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KOHBERGER'S CASUAL CONVO W/ CLERK ON MURDERS HE COMMITTED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace busted. Brian Coburger's casual, casual
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Speaker 1: conversation with a clerk caught on camera, a conversation about
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Speaker 1: the murders. He just committed, I'm Nancy Grace. This is
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with.
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Speaker 2: Us this morning.
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Speaker 3: No one was waking up.
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Speaker 2: I don't answering, but the kind of at least right
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Speaker 2: out and.
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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger caught on camera busted having a very very
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Speaker 1: lighthearted and casual conversation with the d m V clerk,
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Speaker 1: including about the murders. He just committed. I notice so
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Speaker 1: much nonverbal communication, which I would love to point out
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Speaker 1: to a jury, but the prosecutor in that jurisdiction was
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Speaker 1: too weak, spineless, gutless to take this thing to trial.
1:14
Speaker 1: So we could finally hear the facts and the families
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Speaker 1: can note the truth, even if it's a terrible truth,
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Speaker 1: the truth about what happened to their children. I noticed
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Speaker 1: that as he's talking, he's like looking, who does that?
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Speaker 1: Why is he doing that? Obviously he's looking around to
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Speaker 1: see if anybody's noticed him. He's in a government office.
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Speaker 1: Is he worried he's going to be apprehended. Somehow he's
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Speaker 1: looking on he's wearing it looks like black plastic gloves.
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Speaker 1: Does nobody notice that? Look at this guy? What black
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Speaker 1: plastic gloves inside? Anyway, There's so much more, but let's
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Speaker 1: just get right down to it. Let's watch Brian Koberger
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Speaker 1: in his casual convot, including about the murders he just committed.
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Speaker 2: So I'm going pretty good. Definitely need to get my
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Speaker 2: license change. Okay, we should be able to hold that.
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Speaker 4: No, I mean you have to have it in watching
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Speaker 4: the state, but you don't have to prove with that.
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Speaker 2: I do need to know the exact mile there are
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Speaker 2: in a car right now? Okay, perfect?
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Speaker 5: Okay, so you just have to ride that exact mileage
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Speaker 5: right here with no tens.
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Speaker 6: Check the boxes's actual, the same date, and then you'll
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Speaker 6: sign and you're direct on the bottom line there.
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Speaker 1: You know, when I have told a lie, typically to
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Speaker 1: my husband, I get hot all over. I feel bad.
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Speaker 1: I almost always go back and correct it and tell
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Speaker 1: the truth, unless it's something like, no, I'm too short,
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Speaker 1: I can't see your ball spot. Just I can't take it.
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Speaker 1: Do you see this guy straight out to doctor Bethany
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Speaker 1: Marshall joining US renowned psychoalyst out of the LA jurisdiction,
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Speaker 1: the author of deal Breaker. You can see her on
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Speaker 1: Bravo and on Peacock, and you can find her at
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Speaker 1: Dodor Bethany Marshall dot com Doctor Bethany, I get hot
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Speaker 1: all over and I imagine I turn red and I
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Speaker 1: can't live with the telling of the lie. It eats
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Speaker 1: me up. Do you see this guy?
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Speaker 2: I do, Nancy.
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Speaker 7: And what's interesting is a lot of the searches on
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Speaker 7: his phone were under psychopathic paranoia, which suggests that there
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Speaker 7: was a part of his personality that was quite paranoid
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Speaker 7: about getting caught. On the other hand, after the crime,
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Speaker 7: there were many many searches about the Moscow murders, so
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Speaker 7: he was fascinated and reliving. I think at this point
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Speaker 7: in the DMV he felt it was a safe environment,
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Speaker 7: there's no police around. He chatted for thirteen minutes with
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Speaker 7: this woman, and I think, Nancy, that he was reliving
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Speaker 7: the glory of the crime. He's proud of himself.
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Speaker 2: Again.
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Speaker 1: If you think about.
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Speaker 7: What's on that phone that was forensically searched, there was
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Speaker 7: a lot of flexing of muscles, a lot of preoccupation
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Speaker 7: with self. He loved himself. He loved looking in the
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Speaker 7: mirror and finding somebody at the DMB who would listen
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Speaker 7: to him. I think that put him in.
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Speaker 1: A back canny. Do you see what you just did?
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Speaker 1: Look at your monitor. You say the word muscles, and
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Speaker 1: the control room can't wait to show Brian Coberger without
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Speaker 1: his shirt on. I've seen that enough. Thank you take
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Speaker 1: please take that down. Okay, What if anything does that mean?
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Speaker 1: And how are you kin still there? What does that
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Speaker 1: have to do with what we're looking at today? Well,
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Speaker 1: it means that he's why are you talking about him
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Speaker 1: flexing muscles?
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Speaker 7: Because he's preoccupied with himself. He loves himself. He's only
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Speaker 7: attached to himself, and anybody who will give him attention,
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Speaker 7: he'll suck up the time. There's probably people behind him
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Speaker 7: at the DMB waiting, and he talks for thirteen minutes, Nancy.
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Speaker 7: He loves himself and he loves what he did, and
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Speaker 7: he wants to talk about it. He might have even
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Speaker 7: been aroused or sexually excited while he was talking about it.
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Speaker 7: Since I believe it was a sexually motivated crime, it
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Speaker 7: could have been almost like a masturbatory experience, like going
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Speaker 7: over the details he might also have been trying to
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Speaker 7: convince himself that nobody really knew that he was a perpetrator,
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Speaker 7: So trying to get clues from the clerk about what
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Speaker 7: she might have read or what people you know, wered
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Speaker 7: on the street was so to speak, Yeah.
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Speaker 1: That's very insightful because I've seen a lot of killers
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Speaker 1: before they're caught asking hey, what do you think? What
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Speaker 1: do you think about that? Have you heard about this?
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Speaker 1: Have you heard about that? And they seem to relish
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Speaker 1: of it and go so far as to say it's
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Speaker 1: a masturbatory endeavor. But I would say that they enjoy
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Speaker 1: reliving it. And you may be right. I just don't
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Speaker 1: want to think about Brian Coberger's and other parts right now.
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Speaker 1: But straight out to Hermonia Rodriguez plea investigative journalist joining
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Speaker 1: us tonight, Armania, thank you for being with us. Why
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Speaker 1: is he getting his tag changed out?
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Speaker 8: He actually had very convenient timing Brian Koberger because within
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Speaker 8: days of the murder, both his actual license was also
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Speaker 8: expiring and his registration. So he went in there and
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Speaker 8: did it all together and switched his plate from a
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Speaker 8: Pennsylvania one, which was the one he had on when
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Speaker 8: he committed the murders to a Washington State one and
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Speaker 8: that's part of what we know by now. He did
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Speaker 8: to cover his tracks as well as wearing those bulky
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Speaker 8: gloves wherever he went.
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Speaker 1: Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining US professor forensic
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on
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Speaker 1: Amazon and star of a hit Knew PODCA cast Body
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Speaker 1: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thanks for being
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Speaker 1: with us tonight, Joe Scott. Timing, timing, timing, timing, is
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Speaker 1: everything changing out his tag?
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Speaker 2: Wow?
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Speaker 1: And just in case someone got the tag the night
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Speaker 1: of the murders, he's there, bright and nearly getting rid
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Speaker 1: of that tag.
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Speaker 9: Yeah, he is. And again going to Hermione's comment, it
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Speaker 9: is a matter of convenience right now, how much more
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Speaker 9: time did he have in order to do this and
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Speaker 9: why hadn't he done it in days prior to that?
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Speaker 9: And so from a circumstantial standpoint, you begin to think about,
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Speaker 9: I wonder what his underlying rationale was for doing this,
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Speaker 9: and of course we'll never really know, but he shows
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Speaker 9: up and it is very very convenient for him to
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Speaker 9: do this. Also, you know he's inbolving in order to
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Speaker 9: do this, to walk in and Hey, that car that
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Speaker 9: he left the scene in, it's right outside that door, Nancy,
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Speaker 9: right outside that door. You know what I'm thinking about
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Speaker 9: right now? I'm thinking about what's the status of the
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Speaker 9: interior of this car right now as it's right outside
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Speaker 9: that door. I want to know had he already begun
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Speaker 9: to clean this thing up? You know, early on I'd
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Speaker 9: said that this car was going to be a rolling
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Speaker 9: crime scene. And he held onto that car for a
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Speaker 9: protracted period of time because he was never caught up
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Speaker 9: to you know, had he begun to clean that car?
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Speaker 9: Here he is walking from the outside in and he's
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Speaker 9: looking back over his shoulder, you know, And now he's
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Speaker 9: going to change the plates out and somehow that's going
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Speaker 9: to put people off at that point in time, put
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Speaker 9: them off, the scent, potentially every little thing that he
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Speaker 9: can do. Did he still have the knife at this point, Nancy?
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Speaker 9: Is it out in the car? I don't know.
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Speaker 1: You're seeing shots now, Please keep playing them. Brian Kiberger's
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Speaker 1: white Elantra The Night of the murders. And you know
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Speaker 1: another thing, you know, I just want to keep looking
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Speaker 1: at this video another thing, Joe Scott Morgan, when I
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Speaker 1: visited his apartment in Pullman, about eleven minutes away from
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Speaker 1: the murder scene, I looked for or cameras cameras in
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Speaker 1: his parking lot there where he lived. I would love
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Speaker 1: to find out if those cameras caught him cleaning out
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Speaker 1: his car the way that he was caught under surveillance,
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Speaker 1: not by cameras but by actual l law enforcement, cleaning
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Speaker 1: out his car, just in a weird way, cleaning it
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Speaker 1: and cleaning it and cleaning it obsessively outside his parents'
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Speaker 1: home in the Pocono's. I guarantee you he did the
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Speaker 1: same thing there in Pullman, outside his apartment, and he
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Speaker 1: has a big parking there's a big parking lot outside
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Speaker 1: of his apartment, a communal parking lot.
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Speaker 9: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And I guarantee you there are witnesses to him cleaning
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Speaker 1: out his car.
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Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm thinking about the silent witness You talked about
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Speaker 9: the CCTV potential here, Nancy. Can you imagine if he
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Speaker 9: is seen, if they have video captured, can you imagine
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Speaker 9: him actually taking backs after he's cleaned and putting them
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Speaker 9: in the car, and then he's going to convey them
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Speaker 9: somewhere else. You know, one of the big questions is
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Speaker 9: what happened to all of the stuff. What happened to
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Speaker 9: all of these potential items, particularly from a DNA standpoint,
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Speaker 9: from a blood evidence standpoint, that could tie him back
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Speaker 9: to this particular savage massacre. Had they been dumped off
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Speaker 9: in some dumpster that's far away from the apartment complex.
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Speaker 9: Did he take that much care? And here's something else,
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Speaker 9: you know, I work at a university, Nancy. It's like
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Speaker 9: a little city. Okay, it's vast. You've got dumpsters all
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Speaker 9: over the place. What if he went back onto campus
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Speaker 9: there in Pullman and just started throwing stuff away in
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Speaker 9: the random dumpsters. No one is going to be any
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Speaker 9: the wiser. However, I can tell you this about universities.
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Speaker 9: They've got CCTV everywhere. Okay, you're always being watched. I
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Speaker 9: really wonder if there's any video captures there from the
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Speaker 9: university parking lot going to dumpsters and putting stuff in
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Speaker 9: the dumpsters. There at Washington State.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, guys busted caught on video.
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Speaker 1: You're hearing doctor Bethany and Harmonio Rodriguez and Joseph Scott
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Speaker 1: Morgan describing could it would have should have all the
11:18
Speaker 1: evidence the prosecutor had to get the death penalty, but no,
11:23
Speaker 1: a weak plea. I would venture to guess that that
11:28
Speaker 1: prosecutor is the weak link in the judicial system, in
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Speaker 1: the justice system. That said, wait till you hear the
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Speaker 1: rest of his very casual conversation with the d m
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Speaker 1: V clerk, including about the murders. He just committed what.
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Speaker 5: Color the vehicle? And you have to know that the
12:02
Speaker 5: better package? Yeah? Did they not have that one? I
12:11
Speaker 5: couldn't find Okay, Yeah, shortage. I've done a couple of
12:20
Speaker 5: people that have like they wanted to wait a year
12:24
Speaker 5: for we delivered because they just.
12:25
Speaker 2: Didn't have it until a year later.
12:27
Speaker 5: Yeah.
12:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are the most popular and they're still bad.
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Speaker 10: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I am, Well, I'm from the Bear.
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Speaker 5: I'm hoping I'm actually from.
12:43
Speaker 2: Oh Okay hoping. You guys don't get I hope we do. So, Uh,
12:50
Speaker 2: you're from New York. How are you liking it over here?
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Speaker 10: Actually?
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Speaker 2: Oh, you're from Pennsylvania. Oh yeah, and then you were Yeah,
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Speaker 2: family is from brook So that's okay, that's fair.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean moving up to the Mayy and my
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Speaker 4: grandma and my dad were huge Giants said some like
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Speaker 4: falling in the family line.
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Speaker 1: I'm just I don't even know what to say. There
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Speaker 1: is Brian Coburger with blood probably still under his fingernails,
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Speaker 1: talking about are you a Giants fan? You know? To
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Speaker 1: Phillip D. Bay joining us uh veteran trial lawyer has
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Speaker 1: tried a lot of cases LA County Public Defender's Office.
13:39
Speaker 1: And you know what, the Public Defender's Office gets a
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Speaker 1: lot of grief because people think they're free. They get
13:44
Speaker 1: paid by the government. They try more cases than practically
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Speaker 1: any other defense attorney. They take all they have to take,
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Speaker 1: all the cases nobody else wants. In other words, they
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Speaker 1: get a lot of trial experience, just like prosecutors do.
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Speaker 1: You can't turn it down. It's yours, whether you want
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Speaker 1: it or not. That said debate, I'm not asking you
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Speaker 1: to reveal any client confidence. Of course, I wouldn't even
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Speaker 1: waste my breath on that. But in all of your
14:13
Speaker 1: years in court, have you ever known somebody who was
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Speaker 1: guilty and you look back and they're sitting across the
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Speaker 1: table talking to you about sports and food and restaurants
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Speaker 1: and activities and hobbies, and they're a stone cold killer.
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Speaker 1: It's really hard to reconcile.
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Speaker 11: That not for me, because I look at it from
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Speaker 11: a legal standpoint. I don't sit there and stand in
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Speaker 11: judgment of my client. It's almost like a doctor in
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Speaker 11: the er or in the ICU at a hospital who
14:45
Speaker 11: has to treat a gang banger who just sprayed up
14:48
Speaker 11: a neighborhood and he got shot back, and now he's
14:51
Speaker 11: in the hospital. The doctors still have a hipocratic oath
14:55
Speaker 11: to first do no harm and save the young man's life.
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Speaker 11: That's what we do in a legal context. We don't
15:02
Speaker 11: stand in judgment of our clients, and we do whatever
15:04
Speaker 11: we can to protect their legal interests. I don't have
15:08
Speaker 11: to like them.
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Speaker 1: Did I ask you if you judge them? Did I know?
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Speaker 1: I did not ask you if you judge them. I
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Speaker 1: don't judge my witnesses. They are what they are. I
15:20
Speaker 1: take them as they come. I asked you, Did it
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Speaker 1: ever dawn on you when you're having a casual convo
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Speaker 1: with a stone cold killer. That's kind of weird. That
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Speaker 1: never hit you.
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Speaker 11: Not really, maybe in the first ten years.
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Speaker 1: Okay, cut is Mike right now, because that's total bs lie.
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany. He would have to be do they would
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Speaker 1: have to be, have to have the emotions of like
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Speaker 1: a frog. You ever held a frog? Probably not? Have
15:53
Speaker 1: you ever held a frog and it looks at you
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Speaker 1: and it blinks and it has no emotion. It's cold blooded, right,
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Speaker 1: it feels nothing that was bs. Any thinking person would
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Speaker 1: get skithed out. And I know that's not one of
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Speaker 1: your psychological terms. When you know you've been sitting there
16:13
Speaker 1: talking to a stone cold killer. I don't mean a
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Speaker 1: person that gets angry in the heat of the moment
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Speaker 1: pulls the trigger. That's bad enough, But I mean stone
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Speaker 1: cold sets out to murder somebody, and in this case
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Speaker 1: for no reason, no anger, no revenge, no sex motive,
16:32
Speaker 1: no theft motive. Not that that murders any less horrible.
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Speaker 1: But my point is carrying on a conversation, a normal conversation,
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Speaker 1: and the whole time this guy could just reach over
16:47
Speaker 1: with a strap razor and slit youer throat and it
16:48
Speaker 1: be fine with it.
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Speaker 7: I do wonder, Nancy, when I see patients like that,
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Speaker 7: where I know they've committed a crime, or worse yet,
16:56
Speaker 7: they've come to therapy to actually gain some help in
17:00
Speaker 7: sealing the crime, or they're paranoid because they're about to
17:02
Speaker 7: be caught. I do have that even in my Beverly
17:05
Speaker 7: Hills office. And what's interesting is that their presentation is
17:09
Speaker 7: so smooth on the surface, and yet I know and
17:12
Speaker 7: they know I know something is going on. But furthermore,
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Speaker 7: when you look at Coburger's affect, his emotions, the way
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Speaker 7: he's talking to this woman, he is a really strange,
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Speaker 7: strange guy. There's no picture I've ever seen of him
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Speaker 7: where he looks normal, and anybody sitting in front of
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Speaker 7: him is going to have to wonder what the heck
17:32
Speaker 7: is going on. But Nancy, there's something more. The digital evidence.
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Speaker 7: The investigators that went through his phone determined what determined
17:40
Speaker 7: that he was quite obsessive and he had no friends
17:44
Speaker 7: other than his parents. So I believe that he's flirting
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Speaker 7: with this woman at the DMV because that's the only
17:52
Speaker 7: person he can kind of lock down into a conversation
17:55
Speaker 7: because it's the DMV, right, I mean, they're there to
17:58
Speaker 7: serve their customers dance. Did you know he called his
18:02
Speaker 7: mother at five o'clock every single morning, Then he called
18:07
Speaker 7: his parents again to fall asleep. He almost stalked and
18:11
Speaker 7: pestered his parents. He would text his mother saying five
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Speaker 7: o'clock question mark. She would text back five point thirty
18:19
Speaker 7: exclamation mark, exclamation mark like, don't call me so early
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Speaker 7: in the morning. So, you know, since they were his
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Speaker 7: only relationships, can you imagine he has the thirteen minutes
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Speaker 7: with this woman at the DNV. She's not sitting in
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Speaker 7: a bar with a drink, she knows she's safe, she
18:35
Speaker 7: knows she's behind the counter, so she's talking sports. And
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Speaker 7: that's probably a very new experience for him, given the
18:42
Speaker 7: fact that he probably creeped women out everywhere he went.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, why will nobody answer my question? Why
18:51
Speaker 1: I don't get it? It's a simple question. Now, I'm
18:53
Speaker 1: going to try with you. Pretty soon. I'll be going
18:56
Speaker 1: to Hermania Rodriguez. She's a reporter and may not have
18:59
Speaker 1: had this experience, but I think you have. Have you
19:02
Speaker 1: ever sat down with a stone cold killer and, in
19:07
Speaker 1: a retrospect look back and went he could just slip
19:10
Speaker 1: my throat. I thought about it. I don't think about
19:13
Speaker 1: it in the moment, like when I'm trumping through a
19:15
Speaker 1: housing project trying to find a witness. When I'm sitting
19:19
Speaker 1: across a table from a killer and we're talking about him,
19:24
Speaker 1: rolling over on his co defendant killer. It's later that
19:27
Speaker 1: I let I'm in the moment and I can't afford
19:31
Speaker 1: to think about anything other than what I'm doing. But later,
19:35
Speaker 1: if you allow yourself to think about it, how can
19:39
Speaker 1: someone be apparently so normal yet we know what he
19:46
Speaker 1: just did, We know what he just did. I mean,
19:50
Speaker 1: is nobody remembering what happened to Kelly? Kelly going solve this?
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Speaker 1: He hit her so hard and beat her so hard,
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Speaker 1: and not her teeth out, just stabbing her in the face,
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Speaker 1: in the face, in the face, the same thing to Maddie.
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Speaker 1: Just horrible, horrible desecration of their bodies and their beauty.
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Speaker 1: Not happy until the place was covered in blood. And
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Speaker 1: here he is chatting up at D and V Are
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Speaker 1: you a Giants fan? My rear end.
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Speaker 9: That's the brutality of it, because the thing about it
20:28
Speaker 9: is he can slip in and out of this world
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Speaker 9: that we exist in, even after having participated in this
20:35
Speaker 9: kind of event. And yeah, in answer to your question,
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Speaker 9: when as an investigator, when you're talking to somebody, you're
20:42
Speaker 9: in that moment you're trying to elicit information from them.
20:46
Speaker 9: And I have had those moments, Nancy, where I go
20:48
Speaker 9: to a very dark place afterwards, when I have time
20:51
Speaker 9: to think about who I was just in dwelling the
20:53
Speaker 9: same space with who I was just breathing the same oxygen,
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Speaker 9: and I think about what kind of horror that they
21:01
Speaker 9: have just committed, maybe multiple times over and over again,
21:05
Speaker 9: but yet I'm trying to get information out of them.
21:08
Speaker 9: And so yeah, it's a really dark place to go to.
21:11
Speaker 9: But you see this kind of psychopathy with him. And
21:14
Speaker 9: again I'm getting into doctor Bethany's face. I apologize for that,
21:17
Speaker 9: but you have to admit when you see these images
21:20
Speaker 9: from the scene, Nancy, and I know you have as
21:23
Speaker 9: well as I have as well, this place is blood saturated,
21:27
Speaker 9: and this kind of drives home the point of what
21:30
Speaker 9: an animalistic event this was at the scene, and that
21:33
Speaker 9: he can flip the switch turning on and off, and
21:36
Speaker 9: you know, he's got that kind of I don't know
21:38
Speaker 9: why it looks like do you remember back in the
21:40
Speaker 9: sixties when they had the chimpanzees that would smile blankly,
21:44
Speaker 9: you know, they had those that chimpanzee smile. That's what
21:48
Speaker 9: he looks at like, you know, the dead eyes kind
21:50
Speaker 9: of the fake smile, looking back and forth and I
21:52
Speaker 9: think that that might be what doctor Bethany's talking about,
21:55
Speaker 9: where it's just very very dark. There's a disconnect here
21:58
Speaker 9: where he has no remorse whatsoever. He has no certainly
22:03
Speaker 9: had no compassion at that moment, Tom, And here we
22:06
Speaker 9: are dangling in the wind all of this time. Later
22:09
Speaker 9: they topped this plea on this guy and he never
22:12
Speaker 9: alcued in.
22:13
Speaker 1: Any crime stories with Nancy Gray.
22:26
Speaker 3: One of our one of the roommates has passed out
22:29
Speaker 3: and she was drunk last night and shn wake me up.
22:33
Speaker 2: Okay.
22:33
Speaker 1: Oh, and they saw some man in their house as night.
22:36
Speaker 10: Yeah, I just been.
22:39
Speaker 12: Are you with the patient?
22:40
Speaker 2: Okay?
22:40
Speaker 3: I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it.
22:43
Speaker 1: Around, and I just tell you what happened very much.
22:46
Speaker 1: What is going on currently as someone passed out right now?
22:50
Speaker 1: I don't really know what pretty much Thorian.
22:53
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I need to know what's going on right now.
22:54
Speaker 2: If someone has passed out, can you find that out?
22:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll come come on with musical check.
23:01
Speaker 9: We have to one of the galasy yell and something.
23:04
Speaker 10: There's somebody in the house or somebody When I.
23:08
Speaker 3: Heard you coming, you say as a signarectus.
23:12
Speaker 10: They may have never.
23:13
Speaker 1: Against We can only wonder how a jury would have
23:17
Speaker 1: reacted seeing this video. Now, the defense would try to
23:21
Speaker 1: stop it at trial, claiming it was irrelevant, which is
23:25
Speaker 1: one of the weakest objections you can raise a trial. Why,
23:30
Speaker 1: because it doesn't hold anything on appeal. What do I
23:33
Speaker 1: mean by that? If you make an objection at trial
23:37
Speaker 1: and you say objection irrelevant, you're not preserving anything for
23:42
Speaker 1: appellate review. That does not qualify as an appealable error.
23:49
Speaker 1: You have to say something like objection, inflammatory objection, hearsay objection.
23:56
Speaker 1: It's not the highest and best evidence. You have to
23:59
Speaker 1: have a real foundation, not just interrupting the other lawyer's
24:03
Speaker 1: flow of questioning. When somebody when a defense attorney or
24:07
Speaker 1: prosecutor objection irrelevant, it's usually overruled. Once in a while,
24:11
Speaker 1: you might you might get a sustain But the defense
24:15
Speaker 1: would try to stop this as being irrelevant because they
24:19
Speaker 1: don't want the jury to see his cold and dupliculous,
24:24
Speaker 1: really nature that he can be a killer and act
24:28
Speaker 1: like a normal guy like nothing ever happened, which totally
24:33
Speaker 1: would freak the jury out. But the prosecutor would raise
24:39
Speaker 1: one day respond that the jury can consider evidence before
24:45
Speaker 1: during and after the crime, so this would have been
24:50
Speaker 1: allowed at trial, this would be in front of the jury.
24:56
Speaker 1: And I'm very curious to know what you think as
24:59
Speaker 1: you are watching Brian Coburger, a stone cold killer of
25:05
Speaker 1: defenseless co eds, half asleep with a knife a k bar,
25:14
Speaker 1: just imagine him going from room to room, slaughtering, slaughtering
25:21
Speaker 1: those four students and liking it, then turning up at
25:28
Speaker 1: the d m V to get a new license and
25:31
Speaker 1: a new tag and carrying on completely normal conversation. You
25:38
Speaker 1: hear the word, the phraseology, the description doctor Jekyll, mister
25:42
Speaker 1: Hyde a lot, this is him. Let's watch.
25:47
Speaker 2: Or I am I am origin.
25:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, and I like living up here much better
25:56
Speaker 5: than already.
25:59
Speaker 2: You have the order from when you bought it. Yeah,
26:03
Speaker 2: he's different, right.
26:06
Speaker 4: Because when I remember, I like, and I would say,
26:11
Speaker 4: but the kind.
26:13
Speaker 2: Of right now.
26:17
Speaker 1: She says, I like how small quiet, and I would
26:20
Speaker 1: say safe. But the whole Moscow thing kind of makes
26:23
Speaker 1: it feel a little less safe. And at that point,
26:28
Speaker 1: Harmonia Rodriguez Palleo, investigative journalist, he clams up. He doesn't
26:34
Speaker 1: say anything, He just stands there, goes quiet. Did you
26:38
Speaker 1: notice that.
26:39
Speaker 12: It's so creepy and shocking considering how he was acting
26:43
Speaker 12: just seconds before, one could even argue they were a
26:46
Speaker 12: little bit of flirting, just talking about sports, how nice
26:50
Speaker 12: the area is until that moment, and it's truly chilling
26:55
Speaker 12: because the moment she mentions the.
26:56
Speaker 8: Murders, Brian Coberger's mask sort of slips and he's all
27:02
Speaker 8: of a sudden not so talkative and just given one
27:05
Speaker 8: word answers. It's really fascinating to watch that mask.
27:09
Speaker 1: Fall off, and that doctor Bethany Marshall is what we
27:13
Speaker 1: made by nonverbal communication. He immediately switches the conversation to
27:19
Speaker 1: I think the weather.
27:21
Speaker 7: Yes, Nancy. Sociopaths where what I've called so many times
27:26
Speaker 7: the mask of sanity. It's not my term, it's a
27:29
Speaker 7: research term, and that means that they can act and
27:32
Speaker 7: pass as normal in society even though there's so much
27:36
Speaker 7: going on underneath the surface. And in fact, with Coburger,
27:39
Speaker 7: one of the things we know was going on beneath
27:42
Speaker 7: the surface was that most of the searches on his
27:45
Speaker 7: phone were for non con sexual sex pornography. There was
27:49
Speaker 7: no search for normal pornography. It was all non consensual
27:53
Speaker 7: whatever that means. So he's in this situation where the
27:57
Speaker 7: mask starts to slip just a little bit because she
28:01
Speaker 7: brought it up, and he clams up. I think he's thinking,
28:04
Speaker 7: you know, he's an obsessive guy. He's probably going through
28:07
Speaker 7: his mind wondering what she knows, what everybody else knows.
28:11
Speaker 7: And also he doesn't have the power in that situation.
28:14
Speaker 7: Have you ever been to the TMV.
28:16
Speaker 1: They have the power. You don't have the power.
28:18
Speaker 7: So he's in a situation where he has to like
28:21
Speaker 7: play nice, follow the rules, get his tags. He can't intimidate, threaten,
28:27
Speaker 7: or stand over her like he did all the university
28:30
Speaker 7: students when he was a teacher's aide, right, or the
28:33
Speaker 7: women at the bars where he was so creepy and
28:36
Speaker 7: standing over them that the bartenders and the bar owners
28:40
Speaker 7: had to ask him to leave. No, this is the DMV.
28:43
Speaker 7: He has to act and pass as normal. But even there, Nancy,
28:47
Speaker 7: it's hard for him to do that. That's what we
28:49
Speaker 7: see when he clams up. And of course the big
28:51
Speaker 7: Tael is the big rubber gloves.
28:55
Speaker 1: I was just looking at everyone else there. Nobody else
28:58
Speaker 1: is wearing gloves to you. Philip Dubay, veteran trial lawyer
29:03
Speaker 1: joining us out of the la jurisdiction, Philip, how would
29:06
Speaker 1: you keep the jury from seeing this video?
29:10
Speaker 11: To be honest with you, I don't have a problem
29:12
Speaker 11: with him seeing it. You got to remember the time
29:14
Speaker 11: of year when was this December. It's probably colder than
29:18
Speaker 11: an arctic outhouse there, and the man can put some
29:21
Speaker 11: gloves on a key form. He's just coming in from
29:23
Speaker 11: the outdoors, so people who are working there behind the
29:26
Speaker 11: counter probably have a space heater and some warmth going on.
29:30
Speaker 11: So I think that would be unfair to judge him
29:32
Speaker 11: based on that. Now, when she does bring up the
29:34
Speaker 11: moscow for a murder, he does get a little skittish.
29:37
Speaker 11: He starts shipping his weight around, he goes from one
29:39
Speaker 11: foot to the next, and he's looking a little paranoid,
29:42
Speaker 11: obsessive and frank little scared. But he manages to still
29:46
Speaker 11: engage in the pleasantries in the small talk to throw
29:49
Speaker 11: anybody and everybody off the scent. So I don't find
29:53
Speaker 11: anything unusual about this. And moreover, one final point. Remember
29:57
Speaker 11: he is a non resident of Washington, so they have
30:00
Speaker 11: what's called the thirty and one hundred and eighty three
30:03
Speaker 11: day rule, meaning that he's got to get his tags
30:06
Speaker 11: and his plates current within the thirty day and one
30:09
Speaker 11: hundred and eighty three day period, especially if he has
30:12
Speaker 11: a job. Otherwise he can be sighted and fined and
30:15
Speaker 11: maybe even do some jail time and have his car
30:18
Speaker 11: impounded and stored.
30:20
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for the dissertation on the traffic law
30:23
Speaker 1: to just Scott Morgan so to hear debate, tell it
30:28
Speaker 1: he's absolutely fine. If his client is having a convo
30:33
Speaker 1: and it's caught on tape and the woman says, I'm
30:36
Speaker 1: really scared of the you know, after the Moscow, the
30:40
Speaker 1: Moscow murders, and their client goes, isn't the weather awesome?
30:46
Speaker 1: I love the sun. How do you feel about the sun?
30:48
Speaker 1: That doesn't bother you?
30:50
Speaker 9: Of course it would, particularly now in hindsight, knowing what
30:53
Speaker 9: we know from this perspective, what had just occurred. Just
30:58
Speaker 9: you know, well, let's break it down. Within hours of
31:02
Speaker 9: preceding him walking into this place, you know, they're still
31:06
Speaker 9: out at the scene at this point. Nancy. I think
31:09
Speaker 9: that that's very important here because we're focused on him,
31:11
Speaker 9: and I know that we have the videography of him there.
31:15
Speaker 9: But let's think about this just for a moment. They're
31:18
Speaker 9: still out there Nancy, they're still out there working that
31:22
Speaker 9: scene at that particular time. The bodies have not necessarily
31:27
Speaker 9: been sent to families at this point in time. But
31:30
Speaker 9: yet there he is and all of his glory on CCTV.
31:35
Speaker 9: You know, people are still scratching their heads over this
31:37
Speaker 9: thing at this point time. You remember what it was
31:40
Speaker 9: like during that period of time we were thinking, you know,
31:42
Speaker 9: is this beast walking up and down the street? Who
31:45
Speaker 9: is this individual? And there he is. There, he is
31:48
Speaker 9: in full and living color on CCTV, acting like he's
31:53
Speaker 9: just you know, showing up, you know, to change out
31:56
Speaker 9: his tags. And yeah, you can see that she grabs
31:59
Speaker 9: his attention as soon as the Moscow uh crimes come
32:03
Speaker 9: up at that moment, tom uh. And again that adds
32:07
Speaker 9: another level of chill to this.
32:09
Speaker 2: Nancy, you're going to the university audability? Did you give
32:26
Speaker 2: the title?
32:32
Speaker 11: Okay?
32:32
Speaker 2: So that is it is like you really like me?
32:35
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now you want to do sales, i'd you know,
32:40
Speaker 5: I always do it with like a lily big university, you.
32:43
Speaker 2: Know, but I will hear that many people. Wow, we do,
32:47
Speaker 2: but I do hear good things. You know, they got
32:49
Speaker 2: good comform stuff. So we do a good program.
32:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, so plan around holding for a little while doing
32:58
Speaker 4: the program, and then.
33:00
Speaker 2: You were like, yeah, I do, like okay, but yeah, I.
33:13
Speaker 1: Talk about a self important snoot, Bethany, did you hear that? Hey,
33:17
Speaker 1: do you get the university here?
33:19
Speaker 5: Yeah?
33:19
Speaker 1: PhD, I'm definitely not an undergrad. And then she.
33:24
Speaker 7: Says impressive, like he's he's moving towards bregging and posturing
33:29
Speaker 7: at that point. Probably what he does everywhere in his life, right,
33:33
Speaker 7: he tries to brag and insert himself into positions of
33:37
Speaker 7: superiority and importance, and so it's like it it just
33:42
Speaker 7: takes only a couple minutes, Nancy before he starts to
33:47
Speaker 7: brag and become grandiose and circle back to what a
33:50
Speaker 7: great guy he is.
33:52
Speaker 3: And then ultimately her walking up, I heard her scream
33:55
Speaker 3: and she ran downstairs because she saw someone. That's what
33:58
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure she said. She's someone's here and she's screaming,
34:01
Speaker 3: just randomn series and I called for a name. They
34:04
Speaker 3: jumped up in long twin to works. I was so scared,
34:09
Speaker 3: and I heard someone in the bathroom when I heard
34:11
Speaker 3: her crying, and I heard some guys you're gonna be
34:13
Speaker 3: okay to help you. And I kept calling your name,
34:16
Speaker 3: but she wasn't answering, and then he calls mommy speaks.
34:20
Speaker 1: Nearly an hour driving around the crime scene, Brian.
34:26
Speaker 7: Coberger did not pretend he was saying it was. It
34:30
Speaker 7: was apparent to everybody around him.
34:34
Speaker 1: Literally, just hours after committing for brutal, cold blooded murders,
34:41
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger waltzes into the DMV to get a new
34:44
Speaker 1: tag and a license. How he kept his straight face
34:49
Speaker 1: and carried on normal conversation is a wonder. It's a curiosity.
34:54
Speaker 1: Let's listen.
34:55
Speaker 4: You title the nail and about her and eye out
34:59
Speaker 4: for that have been you tell the less now because
35:02
Speaker 4: we can reassure ye would make sure the one would
35:08
Speaker 4: on the back of the and the one who on
35:10
Speaker 4: the front, and I will and.
35:12
Speaker 2: We walk him now. So if you ever tell, like, yeah.
35:22
Speaker 5: What the front peculiar, I don't know.
35:29
Speaker 2: We're like one of the like only things to require
35:31
Speaker 2: boat and I always wondering you're all set good to go,
35:36
Speaker 2: and they'll be like New York and.
35:39
Speaker 6: Okay cabsol oh and the Pennsylvania like on the vehicle
35:43
Speaker 6: you double Pennsylvania and.
35:45
Speaker 2: My birthdays have required the back or they are a
35:48
Speaker 2: little Carkay. Yeah, you would be good. I always chext
35:56
Speaker 2: a lot of their games, so nate to do. Yeah, yeah,
36:02
Speaker 2: real good one. Yeah you have a great weekend.
36:09
Speaker 5: Than you.
36:14
Speaker 1: Did Joe Scott Morgan. Did you hear him say have
36:16
Speaker 1: a good one?
36:17
Speaker 9: Yeah? Actually I did. You know, just business as usual, right, Uh,
36:22
Speaker 9: going back out to the car and uh, I guess
36:25
Speaker 9: tooling back off to his apartment there on campus at
36:29
Speaker 9: Washington State University. Nancy, Yeah, just very calm, collected, Uh
36:33
Speaker 9: at that moment, Tom And again, I think that this
36:36
Speaker 9: is some kind of gait that he kind of passed
36:38
Speaker 9: through here. You know, it's kind of testing the waters.
36:40
Speaker 9: I wonder if this is the first time he was
36:42
Speaker 9: out and about after these events, you know, did he
36:45
Speaker 9: decide to Yeah, well, I think I'll just go out
36:47
Speaker 9: and to it looks like it's really illuminated out there.
36:50
Speaker 9: I think I'll just go out in the sunny day
36:52
Speaker 9: and get my car and run down to the DMV,
36:55
Speaker 9: stick my toe in the water and see if any
36:57
Speaker 9: anybody emerges from around the counter are around the corner
37:01
Speaker 9: to put the bracelets on me and haul me away.
37:03
Speaker 9: And he passed that gate, didn't he? So you know,
37:06
Speaker 9: I begin to think about that, and then reflectively, I
37:10
Speaker 9: think again about the absolute destruction and horror that he
37:15
Speaker 9: left in his wake at that apartment or at that
37:19
Speaker 9: house there on King Road. Uh So, for me, you know,
37:24
Speaker 9: trying to trying to balance these two things out, his
37:27
Speaker 9: appearance at that at that at that counter, and then
37:29
Speaker 9: what had happened is really hard to try to understand.
37:33
Speaker 9: But Nancy, you know, they never said criminal investigation is easy.
37:36
Speaker 9: Certainly not when you're talking about a massacre on this scale.
37:41
Speaker 1: Also, tonight we have obtained body can I want you
37:45
Speaker 1: to hear it as well.
37:47
Speaker 13: We're gonna seal his bath way up here pretty quickly.
37:50
Speaker 13: All four victims are the funeral homes. Once we get
37:54
Speaker 13: evid his stuff, I'm accountable. I'm going to leave here
37:58
Speaker 13: and they'll come back and the morn of the Yeah,
38:01
Speaker 13: you get to a place where you're you're good to
38:03
Speaker 13: stop and to stop and we'll just pick up morning.
38:09
Speaker 10: She heard something around four o'clock this morning. She said
38:14
Speaker 10: it was one of the victims playing the dolic What
38:17
Speaker 10: she thought it was she had heard that Saint victim
38:20
Speaker 10: he yeld something to the effect of or someone in
38:22
Speaker 10: the house. She opened up her door, thought she saw
38:26
Speaker 10: someone at the top of the stairs shut her go.
38:31
Speaker 10: A little bit later, a few minutes later, she heard
38:33
Speaker 10: female crying she thought again with the saying victim, it
38:35
Speaker 10: may not have been crying in the bathroom, and heard
38:38
Speaker 10: of male voice that.
38:39
Speaker 2: She could not recognize, saying something to blind of.
38:42
Speaker 10: The affects of it's okay, I'm here for you. A
38:45
Speaker 10: little bit later after that, she opened up the door
38:47
Speaker 10: again and saw a male dressed in black kind of
38:51
Speaker 10: hay moll with lo her some type of playing mask
38:54
Speaker 10: over his face, standing by the back of the door
38:56
Speaker 10: near the slider. She played these occasion based offer the.
39:00
Speaker 8: Putouts in the eyes.
39:02
Speaker 10: They made hiphn attacks and shared her a heart and
39:04
Speaker 10: she's pretty sure down the way from and shortly after
39:09
Speaker 10: that she called the other roommate downstairs, and he knows
39:12
Speaker 10: or someone in the house together for me, said I'm
39:15
Speaker 10: down hearing the second piece as he went down there.
39:18
Speaker 1: That is a stark contrast. You're talking about Joe Scott Morgan.
39:21
Speaker 1: You've got him at the DMV saying hey, have a
39:24
Speaker 1: good one. Right after this where the roommate realizes her
39:30
Speaker 1: four others, the four others have been murdered and she
39:35
Speaker 1: somehow was spared and she looked at the killer in
39:40
Speaker 1: the eyes and somehow escaped death. And you hear it
39:44
Speaker 1: start off, all four victims on the way to the
39:46
Speaker 1: funeral home. I mean, that is just like a slap,
39:50
Speaker 1: a cold slap in the face for the victims' families,
39:54
Speaker 1: all four on the way to the funeral home, just
39:55
Speaker 1: so casually tossed off.
39:58
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it is. And you know, I go back
40:00
Speaker 9: to what the police officer stated relative to the comment
40:05
Speaker 9: that Coburger made about I'm here to help you. I
40:09
Speaker 9: wonder if he had that same stupid grin on his
40:11
Speaker 9: face with his dead eyes as he was saying that
40:14
Speaker 9: there and in amongst that blood bath that he had created,
40:18
Speaker 9: and again in this kind of pass a way, you know,
40:22
Speaker 9: just like he's talking at the counter right here, almost robotic, right,
40:26
Speaker 9: I wonder if that's the way he treated those victims
40:29
Speaker 9: inside of that environment, did he ever did his blood
40:32
Speaker 9: pressure ever increase, did his pulse rate ever increase? Or
40:37
Speaker 9: was he just an absolute animal? And again, removing the
40:42
Speaker 9: bodies from the scene, and you're you know, this is
40:44
Speaker 9: kind of one of the first times that we've really
40:46
Speaker 9: heard this, this very intimate information about the bodies being
40:50
Speaker 9: removed from the scene so that they can go to
40:53
Speaker 9: the funeral home and then be transported over for the
40:56
Speaker 9: autopsies that would follow later. And again, so back to
41:00
Speaker 9: this idea that he's at the DMV while all of
41:03
Speaker 9: this is happening, and again this is that night, but
41:07
Speaker 9: just thinking that they're still out there processing the scene.
41:10
Speaker 9: Remember what the police officer said, he said, we'll come
41:13
Speaker 9: back in the morning and we'll get started again. I
41:16
Speaker 9: guess at first light, they're still working this scene, Nancy,
41:19
Speaker 9: in real time. I think a lot of people forget
41:21
Speaker 9: about that, and particularly you match it up with his
41:24
Speaker 9: interaction at the DMV, and it really sends a chill up,
41:27
Speaker 9: respond doctor Bethany.
41:29
Speaker 1: Listening to Joe Scott talking just then, I guess when
41:33
Speaker 1: you're a victim of violent crime, it never goes away.
41:40
Speaker 1: Because when I heard the body cam all four victims
41:43
Speaker 1: there on the way to the funeral home, and then
41:45
Speaker 1: I heard Joe Scott talking about it. I remember when
41:48
Speaker 1: my fiance was murdered. It didn't seem real. I thought,
41:51
Speaker 1: if I can just get to him, I can fix it.
41:54
Speaker 1: He said, a car accident. Maybe this is wrong, And
41:57
Speaker 1: then I saw my pastor write Burnstain funeral Home. I
42:02
Speaker 1: can remember that, it just happened. I wonder if the
42:09
Speaker 1: victim's parents have heard that body cam. They haven't. I mean,
42:13
Speaker 1: they've seen a lot worse. But there's just something about
42:16
Speaker 1: the finality and a funeral home and the smell of
42:21
Speaker 1: all those fake flowers.
42:23
Speaker 3: It's just.
42:25
Speaker 1: Just makes it all real, you.
42:28
Speaker 7: Know, Nancy. There's such a finality to death, and how
42:32
Speaker 7: a loved one dies is important. I lost a husband
42:35
Speaker 7: to cancer many years ago, and I'll never forget him
42:39
Speaker 7: being wheeled out on a stretcher to go to the
42:41
Speaker 7: funeral home. And it was the look he was in
42:45
Speaker 7: the body bank. I couldn't see his face anymore. He
42:48
Speaker 7: had died in our home. And anything that is reminiscent
42:52
Speaker 7: of that reminds me of that night. Even the color black,
42:56
Speaker 7: even the word funeral home, any tiny little thing and
43:00
Speaker 7: cause that kind of a flashback. And there's something so
43:03
Speaker 7: tragic about this scene. I want to point out the
43:07
Speaker 7: DMV clerk says, you're good to go. I think she's
43:11
Speaker 7: trying to push them along. At that point. She has
43:14
Speaker 7: the power to push them along. She's behind the counter,
43:17
Speaker 7: she's safe. Did you see that dog in the video.
43:20
Speaker 7: There's a dog running around.
43:21
Speaker 3: You know.
43:22
Speaker 7: Her friends and colleagues are all around her. These four
43:26
Speaker 7: victims in this home could not move him along. They
43:30
Speaker 7: could not They were half asleep. He had a cabar knife.
43:34
Speaker 7: He's more powerful than them. They're not in a safe place.
43:39
Speaker 7: Like the DMV worker Nancy. His biggest preoccupation coburgers was
43:44
Speaker 7: a guy named Danny Rawlings, the Gainesville ripper, who committed
43:48
Speaker 7: a similar crime, targeted college students, dressed in black, used
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Speaker 7: a k bar knife, sexually assaulted the victims. First, I
43:57
Speaker 7: do believe this could have been worse. I do believe
44:00
Speaker 7: something happened where he was not able to sexually assault
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Speaker 7: them before committing the crime. Perhaps he was too inexperienced.
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Speaker 7: A novice got interrupted, heard a noise. We cannot imagine
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Speaker 7: what happened. We cannot imagine how the parents feel. But
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Speaker 7: trust me, every day they are thinking about the loss
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Speaker 7: of their kids, and they are going in horrifying detail
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Speaker 7: over all the all the interactions, all the details, all
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Speaker 7: the horrors at that night, and just hoping their children
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Speaker 7: were spared the worst.
44:37
Speaker 1: To the Moscow victims rest in peace, and to their families.
44:46
Speaker 1: God Speed to you. You are still in so many prayers.
44:51
Speaker 1: We remember an American hero, Officer Adam Buckner to SONPD,
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Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving
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Speaker 1: wife now widow. American hero Officer Adam Buckner Nancy Grace
45:07
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,