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Workforce Strategy for Independent Pharmacy Owners | Executive Dose · Pharmacy Podcast Network

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Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
0:09
Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession.
0:10
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Pharmacy podcast Network.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to Executive Dose, the podcast where pharmaceutical leadership meets
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Speaker 1: unfiltered insight. Hosted by Stephen Beckman, CEO of Your All Pharma.
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Speaker 1: Each episode explores the complex forces shaping today's pharmaceutical industry,
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Speaker 1: from global supply chain stress and regulatory shakeups to innovation
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Speaker 1: in branded and generic drug markets. Join us as we
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Speaker 1: engage sea level leaders and decision makers in candid conversations
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Speaker 1: about navigating disruption, driving growth, and preparing for the next
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Speaker 1: era of pharmaceutical transformation. Curiosity leads, strategy follows. This is
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Speaker 1: the Executive Dose.
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Speaker 3: Hey, welcome back to the Executive Dose. We have a
1:12
Speaker 3: special opportunity to talk with a pharmacy owner and one
1:17
Speaker 3: of our partners IPC. Bill Drilling is the pharmacy owner
1:23
Speaker 3: of Drilling Pharmacy and Kelly Stovall is the VP of
1:27
Speaker 3: Pharmacy Services and Clinical Programs at IPC. This is going
1:32
Speaker 3: to be a dig down into workforce. How every sector
1:36
Speaker 3: of pharmacy is impacted by talent management and workforce and
1:42
Speaker 3: on this Executive Dose episode. Steven Beckman, our host, will
1:46
Speaker 3: sit down with Bill and Kelly to unpack how talent
1:50
Speaker 3: shortages are reshaping pharmacy operations.
1:54
Speaker 4: Steve Beckman, how.
1:55
Speaker 5: Are you, hey, Todd. It's a pleasure and welcome guys.
1:58
Speaker 5: We're so excited to have this conversation today. Every time
2:01
Speaker 5: we get one of these executive doses up on the air,
2:05
Speaker 5: people are learning a little bit more about pharmacy, about
2:09
Speaker 5: the opportunities and about the challenges. And as Todd said,
2:12
Speaker 5: one of the key topics is really look at workforce
2:15
Speaker 5: and how it's impacting you guys right now. But also
2:18
Speaker 5: we'll dig a little farther because really what we want
2:21
Speaker 5: to do is as we end twenty five and we
2:23
Speaker 5: start twenty six, we really want to move twenty six
2:29
Speaker 5: in a positive fashion and see what you guys are
2:33
Speaker 5: thinking are the big opportunities or challenges with pharmacy. But
2:38
Speaker 5: let's start with that main topic. So Bill, maybe you
2:40
Speaker 5: can kick us off. You know, as Todd said, we're
2:42
Speaker 5: really looking at how we're managing a pharmacy now from
2:45
Speaker 5: a workforce standpoint, and where are the challenges We're the opportunities.
2:48
Speaker 5: We hear there's a shortish of pharmacists, and we can't
2:51
Speaker 5: find good texts, and you know, the operational costs are
2:55
Speaker 5: making them more difficult to be fully staffed. So maybe
2:58
Speaker 5: from your perspective, it has been the biggest challenges that
3:02
Speaker 5: you faced as this and maybe some of your initial
3:04
Speaker 5: thoughts on how we can improve it and where that
3:07
Speaker 5: improvement can come from, because maybe it can come from
3:09
Speaker 5: somewhere that we at least expected. And then we'll turn
3:12
Speaker 5: it over to Kelly and we'll let her have a
3:14
Speaker 5: shot at that same question.
3:15
Speaker 6: But Bill, why don't you kick us off?
3:17
Speaker 7: Well, I think there is a lot of challenges coming
3:20
Speaker 7: up in twenty six, but I also think we're very
3:22
Speaker 7: fortunate because there's a lot of opportunities In Iowa. We
3:27
Speaker 7: have a standard of care framework for our practice acts,
3:31
Speaker 7: so anything that we are trained to do, we can do,
3:37
Speaker 7: and so it's really elevating the practice of pharmacy. The
3:42
Speaker 7: issue is is we just can't find enough employees. Right now,
3:47
Speaker 7: we're holding our own, but I could easily use two
3:51
Speaker 7: more technicians, I could use pharmacists and basically I'm hiring
3:57
Speaker 7: for every position. It's kind of frustrating because we just
4:02
Speaker 7: don't have the talent or the people around to pursue
4:08
Speaker 7: these new things we could be doing right now. We're
4:11
Speaker 7: doing hearing age, we're doing tests and treade, you know,
4:14
Speaker 7: lipid panels A one c's, and we're we're There's just
4:22
Speaker 7: so much more we could do, so much more we
4:24
Speaker 7: could bring to our community. And I keep thinking about
4:29
Speaker 7: a pharmacist. His pharmacy was like the IPC Pharmacy of
4:34
Speaker 7: the Year, and he was talking about how that he
4:38
Speaker 7: always had an extra employee or extra technician on staff
4:43
Speaker 7: for to make sure he was giving people good customer
4:46
Speaker 7: service to customer service it is deserved, but also so
4:50
Speaker 7: that he could do like a good opportunity to come up,
4:55
Speaker 7: he'd have the staffing to work on it. And I
4:58
Speaker 7: think about that a lot, how it would be nice
5:01
Speaker 7: if we had something like that, and I guess I would.
5:06
Speaker 7: I have one pharmacy technician that is working on our
5:11
Speaker 7: Advanced Tech degree where she's working on being certified for
5:19
Speaker 7: the tech check Tech, and we're really wanting to work
5:26
Speaker 7: with our technicians and develop them and walk them up
5:31
Speaker 7: the ladder because the more, the more and the better
5:34
Speaker 7: technicians we have, you know them, the more the pharmacy
5:38
Speaker 7: will be able to do for the community, the more
5:40
Speaker 7: services will be able to provide. But basically it's just
5:45
Speaker 7: just such a shortage of technicians. We just can't hire anybody,
5:50
Speaker 7: and we've we've tried about everything, but you know, I'm
5:55
Speaker 7: remaining optimistic and we're keeping keep trying. But it is
5:59
Speaker 7: for us trading. And another frustrating aspect is, you know,
6:04
Speaker 7: the reimbursement that we're getting from these PBMs, and and
6:11
Speaker 7: it's frustrating that every year we come some so close
6:15
Speaker 7: to getting a legislation or something run through at the
6:20
Speaker 7: federal level, at the last minute it gets pulled out.
6:23
Speaker 7: But I think if what people really need to do
6:28
Speaker 7: is they need to contact their legislators and you know,
6:33
Speaker 7: of course I'm the independent pharmacist, but they need to
6:37
Speaker 7: support their local independent pharmacies because we're really here, we're
6:41
Speaker 7: members of the community. This is where we want to be,
6:44
Speaker 7: this is where we're staying, and we're vested in the community.
6:48
Speaker 7: And so that's that's kind of my initial thoughts. But
6:53
Speaker 7: I think there is a lot of opportunity, a lot
6:55
Speaker 7: of reason to be optimistic in the future too.
6:58
Speaker 6: Well, Bill a lot on there.
7:00
Speaker 5: Before we jump to Kelly, a couple things first, of all,
7:02
Speaker 5: I couldn't agree with you more. And that's one of
7:04
Speaker 5: the reasons why your row has made such a focus
7:06
Speaker 5: on pharmacy, but importantly independent pharmacy. In fact, that's where
7:10
Speaker 5: I get my prescriptions from my local independent pharmacy, Perry Drug.
7:13
Speaker 5: And I've had a couple of health issues the last
7:16
Speaker 5: couple months, so I've actually spent a lot of time
7:17
Speaker 5: with them and their commitment to quality care patient despite
7:22
Speaker 5: having a lot of challenges. So a couple of things
7:25
Speaker 5: I heard were important is one is and I want
7:28
Speaker 5: to make sure I'm clear when we think about the pharmacy,
7:30
Speaker 5: we really have the pharmacy tech as you talked about,
7:32
Speaker 5: as well as the pharmacist. So you find that the
7:35
Speaker 5: opportunity is you can find pharmacists. That's still not as
7:39
Speaker 5: hard as finding the pharmacy tech. It sounds like that's
7:42
Speaker 5: more difficult. But are you also seeing that you're getting
7:45
Speaker 5: burnout because you've got a pharmacist working four extra hours
7:49
Speaker 5: a day than they probably should or so the real challenge,
7:53
Speaker 5: it sounds like for you is more pharmacy tech than pharmacy,
7:55
Speaker 5: but as the pharmacist, still a challenge that you're facing too.
7:58
Speaker 7: The big issue is pharmacy tax right now, we could
8:04
Speaker 7: use another pharmacist, but we're holding our own as far
8:10
Speaker 7: as we're people are not. We're trying to make sure
8:14
Speaker 7: people don't get burned out. We're holding our own. And
8:19
Speaker 7: the big thing is is like I would love to
8:22
Speaker 7: have a technician as a community health worker. I would
8:26
Speaker 7: love to have somebody training to do that, but I
8:28
Speaker 7: just don't have the personnel. And it's the technician shortage
8:36
Speaker 7: is kind of holding us down on what we can
8:40
Speaker 7: innovate in our business and what more services we can
8:44
Speaker 7: provide for the community. But and it's a thing where
8:49
Speaker 7: you know, we we we would gladly train them, you know,
8:54
Speaker 7: you know, walk them up the ladder to be an
8:56
Speaker 7: advanced deck or however far they wanted to go. But
9:00
Speaker 7: you know, we have our technicians trained to give immunizations
9:03
Speaker 7: and help with the tax test. Intrigued just what we're
9:07
Speaker 7: trying to do all the things to pre opt time
9:10
Speaker 7: for pharmacists so we can engage in the more clinical
9:14
Speaker 7: aspects of pharmacy.
9:16
Speaker 5: Well, I think, you know, that's really insightful and something
9:19
Speaker 5: that I personally haven't thought about as much is you know,
9:22
Speaker 5: when we think about pharmacy. We try to think about
9:25
Speaker 5: it holistically, but we always seem to start with the pharmacist.
9:28
Speaker 5: And I think the point that you made that a
9:30
Speaker 5: lot of people might not truly appreciate is the role
9:33
Speaker 5: that the pharma tech plays in delivering that engagement with
9:37
Speaker 5: the patient. But I think equally important is what you
9:40
Speaker 5: talked about in terms of trying to expand your services,
9:43
Speaker 5: and I think that's where independent pharmacy is going to
9:45
Speaker 5: continue to be leaned on a lot. But it's hard
9:48
Speaker 5: to do that and deliver that value if you don't
9:50
Speaker 5: have the resources our teams. So is the issue with
9:54
Speaker 5: pharmacy tech. There's not enough people going into it from
9:57
Speaker 5: a basic educational standpoint, or there's not enough resources or
10:02
Speaker 5: there I mean even from an operational standpoint, it's hard
10:05
Speaker 5: to fund multiple texts because of how the economics work.
10:08
Speaker 5: What's really driving the challenges behind not being able to
10:14
Speaker 5: add those extra techts or get the quality techs that
10:17
Speaker 5: you're looking for.
10:20
Speaker 7: Well, I think a lot of the problem is is
10:22
Speaker 7: that the idea of like certified or trained pharmacy tech
10:27
Speaker 7: has just come about in the last you know, maybe
10:31
Speaker 7: like ten years or so. So I think we're still
10:35
Speaker 7: trying to get the pipeline loaded with pharmacy technicians and
10:39
Speaker 7: trying to get the word out that this would be
10:41
Speaker 7: a good career for people. And at one time the
10:45
Speaker 7: job of a pharmacy tech was just to count the
10:48
Speaker 7: tablets and you put the labels on the bottle.
10:51
Speaker 6: And run descriptions through.
10:53
Speaker 7: Well, now it's such a diverse field that people can
10:58
Speaker 7: do that. I I think we have to get a
11:01
Speaker 7: better word out as to what they can do and
11:06
Speaker 7: what a big impact they can make in a pharmacy
11:08
Speaker 7: because you know, pharmacy technicians are rapidly becoming kind of
11:13
Speaker 7: the heart of the pharmacy.
11:15
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it kind of parallels for me, pas
11:17
Speaker 5: in the physician's office. You know, thirty or twenty years ago,
11:21
Speaker 5: they could do certain things in certain states, and obviously
11:23
Speaker 5: there's a state by state impact in that regard. But
11:26
Speaker 5: you know, in today's world, they can they can prescribe
11:29
Speaker 5: a lot more, they have a lot more ability to
11:31
Speaker 5: positively impact the office and the patient. So I think
11:34
Speaker 5: that's a good interesting observation that we have to give
11:39
Speaker 5: them the platform in which to do that.
11:41
Speaker 6: So let's turn over Kelly. Kelly.
11:42
Speaker 5: We're going to give you exact same question. You know,
11:44
Speaker 5: from your perspective, what do you see as the big
11:47
Speaker 5: challenges and opportunities as it relates to workforce for pharmacy.
11:51
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Steven, thank you for personally supporting
11:54
Speaker 2: independent pharmacy.
11:55
Speaker 4: We love to hear that.
11:56
Speaker 2: It was interesting to listen to bills explanation there and
12:01
Speaker 2: some of the struggles that he goes through. And I
12:03
Speaker 2: think that what is important to remember in this topic,
12:07
Speaker 2: in this category is that it's not just a workforce issue, right,
12:10
Speaker 2: it becomes these shortages becomes a patient care becomes a
12:14
Speaker 2: patient care issue and an innovation issue, which he mentioned.
12:19
Speaker 2: And on the pharmacy technician side, you know, I think
12:22
Speaker 2: that we have expanded the role of pharmacy technicians in
12:25
Speaker 2: response to a shortage of a pharmacist as well, and
12:30
Speaker 2: so it's almost like what came first, and you know,
12:34
Speaker 2: with the increased demands for pharmacy technician roles in patient care,
12:41
Speaker 2: whether it be as Bill shared some of the things
12:44
Speaker 2: that he is offering program wise point of care testing hearing,
12:49
Speaker 2: you know, as we move into more of a clinical space,
12:53
Speaker 2: into the pharmacy model than it requires different skill sets
12:58
Speaker 2: from this particular stat category and and so one of
13:03
Speaker 2: the challenges is then to find a pharmacy technicians that
13:10
Speaker 2: can grow in those areas. So I think that really
13:13
Speaker 2: adds to the complexity of this struggle that the industry
13:19
Speaker 2: is seeing. And statistically, you know, we we know that
13:24
Speaker 2: we are.
13:24
Speaker 4: Still seeing more.
13:27
Speaker 2: Job openings per year now than graduates of pharmacy schools.
13:32
Speaker 2: And so that as that grows, right or as that continues,
13:36
Speaker 2: you know that pharmacy pharmacist shortage will continue. And again,
13:42
Speaker 2: as we increase that clinical space in our pharmacy businesses,
13:48
Speaker 2: then those technicians will have to be more customized.
13:52
Speaker 4: For those roles.
13:53
Speaker 2: So there's there's really several things here that we can
13:57
Speaker 2: look at that are participating in this shortage that we're
14:00
Speaker 2: having right now.
14:01
Speaker 5: Yeah, so kel let's go back to the pharmacy thing.
14:03
Speaker 5: So the statistics, as you said, show that you have
14:06
Speaker 5: more positions than you have graduates. So I'm assuming that
14:10
Speaker 5: the overall rate of students has declined over the last
14:14
Speaker 5: period of time. So why is that is that? I mean, perceptually,
14:20
Speaker 5: if you're just you know, an average person, you might
14:22
Speaker 5: think you always hear how your pharmacists.
14:24
Speaker 6: Are overworked or or maybe they're over worked, underpaid.
14:27
Speaker 5: So what what do you think is really driving that is?
14:31
Speaker 5: Is it the is the is the extra hours if
14:33
Speaker 5: that's true, is that the pay doesn't commens rate with
14:37
Speaker 5: with those hours. It's the frustrating elements as Bill was
14:41
Speaker 5: alluding to a little bit in terms of the economics
14:43
Speaker 5: of running a pharmacy now, and it takes them away
14:47
Speaker 5: from that direct patient care and they're just trying to
14:50
Speaker 5: get prescriptions filled and handling all the you know what
14:53
Speaker 5: it comes with dealing with the you know, the PBMs
14:56
Speaker 5: and insurance what So what's really the under underlying actors
15:00
Speaker 5: to this? And you know, is there things that we
15:02
Speaker 5: can do either as a IPC you could do as
15:05
Speaker 5: a partner in this space, or even a manufacturer could
15:07
Speaker 5: think of ways to help create that value. Because I
15:10
Speaker 5: think you made a very important point, which is what
15:12
Speaker 5: we saw at your row, and that is I think
15:16
Speaker 5: I'll get this right. You correct me if I said wrong.
15:18
Speaker 5: Pharmacists are coming more into the clinical space and that's
15:23
Speaker 5: something we saw and we saw it was very important
15:25
Speaker 5: that the pharmacist is going to do that or is
15:29
Speaker 5: and it's going to do it even more so they
15:30
Speaker 5: play that bigger role or complementary role to the traditional physician.
15:36
Speaker 5: And I think if a pharmacist was able to really
15:38
Speaker 5: do that and do that with the way they would
15:40
Speaker 5: like to, then it would be a very rewarding uh.
15:43
Speaker 6: You know, role and position. But what are some of
15:45
Speaker 6: the underlying factors you think and can they be fixed?
15:50
Speaker 2: You know, economics obviously economics as as Bill mentioned PBM reinbursements.
15:55
Speaker 2: Pharmacies are struggling with financial economics, and so when profit
15:59
Speaker 2: margins shrink, of course what you are able to hire
16:03
Speaker 2: and pay changes. And I do think we have seen
16:07
Speaker 2: across the industry a decrease and overall salary, which historically
16:11
Speaker 2: was really a draw to a lot of graduates as well.
16:15
Speaker 2: And I also think we have to discuss perception too.
16:20
Speaker 2: Perception of the career matters for someone entering college.
16:27
Speaker 4: And I grew up in a very small town.
16:29
Speaker 2: And our community pharmacy was really the hub of healthcare
16:33
Speaker 2: in our area, and that was very attractive to me.
16:36
Speaker 2: I was, you know, I worked in a pharmacy in
16:38
Speaker 2: high school and that care piece, you know, drove me on.
16:43
Speaker 2: But you know, now we've seen with this profit margins
16:46
Speaker 2: that have decreased, even in independent pharmacy, right, But we've
16:48
Speaker 2: also there's a huge perception in overall industry, whether it
16:53
Speaker 2: be you know, large retail chains and and you know,
16:58
Speaker 2: we've all seen the pharmacist work that has a quota
17:01
Speaker 2: maybe at a larger retail chain or in some of
17:04
Speaker 2: the working conditions have been negative. And so that perception
17:06
Speaker 2: also changes a direction when you're looking at a group
17:12
Speaker 2: of people enter in college, like is that something they
17:14
Speaker 2: want to do?
17:16
Speaker 4: And so I think we can't ignore that as well.
17:20
Speaker 5: You know, I think we've seen that. I mean, look
17:23
Speaker 5: at I thought, right aid would not be in existence.
17:26
Speaker 7: You know, I like, can I jump in just for
17:28
Speaker 7: a moment, because I would like to say too that
17:32
Speaker 7: it seems like I think a lot of this stuff.
17:36
Speaker 7: What we're transitioning to is I can remember when we
17:40
Speaker 7: when pharmacies first started doing you know, flu shots, that
17:46
Speaker 7: people almost thought it was an American did a flu
17:49
Speaker 7: shot in a pharmacy. And I think we're at the
17:53
Speaker 7: same point right now with our test intry and our
17:57
Speaker 7: lipid panels and all. The new thing is that we're
18:00
Speaker 7: trying to innovate is that a lot of things is
18:04
Speaker 7: that we've got to educate the community on what we
18:09
Speaker 7: can do. But then that will also enhance the profession
18:13
Speaker 7: when you know, people come in and say, hey, I
18:16
Speaker 7: got my pharmacist was able to provide a treatment for
18:19
Speaker 7: my strep throat, or you know, I went to the
18:22
Speaker 7: pharmacy with the cold so or he is able to
18:25
Speaker 7: prescribe something for me. So I think a lot of
18:28
Speaker 7: it is the educational aspect of what we can do
18:32
Speaker 7: and kind of elevate the profession. But I think your
18:36
Speaker 7: analogy to a pharmacy physicians assistant and pharmacy tech was
18:45
Speaker 7: a very good one. But we've also got to elevate
18:48
Speaker 7: like the stature of a pharmacy technician that we're just
18:53
Speaker 7: not looking for somebody that wants a job, or we
18:57
Speaker 7: need somebody who wants a career as a pharmacy the
19:00
Speaker 7: technician and somebody who we can work with to elevate
19:05
Speaker 7: to the to the level where they can be where
19:07
Speaker 7: they can do a tech checking prescriptions or or you know,
19:11
Speaker 7: giving himanizations.
19:13
Speaker 5: So well, look at it. I think everything you said
19:16
Speaker 5: makes a lot of sense to me. I think there's
19:18
Speaker 5: a lot of factors right to Kelly's point, we had
19:20
Speaker 5: to think broadly and we have to be willing to
19:22
Speaker 5: talk about.
19:23
Speaker 6: So what I'm.
19:24
Speaker 5: Hearing so far is one, you know, compensation or economics
19:28
Speaker 5: is important. Two, we build to your point, we need
19:32
Speaker 5: to reshape not only pharmacy again pharmacists, but also the
19:36
Speaker 5: tech in terms of it being seen as a good career.
19:39
Speaker 5: And then the thing I think Kelly point out, which
19:42
Speaker 5: I really like, is we got to bring this back
19:45
Speaker 5: to the value proposition of care and patient care. And
19:51
Speaker 5: I think that's why a lot of independent pharmacists were
19:53
Speaker 5: independent pharmacists. I said, I get my prescriptions from an
19:56
Speaker 5: independent pharmacy. And I asked this pharmacist day, I said,
20:01
Speaker 5: why do you still do this with all the challenges
20:03
Speaker 5: faces Because because at the end of the day, I
20:05
Speaker 5: really care about my community. I care about people, and
20:08
Speaker 5: I care about treating them and helping them well. And
20:12
Speaker 5: I find myself having to do more of that.
20:14
Speaker 6: Now.
20:14
Speaker 5: You can either do that proactively or out of the
20:17
Speaker 5: reality of that environment where the patient needs a pharmacist,
20:21
Speaker 5: where they don't have access to other things. So I
20:24
Speaker 5: think we have to find a way to elevate that.
20:27
Speaker 5: So Kelly, maybe a question back to you is, you know,
20:30
Speaker 5: how how can we be collectively I mean That's really
20:34
Speaker 5: what the spirit of this podcast is about, is how
20:37
Speaker 5: do we, as IPC or al pharma, how do we
20:42
Speaker 5: work with the pharmacy, a pharmacist or pharmacy owner to
20:47
Speaker 5: help tackle some of these challenges that you guys rightly
20:50
Speaker 5: put out. Do you have any things that you think
20:52
Speaker 5: that we could put into that visionary box and try
20:54
Speaker 5: to move forward to positively in twenty six and beyond.
21:00
Speaker 8: That, we we have to be more I think aware
21:05
Speaker 8: of explaining what pharmacists do and pharmacy technicians and how
21:11
Speaker 8: and how both can really now be a really important
21:15
Speaker 8: member of the patient care cycle.
21:17
Speaker 4: That as we move.
21:19
Speaker 2: Forward in community care, public health, community access is that
21:26
Speaker 2: the position is we have to explain it in an
21:31
Speaker 2: attractive way, right and how it really does help people
21:34
Speaker 2: and help these communities, especially in rural access. You know,
21:37
Speaker 2: we have such an issue with rural access and rural
21:39
Speaker 2: health care now and really pharmacists are poised to be
21:42
Speaker 2: able to make such a big impact in that space.
21:45
Speaker 2: But I think we have to change the perception a
21:47
Speaker 2: little bit and we have to start at an earlier age.
21:51
Speaker 2: You know, perhaps we have campaigns on you know, pharmacists,
21:56
Speaker 2: what did pharmacists do you know what what is your
21:59
Speaker 2: commun unity pharmacy does it, how does it help the
22:02
Speaker 2: whole community? And really some pr on that, if you will,
22:06
Speaker 2: so we can attract at a younger age, and because
22:10
Speaker 2: I do feel like historically we have attracted at that
22:13
Speaker 2: younger age until just recently, I think we can make
22:18
Speaker 2: an impact there collaboratively.
22:22
Speaker 4: With that exposure. And I think ahead I was just.
22:26
Speaker 5: Going to say, and Todd's was smiling because and I
22:29
Speaker 5: was smiling for Todd because I think he's the probably
22:31
Speaker 5: the biggest PR advocate.
22:33
Speaker 6: For pharmacy out there.
22:34
Speaker 5: So it's almost like we're at a tipping point, right
22:38
Speaker 5: because we've seen like a big pharmacy chain like write
22:40
Speaker 5: Aid exit this year, I believe there's going to be
22:45
Speaker 5: a requirement to drive a renaissance into independent pharmacy again.
22:50
Speaker 5: But to that's point, we also have to be able
22:52
Speaker 5: to they have to be positioned to take on that
22:54
Speaker 5: responsibility that's kind of being forced on them with some
22:57
Speaker 5: of the changes through either the training education, and so
23:01
Speaker 5: maybe we're really at a tipping point, you know, whether
23:04
Speaker 5: it's a national chaine or inepent of pharmacy. Pharmacy is
23:06
Speaker 5: important because.
23:07
Speaker 6: At the end of the day.
23:08
Speaker 5: Your guys are the ones that interface with the patients
23:10
Speaker 5: and make sure they get their medication. So we can
23:12
Speaker 5: diagnose and we can treat all we want, but if
23:15
Speaker 5: we don't get that last part right, there's going to
23:18
Speaker 5: be failure and the outcomes that we're we're searching for everybody.
23:21
Speaker 5: As a manufacturer, I want to make sure that my
23:23
Speaker 5: price get to the right patients at the right time
23:25
Speaker 5: and there's not limitations. And the US pharmacists have the
23:28
Speaker 5: ability to deliver that when that happens, so we all
23:31
Speaker 5: play an important role on that. And you know, to
23:33
Speaker 5: go back to something Bill said at opening comments, and
23:37
Speaker 5: this one's a really hard one. This is probably a
23:39
Speaker 5: five podcast series is to talk about how do we
23:43
Speaker 5: change the system a little bit? How do how do
23:46
Speaker 5: we force positive change either at the state level or
23:49
Speaker 5: at the federal level to ensure that all the pieces
23:53
Speaker 5: of the pie are working together in a way that's
23:55
Speaker 5: equitable and valuable. And Bill, you don't have to answer question,
24:00
Speaker 5: but I did ask it of my independent pharmacy pharmacists.
24:03
Speaker 5: I go to who's the owner, and I said, because
24:06
Speaker 5: it's something we've faced with a product that we have
24:09
Speaker 5: in a therapeutic area where pharmacists are actually losing money
24:14
Speaker 5: to fill the prescription of this particular drug category. So
24:19
Speaker 5: and we have to change this because he said at
24:21
Speaker 5: fifty percent of his prescriptions that he's filling in his pharmacy,
24:26
Speaker 5: he's losing money because he's being reimbursed at a rate
24:29
Speaker 5: of four to seven dollars, and his average cost per
24:33
Speaker 5: fill all in in terms of operational costs and so forth,
24:37
Speaker 5: is around twelve dollars. So if that's if those numbers
24:42
Speaker 5: are true, if we don't fix that, we're going to
24:45
Speaker 5: make it difficult to address any of the things that
24:47
Speaker 5: you guys have brought up today. Hiring more people, hiring
24:51
Speaker 5: the right people, investing in those people to continue to develop.
24:54
Speaker 5: So you can project out all those things build that
24:58
Speaker 5: I can hear in your voice that you're passionate about
25:00
Speaker 5: in that quality care and what Kelly was talking about,
25:02
Speaker 5: whether it be diagnostics or others. So you know, what
25:06
Speaker 5: is what is the state of the pharmacy From that
25:09
Speaker 5: standpoint reimbursement.
25:13
Speaker 7: We're in a similar position. I would say that we
25:17
Speaker 7: have three buckets. One bucket is we're paid under cost.
25:22
Speaker 7: The other bucket is we're paid less than a dollar.
25:25
Speaker 7: And then the third bucket, which is rapidly shrinking, is
25:28
Speaker 7: the one where we're adequately reimbursed. And you know, it's
25:33
Speaker 7: almost an insult when you fill a prescription in your
25:37
Speaker 7: total reimbursement for your time, your bottle, your technician time
25:41
Speaker 7: is like ten cents. And but I mean it's it's
25:47
Speaker 7: scary the actual number of prescriptions that we sell under
25:51
Speaker 7: cost that just on the product side, that not adding
25:56
Speaker 7: in any of my any of my UH the cost
26:02
Speaker 7: of doing business. And you know, and that's why that
26:08
Speaker 7: we really need to get some legislation passed. I mean,
26:14
Speaker 7: there's really no other industry that this is would be acceptable,
26:18
Speaker 7: you know what I mean. And I don't know how
26:20
Speaker 7: we ever got in this position that we're accepting these
26:25
Speaker 7: these contracts.
26:27
Speaker 5: Well, I think, honestly, if whether manufacturer or pharmacists or
26:31
Speaker 5: PBM or pair, the system is not working efficiently. And
26:36
Speaker 5: I think that's builds where it's happened. And you know,
26:38
Speaker 5: the emphasis and focus UH has lost and and there's
26:42
Speaker 5: certain people look at the end of the day, we
26:45
Speaker 5: all have to do a better job, but we all
26:48
Speaker 5: have to be fairly profitable UH in order to continue
26:52
Speaker 5: to deliver the services that you do as pharmacists or
26:55
Speaker 5: manufacturers have the ability to invest in your drugs. So
26:59
Speaker 5: I think, I think our system has it's you know,
27:01
Speaker 5: I don't. I guess it would be easy to say,
27:03
Speaker 5: to get a headline to say our system is broken.
27:06
Speaker 5: But what I will say is the system needs to
27:08
Speaker 5: be improved and fixed. We have to take some things
27:12
Speaker 5: through the course of that supply chain, that value chain
27:15
Speaker 5: of bringing product to patient has to improve.
27:19
Speaker 6: And when we do that, we can do it.
27:21
Speaker 5: But even when I sit back and listen to the
27:23
Speaker 5: two of you talk, I mean, there's some things that
27:25
Speaker 5: really stand out. Look at We have to reinvigorate young
27:31
Speaker 5: people to see this as a career pharmacy. We have
27:35
Speaker 5: to re educate a re divide awareness about the importance
27:40
Speaker 5: and overall that pharmacy place, and pharmacists and the whole
27:44
Speaker 5: pharmacy place to patients and to others, because otherwise we're
27:50
Speaker 5: going to run into bigger problems we're I mean, we
27:52
Speaker 5: have the biggest drug shortage that we've ever had on
27:55
Speaker 5: the generic side industry because the industry is not working
27:58
Speaker 5: as well. If we get to the point where where
28:00
Speaker 5: large chains can't operate and independent pharmacists can't stay afloat,
28:04
Speaker 5: then we got a bigger problem. That means our patients
28:06
Speaker 5: are not going to be able to get their drugs,
28:08
Speaker 5: and they're not going to get the care and insight
28:10
Speaker 5: and experience that not only farm physicians play and nurses
28:16
Speaker 5: and everybody, but equally as important as the pharmacist. And
28:19
Speaker 5: now it's what I'm hearing from you guys is the
28:21
Speaker 5: pharmacy tech. So we've got to find a way to
28:25
Speaker 5: do that. And I think that's a couple of important
28:27
Speaker 5: notes that as a manufacturer I'm going to take home
28:30
Speaker 5: because we are talking and Kelly we I really would
28:33
Speaker 5: like I'm going to have to go back and ask
28:35
Speaker 5: my team why we haven't talked to IPC more directly,
28:38
Speaker 5: So we might have to have a talk about what
28:39
Speaker 5: we can collaborate with you guys on. But the point
28:42
Speaker 5: is that that collaboration has to happen because it's not
28:44
Speaker 5: going to come from any one point.
28:45
Speaker 6: And if we don't collaborate in.
28:47
Speaker 5: A way that's going to reinvigorate and compensate, we're we're
28:54
Speaker 5: going to have bigger challenges. And you know it's not
28:57
Speaker 5: going to get easier. It's going to get harder, and
28:59
Speaker 5: so that's really what we important to do. So Bill,
29:02
Speaker 5: if we were if I was to say, what are
29:04
Speaker 5: the three things that we have to do in twenty
29:06
Speaker 5: twenty six from your perspective that can help you be
29:11
Speaker 5: the best that you are as a pharmacy owner, what
29:14
Speaker 5: would those be? What would maybe I'll ask it this
29:16
Speaker 5: way on an earlier podcast, on a different podcast I
29:19
Speaker 5: did without this morning, asked me what was my New
29:21
Speaker 5: Year's resolution? So what what's your maybe not your new
29:25
Speaker 5: year's resolution, but your new year's wish? If you had
29:27
Speaker 5: three things that you wanted people to know can make
29:30
Speaker 5: a difference in twenty six, what would they be?
29:33
Speaker 7: Well, the first one would I think the problem we
29:35
Speaker 7: run into with it the PBM legislation is we just
29:39
Speaker 7: don't have the critical mass and of people that contacking
29:44
Speaker 7: our our legislators. I think if we could get a
29:49
Speaker 7: huge public outcry, that would be wonderful. The second thing
29:53
Speaker 7: would be the staffing issues, to get more uh, you know,
29:58
Speaker 7: more staffing in the pharmacy so we can do these
30:02
Speaker 7: more things. And the first third thing would be to
30:05
Speaker 7: get all these new clinical well not all of them,
30:08
Speaker 7: but to get started with more of these clinical and
30:12
Speaker 7: innovative ideas going in the pharmacy.
30:15
Speaker 5: All right, Well, I can't disagree with any one of those.
30:18
Speaker 5: I think the biggest one is to create a bigger,
30:21
Speaker 5: better voice. So I can tell you that Todd and
30:24
Speaker 5: through all the work he does, through his organization, through us,
30:27
Speaker 5: and we'll try to come up with a way to
30:29
Speaker 5: create a bigger voice to make sure that the issues
30:33
Speaker 5: are clearly heard. And I would think that if those issues,
30:37
Speaker 5: as you point out, are clearly heard, the conclusions that
30:41
Speaker 5: some things have to be improved or changed should not
30:44
Speaker 5: be a hard or a big leap of faith. Kelly,
30:47
Speaker 5: I'm going to ask you the same question from your
30:49
Speaker 5: perspective as we go into twenty six, what are the
30:51
Speaker 5: things that we think we could do? If we did,
30:54
Speaker 5: we would be coming back on this podcast a year
30:57
Speaker 5: from now and saying we achieved some success.
31:01
Speaker 2: I think we can for twenty twenty six because I'd
31:04
Speaker 2: like to introduce the idea of retention, right because not
31:07
Speaker 2: only is it recruiting, but we need to retain our
31:11
Speaker 2: employees as well so we can innovate, so we can grow.
31:15
Speaker 2: And I think when we look at retention, we can
31:18
Speaker 2: collaborate with programs that you know, increases leadership in both
31:22
Speaker 2: the pharmacy technician space and the pharmacist space, because that
31:26
Speaker 2: better leadership at the store level is going to decrease burnout, decrease, decrease,
31:33
Speaker 2: you know, losing staff that we that are critical to
31:36
Speaker 2: our to our business.
31:38
Speaker 4: So when we look at.
31:39
Speaker 2: A few of those things that can retain and really
31:43
Speaker 2: implement some of those things for career development, professional development,
31:47
Speaker 2: leadership development among our current staff, that will help us
31:50
Speaker 2: retain what we have and then attract others as well.
31:54
Speaker 2: I think I think it's important to always remember that
31:56
Speaker 2: retention is gaining right. Retention is great, and I think
32:00
Speaker 2: that's one thing we can certainly focus on for twenty
32:03
Speaker 2: twenty six.
32:04
Speaker 5: So guys, I think you know we might have the three.
32:06
Speaker 5: So the first one is we raise our share of
32:10
Speaker 5: voices we like to use in the marketing term for pharmacy.
32:15
Speaker 5: And we have to continue to inspire whether it's manufacturers, pharmacists, distributors,
32:22
Speaker 5: everybody to jump on the bandwagon a little bit in
32:28
Speaker 5: terms of creating a voice for pharmacy, which I think
32:30
Speaker 5: is important. Second, obviously to Bill's point, which is the
32:34
Speaker 5: obvious one, but a necessary one, is that we have
32:36
Speaker 5: to continue to be able to recruit.
32:39
Speaker 6: But Kelly, I qulindt agree with you more.
32:42
Speaker 5: When we look at infrastructure and HR issues, the first
32:46
Speaker 5: question should always be how do we recruit the best people?
32:50
Speaker 5: The second question, if it's not asked and you're not
32:53
Speaker 5: doing it right, is how do we retain those people?
32:56
Speaker 5: Retention is important, So I guess statistic and I don't
32:59
Speaker 5: know if Bill has the answer or maybe from his
33:01
Speaker 5: stores or Kelly, what is actually the average tenure of
33:08
Speaker 5: a tech in your store? They might go somewhere else,
33:10
Speaker 5: but what to put that in perspective so we can
33:13
Speaker 5: really reinforce this retention issue? What is the current retention
33:18
Speaker 5: of pharmacy tech?
33:19
Speaker 6: Bill? Kelly?
33:21
Speaker 7: Well, we've been very fortunate. Most of our technicians have
33:25
Speaker 7: been here with us for fifteen plus years. And one
33:30
Speaker 7: thing to speak about. I agree with Kelly about retention
33:33
Speaker 7: because if you hire a technician, it's just not like
33:37
Speaker 7: they're ready to go day one. It's a long training process.
33:41
Speaker 7: So is a huge issue.
33:44
Speaker 5: All right, but I'm not letting you off the hook
33:45
Speaker 5: before we go to Kelly real quick, because if you
33:47
Speaker 5: are retaining your texts for on average fifteen years, you
33:51
Speaker 5: got some kind of secret sauce you're doing something right.
33:54
Speaker 5: So Bill, share with everybody what you've done to keep
33:57
Speaker 5: your techs fifteen plus year. I mean, I think that
34:00
Speaker 5: there's got to be something that would be worthy to
34:02
Speaker 5: share with somebody. What what's your what's your magic?
34:05
Speaker 7: Well, we really try to make it a family environment,
34:09
Speaker 7: and we try to make the job and and and
34:12
Speaker 7: enjoy an enjoyable experience. And uh, we try to treat
34:19
Speaker 7: treat them like members of the family and and try
34:22
Speaker 7: to make them you realize that they're important and their
34:28
Speaker 7: voice is important and what we want to know their
34:30
Speaker 7: their opinions.
34:31
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I couldn't agree more. At your row, we
34:34
Speaker 6: we live that motto.
34:35
Speaker 5: We always say that individuals can do great things, but
34:38
Speaker 5: teams can do exceptional things. But you have to work
34:41
Speaker 5: and you have to bring them in. But Kelly, I
34:43
Speaker 5: know I kind of introduced that question to both of you.
34:45
Speaker 5: So from a retention standpoint, what are you seeing, maybe
34:48
Speaker 5: on a broader perspective and maybe Bill specific and are
34:53
Speaker 5: there things right from that that Obviously you mentioned education
34:57
Speaker 5: and certification and other things, but what are we really
35:03
Speaker 5: facing in terms of maybe you know, the actual numbers
35:06
Speaker 5: that's causing this problem.
35:07
Speaker 2: You know, I don't have the statistic, those statistics in
35:10
Speaker 2: front of me, but I'm now interested to go to
35:12
Speaker 2: go dig those up. I think Bill said it so well,
35:16
Speaker 2: and I think you know that when I was behind
35:19
Speaker 2: the counter.
35:20
Speaker 4: I'm no longer behind the counter, but I was behind
35:21
Speaker 4: the counter.
35:22
Speaker 2: You know, our technicians were a vital part of the business,
35:26
Speaker 2: and and they still are even become more vital. And
35:30
Speaker 2: you know, investing in them with with training and development
35:35
Speaker 2: matters a lot.
35:37
Speaker 4: You know, I think everyone.
35:38
Speaker 2: Wants to know they're that they're moving, they're not becoming
35:41
Speaker 2: stagnant in their career, and that's always a way that
35:44
Speaker 2: we can ensure that.
35:45
Speaker 4: But I think Bill said it the best. You know, it's.
35:49
Speaker 2: Really a team, it's a care team, and everyone has
35:53
Speaker 2: a very vital part in that team, and everyone wants
35:57
Speaker 2: to feel that and and so I think I think
36:00
Speaker 2: that's very important retaining your staff.
36:03
Speaker 5: Again, I couldn't agree more so as we start to
36:05
Speaker 5: wrap things up for today, I think obviously that that
36:10
Speaker 5: share of voice, that voice that will address the issue
36:13
Speaker 5: around reimbursement, the value proposition of pharmacy, and I think
36:20
Speaker 5: that's important. I think when we say pharmacy, we usually
36:23
Speaker 5: think pharmacist, and I think we have to make sure
36:26
Speaker 5: everybody truly understands it's a pharmacy, tech, pharmacy, owner, pharmacist
36:30
Speaker 5: all working together, and we need to raise the profile
36:35
Speaker 5: of that continuum of care or that that scope of
36:40
Speaker 5: care that pharmacy is bringing. And then in addition to
36:46
Speaker 5: that voice, hopefully we can start addressing some of the
36:48
Speaker 5: things that allow a pharmacy to truly move towards what
36:52
Speaker 5: I think Bill spoke to is being a truly capable
36:58
Speaker 5: part of the community in terms of healthcare on a
37:01
Speaker 5: broader scale. And then with those things happening, hopefully we
37:06
Speaker 5: can start seeing that acquisition because it's now seen more
37:11
Speaker 5: as a career again and putting it in a perspective
37:17
Speaker 5: where the retention is there because the value in which
37:20
Speaker 5: they believe they get in delivering.
37:23
Speaker 6: That type of care to patients.
37:25
Speaker 5: So I always like to give everybody a parting shot,
37:29
Speaker 5: and so we'll start with Kelly. Kelly, as we wind
37:33
Speaker 5: down the podcast, is there anything you'd like to tell
37:35
Speaker 5: to the pharmacy community through the PPN here, what you
37:42
Speaker 5: want to say on behalf of pharmacy.
37:46
Speaker 2: I think as we expand that patient care model, we
37:50
Speaker 2: have to really expand our thinking as well on how
37:55
Speaker 2: we recruit, how we train, how we develop our internal
38:00
Speaker 2: staff as well to support those needs that we are
38:05
Speaker 2: going to continually see. We're seeing now, but we'll continue
38:08
Speaker 2: to see throughout twenty twenty six and beyond.
38:13
Speaker 5: Well said Bill. Anything you'd like to share as we
38:17
Speaker 5: depart here today.
38:18
Speaker 7: Well, I think it's important to not be afraid to
38:22
Speaker 7: try new things and to always, you know, push the
38:26
Speaker 7: envelope and just remain positive and that you know we
38:32
Speaker 7: can do these things and we will get there.
38:36
Speaker 5: Well well said again, and Bill, that's what we try
38:39
Speaker 5: to do. We try to push the envelope, try new things,
38:42
Speaker 5: learn and it's never a failure if you've learned that
38:45
Speaker 5: something doesn't help, because then you can check that box
38:49
Speaker 5: off and go find something that does. So if either
38:51
Speaker 5: one of you ever identifies something you think a manufacturer,
38:56
Speaker 5: whether it be a generic company like ours or any manufacturer,
39:00
Speaker 5: can do to help you, please share it with us,
39:02
Speaker 5: because we like to think about it and in the
39:04
Speaker 5: same time, we wish you guys all continued success. I've
39:09
Speaker 5: been in this industry now on the manufacturing site for
39:14
Speaker 5: thirty five years.
39:17
Speaker 6: It's hard to believe it's been that long.
39:20
Speaker 5: I'm probably the farthest component to delivering patient outcome.
39:25
Speaker 6: The two of you are a lot closer to it.
39:27
Speaker 5: But I've always prided myself on trying to make sure
39:30
Speaker 5: that our organizations I work with, we're a true compliment
39:34
Speaker 5: to patient outcome. And I applaud you for what you do.
39:38
Speaker 5: I thank you for continuing to fight the good fight
39:42
Speaker 5: on behalf of patience. And my belief and I sure
39:46
Speaker 5: believe I am going to be right, is that the
39:49
Speaker 5: independent pharmacy in particular will continue to play a bigger,
39:55
Speaker 5: an important role, probably a role that they've always played
39:57
Speaker 5: but never really fully appreciated. But the conditions are going
40:01
Speaker 5: to be as such as that the independent pharmacy is
40:05
Speaker 5: going to be put back in that role in full force,
40:08
Speaker 5: and hopefully this time as we continue to challenge, whether
40:11
Speaker 5: it be changes in our system, whether it's to convince
40:15
Speaker 5: our politicians to continue to advocate, or just the community
40:20
Speaker 5: at large to advocate. Hopefully, when that happens, then the
40:25
Speaker 5: true light will be shined upon an apartment of independent
40:27
Speaker 5: pharmacy in a great way. And that should translate to
40:30
Speaker 5: what you guys said is to retain the best people
40:33
Speaker 5: that are passionate about a career in pharmacy, tech or pharmacy,
40:36
Speaker 5: and our patients will be well served for a long time.
40:39
Speaker 5: So with that, I'll turn it over back over to
40:42
Speaker 5: my good friend here to wind us down, but on
40:45
Speaker 5: behalf of the Executive Podcast Executive Dose Podcasts. We thank
40:51
Speaker 5: you guys for taking time during this holiday season to
40:53
Speaker 5: be with us.
40:53
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me.
40:55
Speaker 3: Special thank you to Kelly Stovall and the Independent Farm Cooperative.
41:00
Speaker 3: You guys are an amazing group, truly cares never have
41:04
Speaker 3: to worry about which way the compass points. It's always
41:07
Speaker 3: north with IPC and it's always about empowering the independent
41:12
Speaker 3: community pharmacy bill. This has been an absolute trait for us.
41:15
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being a guest on the
41:17
Speaker 3: Executive Dose. And to my co host Steve Beckman, thank
41:23
Speaker 3: you so much for your time and your insights day.
41:25
Speaker 3: This has been great.
41:26
Speaker 5: Well, we'll keep it going as long as people find
41:28
Speaker 5: value and hopefully the end of the day, you can
41:30
Speaker 5: ever go wrong with a good conversation.
41:32
Speaker 3: Happy New Year from the Executive Dose. Be sure to
41:35
Speaker 3: tune back in on all podcast platforms and subscribe at
41:39
Speaker 3: the Pharmacypodcast dot com.