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Susan Robertson · Calm Under Fire

• Col. John Boggs: Well, welcome to Calm Under Fire. I'm Colonel John Boggs. I'm the president of Fortitude Consulting. And of course, we are a leadership development and coaching firm. And today we are joined by Susan Robertson, who has spent more than three decades working with senior leaders and executive teams to improve performance where it matters most. How leaders align, collaborate, and show, and how they show up under pressure. Through her work, She helps organizations address what often goes unseen. That's the breakdown in trust, misalignment at the top, and the invisible barriers that hold strong performers back from reaching their next level. So today we're talking about leadership when the challenge isn't effort, it's clarity, alignment, and trust. Susan, thank you so much for being here today. I can't. you how much I appreciate it. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Thank you, Colonel Boggs. Appreciate being here. Col. John Boggs: Absolutely. Well, ma'am, do you mind if we jump right in and get started? Susan Heberlie Robertson: Sure, let's go. Col. John Boggs: Okay. You talk about silent killers of performance. When pressure rises inside an organization, what do leaders most often fail, what do they often fail to see? Susan Heberlie Robertson: They failed to see as a as a an executive team they failed to see the breakdown in communication The immediate breakdown in communication. So before we started I was talking about a crisis situation that happened to one of my companies last month and When this crisis situation and it was it impacted the whole country the whole executive team Just each one went heads down and started focusing on their division, their role, and what they needed to do to immediately solve this issue. The problem was because they all went heads down and that meant they stopped communicating. They did not look at it as a strategic issue. And so then the impacts to, I would say their... customer infrastructure and delivering of service then started to break down because everyone was fighting their own fire. Instead of saying, hang on, we just had this major crisis, let's everybody lift their head up and say, all right, what's really happening? What do we need to do? What levers do we need to pull? And again, the effort was there. It wasn't that people weren't doing things. They were doing it in isolation. And in the meantime, several of their national customers started pulling their business or slowing it down. And everyone saw a piece of it. And so they didn't realize it until the end of the day of this particular crisis, because it was like a big, almost like a bomb went off kind of thing. At the end of the day, the CEO lifted his head up and went, whoa, hang on. We just had a third of our business go away. But yet they were all like, running. You know, so I would say the breakdown in communication because everyone goes into fight or flight. Col. John Boggs: Interesting. They all went on a fight or flight and didn't even realize it. Susan Heberlie Robertson: They did not. And so my, this is a client I've worked on with for a number of years. So because I saw it in the paper, I'm immediately calling, trying to get them on the phone. I couldn't get them on the phone. I didn't think I would. And I'm trying to text because I knew, I knew their pattern and it's not a pattern just for them. I've seen it repeated. That people, they see a problem, they want to fix it, and they put the blinkers on and they go, even at the most senior levels. And instead of just stopping and saying, hang on, we need to take a strategic perspective on this. And we need to be touching base, you know, every hour or so, depending on the... I'll give another example. It was in the same country. I was there when they had, this is Mexico by the way, I was there when they had a major earthquake. It was on the same day that they had a major earthquake, I think was, I'd been 15 or 20 years prior. I was there, I was in my hotel. They did their memorial, fire earthquake drill. And then the earthquake happened two days later. I mean, two hours later. And I was supposed to be meeting with the CEO and his team Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: at three o'clock that day. So the earthquake, I want to say, happened about one o'clock. And so we were outside and, you know, you could feel it going on. And I was looking around going, geez, I'm in the middle of a big glass corridor. If any of these come down. But what they did that was different. is first off, they immediately contacted me and asked me, was I okay? And that's what I was trying to do for them, right? I was trying to find out, are you okay? How can I help? That sort of thing. So that caring part did come out. However, with each other, it didn't happen, but you know, in terms of the client I was just talking about, but this client actually found out, was I okay? Would I still be able to come in? Now I found out that their building had fallen down, was damaged. Several of the places where their employees lived had fallen down, were damaged. So I came in and we actually did a whole strategy meeting. The first thing they did was they stopped. The first thing they did was get their employees to safety. They sent buses, got their employees out. They created a triage area. at their office. And then the second thing they did was stop to say, okay, first, that was a very short lived crisis that, you know, earthquake was over. They didn't have to worry about more buildings falling down. They knew the damage. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: They then aligned and said, what's the first thing that we need to do for our community and for our people? And we spent, yes, and we spent like the next five hours just talking strategy. And for them, they decided the best thing that we can do, because these people are worried about, fortunately, it sounds terrible, but fortunately, they only lost one in the process. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And they did have some people that had been hurt. But they said the most important thing is that some of these people are going to be afraid because they don't have a place to live anymore. They're afraid because the building itself where they were working was damaged. Are they going to have money to survive? So they then took care of saying, look, we're going to make sure you get paid. We're going to make sure you're employed. We're going to make sure you get here. And then we're going to make sure you have a place to live in the meantime. And so then everyone, like all the, the executive team, they gave up their offices. They pulled everyone in. Everybody was working in little cubes because they Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: felt like the best strategy was if we can get these people to work. then they're going to feel safer. They're going to feel like their families are cared for. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Marketing wise, that was a very good ploy. You know, so Col. John Boggs: Yes. Susan Heberlie Robertson: how are they going to put that out in the community? You know, if you've lost your home or if you've lost something, come here. They happen to be like the Gold's Gym of Mexico. Come here, take your showers. We have our cafeteria. If you've lost your, you know, so we will give you food, but they... spent the first five hours going, what do we need? They didn't worry about fixing their building. They took care of the business and they took care of the people. And it made their business so much stronger because they came together rather than just, you know, focusing Col. John Boggs: Wow. Susan Heberlie Robertson: business itself. Col. John Boggs: Wow, what a great example of alignment. They ensured they were all aligned and then they moved forward. you tell me, there companies that aren't aligned? What's the signal for that? mean, that's a great example of alignment. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Yeah, the, is what I would say the illusion of alignment. So I can go into any company and I could get to the illusion of alignment. You know, everyone knows what the mission knows what the purpose is. But generally, we, we got brought in because someone on the team, generally the most senior leader. So whether it was a C level leader or a direct, you know, a senior VP or an EVP that had a budget. They would bring us in because they knew they had internal fighting. They knew they had internal competition. And so then they knew that they weren't getting the best, but nobody was willing to talk about the elephant in the living room. And what was causing it. And it comes down to leadership behavior. And, you know, I need to build my kingdom faster than you build your kingdom. I want to be seen. I'm the one that wants to be promoted. I want to be seen as the hero. And so then the internal fighting starts, or I just think I'm smarter than you. I think my strategy is smarter than you. And so then you get, get, I always call those people the lightning rods because they're the ones who usually think they're smarter. So they draw a lot of lightning from the rest of the group, toward them. And, and then that creates so many workarounds. That's a loss of. you know, financial impact even, loss of, you know, fast decision making and things like that. so yeah, that generally they're like, you know, when we get brought in, we're brought in sort of like as a SWAT team, we go in and we don't do a culture study. We actually do a temperature study that we call the climate. What's really happening. What are the impacts of the behaviors of leadership? Not just is this a great place to work, what's happening based on the behavior? And so then that's how we would also get into helping people level up individually. And then the collective behavior. you know, that's how we would find where there was workarounds where people were sabotaging each other, where there was the lack of the alignment even though on the surface it looked good. Col. John Boggs: Wow. Wow, that's just fighting each other. my gosh. Okay. Susan Heberlie Robertson: It happened all the time. And jokingly, I mean, this is terrible to say, my husband and I, because we own the business together. said, well, we definitely have job security because we're working with humans. And yet Col. John Boggs: Boy, that's true. That's true. Susan Heberlie Robertson: you see it, you know, like the very first time that we had the basketball team go to the Olympics and you had all of these all-star players. but they didn't know how to come together as a team. So a team with less capability and skill, you know, we had that happen several times until we learned how to play as a team with all of these all-stars, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And I mean, it wasn't the first time, I think it was the second or third time in the Olympics where we had an all-star team. It's like, really? We lost with all these great players? But if you don't pass the ball. If you don't communicate when you're out on the court, if you don't have a good strategy that everyone follows and they're trying to be heroes together, not heroes apart, then that's how we lose the game. Col. John Boggs: That's how we lose the game. That is it. What do leaders unintentionally do that erodes this trust? It erodes the ability for teams to come together. I mean, those were perfect examples, by the way. I loved them. But what can a leader do, or what do leaders do that unintentionally erodes the ability to build trust? Susan Heberlie Robertson: Well, this is where people's internal pressure thresholds account and where inner resilience counts. So we call it the F word and it has four letters and it's spelled F-E-A-R, fear. So as soon as people begin to become afraid, even if it's like mild concern or if we don't... catch that inner trigger on the inside of ourselves, all of us go into the I got to or have to mode. And so when you have many high performing leaders are prone to taking action immediately. And so if they don't train themselves to stop and assess, then they start reacting to what's in the moment. versus the overall picture of what needs to be looked at. So then when they do that, oftentimes, even if it's a CEO, then they inadvertently disempower their team because then they become either command and control or I've seen both, mostly becomes command and control and they're just shooting orders. Now there are times, I would have expected that from the CEO where the earthquake was. He did not become command and control because lives were at stake. He became, one, assess, two, nap. Then the whole team was, if you will, barking the orders about what needed to be done. But it was a consolidated, because they did need to help people immediately. Like they wanted me to get out of harm's way. I wasn't in harm's way where the damage was done, but they wanted to make sure we were out of harm's way. That's when you go into that command and control, you know. Whoever has got the longest line of sight. then afterwards, you know, if it's not life or death, the ability to stop back and say, hang on. But many times leaders haven't taken care of their own inner threshold of pressure. And so then they will come in and they'll just start doing this. And they could Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: be a lot of good decisions Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: to a short term outcome, but they've lost trust. They've then, because I've seen this too, have guaranteed that they generally will have to remain in control because no one wants to make the mistake after that. Col. John Boggs: Nobody wants to be caught holding the bag. No one wants to be left with, I've got to make the decision. man, yeah, wow. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And we actually do an exercise with teams. And we have one side and we have a number of behaviors, the ways we build trust. And we allow them to do it anonymously. So we put the person's individual name. Everyone has the same color pen. And so if I'm doing it on you, John, and you've got 10 other people, we just circle the ones we say, is behaviorally what you do to build trust. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: the paper. What does John do that inadvertently breaks trust? Everyone circles, I collect it, and then I hand out everyone's cards. And that's when everyone, this is what is real truth telling because nobody, it's difficult to tell the real truth that you're Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: being overbearing. Well, how are you being overbearing? Or you're being to this, or you're not speaking up enough. You you say it on the side, but you're not saying it into the group. And so when you and I talked about and agreed on it, I said it and then you left me hanging out to dry because you didn't back me, right? So we get, we go into those behaviors openly. And that is in the 30 some odd years, I still don't see organizations or too many consultants that go to that level of this is real human being behavior. This is what caused. with people to trust or distrust. And if everyone can take a deep breath and we don't beat each up over it, we know that we've got to give each other grace as human beings. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And most people, you know, I said there's a four letter word, F-E-A-R, fear. Most people don't come in trying to be J-E-R-Ks either. Col. John Boggs: Yeah. Okay. Susan Heberlie Robertson: There are some who excel in that skill or capability, but most of us are here, we want to do a good job, we want to have a good impact, we want to create meaning. Now, if you have somebody who's Col. John Boggs: Wow. Susan Heberlie Robertson: trying to excel at being a jerk, then they really stick out. But that's more rare. There are people who come off Col. John Boggs: That's more rare. Susan Heberlie Robertson: as jerks who don't mean to come off as jerks, but they're not trying to excel in it. And then there are ones who try to excel in it. So, yeah. Col. John Boggs: Okay. So how do you build this trust? How do you do this when just that, when people, don't fully agree, they don't fully agree, but we've gotta work together. But I don't trust you because you are coming off like a J-E-R-K. So how do you get them to coalesce? How do you get them to come together? Susan Heberlie Robertson: This is where, in my opinion, that the how the leader, again, my husband and I would always say culture is the behavioral acquiescence to the person in charge. And then the rewards as a result and why a very senior leader can have such impact on the organization because they can so. empowerment and creativity and collaboration and where one plus one equals ten. Or they can sow culture where if I don't do exactly as they say, I'm whatever out is. so then you don't have synergy, you only have compliance. And when you only have compliance, you don't get the high performance. from a group because you're only as good as one brain. So what we go in is that we do a lot of coaching. If an executive calls us in and says, well, if we need this, and we say, you need to understand what you're signing up for with us. If you're going to hire us, this is what you're going to need to be, create psychological safety by being vulnerable, admitting your failures. But if the leader themselves, actually has a pretty good people feel like they're pretty good. If the leader Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: can go into that space, the loyalty of followership goes up exponentially because he or she then creates that safety, then the others are willing to walk in and then we can have the open conversation. But it takes sometimes, you know, so recently I'm working, the smallest company I've ever worked with. I've usually worked with Global Fortune 100s and I have a very small residential construction company and the CEO is like the ideas that he has and like and he wants to sprint and I'm like yeah you know not everyone sprints not everyone sprints for a marathon which is what he can do you know and so then what he inadvertently does is and I'll have to call him and I'll have to say, we'll call him Bob. Bob, you got, when I say over your skis, I don't mean it in a bad way. mean, like your skis are already down the hill with you on it and the other people are just getting off of the lift. Col. John Boggs: You Susan Heberlie Robertson: You gotta give them time to catch up. Col. John Boggs: Uh-huh. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And when he gets that feedback, he will apologize to his group because I did it again. Apologies. And they, you know, they're like, okay. Bob, we know, let us catch up to you. Here's where we are. And then they feel more comfortable to talk about what's going on and what they need to do. And by the way, it isn't as quick as you think it is. Because in his Col. John Boggs: Mmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: mind, it's always just three steps. know, under Col. John Boggs: Yeah. Susan Heberlie Robertson: those three steps, everybody else sees 120. And Col. John Boggs: Uh-huh. Susan Heberlie Robertson: so even though it's a very good culture, there's still some like, I'm to tell Bob there's 120 steps and not three. Yeah, so that's part of the role that I get to play in that organization. goes, why don't they just tell me it's 120 steps? And I said, you know, I don't worry about being fired. You can fire me. I've got other clients. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: but their likelihoods depend on you. Col. John Boggs: What about the opposite? What about the leader who's, I won't call them timid, they hear it, they understand it, but they fight with doing it. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Generally, if we get hired to work with a group like that, most of the time, the way we've gotten hired over the years is people refer us. We're not out there, not for our cultural stuff, for my individual coaching, for sure I'm out there, but for the cultural stuff, it's always been referred. So if we find somebody that's like that, We may take them on for three, maybe six months, but if we find that they won't take action, and generally speaking, they won't take action because they're afraid, then that's when we walk away. Because unless we can help them overcome that internal fear, and we do have methodologies and processes for that, we have to want to face that. We have to want to face the fire of our own being, of the things that scare us. If Col. John Boggs: Yes. Yes. Susan Heberlie Robertson: we give lip service to it, you do more damage than you could to a team and a culture. Col. John Boggs: You know, I've had a client who, and I'd love your take on this, a client who, they want to work, they want to do the work, they see it all. But yet they have a hard time moving forward with it. It goes back to your fear word, goes back to fear. Well, trying to get them past fear has been tough. So is there something that you do to work with people that you know they wanna do it, but they're just being held back? Susan Heberlie Robertson: Well, for years and I no longer own this business, but we had a five day leadership workshop and two and a half days were on pure self-awareness. And so whenever I would get to that place, if somebody was willing, I would ask them, can I poke? And if they were in the class, they already knew that I was going in. I was going to go into the psyche of them because When somebody wants to, but they find themselves stuck, there's a belief system in there that must be recovered. And gently, you don't break down someone's defense systems just to break them down. Because defense systems are there for an honorable reason. They were set there in place to protect somebody at one time in their life. And Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: so once we figure out what I call the positive purpose, of that defensive fear based behavior. That's when you can go in and reprogram a new behavior. If you don't take care of the need that was used to build the behavior that they're doing that they know, they up here intellectually, they know it's not helping them. If you don't take care of that need, matter, no amount of positive self-talk, no amount of willpower. will overcome that behavior because that inner deep need is not being taken care of. And so I call it de-layering. There are techniques, deep techniques, not the surfacey techniques of neuro linguistics that help people get to that, what I call, source programming. And it always goes back. It goes. back. It's not yesterday. You know, I jokingly will say people when we hit on something, I'm like, ah, give it a birthdate. And then that stops and I go, a lot of times people say, my whole life, I've been this way. And so whether they ever find the source moment when it got created, or a series of moments, or that created a behavior that that's no longer useful. but was useful at one time. Once they figure out that this is what that behavior is really doing, it's protecting them from now Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: the neuroscience, right? The neuroscience of behavior change. Yep, Col. John Boggs: Hmm, the neuroscience. Right. Susan Heberlie Robertson: that's when the neuroscience can really come in and help rewire the brain. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Okay. Susan Heberlie Robertson: that you've got to get to the source coding. Emotionally, yeah. Col. John Boggs: When you have leaders who Leaders who need to think differently when they step into new roles, they, well, they're stepping into a new role where their perception really matters as much as their performance. So how do you get them to start doing things a little bit different? Susan Heberlie Robertson: Well, to me, it depends on their natural predisposition. If their natural predisposition tends to be more big picture and wanting to, and they have a little bit higher of a risk tolerance, meaning that they can handle more risk, those people will step into that layer of the unknown and take more risk and try new things. more from a strategic point of view because they've been chomping at the bit to get there. Col. John Boggs: Right. Susan Heberlie Robertson: If you have somebody who has more of a predisposition to making sure that now that they're there, they're going to get it right, then they're generally Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: going to stay in a narrower lane. And so when I have somebody that, you know, let's say a large company like MasterCard brings me in and they have somebody like that. I generally have to start with teaching them what's the difference truly, what's the difference between thinking strategically and having a strategic transformational vision versus somebody who thinks having a strategic plan is strategy. So the ones that have the ability to think outside the box. So for example, Bob number two. Bob number two wanted to become the CEO of an organization that I had been working with at the cultural level. And Bob number two and I would often arm wrestle around strategy. And I would say to Bob number two, said, Bob number two. You are really good at once somebody identifies that there's a place on the other side of the mountain that we need to get to. You know, I want you on the team because you're going to put the plans through. You're going to bulldoze that mountain. You're going to get to the other side. What you don't have is the understanding of what's on the other side because you haven't seen it yet. That strategic thinking, that strategic visioning. And when you start to get into the higher levels, they look for more of that kind of thinking. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And I find it, sometimes I get really sad about it because you want Bob number two on your team because Bob number two is going to make it happen, especially if Bob number two is a great team player. But Bob number two doesn't realize he doesn't have, you know, the line of sight 10 miles down the road, but he thinks the strategic plan is strategy. And it's, it's not strategic vision. and then putting the milestones in place to get there, then you need the builder to come in. So the builder either has to learn. Now the opposite side is that if you have somebody who has that strategic vision and can see down the road, sometimes you need to put cement boots on them. Col. John Boggs: Uh-huh. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Because they may not be able to land the idea and put the orders in place. And so those are the two things at the most senior levels that I see from a strategy level that There's a tendency where we tend to be more one way over the other. I tend to be more out there. And then Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: as I can see it, to me, it's already done. And then Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: have folks going, hang on, hold up. We got to this first. Then we can go there. But not until then, I'm Col. John Boggs: Okay. Susan Heberlie Robertson: like, you know? Col. John Boggs: huh. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And if I don't, in my own self, if I don't become patient, I would disempower my own company. you know, so, or I would make them feel stupid. Because it's like, it's right there. Can't you see what's behind the mountain? No, they can't. They can't. But they're happy to build it if I can be articulate and clarify and slow down. Col. John Boggs: okay. So working with teams, with the executive teams, what has that taught you about leadership under pressure? Susan Heberlie Robertson: that we're all human beings and it doesn't matter how much money you're being paid. Everybody goes under pressure. Everyone has a pressure response. Most of us have a pressure response. You know, if you get that far along, you have a pressure response that's probably better than most. You can handle a lot of pressure and complexity. And that they've taught themselves this. You know, it's something they all had to work on so that they didn't become overreactive. And then we all have... behaviors under pressure that don't serve us no matter how self aware we are. Col. John Boggs: Interesting. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And so when we can catch ourselves, but usually we catch ourselves. You know, so the ability to understand that I was just triggered again. That to me is the difference between those who really go besides the strategy between the ones who really go far is that they could pull up and hold them, then hold themselves accountable and say, hang on. I was wrong with that one. I wasn't listening. you know, because they just got into go mode and we all have gone. So, yeah. Col. John Boggs: So those goal modes can take us off into the wrong direction. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Oh yeah. Thinking with each individual decision, we think it sounds reasonable and we can justify it with logic. And then you have five of those in a row and then you go, oh boy, wish I would have pulled up. And that's one of the reasons why, and including myself, I teach this stuff and I still find myself every so often, something big's happening, I'm like, huh, gotta get it solved, right? Don't. And then, hmm, Col. John Boggs: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Susan Heberlie Robertson: if I had just stopped, like I teach, it is done. Col. John Boggs: Uh-huh. Susan Heberlie Robertson: I would have made a different choice, a better choice. But that's where self-awareness and then understanding the behaviors that we have at senior levels, because we're impacting so many, is so important because, you know, another one of my clients, was the head of, it was an insurance company, it's a US-based insurance company for all of Latin America. And he had 40,000 people. And I would say to him, I'll call him Jim, you know, you're, you're impacting 40,000 times four at the family of four. As 160,000 lives that you are impacting. And when, he had a go mode that I would call the grizzly bear. So when he would become, he's somebody, everyone loved him, but he Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: had a side and everyone would get afraid of the grizzly side, but he had this huge heart. They'd much rather see the huge heart. And so Col. John Boggs: You Susan Heberlie Robertson: when they would see the grizzly side and so He trusted me to call him out on being grisly and he was willing to hear it. He was finally willing to hear it from all the CEOs of all the countries. That took some time. Col. John Boggs: Wow. Interesting, okay. Susan Heberlie Robertson: But it's like you're impacting that many lives. And his heart side understood that. But then the side of him that wanted things done, that wanted it fixed, that wanted it, that would bring out the grisly. And so he was a work in progress. That's what I mean being and creating the psychological safety and then recognizing I went into grizzly mode and you know, my bad. And Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: really being honorable about it because and working to, you know, they would joke to me and they're like, we almost saw him going to grizzly, but he stopped. And then they laugh about it because I could see him like going and Col. John Boggs: Wow. Susan Heberlie Robertson: holding himself back. Like, don't worry. Jim, we got it. We know you're concerned about that. They learned to read him and they learned to read his triggers. And then they were able to, you know, go, okay, let's, we know you're concerned. Let's defuse this. And then the team would, you know, good executive teams manage their leader and good executive leaders allow their teams to help manage them because they're listening. Col. John Boggs: Good executive teams manage their leaders. Good leaders help good leaders Susan Heberlie Robertson: a lot to help. Col. John Boggs: allow that, allow that to happen. That is right there. That is worth the entire time of people listening. Just that comment right there. That is amazing. what, first of all, let me say this. That speaks also very highly of you and your team. because I've been at this for years and I know full well that you have to create an environment where people Susan Heberlie Robertson: you Col. John Boggs: begin to feel safe and begin to feel psychologically safe, where they can have these kinds of discussions. I applaud you for being able to do that. That's just amazing. And I hope people are listening to that one because she's amazing. So what advice would you give a leader? who feels they're doing everything right, but they're still not getting the sorts of breakthroughs. You're still not making the sorts of progress that they feel they need to make. Susan Heberlie Robertson: First off, congratulate themselves for asking that question of themselves. Because when we start to ask a question, even for me, I will say, what is it, one of the questions I ask myself, what is it that I am not seeing? And the very nature of that question forces my brain to think in another way. It's still my brain thinking it, but what is it Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: that I'm not seeing? And then, finding somebody who's willing to, as I called it, poke at you to actually, if you can't do it on your own, start to take you down what I call de-layering the logic, different logic threads. I think one of my favorite books of all time that illustrates this is The Fifth Discipline. It was written by Peter Senge, out of, I think he was in 19. Col. John Boggs: boy. Yes. Susan Heberlie Robertson: And he, called it systemic thinking. we Col. John Boggs: system. Susan Heberlie Robertson: started, I think before we started talking, you talked about the spider web. And the way I always imagined systemic thinking is that all of us get tunnel vision, even the best of us, down one strand of the spider web. And then when crisis happens, we become even more focused. Maybe we're lucky if we see two or three strands. But what Peter Sanghi taught, and I've probably read this book five times, it just really fascinated me when it first came out, is how do you see all the interconnectivity of all of the strands? It's not that I see all the strands, there's the interconnectivity of each strand and how that works. And so for me, I would tell people, to, it's actually still required reading when I'm doing one-on-one coaching. I want you to learn Col. John Boggs: Huh? Susan Heberlie Robertson: systemic thinking so that you can understand how this impacts this, that impacts this, that impacts that. And even though we try and teach it, I think in school, it's not the same as when you're alive and you have a crisis and you need to consider all of those possibilities and then what happens down each one of those strands. And as you said earlier, I pull one strand, what happens to the entire web? And so that kind Col. John Boggs: That's right. Susan Heberlie Robertson: of systemic thinking, I believe is extremely necessary. I thought it was complex then, that we were in a complex world, and I was like, this wasn't nothing. We're really in level of complexity now. And the Col. John Boggs: Yeah? Yeah? Susan Heberlie Robertson: thing I think I help people do is to understand at an intellectual level, those interconnectivities, and then at the people level. Because the people, despite AI, still have to execute. Or they bring the ideas for better execution. So that interconnectivity of that entire web is so important, interdependencies. Steven Cudley wrote about it years ago in Seven Habits. They have independence. Col. John Boggs: Yes, you do. Yep. Susan Heberlie Robertson: You have dependence and independence and in the highest form is interdependence. Even the box collapse. The AI agents out there, are collaborating. Col. John Boggs: They are collaborating, that's a fact. That's a fact. Susan, this has been amazing. So for leaders listening who want to strengthen their alignment and trust in their own executive presence, and what's the best way for, could you tell us a little more about you and your organization and what's the best way for them to connect with you and learn more about you? Susan Heberlie Robertson: The easiest way is email at executapathth.lcbgroup.com. As I've been doing this for 30 some years, the thing that psychologically and emotionally and spiritually for me, I've really loved much more the one-on-one work. I've done a lot of... corporate development and all of that. my previous company, it's still in. So when I get organizations that it's still in business that really want what I talked about from the culture and team side, I often work in connection with them. And then for me, give me a complex leader. Give me somebody that wants to go someplace and has gotten stuck because what gives me the most joys not only helping teams become unstuck because then you just see creativity grow. When you see somebody Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: that's been hard working and you know, like so right now I'm working with people's people, the title of what I'm doing for the executive coaching is why high performers get passed over and how to fix it. You know, I meet so many nice people that because they don't understand the rules, if you will, and I say that loosely. about what it goes from this level to this level, like what I talked about with Bob that had strategic Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Susan Heberlie Robertson: actioning. When I am able to help them cross that threshold and that they stop being passed over, that's worth everything to me. Besides getting paid, yes, where I'm in the midst of my life that I don't have to charge what I charge my corporate clients, and I'm very lucky. in that place. And so I want to see good leaders in high places because they impact so many people. yeah, I mean, people tell Col. John Boggs: Isn't that the truth? Yes. Susan Heberlie Robertson: me sometimes, Sue, you should be charging more. And I'm like, I don't want to. Col. John Boggs: Wow. Well, Susan, I can't thank you enough for being here today. That's amazing. And for everyone listening, that's executivepathatlcbgroup.com. Executivepathatlcbgroup.com. And it's and and I'm sorry if you've listened to this and you don't want to reach out to Susan, then wow, there's a is it you have issues. OK, hey, Susan, thank you very much for being here. This was you are just amazing. can't thank you enough. Susan Heberlie Robertson: Thank you. Col. John Boggs: Okay. And for everyone else that's listening, that's it for today. lead well, stay the course, and out here.