Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Mark Donaldson about his choice of Kinda (4/4)

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Talks to Mark Donaldson about his choice of Kinda (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a blump. Pen Knife For doing quicker,
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quicker, quicker. Welcome back to Hamster With a
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Blump Pen Knife, the Doctor Who Pod Commentary podcast.
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Other Doctor Who Commentary podcasts are available and
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recommended. And it's the end of everything.
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Or at least the end of our discussion of Kenta.
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I'm Mark Donaldson and I'm joined by your actual host.
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It's Joe. Hello.
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You are the actual host right now.
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No, honestly, you're like an old pro.
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That's right. How many drinks deep are you
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now? I think it's only your second,
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right? This is just yeah.
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So the third I. Thought you were gonna say this
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is apple juice? And how about, well, it's kind
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of it's Jack Daniels apple, because, you know, I thought
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apples. I did a bit of it on the time
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Lash. So apples.
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Snakes. Garden of Eden.
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Jack Daniels apple. A bit of ginger beer.
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Cheers. I've got lemonade.
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Lovely, lovely. Honestly, I can't have one.
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I have one drink and have anyone's.
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It's a problem. I was stay ever when I was a
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teenager about that. But we are here for the riveting
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climax of Kinder we are doing so far.
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What's the story so far? How's it doing?
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Oh, it's great. It's great.
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I mean, apart from that weird season, season three Episode 3
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Cliffhanger, which we discussed where it ends about two minutes
2:11
too late. I think it's great and I think
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it's building up very nicely. We've got the Dome is rigged to
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Blow. We've got the Kinder heading to
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the Dome for us. Final conversation to free their
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their captive fellow Kinder Kingdoms Kinder.
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It's tense. It's tense, and the end of
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everything is coming, but the end is the beginning, so it's
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probably all going to be OK. Would it surprise you at all to
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learn that I've got a question for you before we go into
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Episode 4? It wouldn't.
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It's a bit of a cliche now. Will the question surprise me?
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Maybe I'll be interested. Well, because I think there are
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production deficiencies in, I think there are performance
3:05
deficiencies in kids and I still think it's a really fantastic
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Doctor Who story and I think that's what you think as well.
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Can so are you at a point now where you can ride over all of
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the bumps and just take the good from a story or is it going to
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be something amazing for you to do that that that's.
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I feel like that's a podcast into itself but I think I'd like
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to think I was. But at the same time, I think
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there is some doctor stories that you know, I can't think of
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any of the heads, but there are there are somewhere.
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It's just like I think there always has to be something
3:54
right? There has to be a good script or
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like a a strong idea that helps you navigate the bugs.
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I think it was a really dull story with flat performances and
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not much for like the main cast to do.
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It's not all that good, or if it's but then it's not too ever
4:16
that though. There's always something.
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There is always something to enjoy.
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I think boring story is probably a tie between Underworld and
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Terminus is pretty bad actually. Yeah, I find that quite
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struggle. Yeah, the chair throwing is, I
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think, the highlight, but only because of the Harry Hill sketch
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that came like decades later. Like we did, there are mad
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production deficiencies in Terminus as well.
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And yet I won't give that the free path.
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I'll give this no just because I think it's.
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Yeah, but then this again though I think the story is not bad.
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But I think you're right. I think the bad always the good.
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I think with a lot with all of that like Guardian trilogy.
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I think enlightenment gets away with it.
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It's just really hampered by all the cutaways to Valentine Dial
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telling Turtle to kill the doctor so that it's already kind
5:28
of on the back foot, and then you've got just not a great
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cast. I do quite like the Garmin.
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Sort of slightly an ironic way, but.
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Else you're talking about Lisa God all day, you know, with a
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massive fishbowl. And and do you think this is,
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well, this just is so unique. It stands out like a sore thumb
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in this season, doesn't it? It does.
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It does, and I think it's it. It stands out like a source on
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because it's do I think Davidson puts it best when he says, you
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know, this was a script that didn't appear to be written by
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your usual BBC hack, which is what he says in the commentary.
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Scandalous. He's talking about Terrence
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Dudley, isn't he? I think he might be, and he's
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kind of right. I think it does stand out as
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somebody who has gone all right. I want to write a story about
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these themes. What's the best way to do that?
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Doctor Who that's a that's a kind of mainstream scifi show
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which will allow me to kind of talk about kind of Buddhist
6:46
theology and sort of like the interior life and but it's kind
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of not that show and yet somehow it's the perfect show for that
6:57
story. I'm.
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Like when's the last time he's watched Doctor Who?
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Spiders, probably. Oh, madness.
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Although interestingly on the documentary he does say
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obviously he's very critical of the production of this story
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isn't realized in the way that he would have hoped.
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Like I think he's hardest on the is it the TSS machine?
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It's like and and the jungle, the kind of all of it basically.
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And he says that he it was an education for him because then
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when he wrote Snake Dance. He was like, right, what do they
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do? Well, the performances were
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good. They were, the sets were OK, you
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know, like, so I'll lean into all of the strengths of what
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they can do. And so that's probably why Snake
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Dance is a far more polished production.
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I think so, but I think also if only there was, I don't know, a
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script editor to tell them that maybe some of these things
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weren't achievable. I don't know, just a thought.
8:09
That is outrageous. And say with himself on the time
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flight country when they're going well, this don't make any
8:17
sense and he's going, no, it doesn't, does it?
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You're the fucking script editor.
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Why do you make it make sense? Like I was thinking last night
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watching the documentary. It's like we've all worked with
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an Eric Sayward, Like you don't have to be like a BBC
8:36
scriptwriter or a TV producer to know when Eric say what somebody
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who is just not that good at their job but that will
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constantly blame others for their own shortcomings.
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That's the we all know. We all know somebody like that.
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It's all the fault of the producer John Nathan Turner,
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yeah. That's his lying, basically.
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And that's it. The only time I've ever heard.
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John Nathan Turner in any kind of an interview fro shade back.
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Eric Saywood was when he did his memoirs for Doctor Who Magazine
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and trial of the Time Lords was in the works and he said you had
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18 months. I did my job.
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I got the actors in I. Got the sets, Bill.
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You know, I planned the special effects, the budgeting, all of
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this. All you had to do in 18 months
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is get 4 scripts ready and you couldn't do that.
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I know it's just boggles the minds.
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Like every time. Like Richard Bignell did that
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great thing on Twitter the other day where he was talking about
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how Eric Sayward said that they never described the Ergon and
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the script for Rock of Infinity. And then he goes, they did
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though, because I'm just looking at the script right now, just
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like you just weren't very good at your job.
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Sorry just. The cast part where we're
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basically on the cusp of him taking on this role.
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So we had something like Castro Valva, which was very thoughtful
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piece as well, you know, for very sedate.
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Let's forget about forced to stay, and then kinder comes.
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And after this sort of say with Zen isn't it?
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And it's all Earth shock. The visitation Arkham Infinity
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time fly. I could yeah.
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I mean I just don't think Eric say words was ever all that
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interested in Doctor Who. I think he wanted to do a sort
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of scifi brother show and I think maybe if he hadn't thrown
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his toys at the pram and did that interview with DWB or
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whoever it was, it was DWB, wasn't it?
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Maybe he would have got to do that, but, you know, he kind of
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shot himself in the foot. Interesting man.
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Yeah, fascinating man. Who is richer for having him
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there? Yes.
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And I do have a thought of me punching him in the face.
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So I mean, you know. Excuse me, it's all on the
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timeline. But the short answer is, so
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there's a running joke on the timeline where I'm not a fan of
11:23
Eric Sayworth and I was at a convention.
11:27
I was at the DWAS convention last year and he was one of the
11:31
guests. I was like, I've got to get a
11:32
full take with Eric Sayworth. So I asked him if it would be
11:36
okay if because he, you know, he loves a bit of loves a bit of
11:40
casual violence in his daughter, Would it be alright if I just
11:44
waved a sort of a fist in his face?
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He's like, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, so got full of me just
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going to suck. Eric, say words.
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Well, will you do me a favor then?
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When this goes out, will you just put this in the Twitter
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thread below? Let me just have a picture.
11:58
Yeah, sure. The best click bait we can have?
12:04
Say words. Well, look, look, we've talked
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for nearly 15 minutes now. We better.
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Would you care to count us in or shall I?
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I can count us in if you'd like. Yeah, so in 54321.
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Self congratulatory, that is. The other joy of doing this with
12:30
other Doctor Who podcasters is it is effortless to talk about
12:33
Doctor Who with people that are used to talking about Doctor Who
12:37
because they get every bloody reference you know you must be
12:42
Wang on for ages. Then you got a really long
12:44
episode and I apologize, God. You must have had that with
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Luke, Malloy, with Dylan Race, with all of them.
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Oh God, yeah, with everybody. It's it.
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It's great. Like there is nothing like
12:56
Doctor Who for just bringing people together and kind of like
13:02
a weird, you kind of just feel like friend.
13:05
You've been friends for ages. Just, you know, just because
13:07
you've got this kind of scared. Angry this year old TV show?
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Right back into the, back into it.
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Dream. Escape.
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Davidson looks pain there, doesn't he?
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He does and all these clocks, because obviously this is kind
13:25
of the doctor's vision. So I do wonder in a kind of
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script, direct script, scene directions and production
13:34
design, if it was, if the clock thing was like a response to
13:37
that or if it was literally just like, no, it's it's to emphasize
13:41
just the end of everything. So we need to have it.
13:43
We need to have this kind of doomsday clock motif, or if it's
13:48
also like a little bit of a Time Lord node as well.
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Like a lot of this story, I think it's open to
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interpretation. That's always a good guy, isn't
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it? It's open to interpretation.
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I mean, I think I know which one I prefer.
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I prefer for it to be the fact that he's the Time Lord.
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I think that's a really. So this is where Episode 4
14:09
should have started. Yeah.
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Well, yeah, because then then it's it's not the big moment of
14:15
the episode. So I think it would hit more as
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well. Yeah, exactly.
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If it's like you've had that it's the end of everything, you
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come back. Well, it wouldn't be next week.
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It would be like the next day because they were doing 22 a
14:25
week at this stage. And you you find out pandas
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that's like a great kick to the to the start of the first
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episode. This is, this is brilliant.
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This bit though where it's like oh you know sometimes, you know
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if you're in a if you're in a coma or like a you know a deep
14:42
France state you know the the senses can be imperceptible to.
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And there she's like, she's dead, isn't she's like, yeah,
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she's. More fantastic.
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They've been brilliant together, yeah.
15:00
Is that the first time we've seen the Dome from the outside?
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I think it is. I think it is, yeah.
15:08
These are massive studios. The fact that they've managed to
15:10
build the inside looking out and the outside looking in, it is
15:14
quite incredible. Yeah, there is, there's, there's
15:20
Deborah against right, right at the the head of the queue.
15:24
Look, they can put as many leaves as they want on that
15:27
floor. They are never going to disguise
15:28
the fact it's a BBC studio. I know.
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So now this is where it's an issue.
15:34
Look at that backdrop now with those flat heels.
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I just don't care. I love that there.
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It's like, that's definitely just like Davidson slipping on
15:43
the Astroturf. It's not a kind of Annex Dr. Run
15:48
thing, it's. Another line I keep saying at
15:52
the moment is is a typically Doctor Who excuse for bad
15:56
production values. If it tells the story, I'm OK,
16:00
yeah, I think that's fine, though.
16:02
I think it's always the thing we talk to is that if the
16:06
performances are like genuine and if the story is compelling
16:13
enough, you do kind of just smooth over any kind of dodgy
16:18
props or you know, ropey set dressing or things like that
16:25
because you're kind of you're drawn into it enough that it
16:27
doesn't really matter. I always used to think the ideas
16:31
were my in. The Doctor Who.
16:33
I actually think it's the characters more than the ideas
16:37
now. Certainly in the news.
16:40
Yeah, yeah definitely news have really kind of gone to tone on
16:43
giving you kind of characters that you can kind of relate to.
16:48
This is great as rather the the cardboard cutouts.
16:55
There's that line in a minute where he goes crazy and says you
16:58
can't mend people, can you that? That is a deep, dark line.
17:05
It is. Well, he's holding the kind of
17:08
cardboard head in one hand in the oh God, it's.
17:11
Amazing. A nervous breakdown, you know?
17:13
Yeah, but Richard Todd is just having a lovely time, like.
17:19
Yes, I really had to. He's on Blue Peter, you know.
17:24
Look, he's talking to the figure, the little cut, the cut
17:27
out. Yeah, it's so good.
17:31
I love that. But they're both just talking to
17:35
the little cardboard man. That's great.
17:37
We've lost Tegan for an episode, haven't we?
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I completely we have. She's just having an app and
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here she is now to be woken up. You are honest.
17:46
I mean you said earlier that I'd never considered watching just
17:48
because there is so many interesting things going on.
17:51
Is in your typical story you would find a way to link Hindu
17:57
on the Dome and the Mara. In some way, wouldn't you?
18:02
Because that's unusual for dogs who to have two completely
18:04
disparate plots playing. I mean, I suppose the connection
18:08
is that the Mara sort of giving Iris the impetus to attack the
18:15
dope, is it feeding on all the sort of bad energy on the on the
18:21
planet. So they do kind of coalesce.
18:24
But I think what's so great about it is that the kind of key
18:28
to solving it is to solve it. You solve Hindel's mental health
18:32
crisis first, so you remove that bad energy, and then all that's
18:35
left to do is to just build your little circle of mirrors.
18:39
Monster, Yeah, And just, yeah, Defeat the monster is great.
18:44
I'd almost say, though the defeating Hindel's enough.
18:48
Maybe we could have done without the Pink snake.
18:51
Well, maybe, yes. Especially since the Mara is.
18:55
Tapped away in Tegan's head and he's coming back next year, you
18:58
know. So just that suggestion that
19:00
it's still there. But do you know what that is
19:03
though That to me is Christopher Bailey going, well Doctor Who
19:07
needs a monster. So why don't we have a big
19:09
monster at the end of it and nobody turning around to him and
19:12
saying, yeah, we're not really going to be able to pull that
19:17
off. If Terence, if that script was
19:18
like how did the Terence sticks, he would be like we can't have a
19:22
pink snake. We couldn't even do the bloody
19:26
mine at all, you know? Yeah, I said to Bowie.
19:29
I said. We can't do a purple snake.
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I'll cover it with a line. It's so easy to do any Terence
19:41
Queen. The colorful monster is always
19:42
queen, except in this thing I love.
19:47
I love Tegan trying to explain her dream to the doctor.
19:49
The doctor just say, hey, just get to the point.
19:53
It's like it's just pitch perfect.
19:55
Like anybody ever trying to tell you, oh, I had this dream last
19:58
night. Did you?
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I didn't care less. I'll tell you.
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All right, Mark. The two dullest conversations
20:03
you can possibly have with people is dreams and their kids.
20:08
Oh yes, and it's about the kids. That's the worst one.
20:11
Yeah. Or my kid had a dream.
20:15
Oh God. Oh, did they I in trouble now or
20:22
the other life sometimes the TV. We are in trouble now because
20:24
Adricks got older. The the weird.
20:29
So there's Graham. Cool.
20:31
There's another Bill actor as well.
20:34
It's fun of them. Only stamped from the bills of
20:36
this as well. I forgot about that.
20:38
You remember everybody saw it. You remember Avatar, when they
20:41
were fabulous, scary sort of robotic things and going about
20:47
beating the shit out of each other.
20:48
I've got a feeling that's what the TSS is supposed.
20:51
I think that's exactly what it's supposed to be.
20:53
It's supposed to be this kind of all terrain like exo suit thing
20:58
that is actually just a steam roast steam power.
21:03
It's probably because you can see what they they tip it over
21:08
there, sort of slight, sort of like casters on it.
21:12
Oh, bless him. Falling over at that, that
21:15
Twiggy box, you know. Oh, here we go, the flame.
21:25
John, can we go again? We have just put it in.
21:31
He keeps looking down at it and the funniest thing about it is
21:35
that there was absolutely no like you can from the minute it
21:40
sparks up, the flames just slowly dwindling like it's not.
21:44
I would totally get his fear if it was like.
21:47
Starting to rise up the branch? It's just just fizzling out.
21:52
One of my joys of watching television so critically is
21:56
those moments when the production is visible with it.
22:02
I was watching the Star Trek the other day and Gains McFadden was
22:06
pregnant, right? So they're trying to keep her
22:08
out of shock scene where she's in the back of the shot and
22:11
she's her stomach's almost in the shot and Patrick Stewart is
22:15
looking off off camera and they're clearly going.
22:18
Brilliant. So he just suddenly steps in
22:21
front of her like this. I love all that stuff, actually.
22:26
Given Doctor Who was made in a hurry, you don't get a lot of
22:28
that in it, really, do you? You don't know it.
22:31
It is pretty good for that. But I guess it's you.
22:34
Probably because you've got people like Peter Grim with
22:36
yelling at that folk. To behave themselves and be, you
22:41
know, very professional and yeah, oh hindle inside the box
22:46
here. Hindle and said the box is great
22:48
as a jack-in-the-box. Well, one of my ex partners.
22:52
And Jack Meadows in the box for the Bill.
22:54
Fans listening. When we moved into the house, he
22:59
wanted to get inside cardboard box and hide in there all the
23:02
time. And I kept thinking to myself,
23:03
fuck me, I'm living with Hindle. I'm in trouble.
23:07
Sorry when you say he he just wanted to hide in the box all
23:10
the time of this fella inside a cardboard box, just like Hindle.
23:14
Just like that. What to To frighten you?
23:17
Or did you know that he was just constantly just sitting in the
23:19
box? Kind of.
23:21
I got no idea if I'm honest, but I was scared.
23:25
The relationship only lasted six months.
23:27
Well, yeah, because he kept jumping out-of-the-box, is it?
23:29
Yeah, a balance, actually, about this.
23:33
Seems interesting between Tegan and Atrick.
23:37
We're like, they're both just giving each other shit for.
23:41
But you know why? Because they don't like each
23:45
other, but this this so the episode was under running.
23:49
Right. Yeah.
23:50
Was asked to write an additional scene, and it's the scene where
23:54
they're bitching at each other because it just, it absolutely
23:57
plays out like typical Eric's award.
24:00
Yeah. That's true.
24:03
Yeah. Know that you say that you're
24:05
like, Oh yeah, of course. That's who wrote it.
24:08
This is great. I love This is the bomb.
24:12
And you know that is where. This is great, yeah, when he's a
24:15
doctor, when he says to Neri sues and it's a really quiet
24:22
moment, he goes, you frightened of me?
24:23
And she just goes terrified. Yeah.
24:27
See this bit where Simon. Nice.
24:31
Sort of 100 percent, 1000 percent, 1,000,000 trillion
24:34
billion percent. David Tennant has definitely
24:39
absorbed that into his doctor. Like watching this as a kids.
24:46
Like it's so tense. Dr. It's funny that he takes
24:51
that. He takes Hindal as an
24:54
inspiration. Well, learn from the best you
24:58
know. Well, if people say that best
25:01
performance is Doctor Who, why wouldn't he?
25:04
Yeah, true. That's unusual for Davison to be
25:09
violent. Yeah, he's proper going for,
25:11
isn't he? And that's one of those
25:14
unfortunate moments where it looks very cheap when they just
25:18
all fall in those cardboard boxes and you're.
25:20
Like, yeah, then he pulls the table down.
25:22
Although it's it's also kind of, I don't know, like it does look
25:25
a bit cheap. But there is something kind of
25:28
raw about it. The way Davidson kind of pulls
25:30
their table down and the the maps are flying everywhere.
25:35
This, this is brilliant, we've told on the box.
25:39
Yeah, she's so good. She knows, like, I think there's
25:46
something great about kind of. She's the only female as far as
25:50
we're aware. Obviously there's there's two is
25:52
two others, isn't it? Going out into the jungle
25:53
beforehand and never come back. Well, as far as we're aware,
25:57
she's the only female member of the team.
26:01
And you can totally see that she knows how to just like work with
26:07
two very sort of masculine men who you know, are very sort of
26:15
like believe their own hype sort of thing.
26:17
Well, I think what you said earlier about him sort of
26:19
regressing into a child, he says, oh, I could block the
26:24
world after, can't I? And she just goes.
26:26
Yeah, yeah. Of course you can, like I've.
26:28
Yeah, that's it, you know. Yeah, exactly like she she sees
26:33
them both as just children. Yeah, this scene is so jarring
26:39
between this and suddenly Andrew is the petulant kid again, isn't
26:45
he? Yeah, it's weird, isn't it?
26:46
It's just so like, oh, well, you know, if I fell asleep
26:51
underneath the windshines that you wouldn't have the Mara
26:54
coming out of me. Beg your pardon?
27:00
Did you hear about JNT and the Tegan haircut?
27:04
So this, this season 19, this little booth on haircut, he
27:09
wanted it to be imitatable by the kids watching.
27:13
And he was like calling it the Tegan, just like they called it
27:16
the Rachel in Friends. Can you imagine that catching
27:19
on? He was ahead of his time.
27:22
He was ahead of his time. It was a shit hairdo though,
27:25
wouldn't it? That's true, Meris Hughes says
27:30
on the commentary. Peter, why are you wearing a
27:33
piece of parsley? Yeah, he goes, for heaven sakes,
27:40
Nuri, it's celery. Oh dear.
27:49
And then That's right, he goes. Yeah.
27:50
I told him I'd only wear it if they explained it eventually,
27:53
and Janet filled in straight in there.
27:55
What I never did, did they? It was after you left, he goes.
28:00
And even then, it's a very weak explanation.
28:04
Have you ever been affected by gases in the practice range
28:07
mark? No, I haven't.
28:09
I've got to say, but if I if I'm ever to go into the practice
28:15
range, so be sure to bring some celery, we stuck it in my shop.
28:20
Don't worry. So this whole thing about evil
28:25
not being able to look at itself, this is this.
28:29
In a lot of books. It's dance back to the Bible,
28:32
right? Yes, So because, I mean,
28:34
obviously, I suppose you look at, you look at mythology,
28:38
you've got Medusa, can't look at herself, can't she Also snakes,
28:45
I mean, you know. This is, this is all I'm
28:48
getting, but but that's a I feel like there must, there must be
28:51
more. It must be a kind of
28:54
acknowledged thing Within there is this peering at the bushes.
29:00
Oh, diva. Old Diva OK, I've got a I got a
29:05
biggie for you. I'm trying all the big questions
29:06
at you today, but we're about to see a terribly unconvincing sort
29:13
of ache. But there is the option on the
29:16
DVD should you wish to watch an updated CGI version.
29:21
Your thoughts? So I think it's fine if if you
29:27
want it. I I've never been that bothered.
29:32
I'm always intrigued to see kind of what they do and I think the
29:35
the terror of the autumns that they did was quite interesting
29:38
where they kind of like brought down the the CSO in the police
29:42
car and things like that. But then also it's like
29:47
colorizing black and white episodes.
29:50
Why I don't I don't really get it and I think I see television
29:57
archive television is kind of part of a kind of cultural
30:01
history and it it's the kind of story of our progression as a
30:07
society and as a as a society that makes media and
30:12
entertainment and. I think this kind of obsession
30:16
the Doctor Who fans have with kind of touching things up and
30:19
making things like Luke Bear is part of this kind of inferiority
30:25
complex that I think a lot of fans have.
30:29
Because we spent years being told that it was all wobbly sets
30:32
and, you know, ropy acting and dodgy monsters and men.
30:36
You could see the zips when you could never really see the zips.
30:41
Yeah, I think, I think it's an extension of that and it's great
30:44
if you want that and I think it's love.
30:46
I think what's great about the range is that it does cater to
30:50
all different tastes. Ultimately, it's not for me you
30:53
got the option to watch. Yeah, exactly.
30:56
Good. And the weird thing is, though,
30:59
it is a bit jarring because you go from 1970s television to 2015
31:06
CGR. Yeah, just a weird mix.
31:10
It is strange. I mean, what I like about, I've
31:12
said this for about the animated, the animated
31:14
reconstructions is that, yeah, they're not great.
31:18
But actually in terms of reconstructing 1960s TV as a
31:24
cartoon, actually, I think it works really well.
31:27
It's, you know, it's kind of doing Doctor Who as if it was a
31:31
cartoon in the 1960s. And that's kind of what you
31:33
want, I think. And I absolutely get why they do
31:36
that in color, just because it's more marketable to an order.
31:39
Of course, yeah. Oh, here we go.
31:42
See, I don't mind it so much when it's like the little prop
31:45
snake on the arm. Well, because he's doing it in
31:47
mirrors and quick cuts. Yeah, And it's when it does this
31:51
kind of growing bit and it's clearly just what's Matt Irvin
31:56
just holding a a sort of snake prop up to the camera and he's
32:01
trying to do cuts to the eyes and the teeth and he's trying.
32:06
Yeah, but there's just no way you can make that static prop
32:12
look like I'm. I mean, again, like you say,
32:15
there's some great grim way touches here, like the kind of
32:18
the high shot of Neris Hughes kind of looking up at it and but
32:22
yeah, it is. I mean, I think I'm not about to
32:26
compare this to Jaws, but I am kind of about to compare this to
32:29
Jaws. It's the same thing where like
32:32
you realized the thoughts not great and you've got to work out
32:36
how to shoot it. I think Grimwade maybe could
32:40
have pulled back a bit more and maybe not shown it in so full,
32:47
like a full body shot of the purple snake, yeah.
32:51
I mean, do you know what? It's not that bad.
32:53
And the lights down have it. Yeah, I mean.
32:59
That's quite of hindsight. You know what, 40 years later?
33:05
Yeah, when TV is as sophisticated as it is now.
33:11
Yeah, I mean of course it's going to look good and like
33:16
again it's on screen for walk few minutes and I don't see
33:20
where it says that whole thing of like, oh that's the thing the
33:22
audience is going to take away. And it's like, well, sure, if
33:27
they're idiots. Well, I think the Doctor Who
33:29
audience in 1980, whenever this came out where it is because
33:33
they put this at the bottom of the DWM pole and I'm perfectly
33:36
convinced this has got something to do with it.
33:39
Must do it. Must do.
33:41
Because yeah, because at the end of the story, what have you got
33:43
to remember it by? A dodgy pink snake, yeah.
33:47
And it's only actually when. And that's what I love about
33:50
these kind of doctory polls. Although, I mean, there's never
33:52
really massive changes in the movement, but.
33:56
The way things kind of change because people get access to
33:59
them on kind of home video or DVD or Blu-ray as it is now, you
34:05
get those reappraisals was probably made in about half an
34:09
hour with the clock ticking to 10:00 suggestion that it will be
34:15
scrutinized by people for the next 40 years.
34:19
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
34:20
Because that's it. Like it was.
34:22
Television was still disposable at this point.
34:25
You know video like. VHS recorders weren't.
34:29
They were. They were becoming more
34:31
mainstream, but they weren't nearly as ubiquitous as they.
34:34
They kind of became a few years later.
34:36
I love this ending as well, like Sanders kind of going on, don't
34:41
you know? We won't put it in the official
34:43
report. It's great.
34:45
And you know, there's almost like a father son between those.
34:49
Absolutely that there. Yeah.
34:53
No, Neris, get into the TARDIS. Get in the TARDIS.
34:57
Oh, Ness is back. Also, right, there's definitely
35:05
a slightly, you know, will they won't they vibe going on these
35:11
two? Yes.
35:12
Yeah, I mean, look, Zip's halfway down her teeth.
35:16
Wow. Exactly.
35:19
In that handshake and that little you know.
35:23
Forget your David Tennants and Billy Piper's.
35:25
That's, you know, Peter Davidson and their excuse.
35:27
That's where it starts. See what they were getting
35:30
wrong. Is this, like, you know, we
35:32
talked about all those things between him and Todd and the
35:36
sort of warmth that was there between them and the
35:39
camaraderie. The 2nd Teegan was back.
35:42
He was being patronizing, and that's the kind of that's the
35:47
route they were going down with the companions.
35:50
That sort of is more interesting to be at each other's throats.
35:54
Yeah, but then, and it is up to a point, but it should never be
35:57
the kind of main thing. Although what I do like about
36:00
that ending is when he does kind of come back to the TARDIS and
36:04
he kind of punches Tegan on the shoulder a little bit too hard
36:07
and that could look really harsh.
36:08
But actually it's like, wake up. Well, I'm not having this again.
36:13
Like, I can't be having you. Not enough.
36:16
It's better than his reactions were at the end of Arc of
36:17
Infinity. Do you remember when she stuck
36:19
with me now? And he goes, oh fuck, like they
36:22
don't even avoid it. Well.
36:26
We forgot to mention it, but in this where they're talking about
36:30
the dreaming and you should never dream alone.
36:32
And it's forbidden. I said ah, Tegan.
36:36
Of course it would be bloody Tegan.
36:40
All right. Maybe be concerned for your
36:42
friend that, I don't know, Did you, do you think there's ever a
36:48
more apparent sort of contractual issue as Nissa
36:54
vanishing in episode one and turning up in episode 4?
36:57
I mean, it's so obvious. I know, right?
37:02
Yeah, so we just need to get rid of her for a few weeks.
37:05
Yeah. It's not that kind of thing of
37:07
like she's in the TARDIS building, whatever the hell
37:09
she's building in the visitation vibrating.
37:12
Yeah, but like back in the 60s, they they were like, Oh yeah,
37:16
Hart was in a cell or he's been knocked out a week into space or
37:22
something like that. It was like, oh, what?
37:24
She needs her nab. Oh well, I'm awake now.
37:26
Let's go into the X. Well look, that was 4 episodes
37:33
of Fabulous Conversation Find. If I take to Twitter now, I
37:38
refuse to call it X and throw a few questions your way.
37:44
Okay, because bugger it, I've lost the thread.
37:48
Hang on, I'm going to do some more in because we did have a
37:55
number of responses from people. Here we go.
38:13
That's Elon Musk. So this is professionalism for
38:17
you. I know, it's a joke now, isn't
38:22
it? It's just awful.
38:25
I can see why you needed a rest. Was it that or was it just?
38:29
That was the final straws. Like, do you know what saw this
38:32
like? And I put a check back in every
38:34
now and again, but like, I'm like, it's not, it's Reds is
38:38
rubbish as well. It's all rubbish.
38:39
I'm just like, maybe I just need to just come off the whole
38:41
thing. Reds is rubbish.
38:43
Yeah, I went out for a day. I was like, it's the same old
38:47
shit. It's the same old posting.
38:49
Yeah, exactly. Okay.
38:54
So a name that you will recognize.
38:57
Mr. Dillon, Doctor Who Too hot for TV?
39:00
I am aware of him. Should the Doctor have ejected
39:05
Nissa and Adrik out of an airlock and taken Naresh Hughes
39:08
with him? Yes, next question.
39:11
You literally just said that you and Dylan are one, Dan
39:21
Hollingsworth says. I love Kinder.
39:24
Considering it had three script editors involved.
39:26
It turned out great. So weird that it came last in
39:28
the DWN 1982 season survey and was beaten by Ruddy time fly.
39:34
I hope you smear lipstick over your teeth for the podcast
39:36
recording. Oh, there was no question.
39:37
It was just just a comment. Oh, OK, that's nice.
39:41
We didn't. We didn't.
39:42
We've got we didn't get the memo.
39:45
Sorry Nippy, don't really suit me.
39:47
Anyway, Dave? Rennie asks.
39:50
Who put the wind chimes there? Well, it's part of the, I think
39:57
it's part of the diva loca in the tradition, isn't it?
40:01
They dream together so and it's just you're just forbidden from
40:05
going there by yourself. So if you dream of, you risk the
40:10
Marlboro invading, your mind is that.
40:13
But they all kind of collectively dream under the
40:15
chains. That sounds marvelous, doesn't
40:17
it? I would want a bit.
40:18
Of that I'm assuming you know the police box.
40:24
The Polish box, I am aware, I'm aware because they say.
40:27
And of course, it was a giant Python intruding on people just
40:32
trying to go about their everyday lives that got John
40:34
Barrowman in trouble in the first place.
40:37
Hey, Simon Hall asks Kinder or snake dogs?
40:44
Which is better? We did touch on this earlier.
40:47
We did, I think. I think it's kinder, although I
40:52
do think snake dance is great, but it is a different story.
40:56
It's kind of more about, I guess it's kind of about academia,
40:59
where was like kinder's about kind of colonial oppression and.
41:06
And start the military. But for me it is kinder.
41:08
It's there's just something so strange and so ambitious about
41:14
it. It's like you say, like Snake
41:16
Dance is great, but it's writing to the limitations of Doctor
41:21
Who, which doesn't necessarily make it better.
41:24
It makes it look better and it makes it, but it's less
41:26
ambitious. I was thinking Snake Dance.
41:29
Is some of these ideas beaten into a four part Doctor Who
41:33
story? Not really a Doctor Who story.
41:36
It's something completely offbeat.
41:39
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and that's why it's great, Fraser
41:43
Gregory asked. Based on the strength of this
41:46
story, should Kate Bush have written more Doctor Who?
41:53
No, we would have been robbed of so many.
41:55
We would have been robbed of the album that apparently features
41:59
dialogue from Kinder in it, which I couldn't discern.
42:03
Did you go looking? I did.
42:05
I went. I had a little listen to Hands
42:07
of Love this morning, and she does sample.
42:12
There's a few tracks where she samples dialogue and things of
42:14
that, but I couldn't pick out any kinder.
42:17
There's a bit or something where Hands of Love, which I never
42:19
realized, does start with somebody going they're in the
42:22
trees, but it's not Simon Rice. Is that where the link came from
42:28
between Kate Bush and this? Apparent.
42:31
So it was because. Chris for Bailey wouldn't do
42:33
interviews, but yeah, apparently the reason Kate Bush was one of
42:37
the rumored writers was because apparently the Hands of Love
42:41
album features a sample of dialogue from Kinder.
42:45
I would love some Kate Bush music playing over some of these
42:48
scenes. I I've got to say, the Army
42:51
without. When I remembered that rumor, I
42:53
was like, was it just a Doctor Who fancied making a joke that,
42:57
you know, Doctor Who fans don't always take jokes?
43:01
In the spirit that they were intended to this day, to this
43:07
day, my friend James H asks at what stage of the production
43:12
should they have gone? What a giant moving snake might
43:16
not be too great on our budget and technology.
43:19
How do we redo the ending to avoid it?
43:21
And what could they have done to avoid showing the snake so much
43:24
on the screen? We kind of covered that, didn't
43:26
we? We did.
43:27
I mean, there was three script editors.
43:29
I mean, come on, someone should have said turn the lights down
43:35
at. The very least, it's what I
43:39
should have done with the mercury as well.
43:44
Melt. And Rob says apples aren't for
43:46
eating, apparently. Okay.
43:50
What are they for? Lobbing Natives head, he doesn't
43:56
go into any more detail. Stephen Flanagan asked why the
43:59
Mara images in Tegan's head wearing Elizabethan clothes.
44:05
Because much like any Doctor Who fan that makes their own fan
44:11
film, Tegan's imagination is very much rooted and just
44:16
putting everybody in Edwardian clothes, I'll take it.
44:21
It's just what they happen to have on June Hudson's rack.
44:24
Exactly. It's just like, I'll make it
44:26
look weird. It's getting some.
44:27
Oh, it was always a beaten. Yeah, you know, it has to say
44:30
June Hudson's rack. I'm so sorry.
44:33
Also also hang on, when do we colonize Australia?
44:37
The Elizabethan times. Maybe that's why.
44:40
Maybe that's why there's layers that we're not seeing.
44:43
There's layers. There's always layers.
44:45
John and Salia, what are your thoughts on Adrian Mills
44:48
critiquing? Oh, we've done this.
44:50
Matthew Ward House is acting on the DVD documentary.
44:53
Given that his performance as Iris is unvariable, shall we
44:57
say? Well, he's got a bloody brass
45:00
neck. That's what I'd say.
45:04
Matthew Ward House might be a little better, potentially.
45:07
I think he, I think he might be, you know, I don't think he could
45:10
have played Iris either. But, you know, stick that and
45:13
you have pipe and smoke it. Mills okay another one from
45:19
Fraser Snog marry trap for all eternity in a circle of mirrors.
45:23
Okay, there is Shoes, Donna I Naris and Kieran Nuris.
45:29
I'll see what he's done there. Okay, yeah, Kieran Nuris from
45:32
DS9. So probably Snog Kieran Nuris.
45:37
Yeah, she got lovely snacks. Yeah, she's, you know, marry
45:41
Naris, cuz that'd be lovely. And obviously, trap donors be
45:45
nervous. You know all the mirrors.
45:49
Awful women. Awful.
45:50
Just awful. But if she's not back in no
45:52
specials, I'll be just. Oh, come on.
45:55
Sure. That.
45:55
And this is an actress as well. I don't want any recaps.
45:59
You know a bit where donors goes, friends and nervous.
46:04
I think we've all got that friend, haven't we?
46:08
She's the person you podcast with.
46:14
Oh wow, Fraser again. Can you actually mend people?
46:21
Well, no, that isn't, I think, yeah, in a way.
46:28
I mean, surgery, you can you can fix a wound, but can you truly
46:33
mend the psychological impact of what caused that wound?
46:39
I don't know. And I'm scared to find out.
46:46
I'll go with that. Three drinks in.
46:47
That was a good answer. Just a couple more.
46:51
Rod, who asks how bold was it to transmit this in an early
46:56
evening midweek slot when the audience was used to the more
46:59
cozy magazine show nationwide? US imports like The Rockford
47:03
Files or Family Fair such as Young Musician of the Year.
47:07
What's this the best place in the schedule for challenging
47:09
drama? Probably not.
47:13
But then at the same time, I don't know where else you would
47:17
put Doctor Who at that point because it was still a family
47:22
show and I think actually if anything, put it on putting it
47:28
on during the week and giving it a kind of more adult, sort of
47:33
quite weighty thematic show. Is actually quite smart in that
47:38
kind of weekday slot where perhaps more people are watching
47:40
because they're not going out, you know.
47:43
So very bold is I would say, is the short answer to that.
47:48
Well, I think, I think maybe a portion of the audience would
47:51
watch this and go, What the fuck was that all about?
47:54
Oh yeah, absolutely. But the intellectuals amongst
47:57
us, yourself and you, whoever young you were, I was like, oh,
48:03
it's a bit more high brow than I'm used to in my Doctor Who.
48:06
We just had that fucking massive frog last week, but a fucking
48:11
massive pink snake. You know, we're going up in the
48:15
world very Pete Lambert. Oh, you've had your Orphan 55
48:19
episode with Pete? Oh yeah, that was good.
48:20
That was a good one as well. Joyous to listen to you too.
48:25
Hated that, Didn't. You.
48:28
I don't mind. I don't hate it as much as Ben.
48:31
Yeah, I thought. Yeah.
48:32
No one loves it as much as Pete. Exactly.
48:34
So it was the perfect, the perfect combination.
48:37
Russell got that Doctor Who magazine this week where it
48:39
came, bought with that poll and wept.
48:41
Indeed, indeed. But he asks, of course,
48:45
typically facetious. Who wound up Ox?
48:49
What was that? Who wound up all those clocks?
48:54
It's a dream. In it.
48:55
It's a dream. It's a dream in it.
48:59
Fine, OK Oh God, no, no, that's his name asks And better when
49:07
the script is written for Tom Baker.
49:11
Yes, yes, because because generally that means that the
49:17
script was mostly edited by somebody that wasn't Eric say
49:21
it's true, it is true. The rest there are comments.
49:25
So I won't, I won't read all of those app, but thank you
49:27
everyone for writing in. Now before we head out to choose
49:34
three recommends, we'll start with you.
49:37
We'll go back and forth. Okay.
49:40
And this is easy. There's.
49:42
So much. There's so much.
49:44
Simon Rouse's greatest Dr. Hoover The performance of all
49:48
time. Oh, has he done other ones?
49:53
He is a villain in the big finish.
49:54
What I mean is Simon Rouse does the greatest of all time, you
49:59
big finish. Yeah, that Jonathan Morris One
50:03
where God Howard Docks Planet or whatever it's called.
50:07
You know, like the the planets fighting a war against its past
50:11
and its future. I love that one.
50:14
That's good. That's good.
50:14
Yeah. He's.
50:15
I think he's like the the he's basic the Sanders figure in that
50:18
one. I think I'm going to go for
50:21
something deeply obvious, but that is Peter Grimway's
50:24
direction, because I just think it's such a car above what, like
50:29
Peter Moffett's one side? And oh God, it's not terror
50:32
Stuffy. Who is it he's full to do today,
50:35
John Black? The other side, and they are the
50:39
the definition of point and shoot, whereas Peter Grimway is
50:45
doing something a little more art house, you know, pop
50:48
effects. He's basically shooting a music
50:50
video off the time, isn't he? He is, he is quite really and I
50:55
think. So that leads me rather neatly
50:57
to my one, which is Peter Howell's score, because I think
51:00
it, combined with those visuals, does give you a kind of
51:04
properly, sort of contemporary 1980s Doctor Who gorgeous.
51:12
I was listening to it when you popped up on the zoom earlier,
51:14
wasn't I? You were.
51:17
And I for my second I'm going to say something I would never
51:20
normally say, and that's Janet Fielding's performance as Tegan.
51:23
Because finally she's been given a chance to prove what she can
51:26
do, and she's suddenly realized she's not in playschool.
51:31
So she can actually give a bit of nuance in her performance and
51:35
she sells it. Those scenes inside her head.
51:38
And then that scene where she's seducted with Aris, that sounds
51:43
like a weird sentence. She's I think it's it's up there
51:47
with the companion performances in classic series.
51:51
Yeah, definitely. And Speaking of companions,
51:53
Naris Hughes, who is the greatest Doctor companion we
51:57
never had All the greatest, you think?
52:00
Well, OK. The greatest 5th Doctor
52:03
companion we never had. Sorry, I'm just trying to make
52:06
more conversations. Left, right.
52:07
I'm trying to think. I know we'll never get out of
52:09
here. We'll be stuck in this circle of
52:12
mirrors for the rest of the time.
52:15
Yeah, I think she's great. And I think her chemistry with
52:18
Davidson, and that's slightly kind of flirty romance, I think
52:25
is a real hint of what you could have actually done with Doctor
52:28
Who in the 1980s with a younger Doctor that obviously the show
52:32
would then do with David Tennant comes in, but.
52:35
We could have had it a lot earlier, I reckon.
52:39
I think that the thing that Jay and T didn't realize was stuff
52:41
like moonlighting was insanely popular and just just a hint
52:46
like this. And it's so delicate here.
52:49
It's not like thrusting, you know, thrusting bodies at each
52:52
other and we think they're going to fuck up against the cable.
52:54
Well then that's going to happen.
52:56
It's just suggestion. But in front of fucking that's
53:02
what finished her off. She's blind.
53:05
She can still hear. How did we get here?
53:09
It always happens. My last one then, is gonna be
53:15
it's gonna be taking a punt on Christopher Bailey.
53:19
I don't think it's on a lot of TV, if any, before this.
53:24
Not before, I don't think, no. And I'm not sure what he did
53:27
after actually and just letting him run with something so
53:31
unusual and the fact that that script then went through three
53:36
sets of hands, 3 edges effectively, and what came out
53:42
was so impressive. Yeah, I don't know if you ever
53:45
seen like Star Trek in the mid 90s where sometimes there's like
53:49
5 credits, 5 writing credits. It's like story by this guy,
53:54
this guy, this guy, this guy, and then teleplay guy, this guy,
53:57
this guy, this fucking mess. Because there's all those people
54:02
pulling it in 20 directions. Whereas here it's just the the
54:05
ride was smooth for all those hands and he delivered something
54:09
the likes of which we'd never seen before and we would never
54:12
see again. Yeah, I I completely agree.
54:17
Yeah, he's great. What a, what a fine.
54:20
What a guy. Yeah, what a guy.
54:22
Well, Mark, that was a fabulous debut on Hamster.
54:28
Thank you. Very well.
54:29
Thank you. It was been thank you for having
54:31
me. It's been really lovely to to
54:32
finally I was come on your podcast.
54:37
I'm sorry you bring something out, and that's just a normal
54:41
sentence, but because I'm on this podcast, great look at you.
54:46
It somehow sounded dirty, and I don't, and I apologize.
54:49
I know it just starts happening somewhere on episode 3 and no
54:54
one's immune. Even Toby Hailo's been up to it.
54:59
I'm hoping that I can entice you back for round two.
55:03
Of course, yeah. Always happy to talk it up too.
55:06
You're in the classic series again, so you cherry pick
55:08
whatever your favorite is and we'll do it.
55:13
All right. Okay, Let's go circle back on
55:16
that discussion. Everything you're saying sounds
55:19
filthy. Come on.
55:22
But in the meantime, sorry everybody go and find on the
55:25
time Lash and listen to that back catalog and you will not
55:28
regret it. You might regret it.
55:33
I'm gonna cut it there.