Latest / Chuck Douglas / Adam Shelton from The Goldwater Institute

Transcript

Adam Shelton from The Goldwater Institute · Chuck Douglas

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I have a story for you tonight about a woman
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: named Nicole. Nicole is a mom. Nicole is a mom
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: in Indiana. More specifically, although not very specifically, Nicole has
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: kids and UH, and one of her kids got on
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: a school bus had some issues. I'm not even sure
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: what the issues were. The conduct of the bus driver
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: was in some way a problem for not only Nicole's kid,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: but with her other kids on the bus and UH,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: and Nicole was upset about it, and she filed a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: complaint and then she went to the school and she
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  Speaker 1: had a conversation with the principal and the short answer
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  Speaker 1: for the principal is Amen, he's no my problem, man.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: That's a bus thing. This is a school thing, man.
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  Speaker 1: So the principal didn't do anything to help.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Well.
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  Speaker 1: Nicole recorded the conversation with the principal, posted it to
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  Speaker 1: social media, along with her grievances about the problems with
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: the bus driver. Got a cease and to sister or
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, saying hey, hey, you
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: can't do that. We have a policy that says you
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: can't record conversations with school people. And by the way,
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  Speaker 1: you're banned from your kids school. You can't even come
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  Speaker 1: to the school because we don't like what you did.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Take it down and stuff and things, and so Nicole
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: was not happy, obviously with that result. The school board
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  Speaker 1: has since rescinded that banning from the school, but there
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: is a lawsuit in progress now. The Goldwater Institute has
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  Speaker 1: taken on the case and representing Nicole, claiming essentially that
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  Speaker 1: her First Amendment rights are being violated. Now, I am
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  Speaker 1: philosophically on board with Nicole. You know, I'm sick, especially
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: you know, school systems, but public entities in general, those
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  Speaker 1: who are supposed to be serving us. I'm just I'm
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  Speaker 1: tired of them acting as if we are their servants
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  Speaker 1: and dictating to us. But I think this may be
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  Speaker 1: a loser in a court room. Obviously, the statutes will vary,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm not sure in Indiana. Ohio is, for example,
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  Speaker 1: one party state. So I can record a phone call
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  Speaker 1: with Zach and not tell Zack I'm recording him. That's
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  Speaker 1: legal in the state of Ohio as long as one
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  Speaker 1: party in the conversation is aware of the recording of
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  Speaker 1: the call. I don't know if that's how it works
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  Speaker 1: in Indiana. The thing of it is is policy is
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  Speaker 1: not law, and if indeed Indiana requires notification, I don't
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  Speaker 1: know how this stands up in court. However, I am
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  Speaker 1: very interested in the case because I love I love
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  Speaker 1: people fighting back. I love people not taking it up
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  Speaker 1: the nose from their city hall, their city council, their
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  Speaker 1: mayor their school system, whatever, because we need more of that.
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  Speaker 1: This is this is the modern day protest. You know
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  Speaker 1: what I mean. The world changes, technology changes, circumstances change,
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  Speaker 1: and this is people standing up and saying you know,
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  Speaker 1: hell no. So you've got the story, the background a
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: little bit. At least. Adam Shelton is with the Goldwater Institute.
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  Speaker 1: I believe an attorney, but I'm not sure if Adam's
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: the attorney representing in the courtroom or not. Let me
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: see if I can get him on. Adam, are you
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  Speaker 1: with me?
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Thanks for having me today. I'm the attorney representing
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  Speaker 2: a Nicole in this case.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate you joining me tonight for the power hour.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't know what is right off the bat.
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  Speaker 1: What is the statute in Indiana? Is it a two
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  Speaker 1: party notification state or is it okay for one party
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  Speaker 1: to be aware and to keep it quiet from others?
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  Speaker 2: A couple things about that. So Indiana is a one
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  Speaker 2: party consent state, so as long as one party consents
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  Speaker 2: the coorting, that's fine. The Indian stream Quarter has actually
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  Speaker 2: made it very clear though, that that only actually applies
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  Speaker 2: and the whole one party consent state issue only applies
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  Speaker 2: to phone conversations, not kind of in person conversation, So
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  Speaker 2: that wouldn't even even even if it was a two
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  Speaker 2: party state, it would not have prevented Nicole from recording
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  Speaker 2: the conversation here, and even kind of if that were
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  Speaker 2: the situation, Nicole has a first center rights to record
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  Speaker 2: this type of conversation or conversation with the government employee
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  Speaker 2: about her child, and the First Amendment kind of trumps
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  Speaker 2: everything else.
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  Speaker 1: Well, and that's I guess the interesting party. If you
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  Speaker 1: dissect the First Amendment, the the ability the right to
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  Speaker 1: express yourself, does that does your expression contain, you know,
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  Speaker 1: the words the thoughts of other people? Are you expressing yourself?
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  Speaker 1: I guess by relaying what other people said as opposed
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  Speaker 1: to your own beliefs.
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  Speaker 2: Now, the courts have long held that the first timer
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  Speaker 2: protects more than just kind of spoken written word. It
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  Speaker 2: also protects conduct that itself is inherently expressive or that
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  Speaker 2: can't be sufficiently divorced from the speech creation process, and
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  Speaker 2: this includes recording. Courts across the country have held that
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  Speaker 2: individuals have a right to both audio record and video
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  Speaker 2: record public officials in public during the scope of their
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  Speaker 2: performing the public scope of their public duties. We think
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  Speaker 2: that should also include situations where you're having a meeting
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  Speaker 2: with a school official and a public building, when that
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  Speaker 2: meeting is just between the parents and the school official
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  Speaker 2: is about that parent child and doesn't threaten the privacy
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  Speaker 2: rights of any other students at the school.
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  Speaker 1: I know a lot there's been a lot of contesting,
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  Speaker 1: especially with the police officers, police stops and so forth,
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  Speaker 1: and I think at least two of those are active
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  Speaker 1: on an appellate level right now, where officers are confiscated
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  Speaker 1: cell phones, refuse to allow recordings and and so forth.
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  Speaker 1: And the counter to that claim is what you're wearing
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  Speaker 1: a body cam. If you, as a servant of the people,
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  Speaker 1: can record me in this traffic stop, why can I
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  Speaker 1: not record you as the people, as the employer that
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  Speaker 1: this this. We're in the age of surveillance now, and
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  Speaker 1: it's the there's a lot of sorting out to do
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  Speaker 1: a great deal sorting out to do. Uh, this lawsuit
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  Speaker 1: that you have right now with the school system. This
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  Speaker 1: is what's what's the end result? What are we searching
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  Speaker 1: for in order to make Nicole happy and to make
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  Speaker 1: her whole and conclude the thing.
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  Speaker 2: So, the school as a policy that prohibits parents and
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  Speaker 2: all individuals from recording meetings with school officials without the
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  Speaker 2: permission of the building administrator. But you shouldn't need the
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  Speaker 2: permission of government official to exercise constitutional rights. So we're
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  Speaker 2: hoping for here is a change to that policy that
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  Speaker 2: says that parents are permitted to record meetings with school
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  Speaker 2: officials when those meetings are just between parents and the
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  Speaker 2: school officials and don't threaten the privacy rights of other
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  Speaker 2: non governmental employees.
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  Speaker 1: And what kind of time Lenny looking at? Is there
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  Speaker 1: a court date? Is this still in the preliminary stages?
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  Speaker 1: When might this be resolved in what would be the
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  Speaker 1: repercussive effects I guess on other states? Is this going
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  Speaker 1: to be strictly in Indiana or will this be a
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  Speaker 1: precedent setting for the rest of the country.
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  Speaker 2: So this case is in this very early stages. We
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: filed our complaint and where we're just waiting for the
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  Speaker 2: response from the school district. But the holding this case
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  Speaker 2: that for successful will not be limited to Indiana. We
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  Speaker 2: are arguing that the First Amendment necessarily protects the rights
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  Speaker 2: of parents to record meetings with school officials, and that
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  Speaker 2: would be applicable whether you're in Indiana or any state
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  Speaker 2: across the country.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Has has the school system at this point, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: have they at least divulged their reason for removing the
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  Speaker 1: initial ban on Nicole from going to her kids' school.
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  Speaker 1: Did they issue any sort of statement, apology, reconsideration, or
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  Speaker 1: did they just do it arbitrarily and not say why.
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  Speaker 2: So they explained after we sent them our demand letter.
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  Speaker 2: We send them a demand that are demanding that the
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  Speaker 2: trustpaths that will be removed, that their communications plan be removed,
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  Speaker 2: and that they changed the policy after that. They removed
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the no trust pass order. Now they've said that that
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  Speaker 2: is something that they typically do after a year they
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  Speaker 2: reconsider all no trust pass orders. But the fact of
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  Speaker 2: the matter is that the policy is still in effect
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  Speaker 2: and a letter made clear that if she records again
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  Speaker 2: in the future without permission of the building administrator, the
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  Speaker 2: school will reinstitute the no trust pass order and the
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  Speaker 2: communications plan that are placed.
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  Speaker 1: On the whole concept of trespass on public property has
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  Speaker 1: always intrigued me as a you know, unless you are
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  Speaker 1: a criminal, unless there is, you know, some adjudicated reason
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  Speaker 1: why you cannot be present in a publicly owned facility.
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  Speaker 1: I don't get how anybody empowered over, you know, running
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  Speaker 1: that facility can ban you from it. That has that
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  Speaker 1: ever come up as far as you know, at least,
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  Speaker 1: has there been a case questioning that, and has the
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  Speaker 1: court ruled in favor of the ridiculousness and given a
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  Speaker 1: valid reason as to why it's acceptable to ban people
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  Speaker 1: from a public building.
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  Speaker 2: You know? What I can speak to is the fact
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  Speaker 2: that you know, schools are obviously a sensitive place, but
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  Speaker 2: that parent should have a general rights to be where
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  Speaker 2: the children are present, as long as it's not going
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  Speaker 2: to be disruptive to the educational environment of the school district.
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  Speaker 2: And because of the inherent importance of printal rights, there
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  Speaker 2: must be heightened scrutiny when a school decides to ban
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  Speaker 2: a parent from the prop from the from the school,
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  Speaker 2: especially because that prevents the parent from being able to
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  Speaker 2: continually assess the educational environment that the child is in
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  Speaker 2: and have regular interactions with those two and the school
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  Speaker 2: officials who have regular interactions with their children.
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  Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to keep an eye on this
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  Speaker 1: because I said at the onset I am all in
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  Speaker 1: favor raging against the machine, especially when that rage may
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  Speaker 1: benefit the general public. And just far too often too
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  Speaker 1: many school board meetings that people cannot speak or are
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  Speaker 1: limited in their amount of time when others have not been.
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  Speaker 1: I just watched one yesterday where I can't recall her name,
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  Speaker 1: a young girl fourteen years of age who addressed the
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  Speaker 1: school board, and instead of confronting that fourteen year old girl,
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  Speaker 1: the entire board got up and walked out of the meeting.
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  Speaker 1: The power of the individual is a wonderful thing, and
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  Speaker 1: I love it when people choose to stand up against it.
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  Speaker 1: So I hope we can keep you on speed dial
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  Speaker 1: when this thing gets in front of a judge and
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  Speaker 1: we get a decision. I would love to get all
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  Speaker 1: the grizzly details about how the trial went and how
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  Speaker 1: it turns out.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely well, thank you for having me on today.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate you. That's Adam Shelton with the Goldwater Institute
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  Speaker 1: on six to ten w UTV. And it's a very
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  Speaker 1: interesting case. And it's it's again, it's one of these
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  Speaker 1: things where I'm tired. There there was a guy who
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  Speaker 1: used to go to the Columbus City schools meetings. What
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: was his name, something Israel maybe, and he used to
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  Speaker 1: do the weirdest thing. I mean, he he would do
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  Speaker 1: like this this chant thing, all right, and and it
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  Speaker 1: was it was weird. And for someone who comes in
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  Speaker 1: and offers nothing productive at the meeting, I can see honestly.
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  Speaker 1: You know, by ay, maybe you need a two thirds
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  Speaker 1: majority vote to the board or whatever to say, okay,
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  Speaker 1: you must you must be speaking to something having to
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: do with the business of the school system or the
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  Speaker 1: school board, or or an individual school for that matter.
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  Speaker 1: But to come in and just and go through this
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  Speaker 1: this chanting thing, it's just it's not productive and it's
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  Speaker 1: not an efficient use of the people's time. So I
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: could see that. But if somebody wants to come in
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  Speaker 1: and complain, grete, grouse, moan, grown whatever about something that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: is under your purview as a government official, and that's
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  Speaker 1: what you are when you're elected to that position, I
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  Speaker 1: don't see it being able to shut him down. I
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: don't see you being able to ban somebody from a
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  Speaker 1: public building unless you know the law has said this
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  Speaker 1: person's dangerous and cannot be here. You know you can't
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  Speaker 1: come in this school because you're a convicted child predator. Okay,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: that's fine, that's fine, but you're a troublemaker with a
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  Speaker 1: big mouth. No, there's no criminal element there. And uh,
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  Speaker 1: I absolutely understand this mother. I think she got the
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  Speaker 1: short end of the stick in a couple of different ways.
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  Speaker 1: But I don't buy necessarily the First Amendment argument. I
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: can say whatever I want as as an American, I
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: can open my mouth and express any point of view
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  Speaker 1: I would. But if I were to, if I were
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  Speaker 1: to hold up, you know, my cell phone now and
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: have a recording of something Zack and I were talking
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  Speaker 1: about that I disagreed with and basically put him on
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  Speaker 1: front street as we used to say, I don't think
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  Speaker 1: that's my First Amendment right to out him, even if
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  Speaker 1: it wasn't a public building. I don't know, I don't know.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna have to think about that when
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I guess