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You Can Like Your Job and Still Build Freedom: Billy Keels on Side Ventures · Better Together

• Shawn Sundsvold: Welcome back to the Better Together Podcast. I am Sean Sunsvold along with Kelly Sunsvold, my co-host and partner in business and life. Today's guest is Billy Keels. He's a national best selling author. He's the host of the 1.5% top 1.5% globally ranked going long podcast and an international speaker who's become the go-to advisor for ambitious C level executives around the world. He's based in Barcelona, Spain, and his mission is helping high earning leaders multiply their options for the future without having to walk away from the career security they've spent decades building. Behind that mission is a guy who spent 26 years in corporate sales and sales leadership. He's traveled or worked in 87 countries. He's learned five languages, and he'll also be the first one to tell you he really, really liked the corporate world. So today we'll talk through the moment that changed the trajectory of his life and how that moment sent him on a mission to build a portfolio that would help him achieve the life he loves and lives now. So Billy, thanks for being here. Welcome to the show. Billy Keels: Hey, Sean, Kelly, thank you very much for the invitation. I'm listening to all that stuff and I'm like, I'm glad life keeps changing 'cause some of those numbers have changed and all this other kind of stuff. So it means I'm not staying static. Shawn Sundsvold: For sure. Isn't it funny you hear somebody read something about you and you're like, yeah, I I I did do those things, right? So Billy Keels: It seems fun. Shawn Sundsvold: for people who are just meeting you on our podcast, tell us a little bit about, what you're actually doing right now for the executives you advise. Let's just start there. Billy Keels: Yeah, you know what and and a first thing I I was like, Yeah, well C level executives. And that there's there's truth to that and there's also people who are not C level executives. They are senior directors, they are VPs and they're working in really big companies and most of them are in enterprise software. you know, some of the companies have sixty thousand employees, others have a hundred and fifty, two hundred thousand employees, although many of them are right sizing their organizations constantly nowadays. And yeah, to your point, I mean, what I what I do, I enjoyed the the 26 years in corporate. And so my real goal and passion is helping other people who are in corporate roles, like I said, a lot in our in enterprise software, to be able to like their jobs. Like I always liked my job when I was in corporate and to the point that when I heard you say he really liked his job, at certain point I used to tell people I love my job. But then I started working in For myself, the good and the bad, right? Because none of it's perfect. But I started realizing I didn't actually love my corporate role. I really, really liked it and a lot of the benefits that I got from it, being able to, have multiple six figure bonus checks and then, salary and being able to drive these nice German sports cars and have gas paid for and insurance and all this kind of stuff. But that was really just satisfying a certain part of my life. And I was also giving a lot of my time and I was giving it freely. I recognize that I was. probably at times giving too much of it away, but that's a whole different thing. I went through that so that I can help others not have to go through exactly the same thing that I that I went through. But it is about helping them understand that yes, you can really like your job and at the same time you can feel comfortable and not guilty about building something that you're doing on the side because the 168 hours that everybody has in a week, your employer doesn't own all of those. But many times because you're earning a big salary, you've got a lot of responsibility and you don't want to be reckless, you abdicate a lot of that responsibility or you think, I have to be doing this all the time. So that's really what I do. I help you know, people who are, you know, senior leaders in large corporations be able to enjoy their job, be comfortable with building a business on the side, something that they own that they control, which ultimately is gonna give them more control over their their time and their their income. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, I I love that. I think building a side hustle and building something as a legacy for yourself and your family is just there's there's just something to that, right? It's the Billy Keels: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: lifelong freedom. So you're coaching people who are basically in the same position that drove you to change your life. so what is it like coaching those people? Does it feel like you're getting some memories back or you're like, ooh, I'm triggered, or I've been there. And I can I can help you. Yeah. Billy Keels: No, yeah, so it and I love the question, Kelly. So it really depends on who who I am speaking with, right? And so I like to say that I'm more of an advisor than a coach, right? And and what I mean by that is when we're in the when we're talking about things that are happening within their corporate career, like on a day to day basis, maybe they have this question about whether they're gonna take the promotion or leave the promotion. Well, then I I really get a chance to go into coach mode because it's they already have the answer, so it's just about me pulling putting up the mirror in front of their face and having them really reflect on which path do they want to go down, helping them a answer the question themselves. And so that's when I put my coach hat on. And then when I'm putting on my you don't know what you don't know because it's about building a business on the side. It's about, you're in this, you've got this senior director role, you've got this VP role. You are the specialist in your area. And that's cool. But then when you don't know what you don't know, because now you're building this business on the side, you're going through actually what do I what are the s real concrete steps I need to put this business in in into practice? Do I need to have a 15 page business plan or do I just actually need to get results from the market? When you don't know what you don't know, that's when I go into tell mode. So it's I I like to say I'm more of an advisor than than a coach. And it's in those moments where the I I guess those what I would say is. Those are the moments when I really, really feel fortunate that I've already been through what they're going through right now. because I don't I really realize I went through all of these things were happening to me when I was in corporate. And then now it's with the perspective that I can really not just sympathize, but I can empathize with the person that's in front of me because I've actually been in their shoes. Do I take the promotion? Do I not? Do I tell anybody about what I'm doing on the side or do I not? Because I'm making a lot of money and everybody thinks that I'm not gonna be committed. these are all the stories that we tell ourselves, right? or maybe my boss is gonna say, well, I'm I'm cheating on the company or whatever the case may be. So I guess I kind of go back and forth, Kelly. Depends on really what the situation is. Very rarely do I feel triggered. I just feel really fortunate that I've already been through where they're going through right now. And it allows me to really help them move forward faster. because at the end of the day, the more time we waste, you know, we can all make more money, we can lose money. But none of us can make more time. And so at the end of the day, if I can help them get to the result faster, with me than without me, then I feel like I've been helpful. So hopefully that answers your question. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. It does. It does. it's really it's it's interesting watching and also too, I'm sure it's a little reflective for you, like you mentioned, like you can see how far you've come, like you've already been through this side and and you can help other people get to that freedom. So just kind of a follow up question here, does it really confirm that choice that you built your own path when you see someone achieve their goal? Billy Keels: yeah, it it helps. It it it definitely helps. And in terms of like the am I glad that I went through it and I achieved it or helping other people achieve it or both? Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, when you when you go through it and you see other people with those wins and they've really achieved it, it just really confirms that cho that choice, I'm sure, for you to go on this path. Yeah. Billy Keels: yeah. yeah, absolutely. I I you know I have a I I have a a client who recently was in a working in for a really large a very large enterprise software company that if I said it most people would know the the the name of the company and she had just come out of her corporate role. she decided there was a lot of reorganizations, things that like that that were happening. And so she came to me at this point where she was used to a lot of the structure that was happening in corporate. She'd been floating around as we we talked about it for about four months and was just really not sure what the next step was gonna be. And so, you know, do you go back to the corporate role because that was the thing you're known, but also had this kind of like goal and desire to do something different, but it was so far outside of what everybody knew that she wasn't sure she was gonna do it. And, you know, within the first month of being able to work together, help her to go out to find a client and I clearly identify that client, have the right proposal, feel confident about what she was doing and then be able to see first client that comes in just under 5K. Like, I feel really good about helping. Not not because of the size of the of the of the project, but more because this was somebody who didn't actually even think it was really possible or was really doubting themselves. And, you know, within a month of working together, it was like, okay, well this is a first this is a first win, leveraging all the the skills, the network and that you had from before there this is one of the paths forward. Now I'm sure she'll continue to to do lots of other things, but it was just being a part of that and and knowing that, you know, I'm helping someone else to get closer to their dream, h helping them to recognize what they like, what they don't like, so that they can contour their own journey is, you know, it's it's one of the most rewarding things for me, absolutely. Shawn Sundsvold: What's it like, you know, you just talk we're talking about the client there and kind of watching that light bulb moment for her, you know, to see like, hey, I can do this, right? Like what is you've been doing this and and sort of coaching, advising people now long enough, you've you've seen that happen a few times. You know, what and and every time I bet it's it's pretty exciting to watch it. Billy Keels: Yeah, be being a part of it is is the is the best thing in the world. Or, there's also the the moment like this is some you're you're you're having a doubt. But then also when I have another client that was going through a very high stakes negotiation that was happening with some with some of the assets that they had. And so, you know, we're having these calls internationally. Like my client was actually traveling internationally, you know, I'm in Barcelona, I'm traveling here, he was traveling different places, and we're going through this like really difficult, challenging multi-million dollar negotiation over some assets, right? And and there was a point where it was like, well, y this is option A or B. you just have that's, this is what you're you're going through. And I'm as a sparring partner, that's one of the things that I also really love. 'cause that's not just giving a framework and walking through a framework like in the trenches, hey, let's roll up Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Billy Keels: the sleeves is in in and that is a a multi million dollar impact for that person and his family. And to be able to be a part of that, and this time it also it worked out. There's other clients were, you know, we're going through really challenging other situations where, you know, maybe a a contract that they had that they'd signed that they probably shouldn't have signed and were trying to figure out, okay, well, how do we minimize challenges or minimize damage and and and those are they're not as h happy kind of situations, but they're reality. And so when that person doesn't normally have This happens frequently with clients, is they're going through new situations. They don't want to, you know, bring it home to their husband or to their wife. And they want to have somebody who has an outside vested interest in what's actually happening, not asking this mentor over here because they tell you one thing one day and then you ask the other mentor over there and they tell you something a different day. And so when I can be that person who's there consistently throughout their journey for the good and the bad, I mean, for me, yeah, I mean, I love being able to play that role and be able to help. my clients through through the good, the bad and the ugly. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. I'm curious, and I I think it would be great to hear just the story a little bit more of the story of how you got here. 'Cause you spent twenty six years, you know, in corporate world, in corporate sales and sales leadership. You know, w what was that career like for you and you know, and what kind of changed the trajectory of things? Billy Keels: So in corporate I yeah because I like I come from a family where I watched both of my parents work two jobs. Like I maybe if we took that step back. And so for me, I was always taught to work smarter, not harder, because you know, my parents working two jobs just to make ends meet many times. Like and it's not a woe is me story. Like we always had food on the table. There was you know, there wasn't an issue there, but my parents liter like they really struggled to you know, to move out to the suburbs. So we lived in the right school districts and all that kind of stuff. And And it was a struggle for them. And so I realized they went through all of this for me, my brother and sister. And so let me go out and just at least get those really good grades, get the good job, and then go out and and and you know, I ultimately I was supposed to get a white picket fence and all this other kind of stuff, but life kind of changed for me. but but when I went through those steps, I recognized one thing that happened. I got I got I dealt with rejection for the very first time. I didn't get my dream job, that really sucked. I didn't get it once. I went and reapplied for it the same the ne very next year, got rejected again. That doubly sucked. And so what it did though is it showed me that there was another path that was there for me. And so I started in this first role where I worked and five years, fifty-eight different countries working with Fortune five hundred CEOs, people like Ken Chenault, Jack Nasser, you know, Michael Dell. And it gave me some really great insight and being able to see the world and afterwards I Then got into enterprise software because I took a one year sabbatical right after that five years, 58 countries. by the way, Kelly, Sean, that one year sabbatical, it's now been 25 years. I've lived in four different count sorry, three different countries between France, Italy, and Spain, and four different cities in those countries and learned four additional languages. I was I guess I learned American English early on. But the thing is, and I'm telling that story because Because of relationships, I then got into the enterprise world. And I started in hardware where I worked at Dell. I was there for three and a half years. So between France and and Italy, as I'm smiling here, real big at Sean. if you know, you know. And if you don't, well, we'll tell you later. And so after that, then I got into enterprise software. And so in the enterprise software space, it was amazing, right? I mean, this was like it wasn't like the transactional fast stuff that was going on in Dell. And then when I was in this world, we had foosball tables, people like we had free coffee, we had all this kind of stuff. And I was like, my God, this is an amazing world. And I got to use my sales skills and sales knowledge. And then I got a chance to get great trainings and in lots of reps when I was in enterprise software. And the thing is, is I really, really enjoyed it. But something happened for me. I thought it happened to me, but now I recognize it's happened for me because as I was in the job, I was excelling, I was on the promotion path, I was in the what they call the catalyst program, but was the top talent program as most big other companies call it. but SAP called it something different. There was a moment when my son's third birthday party, and this is something I talk about, very openly, like was a young father and wanted to be a very present father. And the the morning of my son's third birthday, I actually woke him up and his mom and the his his younger brother and we were, you know, out and I woke them up and then I left at like six AM for a flight for Germany. And when I left, I remember leaving the flat and being in the elevator going down to the to the floor to the to catch the taxi cab. And I got to the airport and something just didn't feel right. Something was off. I was like, this is not, I don't want this. This is not it. And it really hit me later on that night because that night, of course, I called in and I called to say happy birthday again, because all of his my in laws were at our flat back in Barcelona. and I just remember like the birthday party happening and I was going to this business din dinner and I was like, This is not like yeah, I knew that I nobody put a gun to my head, tell me I had to be here. I wanted to be here. I thought I needed to be there, pre present, be promotable, be in the right places. And and it just like something inside of me just like cracked. And it made me think about a conversation that I had had four years before that with my boss. And my boss was telling me, still at SAP, he was telling me about, you know, he had rental properties and these rental properties were putting off so much amount of money every day. And I thought, man, I'm making a lot of money. working in this job, you must be making even more money than me. And why would you be doing anything other than this job? because this job pays us really well. And so I had that light bulb go off. And I really went down the path and I started becoming like this theoretical, ninja, but I wasn't in the game. And for four years I knew every single thing about real estate. I had watched every pod I'd listened to every podcast. I'd watched every video on YouTube at at the time. And it was just one of those things that for me, it was an emotional thing that was like, I just missed my son's third birthday party because I was out of whack with all this stuff. Like and I'd had all this knowledge that was stored, but that was the thing that I needed to actually go, okay, I gotta stop just studying this stuff. I actually need to do it because I Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Billy Keels: don't wanna feel like I have to get on the next plane. I d I wanna feel like I have more autonomy, more agency to be able to say. No, you know what? I'm not gonna go on this plane. And so that moment is the thing that got me into saying, Yes, I enjoy my career because I liked being able to sit down with CEOs from Fortune, five hundred companies and companies that did two and three billion dollars worth of revenue a year. And I wouldn't have been able to get that on my own in a little small business. So it was like I like my job and I wanna be able to have more agency over what I do. And so that's what took me down the path. And so, Yeah, I I really enjoyed corporate. I had a l a really lot of fun. and the thing that actually had me leave corporate had nothing to do with corporate. It was because another emotional life event happened for me and that my dad had some challenges with his health. My dad's alive and my dad's doing well. but that was a thing that made me realize because I'd been building this business on the side, and I know I'm going a little bit long here, but when I missed my son's third birthday party, that got me moving, and so for eight years I was building this business on the side that generally that actually eventually got to 41 different streams of income while I was still going to Hawaii, overperforming it, excelling in my role at at corporate, and really realizing that yes, money is important to make, but being able to generate and have control of assets that give you the freedom and the confidence to say no when a promotion comes up or to say no, you're not going to get on that flight. it just it's something that I enjoy helping other people do nowadays because there's no there's no feeling like that. in the last four years of my corporate career when I didn't actually need the paycheck because of the things that were happening outside of corporate but were in my control, I didn't need my paycheck anymore. So I was literally going into my job every day because I enjoyed going into my job. And it took that event with my dad to s to recognize like I don't want to put my boss under any more stress. I need to fly back to the States. I don't want to ask for permission. I don't need it. Now my boss gave it to me and everybody in the organization was very understanding, but I recognized by not being there in Q four at the end of that year, it wasn't the most comfortable situation for everybody. And so that was the moment where it was like, you know what, corporate's been really, really great. I like it a lot and now I need to go out and do do my own thing. So yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Exactly. you know, and it's it's it's the moment where you realize that life is short and those moments Billy Keels: Mm. Kelly Sundsvold: are really fleeting. Like your son's I could feel that, you know, that that that challenge of not being at your son's third birthday party, like, you know, it's everything to him. And, you know, it's it's small in the grand scheme of things, but it's everything to him. So being able to that's awesome that you were able to have that kind of epic. And light bulb moment. so walk us through, yeah. Yeah, of course. Billy Keels: K Kelly, can I can I can I just add one thing? Cause you said something that's super important. and I wish I could say that missing my son's third birthday party was for him. But my son was three. Like I tell the story and he hears the story now because people talk about it because I talk about it now, or I talk about it on my podcast. but it wasn't even about my son. It was because I wasn't aligned with what I said was important as a young father. Like I it hurt me. It ripped my heart out more than it did my son's. my son was having fun because he was surrounded by other family members. But it w it tore me up. I was literally like, I am like I didn't know how to explain it, but I was like, I should not be here right now. My son is having fun, he's doing his thing, he's surrounded by rest of the family members with gifts and stuff like that. But it just tore me up inside. So for it was less about my son and more about what I wanted out of life. And this is one of the things I talk to a lot with with my clients because there's so often that we say it's I'm doing it for this person or I'm doing it for that person. And of course we are to a certain extent. But in those places where most people don't really want to admit it out loud, I was also doing it for me. And so when I wasn't in alignment with myself, I couldn't look myself in the mirror. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Billy Keels: My son was happy to see me. My son, when I came home, was, you know, gave me a big hug and big kiss and all that other kind of stuff. But I was the one that was, you know, the I was the one that was heartbroken, if you have to say it that way. and that unf I don't want to say unfortunately, but like that was what it took for me to actually say, stop doing the theory, Billy. You've actually got to get in the game. And whether it works or it doesn't work, you've got to find out. Because I what I knew that I didn't want to do is just continue to have that feeling again, knowing that it was something that was in my control. And I didn't take the opportunity to say, look, I'm I'm actually going to to to find out if this is the thing or if it's not the thing. because it's also one of the things that I will will say is corporate was so good to me. Like I learned a lot. I it invested a lot of money in me to be able to sit in these different Classrooms and leadership trainings and sales trainings and techniques and all this other kind of stuff. But that also wasn't about corporate. It was more about me. It was like Shawn Sundsvold: Mm. Billy Keels: corporate is really great. I could have stayed there forever and done it forever. I made a lot of money for what I was doing. it was, it was it's insane. When you're in the enterprise software space, it's like most people don't even understand it. Probably professional sports athletes, maybe, but I mean, it's just an insane world. And and it wasn't about the role, it wasn't about the next title. It got to a point where it was about like I need to know if I can actually do this. And if I didn't, the worst thing that was gonna happen was, I I'd just go back and get a job. there's nothing wrong with that. There's no shame in that. and I've said it many times before, you know, if I would have had to go back, you know, I would go back. That's that's it's not a big deal. I think when we put our ego to the side, we can really learn a lot and we can help a lot more people. So sorry about that. I just I I did want to add that 'cause I think it's important. Kelly Sundsvold: yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: It is really important and it's it's it goes along with what you're talking about building the life that you want to live. It's not building it to ask permission for PTO. It's it's it's it's you being able to really navigate and be part of that you're the driver. You are the driver of your life and that's and that's what a lot of the advantages of being an entrepreneur is. it's hard Hard work and it is like you're constantly on. But yeah, at the end of the day, you do have choices. You are in that driver's seat. You're not building something for someone else, you're building it for yourself, your legacy, your family. so walk us through kind of what happened next. You left corporate, you started building, you had already started building the side hustle that really was outshining your main hustle, which yours, Billy Keels: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: your corporate job. so what What was the side hustle you actually built? Like you were talking about real estate and all that. So talk us through that. Billy Keels: Yeah, so so initially I got into the into the world of real estate and that was the thing. but I started realizing that and later I realized that it wasn't really just real estate, but it was the benefits that real estate was providing. Right. And so initially for me like I'd heard that all this, you know, you can go out and you can make cash flow and then appreciation and it was gonna help you save on your taxes. The whole taxes thing that I'm not gonna get into it. I'm not a tax professional, but when people tell you you can invest in real estate to lower your taxes, they really need to do a lot more homework because it's if you're earning a W two salary, it's it's not true. So but anyway, that's there there's ways for it to happen, but it's a lot more complicated than people make it. But I was I was not as informed as I should have been. But what it did is it allowed me to learn a lot more. And so I really like real, I liked and I still like real estate. I've just I'm a lot more informed on it now. So I actually understand how it works and a lot of the different benefits. And it's pretty awesome. but then that took me down another path to really it and more about the less about the assets. But what that first initial real estate did for me is it just opened my mind to recognize like I can actually own an asset that I control, that I can predict its. Outcome, meaning I can predict the revenue. It doesn't always happen that way. But if I set the rents and I know what the different expenses that we're gonna have on a monthly basis are, and I'm actually using debt, I can more or less predict what's gonna happen if the occupancy is at a certain way. So, what that did for me is it really opened my mind to think, it's not just about going in here, closing these deals, and getting a bonus check that maybe I'm gonna be able to put together, but after they do all the different takeouts and this and the spiffs and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't really I don't really know, but I knew it was a lot more than I was spending. So that that part was really good. But I would say more than and I talked about it earlier, the the the 41 different streams of income, it wasn't really about the income. I talk about it now and there was, you know, different different assets that that were a part of that. But it was the first experience and it was the understanding that real estate for me was the first thing. Maybe for somebody else it's gonna be you have a particular, you know, you have a massive skill in sales and you want to be able to leverage that sales and you have your own framework and your own take on the way that the sales profession should be done and maybe it's B to B or B to C. It's like how do you then bring that to the marketplace and and validate whether or not that's the that's the right thing. And so that's what I learned from like my path getting started and having those forty one different streams of income that actually those were wholly owned by companies. Then You could add a whole bunch of more like very small two to three and a half percent ownership, which I always love when people are like, Yeah, I had a thousand port portfolio, thousand units, and I'm like, and you're still working in your job? Like, what's what's going on? And then you scratch the surface and you're like, you actually own 1.25% of a thousand units. okay. Now that now the math makes sense. But that's a whole different thing as well, which is why I like to break it up. But you learn these things as you go. and the more the questions that you ask, the more curious that you are, then you can really find out what is happening. Now, eventually when the what when I finished my corporate career, then I did lean into more of just private equity and being able to raise my own capital for other ventures. Now some of those things worked and and some did not, but once again, you're you're either learning or you're you're earning or you're learning. And so there I've been through both of those paths. I've learned a lot about well, I've just learned a lot about business and and and who you work with and all those kinds of things. And then afterwards, actually getting to my goal and to my I would say to my dream, not having to work for someone else, it was after that and really being able to lend into what I call optionality that also in my own personal life went through divorce. And so that was a whole like thing that was like, wait, hang on a second, I got to the to the to the finish line and now things are changing again. And so what What I realized is going through all of these different life situations is are they difficult? Can they be difficult? Absolutely. But the question is, is do you get up again or do you kind of stay where you are? you know, but everything is a learning opportunity. So I I like the fact that you said that earlier, Kelly, but not everything about owning your own business is perfect. and so it's about the things that you like that you can embrace and that you can control. Is it worth getting up every single day and continuing to do it? versus, Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Billy Keels: taking a half a million dollar paycheck, you know, on a on an annual basis. So there's I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's just like what is right or wrong for you. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. And it it's interesting, you you just talked quite a bit on like your knowledge of like investing and real estate and, you know, all the different kind of ventures that you have been on, you know, through your investment and an investor journey. but what was it like teaching yourself to invest from like scratch? 'Cause you walked into this like you had a whole bunch of knowledge But now you're having to you're taking the step to do it. What was that what were those first few steps like and what mistakes did you make in those in those first couple of of deals? Billy Keels: The biggest mistake I made was waiting four years to actually take action. and anybody who is a perfectionist or like me, a recovering perfectionist, the biggest mistake I made was waiting so long. Like trying to get everything perfect. Like that like without a doubt, that was the biggest thing. Cause it was four years. And the thing I always talk about is you can't get the time back. I don't know how to stress it enough, but when you're like I I'm gonna think about it. Yeah, I'm gonna do okay, well, what exactly are you thinking about? Like Well, I don't know, but I need more time to think. Well, I don't know. I've never really thinking a mom thing has never really helped me make a decision. actually getting more data, getting more information, talking to the right person, and then doing something about it. Like, yeah, that that is something that's that's changed. So I would say if if there was the a mistake, it was that. It was not actually taking action sooner, getting the feedback and being able to adjust. but because I grew up thinking that if you had money in the bank, if you were saving, that was investing to me. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Billy Keels: That was just the environment I was in. Like, hey, you know what? Yeah, I'm investing. Well, what does that mean? Well, 'cause we got more money in the bank than we than we spent last month or the month before or whatever. But then there was also this moment of being really uncomfortable because although I couldn't really control it, like I've talked about equities or, you know, when you're when you have whether you're putting your money in a 401k or you're just try you have stock trading and things like that. there's a lot in that, but I wasn't sophisticated enough to know how to make that produce income for me. I knew buy low, sell high, buy l buy high, sell low. If you're doing, shorts and all this kind of stuff, but I wasn't sophisticated enough to really be able to do those things. So when I found real estate, it made sense to me. It was really simple, Shawn Sundsvold: Mm. Billy Keels: but I overthought it. And so one over overthinking and and wasting time. The second thing is actually when I did finally get the property, what I realized is I didn't have people around me that actually knew because they didn't no one owned real estate. And so what happened was I had my my dad and stepmom introduced me to a banker because they were in a different business. And so the banker then started telling me about different types of loans. So I went down the education path, but this time it was like with the focus of I know I realized how much money I was willing to lose. So I earmarked that money and said, this is the amount of money that I'm gonna spend. I'm going to take action by because I wrote this five year plan. I don't even know if I I don't know if I have it here. I know we're live in the interview, but I I don't have it here, but I I have this book where I actually wrote down my five year goal. And my five year goal, I accomplished it from taking action in eight in in a year and a half. But in that, I knew how much money I wanted to. the maximum amount of money that I was willing to lose. And so once I figured that out and the banker told me how the the lean the loans worked, then I realized I didn't have a handyman. So I had to get somebody there. And then I had to just basically it also took a long time, but I knew that I was ready to to invest in the property. And so, you know, four years after finally thinking about it and less than a year after missing my son's third birthday party, I actually made my first purchase and I was in Cairo, Egypt when I made my very first purchase on a property that was back on the east coast of the US. So it wasn't perfect, made a lot of mistakes along the way. But that very first one, after having overthought it for a long time, I was very fortunate in that I found someone who was a what they call a motivated seller. And I was able to put some money into, I think I put like twenty thousand dollars in the property. And then that property, because of the way that we structured the the rents and the expenses, that property Was producing $2,000 a month in free cash flow. And Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Billy Keels: so I was like, this is really it didn't change my life, but it was like, this is cool. And so then it was like, how do I do more of this? Now that first property was like a very from a financial perspective, after I put the money in it and was able to have the the rent higher than market rate, that worked. But Once again, and and I know Sean, you asked the question, but going back to Kelly, what you mentioned before, this is the thing that really r made me realize, my gosh, hang on a second. I thought through this, I built the team, it wasn't perfect, and then these things happened. We said it was gonna maybe produce a bit more, but this is actually cool. How do I get more of this? And so then Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Billy Keels: because that was a first positive experience, I then got the next property within like another six months. And then, you know, and now it's it started there, which is on tangible assets, alternative. And then it's gone now into even, intellectual property. And how do you use frameworks to help people who are in corporate be able to enjoy their corporate role and and and also build their own business on the side. So yeah, it's it was the beginning point. It's also things that didn't work, but ultimately I I I always like to figure out, okay, even the things that didn't work, what did I actually learn from it? So I can help Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Billy Keels: to improve myself and then also help to improve you know, others close friends as well as clients. Kelly Sundsvold: Good. Yeah, thank you for sharing all that. so talking about your podcast a little bit, I had a chance to check it out. you're the host of the Going Long Podcast with Billy Keels. so it's one of the top ranked shows in its category. What does it take? you know, we've been on this adventure almost a year now, so what does it take to build a podcast to that level? Billy Keels: So the first thing is you have to figure out how to get awesome guests. And so if I look up to the left, like guys like Sean Sunsville, who's been on the Going Long podcast with yours truly, Billy Keels, like that's the whole thing is getting the right guest. and and aside from that, it's you know, it's it's really being able to say, like, what are you doing the podcast for? Cause at this point, we have the podcast is six and a half years. We've published over six hundred and seventy episodes. And we have a wait list of people that want to be join podcast, months months down the line. And so it's just I enjoy doing the podcast. I really like when we talked about you really, really like something or I love it, I love the podcast. I love being able to meet new people, to talk about things that I like and also that my my my ideal listener likes, and the fact that I'm also talking about the problem that I helped solve. it just gives me energy every single day. And so there's it's really, really challenging to not enjoy the podcast because I'm talking about something that gives me energy. I'm meeting really cool people that have stories that are very, very different. And at the same time, a lot of the stories have very similar like foundations. And so when when you start to think, well, man, I'm the I'm the only one that's going through this, it's like, well, not really. Did you actually hear what Sean's been through because he's been through something similar and he's doing what he's doing now. And so you get a front row seat to all that and like what's not to love. And so when somebody says, Well, yeah, I'll join you on your podcast, it's like, All right, cool, this is great. So I get a chance to meet somebody else. So, and also having a really great team, I get a chance to just be in front of the camera and talk and and meet with people and it's great and the team makes sure that that the guests who are there are are are taken care of and that once the video goes through that it's edited and it shows up on different platforms and that starts new conversations. So there's so much that I l that I really, really love. I know there's a lot of things we could probably do to you know, reach more people and all this other kind of stuff. But I just love the fact that I love doing the podcast. So hopefully that answers your question. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, it it and I'm curious, you mentioned it, you've done over six hundred episodes. you know, what what's something you've learned from your own guests that has changed how you coach and advise your clients? Billy Keels: So we've published six hundred and seventy episodes. We've recorded a lot more than that. That's so one thing is also the so it kind of j joke about it, but it's always have like cause life happens, right? Life happens for everyone. And so one of the things it's not necessarily from the guests, but just knowing like when life happened for me after I finished corporate and went through my own life things. Fortunately, we had episodes that were available so that they continued to go out. So our audience was served because when you're a business owner, the show must go on. It's not like taking a day off of when you're in a W two, right? Or the W two equivalent. I know we're speaking to a lot of people around the globe. So if you you know, if you're working for some big company, you get paid by them and blah blah. so you know, those are the the the things that I can think of right now, but I think just in general it's you know, being able to Being able to constantly listen, that's also too especially nowadays, 'cause so many our minds go all over the place and stuff like that. And when I'm in front of my my podcast guests, I'm always listening to what they're saying. Just like when I'm in front of my clients and sometimes you may ask other people and they're like, Billy, did you hear what I said? Yeah, I did. Well tell what did I say? Okay, maybe I heard ninety percent of what you said. But when I'm in the podcast seat, it it that helps me in those interactions, just like when I'm when I'm speaking with my clients. So I don't know if I answered a hundred percent of what you were asking, but that that's one of the lessons I've you know that I've learned from being in the podcast host seat. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, th that active listening, that paying attention to, somebody and making sure that they are your one hundred percent focus and getting rid of the distractions, the phones, the you know, just being in a space where you can make sure you give them that attention. Is is yeah, is what I heard there. So yeah, fantastic. Billy Keels: See, there you go, you're doing the same thing, Sean. Shawn Sundsvold: Ha ha. Billy Keels: I love it. Shawn Sundsvold: Maybe I'm doing okay at this, you know. Kelly Sundsvold: We learn from the best, Billy. I don't know. So Billy Keels: Right. That's why you all work together. Kelly Sundsvold: right, right, right. It takes two brains. No, I don't know. We have a lot of fun together. and honestly, like very similar. We do love to meet new people, you know, and talk to great people such as yourself. So what's a way that somebody obviously we want people to listen to your podcast, but what are other ways that people can get in contact with you? Billy Keels: Yeah, I think if you're so for the person who is a a, you know, you're in a corporate role, you enjoy what you're doing, you want to be able to build a business on the side, the best way to learn more about what we're doing, you know, Kelly, you already talked about it. Go along podcasts with Billy Keels. the other thing is if you want to find out directly, like with real stories with clients and things like that, if you go to make it optional dot com, it's makeitoptional.com. Just leave your name, email address, and then you'll enter into our world. You'll get some real life case studies, exactly how, working with other people, especially when you're in these scrolls where you just don't want everybody to know that you're doing something on the side, at least not in the beginning. this is a great way for you to to to start the journey. I love being on LinkedIn as well. I know they say you should just go to one place, but I love being on LinkedIn. I've I am the only Billy Keels that I know of in Barcelona, Spain. So when you when you do reach out. The thing that I always like to ask is just let me know that you've already listened and watched us here, on Better Together and it you know, we'll continue to keep the conversation going and anybody wants to just look me up, Billy Keels, and it's Billy Keels dot com as well. So Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. Thank you very much, Billy. We appreciate your your time and your honesty and just your transparency about what the journey was for you. you know, for our audience we'll make sure that all of Billy's contact information is in the show notes. And yeah, Billy, just thanks for being here. We appreciate it. Billy Keels: Yeah, Sean Kelly, thanks so much. keep doing what you're doing. You continue to reach out and and make connections with people and it's super, super awesome. keep up keep things going and you got another fan in Billy Keel, so Kelly Sundsvold: Thank you. Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. Thanks a lot. Take care.