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How a High Performer Lost Himself and Found Recovery · Finding New Waters

• 0:01
  You can't treat pain with more pain.
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  That's why consequences don't work for us generally, you know,
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  like that's why we can experience an awful consequence
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  or situation, right? And just two days later, we're
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  back at it and our family members are shaking and
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  scratching their heads. So more pain doesn't doesn't
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  heal us like love does. Community does.
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  Connection. A place where we can go and
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  contribute and collaborate. Welcome back everybody to
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  another episode of Finding New Waters.
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  My name is Bea Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
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  Development here at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, NC Sitting
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  here with our CEO, Justin McClendon and our very special
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  guest today, Mr. Thatcher Shively with Feinberg
• 0:41
  Consulting. Welcome.
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  Welcome, Thatcher. Thank you guys for having me.
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  And I just off the bat, I'm just super impressed that you
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  pronounced my last name right and you pronounced Feinberg
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  right. So we're we're just off to a
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  really good start to. Well, I was actually so focused
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  on doing it right that I almost said welcome Shively.
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  Yeah, I noticed that. I noticed.
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  I was like, oh, he's doing great.
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  And then when you when you you, you started for one SEC that
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  you, I mean, you caught yourself.
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  We would have never really known had you not told on yourself.
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  So there. You go.
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  I got to be honest. You know the the E and your name
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  seems to be out of place. It looks like it would be
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  Shively, but it is Shively. Well, I, I'm gonna let you take
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  the, you know, be a victim to the situation a little bit
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  because you're right. It the way that it's spelled,
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  it's it's a little tricky. So people, people have been
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  saying my whole name wrong both for my whole life.
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  So I'm, I'm, I've seen my whole life just simply correcting
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  people all day long. So we're good.
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  I completely relate. My name is one letter, but
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  nobody can spell it right. One time on my 40th birthday, I
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  went out to the car with my mom after we'd had lunch and she
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  handed me a bunch of birthday cards from 5 different great
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  aunts and different relatives who spelled my.
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  My name is spelled B period, which is my middle initial.
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  And my name was spelled 5 different ways B no period B
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  period Beebe A/B in quotations. And, you know, and I end up
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  explaining what it means probably five times a day, so.
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  I'd never. Had to.
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  The tragedy there isn't that like there was 5 misspellings,
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  right? The tragedy is there is that
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  that was that was family that did that.
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  Really. That's the tragedy.
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  But it was the thought that counted.
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  You know, they were. Of course, my first move was to
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  just take the card and shake him upside down to see what kind of
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  money was in there, even though I was 40 years old.
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  Wrote one more note on that, then we'll move on every time.
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  So B and I wind up getting on a lot of like virtual meetings
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  together and stuff like that. And it never ceases to amaze me
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  that like, I would say at least 95% of the time, the first
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  question is, so B, is your name B or is it, is it, you know,
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  abbreviation for something? And it's almost all of the time.
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  It's really funny. Yeah, it, I mean, it happens,
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  yeah, every day. And I mean, you know, we're in
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  the South and it's somewhat normal to have a longer name and
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  a nickname and all that. But you know, it served me
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  mostly well. So, and you would think nobody
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  would forget it. But to add to this, the first
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  person on my 4 step inventory of resentments was a guy I knew in
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  New York. And we had all these mutual
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  friends. I used to see him all the time
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  socially. And every single time I saw him,
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  he'd say, what's your name again?
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  Woes. Yeah, he deserves top tier
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  position on any result. He's.
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  One of those you. Know I would I forgave him like
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  everybody else and but you know it was interesting because I was
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  looking for patterns. Cool.
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  Hey man, thank you so much for being here and just so our
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  listeners and audience know that knows is that Thatcher is a
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  little under the weather but he's muscled through.
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  He was coming back from Chicago where it was freezing and, and
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  he, he's, we're just psyched to have him.
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  And thank you so much for being here.
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  And it's great to see you. No, man, I just appreciate being
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  here. You know, I've got the, the, the
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  cool opportunity to, to hang out with both of you guys at, at
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  different behavioral health conferences.
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  And you know, I don't know how else to say it.
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  You know, I'm not going to be super grand or dramatic.
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  I just, you guys are just cool dudes, man.
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  You know, so it's like, you know, when you asked, I was
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  like, absolutely. I think it was the last, at the
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  last conference we were at Justin together, you know, you
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  brought it up and I was like, count me in.
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  Absolutely. So I'm just, I'm happy to be
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  here and happy to talk to you guys.
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  So I appreciate you having me. Well, the feelings, yeah, yeah,
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  yeah, absolutely. And I remember we, Rick Barney,
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  mutual friend and colleague, remember he put us together.
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  We were out in Nevada. And for that, and we say both
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  you guys need to take a lesson skiing.
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  And that's how we first met. And then we became buddies.
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  And then we've all hung out. And you've been to Raleigh and
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  been to New Waters. And so anyway.
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  So, well, really quick funny story about that, if you don't
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  mind. So I kind of forgot about that.
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  And so, yeah, Rick put us together.
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  We both needed a lesson. And so I met you somewhere and
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  you were obviously in full ski guard.
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  You look like, you know, it was like a hazmat obviously, right?
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  And so I spent a lot of time with you without ever seeing
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  like, you know, really when you meet someone, you you get to
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  take in their physical characteristics.
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  And I all I heard was your voice.
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  And so I, you know, I created like a mental model of like what
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  you look like and your own persona.
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  And I saw you and I was like, oh, this is completely, I mean,
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  not bad or good. It was just completely
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  different. Because again, you usually don't
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  meet people like in that way when you get to see none of
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  their physical characteristics, right?
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  You only get to talk to them. And then it's kind of like our
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  version of love is blind, kind of like.
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  That's true. That's true.
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  That's awesome. Well, so you I noticed that your
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  title is Chief Relations officer.
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  Is that is that how long have you had that title?
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  That's. Somewhat recent the last year I,
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  I, I got promoted and thank you yeah, it's been it's been it's
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  been a journey. My journey with Feinberg
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  Consulting started back in 2016 ish and I came aboard to support
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  as a a recovery coach helping some of the male clientele down
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  here in South Florida area. That led to me doing some
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  business development, you know, contracted, which, you know, led
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  to me coming aboard full time to doing coaching and business
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  development, which then led to me start getting involved in
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  interventions with Steve Feldman and Pam Feinberg, our our
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  company owners and sitting second chair with them for a
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  couple of years and just really learning the that craft, if you
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  will. And I sat second chair for a
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  while. So I, you know, after that
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  stopped, I started doing first chair interventions and then I
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  got, you know, promoted to director of community relations
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  while still doing interventions and coaching.
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  And you know, that that bumped up, if you will, to chief
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  relations officer, which is really a fancy title for, you
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  know, I do quite a few different things.
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  Obviously, I, I coach, I do some interventions.
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  I am out in the out in the community, building
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  relationships, nurturing relationships with referral
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  sources. And also I'm, I'm on the front
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  and I'm usually the one that has most of the conversations with
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  families to explore their situation, see what's going on
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  and just really see if the services that we offer are good
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  fit for what they're going through.
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  So yeah. Cool.
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  What is? What is second chair mean to
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  people who don't know what that means?
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  Yeah. So our, our model of
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  intervention, right is we have a, a, a first chair and a second
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  chair, right? First chair is someone who's
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  trained as an interventionist, right And takes the family
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  through our process. Second chair in our model is a
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  clinician, right, who is there to support things clinically and
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  just, you know, make sure that we're, we're following a path
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  and keeping an eye out for, for all things clinical.
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  I don't know really how else to say it because I'm, I'm not a
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  clinician. I'm a trained interventionist,
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  right? That's where my skill lie, lies.
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  But you know, I, I can't imagine doing an intervention by
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  yourself, having two people, let alone just the extra clinical
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  support and, and, and, and peace, right?
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  Just having two people that are there to support a family system
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  and are actually there boots on the ground for the intervention,
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  I find is just super helpful because at times during an
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  intervention, you know, we need to kind of split off.
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  I need to go out with the, with the identified loved 1 and go
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  walk around the block while my the second chair stays back and
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  kind of supports and coaches the family.
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  So that that's what we mean by first and second chair.
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  Well, thank you for that. And I thought I knew what it
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  meant and I knew kind of, but I didn't understand that maybe
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  there's more of a clinical responsibility for that second
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  chair. And you just said something that
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  reminded me of, you know, when I was, you know, I've known you
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  now for several years, but read a little bit about you just, you
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  know, some cursory research. Don't want to do too much, want
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  to keep it fresh, but there's a quote on your bio that says if
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  you want to go fast, go it alone, but if you want to go
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  far, go together or something like that.
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  And that sounds kind of like what you mean there.
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  Yeah, I think, you know, we, I think it's like, listen, right,
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  we can, I can draw this in, in my own personal like experience
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  with recovery, right? The thing that really spoke to
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  me when I was looking to get sober, right, and looking to
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  figure out a way to stay sober was the community aspect that,
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  you know, fellowship and recovery offered.
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  I, I, I'm of the opinion that that's like, kind of like the
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  secret sauce. I mean, there's obviously a ton
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  of different factors that could that go into like supporting
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  someone, but for me it was it was having a community.
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  And it was like when I walked into my first meeting, it was
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  like some long lost part of me had had really kind of come
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  home. And I know that sounds pretty
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  dramatic, but by default and by nature, and I'm still this way
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  to this day, I'm a separatist, right?
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  I like to do things by myself with myself, right, and to
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  collaborate and, you know, contribute.
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  Like those aren't necessarily things that are, are like baked
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  in as a first response for me. And so I learned that in, in
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  recovery and at Finder, we, we operate in the same capacity in
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  terms of, you know, we have a big team and, and Michigan and
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  Florida and dispersed all throughout the country.
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  And when we support families, you know, they also get a small
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  little team, kind of like our own little system.
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  And even when we're doing interventions with the first and
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  second chair, right, we're consulting with our internal
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  team, you know, behind the scenes to get their input and
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  insights and it can taste conceptualize and things like
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  that. And so I, I just think, you
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  know, having a community, that's how we were kind of hard wired
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  to live and operate like human beings or social beings.
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  And I, I don't, I don't think it's any different.
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  And you know, whether it's in our recovery or, or in our
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  personal life or work. So yeah, we're big on that.
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  Man, I just had a thought, you know, about on that note, you
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  talking about how you know you like to go it alone.
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  I certainly relate to that and had a similar thing.
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  You know, when I went to treatment, we went to meetings
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  every night, speaker meetings. When I, when I got home, I went
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  to him. I got home at 10:30 in the
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  morning and went to so I took me to meet a meeting at noon, my
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  first kind of out in the wild meeting that wasn't kind of
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  forced. And I remember, you know, it was
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  all sorts of people, retired and young and old and every race,
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  gender, you know, just whatever. And I just remember walking in
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  and feeling so at home for the first time in so long.
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  And I came from a very loving home and I, you know, have great
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  support in front. But I just finally found that.
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  And then, you know, you know, kind of dove into the community
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  part. But what I was thinking about
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  then was how sick and selfish we are myself, you know, included
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  addicts and Alcoholics that behind the scenes we've got
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  first chair, second chair and internal team back in Michigan
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  and Florida. The family, you know, the, you
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  know, the parent, all these stakeholders in a team of people
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  all working together to try to help this one person who, who
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  here, you know, thinks he can do it alone.
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  Like I, I, I mean like I was, you know, it's, it's wild.
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  Yeah, yeah. Just to think about all the
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  activity and all the effort and care, right?
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  Because really all of that action that's going behind the
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  scenes, it's, it's love, you know what I mean?
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  Like all that love that's being kind of generated, right?
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  And you know, usually the alcoholic or addict or the
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  person they're intervening on like, like their first response
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  to that love, rightfully so I totally get it is to fight and
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  resist, right? Not unlike when a lot of people
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  enter their first meeting, right?
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  It's to kind of like, whoa, no fight, resist and right.
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  And so surrendering to that, that I think that that's that's
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  when our life changes. I mean, again, this is drawing
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  more from my like personal recovery experience, but I, I
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  think, right, alcoholism and addiction, it's, it's really
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  about pain. And you can't treat pain with
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  more pain. That's why consequences don't
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  work for us generally, you know, like that's why we can
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  experience an awful consequence or situation, right?
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  And just two days later we're back at it and our family
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  members are shaking and scratching their head.
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  So more pain doesn't, doesn't heal us like love does.
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  Community does connection, a place where we can go and
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  contribute and collaborate, right?
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  And so I, I, I, you know, I more pain doesn't, doesn't do
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  anything for us really, right? I, I think there's two great
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  teachers in life. It's pain because that does
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  teach you something. It's not a long lasting
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  strategy, right? It'll get me in the door
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  somewhere. But the other teacher, love and
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  connection, that's what keeps us right?
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  And that's what's sustainable. And like, not sober today
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  because I'm terrified of like, you know, my consequences,
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  right? I think about them sometimes and
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  I shiver a little bit, but like, I'm sober today because of love.
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  I love my life like I I love my wife, I love I I receive love
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  gave up. So it's like those are those two
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  great teachers are are needed and necessary, but I think the
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  latter is is much more powerful, if you will so.
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  Amen to that. Thatcher, as you're talking
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  about that, I'm wondering, it sounds like, and I guess that's,
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  I think that's to be expected. As you know, in an intervention
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  situation, you know, I envisioned like the clients
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  there, the the teams there, the families there.
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  And like you said, that maybe first responses, Hey, no, I
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  don't want to do this right. I'm defended, you know, how do I
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  get out of this situation? Is there any kind of theme that
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  you see there of like, you know, at some point they kind of they,
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  they lean in and they accept that help or they accept that
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  that love that's being offered. Yeah, I think what helps is, is
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  to not meet their resistance with more resistance, right.
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  And and that's where coaching the family beforehand and
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  prepping them and kind of neutralizing and normalizing
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  that response, right. And it like assigning language
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  to that and saying, listen, like this is a normal response,
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  right? This is the surprise party that
• 14:40
  nobody wants, right? And so, you know, they may try
• 14:44
  to put up their Dukes, but we're not, we're not there for that.
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  That's not why we're there. And so our model is very caring,
• 14:50
  loving, dignified. We're there to tell them the
• 14:52
  truth, but we're not weaponizing the truth.
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  And I always say that this is, this is not an indictment, this
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  is an invitation for them to see, hopefully see something
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  bigger for themselves that they can't necessarily see because
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  they're trapped, you know, in their addiction.
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  And so I think the theme is when they see that we're not there
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  for that and we're there because we love them.
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  And that's communicated because that's what an, and you know,
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  interventions about, it's about communication, not confrontation
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  that melts, that melts defenses and has them like, you know,
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  again, I think at the end of the day, an intervention is about
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  helping someone see what they are unable to see, right?
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  And they can't see themselves clearly.
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  They, they can't really see what they're doing to their family.
• 15:34
  They can't see what they're doing to themselves, right?
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  They may be, they have moments of clarity, but that's available
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  to them. But they can wash that out that
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  their whole survival depends. I, I think depends upon like
• 15:44
  just getting rid of that thought and not being real with it.
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  And so when they see that we're not there for that and, you
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  know, like this, it's a safe place where they're loved and
• 15:53
  they're cared for it and that that that melts their defense.
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  Typical, it's amazing. I love them.
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  And what's the typical? I mean, I would imagine there's
• 16:04
  just a wide spectrum of like what the goal is or you know,
• 16:07
  what is what is success look like in that intervention
• 16:09
  situation? What would you say about that?
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  Is that true that there's not always necessarily treatment,
• 16:14
  but maybe there's other kind of avenues or endpoints?
• 16:17
  Yeah, I think a success for an intervention, I mean, it's so
• 16:20
  hard to benchmark that right? And measure right.
• 16:22
  I, I, I think a success is, is, is having a successful meeting,
• 16:27
  right, where, you know, a, a, a conversation can be had, right?
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  And, and, and what ends up as a result of that?
• 16:34
  Usually with intervention, it's a direct ask to, to get help,
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  right. But if we have a good meeting,
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  right, an intervention meeting and, and things that need to be
• 16:46
  said or said, right? And we plant the seed with them
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  and they end up going to treatment a few days later or we
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  come, we come with, with a different plan, right, that
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  everyone is OK with. Like I still think that's a
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  success, right? And so I think, and again,
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  prepping the family for that, right?
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  And, and, and the different avenues we can kind of go down.
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  I, I, it, it, it's important. So for me, a success is because
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  I always tell families like, no matter what, at the end of this
• 17:13
  process, you can be moved to a better place if you commit, if
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  you have a commitment independent of what your loved
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  one says, does or doesn't do, we can move you as a family because
• 17:23
  this is just as much for you as it is for them.
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  Obviously we want them to accept help today and that's the goal
• 17:28
  and that's the commitment. But you know, let's not have
• 17:31
  everything hang on that because this is about you, right?
• 17:35
  And this process about you healing as well and, and and
• 17:37
  moving to a different place. I love that.
• 17:41
  When you so you were you've been sober since O 5, right?
• 17:46
  Yeah, since O 5. What, what was your path to
• 17:50
  finding recovery and then sort of the transition to working in
• 17:53
  the field? Like I've talked about this a
• 17:55
  million times when I had no idea that this was really a job
• 17:58
  until, you know, I was a. Field.
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  Like, not just a job, it's a field.
• 18:03
  Yeah, yeah. So I'll, in a short word, jail.
• 18:07
  You know, I, I just started finding myself in these
• 18:12
  situations where I just kept getting arrested and guys named
• 18:16
  Thatcher don't do well in county jails.
• 18:18
  Just crazy. Just, it's crazy to think about,
• 18:23
  but, and so I, I was faced with an alternative by my attorney at
• 18:26
  the time. And he's like, listen, you can
• 18:29
  go to the court ordered treatment or you can look at,
• 18:31
  you know, doing more jailed. And I was like a option a, you
• 18:36
  know, there's an easy choice. And so I went to a, a state-run
• 18:40
  DOC rehab. My, my attorney said it would be
• 18:44
  good for me. And there I, I, you know, I, I,
• 18:49
  I don't know that anything super magical happened other than I
• 18:52
  guess this is magical, right? I was able to write for the
• 18:55
  first time, actually take a look at what's going on and
• 18:58
  adequately appraise myself and my, in my situation.
• 19:01
  And I started to see things more clearly, right?
• 19:03
  And So what started off as like this obligation shifted into an
• 19:08
  opportunity, right? Technically, I went into
• 19:10
  treatment for the wrong reason that I had to, but I stayed
• 19:14
  because I, I wanted to, right. And so after I kind of crossed
• 19:18
  this invisible line, I, I, I started to see that like this,
• 19:22
  I, I need this, like this is good for me.
• 19:24
  And, and from there, you know, my last week of treatment or so,
• 19:29
  they called me into their office, my counselor and said,
• 19:32
  you get 2 options. You can go home, which was
• 19:34
  Tampa, FL at the time, or you can go to this place called
• 19:36
  Delray Beach in South Florida where a lot of young people are
• 19:39
  having a lot of success getting sober and they have a great
• 19:42
  community out there. And everything in my body wanted
• 19:44
  to go back home. That's like that was that was
• 19:46
  familiar. That was what I knew.
• 19:48
  And just something inside me said, don't go home.
• 19:52
  There's nothing there for you. And before I knew it, like out
• 19:56
  of my mouth, like I just like, I'll go to Delray Beach.
• 19:58
  And so a week later, I was on a train to Delray Beach with a
• 20:02
  garbage bag of clothes less than 100 bucks.
• 20:05
  You know, starting a new life and I know it's it's been a
• 20:08
  journey ever since for sure. I can't believe that was 20
• 20:11
  years ago. That's insane.
• 20:12
  But that's amazing. Man, man, it's awesome.
• 20:14
  Congrats on that. Well, you know that you, it's
• 20:17
  funny because, you know, you just said you had that choice of
• 20:21
  going to more jail or going to a treatment center.
• 20:25
  And to your point earlier, sometimes the consequences just
• 20:28
  aren't enough sometimes. And people, we see it where
• 20:30
  people have that are presented with those same two options and
• 20:33
  they would rather go to jail then give up.
• 20:37
  And I mean, even just pretend to want to get better.
• 20:40
  You know, it's it's so crazy because I guess on some level
• 20:43
  people know and think and know that they can still get drunk
• 20:47
  and high in jail. I don't, I don't, I don't know.
• 20:49
  But I'd, we do see people make that choice, you know, and like
• 20:52
  you kind of said, man, it was kind of happening for you and
• 20:55
  started doing something for yourself.
• 20:57
  Those consequences put you in a position and where you were able
• 21:00
  to start, you know, accepting some help.
• 21:03
  Amazing, amazing story. Thanks, man.
• 21:05
  I mean, listen again, like consequences are, can like are,
• 21:08
  can be very powerful, but I, you know, they can, like I said,
• 21:12
  kind of push you into recovery. Like they're not going to, I
• 21:14
  don't think they're going to keep you there.
• 21:16
  That's where you need to kind of tap into something bigger and
• 21:18
  better for yourself. And you know, I always tell
• 21:21
  families that we're working with, they're like, he's got to
• 21:23
  want it. I'm like, I, I didn't want it.
• 21:26
  Like, like we can't count on him wanting certain things because
• 21:30
  he's not in a place to make he can't see his world clearly.
• 21:34
  He can't see like, right. How can we count on him making
• 21:37
  good choices? Let's bring this to him, even if
• 21:40
  it's, you know, not his idea and hope because miracles happen
• 21:44
  that somewhere along the way they'll be this shit and it'll
• 21:47
  cross this line and see that this is, you know, again, some
• 21:51
  that there's something available here for him.
• 21:53
  And I think that happens. That happens all the time.
• 21:55
  And that was my journey. They did not go into that
• 21:57
  treatment. I went on that treatment center
• 21:58
  like because I had to, but by the time I left, it was like I
• 22:01
  said, it was something that I I wanted.
• 22:03
  So yeah, Madam, that's it's very fortunate.
• 22:07
  I completely agree with that. That approach is, you know, just
• 22:11
  exactly what you said, Thatcher, like somebody is not a
• 22:13
  prerequisite to, you know, inner treatment or be sober or find
• 22:16
  happiness, you know, to be motivated and want that for
• 22:20
  yourself. But I think, you know, the
• 22:22
  responsibility, quote UN quote, of the family or the the support
• 22:26
  members around them is to continue to provide those
• 22:28
  opportunities for them to, you know, to be able to have
• 22:31
  miracles happen for them, right? And it's the opportunities, you
• 22:35
  know, just giving them the ability to be in a place where
• 22:38
  good things can happen. I mean, that's what it's all
• 22:39
  about. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's
• 22:43
  what is the old saying? Like you can, you know, you can
• 22:46
  eat a horse of water, but you can't drink, right?
• 22:49
  But like I, I can bring the horse water, you know, like
• 22:53
  that. That's what we're here to do,
• 22:55
  right? And that, and that's what's
• 22:56
  beautiful about recovery. It's like all around the world,
• 22:58
  right? There's constant water supply,
• 23:01
  right? It's up to me to go to get it,
• 23:03
  right? But it, it, it's, it's always
• 23:05
  there, right. So Oh yeah, I I agree.
• 23:08
  Yeah, we're, I was talking to a guy last night who got some not
• 23:11
  so great news. And, you know, he thinking his
• 23:15
  life is over and he'd been to treatment a couple times and it
• 23:18
  was always to for his family, you know, for his wife and his
• 23:21
  kids. And, you know, the truth is, and
• 23:24
  we talked about this last night and we talked about it on here a
• 23:27
  lot. You know, we can get sober for
• 23:28
  other people, whether that's mom, dad, wife, kids, the state
• 23:33
  of Florida, whatever, but we can only stay that way for
• 23:36
  ourselves. I mean, that's, that's true.
• 23:38
  And then the, the piece about the consequences is, you know,
• 23:45
  it, they call sometimes a nudge from a judge, you know, and
• 23:50
  whether it's going to be your wife's leaving you, whatever it
• 23:53
  is. But I, you know, I heard it said
• 23:57
  when I was early sobriety and I was, you know, I was, I wasn't
• 24:02
  doubting being in recovery. I was just kind of stalling on
• 24:05
  some, some work. I was doing my step work and I
• 24:08
  heard three people in a 2 day period at three different
• 24:12
  meetings say the same thing. Recovery is not for people who
• 24:17
  need it or for people or for people who want it is for people
• 24:20
  who do it. And to that point, yeah, like,
• 24:23
  not everybody comes in like, hey, Oh my God, I'm helpless.
• 24:27
  I surrender. I want help.
• 24:28
  I need help, help. I'll do anything.
• 24:30
  Just tell me what to do and I'll do it myself included.
• 24:33
  Most people just kind of have to go through the motions long
• 24:35
  enough to get some some results and then realize, hey, this
• 24:38
  actually works and is better. And then, you know, people are
• 24:43
  always saying to me, gobby, it must be so hard, you know, and
• 24:46
  I'm like, I don't ever want to sound cocky about it.
• 24:49
  You know, we're neither cocky nor we afraid.
• 24:51
  But I also, what I really always just try to remember to say is
• 24:56
  nothing as hard as it was before.
• 24:58
  I, right before I got sober, especially living that way and
• 25:01
  lying to everybody, feeling awful my whole life was just the
• 25:04
  right amount of text messages to keep people off my back.
• 25:07
  And I mean, just that's hard, you know, that's, that is hard.
• 25:11
  Yeah. It's it's exhausting.
• 25:12
  It's exhausting. Yeah, I, I, I totally agree,
• 25:15
  man. You know, and it's, it's funny.
• 25:19
  It's like it's, it's hard to conceptualize what it's like on
• 25:24
  this other side to somebody, right?
• 25:26
  And to your point, like you have to like give yourself these
• 25:30
  experiences. And I think those experiences is
• 25:33
  what along the way, like changes us.
• 25:35
  But you have to move your feet it to a point.
• 25:37
  It's, it's action, right? And, and our recovery lingo,
• 25:40
  right? It's it's seeking, right?
• 25:42
  We seek and then we start to have these experiences and these
• 25:45
  experiences like inform us, I think, at least for me, right?
• 25:50
  And then kind of have me come to this place where I can, you
• 25:53
  know, recontextualize my life, see things differently.
• 25:56
  But like, that's not going to come from like reading a
• 25:59
  pamphlet, right? It's going to come from being
• 26:02
  with other people, you know, and, and, and having a shared
• 26:05
  experience and having my own experience and have these kind
• 26:08
  of touchstones. I, I honestly, I mean, that's
• 26:10
  why it's called a spiritual experience and not a spiritual
• 26:14
  explanation, you know, like it like we'd, I think, I truly
• 26:18
  think that it's, you know, these experiences along the way that
• 26:21
  that that change us. And yeah, I mean that that's
• 26:24
  what it was like for me in anyway, you know?
• 26:27
  Yeah, I love that. Me too.
• 26:29
  So, So what about the transition from being an individual in
• 26:33
  personal recovery to working in the field kind of how did how
• 26:37
  did that take place for you? Yeah, so it was around 2016, I
• 26:43
  was living down down in South Florida and I was involved in
• 26:45
  this like personal development, leadership, community slash
• 26:50
  training. It was like a spiritual
• 26:53
  community. And I met Steve Feldman and Pam
• 26:57
  Feinberg there. They were also participating in
• 27:00
  it. And it was just by happenstance
• 27:01
  that I, I, I met them and Steve, you know, Feldman basically
• 27:06
  said, Hey, you know, we, you know, I think you'd be a good
• 27:08
  fit. You want to support some guys
• 27:10
  doing some recovery coaching down here.
• 27:12
  And I did. And so, you know, I made that
• 27:14
  transition and, you know, at first it was a little, it was
• 27:18
  strange. I'm got to be honest.
• 27:19
  I, I'll just Full disclosure, I, I'm a, I'm a 12 step guy, all
• 27:23
  right. I'm I'm I'm a big I'm still an
• 27:26
  active part of my life being So to your point, be like, I didn't
• 27:30
  know this was like AAI didn't I didn't like, I just didn't.
• 27:34
  I didn't know it was a job. I didn't think it was a space.
• 27:36
  I didn't think it was a field, like none of that.
• 27:38
  And so, you know, I slowly got introduced to it.
• 27:42
  And I mean, you know, I just haven't looked back ever since
• 27:45
  then. And it's, you know, I love
• 27:47
  working in this field. I I I think it's an an honor.
• 27:50
  I don't always remember this like, you know, ask me in a
• 27:53
  couple of hours after I have to take a couple of phone calls,
• 27:55
  right. But what a cool thing is it just
• 27:59
  for me that like I get to do something that, you know, I
• 28:02
  think is attached to to having a purpose and, and my purpose and
• 28:06
  I just feel really lucky and really fortunate.
• 28:08
  So how do you guys feel about that getting to work in the
• 28:11
  space? Man, same.
• 28:13
  Absolutely. And I, you know, I can't imagine
• 28:17
  do anything else. And of course, when I was in
• 28:19
  fifth grade, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grow up.
• 28:21
  It wasn't, you know, part of a treatment Center for drugs and
• 28:25
  alcohol and mental health conditions.
• 28:27
  But it's, this is what I feel like I'm meant to be doing and I
• 28:31
  love it. And I'm so grateful that I get
• 28:33
  to do this. And I'm so glad you brought that
• 28:36
  up about that sort of maybe hesitation of working in the
• 28:39
  field and getting paid to do this work.
• 28:42
  And this summer, I was presented with an opportunity to, to start
• 28:47
  working in this field, which again, I didn't know it existed
• 28:49
  even after it had been to treat me.
• 28:50
  You know, I knew that there were doctors and nurses and
• 28:52
  therapists, maintenance people, behavioral text, whatever, but
• 28:56
  just never occurred to me that there needed to be people out
• 28:58
  there making sure that the world knows these places and services
• 29:03
  exist and also equally as important, vetting out the other
• 29:07
  places in the process. But we were I was in a in a sort
• 29:12
  of makeshift COVID men's group at a guy's house where we were
• 29:16
  reading at the time, a Sandy B book, a book of one of his, of
• 29:21
  one of his talks called Steps and stories.
• 29:24
  And there's a part in there where he talks about the concept
• 29:27
  of the two Hatter. And it was right when I started
• 29:32
  talking to this original company I worked for because I was, you
• 29:35
  know, and still am like, you know, like you said, I'm a 12
• 29:38
  step guy, you know, big time. And the last thing ever want to
• 29:40
  do is pollute that or taint that or break any tradition.
• 29:44
  And there's a part in that book where it talks about that
• 29:47
  concept. Is it OK for one of us to be
• 29:51
  paid to work in this field? And I was literally, it was like
• 29:56
  suspenseful reading to find out what the what the answer is.
• 29:59
  I'm suspenseful. Now waiting for the answer.
• 30:02
  Well, thank God the answer is yes, as long as we keep them
• 30:05
  very separate. And so that's, you know, the
• 30:07
  best advice ever got was don't let this be my, my job, be my
• 30:10
  recovery. And I do my best to keep that
• 30:12
  them separate. They can complement each other,
• 30:14
  but the moment I start telling myself that my recovery is
• 30:18
  enhanced because I help somebody or that I'm doing my work and my
• 30:22
  recovery by helping somebody get to treatment or talking to a
• 30:25
  family at 11:00 at night, that's my job.
• 30:28
  That is, I get, I get it as my job.
• 30:30
  You know, my recovery is my recovery.
• 30:31
  My job is my job. And but the, but there was a, it
• 30:35
  was sort of a dilemma because they, because all there was a,
• 30:37
  there were more and more treatment centers and, and the
• 30:39
  way I ultimately land the, what I ultimately landed on, and this
• 30:44
  is before I even got that advice to keep them separate.
• 30:46
  But if somebody, if somebody's got to do it, I would, I want it
• 30:50
  to be a person like you, Thatcher, you, Justin and
• 30:54
  myself, you know, I, I, that's what I want in this kind of
• 30:58
  person in this, in this field. So.
• 31:00
  Absolutely. But I but I, you know, I can't
• 31:03
  say I struggle with it, but I definitely thought about it was
• 31:05
  one of those God things right when I'm presented with this
• 31:08
  opportunity that the explanation just appeared before me in a
• 31:11
  meeting. It was crazy.
• 31:13
  That is crazy. I mean, it would be strange like
• 31:15
  if you didn't have like try if you didn't find a need to apply
• 31:19
  some discernment to that, right. Like, and you know, I, I went
• 31:23
  through the same process and you know, I, I, I, to your point and
• 31:28
  it, we hear it all the time like this.
• 31:29
  What, what I do for Feinberg Consulting and in the behavioral
• 31:33
  field, right? It's, it's my, it's how I make
• 31:37
  my money. Obviously it's more than that.
• 31:39
  But if I reduce it to its simplest terms, like my purpose
• 31:42
  is assigned with it too as well. And how lucky are we, like I
• 31:45
  said earlier, that we get to do that.
• 31:46
  But to your point, that's my job.
• 31:48
  And, and what I do is sponsoring guys going to meetings, right,
• 31:53
  doing service, doing steps, right, taking guys through the
• 31:57
  steps that they're, they're, they're two lanes that just kind
• 32:00
  of run parallel to each other. But it, they're not the same
• 32:03
  lanes. They're not.
• 32:04
  Well said. Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:07
  I completely agree. And I think the other piece is I
• 32:11
  would I would hope that this is true for everybody that works in
• 32:14
  this field. Sounds like you guys are in
• 32:16
  complete agreement. But I mean, just what a cool
• 32:19
  privilege and just blessing that we get to be able to to do this
• 32:23
  for a living. You know what I mean is that,
• 32:25
  you know, we don't go kind of sit behind a desk and like
• 32:27
  crunch numbers or do like whatever else the rest of the
• 32:29
  world does with their lives on a daily basis.
• 32:31
  Like we get to help people, you know, try to at least anyway,
• 32:34
  usher individuals to find just peace and happiness in their
• 32:37
  life, helping those families connected with those individuals
• 32:41
  find a little bit more peace and happiness.
• 32:42
  And like I, you know, some days, like you said, Thatcher, you
• 32:47
  know, the, the stress of whatever we're doing can, can
• 32:49
  become a little overwhelming and we can lose sight of that
• 32:52
  temporarily. But I really try to keep that in
• 32:54
  focus. You know that like man, like
• 32:56
  what an absolute gift that I get to wake up each day and just try
• 33:00
  and help somebody just be, you know, have a little bit better
• 33:02
  of an existence on this earth. You know what I mean?
• 33:04
  Dude, 100%, yeah, 100 per. And, and there's a couple things
• 33:09
  to that, I think, like having that ability to reframe things
• 33:12
  like that, like and, and, and look at it for what it really is
• 33:15
  in the face of like experiencing frustration or for me, it's
• 33:20
  annoyance, right? And sometimes, right.
• 33:22
  Like to me, that's like the essence of a spiritual practice
• 33:25
  is being able to stop and OK, look at this clearly and through
• 33:29
  like a principled lens. Like that to me is like the
• 33:32
  essence of like my spiritual practice, if you will.
• 33:35
  It's like the ability to see things clearly and for what they
• 33:38
  really are. And honestly, my favorite part
• 33:40
  about working in this field, and this is a little bit self
• 33:44
  selfish, is the, the cool people that are involved in the field,
• 33:49
  like the good people that are also like cool and fun.
• 33:54
  And I've met like the, the the coolest people in in in this
• 33:58
  field. I really have and, and made some
• 34:00
  really cool friendships. And like you're getting to your
• 34:02
  point. Could you?
• 34:03
  I just couldn't imagine, you know, working in a cubicle
• 34:07
  crunching numbers on excel sheet.
• 34:09
  I mean, I got to get on excel, my company, they're they're
• 34:12
  pushing, I've got to do it right.
• 34:14
  And and and and and and it's it is what it is, but I just
• 34:18
  couldn't imagine that that was like I just I we're to your
• 34:21
  point again, I, I just, I'm in it just very fortunate.
• 34:25
  And it's tough because trying to explain to people that aren't in
• 34:28
  this space like what it is that we do is is always very
• 34:31
  interesting. So but yeah, we're we're we got
• 34:34
  it made man like and again I. Completely.
• 34:37
  Agree, The goal is to remember this at 5:00 later on or at 9:00
• 34:40
  tonight when the family calls right on Saturday.
• 34:43
  But you know, you know I'm. That's exactly right.
• 34:46
  Well, it's funny, I just you just brought somebody really
• 34:49
  never thought about, you know, the it's impossible to explain
• 34:52
  this type of work to anybody who's not in it.
• 34:56
  And then the other thing is it's impossible to explain what life
• 34:59
  on the other side of, you know, active addiction and alcoholism
• 35:02
  is, you know, and that that having that spiritual experience
• 35:04
  and continue to spiritual experience awakening of the
• 35:08
  educational variety can't explain that anybody man, you
• 35:12
  know, and we're just doubly lucky is 2 Hatters.
• 35:16
  Two Hatters. Yeah, I gotta find that.
• 35:18
  Like if you could send that to me.
• 35:19
  I'm a big Sandy B guy. He's he's he's like my I listen
• 35:24
  to his walks on my runs and walks.
• 35:26
  I listen to his talks on my runs and walks all the time.
• 35:28
  He's he's the best. He's the best.
• 35:30
  Yeah, I will do that. Well, we're getting, you know,
• 35:34
  coming up against it here a little bit.
• 35:35
  So we know kind of what you personally do.
• 35:38
  What all does Feinberg do as an organization and just, you know,
• 35:42
  give us the skinny on that. And then also make sure you tell
• 35:46
  our listeners and our audience how to find you.
• 35:49
  Yeah. So Feinberg Consulting is a
• 35:52
  national case management company, right?
• 35:54
  We're like we said earlier, we're based in Florida, we're
• 35:56
  based in Michigan. We have offices and staff along
• 35:59
  with staff dispersed all over the country.
• 36:03
  We're a concierge case management company, right?
• 36:05
  I hate to use the word concierge, right, But you know,
• 36:08
  that kind of what it is and really what our speciality is,
• 36:11
  is working with families that have a loved one who's
• 36:13
  struggling, right? And we do that through a variety
• 36:16
  of different things. We, we, we do family coaching,
• 36:19
  we do recovery coaching, offer sober companions, sober
• 36:23
  transports, assessments and, and planning all that to really say
• 36:29
  that for families that, like I said, have a loved one
• 36:32
  struggling. What we specialize is coming
• 36:34
  aboard and helping the family come up with a plan, right?
• 36:38
  Finding an appropriate fit for their loved 1 and supporting the
• 36:41
  family as they navigate like that, that terrain between that
• 36:45
  call to us that their loved one are struggling and giving their
• 36:48
  loved one help. And, and even after that, right?
• 36:50
  And we do interventions as well, obviously.
• 36:52
  And so we, we specialize in really helping families and
• 36:57
  helping their identified loved ones get the help that they
• 36:59
  need. We we love what we do and, and
• 37:02
  yeah, that's it really. It's very obvious that you do
• 37:06
  love what you do. And I know Pam and I've met lots
• 37:08
  of other people at Feinberg, all great people, great
• 37:11
  organization. We'd like know and trust, you
• 37:13
  know, and that's what it's all about.
• 37:15
  But we'll put all this on our show notes and you know, the
• 37:19
  everywhere we can. But just tell people what
• 37:21
  they're just listening. How do they find you?
• 37:22
  Yeah, So what? I'll talk about Feinberg.
• 37:24
  We can find us@feinbergcare.com, Feinberg, care.com.
• 37:31
  You can find me on LinkedIn under Thatcher Shogley.
• 37:34
  Should I give up my e-mail address?
• 37:36
  What should I do? Or or.
• 37:37
  Whatever you want, yeah. Yeah, yeah, my, you can find me
• 37:39
  my e-mail address, tshivley@feinbergcare.com.
• 37:44
  Listen, I also got all the socials.
• 37:46
  I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook.
• 37:47
  Feel free to find me there. And yeah, if I can ever answer
• 37:50
  any questions, have any conversations about recovery,
• 37:53
  about, you know, if your loved 1 needs help, I'm, I'm, I'm happy
• 37:56
  to do it. I'd like to give a shout out to
• 37:58
  you guys too. You know, I had the pleasure of
• 38:00
  visiting New Waters back in February.
• 38:03
  It was right. Was that February B?
• 38:05
  It was. I think so.
• 38:06
  It was snowing. Remember, we were sitting at
• 38:07
  Biscuitville while it was snowing.
• 38:09
  Long Biscuitville, Big Biscuitville fan.
• 38:12
  I got to tell you no, I'm not so crazy about being a Florida boy.
• 38:16
  But you know, you guys, you know Justin, you weren't there.
• 38:19
  I think you were away. Were you aware?
• 38:22
  I think you were. Right, we had we had dinner.
• 38:25
  You weren't there for the tour, but we had dinner, that's where.
• 38:28
  It was. And you know, you guys are
• 38:32
  quality program run by people who care and really at the end
• 38:35
  of the day, that's what we want to align with, right as people
• 38:38
  that, you know, obviously run a quality, sophisticated,
• 38:42
  clinically, you know, sound program, but also people that
• 38:47
  you know, that are running it and working there care and know
• 38:50
  what they're doing. And and so shout out to you guys
• 38:52
  as well. And, and we just appreciate
• 38:54
  knowing you and, and having you as a resource for the families
• 38:58
  we work with. Thank you for.
• 39:00
  That Yeah. Thank you for saying that, man.
• 39:02
  And thank you so much for being here.
• 39:04
  And I hope this conversation gave you that jolt you needed
• 39:08
  instead of an emergency packet. And have yourself a great day,
• 39:13
  man. Thank you so much for being
• 39:15
  here. Thank you.
• 39:16
  Yeah. Thank you, Justin.
• 39:17
  I hope I see you guys soon and I just, I really appreciate it.
• 39:20
  So thank you. Absolutely.
• 39:22
  Thank you, buddy. Thanks.
• 39:24
  If you liked what you heard today or just want to know more,
• 39:26
  give us a call on 9196708119 or visit us at
• 39:31
  newwatersrecovery.com. Thank you.