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How to Create a Powerful Book Proposal with Liz Morrow · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyWriterLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're self-publishing, using a traditional publisher, or perhaps considering a hybrid publisher for your book, you're going to need a book proposal.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: But why is it so important and how do you go about creating it?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my guest today is Liz Morrow, and she's here to shed some light on this all-important topic of book proposals for writers.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Liz is a ghostwriter and book proposal expert who specializes in books focused on business and leadership, self-help and personal growth, and memoir.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: She's especially skilled at helping subject matter experts and those with an interesting story to identify their goals, clarify their message, and write a book that connects with the audience it's meant to.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, Liz helps us understand the ins and outs of book proposals, the elements that make them successful, and why you should create a book proposal even if you self-publish.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Trust me, you're going to want to take notes in this conversation because Liz is going to save you countless hours of heartache and confusion by laying out how to create a powerful book proposal.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have done book proposals for client books and for my own books as well.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got to tell you, anytime that I have not created a book proposal, it creates major problems later on because, well, you'll understand why when you when we get to this conversation, but this is really, really good stuff.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, it's really important stuff.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for tuning in, and I know you're going to really enjoy this conversation with the amazing and talented Liz Morrow.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Liz, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is your first time on the show, and it's really good to have you.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: We've been chatting back and forth for a few months now about books and book proposals and other kinds of stuff.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh great to have you here talking about all things books and proposals.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: So before we get into some nitty-gritty about proposals, can you share your story of how did you get into this whole writing world in the first place?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you specifically get interested in proposals?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is such a kind of a niche topic that a lot of people don't understand.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people feel intimidated by.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious if you can kind of walk us through your journey of how did you sort of get to this place?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I have been the kind of person that always loved writing, always wanted to do writing, um, but took a winding path to get here.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of writers, I suppose.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not like, you know, I don't know, being like a doctor or something where there's like a very set path you have to take to get there.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I yeah, I always felt like it was a strength of mine, did it, you know, all the time in my own time.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then um basically, like after college, I somehow got in the world of um digital entrepreneurship.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of my entryway into connecting with um with other writers.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I worked sort of behind the scenes for a couple different um digital entrepreneurs, like running their back end of stuff and you know, helping with emails and copy and you know, course creation and stuff like that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then just sort of being in that world, you know, a lot of those people end up writing books because they're platform builders and they have industry expertise and different things.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, so I ended up um connecting with um a good friend of mine um named Jeff Goines, who I ended up working with for a while.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was his assistant for um for a few years, and um he and I started ghostwriting books together.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um he I'm trying to think actually how it happened first.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, like um, you know, a lot of people in that circle, in that digital entrepreneurship circle, yeah, wanted to write books, but they aren't writers themselves, right?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't have a lot of um writing experience or they just don't have the time.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so um I started helping Jeff write books, doing research, helping with the rough draft, that kind of thing.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And what we discovered in um, like, I mean, I guess this isn't like a huge revelation, but in this sort of ghostwriting journey that we went on together, um we realized that all these people need book proposals.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like you can have a huge like platform and even a great idea, but you you need to sell somebody on it, right?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, so yeah, basically just out of necessity, um, I started writing book proposals um for ghostwriting clients.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and that's basically how it started.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, just through word of mouth and referrals, um, started getting more and more clients.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it really appealed to me because um a couple reasons.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, um, I did like I'm a creative, I like to write, you know, but I also have this other kind of more um marketing side of my brain that I really liked exercising when I was working with um, you know, like digital entrepreneurs in that capacity of like um positioning and doing research and kind of selling somebody on an idea, you know, and and a proposal is a cool combination of the art of it, right?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: The good writing, but then also the strategy of like when will this sell?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Where does this fit into the market?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that it kind of exercised both sides of my brain there.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing that I liked about it is um, you know, books are a really, really long project.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um and it just, you know, it feels fun to have a mix of um like proposals are are much shorter term, you know.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times you can knock one out in like two to three months if you're you know really making good progress.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so um it just feels feels nice to have some shorter term projects.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then of course, just strategically, um, a handful of my um proposal clients always, if they need a ghostwriter for their entire manuscript, you know, then I'm almost they're almost certain to come to me if I was able to sell, you know, write a sale and get a well-selling book proposal for them.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um so also it's just you know a good kind of pipeline for um full ghost clients.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and so that's pretty much what I do um on my own now.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk us through for those who who may not really be familiar with what's involved in a book proposal or what's included, can you walk us through why it's important to have one, even if you're independently publishing, even if you're self-publishing, but also what are the typical elements that are included in a good book proposal?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so book proposals are important exactly like you said, even if you are self-publishing, because all of the um all the pieces of a book proposal you will need to think through them whether you are doing the marketing and the writing or somebody else's.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, so um you can find like if you just Google like how to write a book proposal, like you'll get some very kind of surface level standard page one Google stuff that's not especially helpful, um, except they probably will get the like huge pieces right, you know, like you need a bio, you need um an overview, you know, what's this book about, um, you need a um a comparative title analysis, which is a list of, you know, five to ten books that are similar to yours, usually written in the um in the last five to ten years, um, where you sort of analyze what's um how your book is like them and how your book is unlike them.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that helps um agents and editors understand where your book fits into the marketplace.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um you need um some marketing and promotion info like this.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You might not find a lot of good info just on standard Googling, but you do need some sort of like um your platform, what are your numbers, social media, um, email list, that sort of thing.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do you plan on promoting it?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, especially, and this is all by the way, we're talking about nonfiction books.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, good point.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't mention that at the beginning, but I should have.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fiction is complete something completely um, yeah, something completely different.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a whole different process.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, so you need um some platform marketing stuff.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a whole, you know, a whole piece of it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: But agents and and editors like to know that you're gonna be an active partner in selling your book, you know, these days.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can't really just sit back and and let even if you sell it traditionally, you can't really just let back in or sit back and let the publisher do everything for you.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: You have to um be an active participant in that, and they want to know that they want to know you bring your own ideas to the table.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a marketing piece to it.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, table of contents, you know, what's in this book and a little um summary of each chapter.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then um the last big piece is sample material.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll need like one to two, I mean, two to three um sample chapters to give them an idea of um of what you know, how you write, how the book's gonna feel, how it's gonna sound.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the the thing that people like the biggest misconception about proposals, uh, whether you're you know traditionally selling it or not, is that or people just don't understand, I think, that it's a marketing document, first and foremost.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Again, even if you're not planning to send it out to others, you still need to create that plan for yourself, that like so you understand how you're selling it, how you're positioning it, where it fits into the market.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: All of that is really inform, you know, really important to figure out why you, why now, why this book.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and so I think people, you know, people are really attached and excited about their books, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels very personal and they want to tell you why it's gonna be amazing and how great it is, and how there's nothing else like it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I think um, yeah, getting a little bit out of that mentality and more into like how am I going to sell this?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Book publishing is a business like any other business, and you know, you need people to buy into your idea.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you are traditionally publishing it, you want the publisher to make money, they want to make money, agents and editors want to make money, and you have to convince them that this is gonna make them money as un you know, magical and mystical and fun as that sounds.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: It really is sometimes a bottom line thing.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, and so thinking through that, and the truth is that it will just make your book wildly more successful in the long run if you understand these things and you um set it up from the beginning so you write it um with that end in mind, you know what I mean?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and you know, I can attest to the importance of doing all these things because when you sit down and you think through who's the ideal reader, uh, what are the competing titles in the marketplace that your book's gonna be up against?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: When you think through uh a book description and when you put together your author bio, if you haven't done that already, the table of contents, all these things you're going to use no matter what direction you publish.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got my next book is uh called The Daily Writer, comes out in November.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically a year's worth of daily meditations for writers.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Before I really did anything with that book, I sat down and I did all these things, basically exactly what you've outlined, and it was so helpful because then it helped me have clarity on what is this project exactly, how is it different than XYZ other books and whatever.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would definitely encourage everybody to do this.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're gonna pursue a traditional publishing deal, of course, you have to do this.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, very few books get created in the traditional publishing world without some kind of proposal for sure.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right, yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Another huge piece is it direct, like especially um if you aren't selling it to a traditional publisher and you're just gonna sit down and write it yourself immediately after outlining this.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Letting that direct the writing is so helpful.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: It provides clarity, it you know, provide like because the best books have the marketing baked right into them, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not nearly as helpful as a process if you just sort of sit down and braindump 50,000 words into a book and then at the end try and figure out how to sell it, how to talk about it.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that is not nearly as effective as a process as sitting down outlining exactly what you want to say, where you're looking at your goal and everything, and writing it to that end.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it's much more effective process and you know, just easier and quicker too.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, totally, totally, totally.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny how many people do sit down and they just kind of dive into the book, the book writing process.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I'm just gonna start and I'm gonna pour out my thoughts and everything, and then you end up with this.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, you get like 10 or 15,000 words in and you just kind of lose steam.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've done that before.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: I can think of one book that I actually wrote like three or four thousand words on.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I spent like a year and a half on the outline and the research and stuff, and I got into writing and I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing with this book.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's still just sitting on my hard drive, you know.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was that's what that's a failed project that I learned a lot from, actually.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, and it's you know, it's okay.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some people just get inspired and they just want to kind of go for it, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's totally fine.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just if you, you know, most of my clients are um, they have some sort of uh um online business, they have some sort of a platform, you know, whether it's big or small, and they have real goals for their for their book.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um in that the book fits into some larger plan, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's around their business or around a message that they have or something.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And sitting down and brain dumping when um when that's when you don't really have a goal for it, that's not gonna serve your platform or your business.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, it's totally fine if you just you got something you need to get out of your system, right?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but if you're writing a book that fits into a larger plan of yours, you really need to think through all these aspects of it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think different books can have different goals.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um books are part of a larger ecosystem.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the book is very specifically designed to meet a certain objective or to sell a certain thing or a program or whatever.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Other books, like for example, I'm working with my dad on his Vietnam memoirs.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: He has no platform, he has no email list, he has no website, there's not any of those assets, and he's he has no intention of creating those things.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is simply a kind of a legacy kind of a project.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what the sales potential is.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't even thought those things through.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so this that book for me has a very different purpose than, say, like the Daily Writer book, which is designed to support the podcast and the membership community and all those kinds of things.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, what if somebody listening is in a position where they they have a book they want to write, but they don't have a platform or an email list or any of those things?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just kind of zooming out big picture.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um how should that person proceed if they have the impulse to write a book, but they it's not really supporting anything else or part of any kind of an ecosystem?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Should they go ahead and write it, or would it be better to you know work on building up an audience or whatever?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or should you just kind of dive in and and do it?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a really great question.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the first thing is probably to decide decide if you you know, if you want to just do this for you, and a lot of people do, like you said, and that's totally fine, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then I think that usually ends up being a different process than if you have some sort of larger business or platform building goals with it, you need to be a little bit more strategic.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just deciding, and also, you know, something that I think people don't do nearly enough of that might be really helpful in this situation that I might even start doing recently because I don't do a ton of my own personal writing, but I I have been thinking about doing more lately.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the first thing I'm going to do is start experimenting.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Some super low stakes.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this might not be a great fit for like your dad's memoirs, but even that I could, I could probably think of some examples.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, there's just so many ways to get something out there and see if it gets a reaction, if it resonates.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, even my even my clients who already have a decent platform, and they'll come to me and they'll have an idea and I'll ask them, like, have um have you, do you know if this is resonating with your with your audience yet?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they won't even have a a real feel for that.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll say, do a blog post on this.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Put, you know, write about it, even if you don't have a website, write about it on Medium.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a huge audience there that you have access to.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta, you know, Instagram, Facebook, like put a long post, LinkedIn, you know, write a long post, do a long Instagram story about it.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know, put a video on YouTube.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so many ways to start dabbling, even if just a few people see it and see, get some feedback, see what resonates.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a really good idea because I've had plenty of people either have an idea and when they start dabbling in it publicly, they realize, okay, nobody is, I'm not getting a lot of feedback about this.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe this isn't a great idea.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea, but it is feedback, right?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I have plenty of people who their book idea ends up becoming a thing they never thought it would be because they put some random thing out there and I got this huge reaction.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think Mark Mark Manson kind of has a story like that, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: His blog posts the F-word in it, you know.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like he had been blogging for a long time.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: He wrote that, it just went mega viral, which you know.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great time.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it's not a title I would have on any of my books, right?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to give him props for having a bold and it's an offensive title to a lot of people.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But but there is a there's a huge segment to where it's not offensive, but they resonate with the profanity in the book titles.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I sort of get annoyed by the whole there's like this huge trend with putting profanity in I mean on Netflix, it's in movie titles, TV shows, book titles.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's part of me that's really irritated by that.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like the parent side of me.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But there's the other side that's like that's pretty brilliant marketing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I can't really decide.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't I can't reconcile those two tides, those two sides of my brain when it comes to that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I definitely know it's yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I don't know if Mark like had an inclination that that would do as well as it did, but the lesson there is he just was throwing stuff out on his blog and his book ended up becoming the thing that people resonated with.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're if you're trying to find an idea, just start putting things out there.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I I have to, you know, I struggle with this too.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I I mostly ghostwrite.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um my the books I write are usually the ideas for other people, but um, but I, you know, I'm working on this as well.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't even like a month or two ago I was talking to you about expanding my business and you know, potentially getting into some other things.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, ah, kind of complaining a little bit about it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, well, what are you doing to kind of put yourself out there?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, um, nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should start doing more of that, which is what I tell everybody else to do.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, to answer your question, um, figure out if you want it to be something for money, marketable, or just serving a bigger goal other than self satisfaction or legacy.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Start experimenting, put something out there, even if it's small, see if it resonates.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and then I suppose.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: the next the next um step after that is start this plan the proposal or book book planning portion of it you know regardless of goals you need to do that um yeah and you can I mean Google that there are books there are people like me who do that um you know this is in the really preliminary stages but I my good friend Arielle who I know you know as well she and I are working on a book um kind of about this um that we're really excited about that will help people with this process um so yeah I mean I guess my point is like just start experimenting something low stakes and then figure out some goals around it.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's really really good advice.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact it kind of brought up something that has been I didn't realize this was kind of gnawing at me until kind of this conversation uh in a good way.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean is you know that there's something that I don't even know how to how to say this or if I can articulate it well but I I I guess what I mean is one of the downsides of being in the world that both you and I are in kind of the book development world ghostwriting client work book proposals marketing all that stuff one of the downsides is that sometimes the sometimes you feel like the creative aspect or the the fun part of it gets sucked out of it a little bit because you're so busy developing strategies and marketing plans and all those things and all those things are are really really important.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I love your suggestion about just putting something out there and I think there's a lot of value and there's something to be said for just putting something out there and seeing what happens.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah maybe it does well maybe it doesn't but you know for people who are listening who yeah you you kind of bump up against the marketing stuff a little bit and and there's a lot of writers who are like well but I don't want to get engaged in all that stuff.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I totally get that impulse I really do.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah at the same time we've got to have the artistic side of it where sometimes we just put stuff out there just to see what happens and oftentimes those are the things those crazy ideas that nobody had any expectations of those are the things that really have some traction because they have a lot of heart and soul behind them.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly yeah I was gonna say the thing that will always be true is that authenticity and good writing that leads to a real connection will always work.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: It just you know there you're right there is something to be said about having to actually get it in front of people you know there's some effort to that but in general if you you know writing that is authentic and says something real that connects with people it will always work it will always find place you know I mean I'm not super duper inside um I don't work in you know traditional I mean I I go straight of course um for traditional publishers but I'm not like an agent or editor on the inside but I know a lot of them and I was actually having a conversation recently with um a pretty big time um editor at a one of the big five um how's well big four now I suppose um how's yeah it's gonna be big one at some point big one oh god you're gonna own some company's gonna own everything it's probably probably will be Amazon right oh geez we're all gonna be working for Jeff Bezos um we're gonna get our stuff really fast that's the there you go yeah I'm gonna get my air fresheners like in two minutes once I click buy.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um yeah we were talking about some influencer who wanted to write a book and it's got a big platform and I made some comment about like yeah well of course you know they've got whatever half a million email subscribers of course they're gonna get a book deal and she's like yeah probably but you know that whole influencer no matter how big you are you can always get a book deal is a little bit bursting just because it has been proven now you know a lot of people have done that and again probably still will but there's been enough of those books that have actually flopped after the first week or just haven't generally been good and sold well over time that um you know it just again proves the point that good writing over the long haul those perennial sellers you know as um as Ryan Holiday would say that are just well written connect with people say something real there's always room for that I happen to be one of those like optimists who thinks if you just keep at it you will find your audience you know I've had so many clients I've had small time clients like who have I mean by small time I mean like you know maybe I had a client last year who had I think she had I don't know not even 500 email subscribers she had a little bit more Instagram she probably had like 2000 Instagram subscribers or um followers or whatever and um but she had a great message she was a good writer but most of all she just was unwilling to give up and so I was like your platform is small but I promise you she worked with me on her proposal I said I really believe that if you commit two years you email you know not like Matt not spamming people but like with a strategy you're willing to take as many rejections as it takes takes you're willing to take the feedback you're willing to shape it and and incorporate um the advice given to you by experts you will you will you know whatever your goal is get in get an agent publish your book find your audience I really like I don't know that's overly optimistic but I just never seen it fail people who are that committed and really want to write good things that connect with people I really think if you just give it enough time it will work out I totally agree it's the there's the people who are stubborn who just you're you're kind of relentless not in a bad way but you're persistent you keep at it and you have the same message over the long haul you know the the same you're communicating you know not 15 different things but you keep saying the same thing people are going to by the way that client she got a book deal fairly quickly and she's even like already talking about a next book with somebody and she does not have a big platform.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: She just was relentless and she's got book deals faster than a lot of some of my bigger clients um anyway I just wanted to wrap up that story for people I don't know I don't want to leave anybody hanging but I love talking about her as an example because you know it doesn't happen that way for everybody but people I think get a little disillusioned with um you know either memoir or nonfiction because they're like oh you know I have to have this big platform blah blah blah it helps but I still have a believer that with a good message and enough like grit you can you can do it.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I totally agree.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So as we kind of wrap this up and head into the home stretch of this I don't know why I used a baseball analogy I don't know anything about baseball but I do that sometimes do you ever do that like you're you're talking like you then you try to sound hip and you throw in like a a saying from something you don't know anything about or maybe that's just me.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: No totally just the other day somebody was like talking about how they they came back too early to something and I was like yeah you got to put your reps in first and I was like I don't even know what I mean by that and I don't even know I heard somebody else say it and it sounded cool.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So reps of what?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know but you got to get them in so uh I want to throw a question out there um this is something I've been thinking about a lot and I I don't know what to do with this idea but I'm curious if you think this theory is correct.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And here's here's kind of what I mean.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of us and this ties into our broader conversation a lot of us who are in this space of doing client work um whether it's freelancing ghostwriting edit editing whatever it is a lot of people seem content in those roles in the sense of basically what we say is you know I really want to support other people building their platform.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want to help other people with their writing or their books or whatever.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very much kind of this helping mentality when I kind of have a theory that many of us who are who are in these kinds of positions where we're helping other people with their writing and we're supporting them.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: I have a theory that sometimes we feel content or we we tell ourselves that we feel content in that role because we're a little bit of afraid we're a little bit afraid of playing full out and really putting ourselves out there.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of stay in the background we stay in the shadows and we say well I'm really happy helping other people build their thing when really what it comes down to is we're kind of close to the action but we're a little bit on the sidelines.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if I even really believe that that's totally true.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it seems I but I've talked to enough people and of course we're both kind of in the same space that I kind of get this sense of a lot of people who are doing this kinds of work of serving other people in the writing world um that we really want to do more of our own stuff but but we're just a little bit afraid to put ourselves out there.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's true or not do you do you see this at all I see it all the time and it feels very true to me personally like almost like too true like almost like convicted you know um yeah well I mean I'll tell you this just anecdotally I have never I know a lot of ghostwriters and I've never met one who doesn't have their own dreams of writing their own thing someday.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just it's a money thing you know is really what it comes into is we got to pay the bills and all that stuff.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know I just I've just been thinking about this a lot.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway sorry to interrupt you totally no I think you're right.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well and you know like we know it's almost like we know too much of like what it takes sometimes I think you know when I when my own writing or you know with the book I'm working on I know um I know how hard it can be to get a book deal.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I know the work that goes into it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of demotivating.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes exactly a little bit yes and so it's almost like you know it's easier if you're just you know a little bit naive to the process and how long and hard it can be um and yeah I mean you're totally right it's almost like this is putting it a little too harshly but it is almost like a cop out because you can I get to write about other people's ideas right like I don't have to come up with my own ideas.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really have to be that vulnerable I don't even have to try that hard because um you know I mean I have to obviously write a good book but when it comes to platform building and marketing I don't have to do any of that you know if it's if I'm just writing somebody else's book and and like you said it's a great way to pay the bills ghostwriting and this is a whole other conversation that I'm sure you've had with other people but like I mean ghostwriting is an incredibly great way to pay your bills it can be yeah yeah and so um I make really good money ghostwriting and it almost is a good way to convince myself that you know things are good.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why ask for more you know why put myself out there and try my own thing even though if I'm honest I certainly want that almost every single other ghostwriter I've ever talked to at different points in our um in our conversations it's come up that they have their own dreams of something um but it's harder right there's something at risk about that um so yeah I don't know I think yeah everything you said rings really true for me and um I don't know yeah it's almost like you're a little too close to it as a ghostwriter need to like get back to that beginner mind of you know trying yeah I don't know why I just I really I feel compelled especially the last years I've talked to a lot more people since I've been doing this business full time now for about a year a little over a year I guess and I just really feel compelled to encourage people who are in a serving role to people who are building their platforms or their books or whatever.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this would include podcast producers or anybody doing work that's assisting others who have the platform.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to encourage people to get their stuff out there and they almost always have really cool things to share.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's just maybe needing a push or some encouragement or somebody believing in them.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know we all need that right right yeah exactly um yeah I think that's great advice um I mean certainly for me and for others um yeah and and me too I mean I I think we all we all feel that tug between our own stuff and doing client work which I I love client work you know it can be great pays the bills we can learn a lot from it um but at the same time there's part of me that says we gotta we gotta reserve a little bit of our creative energy for our own stuff whatever whatever that looks like in our own yeah well you know I mean even I was thinking recently this is a little bit of um I think it's a little cliche and perhaps overdone but still incredibly true and you know your like sort of deathbed um mentality of like when you're you know when you're when you're done with all of this and you're at the at the end of your life you know like I love writing books.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Part of what I like about books is their everlasting you know kind of legacy um aspect of it that they're they're more or less around forever you know and um and I love that but and I and I do love contributing to that as a ghostwriter.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean oh one of the coolest things actually about writing books is even though I work with these people who have often very large platforms of very large impact they do all these things and if you talk to them the most important most vulnerable thing that they've ever done is write their book you know and so that's hear it all the time that's kind of a cool piece of it.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you know thinking about all these books that I'm putting out into the world and helping people put out into the world there is a little bit of an aspect of like yeah but they don't they're not mine you know they don't really have my name on them um which isn't a a reason not to do it but it again that death bed mentality of like well what what's really gonna matter what am I gonna be most proud of what regrets am I going to have um I do think that for me personally I think for a lot of creatives um that there's immense satisfaction in that helping mentality um but it's probably a disservice to us if we don't admit and then execute on the thing that we want to do in the world.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a I've got a good friend who's a ghostwriter and she has zero aspirations of doing her own books.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've asked her this before I'm like you're really really successful like don't you want to do your own books and she's like no I just everything that I want to say I just say through client books and I'm kind of jealous of that a little bit.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know because I'm like it would be so nice to just focus my attention on one singular thing.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: That would be so refreshing but I think but I think that's unusual honestly I think that's actually a gift that she has that she's wants to just totally focus on that and she serves clients really well and all that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: But for most of the rest of us we have to you know we kind of have to juggle those things but I guess in in the end that's what it means to be an entrepreneur on some level you're kind of juggling different things you're trying different things you're experimenting so you have to be kind of comfortable with this not always knowing how things are going to work out.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right and almost in that way she almost is um obviously she's really good at writing but she is yeah a true entrepreneur in that she just took a skill she has and figured out how to monetize it well when most of us I would say the majority of writers I know ghost writers especially um you know we do that we write well in somebody else's voice um but a lot of the reason why we get into writing is because we like expression and we want to be understood and we have you know some kind of a desire to um have this like back and forth with others and with an audience and there's it's it's hard to completely separate yourself from that you know inclination.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so um it is yeah I mean and that's for early you know for like baby ghostwriters that's a real learning process of kind of unlike extricating yourself from that a little bit you know like even still sometimes I'll read something in that you know of one of my clients and I'm like well there's Liz I gotta get gotta get Liz out of that a little bit you know like um but yeah I mean that feels I'm jealous of her too that feels um yeah that must be nice simpler anyway.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah a lot a lot simpler but um well sorry to take us down that rabbit trail just something I I know I I figure that you would resonate with as as anybody does who's doing client work freelancing ghostwriting editing whatever yeah I think it's a totally normal tension to be doing client work for money that you really enjoy and is incredibly rewarding and um and have your own kind of thing that you are either chipping away on or it's just been on the back burner for a long time.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's really common story.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of and I I first encountered this idea in a Stephen Pressfield book it might have been the War of Art or one of his other ones where he talks about how people have shadow careers.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning that some people go into fields that is that is adjacent to something they really love and something they actually that actually was their dream.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: But they went into something that felt safer and more secure for example um a film critic you know a person who can write about movies and be involved in the thing that they love but they're not actually taking any risk.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're just sort of giving their opinion or the teacher who went into that they the teacher who the English teacher who is getting to talk about all her favorite novels uh and writing stuff without actually publishing a novel you know those kinds of things and I relate to that because I was a college professor for many years.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when I read that man that like cut me deeply in the heart.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was like oh crap I've got to it was really convicting right you know and that that's that was part of the the impetus for me just wanting to start my own business I'm like okay I'm I'm kind of in a shadow career here a little bit.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to step out of the shadows and start putting myself out there more so yeah that's that's a whole other conversation but yeah well I heard this is perhaps a um more positive spin on on this something similar but I frequently think um have you ever listened to Neil Gaiman's he gave a commencement speech somewhere like if you just Google like Neil Gaiman commencement address you know it's really yeah it's in it's in a book called Make Good Art.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say I think it's called make good art or it's where that quote that's so that's like the popular takeaway from that um from that speech right make good art you know you're in pain make good art you're whatever make good art it's the answer to everything right and that's great advice but what I think about all the time from that speech is how he he does map out a little bit somewhere in it his trajectory to becoming a novelist and how he he um you know always wanted to be a writer but couldn't or you know didn't just jump to being a novelist.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: So he was always only ever just taking the next step that got him closer.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: So he you know I'm gonna butcher it but basically like he graduated from college and he became a journalist.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so was he writing novels and fantasy no but he was writing and then the next thing was right whatever something a little bit closer and that and when I look back at my career it's been like that too you know a lot of people ask me I was actually doing a um ghostwriting panel with the writer's digest or I can't remember some group a couple months ago and they were um you know asking about how to become a ghostwriter and again like kind of how we started out this conversation it's a little bit hard to give advice on because it can be winding and everybody's path is different.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the best things is like Neil Gaiman said, you just find the next right closest thing, you know you take that step like for me it was like an author who needed an assistant you know like okay I'll do that.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not writing but I'm fairly close to the writing world.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay now somebody needs like you know a book proposal I I'll take a step you know what I mean it's just like you keep taking a step that gets you closer and closer.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: But back to your point about shadow professions or jobs I think it probably is tempting somewhere along that path when you find yourself fairly close and safe and perhaps even well paid to just hang out there and stop continuing to take that next step that gets you where you ultimately want to go, you know?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy to do.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I I totally get it.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really I completely understand it.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you get to be a certain age like I'll be 50 in three years you know that was a weird way to say that I'm 47.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I But anyway, I I you know, I think when you get to a certain age in life, you kind of just get tired and you're like, I just want something that's stable and secure, and I just want to take a walk in the woods, you know, or go get ice cream with my kids or something.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I totally get it, but but still there's this this impulse of is there something that you want to accomplish?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, just take whatever the next step is to doing it, just like you're talking about, instead of just kind of being content and and staying settled in your life.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be um, you know, necessarily big or dramatic.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it almost will never be, you know, if you want to be a ghostwriter, but you don't have any experience yet, you probably can't apply for a ghostwriter job and just become a ghostwriter.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you can, you know, I don't know, start your own blog and start writing, find a little gig on Fiverr and get a little bit of experience.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Start emailing, you know, accomplished writers and see if they need help.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, there are all kinds of little steps you can take that get you a little bit closer to your goal, and you just keep taking those, you know, and um exactly.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but like you said, don't it don't get too uh too comfortable, I suppose, when you get close but not quite there.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this has been fun, Liz.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I could talk to you for hours about all this stuff, uh, because we're kind of in the same world and and I understand where you're coming from with all this, and uh, we know a lot of the same people and all that.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for taking time to talk about proposals and shadow careers and freelancing and writing and all the things.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a blast.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, where can people find out uh more about you online as well as your services?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my business and website is wellwrittenco.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just wellwrittenco.com.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can get there for everything I do.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh that's pretty much it.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on Instagram.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really do social media other than Instagram, it's just Liz underscore morrow.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's pretty much it.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks again.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness and um just honesty and authenticity.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this was really fun and I appreciate it.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, Kent.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation, and I also hope that you take to heart what Liz had to say in this interview, which is basically make sure to do a book proposal and she laid out how to do it and all the things that are included in that.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: I know that this is an easy thing to skip.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, trust me, I've been there and I've done that.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you're a if you're a writer who wants to just kind of get to the writing and you don't want to have to mess with the outlining and the book proposal stuff because that seems like a waste of time.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Trust me, the more time that you spend on crafting a great proposal and outlining your book and in the planning stages, the the better the process is going to go for you.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here I'm specifically talking about nonfiction books, which is what probably the majority of my listeners are focusing on.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not always necessarily, but probably most of you, even if you're doing fiction, you're also thinking about nonfiction as well.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: So take the time to do a good book proposal.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really does save a lot of time.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to thank Liz for taking the time out to be a guest on this episode and for shedding some light on this really, really critical topic for us as writers.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And also thank you for listening.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: As I often say, I really appreciate your time.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's lots of other things you could be listening to, so you spending time with me here on this podcast uh really does mean the world to me.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before I close up shop on this episode, I want to let you know that today's episode is brought to you by the new book, The Faith of Elvis, a story only a brother can tell.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote this book with Billy Stanley, Elvis Presley's stepbrother, to share the untold story of Elvis' deep Christian faith.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in this book, you're going to hear never before published stories about Elvis' generosity, how he relied on his faith in tough times, and what it was like for Billy to grow up with Elvis as an older brother.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was a huge privilege for me to be involved in this project.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: And as people have read advanced reader copies of this book, and as they have shared with me their experience with it, it's been really, really super positive.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not just saying that to kind of um you know toot my own horn, so to speak, but legitimately, people have said they really enjoyed this book.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fast, quick read full of really engaging stories, and it just makes them feel good after they have read it.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I trust that you're gonna have the same experience as well.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you love Elvis, if you love music, if you love great storytelling, or you just want to deepen your personal faith, which is a great goal in itself, I promise that you're gonna love The Faith of Elvis.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: The book releases on October the 4th.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a Tuesday, and you can pre-order the book at all the major retailers, including Amazon, and even download a free chapter via the link in the show notes.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure and check that out.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're really gonna enjoy this book.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: And with that said, thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.