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What It's Really Like to Work with a Divorce Coach with Guest Cindy DiTiberio · Divorce Coaches Academy

• Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention. welcome or if you are joining us again, welcome back to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. Today's episode ⁓ is little different and something I've been wanting to do for quite a while. ⁓ We often talk about the role of divorce coaching and how it can support people through the legal, emotional, practical challenges of divorce. But what we don't always get to do is hear directly from someone who's actually been on the receiving end of that divorce coaching support. So that's what today is really all about, giving you a chance to hear firsthand what that experience can look like and feel like and what impact it can have. So I am joined by Cindy DiTiberio and many of you, I bet know her from her really popular substack, The Mother Load. So Cindy, welcome to the podcast and thanks for taking the time out today. Cindy DiTiberio: Thanks for having me. It's always good to see your face. Tracy Callahan: We love it. ⁓ Just to start us off, folks have a little bit of background, can you share a little bit about the mother load, why you started it, and maybe how it's evolved over time as you've gone through your own separation and divorce? Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah, so I started the mother load ⁓ in November, 2021. So this was like right after pandemic motherhood, which was so rough for many of us. And for me also, pandemic motherhood was such a challenging time for me and really brought to light maybe my discomfort in motherhood, my frustration with motherhood. My youngest kid had just gone to kindergarten before the pandemic started. So I felt like I had finally made it. I was finally having like days to myself. and then my kids boomeranged right back and never left. And so I started the mother load just as like this, ⁓ my gosh, can we believe that this is what motherhood requires in our country? Like the lack of support, how short school days are, all the days off, know, just all of the like ridiculous, no paid leave, all of those problems. And then I just kind of continued to, you know, as my own life evolved and we got out of pandemic parenting. I realized a lot of my frustrations and difficulties were actually tied to marriage and my marriage in particular. And so then I started really talking about marriage. mean, like, ooh, why are our lives so different? Why is motherhood so much more encompassing than fatherhood? And it turns out it's because I was writing about marriage was because it was really like my marriage was ending. I didn't, sometimes you've got to write your way through to the truth. And... writing on the motherhood, on the mother load actually, I think helped me name some of like the fact that I was maybe done with my particular marriage. And so then the mother load became about divorce and separation and what that's like to as a mother, you know, lose access to your kids for so much time, but also what it can give back to you when you do have that time. think one of the hardest parts of motherhood for me was just its intensity that it never ended. There was always someone who needed something from me. And if I was going to provide it, I need to ask my husband to provide it. And it just, it was relentless. And so in some ways I found a lot of ⁓ freedom in divorce parenting and having just ⁓ joint custody. But it's still been, I have been, let's see, I moved out of my family home about three years ago. Tracy Callahan: Cough Cindy DiTiberio: Took about 18 months to get divorced. But I have one of those divorces that doesn't really ever want to seem to end in terms of like a very Challenging relationship with my ex where we just constantly still seem to be on the cusp of litigation Or at least we're still fighting about stuff ⁓ And that's really hard too and not every marriage truly ends when you move out ⁓ You have to have both people who are willing to like let go ⁓ And so I write a little bit about that too, what it's like when it just, you know, it doesn't really end. You you're still in relationship with that person because they're your kid's parents. So I write a lot about that. And really also because I'm a storyteller, I also then started sharing other people's divorce stories on the mother load. ⁓ one of the, I think one of the greatest things I offer is my series called The Divorce Diaries, where I interview women anonymously about the divorce. and like all the things like how much you spent on legal fees and what do you regret and like, do you get child support? How much? How did you figure that out? Like all the things you wanna know as a woman about to go through a divorce, but nobody knows up about it. And I have 16 of those now that live on the mother load. I just think it's. Tracy Callahan: Exactly. They're amazing, you guys. need to go listen. They are. Cindy DiTiberio: They're a really good resource. Like they're just, there's no house like that. I don't think anywhere on the internet. So, and I'm so grateful to these women who've opened up in this way. And actually my most recent one was a woman who had read previous ones that had helped her so much. And so she was like, I really want to share mine. Cause I know how helpful those other ones were for me. So it's like, they want to keep giving back. Tracy Callahan: Bye. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's not only your honesty and transparency in sharing about your own, how you came to the decision and then how you navigated this, what was essentially a really complex divorce. ⁓ You're honest, but you're also nuanced and you do such a good job of capturing, I think, like you said, there's the practical side of divorce or what we call the business of divorce. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: There's the emotional side. ⁓ So before we jump in to talk about kind of what Cindy's experience was, what looked like working with a coach, I want to be transparent that Cindy and I worked together during her divorce and separation. And I had the privilege of supporting her as her coach. So what I'm hoping this conversation can provide is just some insight into her experience. What was helpful? What wasn't? What she learned along the way? Like that's what I'm hoping you'll be able to share with some of our readers, listeners, viewers, whatever. Yeah. So let's go back to the beginning. And when you think about like the really earlier stages of your separation and divorce process, let's, let's tap into the emotions for a minute and tell me what stands out to you about kind of what that time felt like. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah. Yeah, you know, are coming to the point of divorce was such a it was actually like a slow process for us. And I think that's probably the case for a lot of people I saw somewhere and I can never find this stuff that it like, on average, it takes people like three years contemplate divorce before they act on it. And which to me, I remember when I saw that I was like, ⁓ my god, that's so long. But that's like, probably how long it took for me to like, it's just such a Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Cindy DiTiberio: to be able to name how unhappy you are, then to be able to say, okay, we're gonna do something about it. So it was a really slow process until that moment that I was like, that's it, I'm actually done. And then that moment was pretty swift. But it's like our marriage had been probably ending for three years. And then I would say intensely ending for like nine months. And then we'd done a trial separation where we nested and moved back and forth. for probably three months. But you know, it's so hard to just say that's it, I'm done. know, ⁓ that's the hardest moment. And so I think, ⁓ but I, know, the moment was filled with clarity for me. And so ⁓ once I made that choice, I feel like all I felt was relief. And it was like, the wavering was done, the back and forth was done. And then I knew what I needed to do, which was like, okay, now I got up. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Cindy DiTiberio: find a place to live and now we have to tell the kids. And it was like, I could focus on the tangibles instead of living in that amorphous space of am I, what are we doing? Which is such a painful, painful process. I think what was, yeah, go ahead. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Can you clarify for me? Because this is anecdotally what I think most people experience is it isn't a big thing. I call it the night I took dinner out of the oven and it was a small thing, but it gave me that clarity. wasn't the biggest fight we ever had. It wasn't the worst thing he ever did. It was something subtle and yet it clicked that time. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes, and for me it was like, I had a lot of, my husband lied to me a lot in our marriage and I would know that he was lying, but like would be gaslit. so it was a moment when I discovered he was lying to me again. And I was like, I never want to feel this way again. It was just, it's so horrible to have the person that is supposed to love you the most. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. and Cindy DiTiberio: literally be lying to your face and not just lying to your face, but double lying to your face when you confront them. And so it was like, I knew the only time I would never feel that way again, as if we were done. And it was just like, couldn't tolerate the feeling anymore. I was just unfeeling that way. So, ⁓ exactly. Yes. Tracy Callahan: Right. Right. Done. But it wasn't the first time he lied. It wasn't the 10th time he lied. It wasn't the 25th time he lied. But for some reason, the 113th time, like that one's it. So I think sometimes people think it's going to be a big thing. And I think it's when you're in that contemplation phase, there's just like a crystalline moment that comes. Yeah. Okay. So you finally had your moment. It kind of moves you into action then. Cindy DiTiberio: Now we've nailed it! Yeah, yeah. Tracy Callahan: and you knew what you wanted to do. You knew what steps you needed to take. But when we talk about kind of when you brought me into the process, what was the point where you realized you might need a different kind of support than just an attorney or just your girlfriends? Cindy DiTiberio: I I knew pretty early on because I had a girlfriend who had gotten divorced and she was like, here's my divorce coach. You need her also. I had gotten my lawyer from another girlfriend who had gone through a divorce, but this one was so clear on like, you're going to need a divorce coach. And I used Debra and she's amazing. And I didn't question it. So I just like reached out to you. And I knew, you know, first of all, lawyers are so expensive. They're so busy. And I... knew I was going to need. And I had a therapist too, but I knew I was going to need as much support as possible during the next year of my life. That a therapist wasn't enough, a lawyer wasn't enough. ⁓ And that I would need someone to be a sounding board. So you were very early on one of my calls. ⁓ And I just kept booking more and more sessions with you as it dragged on. And I just needed someone else to debrief all of the various. There was so much on the table. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Right. Cindy DiTiberio: We had a very complicated divorce. ⁓ And so I just, could not spend all that time with my lawyer. First of all, she didn't have the time. Also, I didn't have the money to spend with her, like talking through the nuances. And one of the things I remember was so frustrating, and I don't remember where the question comes from, but the question often is for women in particular, when they're getting a divorce, is like, well, what do you need to walk away? Or whether it's a mediation, like, well, what do you need? And I'm like, Tracy Callahan: very. Cindy DiTiberio: What do you mean? What do I need? I don't know. I don't know what I need. I don't know what my costs are. I just moved out. I wasn't involved in the finances previously. like, help me understand how I know how to answer that question. And I remember feeling angry at that question because I did not feel equipped to know what I was gonna need or want to be able to walk away. And so I feel like we spent a lot of time working through that question and really getting into like, my finances of what it was gonna cost to live, where I was living with rent and all the other things and just the financial aspects of it were really a key part for me to just get my feet under me before I go into any sort of divorce negotiation. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Right. And I think that that's a really, really critical part of the work that coaches can do because your attorney can tell you what you're entitled to. And that might be one line in the sand, but that negotiation isn't just about getting what you're entitled to. That would be litigation. Negotiation is in order to really negotiate effectively, you have to have a better understanding of Cindy DiTiberio: Yes. Right. Tracy Callahan: what you need. And that is hard work. That's a lot of digging. And if you've been in the kind of marriage you were in, I was in, like, we didn't spend a lot of time thinking about what we need either, right? What do I need? No one asked me that for decades. Like, I don't know about you, but yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes, right. ⁓ are you kidding me? that? ⁓ That's probably why I was so triggered by it. was like, what do you mean? What do I need? That's never important. You know, I mean, like, and I've never identified that until you said that just now, but because I remember feeling almost enraged by the question because I, you know, like, and maybe that reaction. And I think some of that was frustration. And also, I think, I also think there's something about that question that rubs me the wrong way because I don't think men are asked what they need, right? Like men. Tracy Callahan: Okay. Interesting. Cindy DiTiberio: I feel like the baseline, and this is just me with some of my feminism, I feel like the baseline of divorce is like, well, men get to hold it all and then they dole out to their ex-wives. And I hate that framing because it's not theirs. It's ours. It's not about what I need. Well, what does he need? Let's just reframe it, and this is all mine. What does he need to walk away? Like, I would rather, let's just flip the script on that a little bit, but that's not how it seems. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. hours. Great. Right. What I hear with what do you need is what is the minimum amount? Right. That's kind of how I remember that. What is the minimum amount that we can get you out of this for? Cindy DiTiberio: Yes, to get this to be done. Yes, yes. And I get, I don't remember exactly where that phrasing came from, but I remember really just feeling like, my goodness, that is not helpful. It makes me feel like I'm just taking and it makes him feel like he's doling out. And that's just, you know, and listen, a lot of men who were the primary or the higher earners in the marriage do feel like that's how it is. You know, I just think all of divorce could be talked about in a different way that wouldn't feel quite so. Tracy Callahan: Right? Yeah. That's right. Cindy DiTiberio: patriarchal, I think. But the framework is, you know, it comes from, you know, different times when it was, you know, all the spouses were all that it was like, because they couldn't earn on their own, you know, we're still coming from a very antiquated system. I mean, all of marriage is an antiquated system. So therefore, divorce is all. Tracy Callahan: Yes. Yeah, that'll be another podcast episode where we can rant about that together. ⁓ Talk to me about, so you and I engaged, we kind of dug into this question of what do you need? What does that look like? What's it going to cost you to live? What's your cash flow? How much are you going to earn? Like, what's this going to look like? ⁓ Cindy DiTiberio: Yes, yes. Tracy Callahan: As we kind of worked through that and did some of the other things, talk to me about how having that kind of support, the extra person on your team impacted maybe how you chose to work with your attorney and or how you kind of approach decision-making. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah. I mean, I think it helped me go into meetings with my lawyer with more of a sturdy sense of, I have these questions. I want us to unpack this. I need our forensic accountant to look into this. Rather than going into a meeting being like, well, what are our next steps? I feel like we often kind of strategized ahead of time so that I was more concrete. And the more concrete you are, Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Cindy DiTiberio: the less you spend imbillable hours, right? You don't wanna be circling a topic. You wanna be very targeted. So I think it helped in that regard. Yeah, there were just so many different pieces of the puzzle. And honestly, if I had to do it over again, here's what I would do. And I know it sounds a little ridiculous and you and I have never talked about this. But if I had to do it over again, I would have had you on every call with my lawyers. Tracy Callahan: Ooh, good. Cindy DiTiberio: I think I really needed someone literally butt and seat next to me the whole time because I often felt like I'm the only one holding all of these really important details and I would tell you some and then I would tell them some, but it was a lot of responsibility to hold it alone. I think so much of me just wanted someone there every single step of the way, almost like, ⁓ and I know that's a lot of hours with you too, but I think it would have helped me. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: to just not have to recap stuff with you. And you might even have had questions from my lawyers in those sessions. Like that's how much I trusted you in that process. Like I just, I'd had you there for all of it. And again, you don't know until you've gone through it, but that is something I wish I'd done differently. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And that is something that some clients have asked me to do, particularly those that really are kind of being traumatized by the process, because we would talk about something in session, they would go meet with their attorney. And then I would say, well, so how did they answer this question? Or did you ask this follow up? And there was just like deer in the headlights. So sometimes I'm just that presence that reminds you. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes. Tracy Callahan: Remember, Cindy, we talked about this and you have this question for your attorney. Yeah, that was important. We identified that that was something I needed to know for decision making. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes. Yes. And I think that's such an interesting point to me because I do think I was like re-traumatized in my divorce by interactions with my ex. And for the first like nine months of my divorce, I couldn't even be in the same Zoom room with him. Like I couldn't even, like it would be too, like I would be in fight or flight, even just seeing him. And then eventually in probably even in our work together, I got to the point, cause we ended up, we tried mediating and it didn't work. Tracy Callahan: and Yeah. course. Cindy DiTiberio: And so I walked away from mediation and eventually we ended up doing a settlement conference in person. But I never, I never would have been able to tolerate that the nine months previous. But by that time I had gotten sturdy enough to be like, can, I can be in the room with him. I can hold my own. We've done enough work together. I think with you, I often use this word sturdy or steady, like, because I was very Tracy Callahan: Sturdy is one of my favorite words. Cindy DiTiberio: Probably sturdy because I think I was so not on solid footing when we started working together. And then over the process, as I also went crazy and always just did so much research on divorce and was writing about divorce and like immerse myself in divorce and all of the things, I just felt sturdier to be able to go into that settlement conference, sit across the table from him and finalize things, which nine months ago, that me would have been shocked I was able to do that. Tracy Callahan: Mm I love that. Yeah. We're a topic that we address in our training when we're certifying other divorce coaches is working with clients on distress tolerance is like, see him, I immediately have a reaction, I'm uncomfortable. What do I need? What were identifying what works for me so that I can sit in that distress and still show up for myself. Cindy DiTiberio: Hmm, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's hard. mean, one of the things that I think is so tragic about the process of divorce is you literally like you're leaving the marriage because you don't want to have to come to agreement with Emma about anything anymore. And then divorce is like the ultimate like you have to agree to things. And I'm like, wait a second, I'm leaving this marriage so I don't have to convince him of stuff anymore. Why am I still in this? So it does feel re traumatizing because you literally cannot get out unless Tracy Callahan: Praise. does. Cindy DiTiberio: you come to an agreement. So it's just like, it's just the perfect storm, I feel like, of all the re-traumatizing parts of the marriage that are just in your face. And the stakes are so high too. Tracy Callahan: They're so high and they feel life or death, which also then it's all activating the fight or flight, right? It's all a threat. And I don't know if you're familiar with David Rock's scarf assessment, but we talked about that. It's the five things that either reward or threaten human behavior. And they are all under attack in divorce, status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes, they do. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: and all of those feel threatened. And so your amygdala is like blowing up at all times. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes, yes, I will say that is 100 % evidence. Yes. Tracy Callahan: That was your experience. Okay. Gosh, I wish we had so much more time. ⁓ Overall, maybe could you kind of describe you've talked a little bit about it, but how do you think really having me as a divorce coach impacted things like how you handled conflict? How it impacted the total costs of your divorce process? You talked about your emotional sturdiness, and you'll, that's something that hopefully you'll carry on forever with, but what else would you say? Like, how did this show up for you or what were the benefits for you? Maybe I'll summarize it that way. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, just having a sounding board of someone who understands this, it's such a steep learning curve because when you start to get divorced, you don't know anything about it. You know, you really don't. You're just like thrown into the water and expected to swim. And so having someone to explain how things work again, who is not my lawyer and my lawyer. Good Lord. I live in California. I forget exactly how much she charges. It was over six hundred dollars an hour. So it was so much more beneficial to be able to Tracy Callahan: now. Yes. Cindy DiTiberio: question and ask you and strategize with you before I went to her. And again, I had a lot of also so many different pieces. But when you have a complicated divorce, like mine was very complicated. just you need someone else, I think, other than your lawyer to support all of that. And then I will say, as you know, I have continued to use you in the three years. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: Or I guess it's been a year and a half since I've been officially divorced. I have still used you and every time I reach out I'm like I feel so silly that I am reaching out because I know I'm divorced But I have needed support after Tracy Callahan: Your conflict has been ongoing. The divorce did not resolve the conflict. You don't seem to be able to navigate with this person. Yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes. And so just being able to like say, you know, again, I forget how many times it's happened. It's probably happened three or four times in those, in that year since we've been signed and being like, what do I do here? What are my options? And so just to know that I still have, you know, someone to reach out to about divorce related things, it's comforting. Yes. Tracy Callahan: And who knows your story at this point? Who knows what you've been through? So you don't have to retell it to somebody, right? Yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah, so I you know again, I think we all need support in life more than we asked for anyway I mean, especially when you're going through divorce you literally just need like a team of people surrounding you whether it's friends therapist advisors ⁓ Because it's such a huge transition and such a fragile state like you're really at this like cusp of like a new identity a new life and you want people there who are gonna get you set up for the best future possible. And I really feel like you are one of those people who continues to support me in that way. Tracy Callahan: Thank you so much. It's been my absolute pleasure to ⁓ be going through this with you and for however long it takes, we'll keep doing it, right? And I just, when you agreed to come on and have this conversation, especially given that we work together, it's just so meaningful and your ability, you're so good at articulating, like you're giving our listeners, our viewers a clear picture of kind of what this divorce coaching support looks like. in real life, right? And because it isn't just a legal process. If it was just legal, your attorney would get you through it. It's so much more than that. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah, yeah. No, if it was just me, yes. It is so much more than that, and I really do. I have been so thrilled with how sturdy I have come out on the other side, and I really do think that's part of it. And my goodness, what a gift to feel capable and I can handle this. And that was not how I went into my divorce. I think I felt very unprepared. And then I came out being like, ⁓ man, I nailed that. And not everyone feels like that. Yes, totally, that feeling like very much like a badass and like I've done what I needed to do. I wish my divorce had ended, but maybe one day. I mean, that moment was, but we have to take those wins when we can and also just recognize there's only so much you can control. And that's the phase I'm in right now, I think, is just being like, okay, this is how things are. Tracy Callahan: That actually. Cindy DiTiberio: with him, what do I need to do to protect my own peace? Because staying in this is not good for me. And it's hard. It's really, really hard. And I wish there was more of a handbook on the post-divorce for people who really can't seem to stop getting divorced. And I think there are a number of us where really you feel kind of trapped in the divorce process, even though that paper has been signed. So I'm trying to write about that a little bit without divulging too much, because it's hard. He hates my writing, as you can imagine. ⁓ But I think, again, I'm such a storyteller. think when we share our experiences, there are so many people who are like, ⁓ my god, it's not just me. That's such a gift. That's 100 % why I do all of my writing, is so that people don't feel like they're the only ones, because they're not. It's so common what we go through. Tracy Callahan: Yes, I'm sure. Right. It really is. really is. ⁓ Well, let me just jump ahead and say, let's before make sure before we wrap up here, tell everybody exactly where they can find you. I want y'all to go read her sub stack. Cindy DiTiberio: Yes. Yeah, the mother load is sub stack. I'm also on instagram at Cindy dot D to burial. But pretty much you can find everything that we've been talking about all of my writing about this ⁓ on the mother load. And then my other websites are there too. But that's where you know, again, it's where I'm unpacking my own work and then sharing other people's stories and really trying to talk about the piece, the sides of divorce that don't always get disclosed. ⁓ Because you know, this is divorce is Tracy Callahan: And you are raw and honest about it too. That's why I think it's gotten so popular. People are resonating with how real you show up in that writing. Cindy DiTiberio: of life and it's hard when you're yes Yeah, thank you. I mean, again, there are pluses and minuses to it, but it feels, it's really important. It's really important work. ⁓ And I'm happy to just, you one of the ways I process is by writing. So if it helps other people, it's great. Tracy Callahan: Awesome. And we'll be sure to put the link to your sub stack in the show notes so people can find it. Yeah. So, ⁓ if you're listening and this conversation is resonating and you're thinking, huh, I wonder what it would look like for me to have that kind of support. What I would love for you to do is go to divorcecoachesacademy.com. have Cindy DiTiberio: us. Tracy Callahan: All of our certified coaches are there on a coach locator. You can find somebody that is the gender you want to work with, that has a specialty you want to work with, that's in your state. ⁓ Doesn't have to be in your state, but because we live thousands of miles apart, right? And yet it works beautifully. Cindy DiTiberio: You sure did. It did. Tracy Callahan: It did. Yeah. So If you could leave our audience with one nugget, what might that be today? Let's close out with just the most important thing to you. Cindy DiTiberio: Don't be afraid to need a lot of people in your corner during this phase in your life. And there are gonna be also, and some of them you're gonna pay, like a divorce coach, but they're also, you your friends who you don't have to pay. you really, when I envision myself going through this time in my life, it was like, had like an army of people just like behind me, right? Like we don't have to go through this alone. We are not equipped to go through this alone. And often we just need conversation partners. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: people who've been there, like divorce coaches, understand the process and don't berate yourself for not knowing how divorce works. There's just, and it's complicated and it's different on every state and every divorce is different depending on your own, like your assets and how you, who works and who doesn't, you have kids. It's such a complicated thing. It is a fine, yeah. Tracy Callahan: your relationship history, your conflict styles, your just everything. Cindy DiTiberio: everything gets brought up in a divorce. So having someone there to just like walk you through all of it is, I mean, I don't know how I would have gotten through it without Deborah. And I was lucky that I had that friend who literally like Deborah's name was in my phone within like probably two weeks of me deciding to leave. And I did not hesitate to get on her schedule. ⁓ yeah, that's you just be afraid to ask for help. This is the one time in your life where you really just Tracy Callahan: Bye. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Love it. Cindy DiTiberio: You need it and then you're through to the other side. And the other thing I always say is like, wow, I have yet to meet a woman who got divorced who regrets it. Like they may regret how they handle things like I do, but they all just feel so relieved and happy and lighter on the other side. They become evangelists for divorce for a reason. Because if you're questioning whether your marriage is right for you, it probably is not. And just get on through to the other side and join us. It's great over here. Tracy Callahan: Right, yeah, and if you're going through hell, keep going, right? Keep going. Get to the other side. Yeah, good. We're over here and we're happy. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah, yeah. There is something on the internet. Yes, so happy. mean, it feels weird to say because it is about the disillusion of relationship and it is hard on the family, but your, your soul is so important. And I think we get squashed sometimes and think that it's tolerable, but it's not when you feel like the air to be able to be yourself and prioritize yourself. It feels like finally taking the biggest deep breath when you've been like choking for air for years. So it's life giving. It really is. Tracy Callahan: Right. It is, and it's life giving to our children too. So let's talk back to, you know, where you started with the mother load. It's like, what is this feeling like for me and how, and that impacts our ability to show up as a really joyful and ⁓ fully filled with life parent. When we are tolerating less than what we need, it cascades down onto our kids. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It does. They only got a tiny piece of me when I was married and now they get like the full expression. Tracy Callahan: Right. People say, they talk about, staying for the kids. And I'm like, what if you left for your kids? So they can see the fully human, alive, zestful version of you. Yeah. Cindy DiTiberio: Yeah, yeah, because they get to Absolutely. It's such a gift for everyone. It really is so Tracy Callahan: Yes, it is. All right. Well, again, thank you so much. We're going to put ⁓ links to Cindy's stuff in the show notes so you can find her. Please do. And Cindy, thank you so much for being willing to come on and just chit chat a little bit about our work together. Cindy DiTiberio: ⁓ listen, it's always so fun to talk to you, so thank you for having me. Tracy Callahan: Good. Well, not that I want you to book another appointment because I want your conflict to be over, but same thing. I always look forward to seeing you on my calendar. Cindy DiTiberio: Yep. Hey, listen, it's life. Sometimes we need help. I'm not going to feel bad about it. Tracy Callahan: We need help. need each other. We do. We do. All right. Thank you guys for joining us today and the podcast will be back next week with another topic to help you navigate this stuff with clarity and hopefully some grace. Thanks. Cindy DiTiberio: Exactly.