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When Men Are Betrayed with Adam Nisenson, LMFT, CSAT · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
0:04
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
0:07
Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
0:11
Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this
0:14
Speaker 1: show five four, three, two and one. Our folks, welcome
0:19
Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have us. My
0:21
Speaker 1: guest today, Adam Nissansen Adam, Welcome, Thanks, glad to be here,
0:26
Speaker 1: all right, awesome. Adam, known as a Portrayal Shrink, is
0:30
Speaker 1: a licensed marriage and Family therapist and certified sex edition
0:34
Speaker 1: therapist who specializes in helping men heal from partner betrayal trauma.
0:39
Speaker 1: Drawing on both his clinical training and his own experience
0:42
Speaker 1: of infidelity and betrayal, Adam created a male focused framework
0:45
Speaker 1: for recovery that blends empathy with practical understanding of the emotional, psychological,
0:51
Speaker 1: and identity challenges men face after betrayal. He's the author
0:55
Speaker 1: of A Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal, Overcoming the pain
0:59
Speaker 1: and repercussions of treating partner, and he offers coaching courses,
1:02
Speaker 1: support groups, and educational resources. Tell Her to Men navigating shame,
1:07
Speaker 1: loss and rebuilding. His mission is to ensure that no
1:11
Speaker 1: man is to process betrayal alone and to support profound
1:15
Speaker 1: growth and resilience beyond pain. All right, Adam, obviously, just
1:20
Speaker 1: a little bit about you before we go and share
1:22
Speaker 1: with our listeners where you're from originally and where you
1:24
Speaker 1: are currently, and then we'll dive in.
1:26
Speaker 2: Dive in. Well, I'm originally a Texan and actually I
1:32
Speaker 2: live I split time now between Texas, between Houston and
1:35
Speaker 2: Salt Lake City. Okay, two extremes for sure.
1:40
Speaker 1: All right, all right, so let's dive in here. How
1:43
Speaker 1: the hell did this start for you?
1:44
Speaker 2: You know, that's how the hell exactly? Well, it really
1:49
Speaker 2: started a long time ago when my now ex wife
1:52
Speaker 2: had an affair. She had multiple emotional and then she
1:56
Speaker 2: had a big physical affair and my whole life and
2:00
Speaker 2: marriage fell apart. And at that same time, I was
2:05
Speaker 2: going back to school to be a therapist. This is
2:07
Speaker 2: a second career for me, and I always was fascinated
2:10
Speaker 2: by psychology, and as I was going through that program,
2:14
Speaker 2: and then after I graduated and was doing my internships
2:17
Speaker 2: and my associate work, I started noticing a big need
2:23
Speaker 2: around betrayal trauma for men and in my practice, I
2:27
Speaker 2: only work with men, and guys would start admitting to me,
2:31
Speaker 2: you know, six months a year after working with me,
2:33
Speaker 2: that they were cheated on in different ways and there
2:36
Speaker 2: was so much shame. And then I started it just
2:38
Speaker 2: brought it all back, right. I was like, damn, I'm
2:41
Speaker 2: right back in that same place I was in. And
2:44
Speaker 2: I realized there was no resources for men, and I
2:47
Speaker 2: know when I went through it, there was nothing out there.
2:51
Speaker 2: And as I dug more into it and I had
2:53
Speaker 2: more of my own connections, I realized, like the therapy world,
2:57
Speaker 2: the psychology world has really been missing this much needed
3:01
Speaker 2: demographic that needs help. And I decided I was going
3:04
Speaker 2: to write my book and it was actually it's actually
3:06
Speaker 2: the first book written four men Navigating Partner Betrayal. That's
3:11
Speaker 2: how the hell I got here.
3:13
Speaker 1: All right, so you were married. How long were you
3:16
Speaker 1: married when this, when this happened, when this happened.
3:18
Speaker 2: Oh so bad with numbers, I want to say it
3:21
Speaker 2: was probably seventeen years. No, maybe not even quite that much, but.
3:28
Speaker 1: She was even married. Was seventeen years?
3:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, there, maybe it was a little bit less than that.
3:32
Speaker 2: There was a history of I would say questionable things,
3:37
Speaker 2: right and so it was just a pattern in the
3:40
Speaker 2: marriage and and also as a guy. One of the
3:43
Speaker 2: things I've learned doing this work, men tend to just
3:46
Speaker 2: put their heads down, I'm going to move on, I'm
3:49
Speaker 2: going to ignore it, right because I don't I don't
3:52
Speaker 2: want to be uncomfortable. And I did a lot of that.
3:55
Speaker 2: So so in some ways I allowed it to continue,
3:57
Speaker 2: if you will.
3:59
Speaker 1: So this interesting. There were questionable, questionable behaviors, and you.
4:07
Speaker 2: Just yeah, we would talk about it, but you know,
4:14
Speaker 2: I didn't have the tools, and again there was nothing
4:16
Speaker 2: like like what are boundaries and what is and what
4:19
Speaker 2: should this look like? And how do I feel safe?
4:22
Speaker 2: Like none of those things wherever necessarily on my radar? Right,
4:26
Speaker 2: And the other part is one of the things for
4:29
Speaker 2: men navigating betrayal is it carries so much shame, right,
4:33
Speaker 2: And that's so hard and that within itself, right, I
4:36
Speaker 2: I'd like to say that like shame is often so unspeakable, right,
4:41
Speaker 2: we don't want to talk about it. But here's the catch.
4:44
Speaker 2: If you don't talk about it, you can't heal it,
4:46
Speaker 2: you can't look at it, you can't figure it out.
4:48
Speaker 2: So and we just stay in that loop, if you will,
4:51
Speaker 2: that shame loop.
4:52
Speaker 1: So so at what point did you confront your ex wife?
4:58
Speaker 2: No, what I mean, ultimately she had she had a
5:04
Speaker 2: full I would call it a full on affair and
5:06
Speaker 2: fell for the other person and didn't really want to
5:09
Speaker 2: do the work, I would say, and we just went,
5:13
Speaker 2: you know, drifted apart, like it just right if the
5:16
Speaker 2: other that's the other thing. If both people don't want
5:19
Speaker 2: to do the work, it's you can't reconcile. That just
5:23
Speaker 2: doesn't right. You have to have both people. So so
5:26
Speaker 2: we just didn't have that. And you know, my work
5:29
Speaker 2: is really not not as much about like that what
5:33
Speaker 2: happened to me, although that is right. What's different for
5:36
Speaker 2: me as a man? I've been there, so I understand
5:39
Speaker 2: and then I'm a play.
5:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just trying to I'm just trying to learn
5:42
Speaker 1: more about your whole process. What was going on for you?
5:46
Speaker 1: I mean, hang on, hang on a second. So while
5:49
Speaker 1: this was happening, were you in school to become a therapist?
5:54
Speaker 2: Yes, part you were, Yeah, I was out and then right,
5:59
Speaker 2: you know, of the you know, anyone that's in a
6:02
Speaker 2: committed relationship out there also understands right relationships do this
6:06
Speaker 2: ebb and flow and sometimes the about doesn't ever write
6:11
Speaker 2: and and it takes a long time, and then one
6:13
Speaker 2: day you're like, damn, I can't even see them over there, right,
6:17
Speaker 2: And and that's also what a lot of we just
6:20
Speaker 2: because she didn't want to do the work, and we
6:23
Speaker 2: just started drifting further and further apart. So, okay, you know,
6:27
Speaker 2: but my big but let me say this guy real quick,
6:30
Speaker 2: The biggest takeaway for me on that journey was the isolation,
6:35
Speaker 2: the loneliness, the belief that no one else would understand,
6:41
Speaker 2: you know, and then that spun so that that was
6:43
Speaker 2: really the hardest part, and then towards the end of
6:47
Speaker 2: the marriage, even believing am I even worthy of love? Right?
6:50
Speaker 2: Or will this happen again? Or what was my part?
6:54
Speaker 2: Or what? You know? All those things and being alone
6:57
Speaker 2: in that is really a hard place to be for
6:59
Speaker 2: a person.
7:01
Speaker 1: So, yeah, those are those are awesome questions because it
7:08
Speaker 1: takes two Yeah, right, it's right. So while this was
7:13
Speaker 1: going on, you said isolation, You weren't talking about this
7:16
Speaker 1: with anyone, or were you?
7:18
Speaker 2: I was, you know, I had I was lucky in
7:21
Speaker 2: the sense I was in a men's group and I
7:25
Speaker 2: had those guys in that group. We were already for
7:28
Speaker 2: years together and very vulnerable. So I was lucky in
7:32
Speaker 2: the sense that I had support. Now did they know
7:36
Speaker 2: what to really do or really how to help me know?
7:39
Speaker 2: Did they hold space? Were they there for me? Did
7:42
Speaker 2: they chuck on me a lot? Were they worried? Yes,
7:45
Speaker 2: one hundred percent. But like you know, we even my
7:47
Speaker 2: ex and I we went to some different therapy options,
7:52
Speaker 2: and it was like I felt, you know, like I
7:55
Speaker 2: remember one of our sessions this place we went. The therapist
8:00
Speaker 2: started questioning me like it was my fault and what
8:02
Speaker 2: are you not doing? And I was like, whoa, Like,
8:06
Speaker 2: of course everyone has a part in it. But that's
8:09
Speaker 2: like I knew, like too soon, Like that's not like
8:13
Speaker 2: your way, right, And so I was really One of
8:16
Speaker 2: the other things I really learned on my journey and
8:19
Speaker 2: that I do in my work today is that I
8:22
Speaker 2: don't think therapists are betrayal coaches or whatever know necessarily
8:27
Speaker 2: how to work with men in the sense of their shame,
8:31
Speaker 2: their ego wound and their anger. And I think anger
8:34
Speaker 2: scares a lot of people, right men we've been taught
8:37
Speaker 2: can't be angry, you don't show your anger. But I
8:40
Speaker 2: got to tell you when you're cheated on, it's hard
8:42
Speaker 2: not to. I mean, anger is usually where we want
8:45
Speaker 2: to lead with and then we're told we can't do that,
8:48
Speaker 2: and so then we repress it. So yeah, that was
8:52
Speaker 2: more of my journey there.
8:54
Speaker 1: So things unfold. You're in what graduate school, you're becoming
9:01
Speaker 1: a therapist. At what point do you start working and
9:04
Speaker 1: then say I want to start this book. Let's talk
9:08
Speaker 1: about it?
9:08
Speaker 2: Was it was years yeah, it was years later, you know. Yeah,
9:12
Speaker 2: I mean I was, you know, doing my work, and
9:15
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a c SET, which is a certified
9:17
Speaker 2: sex addiction therapist, which interestingly enough, part of getting that certification,
9:25
Speaker 2: like like if there's four modules if you will or
9:29
Speaker 2: or you know, trainings you go to, one of them
9:31
Speaker 2: is around betrayal because betrayal is very common in sex
9:35
Speaker 2: addiction and stuff like that. And and not everyone that
9:38
Speaker 2: cheats is a sex addict. I want to say that,
9:40
Speaker 2: of course. But so I was kind of already in
9:43
Speaker 2: that arena some and and just through the work I
9:47
Speaker 2: was doing right and you know, I I don't know
9:51
Speaker 2: this sounds weird enough, but I always felt like I
9:54
Speaker 2: had some kind of like purpose, right, and and you know,
9:59
Speaker 2: like what the joke like everyone has a book in
10:01
Speaker 2: them if you will that kind of saying. It was
10:04
Speaker 2: kind of like it just kept showing up in my
10:07
Speaker 2: in my world, and I had a couple of friends
10:10
Speaker 2: that ended up coming to me that were cheated on,
10:14
Speaker 2: and in my practice, it just kept showing up. And
10:16
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I this is where I
10:18
Speaker 2: need to go. And I felt so much passion around it,
10:21
Speaker 2: and I had so much understanding and the men I
10:24
Speaker 2: was working with I was seeing I was getting to them,
10:27
Speaker 2: and just the fact that I know that shared experience.
10:31
Speaker 2: I was like, I have to do this. I have
10:33
Speaker 2: to write that book. I have to help men.
10:35
Speaker 1: What were you hearing? What themes were you hearing? What
10:39
Speaker 1: was coming on?
10:40
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, like I said before, so much shame,
10:44
Speaker 2: so much isolation, so much you know, to say, you
10:48
Speaker 2: can feel emasculated as an understatement, right, and I think
10:53
Speaker 2: just being holding a space with a man and letting
10:56
Speaker 2: him say that and like release that story. And in
11:02
Speaker 2: the other part too, like our society if you think
11:04
Speaker 2: about it, Like I remember, I read and looked at
11:07
Speaker 2: so many books and I looked at so much stuff
11:10
Speaker 2: online and everything was talking about the man being the cheater,
11:15
Speaker 2: not the man being the betrayed. And I remember how
11:19
Speaker 2: off putting that was and insulting, right, And that's the
11:24
Speaker 2: other thing that guys would tell me. It's like I
11:26
Speaker 2: feel alone in the world, like the world doesn't see me,
11:28
Speaker 2: the world doesn't understand my pain. And that was the
11:32
Speaker 2: other thing, Like I'm going to write this book like
11:35
Speaker 2: men need to know, you know. And statistically, that's the
11:38
Speaker 2: other part is men don't report getting cheated on. It's
11:42
Speaker 2: super underreported, and so that's probably part of the deal, right,
11:46
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of new data starting to come out,
11:49
Speaker 2: and as women have changed their sense of empowerment and
11:53
Speaker 2: women in the workforce and stuff like that, you know,
11:57
Speaker 2: the balance is shifting and a lot of stuff I've
12:00
Speaker 2: been hearing in some of the stuff I'm seeing, I'm
12:02
Speaker 2: thinking it's probably pretty equal the same amount of women
12:06
Speaker 2: cheat as men do.
12:07
Speaker 1: So and you mentioned she but let's kind of open
12:11
Speaker 1: that up a little bit more. Men don't want to
12:14
Speaker 1: talk about it, obviously for a variety of reasons. But
12:18
Speaker 1: what are some of those reasons? Because it's going to
12:21
Speaker 1: make me look weak, It's going to make me look
12:23
Speaker 1: like I I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough
12:26
Speaker 1: in bed, I mean, on and on and on.
12:29
Speaker 2: It's well, first of all, right, I mean you nailed
12:32
Speaker 2: it right. A lot of it is there are social expectations,
12:37
Speaker 2: social norms on what is masculinity. And actually those social
12:42
Speaker 2: norms I find they really hinder the recovery process for
12:47
Speaker 2: men in betrayal. But totally right, like a man like
12:51
Speaker 2: the I always like to say, the core way men
12:55
Speaker 2: show up as we provide and we protect. And when
12:58
Speaker 2: a man's cheated on he can lose is that sense
13:01
Speaker 2: or that purpose or that belief, right? And so men
13:04
Speaker 2: were supposed to appear strong, right, men don't necessarily I don't.
13:09
Speaker 2: I'm a stereotype, but not all men understand vulnerability and
13:14
Speaker 2: they don't see that actually vulnerability is a strength, right.
13:19
Speaker 2: And so the big part here is it's breaking some
13:21
Speaker 2: of those social norms, you know, it's those traditional views
13:26
Speaker 2: of masculinity is really what gets in the way of
13:29
Speaker 2: men seeking help and the help being out there.
13:32
Speaker 1: I think I'm curious in you are research for this,
13:37
Speaker 1: what if anything you found that existed as kind of
13:42
Speaker 1: the foundation for this betrayal. I mean, obviously, when things
13:46
Speaker 1: are when a partner betray is betrayed upon or betrays
13:51
Speaker 1: something's going on.
13:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean right, that's that's a big question. That's
13:57
Speaker 2: a second podcast episode. But no, let me say this.
14:03
Speaker 2: I think there's two possibilities. One is, some individuals right
14:10
Speaker 2: to determined by how maybe you know, their attachment styles are,
14:15
Speaker 2: how they grew up, right, they might be more likely
14:20
Speaker 2: to have an affair, right, like they don't they struggle
14:22
Speaker 2: with intimacy, or they grew up in a very unstable
14:26
Speaker 2: household where you know, love was conditional and things like that.
14:31
Speaker 2: That might be a person that could have a possible
14:35
Speaker 2: opportunity to cheat to seek that comfort.
14:39
Speaker 1: Right.
14:40
Speaker 2: So that's one one way. And then the other kind
14:42
Speaker 2: of person out there is it is literally not necessarily
14:45
Speaker 2: the person, but it's the relationship, right and when the
14:49
Speaker 2: relationship breaks down. And what's kind of unique in my situation,
14:53
Speaker 2: I'm remarried and my wife Judith, she's a betrayal trauma
14:57
Speaker 2: coach for women, and she works only with women. She
15:01
Speaker 2: only works with women cheaters, and we pair up a lot.
15:05
Speaker 2: We give some great continuity of care by you know,
15:08
Speaker 2: we kind of flipped the script on betrayal. I got
15:10
Speaker 2: the guys, I got cheated on she works with the
15:12
Speaker 2: women who cheat. And one of the things, you know,
15:15
Speaker 2: I'm getting to learn a lot. I wish I could
15:17
Speaker 2: be a fly on the wall like when she does
15:18
Speaker 2: her groups and stuff. But one of the things I'm
15:21
Speaker 2: learning from her is, you know, and I kind of
15:24
Speaker 2: knew it, but a lot of these women they felt lonely,
15:27
Speaker 2: they felt dismissed, they felt lost, they didn't feel attracted anymore,
15:31
Speaker 2: they write, And that's what happens sometimes in relationship, in life, Right,
15:35
Speaker 2: we're just going and going and checking boxes, and that's
15:38
Speaker 2: back to that drifting apart, and then someone gave them
15:42
Speaker 2: some attention.
15:43
Speaker 1: Right.
15:43
Speaker 2: And one of the things you know, I learn, and
15:47
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot, is like, I don't think people
15:50
Speaker 2: go out there going I'm going to go have an affair,
15:52
Speaker 2: or oh that person was so nice to me. I
15:55
Speaker 2: wonder if I can get with them in bed. I
15:58
Speaker 2: don't think that's how it happens. I think it's it's
16:00
Speaker 2: you know, the things I'm learning from my wifer, it's
16:03
Speaker 2: a slow burn often, right, it's filling a void and
16:07
Speaker 2: they're getting that dopamine hit that's hard to resist, right.
16:12
Speaker 2: So so in the relationship it's important, right, to not
16:17
Speaker 2: have an affair. I think the biggest part is what
16:19
Speaker 2: most of us struggle with is communication, communication and vulnerability.
16:24
Speaker 2: And I think when couples work on that and they
16:26
Speaker 2: look at that, I think it's a lot harder for
16:29
Speaker 2: affairs to happen because there's no space to hide the affair.
16:33
Speaker 2: There's no space for the affair to be created. If
16:36
Speaker 2: you will, let me.
16:38
Speaker 1: Just reminded when I'm speaking with Adam Nissensen. The book
16:40
Speaker 1: is called A Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal, Overcoming the
16:44
Speaker 1: Pain and Repercussions of a Cheating Partner. So you decide
16:49
Speaker 1: I'm going to write this book, what do you want
16:54
Speaker 1: to say? Just big picture? What did you want to
16:57
Speaker 1: say in this book? Why did you want to write the book?
17:01
Speaker 2: Yeah? I love that question. I don't think I've ever
17:04
Speaker 2: been asked that question. The book was published a year
17:07
Speaker 2: ago this month, so you know, a couple a couple
17:12
Speaker 2: of things. One thing, I writing the book. I wanted
17:17
Speaker 2: to get clarity on my journey, and I was actually
17:20
Speaker 2: really surprised. You know, the book's clinical, but it's not
17:24
Speaker 2: clinical in a sense. It's hard to read. I wrote
17:26
Speaker 2: it with the idea that this is for men to
17:29
Speaker 2: read and men we want direct short to the point,
17:33
Speaker 2: I have a lot of guys tell me they love
17:34
Speaker 2: I have a lot of I mean, the book has
17:36
Speaker 2: bullet points throughout guys like I love the bullet points, right,
17:39
Speaker 2: and so I wrote it with that in mind. But
17:42
Speaker 2: most most all the chapters have a part about my experience.
17:45
Speaker 1: Right.
17:46
Speaker 2: So if the chapters about boundaries, I talk about what
17:49
Speaker 2: I did or didn't do with boundaries on my journey.
17:52
Speaker 2: And the book's not about really what my partner did,
17:55
Speaker 2: it's what I did, and I actually reflecting I want
18:00
Speaker 2: learned so much like some of us, kind of embarrassed.
18:02
Speaker 2: I was like, man, I should have done that different.
18:04
Speaker 1: Or wow, give give me one or two things you
18:07
Speaker 1: should have done.
18:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, really, the biggest thing I discovered was around
18:11
Speaker 2: the boundaries. I had all these ideas of what my
18:16
Speaker 2: boundaries were, right and what I wanted them to be,
18:19
Speaker 2: and some of them I was afraid to tell her
18:22
Speaker 2: or I was afraid to uphold them. And the reason
18:24
Speaker 2: why is I didn't want to push her away more.
18:27
Speaker 2: I didn't want to scare her off. I didn't want
18:29
Speaker 2: her to say, well, screw this, I'm not doing that.
18:31
Speaker 2: So we'll just have to end it. I was in
18:34
Speaker 2: a lot of fear, and I'm finding a lot of
18:37
Speaker 2: the guys I work with same fear right boundaries specifically
18:43
Speaker 2: around what.
18:45
Speaker 1: Like.
18:45
Speaker 2: I'll tell you the one like for me, one of
18:47
Speaker 2: the biggest boundaries that wasn't upheld upheld was that her
18:52
Speaker 2: affair was with someone at work. And that's very common, right,
18:57
Speaker 2: A lot of a lot of the women who cheat,
19:00
Speaker 2: it's with someone from work, right. And the real way
19:04
Speaker 2: around that is, well, either you have to get transferred
19:07
Speaker 2: to another department, or you need to quit your job, right,
19:11
Speaker 2: or something drastically has to happen if you want to reconcile.
19:15
Speaker 2: And when I offered that, I offered it, I didn't
19:18
Speaker 2: state it. I was told, no, I love my job
19:20
Speaker 2: and I'm not leaving it. And I was like, okay.
19:24
Speaker 2: But the truth was I knew. I was like, well,
19:27
Speaker 2: that's just never going to work, right.
19:29
Speaker 1: You can't.
19:29
Speaker 2: You can't have feelings for someone and then be around
19:32
Speaker 2: them and just turn those feelings off, no matter how
19:35
Speaker 2: those feelings were created. So that was one thing. And
19:39
Speaker 2: then really though the purpose of the book, back to
19:42
Speaker 2: your question, was I wanted to give men a voice
19:47
Speaker 2: and one of the things that has just touched me
19:50
Speaker 2: so much this past year is how many men I
19:53
Speaker 2: get a lot of emails all the time, and how
19:55
Speaker 2: many guys that just thank me for writing the book
19:59
Speaker 2: and for speaking it and to being brave enough to
20:01
Speaker 2: put it out there. And that's kind of my mission,
20:04
Speaker 2: is I. I you know, it's only been a year now,
20:07
Speaker 2: but like, I want to be that person that lets
20:09
Speaker 2: people know this is happening. I want to be the
20:12
Speaker 2: face I want to let everyone know it can happen
20:14
Speaker 2: to anyone. It doesn't matter who you are, your background,
20:17
Speaker 2: what you look like, et cetera, et cetera. It happens
20:20
Speaker 2: all the time. And men need a voice, and men
20:23
Speaker 2: need to know they're not alone. And that's the purpose
20:25
Speaker 2: of the book, to put all those crazy thoughts into
20:29
Speaker 2: order so they understand.
20:32
Speaker 1: Would you say the book is for is for a
20:35
Speaker 1: lay audience? You mentioned it's clinical as it for therapists.
20:38
Speaker 2: I mean it is it is for therapists. It's not
20:41
Speaker 2: written for therapists. It's written it's written for the average guy. Right.
20:46
Speaker 2: It's clinical in the sense of, this is what's happening
20:49
Speaker 2: to you, this is why it's happening. This is here's
20:52
Speaker 2: some ideas of what you should do. Right. It's but
20:55
Speaker 2: it's it's not written in necessarily clinical language or anything
20:59
Speaker 2: like that, and just how do you order to it?
21:02
Speaker 1: All? Okay, how did you structure the book? What are
21:05
Speaker 1: some of the themes you wanted to make sure you
21:08
Speaker 1: got in there?
21:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things with
21:12
Speaker 2: all the work I was doing, I'm very like therapy.
21:17
Speaker 2: Most therapy is very process oriented, right, And I like
21:22
Speaker 2: process in men in general, we like like we like
21:26
Speaker 2: the IKEA catalog. Oh, I could see right when I'm
21:29
Speaker 2: building my thing, right, and I think I think men
21:32
Speaker 2: need to see what's happening and where it's at. And
21:35
Speaker 2: so one of the things in the process through the
21:38
Speaker 2: couple of years I started before you know, getting into it,
21:41
Speaker 2: before I really got into the book, was I kind
21:43
Speaker 2: of created this idea called masculine betrayal trauma. I thought
21:47
Speaker 2: there needed to be a phrase put down that explains
21:51
Speaker 2: what men are going through. And then from that, I
21:55
Speaker 2: thought it would be good to break it down into
21:57
Speaker 2: some stages, and I kind of I came up with
21:59
Speaker 2: seven stages. They're not linear, but they're linear, right, because
22:04
Speaker 2: we're human, right, we can bounce around between stages, but
22:08
Speaker 2: I wanted men to see and understand where they're at
22:12
Speaker 2: on this journey. And so that's how I broke it down,
22:16
Speaker 2: so kind of made it more of a little bit
22:18
Speaker 2: of a you know, a blueprint if you will, to
22:22
Speaker 2: how to navigate all of it.
22:25
Speaker 1: You know, as you're talking, and you said you wanted
22:27
Speaker 1: to be the voice in a sense, or give men voice.
22:31
Speaker 1: It is so crazy. We exist obviously in this culture
22:36
Speaker 1: as you kind of referenced before, that doesn't support men
22:41
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable. I mean, Jesus, come on, it feels
22:48
Speaker 1: so much like it's an uphill battle.
22:53
Speaker 2: It is. It is. I mean, listen, no, it is.
22:57
Speaker 2: I've been reaching out to media and it's like they
22:59
Speaker 2: don't get it or they don't see why this would
23:01
Speaker 2: be a unique thing to talk about, like it's a man. Uh,
23:06
Speaker 2: he'll be fine.
23:07
Speaker 1: Right, No, right, you're all right. Do you feel that
23:12
Speaker 1: things are changing? Do you feel I'm curious about the
23:15
Speaker 1: people who come to you to see you. Are Are
23:21
Speaker 1: they people who would like normally go see a therapist.
23:24
Speaker 2: No? Actually, I literally this morning got an email from
23:29
Speaker 2: someone saying, like, I've never done therapy. I don't even
23:32
Speaker 2: like the idea of thinking I should be in a
23:34
Speaker 2: group and sharing. No, I mean it's just right. So
23:39
Speaker 2: many Look, a lot of these men right don't have
23:43
Speaker 2: those tools, hence why their marriages grew apart and so
23:48
Speaker 2: and that's not always the case, right, I don't want
23:50
Speaker 2: to stereotype that, but right these are men are not
23:53
Speaker 2: seeking usually help or wanting personal growth. So there's a
23:58
Speaker 2: big hurdle, right, get through there. But at the same time,
24:02
Speaker 2: I'm getting men reaching out to me like just saying like, man,
24:06
Speaker 2: I can't believe I found you, or you know another
24:09
Speaker 2: I'll tell you this guy. This is another interesting thing.
24:12
Speaker 2: Like this past year and all the men's groups I've
24:15
Speaker 2: been doing, I've noticed this pattern where guys are coming
24:18
Speaker 2: in ten years, fifteen, twenty years since the d day,
24:22
Speaker 2: right of the discovery of the betrayal, and they're just
24:26
Speaker 2: now doing the work. It's so scary and sad and heartbreaking.
24:33
Speaker 2: And what's happening is is there like oh, my kids
24:36
Speaker 2: moved out and everything's different, or I'm retiring and my
24:42
Speaker 2: partner and I are together all the time, right and
24:45
Speaker 2: it's not working, or I'm dis right. And that's the
24:48
Speaker 2: thing that men don't realize is you can run from this,
24:51
Speaker 2: you can hide, you could pretend as if, but if
24:54
Speaker 2: you don't do the work, it's going to be there
24:56
Speaker 2: and one day it'll it'll pop up and it'll knock
24:59
Speaker 2: you to your knee.
25:00
Speaker 1: And it's called trauma.
25:02
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. I'll tell you. I'll tell you what.
25:05
Speaker 2: One of my best friends and my brother they didn't
25:08
Speaker 2: know about what I went through until about eight years later.
25:12
Speaker 2: I told them and they were just in shock, and
25:16
Speaker 2: then they were pissed at me that I didn't tell them,
25:19
Speaker 2: But I just didn't, you know, back to the thing.
25:22
Speaker 2: I just put my head down. I didn't want to
25:24
Speaker 2: get into it. I didn't want them to judge, you know,
25:28
Speaker 2: my ex wife and you know, the mother of my child,
25:31
Speaker 2: right like all those things. I had all the excuses
25:34
Speaker 2: and reasons, and then they actually were ended up. They
25:37
Speaker 2: were awesome about it. They they they hurt for me
25:40
Speaker 2: that I hurt, and I had to do so much
25:42
Speaker 2: of that alone. So I see a lot of that
25:44
Speaker 2: happening out there.
25:45
Speaker 1: I almost feel like men, as much as the culture
25:54
Speaker 1: kind of pulls them away from speaking like this, we're
25:59
Speaker 1: being vulnera or having this type of community or being
26:02
Speaker 1: in a group like this. They need it, they kind
26:05
Speaker 1: of they need it. What are you seeing in these
26:10
Speaker 1: groups that you were facilitating? What?
26:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me say this first. I think every man
26:20
Speaker 2: should have a tribe, should have a brotherhood, should have
26:23
Speaker 2: a group.
26:24
Speaker 1: Right.
26:24
Speaker 2: I don't mean the buddies I go get a drink
26:26
Speaker 2: with and we talk crap and write and make jokes.
26:29
Speaker 2: I mean, actually, you know, somewhere where you're not sizing
26:33
Speaker 2: up the next guy and wondering if he's competition or
26:36
Speaker 2: better than you, but where you're actually raw and vulnerable
26:39
Speaker 2: with a group of guys. And you know, one of
26:42
Speaker 2: the things I've seen in my groups, my groups last
26:45
Speaker 2: eight weeks, and a lot of my groups still meet
26:51
Speaker 2: and they'll still check in with me, which I think
26:53
Speaker 2: is amazing. Right. And a couple guys I know of
26:56
Speaker 2: like you know, they're all from all over the United States.
26:59
Speaker 2: A couple guys of on and met with each other,
27:01
Speaker 2: hung out. They've sent me pictures, right, Like, that's what
27:05
Speaker 2: we need. That's the like, at the end of the day,
27:09
Speaker 2: my betrayal, my men's betrayal groups, as much as they
27:12
Speaker 2: are about the betrayal and all that they're about, brotherhood
27:15
Speaker 2: and getting guys to see that and that is where
27:18
Speaker 2: the shift happens. That's where the magic happens. Or also
27:22
Speaker 2: seeing right, you have ten guys, and those ten guys
27:25
Speaker 2: are in ten different situations, in different places in marriage
27:29
Speaker 2: ending or it's been over or reconciled, right, all that
27:32
Speaker 2: they get to kind of see where they're at and
27:34
Speaker 2: they can go you know, I have a lot of
27:35
Speaker 2: guys will say like, man, maybe maybe we're doing better
27:39
Speaker 2: than I thought, right, because they get different perspective and
27:43
Speaker 2: some of them are like, maybe we're not doing.
27:45
Speaker 1: As good as I thought.
27:46
Speaker 2: So that's the gift in group, right, and for anything
27:49
Speaker 2: in your life. I think that's the gift is that
27:52
Speaker 2: connection and just the human spirit. We need to be connected.
27:56
Speaker 2: We crave that. But I think phone society work the grind.
28:00
Speaker 2: I think we're really we've lost that ability to connect
28:04
Speaker 2: as much as we used to. I think, you know, as.
28:07
Speaker 1: We kind of wind down here, so you have the
28:11
Speaker 1: Men's Betrayal Partner Group and obviously four men people can
28:18
Speaker 1: learn more about that, but going to website, yeah okay,
28:23
Speaker 1: and we'll to link that up, and also you have
28:25
Speaker 1: a podcast. Tell us a little bit about that.
28:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's called Men Get Cheated on two. It
28:33
Speaker 2: drops every Monday, and it's a little bit different in
28:36
Speaker 2: the sense I don't have guests and it's just me
28:40
Speaker 2: ten to thirteen minutes each podcast, Short and sweet again
28:45
Speaker 2: made for men, get to the point, and it's a
28:48
Speaker 2: different topic each each week. And yeah, I just started it.
28:53
Speaker 2: I started it this summer that we must pass.
28:56
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, going, how do people learn more about
28:58
Speaker 1: you Adam and everything you?
29:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, the easiest way is online, of course, my website
29:04
Speaker 2: which is Betrayal shrink dot com. And on there there's everything,
29:08
Speaker 2: all my blogs, links to my podcast, my book. I
29:13
Speaker 2: also have a couple of workbooks. I have one on
29:15
Speaker 2: trust after Betrayal and another one on Intrusive Thoughts after Betrayal.
29:20
Speaker 2: But it's all there in ways of getting connected with me.
29:23
Speaker 1: Okay, that's Betrayal Shrink dot com. We'll have that link
29:27
Speaker 1: up here at the show notes page at the Trauma
29:29
Speaker 1: Therapist podcast dot com. Adam, appreciate you, man, appreciate your
29:34
Speaker 1: openness and honesty and what you're doing is inspiring.
29:38
Speaker 2: Thanks.
29:38
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. We'll
29:41
Speaker 1: be in touch you got it,