Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1238 - Punished by Rewards With Alfie Kohn

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#1238 - Punished by Rewards With Alfie Kohn · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 1: poor parent who just want's answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now.
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  Speaker 1: Hello, I'm doctor Justin Colson here with my wife and
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  Speaker 1: co host, missus Happy Families, Kietie. Thank you for being here.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you anyway.
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  Speaker 1: We're the parents of six kids. I've written six books
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  Speaker 1: about raising happy families, and today on the podcast, something
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  Speaker 1: pretty big.
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  Speaker 3: I'm pretty excited about our interview today. We're going to
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  Speaker 3: talk to someone who's been on Oprah. Do you know
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  Speaker 3: how big a deal that is?
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  Speaker 1: I haven't been on Oprah, so I don't know what's
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  Speaker 1: a big deal. I'd love to be on OPRAH. That
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  Speaker 1: would be I would.
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  Speaker 3: Love you to be on Oprah too. That means I
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  Speaker 3: might actually get to meet her. Time magazine has described
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  Speaker 3: him as being perhaps the country's most outspoken critic on
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  Speaker 3: education's fixation with grades and test scores, and Justin, he
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  Speaker 3: probably is one of the biggest influences on you of
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  Speaker 3: any author. I know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. If I was to put a list
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  Speaker 1: together of people that I would love to interview for
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  Speaker 1: this podcast, this guy would be very told the list,
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  Speaker 1: and we've got him.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm pretty exciting.
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  Speaker 1: I'm ecstatic Alfie Kohane is the name of the person
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  Speaker 1: we're speaking to in just a sec He's a very
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  Speaker 1: very well known author and writer around parenting and education
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  Speaker 1: in those kinds of areas. In nineteen ninety three, Alfie
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  Speaker 1: wrote a book that was called Punished by Rewards, and
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  Speaker 1: that was pretty much the central reason that I left
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  Speaker 1: my radio career and went back to school to study psychology.
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  Speaker 1: Alfie is the reason that I am, in many ways,
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  Speaker 1: who I am today. His influence has been far reaching,
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  Speaker 1: and he's affected not just me, but our family and
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  Speaker 1: obviously thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, if not
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  Speaker 1: millions of parents around the globe. So so excited to
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  Speaker 1: be able to talk to Alfie today.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I actually remember when you brought that book
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  Speaker 3: home and you wanted me to read it. It's not
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  Speaker 3: a book for the fainthearted. It was a really, really
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  Speaker 3: intense book. But I remember how excited you were about
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  Speaker 3: all of the concepts you were learning, and specifically actually
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  Speaker 3: having an opportunity to talk to Alfie on the phone
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  Speaker 3: for the first time. I remember that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, not only did I talk to him, but then
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  Speaker 1: a few years later he was in Australia, and I
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  Speaker 1: got to hang out with him. In fact, I drove
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  Speaker 1: him from the central coast of New South Wales down
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  Speaker 1: to Sydney because he needed transport, and I was the
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  Speaker 1: one that contacted the organizers and said, what do you need?
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  Speaker 1: How can I help? And they said, oh, we really
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  Speaker 1: need someone to take him for a drive. I said
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  Speaker 1: I can do that. So that was pretty epic. And Alfie,
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  Speaker 1: we've got you here right now, Alfie, can.
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  Speaker 3: I start Hubert? I'd love to ask you a question
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  Speaker 3: when we think about punishment and discipline together, why is
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  Speaker 3: punishment such a lousy way to discipline our kids?
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  Speaker 2: Because punishment teaches power, It undermines the possibility of moral
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  Speaker 2: growth in children. If I say to kids, do this,
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  Speaker 2: or here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which
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  Speaker 2: is what punishment is, and by the way, you can
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  Speaker 2: call it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says
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  Speaker 2: to kids, do this or here's what I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: do to you. Then kids are first of all thinking
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  Speaker 2: only about themselves how do I avoid the punishment, never
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  Speaker 2: about the impact of their actions on others. All use
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  Speaker 2: of consequences punishment focuses kids narrowly on self interest, and secondly,
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  Speaker 2: what they have modeled for them is that someone who
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  Speaker 2: has more power than they do can coerce them into
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  Speaker 2: doing whatever or she wants. And that's the main lesson
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  Speaker 2: that kids learn. Sometimes they take it out on others
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  Speaker 2: that very same day when they come across peers who
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  Speaker 2: have less power than they do. So punishment is a
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  Speaker 2: way of doing things to children, and the only way
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  Speaker 2: we help kids become good people is by working with them.
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  Speaker 2: To put it slightly differently, the only thing you can
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  Speaker 2: ever get from any kind of punishment, from forceable isolation
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  Speaker 2: which is euphemistically called time out, to withdrawal of privileges
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  Speaker 2: or yelling, spanking, whatever it is, the only thing you
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  Speaker 2: can ever get is temporary compliance at an enormous cost.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that reminds me of a story that I love
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  Speaker 1: to tell. When I was about fifteen years old, I
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  Speaker 1: was in the kitchen. My little sister was driving me
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  Speaker 1: up the wall, and I said a word that we're
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  Speaker 1: not supposed to use in my family. You know, we
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  Speaker 1: had some very strict rules around the kind of language
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  Speaker 1: we use. And I called my sister a stupid idiot.
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  Speaker 1: I said something like, oh, shut up, your stupid idiot,
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  Speaker 1: My mom heard and came dashing into the kitchen and said, justin,
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  Speaker 1: we don't speak like that in this house. You need
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  Speaker 1: to say sorry to your sister right now. And so
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  Speaker 1: here's a false apology. So I'm obviously being dishonest when
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  Speaker 1: I apologize. But I looked at my sister and I said,
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  Speaker 1: to a fine Carena, I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot,
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  Speaker 1: which obviously made a lot of sense to my fifteen
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  Speaker 1: year old brain, but it infuriated my mum, who, with
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  Speaker 1: the best of intentions, said, you go to your room
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  Speaker 1: right now and you think about what you just said.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, Alfie, I went, I had.
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  Speaker 2: A child in history, ever often in a constructive way,
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  Speaker 2: after being forcibly isolated. What you're thinking about in that
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  Speaker 2: room is how unfair it is that you're there, how
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  Speaker 2: you're misunderstood, and how you're going to get back at
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  Speaker 2: your sister when your mother isn't looking. Never can you
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  Speaker 2: get a response by simply making kids unhappy, by taking
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  Speaker 2: things away from them or putting them in their rooms
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  Speaker 2: or or whatever, and forced apologies, Well, that teaches kids
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  Speaker 2: to lie. Yeah, what all say things that they don't believe?
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  Speaker 1: What I was going to say is that I went
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  Speaker 1: to my room. I sat on my bed, and I
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  Speaker 1: thought carefully about how I was an impediment to my
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  Speaker 1: family's happiness, and I resolved to be a bit of human.
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  Speaker 1: But I didn't really I did exactly what you said.
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  Speaker 1: I was furious about my mom and how she didn't
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  Speaker 1: understand me. It really ruptured my relationship in that moment, right,
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  Speaker 1: and boy boy, I couldn't wait to get back at
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  Speaker 1: my sister when mom wasn't watching.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And the alternative to anticipate maybe where you're going
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  Speaker 2: next and said, no, we have very limited time that
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  Speaker 2: is offered to many parents. Instead of using sticks, use tarrots.
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  Speaker 2: Instead of controlling them by making them suffer if they
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  Speaker 2: don't do what you want, give them a doggy biscuit
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  Speaker 2: if they do do what you want. But rewards are
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  Speaker 2: just the flip side of punishment. So if I threaten
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  Speaker 2: to punish a kid, I'm saying, do this, here's what
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to do to you. If I reward children
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  Speaker 2: or offer to reward them, I'm saying, do this and
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  Speaker 2: you'll get that. So in the first case with punishment,
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  Speaker 2: kids come to ask the question, what do they want
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  Speaker 2: me to do? And what happens to me if I
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  Speaker 2: don't do it? If you offer a reward for good behavior,
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  Speaker 2: which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous or thoughtful, but
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  Speaker 2: then the question kids come to ask is what do
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  Speaker 2: they want me to do and what do I get
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  Speaker 2: for doing it? And so the research is very clear
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  Speaker 2: that rewards like punishments, can only get temporary compliance, and
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  Speaker 2: in both cases they retard moral and social and intellectual development.
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  Speaker 2: Because we have hundreds of studies showing that the more
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  Speaker 2: you reward people for doing something, the more they tend
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  Speaker 2: to lose interest in whatever they had to do to
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  Speaker 2: get the reward. So, on the one hand, if you
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  Speaker 2: want to destroy children's interest in reading, for example, you
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  Speaker 2: would offer a prize for reading a book because now
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  Speaker 2: you've taught them that reading is something you would never
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  Speaker 2: want to do, and it becomes devalued. They say, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, if this was so much fun, they wouldn't
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  Speaker 2: have to bribe me to do it. But the other
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  Speaker 2: reason that it devalues that that kids lose interest in
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  Speaker 2: whatever they're rewarded for doing is because it's control. If
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  Speaker 2: I punish a kid for doing something, it's obvious I'm controllingum.
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  Speaker 2: But what a lot of parents don't realize is if
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  Speaker 2: they reward kids, and that includes verbal rewards good job,
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  Speaker 2: I really like theau dot dot dot. This is just
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  Speaker 2: a verbal doggie biscuit and all rewards are just sugar
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  Speaker 2: coated control, and kids don't like being controlled. So we
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  Speaker 2: have research that shows that almost anything that kids are
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  Speaker 2: rewarded for doing becomes less appealing to them. They have
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  Speaker 2: less commitment to it over the long haul of Several
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  Speaker 2: studies have shown a couple of just in the last
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  Speaker 2: few years that children who are frequently rewarded or praised
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  Speaker 2: by their parents are less generous and helpful than other kids,
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  Speaker 2: and the effect is most pronounced if they're rewarded or
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  Speaker 2: praised for being helpful. So you are undermining with the
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  Speaker 2: use of any kind of reward, including praise or punishment,
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  Speaker 2: including time out. The only alternatives to this are not
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  Speaker 2: quite so east need to script or to have a
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  Speaker 2: one size fits all when you do this, when your
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  Speaker 2: kid does this, you should do that. So it's frustrating
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  Speaker 2: because you actually have to think, as opposed to being
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  Speaker 2: scripted out by a parenting expert. But rewards and punishments
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  Speaker 2: always as they say, of doing things to children forms
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  Speaker 2: of control. What helps us to become the best parents
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  Speaker 2: we can is to figure out ways of working with
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  Speaker 2: them to solve problems.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, what about those parents who would say, but
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  Speaker 3: I just can't get my kids to do anything without
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  Speaker 3: a reward. You know, those parents who are using reward
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  Speaker 3: charts or other ways of coercing the children to do
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  Speaker 3: the household chores. Some parents would actually say that the
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  Speaker 3: kids are more motivated by using them.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And the question is not how do we motivate kids?
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  Speaker 2: The question is how are kids motivated. For the last
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  Speaker 2: few decades, psychologists have helped us understand that there are
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  Speaker 2: different kinds of motivation, and the kind matters more than
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  Speaker 2: the amount. Specifically, psychologists talk about the difference between intrinsic motivation,
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  Speaker 2: which means you do something because you want to do it,
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  Speaker 2: because you get a kick out of it, it's satisfying,
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  Speaker 2: and extrinsic motivation, which is where you do it to
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  Speaker 2: avoid a punishment or to get a reward. And what
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  Speaker 2: we know from research as well as experience, is that
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  Speaker 2: the two tend to be inversely related. So the child
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  Speaker 2: who seems quote motivated to do it in order to
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  Speaker 2: get the gold star, the ice cream call, and the
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  Speaker 2: good job whatever has more extrinsic motivation, and as a
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  Speaker 2: direct result, is now less committed to being a helpful person,
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  Speaker 2: less interested in whether his actions around the house are
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  Speaker 2: making other people feel good. So I guess when I
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  Speaker 2: see the When parents say you know they work, I
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  Speaker 2: always ask work to do? What? What's your goal? You
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  Speaker 2: can get mindless obedience in the short run if the
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  Speaker 2: reward is juicy enough or the punishment is awful enough.
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  Speaker 2: What you can never get is a child who is happy,
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  Speaker 2: more ethical, more compassionate, or caring, more of an independent thinker,
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  Speaker 2: all of the things we parents want in the long
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  Speaker 2: run for our goal. Rewards like star charts and stickers
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  Speaker 2: in the life actually get in the way of those
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  Speaker 2: more ambitious, meaningful, long term goals.
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  Speaker 1: If I'm not going to use punishments and I'm not
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  Speaker 1: going to use rewards, what does Alfie Kohne and the
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  Speaker 1: research suggest would be the best way to respond to
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  Speaker 1: this child who is just driving me up the wall?
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  Speaker 2: Talk less, ask more. There's no one size fits all solution.
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  Speaker 2: As I indicated before, everything will depend on what's going
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  Speaker 2: on in this child's environment and in this child's head.
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  Speaker 2: Five different kids who are seen as difficult or troubling
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  Speaker 2: or making us go crazy and pushing our buttons, maybe
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  Speaker 2: doing it for five completely different reasons, and each of
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  Speaker 2: those reasons calls for a different course of action. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: this is the thing when I wrote my book Unconditional Parenting,
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  Speaker 2: which is get specifically to looking at parenting punished by rewards,
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  Speaker 2: also looks at schools and workplaces as well as families.
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  Speaker 2: But I had to end the working with section the
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  Speaker 2: what do we do instead? You know, break the bad
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  Speaker 2: news that I'm not going to give you a magic formula.
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  Speaker 2: If a child is acting this way rolling the eyes,
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  Speaker 2: because frankly we're saying stuff that deserves an eye rolling,
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  Speaker 2: then the problem is not the kid. The problem is
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  Speaker 2: with what we have been doing that we need to rethink,
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  Speaker 2: and we need to come to the child and say
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  Speaker 2: I'm really frustrated sometimes by your attitude here, and I
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  Speaker 2: want to hear where it's coming from. And then you
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  Speaker 2: have to listen for the answer without getting defensive or huffy.
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  Speaker 2: And then when there's a particular problem, like we want
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  Speaker 2: to get to the house clean, I don't know about
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  Speaker 2: using a different technique to get the kids room clean.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's the kid's room, isn't it. Why would
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  Speaker 2: the kid have to keep it up to our standards?
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  Speaker 2: In other words, the premise of the question here ought
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  Speaker 2: to be called into question. Don't ask how do I
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  Speaker 2: get the kid to do X? If I can't use
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  Speaker 2: punishments and rewards, begin by asking whether X really needs
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  Speaker 2: to be done. But if we're convinced it does, like
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  Speaker 2: everybody should pitch in with stuff around dinner, then I
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  Speaker 2: would be asking the child, you know what's the problem here?
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  Speaker 2: What can be done? What do you think you can
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  Speaker 2: do in order to help help things go smoothly whenever possible.
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  Speaker 2: Kids learn to make good decisions by making decisions, not
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  Speaker 2: by following directions, and so we end up getting kids
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  Speaker 2: who are happier to participate because they feel trusted and
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  Speaker 2: respected as a result of our asking about their experience
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  Speaker 2: and responding appropriately, rather than mindlessly and unilaterally trying to
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  Speaker 2: impose our demands and agenda on them.
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  Speaker 1: It sounds like something that I share with parents is
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  Speaker 1: what I call the three ease of effective discipline. And
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  Speaker 1: when I say discipline, I mean discipline is teaching and
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  Speaker 1: guiding and instructing. It's helping our children to internalize those
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  Speaker 1: things that matter most. So I talk about how we
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  Speaker 1: need to explore their world, explore why they're struggling with
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  Speaker 1: this question that we've asked, which helps us to understand
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  Speaker 1: whether it was a good question or a good behavior
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  Speaker 1: or requested in the first place. And then we explain
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  Speaker 1: what our rationale is so that they can at least
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  Speaker 1: see what our perspective is, and then we empower them
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  Speaker 1: to work together with us to find a solution that's
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: mutually agreeable. It sounds to me like that's the kind
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  Speaker 1: of process that you're describing.
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  Speaker 2: Uh yes, but with not to throw away, but to
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  Speaker 2: really linger on the problem on that one ask. In fact,
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  Speaker 2: that a lot of times when kids don't do what
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  Speaker 2: we've told them, the problem is with what we've told them,
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  Speaker 2: and so we have to begin by being willing to
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  Speaker 2: question the premise, whether it's what we're asking of them
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  Speaker 2: is reasonable, whether it's developmentally appropriate, and so on, and
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  Speaker 2: then to keep checking back with them if let them
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  Speaker 2: propose a solution, and then let's talk about it later
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  Speaker 2: to see how it's going.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like effective exploration is the central pillar there. Alfie,
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  Speaker 1: this has just been such an awesome conversation. Thank you
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  Speaker 1: so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: speaking about the problems of punishment and rewards being used
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: as a way to get our kids to do what
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: we want them to do.
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  Speaker 3: I reckon we need to get Alfie backy In Justin,
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  Speaker 3: that was just such a worthwhile conversation. Jack.
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  Speaker 2: We could have you back, Elphie sure be happy to
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  Speaker 2: do it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: For listening to the podcast. If you'd like more info
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: about how we can make your family happier, please jump
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: on to our website, happy families dot com dot au.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Find us on Instagram and on Facebook. Doctor Justin Coulson's
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Happy Families