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Fictional Women Around the World: Arwen Evenstar · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Steffan
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you Protection of by Heart Radio, and welcome
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to another sub sub sub sub sub segment of fictional
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: women around the world, and today first one of the year.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of pressure, Samantha, and I'm going
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: to talk about that for a second. But today we
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: are finally tackling a Lord of the Rings character. We
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: have not done it yet, not the one that I
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: originally intended though, as I told Samantha, because I originally
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: meant to do Aowen, the feminist papers on her were
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: too many for me to handle. So we are just
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: going to table that for now, and instead we're talking
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: about our when even Star I can't do the Elvish,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: do not come at me. I'm not going to do
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: her last name in Elvish, but it translates to even Star. Uh.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: You know. Actually, the last time I watched Lord of
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: the Rings is with you, and it was when we
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: were in La at a conference. Oh yeah, and I
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: broke my laptop.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Yep, that exactly. It has.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: It's like a comfort show because I just recently watched
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: it again. My partner's family loves loves this tale. We
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: even played a card game based on it. It was
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: actually really good to go on different missions and you
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: have to do it together or you fail as a whole,
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: you know, as the Fellowship essentially, and it follows the
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: book and not the movie, so there's a lot of components.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: Was that's very disappointed on some of the things that
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: were left out of the movie, even though the movie
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: was really great, great adaptation. So us here are nerds
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: with the Lord of the Rings trilogy and Tolkien fans
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: just watched it once again. Like I said, I am
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: on my rewatch of the Return of the Key, there
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: was conversation about going to the theaters.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: We didn't make it, but big fans, I'm excited.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I am also a big fan. I do have
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: a strange thing that happens to me when I love
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: something I specifically from a certain time of my life,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: that it's almost painful for me to rewatch. So I
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: haven't I don't engage in rewatches that much, but that
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings movie, the Lord of the
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Rings movies are back in theaters right now and they're
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: doing very well. And I was reminiscing on about how
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: much I did love them as a kid, I would
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: go to midnight showings. I would run to the best seats.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: This was before where you got a sign seats and
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: they would just like raise the ear. Yes, we would run.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: I had like the glowing Lord of the Ring goblets
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: that you could get from Burger King. I still have them.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I had a fancy copy of all the books. I
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: named my cat Arwin. I really just like the name,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: but apparently it means noble maiden. Yes, and my dad
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: loved Lord of the Rings. He was always talking to
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: me about it. This was a big like bonding thing
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: for us. I did read the books. I read The
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Hobbit and the Similarian and Samantha and I have talked
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: about our book it slash accelerated reading experiences, but they
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: are a lot of points you could get for reading those. Sure, yes,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: but Tolkien is pretty daunting, Like everything he wrote was
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: pretty daunting, and there's just so much very specific war.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to do my best here. Also kind
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: of famously, not a lot of women involved, and those
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: who are typically defined by their relation to men, as
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: in the wife, the mother, the sister, which we'll talk
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit about with Rowin. I almost did glad
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Real too, but with the new Amazon show, it was
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: making my head hurt. So that's another thing we're gonna
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: have to do later. And also, I'll say a lot
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: of the depictions of women are more empowered, even if
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: only a little, in the newer live action stuff, compared
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: to the books, so we are going to talk about
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: the differences there. It's been a long time since I
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: have read the books, and this is why aoen that
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: it's going to have to be a whole bigger episode
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: because when I was doing my like, first, oh, we
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: should do an episode on this, and people are like,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: do you remember this happened in the books, I was like,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: oh no, I didn't. Okay, I'm gonna have to look
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: into that. Though author J. R. R. Tolkien once said
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: the story of Arwen and Aragorn is essential, the tale
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: of Airgorn and Arwin appeared in the appendix of The
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings, and from what I understand, she
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: is not in it much. But I can't recall that either,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: even though I know I did read it, so all right.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Arwen Evenstar is played by liv Tyler in the live
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: action films. She is the half elf daughter of Lord
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: el Rond, and Lady Celebrian. Her family is well off
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and well regarded. She is the granddaughter of Galadriel. She's
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: like very connected. She's like a famous self. We'll say.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: She was born in the Elvish city riven Dell, and
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: she spent a good chunk of her time either there
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: or in Lothorian with Galadriel. Because she is half alf
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: she gets to decide if she wants immortality or not,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: which is a big part of her story. Another thing
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: that is a big part of her story is her
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: mother was captured, tortured, and poisoned by orcs, something that
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: el Rond was able to heal physically. You kind of
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: see that in the movies, but she never truly recovered,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: and she went on the boats to the Blessed Realm,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: which I've always presumed be heaven, but I guess it's
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: up for interpretation. When Arwin was over two thy seven
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: hundred years old, she met a twenty year old man
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: named Aragorn while he was staying at riven Dell, and
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: it was love at first sight for him. He mistook
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: her for like a mythical Elvis, and he just thought
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: she was the most beautiful thing. And talk about an
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: age gap, although she is actually pretty young for an elf.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Most elves are much older than that, And in case
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: you don't know and this universe, elves don't age the
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: same as humans and are usually described as almost a
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: theorially beautiful, and she was described as amongst the most beautiful.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: She's like the Helen of Troy of the elves. So
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: about thirty years later from this meeting, Ara Gorn and
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Rowin meet again and promise themselves to each other. However,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: this meant that Rowin was choosing to give up her
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: immortality by not sailing into the Blessed Realms and remaining
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: with Ara Gorn instead, something her father wouldn't permit until
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Aragorn became the king of Gondor and Arnor. So Ara
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Gorne went to war and she supported him. She waved
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: his banner. This is not the case in the movies,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: by the way, There's no such condition, and Airgorn spends
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of his time thinking he doesn't deserve the power,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: like even want it. Irwin is the one who has
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: complete faith in him and is trying to build him up.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: She gives him her even star necklace as a reminder, which,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: by the way, I do have that necklace. And here's
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: a quote, I would rather share one lifetime with you
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: than face all of the ages of this world alone.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: That's from the first movie. And speaking of the first movie,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: she was the one to safely transport Proto to Rivendell,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: and she faced down the ringways Slash Nasgule to do it.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: There's a very epic river flooding scene and she wields
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: a fancy sword. She was not the one to do
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: it in a book. In the book, this was a
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: movie only thing.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: She also vibes Aragorn via a vision, which she also
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: didn't do in the books. But when he falls and
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: he's like drowning, she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: that's the Okay, that's one way to put it. Apparently,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Originally in the Two Towers of the movie, she was
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: supposed to fight alongside Aragorn at Helm's Deep, the big
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: fight scene at the end, but they scrapped it and
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: instead her father shows her a future of sadness if
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: she gives up immortality, and she later has a vision
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: of the sun she would have with Aragorn, and then
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: it's implied that she was ill or something and that
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: her fate was intertwined with the fate of the One Ring.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: I read a lot of interesting things about this. I
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: guess I've never really thought about it too much, but
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of people were like, her dad was manipulating
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: her by not showing her the whole truth, so manipulating
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Eric Gorn by not telling him the whole truth. So
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: if you want to read into that discourse, it does exist.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, they did definitely change their plans, and you
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: can read some interesting interviews about why they did. Once
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: ari Gorn succeeded in his quest, Arwin met him in
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Minas Tarif and the two married and they became She
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: became Queen of the United Kingdom. She gave her spot
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: on the ship sailing to the Blessed Realms Staffrodo, and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: she and Aragorn had a son and a few daughters.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: She died of her broken heart soon after air Gorn did,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: at the ripe age of two thousand, nine hundred and one.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: But they I think he lived until about ninety. Oh
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense, because he.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Was like ready like seventy yeah something, sixty something something.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Because they said they ruled together for one hundred and
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: twenty years.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so he because he's he being a part of
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: the clan.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: He was ages slowly as.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Well, so he like he lived a long life. And
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: then she she went back to her home and was
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: so like haunted by memories. She laid down and just
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: was like, I'm good, this is the end for me.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: But again, like it's it's difficult because the books and
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: the movies have sort of differing point of views here,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: but yeah, that's that's sort of her story. She has
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: appeared in a couple of video games and some extended
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: universe stuff, but generally but not as much, not as
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: much as you would think for how important they've made
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: her to Aragorne's story. That does bring us to some
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: of the tropes because I think there are some very
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: familiar tropes here. I when I saw this movie, how
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: old would I have been? Maybe middle school, high school?
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: But I thought, like, especially her scene with the river,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: I thought it was so cool. I thought that was
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: like awesome. And after that, you know, she does become
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: more of a more of a like in a distance,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: let me wake you up from dying or something like that.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: But I did really like the character. But at the
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: same time, it is a lot of the tropes around
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: her are like her dad deciding when or if she
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: can get married. I mean, you can argue that in
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the movies at least she does, like she makes the decision,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: and she does argue her case, and he does. It's
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: not like giving up your immortality is a pretty big deal.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: So it's not that he shouldn't have opinions about it,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I guess, especially because it's affected his family, because he
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: also had that same choice. But that is kind of
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: a trope of the like, I don't think you should
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: do that, and this is the tragedy that will occur
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: if you do be ready to deal with this. I guess.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: You know, you could say, yeah, you should know what
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: you're getting into. But also it how often this kind
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: of thing comes up. I was kind of reminded of
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Twilight is sort of the she has to decide if
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: she's gonna be a vampire and like live forever or
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: a stay human and just those kind of big decisions. Also,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: you know, this is her giving up her immortality for
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: her man, which is a big trope. I think you
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: could get into a lot about your thoughts about the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: worth of living forever versus living with somebody that you
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: really care about, and sharing that life with them, But
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: that's definitely a trope of like she did give up
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: a pretty big thing to be with them. Yeah, overall,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I have to say, I feel like air Gorn and
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Irwin's relationship was healthier in the movies, but I mean
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: in the book she was still she was still very
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: supportive of him, and uh, you know, I think it's
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: more just how you get to see it. Like one
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: of the articles I was reading was saying, you know,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: the tale of our air Gorn and Arwin in the
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: appendix of Lord of the Rings does have these elements,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: but who's necessarily reading the appendix And also just the
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: way they spread it out and the movies makes their
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: relationship seem more powerful, more meaningful, instead of just like
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: this one story you read at the end right of
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: an appendix.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, it feels very like timing of Tolkien and
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: his little society of like the little care they had
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: of women anyway, but they did need to put it
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: in there. But if they're going to make them a
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: part of the story, then they got to make them grandiose,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: like the daughter or the niece of a quaint king.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: And you know, like they had to be a big
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: character because outside of that and they're really just there.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it makes sense to what it was.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: And then like, I can't remember because I know you're
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: not taking talking about Owen, but was there a romance
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: between Owen and air Gorne Inn the book?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I can't remember.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: I just remember really being annoyed by this plotline, this
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: forced romance between them.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: There was a I think there was some like a
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: unresive all tension between them. I know what you're talking about, right,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: because she wanted to be a warrior and she saw
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: him as a warrior, and so she felt that camaraderie
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: with him. I don't know because I haven't read it
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: in so long, but I can't remember if it was
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: meant to be like, oh he's got doubts.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: There's a triangle, a triangle that is always forced. I
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: couldn't remember, but yeah, I do remember loving the scene
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: of her rescuing photo really odd line of oh did
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: I catch a ranger off his guard? I was like,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: that's such a weird like line in this entire like
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: aged tail.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but no, I get it. But yeah, I feel
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: like her.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: I love the way they protracted her as more of
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: a fighter and it's involved then rather than just the
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: possibility of something to come home to. Essentially it wasn't interesting.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: And then also the the reason to fight kind of
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: the additional reason to fight because in the movie he
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: kind of gives up because he doesn't want to go
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: see those who have died, the ghosts of the fallen
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: soldiers who portrayed the king. But like that was the
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: one catalyst that pushed him to become claiming the king
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: or whatever kingdom or whatnot. But it is interesting to
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: see the throwback to who was seen as essential in
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: the storytelling because I again, I know you're not going
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: to talk about Owen, but she did take on that
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: stride a little more of that rebellion and wanting to
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: be a leader, to be called a leader and be
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: seen as a leader, end up being a wife in yeah,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: bringing two kingdoms together, but whatever, we're gonna go with that,
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: but yeah, it I have never read The Hobbit either,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: so I can't really say to like the origin stories
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: of some of these things. But also, like again, I
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: did not read the Appendix either, as much as I
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: loved but that's that's where Tolkien is kind of like,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: this is where the major details are that you're missing
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: out on that.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: That seems very token esque. Yes, you really cared. You
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: will dig here.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: You don't know who the great great great grandfather of
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: this dwarf is. What are you doing?
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: The detail about lineage, which yes, could be said about
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: something as well as the landscape that he has is
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: sense very well.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Technically, Eric Gorn and Irwin are related.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: That makes sense. I don't know why, but that feels right.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: But very very distantly, like over like a thousand years.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: But yes, just speaking of lineage, I didn't know that
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: until I was doing the researcher this. Oh okay, all right, okay, yeah, no, no,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: we're definitely gonna have to come back and talk about
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Aowen because I totally forgot that she was essentially scolded
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: for killing the ring right there, like women don't do that,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: and it was in the book. I just completely forgot.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: So yeah, exactly exactly. But this is what we have
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: to say about Rowin for now. But if you do
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: have any other thoughts or anything that.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: We missed, we're going to get some. We're gonna get
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: some thoughts. I'm excited.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Gosh me too, I'm very interested. I'm very interested. Well,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: please let us know. You can email us at Hello
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: at Stuffmenever Told You dot com. You can find us
• 20:52
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• 20:54
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• 20:57
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• 20:59
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• 21:01
  Speaker 1: As always to our super produced Christine, our executive Rusa,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: and your contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you
• 21:07
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