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Reforming Church Leadership for Better Mental Health · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well now you're stepping out of the path of pure Christianity.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're not, man.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: The bottom line is, man, the quality of your life here and now is gonna improve.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Beloved, I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're the most important conversation happening in the church today.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's been an unhealthy parallel that's been kept separate for too long within discipleship.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be spiritually healthy and discipled if you're not emotionally healthy and discipled.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So many times our one dealt with emotion sabotage our spiritual growth and development.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is Pastor Armando Tomato, a licensed pastor and therapist to many pastors and other leaders around the world.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Similar to our very own pastor and counselor and host of the show, Chip Judd, Armando believes God can use in powerful ways a complementary partnership between the church and science community, as both camps are ultimately wanting people to simply live well and finish strong.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: You can check out some of his work that he's been up to at ministrywellbeing.org.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Pay to the church, and I'll be the helper did a lot of harm in the life of that person.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: That person had severe complex trauma.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think the truth that we have to understand, pastors need to understand this, is your blind spots will show up in the people God has entrusted to you to shepherd.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Every hang up you have, every blind spot you have, every point of trauma you have will always manifest in the people.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's from the top down for sure.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we have to recognize is pastors have to make room in their theology for mental health.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Pastors who are typically pretty sharp for the most part.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, dude, get some freaking help, please.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'll pay for it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: So at the macro level, I have to really check myself.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I can get worked up really fast.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is one of the filters I think through when I look at a leader.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: You teach what you know, you reproduce what you are.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: When you see a pastor that is shutting down the pain of others, it's because of those blind spots that that uh lack of courage or faith to move forward in their own healing.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have seen a pastor do his own work, the church literally becomes a well of healing.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Keep living well so you can finish strong.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And in the meantime, we'll be working on another episode that we hope and pray will be one of the many resources out there that can help you do so.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's Britney Gardner, and this is the Mental Health and Mission of the Church podcast with Pastor Chip Judd.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm back in the gym working out, lifting weights and less weight than I used to.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, I just I can't even wrap my head around it, to be honest with you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know you had a lot of people praying for you.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: The way I've said it to a couple people, and Joey, I don't know if you've even heard me say this.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I was in a movie and then it went to intermission, and I'm back in the movie.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like it's uh it's like you look around, it's the same scenery, but you realize you're you're in a different movie now.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's like, okay, God, what what's what's my role?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like what character am I playing?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: You guys haven't met, have you?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_04: Nope.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: Armando.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Armando, this is my friend Joey.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: He's extraordinarily immature, so be tender.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and he's a little slow on the uptake.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So third grade, third grade level.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kidding, man.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's awesome.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's awesome.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: But this is Armando, he's up in New York, the New York area.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure where you are in New York.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, okay.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_04: Nice to meet you, man.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: Nice to meet you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: As you can see, I I get a lot, I get the brunt of all of Pastor Chip's aggression.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: He stays healthy by just unleashing on me.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: But Joey, you know, and Armando, I don't know if you you you probably figured it out, but uh I figured out that sarcasm is my love language.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm not sarcastic with you a little bit, not necessarily I don't like you, but I don't feel safe enough to be yet.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Or sometimes I might think the person is fragile.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I try to be careful, but whatever.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's just talk a bit.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And Joey, you can kind of lead any way you want, jump in.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Both of you, just help direct it wherever it needs to go.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: We did a podcast that'll probably come out before this one, uh, and it'll be on YouTube and my podcast channel, and where we talked to pastors, straight up pastors, not counselors, looked at this subject of mental health and the mission of the church from that side, and uh this is to look at it from a counselor side.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: And Armando, you're similar to myself, you're both a pastor and a counselor.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: But if you would try to think like a like a counselor today, you know, from your education, from the the counselor peeps that you know and run with.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Try to think from that side because that's what this talks more about today.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, Pastor Chip, it may be interesting.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: You tell me if you don't like this, but it may be interesting to continue a little bit of what we left off on in that last episode, because I'd be really curious to hear.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I don't know, is it Dr.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: Mr.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: How should I say Armando?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a Southern boy, I gotta go respect, man.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Armando's good.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: All right, Armando.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: But I would love for him to hear how you talked about mental health awareness and mental health strengthening and and all of that is is basically what discipleship is.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: You need the Jesus part, obviously, because that's where the discipleship started was with the Heavenly Father, you know, and the Son of Man.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_04: But basically what we call mental health, we we sometimes try to parcel it out like, hey, you need to be spiritual healthy and have your quiet times and seek the Lord.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: You also need to watch out for your mental health and and be strong there.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think you mentioned how those really shouldn't be talked about in such isolated terms.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: I just I I would love to hear what he he would have to say about that if that's cool with you.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's let me phrase it this way, Armando, it's a question.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and you and I've talked a little bit, so you kind of know where I'm coming from, but what are you thinking when you hear the phrase mental health and the mission of the church?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then where can, should, could mental health psychology, and the kind of stuff we've learned in that world, how could that fit into a discipling track mindset?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like what would you say about all that?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can jump in on that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm inclined to agree with you on that.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I think there's been an unhealthy parallel that's been kept separate for too long within discipleship.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have the view you can't be spiritually uh healthy and discipled if you're not emotionally healthy and discipled.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: So many times our undealt with emotions sabotage our spiritual growth and development.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got this kind of perspective where somebody's like, oh, I matured spiritually, and yeah, they're speaking in tongues and they know the word, but they're treating their family members like trash, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the fruit of the spirit, actually require emotional growth.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And many times, if you're not dealing with your stuff, which is really a tool of the enemy, right?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of keep our wounds, our traumas, the things we don't want to deal with but below the surface, even though the word of God uh tells us that everything done in darkness needs to come out.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: God wants to heal our hearts, but many of us struggle with trusting God.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: We think that he wants to pull our broken parts out and hurt us when in reality it's to bring healing.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that healing actually will give birth to what the Holy Spirit's trying to do in our lives.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Galatians 5, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have any of that unless you deal with your emotional wounds.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then we become very often, I think, the hindrance to what the Holy Spirit wants to do, whether we're honest about it or not.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: We lie to ourselves, we rationalize, right?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: We give all the excuses in the world, and then we cover our behaviors with rationalization and projection, telling people, well, I wouldn't have gotten so mad if you didn't say that or do that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: We make other people responsible for our junk so that we can hold on to our over-spiritualization.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: But in reality, true health and healing requires us going beneath the iceberg, beneath the surface of life, dealing with those things, giving it to God.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a it's a parallel walk, not a dichotomy.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a parallel walk where we're like, God, we're gonna grow spiritually, but in order to do that, we're gonna give you access to our emotional health.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to be spiritually mature, one must be spiritually mature and emotionally mature.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it those are two batons we have to carry forward, otherwise, we're gonna have unhealthy leadership, unhealthy pastors, unhealthy churches.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of my initial gut response uh to that.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I mean, I've been at this so long, and in and I mean, we're talking since the 80s.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: You talk about uphill, it was way uphill back then.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and you talk about over-spiritualizing.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Woo, Jesus.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, as soon as I said that, I had a flashback.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I literally had someone ask me to cast a spirit of fingernail biting out of them.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Cast a spirit of fingernail biting out of them.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I am not kidding.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and that all the all that's I don't know why it hit me so funny.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: But um, people, whoa, whoa, let's back up here.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: Let's let's take a step back.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_04: Are you laughing at that?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm laughing at that one, but I'm also laughing at the way they were being led, the way they were being pastored, the way they were being shepherded.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: That they didn't think that was a dumb question or a dumb request.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: But that's part of what built that that seed in me, Armando, about we gotta do better, man.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: We we gotta figure this out because we're not pastoring people well.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I used to say it like this.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Most churches, I'll say back then, and I'll be honest, I would say most, being 51% or more, still would probably think this way.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and and the way they think is this psychology mental health counseling is a hospital over in the corner of the property, away from the mainstream of activities.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And every once in a while we we run into somebody that just telling them they need to pray more, read their Bible, play praise music around the house, isn't getting it done.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: So we send them almost off the property, if not actually off the property, to the hospital.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, my deal is we need to bring that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, we need to quit calling it a hospital, and we need to bring the the thought process, the understanding.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: The you don't have to be a counselor, but you gotta understand.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like again, there's no way to get where we need to go without talking some concepts in that that are they're part, they're there's their learning curve.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like one I like is your theory of human development.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: You have one.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Pastor, I'm telling you, you have one.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Counselor, you have one.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Joe Blow plumber has one.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And your theory of human development is how God designed this to work, what breaks, and how do you fix it?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's God's overall intention for why he created us, that kind of thing.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't have some kind of an understanding of that process, like a couple of them, what what breaks and when, and how can I fix it?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm one of those guys in Armanda, you you can say whether you are or not, that believe 80 to 90% of what you do with in your adult life goes back to your childhood.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if you understand that, you react to people differently.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I love this statement.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody's behavior doesn't make sense to you, there's a part of their story you're missing.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that in itself just gives you more grace for yourself because that's where you start applying this stuff.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: If your behavior doesn't make sense to you, you're missing a part of your story.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're not attributing the impact of some earlier season of your life to your current behavior and life.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: You look like you're thinking something, Armando.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean as I'm reflecting over what you're sharing, I mean, it was some years ago, uh about 10 years ago, I was uh meeting with a client and they came in and told me they couldn't meet with me anymore.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, why?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they said their pastor had told them, instead of going to mental health counseling, which was Christian-based, of course, um, they said, just give your tithes and offerings here, pay it to the church, and I'll meet with you.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what ended up happening was the cat the pastor did a lot of harm in the life of that person.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: That person had severe complex trauma.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the pastor did a bunch of harm.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think a truth that we have to understand, pastors need to understand this, uh Christian leaders do, is your blind spots will show up in the people God has entrusted to you to shepherd.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Every hang up you have, every blind spot you have, every point of trauma you have will always manifest in the people.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's from the top down for sure.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think what we have to recognize is pastors have to make room in their theology for mental health.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: We we recognize when man fell into sin that our whole being fell, but this one part that people struggle to understand that they struggle to wrap their minds around is the mental health.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So then we just over-spiritualize it because they don't understand it.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: That in and of itself is really an admission that your theology has to grow.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: When man fell, our psyche fell, our emotions fell.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think, Chip, you dropped some real nuggets of wisdom and truth there that our early life upbringing has really manifested into who we are today as human beings.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually your formative zero to five that really are going to dictate whether we're gonna be anxious adults, well-adjusted adults, or or whatnot, and everything in between.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we got to deal with this stuff.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think pastors, churches, their theology has to go to make room for it.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we're literally doing harm to people and the discipleship that we want, we're never going to see in the life of the church because we're leaving room, A, for the enemy, and B for brokenness to go unhealed.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we give the enemy way too much credit.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: The truth is, um, most of the time it's just human brokenness that goes unaddressed.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's like all of us, he can't work without resources.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the resources in our lives that he uses are the damage we've done to each other.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, we're giving him the raw material out of which to torture us.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's oversimplified in a sense, but I don't know that it is.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Good old Baptist preacher years ago, I was putting a sermon together, I can't remember what it was on, and he shared with me this little three-phrase phrase.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was saved, I'm being saved, and I'm yet to be saved.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I developed it into a message that I call, How saved are you?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's a little tongue-in-cheek, but what I'm what I get into is that we're three-part beings, spirit, soul, and body.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh uh 1 Thessalonians 5, 13, maybe Genesis 2, 7, there's other places that that make it fairly clear there's three parts.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: God's a trinity, we're a trinity.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um not exactly the same, but similar.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what I found is if a pastor and a believer gets this simple understanding that I'm spirit, soul, and body, and in my spirit I was saved.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Past tense.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm as saved as I ever gonna be in my spirit.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm being saved where in my soul.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: What's my soul?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's my mind, will, emotions, memories, behaviors, etc.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm yet to be future tense, saved in my body at the return of the Lord, etc.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Look about that.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was saved, past tense.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can you can't you can't improve it.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm yet to be saved, future tense, you can't do anything about it.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Where should all our effort be focused?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm being saved.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: To me, I'm like, guys, the entire focus of our efforts is on soul care, discipleship, soul care, soul care is discipleship.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say this to a pastor, you know, building on what you said, Armando, you don't have to know what people that are professionally trained know.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to know all the techniques and tricks and all that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: But you do need a working understanding of how we become the way we are, what's broken, and what are some of the different ways we can fix it.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, but well, now you're stepping out of the the the path of pure Christianity.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're not, man.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's in Hebrews.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: It says, uh, we don't shrink back, but we we're patient or something.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can't quote it.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: To the to the possessing of our soul.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: The bottom line is, man, the quality of your life here and now is gonna improve.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Beloved, I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're the most important conversation happening in the church today.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: And and this podcast is the best one that's happening in the conversation.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: Come on, Joey.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: Come on, Joey.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just kidding.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just kidding.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: I I'd be curious, and let me know if this is okay because it may take a few, but given that you guys are on similar paths and have similar backgrounds and endeavors, I'd I'd be curious just Armando's background spiritually as well as how he got on the science side.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: He's all he's almost a Christian now.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, sweet.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, just read Revelation and that'll take you over the edge, man.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: That will make you a Christian.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I've actually been in the mental health field for about two decades now.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's really interesting.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, without uh going deep into the long journey of my testimony, I'll give you guys the 90-second version, which I think is probably what you're asking me.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, came to know the Lord uh my late teens, early 20s, had a powerful encounter with Jesus, got saved to a uh and went to an Assemblies of God church, and um, you know, it was appropriately charismatic and it was great, and just felt the Lord telling me that I was gonna be called, I was gonna be a pastor one day.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Started going down that endeavor, went to a uh Alliance Theological Seminary, went to uh Naya College Christian institution.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I felt the Lord just kind of leading me down the path of mental health.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I think it was a matter of trying to figure myself out too.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was growing spiritually in the word, but but I knew it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I knew there was a tension in my life.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the tension was, God, why are there still behaviors?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I still defensive?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I like deflecting?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: What, you know, why is all this junk happening in my life?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter how much I grew in my understanding of the word, no matter how fresh worship was, no matter how many altars I've knelt before, there was still this junk and this brokenness that was happening in my life.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't figure it out.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I had some people over-spiritualizing it, you know, telling me just to pray harder, to believe more.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to realize they had some of the same blind spots I had in their life.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it really took me down a journey.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I started um, you know, looking at the mental health program, and in many ways that program saved me.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is not in a salvation sense, but in a in the sense of my humanity, my brokenness, uh, my vulnerability before the Lord.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a home that, you know, men had two emotions, anger and joy.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was it, right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: There was nothing in between.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: I had to develop an emotional language, I had to get in tune with what was really broken in my life, I had to deal with past traumas and felt very led to become equipped as a mental health counselor.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then I became a mental health counselor.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm currently uh since uh back in 2005, licensed in New York and New Jersey, uh, been at the mental health game for almost two decades now.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that calling to be a pastor never died.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was always serving in my church, but in 2015 I got credentialed, uh, stepped into ministry, uh, was everything from a discipleship pastor to a youth pastor to an executive pastor of a pretty large church in New York, and then eventually launched Fusion Church as a church plant in uh 2019, right before the pandemic.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so for me it's a collaborative approach.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I bring mental health in one hand, uh, that's Christ, you know, uh Christ-centered, biblically based, and and I bring uh, you know, ministry and the word of God in the other.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that it's a it's a beautiful combination of raw honesty of what discipleship looks like.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's what convinced me in the journey.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was able to grow through that.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um as I've really brought those two forward, one in one hand, one in the other, I realize that they're they're not separate.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're actually the same, and that scripture actually calls us to deal with those deep, broken wounds in our life that Jesus doesn't only promise to save for eternity, but he promises to save right now.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I think of scriptures uh, you know, that you know, Jesus just promising to, you know, God promising to give us in response to ashes, just like uh the oil of joy and a garment of praise and in trade of our brokenness and and our grief.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think about Jeremiah, the weeping prophet, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think about all of these things, and and then I think about Jesus himself.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Garden of Gethsemane, Faith's in the mud.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Scripture says the emotions were so heavy, he literally could have died in that moment.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think of the the impact, the anxiety, the fears, and I love the humanity of scripture, and I just wish we were all honest about it because I think that's where genuine authentic Christianity comes from.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And people will experience a depth of healing.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of like my story, how I ended up kind of where I'm at, and then thank God I connected with Chip, which changed my life for the good, and I'm a better man for it.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I wish that was working on Joey, but you still work on it.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it takes longer, man.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: You just have to have patience.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: You need to work on your fruit.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: You need to work on your fruit.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: Just work on your fruit, sir.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Joey, I'm gonna out you about something, man.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, so Armando, we started to work on getting this thing together and uh, you know, scheduling it on it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, case that we shoot, hey, hey, stop, stop.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Stop.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Stop.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not so so occasionally, you know, we we shoot texts back and forth, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I get a text and it says, Hey, you I'm having a hard time scheduling armadillo.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I said, what?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I read it and I'm thinking, uh it must have been the the what do you call the thing that corrects your spelling?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then I realized when I got two or three more, and they said, you know, haven't gotten the episode with Jesse Lermadillo settled yet.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, this sucker's doing this on purpose.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're having blue.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hey.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want you to know that I just want you to know what I got to work with here, Model.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Two buddies clowning, that's all.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: Two buddies clowning.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_04: Man, golly.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: Chip, man, you you have made some connections with some awesome people.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: Gosh, like I could listen to you talk forever, man.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like I'm curious.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: I I've got a bunch of questions, Chip, but I don't want to go in directions that don't want to go in there.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: I've got a question for both of y'all.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: But anyway, with how much you care about mental health, how much you know the science that you have a grasp on, is it ever hard not being angry when you hear stories such as pastors saying, hey, don't go to your therapists, you know, just tithe here.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like, do you struggle with like a, and maybe even in indignation, like a righteous anger?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think early on, um, when I first stepped into the field, yeah, it made me angry.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to work through that.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's still a mix because pastors will stand before the Lord in judgment for the sheep that were entrusted to them.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, with with high influence and leadership, there there's high, there's high expectations.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, an answer we have to give to the Lord with that.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think pastors really need to lean into the responsibility they truly have.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there's righteous anger, I would say, but then there's also compassion.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I realize when pastors are doing that, it's because they have blind spots.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's because their own brokenness.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And when I do have the opportunity, I try to uh extend that to the person I'm working with to understand that their pastors are human, that they're because I have to, you know, part of it is psyched too.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be able to educate your clients to be able to have truth, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And to balance that, you know, and help them understand all truth is God's truth.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so I do try to extend a bridge of compassion when it is appropriate ethically.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: There are times where I've actually reached out separate to certain pastors, tried to create networking, uh, build relationships of trust.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's probably something we'll probably get into at some point in this discussion, what that looks like.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but yeah, I think that there is a part of me that is righteously frustrated, but then there's also the other part of me that recognizes that they are just as lost.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, 70% of pastors today report significant depression.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: 18% think about suicidal thoughts regularly.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the suicidality thought, uh, which is ideation, amongst pastors is three times higher than the national average, which is about 5.2% of the general populace admit that they have suicidal thoughts.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Pastors are high having that on a higher level.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: 70% report depression.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's far more than the 50% or so of the general populace.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: There is more, um, there is more sickness when it comes to mental health within the pastor position than there is in the general populace.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Their self-esteem, over 70% of them to 80% report that their self-esteem is deeply impacted and for the worse being in ministry than it was before ministry.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um something like 50 or 60 percent talk about how their um how their marriages have been negatively impacted by the pressures and the rigors of ministry.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're working 55 to 75 hours a week.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: The the rates of burnout are two and a half times higher than the national average.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like pastors are not healthy.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I recognize that, and because I recognize that, it brings apart a sense of compassion for them.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the way I deal with that is I channel that through networking.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I channel that through reaching out to pastors that I have connection with in the community, where where I do the work that God has called me to do.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know what?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just take it one relationship at a time.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_04: It is the setup flawed.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: It seems like the those stats and that picture sounds so daunting.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: Is there something inherently flawed with how we have church set up, whether it's expectations we have for pastors, whether it's what we've allowed pastors to be able to get away with?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm just spitballing here, but is there something about how things are set up that need to be changed?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because I I, you know, I have the same sort of empathy and and love for pastors as as you do, but it seems like with what you're saying, man, there's got to be something deeper that has to be fixed.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a systemic problem.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it goes down to the seminary level.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look, it's only recently in the last 10, maybe 15 years in some circles, that seminaries are even incorporating uh, you know, into their program one or two classes on on mental health or counseling.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we're seeing more and more of that, thankfully, but there's still seminaries that have blacklisted any idea of mental health.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to school to learn how to preach, how to teach, and never address the brokenness of humanity.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's new info for me, man.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we end up in churches that have in a culture that idolizes pastors.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, years ago, you know, a pastor was just preaching and teaching, and you know, they were the community pastor.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Today you got to be preacher, teacher, shepherd of everybody, you got to be CEO, you gotta be fundraiser manager, you gotta be uh social media promoter, and the list goes on and on and on.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Our expectations of what a pastor should be are unhealthy.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then what we do as a society is then criticizes churches that are stepping forward and doing it right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: What do I mean by that?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: That there's layers of leadership.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a pastor, and his mission and vision is preaching and teaching, discipleship, vision casting, and then they have department leads and pastors of different departments.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what they're what they're going into is a model that says, hey, the body of Christ is one body with many members, and a pastor can't wear it all.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then you get other Christian sects or denominations that are now criticizing these churches for their forward movement.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a systemic problem.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think until we get honest, it's only going to get better step by step in some circles.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we need to confront the lie, we need to confront the stuff that's happening in the shadows, the stuff ministries, pastors, denominations aren't uh dealing with.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't force a horse to drink water.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can get him there, but you can't force him to drink.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, for me, there's also understanding that the enemy is deceptive.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: What does scripture say that uh, you know, when it comes to false teaching, that uh that they're gonna deceive, but then they also go about being deceived themselves.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a big piece of compassion.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is it possible that ministries, pastors, denominations can be deceived about the role of mental health biblically?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, it is possible.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we're missing a whole subset of the gospel of gospel healing because of our persistent denial of it.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's systemic.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I, you know, you're talking about the whole uh, you know, Joey, do you do you get angry or compassionate or whatever?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: I would probably say where I'm at is, and I'm not saying that this first part's the right place to be, but um, I'm angry at a macro level.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm angry about the systemic stuff.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm angry about pastors who are typically pretty sharp people.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're pretty, they got their, you know, you know, not all of them, but for the most part.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, dude, get some freaking help.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, please, I'll pay for it.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so at the macro level, I have to really check myself.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm an eight on the Enneagram, and I can get worked up really fast about, like I think through this one of this is one of the filters I think through when I look at a leader.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: You teach what you know, you reproduce what you are.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you may preach on the fruit of the spirit, but if you're an angry person, what they're gonna receive from you is a spirit of anger.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean literally, but if somebody sits under your ministry week after week after week after week, it isn't what you're saying that's the most important thing, it's what you are.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because over time you're imparting to them what you are.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus said when a pupil's fully trained, he becomes like his teacher.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't say he knows what his teacher knows.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many things hidden in scripture.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: What Jesus was saying is the result of discipleship is a reproduction of yourself.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you're being slowly but surely being made into a reproduction of Jesus, then we're in good shape.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're not, if your growth has stopped because you're so busy or you're bought into certain philosophies or whatever, we're in trouble, dude, because you're going to reproduce what you are, not what he is in you.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's at the macro level.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the truth, once a pastor gets in front of me, I don't care how bad their behavior is, I don't care how mad I was at them when they were sitting out there listening to me do a talk.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: When they get in front of me and start sharing their stuff, all that stops.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, dude, I get it, man.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do believe you're a product of, I believe at least 60 to 80 percent of who and what you are today is a product of things you had no choice over.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's stun, it's it's it's stunning to an audience when you ask this question.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Did you get to pick your parents?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you prepped for it and you you're prepared to explain it afterwards, it's stunning what it does to their thinking.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Anywhere from 60 to 80 percent of who I am, I had no choice over.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: None.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Zero.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what happens.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: At the macro level, I'm just mad.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: At the at the micro level, looking eyeball to eyeball with a with with somebody who happens to be a pastor.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking to myself, they didn't wake up one day and ask and decide to be this way.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I have to be careful because I do get to speak and and and present in front of leaders and their teams, and uh I can get pretty cranky.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Greg has to correct me every once in a while.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but the interesting thing is there's a group of pastors out there that they want to hear it, and they want to hear it kind of raw.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Young guys in particular, young guys want it raw.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me how I'm jacked up.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: My deal is this if you admit you're jacked up, I'll walk with you through the fires of hell.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: But if you won't admit you're jacked up, I don't have time for you, man.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care how big a check you're ready to write.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't have time for you.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of where I'm at with all that, Joey.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Armando, would you feel compelled to say something?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_04: And if so, what would you say?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: But let's say you're visiting a mega church, you're on vacation, you're at a church, you wanted to check in on a Sunday morning and have some fellowship, and you're pretty impressed, and you're like, Man, this was a good worship service, and then the pastor goes up and he's talking and everything, and then he just says something along the lines of, you know, people talk anxiety and medication and therapy.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: How dare they?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, reads verses on give all your thoughts and cares to God.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: He'll give you peace that passes all understanding, and you know, goes on this, you know, if someone's full of the Holy Spirit, then they don't need full of Zoloft and just, you know, insults or just kind of like a little sarcasm and and just you're thinking the people sitting in this gigantic place who are on medication, who have mental health challenges that they feel completely, completely inept with fixing and they're come they're looking for hope.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like, would you feel compelled to at least reach out to that church and say, hey, I'd love just a second with your pastor because you care?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: Would you feel compelled?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if I was given the opportunity to talk to that pastor, for sure.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I mean, the reality is half of that congregation and that uh example is dealing with some level of anxiety for sure.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: You've just marginalized a whole group of people, you've sent them a huge message that says, we are not safe for you, the gospel's not safe for you, and just showered them with shame.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is what makes people run and hide in closets with their mental health.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is what makes people feel like I have to deny what I'm really dealing with in life.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: The level of harm that's actually done with statements like that is what actually stops discipleship, stops healing, and allows people to bleed out emotionally all over their friends and family.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: It only persists the sickness of the soul.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I would absolutely have a desire to speak up and speak out against that and help uh walk with that pastor if that person is humble enough to have a conversation and even consider that maybe their theology needs to make room for people's brokenness.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: But then on a deeper level, I think it's also recognizing that pastor's projecting.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: For a pastor to have so much anger and vitriol with response to mental health, what are you denying in your own life that's broken?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you compensating so hard to make such a bold statement that hurts and does harm to everybody else?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: What are you trying to salvage in yourself?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And more than likely, that per that pastor, I mean, put a little my hat of analysis on, more than likely he talks harsh to his wife and kids.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's, I mean, just in that example you gave, there's projection of arrogance, there's projection of pride and unwillingness to look at oneself, shut down everybody else, because in order to deal with other people's brokenness, it requires you to having have to already dealt with yours.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can't bring people where you haven't been.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So a great admission that you can't deal with something is shutting down somebody else's something.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when you shut that down, you're telling the world, I haven't dealt with this yet.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that person is probably a train wreck.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, my compassion, as Chip said, would go out, but then on a systemic level, uh man, I just think about that megachurch and all those hurt people, and then they're gonna bring that broken theology to their kids.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And now we have generational curses that are happening, and this is why, and this is why generation after generation, you know, we you know, grandpa's old behavior is still in the grandkids because it's recycled through the generations until somebody breaks that curse.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't, I'm not sure this fits here, Joey.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, but I think there's um a handful or less theological issues that are driving and supporting all this that we're talking about.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: For instance, I found probably the most reformational truth I've come into since becoming a Christian.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, obviously recognizing Jesus, receiving him, uh, you know, the biggest event of life, period.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: But since receiving Jesus, of all the things I've learned, et cetera, et cetera, the number one thing that has affected me the most deeply, widely, pervasively, comprehensively, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's indescribable its impact on my life, was learning that I have a father that loves me, and learning that that's why he created me.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he wants me to learn how to receive his love and rest in his love.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what am I trying to say?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because without that, not intentionally exactly, but what happens is we have a right need for love, encouragement, affection, security.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: I believe all troubling sin patterns are meeting a right need the wrong way.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So if I've not come into the Father's love, I've not had my soul deeply, profoundly rooted and grounded in the love of Christ, where I know that I know that I know there's not a second of any day of my life that I've not been loved.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: What's that got to do with what we're talking about?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because in the absence of that, we get what we need through external things, popularity, success, all kinds of things.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they become enculturated to the place that we become blind to them.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've probably heard the deal where, you know, ask a fish what water is.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they don't know what water is.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's all they've ever known.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: So they're like, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean water?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it becomes so much a part of the culture.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, competition and comparison.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one time Greg and I were talking, Greg Surratt and I were talking, and you know, we were riding along and he was, I don't remember where we were going, and he said uh something along the lines of, well, you know, we're all brothers and brothers compete.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of bit my tongue, you know, I was like, you know, whatever, I we don't have to have a philosophical discussion every time.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally he said something else, and I thought, well, I need to really say what I'm thinking.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I said, yeah, Greg, I said, I agree brothers compete in a fallen kingdom, but not in the kingdom of God.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because competition's based on my getting my need for respect, esteem, whatever, through beating you, being better than you.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: I said, in the kingdom of God, we get it healthier ways.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I hope what I'm saying is making sense.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because what that does deep down is it's hard for me to go ask for help if I'm not aware that I'm being driven by a deceived sense of where I get my worth and value.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: If I get my worth and value from my relationship with God, then you can talk about my preaching, and it hurts a little, but it's not an existential pain.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't touch my identity.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: I am a beloved son of God in whom he's well pleased.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you talk to me about, well, you know, dude, you're you you're just not very good at this.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you know what, you're absolutely right, but I'm still loved.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like the first encounter between God and fallen man, I believe set the default settings of the human soul: fear, shame, and isolation.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was afraid because I was naked, exposed, so I hid isolation, fear, shame, and isolation.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, pastors aren't exempt from that.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Unless we learn how to allow God's love to drive fear out, what's the number one fear?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Fear of rejection.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: Fear that if you really get to know me and see me as I am, you won't like me, you won't respect me.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: So what happens is we we hide, we live behind masks.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you can ever get a pastor, I don't care if it's one-on-one with guys like us, Armando, or if it's in a small group, which is preferred, to be honest with you.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: But if a pastor can ever take his mask off, and I like to say get naked, and of course people are creeped out by that, but Genesis 2 ends with this thought about Adam and Eve.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: They were both naked, fully exposed, and felt no shame.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you can ever experience what it feels like to be exposed and fully known and yet feel no shame, none, zero, you're not gonna be uncomfortable talking about areas of hurt and lack.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I in other words, all I'm trying to say is I believe there's some theological uh adjustments that God's trying to bring into the church.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say one of them is the Father's love.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we we serve a trin a trinity and Jesus brings certain things into our life, the Holy Spirit brings certain things into our life.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: I believe the next thousand years, if we are around that long, are gonna be about getting to know the Father and His love.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: It affects your security and what it's based on and rooted in.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that made sense.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it makes it makes a lot of sense, Jeff.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think you also made me uh kind of reflect on the thought and the idea that pastors that have done the hard work of their own health journeys make room for other people's humanity.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: When you see a pastor that is shutting down the pain of others, it's because of those blind spots that that uh lack of courage or faith to move forward in their own healing.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have seen a pastor do his own work, the church literally becomes a well of healing.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Pain and brokenness is invited to the table of Jesus for healing.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Joey, I've noticed that with Pastor Greg.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, obviously Pastor Greg's opened himself up to me, I know I can say, but you know, as you watch his preaching over the years, he's preached a couple messages lately that there was a sense of rawness and compassion, identifying with the people to whom he was speaking.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I just sat there and I thought, that's not the Greg I met 14 years ago.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like Papa Greg wrapping his arms around the whole room and giving them permission to admit their flaws and admit their pain and whatever.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: And again, he and I have talked about this.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think he was as good at that 10 years ago, 12 years ago, as he is now.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's amazing to watch it at the retreat that we have for pastors.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: He's willing to be vulnerable, he's willing to talk about his issues, and it's amazing to watch how it affects these guys.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: That a guy in Greg's position and stature or reputation is willing to do that.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now that's what I meant, Joey.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Would you agree that the the his ability to empathize is way different than it used to be?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for sure.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: For sure.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he actually said on the Seaco's podcast last time he was on to talk about the grief that he was in the middle of having lost his brother.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, he literally said that he wished that he could go back to every single funeral he's ever done and apologize.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, every single one?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know how many funerals that is?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: Like, like seriously, he said, I I have learned something in this grief that I wish I could go back and say sorry to all those families.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, yes, to your question.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: I I could probably stand to do a few of those myself.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Armando?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I just uh I love the nature of um the conversations, the reflection, and you know, just um your sharing how far you've seen uh Pastor Greg Surratt just progress in his own um, you know, I guess brokenness he uh into healing and how that has become a well for the people that he serves well.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: I what it compared to statement to say I'd go back and apologize to all of those.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just get excited for the ministry he has going forward, how rich it's going to be, and uh you know, being able to uh I guess share more of a holistic uh gospel approach.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's good, that's a good observation.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: What you said about once you find a place of healing and health, you're able to, I forgot what your Exact words were, but see others' humanity and and embrace them better with love.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: It just it uh light bulb went off, and Chip knows about this situation.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's really none of anybody else's business, especially not the public.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: But I experienced both sides of that coin during my mental health crisis in 2019 and some other things that took place afterwards.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_04: I did I I experienced pastors who were extremely healthy and who were able to pastor me through some of it was very ugly and personal brokenness, not just mental health related.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: There were some other things that I was just uh a broken mess.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I also experienced a pastor who could have been in that role of love and forgiveness and grace, and I'm gonna be there and help you, but couldn't just be because was more frustrated and um kind of looked more down at me, just did not have that capability to be there for me as a pastor and shepherd, and hearing you say that helps me, you know, as far as having compassion for you know that person.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: Very, very helpful.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_04: I I I've got a I've got a verse to throw y'all's way as far as.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Let me share a thought right there, Joey, so I don't forget it.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: A principle that I I kind of function by that touches what you just said.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus said, you know, what's the greatest commandment?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then without hesitation, love your neighbor as yourself.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Now I've come to believe that that's a scripture we fulfill automatically.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: We automatically love our neighbor the way we love ourselves.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: So what do I mean by that?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: If I love myself through performance and rule keeping, I'm gonna love you through performance and rule keeping.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what Armando meant earlier about projection.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: What happens is I project onto you the standard that I use for myself.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, Romans 2 says, Be careful you who judge, because you're guilty of the same.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: And man has God used that to rattle my world.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Even in the macro I was talking about earlier, where I get angry with leaders, and the Lord will just tap me on the shoulder and say, Well, are you aware of this area of your life?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, I know God, I'm sorry.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: But my point, Joey, is when you run into someone like that, here's what I do now.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: I say, Wow, that's how that person feels about themselves.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, they're holding themselves to a standard that they can't live up to.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: And they live in frustration, they live in anxiety, they live in a distrustful place.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and and part of how I soften it is I I say this to myself, and they've got to go home with themselves.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: They've got to live with that person.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know if that made sense, but it's a filter that I use in lots of situations.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Love neighbor as yourself, and I say, okay, if I assume for the moment that's what you're doing right now, I know where the work needs to be done.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Not correcting you on how you treat other people, it's helping you treat yourself with the respect and dignity God does.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: When I um when I sit down with folks, especially pastors, and I see some of those walls and those behaviors, I will often ask them, um, after highlighting my observation of what I'm seeing, I'll often ask who or what has hurt you so deeply that you have to protect yourself to that level.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I, you know, and I this could be a good uh obviously I think it will for sure talk again, but I think this could possibly be a good way of wrapping this up.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_04: Is I also have read scripture where I understand I understand the ignorance of people, like a lot of the pushback that you guys have discussed as as science-minded Christians who see the science of mental health.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_04: I think y'all understand people who are embedded in this sort of thing.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we could all understand some of where they're coming from, but a verse that I thought would be a good example of where they're coming from.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_04: So, and I'll I'll even I'll even be that person that and and coming from a good place.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: Let's say someone heard y'all talk about mental health from the scientific perspective, and they say, Listen, listen, I I'm having a hard time with this.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: Let me just read Galatians 5 17.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_04: It says, For the flesh desires what is contrary to the spirit, and the spirit what is contrary to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you aren't you do not do what you want, and then basically says, just submit to the spirit, follow the spirit, you avoid all the bad stuff.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's that seems like a tot something in totality, right, guys?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_04: Right, Mr.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_04: Christian therapist?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like just I it sounds simple to me.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_04: What what do I need to talk to a therapist before?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_04: I just be locked into the spirit, and I have heard people talk that way.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_04: I this the spirit is my therapist.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_04: And this verse does sound kind of like uh, hey, this is totality, man.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_04: You follow the spirit, you're good.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_04: Do you understand how people can read that and then get that?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my you know, my response, Joey, would be depending on who they are, but again, the aid in me can come out occasionally.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: And my response would be, well, why don't you go ahead and live that way?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, but here here's my card, so give me a call when you get tired.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I mean there's times you're just wasting your time trying to intellectually convert somebody, you know.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing you might do, and this would be more gracious, would be say, Well, okay, just for a moment, what is an issue that you're dealing with that living the way those scriptures are leading you to believe, is it helping you with that issue?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Are you are you doing better this month than you were last month, this year than you were last year?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're honest, which it depends on how invested they are in their over-spiritualizing, they probably say, No, I'm really not.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of stuck.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and then you you know you use that insanity definition.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you want a different result, you gotta do something different.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you try it?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why don't you why don't you try it?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so for me, I I think what I would want to do versus what I would do in response are two very different I think what I would want to do is challenge their theology and their egesis and taking that whole verse out of context.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's talking about sin and and whatnot, not mental health or dealing with brokenness of emotion.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I would want to do.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: That but Chip is right.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh going uh you know tit for tat, uh battling them biblically doesn't change anybody's thoughts when they are uh really anchored into deflection.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I would do is I would take a similar approach as Chub.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think Chip is speaking a lot of wisdom here.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would go after a simple question.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you're sharing with me then that you have no frustrations in your life about your behavior.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're totally in line of in submission with God when there's arguments between you and your spouse.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: You have not sinned against your children.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: You haven't sinned against the church God's called you to lead.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer to all of those, if they're honest, is no, I'm still doing those things.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's now just take a moment and just deal with the brokenness that maybe God wants to heal you from.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are you willing and desiring to be suffray?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and that opens up a conversation for sure.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's probably how I would deal with it versus what I want to do.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: If if they're open to a conversation.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're not, there's nothing you can do about it.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think any fears are rooted in mistrust.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I, you know, by and large, um, if people haven't done the work, I think they have to get over the mistrust that the church has for the mental health field and some of the views that the mental health field has about the church.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there's these extreme views that keep walls between us.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think we have to be open.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you sit across from somebody having coffee, uh chatting with them, um, we have to understand where is there agreement?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's agreement in discipleship, there's agreement in healing, especially if you're dealing with a Christian counselor, of course.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's agreement in watching people be set free by the power of the Holy Spirit.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how do we work together in tandem to do that?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the body there's one body, but there's many gifts.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're called to preach and teach, but this counselor might be called to counsel.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does that look like?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there has to be an acknowledgement that you have strengths, gifts, and abilities as a pastor that a therapist does not have.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then vice versa is true.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: The therapist has the ability and training that pastors by and large don't have, and actually, pastors need.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Again, if you look at the data, there's more psychopathology in the pulpit than there is in the con in the pews.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: Think about that.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Pastors are more sick for mental health than the people they serve.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when we think about networking, really the relationship should be from the therapist standpoint, and I've always uh bought into this.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: When I sit down across from a new pastor, how can I help you?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: How can I serve you?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: How can I help you to fulfill God's plan and purpose for your life?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then that relationship builds, and then how can I help you in your ministry serve the people that God has entrusted to you?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: How can I be a resource?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that means uh maybe workshops, it means uh, you know, uh speaking engagements.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: And some of this most therapists will do for free.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like most people, most Christian counselors literally have a heart to help people.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, will that turn into clients and things of that later?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, right?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: A laborer is worthy of his wages.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, however, there's many mental health folks in our area that are looking for that partnership.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: On the other side, pastors have to be able to see there's a real need in this ministry that I don't have.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: I lack the training, I lack the skill set, our people are hurting, and I can't bring healing to their life.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm having trouble bringing them to the well that the healing, where the healing is the source, and that's Jesus.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to do that because maybe as a pastor I haven't done that.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So let me connect with somebody who is equipped by the Holy Spirit to do this kind of work.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the beginning of a relationship.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's sitting down over coffee, dealing with trust.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Trust has to be built.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's the economy of every relationship.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll I'll make a few observations, Armand, and you tell me you you weigh in on them.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of the issue is some counselors don't integrate their Christianity with their psychology.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: They live parallel.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think, didn't that come up in our talk with the pastors, Joey?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: It did, yeah.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Talking about parallel.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think some of that is when you become a part of the licensed world of counseling, you you have to come up under their authority and their expectations and et cetera.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I think there's fear there.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I found when I was teaching school, I was a high school teacher back years ago, I found that a lot of Christians that were teaching were afraid to push the limits a little bit.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: And dude, I got away with all kinds of stuff.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: Not because I was doing it deceptively, I was doing it all out in the open, but nobody challenged me.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's some Christians who are counselors who are so concerned about dotting the I's and crossing the T's that they allow secular psychology to overwhelm their Christianity.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's one thought.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: Another thought is I'm a pastor and I'm I love my people.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: I want them to get the help they need.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: I uh I meet with this couple and I realize, you know what, they're they're beyond what I can do.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: I do a little bit of research, talk to people, and somebody recommends a counselor.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: I send them to the counselor.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I run into the the couple couple months later and I say, Hey, how's how's it going with uh the counselor we recommended?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, Oh, we're not going anymore.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Oh, really?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: She wasn't helping us.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: It just wasn't very effective.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think everybody's got to be open to able to say some counselors just aren't very good.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean that to be ugly.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: They now they may be good with this issue, addiction, or they may be good with this issue, trauma.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: I would put it this way: it's different working with someone who's damaged is at an eight than it is working with someone whose damage is at a two.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, if somebody's really functioning pretty well in life and they just need to be moved from a functioning-wise, from a six to an eight, that's a whole lot easier than it is to move someone who's functioning at a two to a four.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: You agree, Armando?
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, so there's just there's there's wrinkles that aren't, they aren't theological, they aren't whatever.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it's just practical.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: Counselor, do you go to church?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: Are you involved in your church?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see your counseling profession as a ministry within the kingdom of God?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is it your goal to advance and and expand the borders and influence of God's kingdom on the earth?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if it isn't, you just got a job.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a job.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you happen to be a Christian.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I would have an issue with that.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it isn't all on one side.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I would agree.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, just a little bit uh transparency.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: You, you know, years ago, one of my children, I have four children, uh, three daughters and a son.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: One of my um one of my children uh sought some counseling care.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I interviewed the counselor to make sure that they were a Christian before they were a counselor, right?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because you are talking about integration of our theology and and what we are as believers versus the the science world and being in uh under you know your your licensing board and whatnot.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, this is a lot about if I was to give pastors advice about this and and vice versa, it's about dating, kind of like dating, right?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: You you got to get to know the Christian counselors in your area, and you want to make sure that you are working in a relationship with a counselor who is a Christian and Christ surrendered, biblically based before they are a uh before they're a licensed counselor.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is there are many folks that are Christian, but they're being a counselor comes first, and they're in total submission to their licensing board, and and others are like, hey, I'm a Christ follower, and if that costs me my license, then it costs me my license, and I'm not going to compromise biblical truth.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it does or not is another story, and and many of them hope to kind of fly below the radar of any issues.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I know for myself I will never compromise biblical truth, right?
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a Christian or I am anything else.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's about being faith-based.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: And most of my colleagues, and I imagine yours as well, who are Christ followers and also trained professional counselors, will side with the Bible and with the Lord long before they side with anything else.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: And those are probably the relationships that pastors want to build.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there are enough of them out there, but you kind of got to date a few of them to figure out where they land.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I would say, Armando, that I couldn't be as positive and confident as you just said.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: I banged around with Christian counselors that I think it's more important that they adhere to the requirements of the licensure process and their peers in that world.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, traveling like I used to, and hopefully we'll get back to some.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was often that I would speak somewhere and do my thing, and almost, almost everywhere, some young person would come to me and say, I want to do what you do.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I would lay out the, you know, what you know, what education do you have?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're gonna have to do this and this and this and this.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: And here's the scary part.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's been, we're talking 15, 20 years now.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I've seen people do it.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: What's what scares me, Armando, is most of them end up leaving the church.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: They can make more money out there.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, some of it's on the church, some of it doesn't create a friendly environment for that negotiation, you might call it, to happen.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_02: But some of it's just they get baptized into this other culture and they like it.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: They like the language, you know, language creates culture, culture creates language.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of the things I tell counselor types, particularly if you want to have influence in the church, stop using your big words.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: Stop labeling everybody.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: Learn to explain a mental illness or a condition of mental health using words that you know that weren't on your tests when you got your degree, because it turns people off.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: They automatically feel uh you're condescending to them.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why am I wearing a Frampton t-shirt?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I have post, I mean, rock.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, number one, because I love rock and roll, but number two, I want somebody to immediately think, huh, this guy's not wearing a collar.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I've worked really hard when I teach and talk to people to take psychology terms and translate them into everyday language.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's just lots of work on both sides.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I would have to say, if you ask me right now, who do I think is more open to the partnership, I would say the church.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: Not by much, not by much, but at least 51, 55%.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're they're slightly more open than the mental health community is.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that, I think, uh Armando, is because of the hurt people have sustained by male authority figures, which is pretty much what the church is.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: So they have a a projected distrust for male authority figures.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not gonna let that guy tell me how to do what I do.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's some of what we're dealing with.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, uh, this has been awesome.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I I'll say my vote would be to do this conversation uh again with I mean, bring somebody else on or not, I don't care.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_04: I want to see Armando again.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_04: I just think the insight was extremely valuable from both of you guys.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: So thank y'all so much.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're listening to this by any chance on a podcast player, we are also on YouTube.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we'll have the links in the show notes.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you so much, Armando.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate the kind of people that you guys are, because we we need you big time.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_04: So thank y'all.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: For Mental Health Awareness Month, May, I did a four-part mini-series.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: I titled it Shades of Grace, and I mean like Sunglasses Shades of Grace.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the subtitle was Exploring a Jesus Shaped Culture.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: And what I did was I just did four sessions, about they're about 20, 25 minutes each.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: And my goal was to excavate some of the underlying mindset that will help you create a culture that's mental health friendly.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: So check it out.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's on the YouTube.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if it's on our podcast, Joy, but I want to get it there.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Shades of Grace.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: Love for you to do it.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, I I think it'd be great for a pastor to do a lunch and learn with his staff.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they sit and watch the 20, 25 minutes.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's a there's a QA guide with each of the sessions.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I think it'd be good to stretch your thinking.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Again, language shapes culture, and culture shapes language.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: It it part of what it does is it gives you language to use when you're talking about people's brokenness and et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, well, let me pray as we wind up.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: Lord, Lord, in Jesus' name, we just want to see you glorified.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and by that, what I mean is we want the world around us to see a great representation, an accurate picture of what you're really like.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: And to our consternation, you said that your glory will rise upon us.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_02: Your glory is what you, your nature and your character and acts on display.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, we want to look more like you.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: We want to think and talk and walk and interact.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, God help us figure out how to get the pieces of the puzzle working together better.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: We pray for pastors, we pray for mental health professionals to uh have a humility that prepares them to want to be involved in conversations that move this effort forward.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Lead us to other people that are that are hungry for the same thing.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: Build a network, God, please, please, please, please.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't have to be the leaders of it, but build a network that wants to see this happen.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Please, sir.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: In Jesus' name.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, bless you guys.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: Armando, we'll do this again soon.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to the Mental Health Emission of the Church podcast.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: Subscribe to our YouTube channel for video versions of these episodes, and have a great summer, everyone.