speaker 2: I can do. I mean, as a actor playing the
2:20
Speaker 2: you know, the title role in a film that meant
2:23
Speaker 2: so much to millions and millions of people and got
2:26
Speaker 2: viewed by millions of people. Back when hate crimes were
2:31
Speaker 2: very kind of rare and not I mean, they're happening
2:34
Speaker 2: all the time now, it's very unfortunate. So, as I said,
2:38
Speaker 2: I'd like to kind of just kind of not retire
2:41
Speaker 2: but in my career on a high note and say,
2:43
Speaker 2: you know what I am. I am. It's going to
2:45
Speaker 2: take a lot to top that. So anytime anybody wants
2:49
Speaker 2: me to speak about anything about the Matthew Shepard story,
2:52
Speaker 2: I am hands down one on board.
2:55
Speaker 4: So yeah, so why do you before you got the role,
3:00
Speaker 4: were you how much did you know about Matthew and
3:04
Speaker 4: had his that case already impacted you or what did
3:07
Speaker 4: you know?
3:08
Speaker 2: So I I didn't know a lot. I mean, I'm
3:10
Speaker 2: up here in Vancouver, Canada, so my career is based
3:13
Speaker 2: in Canada. Here in Vancouver. I remember I remember seeing
3:17
Speaker 2: man I think it was a it was it Time
3:20
Speaker 2: magazine or People magazine, some something. Some magazine had a
3:26
Speaker 2: a blurb on him about like hate crime, and it
3:28
Speaker 2: had happened a year before, I think, or a couple
3:31
Speaker 2: of years before. But as an actor, I got my
3:34
Speaker 2: agent called me and said, they're doing this this movie
3:38
Speaker 2: the week back when we have movies of the week. Yeah,
3:41
Speaker 2: and you know they're looking for this this actor, this
3:44
Speaker 2: that that resembles him, And so I just did some
3:46
Speaker 2: simple research and found out that I was like, holy man,
3:49
Speaker 2: he actually does I do look like him because he
3:52
Speaker 2: was very frail and small, and I've been small and
3:55
Speaker 2: tiny my whole life. It was a big search. I
3:58
Speaker 2: know that they were searching it ono, Vancouver, New York, LA,
4:02
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Uh. We knew that it was
4:05
Speaker 2: shooting in Toronto's so they might hire a Canadian, but
4:09
Speaker 2: we we didn't know there was Union rules on you know,
4:12
Speaker 2: the second position or third position has to be a
4:14
Speaker 2: Canadian actor.
4:15
Speaker 1: Right right, there are specific rules. Yeah.
4:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just put a you know, I I
4:21
Speaker 2: did the audition. I put a tape together. First of all,
4:25
Speaker 2: did the taping h and said it into I think
4:29
Speaker 2: it was NBC. It was NBC, and the director immediately
4:32
Speaker 2: director producers immediately got ahold of my agent said that's great,
4:35
Speaker 2: we actually want to meet him. The director is going
4:37
Speaker 2: to fly in and hold sessions in Vancouver. So that's
4:41
Speaker 2: when I got to meet Roger spot.
4:44
Speaker 1: Us with for the first it's the director.
4:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, and did a little bit of research
4:49
Speaker 2: in between them and kind of and that's when I
4:50
Speaker 2: really kind of I'm like, oh, it's yeah, I do
4:52
Speaker 2: remember hearing about this, he was crucified and tied to
4:57
Speaker 2: a fence. But before that I did I didn't know
5:00
Speaker 2: too too much about I knew that I knew the name,
5:02
Speaker 2: and I knew this because the kind of the image
5:04
Speaker 2: was everywhere. But after that, after I actually booked the part,
5:09
Speaker 2: the real work research began and I kind of learned
5:12
Speaker 2: how this, how this impacted the world.
5:16
Speaker 3: For that matter, right, And so this was the film
5:20
Speaker 3: came out and was shot only three and a half
5:23
Speaker 3: years after his murder, And so Matthew's parents were very
5:27
Speaker 3: much alive and actively involved in the the.
5:32
Speaker 1: Approval.
5:33
Speaker 3: I don't know were they They didn't have any thing
5:36
Speaker 3: to do with the writing, right, but they were involved
5:38
Speaker 3: with the production.
5:39
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, they were involved in but they didn't I
5:41
Speaker 2: don't think. I don't think they had much to do
5:43
Speaker 2: with the writing, you know, nothing to do. I mean,
5:46
Speaker 2: I the first time I met Judah as a story
5:49
Speaker 2: in itself, and I'm sure we'll dive into that pace.
5:51
Speaker 1: Yeah tell me.
5:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, so I got cast, so I didn't have
5:56
Speaker 2: a I got cast in it, and I had maybe
5:59
Speaker 2: a month. They're like, you need to be in Toronto.
6:02
Speaker 2: We're shooting at Toronto we need to be in Toronto.
6:03
Speaker 2: They're flying you out in three weeks. So research, research, research,
6:08
Speaker 2: you know, I'm I'm, I'm I got a Vancouver's got
6:11
Speaker 2: a fairly phenomenant gay gay crowd here. So I kind
6:15
Speaker 2: of went and I'm a heterosexual male like, so I
6:18
Speaker 2: I kind of did my little bit of research and
6:20
Speaker 2: I sing every single restaurant and bar that I went
6:23
Speaker 2: into with my brother at the time. You know, my
6:26
Speaker 2: brother kind of was my body guard security though, and
6:29
Speaker 2: I would tell them, I'd say, listen, I'm doing this
6:31
Speaker 2: this film that's based on Matthew Shepherd. And immediately, like
6:34
Speaker 2: I would have a group of people around me, you know,
6:37
Speaker 2: oh my god, Like he was very well known. Everyone
6:40
Speaker 2: knew of them. So that's kind of the extent of
6:43
Speaker 2: my research. I would just sit down and talk to
6:45
Speaker 2: these guys and I'd buy them a beer and tell me,
6:47
Speaker 2: how did you you know, how do you how did
6:48
Speaker 2: you hear about this guy? How did you tell me
6:50
Speaker 2: how he impacted your life? That sort of thing. So
6:54
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks in research and then off to Toronto,
6:56
Speaker 2: and then it was camera testing and doing some rehearsals
6:59
Speaker 2: with Roger and he was still actually casting some of
7:02
Speaker 2: the parts down in Toronto, so I was able to
7:03
Speaker 2: kind of help some stuff. And that's how I kind
7:06
Speaker 2: of met Judy Shepherd for the first time. And I
7:09
Speaker 2: remember chatting with the producers saying, listen, I want the
7:11
Speaker 2: first meeting to really be very kind of no pressure,
7:17
Speaker 2: like you know, extensions in at the time. So I
7:20
Speaker 2: really started to look like him and I lost a
7:21
Speaker 2: little bit of weight.
7:22
Speaker 3: So and this is his mom for people that don't know,
7:25
Speaker 3: Judy is Matthew's mom.
7:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I knew that she was going to be
7:28
Speaker 2: in town. I just didn't know if she was staying
7:30
Speaker 2: in the same hotel and whatnot. So I had been
7:34
Speaker 2: kind of ingraining myself in Toronto, and you know, I
7:38
Speaker 2: was there for a few weeks before and the first
7:41
Speaker 2: day of shooting was coming up, and I just didn't
7:43
Speaker 2: know when she was coming into town. I know she
7:44
Speaker 2: was coming into town to do a bunch of press,
7:46
Speaker 2: you know, entertainment tonight was coming. We're going to do
7:48
Speaker 2: this whole thing, But I didn't know how they were
7:50
Speaker 2: going to set up this meet, this first introduction, because
7:53
Speaker 2: I don't I mean, imagine meeting somebody that looks like
7:57
Speaker 2: your son it's just I wanted it to be. It's
8:01
Speaker 2: such a sensitive area, and I wanted it to be
8:03
Speaker 2: very like, very kind of neutral ground and allow me
8:07
Speaker 2: to say that, you know, I'm shame, like I'm not,
8:10
Speaker 2: you know, like there's a big difference here, even though
8:11
Speaker 2: I resemble him, there's there's a big, big difference. But
8:14
Speaker 2: it kind of it kind of got away from us
8:16
Speaker 2: because I remember walking out of the hotel lobby to
8:20
Speaker 2: go have a bite to eat and a car was
8:22
Speaker 2: pulling up and I was like, imagine if that was her,
8:25
Speaker 2: And of course, out of the door walks and we
8:28
Speaker 2: lock eyes and I remember looking at her. I'm We're
8:31
Speaker 2: about twenty feet away, and she just stared at me
8:34
Speaker 2: like it was like a deer in the headlights. And
8:36
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, Oh my god. So
8:39
Speaker 2: I walked over to her and I literally was I said, listen,
8:42
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I did not want this to happen.
8:45
Speaker 2: I wanted it to be on neutral ground and a
8:47
Speaker 2: very kind of like loving environment where it's just me
8:50
Speaker 2: and her, maybe a dinner something like that, her and Roger,
8:53
Speaker 2: or me her and Stockard. But it didn't happen. And
8:57
Speaker 2: so I was like, I just walked up her and
9:00
Speaker 2: I hugged her and I said, I want you to
9:02
Speaker 2: know this is where I get. I want to know
9:05
Speaker 2: that I will do the best job that I can
9:08
Speaker 2: to make sure that we portray your son the way
9:11
Speaker 2: that he would want and then you would want. So
9:15
Speaker 2: she couldn't even talk. She looked, she was just like
9:18
Speaker 2: she couldn't and there's just another embrace. And I said,
9:22
Speaker 2: you know, let's let's you know, check into the hotel
9:25
Speaker 2: because she had just landed in hotel, and we'll connect.
9:30
Speaker 2: And I want you to know that I'm you know,
9:32
Speaker 2: I want you to see Shane and not Matthew, but
9:34
Speaker 2: I also want you to see Matthew and me as well.
9:36
Speaker 2: So that was our first meeting and now we've and
9:39
Speaker 2: then it was like we're bud. She's my second mother.
9:43
Speaker 2: I call her every anniversary. That on Matthew's.
9:47
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
9:48
Speaker 2: Really, after the film, I went and did some speaking
9:51
Speaker 2: engagements with her because she's she's like a motivation speaker,
9:54
Speaker 2: but she speaks at all these big events and I
9:58
Speaker 2: actually traveled with her for a bunch of them with
10:01
Speaker 2: the Matthew Shepard Foundation.
10:02
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
10:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a Deer. I love her to death and
10:05
Speaker 2: I love everything that she's about. She's a very powerful
10:08
Speaker 2: woman and somebody that I, yeah, that I have the
10:12
Speaker 2: utmost respect for.
10:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my gosh, this is like what a gift
10:18
Speaker 3: for her, I mean and for you.
10:20
Speaker 5: But that's just like, yeah, it was tough, the very
10:26
Speaker 5: tough shooting the show. It was a tough I mean,
10:29
Speaker 5: it was like four or five weeks in Toronto at least,
10:32
Speaker 5: and it was just I mean, you saw the film.
10:34
Speaker 5: There were some very difficult things to portray and some dark, dark,
10:39
Speaker 5: dark moments, and it's a dark film at the start
10:41
Speaker 5: of the film, and that's why it was beautiful, because
10:43
Speaker 5: it's like this horrendous. The first thirty seconds of that
10:46
Speaker 5: film is so brutal.
10:48
Speaker 3: It is you know, I think this is really interesting
10:50
Speaker 3: because how a story is told is so vital to
10:56
Speaker 3: these kinds of things. And it's like you have a
10:59
Speaker 3: choice of either like leaning into the violence or not,
11:04
Speaker 3: and there is power in both of those things. And
11:06
Speaker 3: I just interviewed Jerrelle Jerome about when they see us
11:09
Speaker 3: and they that series, which is so powerful and phenomenal,
11:13
Speaker 3: They they very much don't show a lot of the
11:16
Speaker 3: violence in a way that is really impactful. And this
11:21
Speaker 3: I was like, the first thirty seconds of this, it
11:24
Speaker 3: is so powerful and so arresting, and I think it
11:28
Speaker 3: is it's vital that the film starts that way because
11:32
Speaker 3: it like it just it puts it in your face.
11:35
Speaker 1: This like just despicable violence, like this hatred that.
11:41
Speaker 4: Is so unfathomable.
11:45
Speaker 1: It's like you can't believe it.
11:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember when so Roger spots with the director,
11:51
Speaker 2: gave me a cut of it, like this is year
11:55
Speaker 2: after but yeah, probably more than a year. And I
11:59
Speaker 2: had a cut of it and I took it to
12:00
Speaker 2: I live in my family's in Saskatchewan, so all my
12:03
Speaker 2: aunt's nuckles and everybody lives in Saskatchewan. So I went
12:06
Speaker 2: home for Christmas and we did like a I probably
12:09
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to do this, but I did like a
12:12
Speaker 2: private screening with like all my cousins and nuncles. It's
12:16
Speaker 2: probably fifteen of us, and I put it on and
12:20
Speaker 2: nobody said a word. As soon as the film started,
12:23
Speaker 2: nobody said a word. For whatever. It is an hour
12:26
Speaker 2: and a half. A mother to this day still hasn't
12:29
Speaker 2: seen it. My birth mother still hasn't. She hasn't. She
12:33
Speaker 2: can't ye get through that first, you know, that first
12:37
Speaker 2: four or five minutes of it, and she knows how,
12:41
Speaker 2: you know, she's tried to get through, but it's just
12:43
Speaker 2: so she just can't. It's just too difficult to watch.
12:45
Speaker 2: And yeah, it has and that's why I kind of
12:50
Speaker 2: I did love the writing in that sense where it
12:53
Speaker 2: hits hard because it's a very hard and hateful crime
12:58
Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, the whole film isn't like that,
13:01
Speaker 2: but it needs to grab you for the yes, a
13:03
Speaker 2: few minutes, and it certainly does that with the I mean,
13:06
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's like a sound Yeah, that's
13:08
Speaker 2: what I was just about to mention rapid dogs. Yes,
13:12
Speaker 2: I mean the hitting and it's just yeah, it was.
13:15
Speaker 2: It's tough.
13:17
Speaker 1: It is very, very very powerful and I so these.
13:25
Speaker 3: How did you even process? Like how how did you
13:30
Speaker 3: emotionally process all of that?
13:32
Speaker 1: As an actor on? Like, I don't even know how
13:36
Speaker 1: you I man, I.
13:38
Speaker 2: Would say, like, I have never been a you know,
13:41
Speaker 2: I've been an actor for twenty seven years prior to that,
13:45
Speaker 2: well twenty five years prior, twenty years prior, but I
13:48
Speaker 2: I it really was a method style actor. But this
13:52
Speaker 2: one I certainly did jump right into it. I mean,
13:56
Speaker 2: it was evident from the physical transformation I started when
14:00
Speaker 2: I remember getting into these I fly in and I
14:03
Speaker 2: meet Roger and you know, we're going for dinner and stuff,
14:06
Speaker 2: and he's like, he didn't realize that my hair was
14:09
Speaker 2: almost like it is right now. I was fairly sure.
14:11
Speaker 2: And Matthew and all the photographs. You know, he's got
14:14
Speaker 2: these long locks, beautiful locks too, So he's like, we
14:18
Speaker 2: got to get your hair. I don't know how we're
14:20
Speaker 2: going to do that. We got to get some extensions
14:21
Speaker 2: in there. I was like, hey man, do what you
14:23
Speaker 2: need to do. So spent about four and a half
14:26
Speaker 2: to five hours and getting.
14:28
Speaker 1: Old Welcome to the world of the ladies. It's sitting
14:31
Speaker 1: in that chair.
14:32
Speaker 2: For so they hurt, and then they had to diet
14:35
Speaker 2: a certain color. And as soon as I looked at
14:39
Speaker 2: myself with wardrobe on and the hair, I was like, okay,
14:44
Speaker 2: this is and it's it's really start. So I I
14:48
Speaker 2: went pretty heavy into like the method style, and I
14:51
Speaker 2: was I was really I was again still doing research
14:54
Speaker 2: on him, and you know, I just kind of embraced it,
14:58
Speaker 2: and I had to set rate myself as soon as
15:01
Speaker 2: I remember going in the elevator. Remember some funny story
15:04
Speaker 2: that that there's one hotel that every all the actors,
15:07
Speaker 2: Sutton Place Place. Yeah, yeah there. Remember the second or
15:12
Speaker 2: third day, I was so exhausted, you know, thirteen fourteen
15:15
Speaker 2: hour days, lots of time in the hair makeup trailer,
15:18
Speaker 2: and I remember exhausted hitting the elevator button. Man, it's
15:22
Speaker 2: about to close, and then this actor comes. I recognized
15:26
Speaker 2: him right away, was blanking on his name, Scott Scott
15:30
Speaker 2: something from Party of the Party of five.
15:32
Speaker 1: Anyways, Scott Wolf, Scott Wolf, Scott Wolf.
15:34
Speaker 2: But he looks at me, and I look at him,
15:36
Speaker 2: and I'm like, how's it going?
15:37
Speaker 4: Man?
15:37
Speaker 2: He goes good, he goes long, long day shooting, and
15:40
Speaker 2: I go, yees.
15:41
Speaker 1: It is like a frat house and it's just fun.
15:44
Speaker 2: I'm like, what are you in town shooting? He's like,
15:46
Speaker 2: I'm doing this TV or this film that. He's like,
15:48
Speaker 2: what are you doing? I'm like, I'm doing this Matthew
15:50
Speaker 2: Shepherd things like cool man, And then the elevator opens.
15:52
Speaker 1: We both leave, right, It's so funny like that, Yeah,
15:56
Speaker 1: it is, it is.
15:58
Speaker 2: But my point being that, like when I got to
16:00
Speaker 2: the hotel, it was like Shane comes out and I
16:03
Speaker 2: can eat dinner and have fun and that thing. But
16:06
Speaker 2: when it's when I get into the truck, you're the
16:09
Speaker 2: car going to set, it's like a kind of transformation.
16:12
Speaker 2: And I really wanted to It's there was a lot
16:15
Speaker 2: of pressure because it's like you're portraying it the first
16:17
Speaker 2: time I've portrayed somebody in real life. It's like, right,
16:20
Speaker 2: his mother is right there.
16:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, was she on set? Did she come to set well.
16:25
Speaker 2: That first week? Yeah, because we had all the press,
16:27
Speaker 2: We were doing all the whole boatload of press interviews
16:30
Speaker 2: and stuff, and she was there for you know, for
16:33
Speaker 2: three or four days of it anyways. So and even
16:35
Speaker 2: if she wasn't, I still got a you know, the
16:39
Speaker 2: footage is gonna come out at some point, and you
16:41
Speaker 2: better do a good job totally that you've got you
16:44
Speaker 2: know Stocker Channing, right, I mean right, Yeah. So it
16:50
Speaker 2: was our Goldie Hawn produced it. Yeah, got all these
16:53
Speaker 2: A list celebrities. There's like, if you don't have your
16:56
Speaker 2: pardoner mind my language, we've done your ship together.
16:59
Speaker 1: You're out together, and you better get it together. Yes.
17:04
Speaker 3: So the men that were convicted of killing him, they
17:07
Speaker 3: met Matthew at a bar that night and gained his
17:10
Speaker 3: trust and said they were going.
17:11
Speaker 1: To drive him home.
17:13
Speaker 3: Is all of that, is that portrayal grounded in the
17:15
Speaker 3: known facts of the case, that that's what happened.
17:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to get I mean, what's come out
17:21
Speaker 2: is a lot of people say that it's he was
17:24
Speaker 2: buying drugs from them or something, and you're going to
17:27
Speaker 2: get a lot Yeah, yeah, controversy. You know, that's just
17:31
Speaker 2: what the internet trolls do. Yeah, the bottom line is
17:35
Speaker 2: that they you know, they they're they convinced this guy
17:39
Speaker 2: that they were gay and and well, yeah, we'll give
17:41
Speaker 2: you right home, Like that's uh. And they I mean
17:44
Speaker 2: they drove him twenty five or thirty minutes outside of town.
17:47
Speaker 2: I mean, so that's you know, and there's two of them,
17:50
Speaker 2: so you know, I can imagine what he was thinking
17:53
Speaker 2: prior to them. But yeah, you're going to get You're
17:56
Speaker 2: going to get people that are obviously going to, you know,
17:58
Speaker 2: try to stir up the pot of it and say
18:00
Speaker 2: that he was doing something different or whatever.
18:03
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think that that sort of violence
18:06
Speaker 3: and that kind of response is you know, based in
18:09
Speaker 3: someone buying drunk, like it just doesn't make it.
18:11
Speaker 1: That is like a deep seated.
18:14
Speaker 2: Hate that's exactly good it is. And these it's Larynie,
18:18
Speaker 2: have you been like I grew up in Saskatchewan, Northern Saskatchewan,
18:21
Speaker 2: which is literally right below or right above. Yeah, so
18:26
Speaker 2: it's hate to say, but it's a lot of rednecks.
18:28
Speaker 2: It's a lot of people that are like, you don't
18:30
Speaker 2: belong here, like you don't what are you doing here?
18:33
Speaker 2: So it's it's you know, that's why he moved to Denver,
18:36
Speaker 2: and there's a little bit more sence in Denver with
18:39
Speaker 2: the gay community. But yeah, it's you know, if you're
18:44
Speaker 2: if you're gay in these rural areas, you're going to
18:47
Speaker 2: stand out and people don't don't like it.
18:49
Speaker 3: And it's amazing that it seems that his his spirit
18:54
Speaker 3: was so just so so bright, like any I obviously
18:58
Speaker 3: I've never met him, I didn't know him, but any
19:01
Speaker 3: images that I see of him, and he just and
19:04
Speaker 3: everyone says that he was very much out as a
19:08
Speaker 3: gay young person and in difficult environments like that. There's
19:14
Speaker 3: something just incredibly powerful about being able to stand in
19:18
Speaker 3: the truth of who you are under those circumstances against
19:22
Speaker 3: people that they want nothing but for you to fail,
19:25
Speaker 3: you know, And he had such a like there's something
19:29
Speaker 3: really powerful about that.
19:31
Speaker 2: I think agreed, Yeah, he I mean he had a
19:37
Speaker 2: difficult time coming out obviously that there's a scene in
19:39
Speaker 2: the film where he comes out to his mom hat
19:41
Speaker 2: you know, around his campfire, and you know, I don't
19:43
Speaker 2: know how much of that is based on actions? Did
19:45
Speaker 2: that Actually? Had I ever talked to Judy about that? Actually,
19:48
Speaker 2: it's Facer bringing it up right now. I'm like, I
19:49
Speaker 2: actually didn't ask actually ask her how he how he
19:53
Speaker 2: first came out of the Yeah, you know with them,
19:56
Speaker 2: But I thought that scene, I still I had that
19:57
Speaker 2: scene on my my demo tape for years. It was
20:00
Speaker 2: such a actually there's a there's this weird story behind
20:03
Speaker 2: that scene too, but you know, the the emotion where
20:06
Speaker 2: he's like he's frustrated, He's like get it, like you're
20:09
Speaker 2: not understanding it, and then his dad he just goes,
20:13
Speaker 2: who Cares? Yeah, like a big deal, we get you know,
20:18
Speaker 2: you know. So it's like all this pressure that was
20:20
Speaker 2: built up on him and then he just kind of let.
20:23
Speaker 1: It out and and it's a great scene, like a
20:26
Speaker 1: big deal.
20:26
Speaker 2: We still love Who Cares? Very very powerful scene, difficulty
20:32
Speaker 2: to shoot, very and more not more of a technical
20:35
Speaker 2: There was rewrites on that scene, like oh really, oh god.
20:39
Speaker 2: It was like, you know, we showed up, it was
20:41
Speaker 2: a night shoot. So I show up at nine pm
20:43
Speaker 2: getting the makeup. Roger knocks on my door, says, there's
20:47
Speaker 2: some rewrites.
20:48
Speaker 1: And we're going to do a whole new Yeah.
20:51
Speaker 2: Basically like there's rewrites nighting in real time and we're
20:56
Speaker 2: going to get it to you in the next few hours.
20:58
Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, So knalk on the trailer door
21:02
Speaker 2: and I literally like, here's four page, four pages of dialogue.
21:07
Speaker 3: One of the most important plot points in the movie.
21:11
Speaker 2: Like yeah, so you could imagine me. I'm like, oh god,
21:15
Speaker 2: I said, listen, I'm gonna do the best job I can,
21:17
Speaker 2: but you know I might and I did. But a
21:20
Speaker 2: lot of some of it was, you know, I told
21:22
Speaker 2: Stockard and Sam I was like, you know, if I
21:26
Speaker 2: flebble on, I'm going to kind of improvise, And because
21:29
Speaker 2: you're in that moment, it's just kind of it builds
21:32
Speaker 2: up until I'm gay I do it with other guys, Dad,
21:35
Speaker 2: and then he's like, so like that's the crux, right,
21:38
Speaker 2: So it was tough. There was steady cam and you know,
21:43
Speaker 2: big like dollies and multiple cameras and a lot of pressure.
21:47
Speaker 2: But it was one of the it's probably the most difficult,
21:51
Speaker 2: difficult time at shooting then.
21:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and that's one of those scenes that
21:55
Speaker 3: any young gay person has gone through it.
21:59
Speaker 1: You know, every one has some sort.
22:01
Speaker 3: Of identification with that, right who's had to come out
22:03
Speaker 3: to their parents or their communities. So like it's it's
22:07
Speaker 3: such a it's an important part of the whole story.
22:11
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah.
22:12
Speaker 6: Yeah.
22:27
Speaker 3: One of the most powerful themes in the film and
22:31
Speaker 3: also in I think their lives is that Judy and
22:34
Speaker 3: Dennis they ultimately choose to not seek the death penalty
22:38
Speaker 3: for both Aaron McKinnie and Russell Henderson, who were convicted
22:41
Speaker 3: of murdering him, so they were eventually sentenced to life
22:45
Speaker 3: in prison. Did Judy ever talk about that decision while
22:49
Speaker 3: you were making the film?
22:51
Speaker 2: Never talked to her, and we had a you know,
22:54
Speaker 2: multiple conversations about other things, but was never even brought up.
22:59
Speaker 2: I don't know why. I don't know if it was.
23:00
Speaker 2: I don't know if she's trying to separate it and
23:02
Speaker 2: just move all with her life. But it was never
23:06
Speaker 2: it was never brought up like offset or socially with her.
23:10
Speaker 2: I think it's I mean, if you're if if you're
23:14
Speaker 2: asking my opinion on how that's like what the decision
23:18
Speaker 2: that they made that they were that they did, it
23:21
Speaker 2: comes down and just like that's how they are. It's
23:24
Speaker 2: just clap like there, it's why would they want to take,
23:29
Speaker 2: you know, another two lives of somebody? You know? Like
23:34
Speaker 2: Dennis's speech is like that was powerful. It's like so
23:38
Speaker 2: good to take your life. I want you to sit
23:40
Speaker 2: there every Father's Day and every birthday and all to
23:44
Speaker 2: think about the life that you took of mine.
23:47
Speaker 3: That is another That speech is brilliant. It's a great
23:51
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful scene in the in the movie.
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was too there. I forget, man,
23:56
Speaker 2: it's been so long twenty five years since we shot this.
23:59
Speaker 2: But the actor that portrayed I think it was McKinney
24:03
Speaker 2: that he actually started crying like in the show.
24:06
Speaker 1: Like he I was wondering that.
24:08
Speaker 2: It was like I remember talking to Roger about it,
24:11
Speaker 2: Roger or Stockard one of them, and they were like
24:13
Speaker 2: he actually in the rehearsals and stuff, just started crying
24:17
Speaker 2: it looked.
24:18
Speaker 3: Very very very authentic, like it was like he couldn't
24:23
Speaker 3: stop himself.
24:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, act great guy.
24:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, I mean most you know, most actors never
24:29
Speaker 3: have the opportunity to ask the victim's parents what their
24:33
Speaker 3: child was really like. Did you what did Judy or
24:37
Speaker 3: Dennis tell you about Matthew?
24:40
Speaker 2: Well, you know, they he was just full of life,
24:44
Speaker 2: you know, like a lot of it was the traveling
24:47
Speaker 2: and stuff like you know anybody Saudi like they were
24:50
Speaker 2: in Saudi Arabia quote often, and the whole Morocco thing.
24:54
Speaker 3: Right, so that yeah, they say in the did they
24:58
Speaker 3: talk about that with you?
24:59
Speaker 1: That Morocca?
25:00
Speaker 2: They said that something bad, I mean, something negative happened.
25:04
Speaker 2: And I don't know if Hollywood is making it like
25:07
Speaker 2: I think what happened is pretty accurate in the film,
25:11
Speaker 2: which was extremely difficult to shoot too. But they didn't
25:15
Speaker 2: they never dove deep into it. They you know, it's
25:17
Speaker 2: kind of a private thing. You're not gonna sure, you know,
25:20
Speaker 2: I don't even know if they knew what actually happened,
25:23
Speaker 2: but I know that he was beaten and fit and
25:25
Speaker 2: physically assaulted put it that way. But you know, they
25:30
Speaker 2: they Judy would always talk about you know, he was
25:32
Speaker 2: just full of life, just a fun, fun, funny, full
25:36
Speaker 2: of life guy. And it was She said that the
25:39
Speaker 2: our personalities were very very similar because I'm always like
25:44
Speaker 2: the ball party and having fun and and she's like
25:49
Speaker 2: he was. He was very much like that as well.
25:50
Speaker 2: He was always like wanted to make sure everybody was
25:53
Speaker 2: having fun.
25:54
Speaker 3: Right, I mean that is just that is incredibly special,
25:58
Speaker 3: Like it really is. And you can see like you
26:01
Speaker 3: have on sc I because again I never met Matthew
26:06
Speaker 3: and didn't know him, and watching I or seeing images
26:10
Speaker 3: of you as him and Matthew, I would I didn't really,
26:14
Speaker 3: I couldn't tell the difference, like I would think, oh wait,
26:17
Speaker 3: is that the actor or is that really Matthew?
26:20
Speaker 1: Like it's it's wild.
26:22
Speaker 2: Yeah. She always said that he was always Yeah, like
26:25
Speaker 2: I said, he was the only always one that wanted
26:27
Speaker 2: to make sure that everybody was comfortable and having fun.
26:30
Speaker 2: And that's so deep because like the two people that
26:35
Speaker 2: murdered him were the opposite of that. Right, you're making
26:39
Speaker 2: me feel uncomfortable and you're you know, and we're gonna
26:42
Speaker 2: we're gonna punish you for that in a way that
26:44
Speaker 2: was so extreme that yeah, it's uh it's tough on him.
26:50
Speaker 1: Oh god.
26:52
Speaker 3: So that image of Matthew tied to the fence, it
26:57
Speaker 3: became one of the most haunting images and modern true crime.
27:02
Speaker 3: And there is a gorgeous Melissa Ethridge songs. You know
27:05
Speaker 3: this song Scarecrow, Oh Dear God, it's very haunting and powerful.
27:10
Speaker 2: And the Elton John song as well. Right, he wrote,
27:13
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I was based on Matthew Shepherd's So yep.
27:18
Speaker 1: It's wow.
27:20
Speaker 3: So did you were there any details of the crime
27:24
Speaker 3: like that that you read or the attack that you
27:28
Speaker 3: just you wish you hadn't known.
27:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, very great question, and yeah there was. It just
27:36
Speaker 2: got crazy goosebumps because I remember the actual fact, like
27:41
Speaker 2: this is actual facts. Is the lady that found or
27:44
Speaker 2: the person that found him, was looking across the field
27:48
Speaker 2: and was like, yeah, it looks I think something's caught
27:53
Speaker 2: like a wildlife or something is caught at Barbar. They
27:56
Speaker 2: thought it was Barbar fans, and you know that half
28:00
Speaker 2: a mile walk or whatever, the drive up and then
28:03
Speaker 2: realizing that it was an actual human but you couldn't
28:05
Speaker 2: tell that it was a human because you know, it's
28:08
Speaker 2: so badly pistol whipped. Yeah, I didn't I didn't. I
28:12
Speaker 2: remember going into the production office when I was doing
28:15
Speaker 2: wardrobe or something and Roger wanted to talk to me
28:17
Speaker 2: about The director wanted to talk to me about something,
28:19
Speaker 2: and her I bring a new office. He brings me
28:21
Speaker 2: into the office and I sit down and you know,
28:23
Speaker 2: all on his his walls are like FBI photos, like
28:28
Speaker 2: the actual photos and stuff. Now I didn't see any
28:32
Speaker 2: of Matthew in it, but I saw the fence for
28:34
Speaker 2: the first time and it was just like, oh wow,
28:36
Speaker 2: like that's the actual that's the actual crime scene right there.
28:41
Speaker 2: So that was just chilling. And yeah, I think that's
28:46
Speaker 2: probably the most powerful. One of the most powerful parts
28:48
Speaker 2: of the film. Is this this the you know, the
28:51
Speaker 2: you know, the policeman driving up and what it was
28:54
Speaker 2: and checking his pulse because you know, yes, I didn't
28:57
Speaker 2: even know what it was up to a mile.
28:59
Speaker 1: Of right, like recognizable as a human being.
29:02
Speaker 3: So was there any I mean, there are a lot
29:06
Speaker 3: of very difficult scenes to shoot, I'm sure, but was
29:09
Speaker 3: there any that you really dreaded filming because you knew
29:12
Speaker 3: it was going to be super painful?
29:16
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well there. That's the thing about this film is
29:18
Speaker 2: there were two or three, but the one that stands out.
29:20
Speaker 2: The worst was the actual in Morocco, the raping, like
29:26
Speaker 2: the oh, it was tough because it was you know there,
29:30
Speaker 2: it was a stunt. You bring in stunt guys for this.
29:33
Speaker 2: They were gentlemen, they were all awesome. And the one
29:35
Speaker 2: guy come up to the coordinator, who actually was one
29:39
Speaker 2: of the guys that did it, He's like, listen, I'm
29:41
Speaker 2: gonna we have to like thrust ourselves on you and
29:46
Speaker 2: hold you down. And I was like, that's you know,
29:48
Speaker 2: that's fine. And he's like, if wherever going a little
29:51
Speaker 2: bit too much or too physical, just just let us know.
29:54
Speaker 2: And we had a Roger was there and we had
29:56
Speaker 2: this code or we had a signal or something like that.
30:00
Speaker 2: I was like, how could how bad is it going
30:01
Speaker 2: to be? Like, it's not too too bad, and well man,
30:04
Speaker 2: because we rehearted a bunch. And then when they called
30:06
Speaker 2: the role and we actually shot it, it was just
30:09
Speaker 2: I never yeah, just I can't even talk right now.
30:13
Speaker 2: I can't even talk about it. It's just when somebody
30:15
Speaker 2: is physically, when somebody's holding you down and all you
30:19
Speaker 2: feel is just and your head is smashed into the
30:22
Speaker 2: I think there's a barrel of hay or something, and
30:25
Speaker 2: it was just a really really really really difficult scene
30:28
Speaker 2: to do, really difficult scene. And there was, like I said,
30:31
Speaker 2: there's three or four, but that was probably the one
30:34
Speaker 2: that takes precedent for sure.
30:36
Speaker 3: Right, How did did did how did production decide how
30:41
Speaker 3: much violence to show versus you know, insinuating or using imagination?
30:48
Speaker 1: Was there any how did they decide on That's a.
30:50
Speaker 2: Good question, and it's you know that lays down on Roger.
30:53
Speaker 2: Roger shot it, you know, great director, and he shot
30:58
Speaker 2: it in a way that shows it but doesn't show
31:03
Speaker 2: here's a here's a good example. So another difficult scene
31:07
Speaker 2: was was when we when he had Matthew has his
31:10
Speaker 2: first kiss and you know with heterosexual man. Look at
31:15
Speaker 2: the other actor was heterosexual too. So we kind of
31:17
Speaker 2: like I said, listen, man, this is going to be
31:19
Speaker 2: an awkward few hours, a few minutes. It's like hours
31:23
Speaker 2: of doing right, So I go, let's get this out
31:26
Speaker 2: of the way and let's have some fun. And we did.
31:28
Speaker 2: It was like I remember I had put cheesey's in
31:30
Speaker 2: my mouth, but when I went to kiss them and
31:32
Speaker 2: there's like crap in my mouth. But anyways, when we
31:36
Speaker 2: actually went to shooting in We're I'm kissing him, and
31:39
Speaker 2: it's just it's a pretty passionate kiss, and Roger was
31:42
Speaker 2: just while we're kissing it, you know, Roger the cake,
31:45
Speaker 2: now grab his grab the back of his head. It's
31:47
Speaker 2: passion Shane a little bit more so, he was doing
31:49
Speaker 2: that whole like soap opera thing. A little bit more
31:53
Speaker 2: now great now look in his eyes. And I just
31:55
Speaker 2: was like, oh, more of this do you actually need?
32:00
Speaker 2: But we made we made light of it. The point
32:01
Speaker 2: is that we made light of a very awkward situation.
32:05
Speaker 2: Another scene was I'm in the bathtub and I have
32:09
Speaker 2: to wear what we call a banana hammock. It's yeah,
32:12
Speaker 2: it's a nude color you know, thong basically, and it's
32:16
Speaker 2: the first time I've ever been naked half na ball
32:19
Speaker 2: more than had ninety naked in front of seventy five
32:22
Speaker 2: crew members. So I was just like, all right, let's
32:25
Speaker 2: get this out of the way. Everybody had a look
32:27
Speaker 2: like right here, I am. You need to make light
32:30
Speaker 2: of stuff like this in a very dark situation, and
32:36
Speaker 2: I think we did the best job we could at it.
32:39
Speaker 2: But yeah, there was there's some very awkward times in
32:42
Speaker 2: that film. But again, I would have wouldn't have traded
32:45
Speaker 2: in for the world.
32:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it really I thinking about that scene, the
32:51
Speaker 3: Morocco scene, the way it's you know, different from.
32:56
Speaker 1: Similar, because there is an.
32:57
Speaker 3: Element at the opening of the movie, but that feels
33:01
Speaker 3: so much more kind of really blatant in your face
33:05
Speaker 3: where you're feeling the violence, but there is still that
33:08
Speaker 3: kind of like at a certain point it becomes almost
33:11
Speaker 3: dreamy like, you know, and the same in the scene
33:16
Speaker 3: of Morocco, where it's like you very much feel what
33:21
Speaker 3: is going on there, but it's like not stark, you know,
33:25
Speaker 3: it's not so it's.
33:27
Speaker 1: Not exploitative, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
33:30
Speaker 2: You know, you're saying for sure it was. Again, that's
33:34
Speaker 2: all on Roger, you know, fantastic director. You got to
33:38
Speaker 2: do it classy. You can't do it trashy. You've got
33:41
Speaker 2: to give it what it's you know, you got to
33:42
Speaker 2: make sure that it leaves an impact. But it's not
33:44
Speaker 2: done like way over the top. Now, the first two
33:48
Speaker 2: minutes he went for and that's what the strip called for,
33:50
Speaker 2: and that's you know, like it was like, let's hit
33:53
Speaker 2: him hard because this is a hard crime and it
33:56
Speaker 2: needs to leave an impact.
33:58
Speaker 3: So it is I had forgot because I hadn't seen
34:01
Speaker 3: it in so many years. And then I watched it
34:03
Speaker 3: when I knew that we were going to speak today,
34:05
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, it all I went.
34:09
Speaker 3: I almost like blocked it out from watching it the
34:12
Speaker 3: first time.
34:13
Speaker 1: Is that strong? Like it's really.
34:16
Speaker 2: Tough scene to do. The first scene, like again, it
34:18
Speaker 2: was a night shoot and we were it was this
34:21
Speaker 2: huge crane shot. It was you know, in the middle
34:25
Speaker 2: of this field and it was cold in Toronto, and
34:28
Speaker 2: stunt coordinators like, you know, you're going to be going
34:32
Speaker 2: going like this like four or five hours, and you know,
34:36
Speaker 2: we had it rehearsed. It's like, you know, fifteen hits
34:40
Speaker 2: this way and then this way and then then just
34:42
Speaker 2: like you're you know, technically the muscles yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
34:47
Speaker 2: were incredibly sore for the next four or five days after,
34:52
Speaker 2: but again emotionally too as well, as I had to
34:55
Speaker 2: kind of step back because you're they you know, you're
34:57
Speaker 2: physically getting tied, you know, you props guy, that's like, okay,
35:01
Speaker 2: if you need to get out, you know, if you
35:03
Speaker 2: if you need to cut and get out real quick,
35:05
Speaker 2: here's how you do it. Right, right, But it was
35:08
Speaker 2: it was. Yeah, it was a tough one mentally.
35:12
Speaker 3: So the the the movie aired just a week after
35:17
Speaker 3: the HBO's The Laramie Project, and it focused less on
35:21
Speaker 3: Matthew himself and more on how the murder affected the
35:23
Speaker 3: town of Laramie. But did it feel like there was
35:26
Speaker 3: just a national conversation happening about Matthew's story and how
35:32
Speaker 3: it should be told?
35:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely does. There was. There was a lot
35:36
Speaker 2: of press, there was a lot of you know, a
35:38
Speaker 2: lot of hype on it. Two totally different programs, and
35:42
Speaker 2: then The Laramie Project turned into this big theater thing,
35:44
Speaker 2: which is amazing. But yeah, it was. It's and I
35:49
Speaker 2: brought this up early on. It's like back when hate
35:52
Speaker 2: crimes were like not a like, not an everyday occurrence.
35:57
Speaker 2: I forget who the there was a hate crime that happened, right,
36:01
Speaker 2: and I think in the same month that the Matthew ship.
36:03
Speaker 2: But the Matthew I want to say, Thomas Bird or
36:07
Speaker 2: James Bird I believe was, yes, James Bird junior. Yes,
36:12
Speaker 2: African American fellow that was again beaten and they they
36:15
Speaker 2: dragged him around a town. I forget where it was,
36:19
Speaker 2: but you know, those were two like kind of anomalies
36:24
Speaker 2: like oh my god, like why what's going on? And
36:26
Speaker 2: now you turn on the you turn on the news,
36:29
Speaker 2: they're happening daily. Kids are getting you know, murdered because
36:33
Speaker 2: they're trends or whatever it is. It's just it's terrifying
36:38
Speaker 2: how how how often it's happening, and how how many
36:43
Speaker 2: there are?
36:44
Speaker 1: How many there are? Did it?
36:46
Speaker 3: Did portraying Matthew change your own views in any way
36:49
Speaker 3: on prejudice or violence or no?
36:52
Speaker 2: Because just like Judy said, like I'm very I'm very
36:55
Speaker 2: much like Matthew in that sense, I could care less.
36:57
Speaker 2: You know, I don't care if I'm very neutral ground.
37:01
Speaker 2: You know, it's like I don't judge people by their
37:04
Speaker 2: skin color, their sexual the race, their religion. It's like humans, man,
37:09
Speaker 2: you know where there's a lot of humans living in
37:12
Speaker 2: a very small world and we all just need to
37:14
Speaker 2: get along if you don't have to agree with somebody,
37:17
Speaker 2: whether it's political, religion or or you know, sexual orientation,
37:22
Speaker 2: but just you don't have to kill them. Are you
37:24
Speaker 2: kidding me? Like it blows my mind.
37:27
Speaker 3: It blows my mind. Did you ever hear from any
37:30
Speaker 3: viewers who told you you know that the movie changed
37:34
Speaker 3: how they felt about LGBTQ people, or that they like
37:39
Speaker 3: what was people were People's personal responses to you, you know,
37:42
Speaker 3: are strangers.
37:43
Speaker 2: I still get. I mean I had two or three
37:46
Speaker 2: this past week where people just you know, private message
37:49
Speaker 2: me and they're like, wow, you need to know that
37:52
Speaker 2: your portrayal as him changed my life. And yeah, and
37:55
Speaker 2: just like it's it never stopped. I mean, they would
37:59
Speaker 2: come and go kind of thing. But and then when
38:02
Speaker 2: the film came out, it was kind of before social media.
38:04
Speaker 2: There wasn't really a lot of social media. I'm twenty
38:07
Speaker 2: three whatever, it is, twenty four years ago, so I didn't.
38:10
Speaker 2: I didn't. You know, I get some Facebook stuff, but
38:12
Speaker 2: Facebook is not like you know, Twitter, Instagram. Yes, but
38:16
Speaker 2: all the time and in Vancouver still, I mean, buddy,
38:21
Speaker 2: when was it? It was I was having a just
38:23
Speaker 2: a random beer on a street here in Vancouver and
38:26
Speaker 2: this bartender looked at me and he's just kind of staring.
38:28
Speaker 2: He goes, did you did you play Matthew Shepherd? And
38:32
Speaker 2: it's like, I did it, man, And he's like, oh
38:35
Speaker 2: my god. And he's like, I watched that film. I'm
38:37
Speaker 2: gay myself, and I thought you did a fantastic He
38:40
Speaker 2: bought me a beer and I was like, that's unbelievable. Man,
38:44
Speaker 2: twenty three years ago and this guy recognizes me. And
38:47
Speaker 2: I've been out of the industry for I don't know
38:49
Speaker 2: any of those years. So yeah, it it really left
38:54
Speaker 2: an impact with a lot of people, and whether they're
38:57
Speaker 2: gay or straight, but I get a lot of people
39:00
Speaker 2: still coming up to me, which is awesome. It melts me. Yeah,
39:05
Speaker 2: and you know, I I'm I always go out of
39:09
Speaker 2: my way to you know, if they want to take
39:10
Speaker 2: a photo or if they want to you know, I
39:13
Speaker 2: respond to every single one of the d ms where
39:15
Speaker 2: they am like, thank you so much for the kind words.
39:17
Speaker 2: You're amazing, you know, don't change because you're all love
39:21
Speaker 2: and yeah, right, you spread it.
39:24
Speaker 1: Oh, it's so important.
39:27
Speaker 3: The so the Matthew's murder eventually helped inspire federal hate
39:31
Speaker 3: crime legislation. It's called the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird
39:36
Speaker 3: Junior Hate Crimes Prevention Act. When you were making the film,
39:53
Speaker 3: did you have any sense that the story would still
39:56
Speaker 3: continue shaping public policy years later?
40:00
Speaker 2: Not at all. I mean I knew that when I
40:02
Speaker 2: went on the little speaking tour with Judy. I think
40:05
Speaker 2: we did like some engagements in Denver and and kind
40:09
Speaker 2: of around the area where speaking at schools and whatnot.
40:13
Speaker 2: I knew that she was all in and she's a
40:17
Speaker 2: great speaker, and the Matthew Shepherd Foundation was just growing
40:22
Speaker 2: and she was it was great to kind of be
40:25
Speaker 2: a part of that for a couple of months after
40:27
Speaker 2: and we did all these kind of toy drive things,
40:30
Speaker 2: and I was I would go to the Matthew Shepherd
40:32
Speaker 2: Foundation annual gala events where they would off the bears
40:36
Speaker 2: that we would do, and I would fly down from
40:38
Speaker 2: Vancouver and the you know, the Canadian kids come into town.
40:41
Speaker 2: And he was developed all these kind of friendships with
40:43
Speaker 2: everybody in the Matthew Shepherd Foundation and Judy and Dennis
40:46
Speaker 2: and all of this stuff, and it was I could
40:48
Speaker 2: see it kind of like building, but I did not
40:52
Speaker 2: know that, you know, it would it would go to
40:54
Speaker 2: like Congress and become this knew the Matthew Shepherd Act went.
40:57
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when that happened. I reached out
40:59
Speaker 2: to her and and just said, you know, I wasn't surprised.
41:04
Speaker 2: I knew that you were going to take this to
41:06
Speaker 2: the as high as you can take it. Yeah, I
41:09
Speaker 2: certainly did. Yeah, very proud of her. And again, she's
41:14
Speaker 2: like a second mother to me. And I love that woman.
41:16
Speaker 2: She's awesome.
41:18
Speaker 1: Oh what a blessing. You know.
41:20
Speaker 3: It's that we talk about this a lot in the
41:22
Speaker 3: show how You you know, you talk about some really
41:26
Speaker 3: horrific things that happen, and this choice that surviving people
41:31
Speaker 3: are left with, you know, of either to let it
41:35
Speaker 3: completely destroy you or turn it into something that is meaningful.
41:41
Speaker 3: And I'm always so deeply moved by the people that
41:44
Speaker 3: really take what they've been given and try to make
41:49
Speaker 3: change and make connection and you know, forge communication and change.
41:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she certainly has wonderful Yeah.
42:01
Speaker 3: If Matthew were alive today, what do you think would
42:04
Speaker 3: surprise him most about the impact his story has had
42:09
Speaker 3: on the world.
42:11
Speaker 2: Hmm, that is a good question. Well, I mean he'd
42:14
Speaker 2: be he certainly would be disappointed at the amount of
42:17
Speaker 2: crime and hate crimes that are continuing to happen. I
42:22
Speaker 2: think he would. Yeah, I think he'd be a little
42:24
Speaker 2: dumbfounded at that. But uh, I'd also like to think
42:29
Speaker 2: that he's a pause he you know, like we just
42:31
Speaker 2: talked about, he's a positive thinker and he'd like to
42:33
Speaker 2: think he would. There is change happening, whether his mother's
42:39
Speaker 2: doing it or somebody else, there there is slight change.
42:42
Speaker 2: Humans can can get kind of sweet like changed. It's
42:47
Speaker 2: not not every human is a is you know, a
42:50
Speaker 2: born as psychopath. So I think that he probably would
42:56
Speaker 2: have seen He probably looked at the at the at
42:58
Speaker 2: the brighter things have been like, you know what, like
42:59
Speaker 2: let's let's all just love each other a little bit more.
43:03
Speaker 2: And you know, that's that's kind of how I am too.
43:06
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, there's so much there's war going
43:09
Speaker 2: on right now, and there's everybody hates everybody, and there's
43:12
Speaker 2: so much separatism, and it's like, why do we have
43:15
Speaker 2: to be separate? Republican Democrat, k straight, you know, like
43:19
Speaker 2: it's like who cares? Like one of the things in
43:23
Speaker 2: Canada got some issues too. But I love the fact
43:26
Speaker 2: that we're a little bit more of a melt. We
43:28
Speaker 2: don't care like middle you could be Muslim, you could
43:31
Speaker 2: be see if you could be Christian like it, we're
43:35
Speaker 2: all part of this nation where it's all like a
43:37
Speaker 2: melting pot. And that's how I that's how I think
43:40
Speaker 2: it should be in the world. But Unfortunately it's not.
43:43
Speaker 2: And there's people in this world that are kind of
43:45
Speaker 2: even they want even more separatism, and it's just not
43:49
Speaker 2: it's a recipe for disaster.
43:51
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree with you more truly, truly, I I
43:57
Speaker 3: am just I've really, really I've enjoyed talking with you,
44:01
Speaker 3: and I'm so grateful that you took the time to
44:05
Speaker 3: do this, and I just absolutely love your spirit and
44:09
Speaker 3: that you're that you will continue to talk about this.
44:14
Speaker 3: It's it's it's a beautiful thing out of a horrific.
44:18
Speaker 2: I mean, like I said, I I love I love
44:21
Speaker 2: when people when it impacts people. To this day, twenty
44:25
Speaker 2: five years later and here I am talking about it
44:28
Speaker 2: just like I did, you know, a month after shooting it,
44:31
Speaker 2: so happily I was happy to do this. I'm loving
44:35
Speaker 2: people and spread the love.
44:37
Speaker 1: So what we say, so spread the love. I'm with you.
44:41
Speaker 2: Well.
44:41
Speaker 3: The Matthew Shepherd Story is streaming on Amazon Prime and
44:45
Speaker 3: probably some other places. I highly highly recommend it, and Shane,
44:51
Speaker 3: I've really love this time. Thank you so much.