Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 4: More Than My Closet

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Ep. 4: More Than My Closet · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

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Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
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My name is Alyssa.
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And my name's Bri.
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We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
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We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
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word.
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And apparently that's controversial.
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It's a bit comfy.
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Hello and welcome to episode four of We Are More.
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It's episode four already.
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How did we get here?
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Through episodes one through three.
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Oh, thank you.
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That was helpful.
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There we go.
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Energy.
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Energy.
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So today we're going to be talking about modesty.
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And we're pretty excited to hit this one because this is deeply ingrained in both of our histories.
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I know.
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And like you said the other day, we're going to hit some of the major topics within the
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first couple episodes.
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But don't you be afraid.
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We're going to roll back around to dig even deeper into each topic.
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We just kind of wanted to give the basics for anybody who's, whether you're starting
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out on this path or wondering why we believe what we believe, just to kind of give all
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of it at once and then like Free said, come back and dig a little deeper.
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Listen to the first four episodes and then if you hate us, leave.
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Good.
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That's a great message.
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If you like us, stick around for more.
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We are fun.
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We're more fun with wine.
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We don't have that tonight.
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So it is what it is.
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We were first going to kind of go into a little bit of what we were taught growing up in conservative
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evangelical churches, whether that came from like our parents, our family, our church,
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our society.
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And because I think if you didn't grow up in the world that we grew up in, this was
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not normal.
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So Bri, what were some things that were normal in your world?
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Like you cannot wear this.
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When we were younger, it was like two piece bathing suits.
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And then we graduated to like tankinis and that was like, woo wee.
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Like major.
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No short shorts.
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Short shorts.
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Short skirts, like mini skirts were very in style for a while and that was not a thing
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for us.
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Now, to be fair, some of it is just like safety purposes as a kid.
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And I totally get that.
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But this was more like Christianity based rules, I would say.
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Well it all comes back to modesty.
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Like it wasn't, now I can't say what, like what our parents reasoning was behind it,
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but what the reasoning, like the reasoning that we were given, the message behind why
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we had all these rules was because that's what God wants of you for a lot of reasons
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and we'll go into those as we record.
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But I think one of the big results of all of that for me, and I think that this is for
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both of us really, was kind of learning to be ashamed of our bodies.
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Yeah, and I feel like that is a huge topic that we're gonna dig even deeper into.
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But yeah, even if you're the skinniest person in the world, even if you're the thinnest
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person and you have the best shape and you should have all the confidence in the world,
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if you grow up being told you can't show that, you can't do this, you're gonna make someone
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else stumble, you're gonna feel ashamed of your body.
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Your body that God created that you have no control over is gonna make someone else sin.
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And so that makes you ashamed of yourself and your existence, honestly.
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Well and like for me, based on my body type, clothes were not made to fit someone with
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my body type.
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The junior section at Kohl's did not have stuff built to fit me.
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And so I was stuck either wearing clothes for women much older than myself, or wearing
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clothes that I was told were inappropriate.
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Everything had to have a tank top.
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Now I know that that was like early 2000s fashion was all about the layering.
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But my gosh, the layering.
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Like you can wear a sundress, but you also want to wear jeans underneath.
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One of the things that like really sticks out to me from my childhood was my... and
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okay love my parents.
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Don't get me wrong here.
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Hi mom, hi dad.
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Hi mom and dad.
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But they would always tell me to pull my shirt up higher because you know, you can't get
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it quite high enough.
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And so they would do... and I can't show you guys because...
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It's a podcast.
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But they would like mimic like pulling your shirt up, like pinching your shirt and pulling
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it up.
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And people caught on to this.
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Like other family members and friends would catch on to the fact that they were doing
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that.
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And so they would do it to me too.
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And again, I love all these people.
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You're not the only one.
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I got that too.
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Yeah.
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And it's just like it immediately makes you feel very conscious of your body in a very
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negative way.
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And they're looking at you there.
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I think that's a huge thing.
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Like, hey, if it bothers you, don't look.
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Well also we were teenagers.
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Nobody should have been looking.
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Now not just in the Christian circles, just like as women in general, I remember to like
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shout out to all the band camp kids.
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One of the rules at band camp was you weren't allowed to show your bra straps.
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Oh, they got so mad.
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They were so mad.
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And it's like as high school girls, it's hot.
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You're marching outside all day.
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Like you don't want to wear a t-shirt.
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You want to wear something that has less clothing, less material on it because you're burning
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hot.
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And the counselors would go around and there was one lady that would duct tape your bra
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straps together.
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So they were out of sight.
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And I'm like, are you kidding me?
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Is it that like, am I going to make the high school boys freak out that much?
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Because you can say a piece of sweaty fabric that holds up my boobs.
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Well, but think about how like that verges on assaults to, cause she would just come
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up behind you with tape.
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Like it wasn't like, let me pull you aside nicely and have a conversation.
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She would violently come up to you with tape and strap you down.
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Good luck getting that off too.
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And how embarrassing for a teenage girl.
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It draws way more attention than just a bra strap slipping.
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And thinking back on that is horrific to me.
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Horrifying.
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Like why are we doing this to girls?
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Horrifying.
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And, and like Bri said, that was not in the Christian circles even.
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So this is not a, this is not a Christian specific issue.
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Even though it does, it does lend itself to the Christian sphere in a lot of ways.
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Different denominations, different segments of Christianity believe different things about
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modesty.
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So you'll see the more extreme people like you think the Duggars, where like heaven forbid
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you show an ankle.
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All women should wear skirts and dresses at all times.
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Your hair is your pride and joy.
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So don't cut that like Samson.
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But then there's much more relaxed, like non-denominational views.
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So you kind of in Christianity get several different beliefs on modesty.
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But I think what we should dive into today is like, where does it all stem from?
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What does the Bible specifically say about modesty?
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Right.
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Well, and it, I think it extends to a lot of places.
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So we're, we're looking at some notes here too.
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Oh, I'm illiterate.
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I can't read.
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Oh, poor Bri.
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Oh, it's really hard for me.
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So hard.
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I mean, it is nine o'clock.
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I'm reading the notes.
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Denim jackets and maxi skirts.
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Yes!
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Not that I don't like those things.
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Bri likes to look like a youth pastor.
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I do.
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I think part of what we wanted to talk about too, and this might just need to be moved
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to a different area.
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But it all comes in on modesty because it's not just the clothes that you wear.
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It's tattoos, it's piercings, it's makeup, it's all of the things that are put on women.
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And with women, especially when it comes to all of these things, there's such a fine line
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we have to walk.
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Don't be tempting to men, but also don't be ugly.
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Yeah, I would say, oh my gosh, yes, because don't be too tempting, but also put on your
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makeup.
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Right.
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And don't wear those clothes, but also don't look like a bum.
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Don't be frumpy.
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Yeah.
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Come to church in your best.
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Yes.
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Ugh!
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We'll get there.
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We'll get there!
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And it's like, Brie and I are very into our makeup.
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We've always been, we watch the YouTube videos, you know, we buy the faint stuff, whatever.
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And that looks down upon, has been looked down upon in our circles because we put on
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too much eyeliner, there's too much contouring going on, for whatever reason, you know.
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If your nose looks too structured, ever for a bit.
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Or like we would wear, I had gray lipstick and you had the green lipstick, right?
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I did.
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So that's too much.
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You've gone too far with the makeup.
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But if I walk into church with not an ounce of makeup on my face, I'm also going to get
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crap.
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Like you should look your absolute best walking into church.
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God doesn't want to see that.
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And I will probably say this 10 times in this podcast.
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Everything that I can possibly do is going to impress the Creator.
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The Creator of the heavens and the earth.
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No amount of makeup that I put on my body or clothes is going to make him go, wow, she
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looks great today.
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I was like, oh, she really put in the effort.
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But I mean, think about that.
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Break that down.
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Not just the God of the universe, but the God that made your face.
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The God that made your body.
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We think we're going to impress him with the right amount of highlighter and a turtleneck.
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Like no, we're not going to do that.
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What do they say about that aesthetic?
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It's like the Christian girl autumn or something like that aesthetic.
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Blue jean and turtlenecks.
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So let's go into what biblical modesty actually means.
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Because modesty is only mentioned a couple times in the scripture.
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And it's not what we think of as modesty today.
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It's very different.
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So I got ragey one time talking about modesty with someone and I came home and researched
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it and I wrote down an essay.
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She sent me a picture at like midnight.
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Because I'm just like we've talked about before, like the fire in our veins, like in that song,
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it just it riles you up.
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I think it's important to mention, like you said, I think last week, two weeks ago, last
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last episode, the Bible was written for everyone, but not to everyone.
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So whoever was writing these passages about modesty in the Bible, it wasn't specifically
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to 2024, Elizabeth Breanna.
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It was written to, you know, Mary Magdalene, I don't know, was written to the Israelites
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back in right around Jesus's time.
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So just like a quick Google search on like what verses bring up modesty, you'll pretty
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quickly find First Timothy two, and then I chose like eight through 10.
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And it says, in every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up
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to God free from anger and controversy.
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I want to pause on that one for a minute.
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How often are we hearing about in church, free from anger and controversy men?
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Because hello, father, full of rage.
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How often are you lifting up your holy hands?
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Sorry, dad, sorry dad.
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Continuing on, verse nine, and I want women to be modest in their appearance.
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They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the
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way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
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This is specifically like in church in worship.
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Don't stand out.
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Right.
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Don't go crazy.
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And then it goes on to say, for women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves
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attractive by the good things they do.
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So here we go.
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Women can't wear their wedding ring.
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So from that passage, I understood we shouldn't be ragey.
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I shouldn't do my hair crazy in church and stop wearing your wedding rings and your Michael
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course and your coach.
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Well, that's really hurtful, Brianna, and I feel very attacked.
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But it doesn't mention anything other than don't wear your hair crazy and don't wear
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your most expensive items.
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Which let's point out, that's exactly what we're doing at church.
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Right.
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That's what we've always been taught to do.
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We're all about appearance at church, it seems like, at least in the churches that I've been
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in.
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But you're always about the outside and not necessarily what's inside.
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Well, I mean, think about when we were kids, and again, part of this is just of the times,
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but we had Sunday dresses.
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You think of your Sunday best.
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We had the fanciest dresses that we owned were to go to church in.
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And the same thing nowadays, like it's a little bit different, obviously, because I'm not
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wearing a dress to church, but it's unlikely that I'm going to show up to church in a hoodie
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and whatever.
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I mean, I do because I'm me.
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But like most people are unlikely to do that.
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We're walking into church wearing our best, wearing our Sunday best.
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And that is exactly what Paul says not to do.
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So then from there, I looked up what was traditional dress for people in Bible times to wear?
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To church to wear at all.
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And it says traditionally in Bible times, women would wear tunics, something called
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palas, which is essentially a shawl and sandals.
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I don't see anywhere in there that they're hitting up Victoria's Secret and picking up
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a bra, first of all.
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If I showed up to church without a bra, that would be scandalous.
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People would have words.
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People would lose an eye.
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But really, you might be asked to leave.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I don't think Paul knew anything about maxi dresses and Birkenstocks.
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I really don't.
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But I mean, it's just if that's what modesty means in the Bible, if that's what Paul was
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referencing, then we've added a whole lot to the Bible in what we say modesty is and
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what we say Christian modesty is.
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And I think that's the issue is we're putting so many words into God's mouth.
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It just says appropriate clothing.
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Well, who defines what's appropriate?
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Well, obviously the male pastors that have been in charge forever.
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How about it's up to your own discretion what you feel comfortable with and what you don't?
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For some people, yeah, maybe you're, I don't like the dimples on my knees, so I don't want
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to show them.
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Fine.
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But that doesn't mean biblically you can't show your knees.
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You know, we're supposed to be led by the Holy Spirit, right?
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When Jesus went back to heaven, he said, I'm leaving my spirit with you to guide you.
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The Holy Spirit should be the one guiding everything that we do from what we wear to
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the way we speak to the way that we interact.
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All of these things should be guided by that.
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And so if I believe that you have the Holy Spirit within you, then I have to trust that
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you're following him in all of those things too.
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And I shouldn't be able to tell you actually your cleavage is making me uncomfortable.
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You're welcome.
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And that'll be $10 for lookins.
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But then you look up like, okay, where does the word modesty come from?
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Do I looked up that?
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So there's two different translations, I guess.
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So modesty comes from the Latin modus, which literally translates to keeping due measure,
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knowing the correct measure of yourself, of yourself, not of others.
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But in Greek, the translation is from this word called Cosmios.
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I'm very Greek.
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Meaning good behavior, decent and orderly, inner self control.
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Once again, self.
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I can have self control completely nude.
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I can also have self control covered head to toe, like self control.
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Because it's about you, not about what the world is putting on you.
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Right.
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And something that we haven't quite gotten to yet is the reason that Christian women
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are told to be modest is because you don't want to make your brothers in Christ stumble.
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And for those of you who don't speak church speak, because that is like the churchiest
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thing in the world.
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So churchy.
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People will say like, your brothers and sisters in Christ.
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So that essentially just means other people who are following Jesus.
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Other Christians.
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And when they say you don't want, this is only used in the case of modesty too.
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When they say that you don't want to cause someone else to stumble, essentially they're
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saying that as a woman, it is your responsibility to make sure that men don't look at you sexually.
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I mean, that really is what it boils down to.
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Instead of saying from the beginning, when we birth our baby boys, we teach them, hey,
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treat everyone with respect.
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That other person's body does not belong to you.
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How about that?
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Yeah.
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And have that expectation of your sons, of your husbands, of your male friends, of the
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men in your church, whoever they are.
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Expect that they're not going to be awful.
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Right.
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And like grownups, quite treating them like babies.
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Well, and that's what we do in so many of these cases is we treat men like infants.
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They have no control over themselves.
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No self control.
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And you just said modesty means inner self control.
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So we should teach modesty to men too.
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Right.
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Because it's about you.
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Don't make that woman uncomfortable and stare at her.
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It's very simple.
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We teach girls, women, men too, to be ashamed of the bodies that God gave them.
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No matter what you look like.
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I think Bre and I talked in the last episode about how difficult it is to find resources
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for biblical feminism.
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And let me tell you, it keeps getting harder.
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It's impossible.
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It's not because there are not good scholarly resources out there.
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There absolutely are.
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It's because the amount of trash on the internet is just like, it's overwhelming.
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And you read these articles and they're not researched.
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They're garbage.
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They're poorly written.
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But there's enough of them that they bog down the system.
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So you can't get to the really good stuff.
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So I found an article.
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Here we go.
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Trash talking articles again.
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This is the second episode.
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Do you want to say it's by Schmikeschmarrn?
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Thank you.
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On modesty.
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And I kind of based a lot of my research on this particular article because it kind of
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encompassed a lot of what was being said in all the articles.
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They kind of all say the same things.
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They all twist the same verses.
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So I kind of based it off of that.
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So one of the things, and this is written by a woman, because let me tell you, women
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are perpetuating all of this as much as men are.
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Maybe even more sometimes, which is so sad.
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You know what, maybe they just, I need to give them a hug or something.
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Yeah, I'm not a hugger, but I'll do it.
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You don't even like to hug me.
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No, I don't.
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So one of the things that she said is that when we choose our clothes, and I'm going
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to try and not exactly quote her because that feels insulting.
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You know what?
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You do you.
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But she said when we choose our clothes each day, we have an opportunity for discipleship.
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Who knew my closet had such power?
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And she says that the question isn't necessarily how short or how low your clothing is, even
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though you might have to answer those things along the way.
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It's about identity.
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It's about who you are.
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My closet has so much power, Brianna.
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It's so impressive.
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It's very Narnia.
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And so I, you know, my response to that was essentially that the issue isn't in what she's
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saying.
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It's about that she makes it biblical.
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Right.
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You know, if you want to dress with a higher cut top and longer shorts, do you?
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Totally up to you.
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Yeah, whatever your comfort level is, dress to your comfort level.
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For whatever reason.
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You don't have to have a reason.
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No.
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But when you start to make your opinions biblical, you start to assign God to your thoughts,
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that's when it becomes a problem.
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Just because you have decided that short shorts are not discipling the rest of the world does
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not mean that the Bible also says that.
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She at one point also says, what we wear tells a story about who we are.
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It's very deep, very deep.
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And I said, you know, but what, but what is that story?
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And why is that story defined by what we wear?
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The Bible doesn't ever say that.
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I feel like the only story that would be said with me are like, did you decide to wear short
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shorts today?
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Your thighs chafed.
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It's some shame on you.
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My story would be, could you stop wearing athleisure for one day?
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No.
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Do you own real pants?
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Why do you have 17 pairs of black leggings?
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17?
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My whole drawer is full of black leggings.
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17 would be getting rid of most of them.
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Back in the day, do you remember?
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Leggings weren't pants.
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Leggings were not pants.
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That was a big thing back in like the mid 2000s.
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But I think we can look at the Bible and really recognize that this is not true.
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If we pull this statement apart, what we wear tells a story about who we are.
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Okay.
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So let's look into the Old Testament.
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There is a point where in the Old Testament, the Israelites are told that they can't have
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a bowl cut, which is like the goofiest thing in the world.
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Sorry, every child from the 70s.
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Right.
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Like it's literally now, again, we're not supposed to follow the old law, but for them
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at the time, it was biblical to not have a bowl cut.
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It was also biblical not to have tattoos at that time under the old law.
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I am not.
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I've got tattoos guys.
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Like I'm not.
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I don't.
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You're welcome, grandma.
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That could be the title.
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I think we've decided that's our tagline.
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I think our tagline should be sorry, grandma.
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And because to us, none of that makes any sense, right?
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It's just why no bowl cuts?
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Why no tattoos?
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It doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
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Now the reasoning behind it when you dig into it is because those things were done to worship
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other gods.
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There were other cultures that part of how you knew that they were part of this religion
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is that they had a bowl cut.
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That is absolutely insane to me.
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They had to do something easy.
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I can tell that you're worshiping, I don't know, Zeus because you have a bowl cut.
26:58
They didn't have a lot of resources, okay?
27:02
And so that was kind of the definition of here's how your body should look.
27:09
There's not a lot of times in scripture where that happens, but this was one of those times
27:14
and it was very specifically due to the fact that this meant worshiping another god.
27:22
So okay, if at some point some religion says the way we define ourselves is because we
27:29
are wearing short shorts, then okay, maybe don't wear those short shorts.
27:35
But that's the only reason.
27:39
Not just because it's going to tempt someone else or because of whatever.
27:44
So one of the other things that she talks about is that when Adam and Eve realized that
27:52
they were naked when they sinned, you know, God made them clothes.
27:57
And she goes into this whole thing about how and God lovingly made these beautiful clothes
28:04
for them.
28:06
And I'd like to think that they were not at all like, you know, the caveman-esque type
28:11
clothes, that they were beautiful clothes and tailored wonderfully and blah blah blah.
28:16
She goes on and on, right?
28:19
What?
28:20
Like, where is this coming from?
28:23
Give me a verse.
28:24
I know.
28:25
Maybe that could be our tagline.
28:26
Give me a verse.
28:27
Give me a verse that says, God came down from the heavens with a brother sewing machine and
28:34
fashioned finest garments in all of Eden.
28:42
And I think that's crazy because like, from where we're standing on the Christian feminist
28:48
viewpoint, or just the general feminist viewpoint, we get crap all the time about putting words
28:57
in God's mouth, adding to the Bible, right?
29:00
Tell me that's not adding to the Bible.
29:04
And she uses that as a point to say, because God lovingly took the time to fashion their
29:10
clothes, that means he cares about their clothes and what they wear.
29:14
And therefore, we should care about the clothes and what we wear and we should hide our bodies.
29:18
We've gone on a journey.
29:21
Even though, remember, God made our bodies.
29:25
And he made our bodies naked.
29:27
Like I'm not saying go out and strip, but God made us as we are.
29:36
He made our bodies without clothes.
29:37
We are not born clothed.
29:41
So that needs to play a factor in how we treat our bodies.
29:46
Some of the verses that she goes into, one of them is 1 Corinthians 6, 19 through 20.
29:53
And this is from the NLT.
29:54
It says, Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives
29:58
in you and was given to you by God?
30:00
You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price.
30:04
So you must honor God with your body.
30:06
The Bible does give a lot of examples of, you know, you don't belong to yourself, essentially.
30:12
Like you were bought with a price, you belong to God, etc.
30:15
etc. we see this again and again.
30:18
However, in this case, this verse is being taken completely out of context.
30:24
And I want to point out that in most modesty discussions, verses are being taken out of
30:30
context.
30:31
Like you don't read the whole thing.
30:33
Literally just read the whole chapter for goodness sakes.
30:36
They're not that long.
30:38
So verse 18, the one right before this talks about running from sexual sin and immorality.
30:46
So the verse before it informs it, right?
30:48
It tells you what it's talking about.
30:51
So when it says your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives in you, you don't
30:55
belong to yourself, etc, etc.
30:57
It's not talking about your clothes.
30:59
Nope, it's talking about sexual immorality.
31:02
That is what it's talking about.
31:05
It's telling us what it's talking about.
31:08
And you don't just get to assign it meaning because you want to write a cutesy little
31:12
blog.
31:13
You're so violent.
31:14
That's not how it works.
31:17
It just frustrates me because because I have been told many times that I'm I'm making things
31:23
up when I say women have value in God's kingdom.
31:27
That when I say that women are not secondary to their husbands, or that women should preach
31:33
or any of these things, I get told, well, you're just cherry picking verses.
31:40
You're taking things out of context.
31:42
You're whatever.
31:43
But all of these people are taking things out of context.
31:47
And this is not the only example.
31:49
So then the next section that I wanted to talk about is in First Corinthians.
31:54
Now, again, there's a section in here that's kind of cherry picked.
31:58
And this is a this is a big section like this just doesn't have to do with modesty.
32:02
This is like one of those ones that like it encompasses a lot.
32:05
And I don't know that we necessarily have the time to go into all of it.
32:09
We in fact do feel free.
32:13
But we'll we'll kind of dive into it a little bit.
32:16
So this is First Corinthians 11.
32:19
And I'm going to start in verse 17.
32:21
Generally this is started verse 11.
32:23
But I think verse seven is where reading more of the Bible just never does never hurt.
32:30
It does never hurt.
32:34
So this whole passage is really interesting.
32:36
So just go with me as as we read it.
32:37
And this is NLT again.
32:38
It says a man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping for man is made in
32:42
God's image and reflects God's glory and women reflects man's glory.
32:47
For the first man did not come from woman, but the first woman came from man.
32:51
And man was not made for woman but woman was made for man.
32:55
For this reason, and because the angels are watching a woman should wear a covering on
32:58
her head to show she is under authority.
33:02
But I love it.
33:04
booty booty butt.
33:06
Among the Lord's people, women are not independent of men and men are not independent of women.
33:12
For although the first woman came from man, every other man was born from a woman and
33:16
everything comes from God.
33:18
Judge for yourselves, is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering
33:22
her head?
33:23
Isn't it obvious that it's disgraceful for a man to have long hair?
33:26
And isn't long hair a woman's pride and joy?
33:28
For it has been given to her as a covering.
33:31
But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other customs in
33:34
this and neither do God's other churches.
33:37
So that's a long section and there's so much to dig into there like this.
33:41
But it's so good.
33:42
It's so good.
33:44
I've I've really learned to love Paul over as we've been researching this and I gotta
33:50
tell you I did not like Paul prior to this.
33:52
I know.
33:53
Because Paul does say a lot about women.
33:55
But again, this is if you're reading it correctly, he's empowering women.
34:01
Exactly.
34:02
It's not what we've been told.
34:03
Setting Christianity apart from the rest of the world in that way.
34:08
So I think the first thing to dive into because this is the topic of this podcast is the modesty
34:13
aspect here.
34:16
So the author of the particular article that I was reading used this as an argument to
34:21
say that women should be different from men.
34:24
So essentially that the rules for women are different than the rules for men.
34:27
So we have to be modest.
34:29
But apparently men can men can do whatever they want.
34:32
So again, we're ignoring the context.
34:35
If we try and say that that means that women are different from men, that that's the purpose
34:40
of these verses that Paul is writing.
34:43
First of all, again, we're ignoring context because the verse before this talks about
34:46
how men and women are equal in God's kingdom.
34:49
Can I just hit that point a little harder?
34:53
You missed it.
34:55
I smacked a desk.
34:57
And beyond that, like what is the argument here?
35:01
Is it that like women need to be modest, but if a man wears a bikini, that's totally fine?
35:08
Like, are we okay with speedos?
35:13
Because I'm not.
35:14
I'm not.
35:15
I mean, but I guess do you do you but I'm just seeing one too many things.
35:22
I'm not gonna look.
35:24
A message for men.
35:25
A message for men.
35:27
I think it's just it's a silly argument.
35:29
Like it's a pointless argument to say that this set of verses, we're gonna boil it down,
35:36
make it so simplistic, that all it says is women's rules are different than men's rules
35:42
and women need to be modest and men can do whatever the crap they want.
35:46
He says we have no customs other than like men shouldn't have long hair but women should
35:52
because that's covering for them.
35:56
Okay, well what about alopecia?
36:00
What about like cancer when it takes your hair?
36:06
Should we be ashamed of that?
36:07
Should we cover that up?
36:08
No, we're not doing that.
36:10
Well, and he says, if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other
36:16
custom than this and neither do God's other churches.
36:18
So I think we have to recognize that some of what Paul is saying is very, very cultural.
36:23
He's not saying he specifically does not say and remember Paul chooses his words very carefully.
36:29
He specifically does not say and this is God's command and this is what God wants of you
36:36
and he does that other places.
36:37
There are other places where that happens but he doesn't say that here.
36:40
He says, I simply say that we have no other custom than this.
36:44
This is what we do here.
36:46
No, that's a great jumping off point into like other time periods and culturally what
36:52
was considered appropriate because you think back in medieval times, we were all boobs
37:01
out.
37:03
Boobs were out.
37:05
Men were wearing, I don't know, heels.
37:08
Men were wearing dresses at one point.
37:11
And heels and makeup.
37:13
And do you think back into like the 50s, 60s when women started to be able to wear pants,
37:21
kind of?
37:22
And that was very controversial but now we've really said that's okay women, you can wear
37:28
jeans, you can wear leggings, you can wear skirts, you can wear dresses.
37:32
It's all about culture.
37:35
It's all about kind of just what's okay at the time.
37:38
Well, and there was a time, there was, I think, you know, we like to take our modern era and
37:45
push it back and pretend this is what it's always been.
37:48
But there was a large stretch of time really up until fairly modern history where Christian
37:55
women or like women of Protestant type faith were not dressing any differently than anybody
38:02
else.
38:04
And I was having this conversation with my mom because I was reading this blog and I
38:07
was getting a little raging.
38:08
We have the same mom.
38:09
You too.
38:10
Hi mom.
38:11
I was having this conversation with her and she was like, well, Christian women weren't
38:17
dressing differently because everyone was dressing modestly back then.
38:20
So no big deal.
38:23
And this was just kind of a devil's advocate situation.
38:27
My mom very much agrees.
38:28
You don't talk about the devil.
38:29
I'm sorry.
38:30
My mom very much agrees with what we have to say on a lot of things.
38:35
But she was kind of saying, well, you know, everybody dressed modestly back then.
38:38
So modesty just wouldn't have been an issue.
38:41
But that's us, you know, painting a rosy picture of the past.
38:45
When the reality is, like you said, there was a time period where like corsets were
38:49
shoving boobs all the way up.
38:51
They were very visible.
38:52
They were, women were wearing, I honestly don't know what you call them, but like bumps
38:58
on their butt to make their butt look.
39:00
I knew the word for it.
39:01
Booty bumps?
39:02
Bustle?
39:03
No, it's not a bustle.
39:04
Whatever it was, you know, like to emphasize their butts.
39:10
To create a unique shape.
39:12
Like the corsets were very, very tight to make their waists look tiny.
39:16
And modesty wasn't like a debate at that time.
39:22
It wasn't like, oh, you can't wear this because God wants something different of you.
39:25
They just didn't want to show their ankles.
39:27
But their boobs were fine.
39:30
But modesty was different then.
39:33
And then you get into like the 20s when they would bind their boobs.
39:37
They wanted to look like men.
39:39
So it's just cultural.
39:41
But something that I can't also just drive by because it's very important.
39:47
You can barely drive.
39:49
I can barely park.
39:50
I can drive just fine.
39:52
Thank you.
39:56
So is the verses prior to kind of the head coverings section that were conveniently cut
40:02
out of the blog?
40:04
Hahaha.
40:05
Basically, Paul is doing what Paul does very, very well all throughout the New Testament.
40:13
Paul presents first what people have always thought.
40:19
So what's going on in their culture at the time?
40:23
Patriarchy.
40:26
Men came first and all women came from men and the man is the head of the household and
40:33
etc., etc., etc.
40:35
But then he immediately turns it on its head.
40:39
He doesn't just leave it there.
40:41
He flips it around and he says, but we're not like that.
40:45
We as God's people are different.
40:48
And don't you remember every man since then has come from a woman?
40:52
Paul literally says that.
40:54
Like it is biblical.
40:56
Don't forget guys, you might have been first, but you wouldn't be here without the rest
41:00
of the women.
41:01
Yeah.
41:02
Good luck pushing a watermelon out your nostril.
41:04
Gonna have to cut that too.
41:08
And I just don't understand why we can't read the whole chapter without taking out little
41:15
pieces and making them say what we want.
41:17
Like I read through the entire chapter and Paul's message is very clear.
41:26
We are different.
41:28
We are living in a society that says one thing, but we are different from the rest of them.
41:35
We should be different.
41:36
And here's how we should be different.
41:38
Maxi skirts and Birkenstocks.
41:42
He's saying that it doesn't matter in God's kingdom who came first.
41:45
Men aren't independent of men, but men also aren't independent of women.
41:48
We all need one another.
41:52
We are the body of Christ and some of you might be the butt.
41:56
Full circle.
41:58
But we need the butt.
42:00
So what we're saying.
42:04
One of the points that gets made a lot is that you are not alone in your faith.
42:11
You belong to a community of believers and it is your job as part of that community to
42:19
help the rest of your brothers and sisters in Christ not sin.
42:27
No one is alone.
42:29
You've been holding that one in huh?
42:33
And this is where we really get into shaming women into modesty.
42:39
This is harder, the harder part for me to talk about because of experiences that I've
42:46
had.
42:47
So the overall message is that you have a responsibility toward your brothers in Christ
42:54
to not do something that would make them sin.
43:00
That would cause them to sin.
43:03
And your body by virtue of just you know having boobs and stuff is going to cause them to
43:08
sin apparently because they just have no self control right?
43:12
How about we teach some respect?
43:15
How about that?
43:17
But that's the message.
43:18
That's the message that not only was I taught when I was younger and in very conservative
43:23
churches but the message that was shared with me as an adult in non-denominational churches
43:29
that I thought had my back.
43:35
Like you said before, it's like being told constantly like everyone is going to look
43:42
at you and just lust after you and it's your responsibility to not let that happen.
43:49
To hide yourself.
43:50
And if for some reason they are lusting after you or whatever, it's because of something
43:58
that you did.
44:00
Right.
44:01
And then should something happen where you are abused in the church, it's because of
44:07
the way you dressed.
44:08
And you know this is a message that's out in society too.
44:11
So it's not just the Christian community but it's heavy in the Christian community.
44:17
It's because you always wear leggings.
44:20
It's because your shirts are too tight.
44:22
It's because you wear heels.
44:24
It's whatever.
44:26
Clearly it's your fault.
44:28
For anyone that's been told that, I'm very sorry.
44:33
I'm so sorry.
44:34
I can't begin to describe how wrong that is.
44:39
How unbiblical that is.
44:41
They say women are leaving churches in droves and with that being a major message given
44:48
to women, I don't blame them.
44:50
I hate talking about this because it's shameful that that's where the church has landed.
44:56
It's shameful.
44:57
And I feel like a lot of churches won't outwardly say that, but it's in their actions.
45:05
Like if a woman comes to them and says, a man was looking at me inappropriately or he
45:11
said something inappropriate.
45:13
Touched me inappropriately.
45:15
Any of those things.
45:16
They're like, you should talk to him.
45:20
Or thank you for letting us know, but nothing happens.
45:25
Nothing moves forward with it.
45:27
So it's all in their actions.
45:28
And I would absolutely leave a church that I felt was not protecting me or other women.
45:35
One of the verses that she references that a lot of people will reference when they're
45:40
talking about this, because again, modesty is never mentioned in the Bible in this context.
45:46
So one of the verses is first Corinthians one two, where it says that we are called
45:52
to be saints together.
45:54
And essentially the modesty argument boils that down to us being on board with preventing
46:02
one another from sin.
46:04
And like, look, I'm not saying, you know what you should do?
46:09
Go really piss some people off so they sin.
46:12
Like I'm not saying you should actively antagonize everyone and whatever.
46:17
But when it comes to this, nothing that I am doing by what I wear actively causes someone
46:24
else's sin.
46:26
They choose to react how they're going to react.
46:31
Because God gave us free will, baby.
46:34
You have a brain in your head, use it.
46:37
And this argument of stopping other people from sin is only ever used in the modesty
46:43
conversation.
46:47
Never else, never ever do we hear this used again.
46:52
Like I have yet to hear someone say to a man, you know, you could really help prevent your
46:57
wife from sinning by helping out around the house more because she gets really angry.
47:05
Or the way that you're yelling at that football game is making your wife full of rage.
47:10
Rage is a sin.
47:12
Or the way that you're yelling at that football game is causing your children to be angry
47:17
and to create unhealthy behaviors.
47:24
The way that you put that football game above God on Sundays, when you canceled church because
47:31
of a football game, does not teach good things.
47:38
I think we've said that this in every podcast so far.
47:41
If you're not going to take your own rule all the way, all the way, that's Celine Dion,
47:51
then it doesn't work anymore.
47:53
You don't, it doesn't hold any weight anymore.
47:57
We have all these rules, but they only actually apply to you.
48:01
Not us.
48:04
Like until you start to tell me that you're going to do everything in your possible power
48:11
to stop me from doing any sin, that's going to become your entire life's mission is stopping
48:17
me from sinning, which by the way is insane.
48:21
But until that happens, your modesty argument doesn't make sense.
48:26
I shouldn't have to police myself because you can't control yourself.
48:32
And I think it goes back to that other, I don't know where exactly it is in the Bible,
48:37
but where it says instead of looking at the splinter in my eye, look at the log in yours.
48:44
I know those aren't the words, but how about we just worry about ourselves.
48:50
Quit trying to critique and guide and parent everybody else.
48:55
Belief.
48:56
Yeah.
48:57
Focus on yourself.
48:59
You feel like you shouldn't show your knees, don't show your knees.
49:02
But I'ma show my knees.
49:04
Or I might not, depending on my mood.
49:07
I think this is a message to men and women.
49:10
We're teaching men in Christianity, but also in broader society, that they have no responsibility
49:16
for their actions.
49:18
That it's all about the woman and how she dresses and how she behaves.
49:23
And they have no control over themselves.
49:26
In conservative Christian circles, they say men should be the priest, the provider, the
49:32
protector, the other P word.
49:35
I don't know what the P word is.
49:38
But at the same time, don't wear a bra strap because they might sin because of you.
49:43
It just doesn't make sense in my head that they should be all of these things, but also
49:49
kind of baby them a little bit because they can't control themselves.
49:52
They're so weak.
49:53
If they should be the protector, provider, the priest, they should absolutely be able
49:57
to control themselves.
50:00
Control not just their actions, but also their thoughts and their eyeballs.
50:03
Yeah.
50:04
And this is just kind of anecdotal now, but as women, especially in the church, we are
50:10
taught that we're always wrong in this regard and to always question ourselves in this regard.
50:18
If a man is looking at us inappropriately.
50:22
And let me tell you men, if you're looking at our boobs, we know.
50:25
We know.
50:26
You're not subtle.
50:27
Oh my gosh, we know.
50:30
Like, I just, it's so gross.
50:33
I don't even know.
50:35
It makes you feel like not a person.
50:38
Yeah.
50:39
Like I want to run away.
50:40
Yeah.
50:41
It's not sexy.
50:42
It's not cute.
50:43
No.
50:44
Stop doing it.
50:45
Stop doing it.
50:46
But we're taught to second guess what we know to be true.
50:50
When you're standing talking to a man and his eyes can't manage to meet your eyes because
50:54
they're constantly staring at your boobs, you're taught to think, no, he probably is,
51:00
he's probably just shy and he probably just struggles to make eye contact and you know,
51:05
they're right there.
51:06
So why not?
51:08
Or when he touches you inappropriately, you're told to think or told to tell yourself, I
51:15
guess, that it was just an accident.
51:18
He didn't really mean it.
51:20
He would never do that.
51:22
Maybe it's just a flaw about himself that he's not aware of.
51:26
Direct quote.
51:28
We're taught to think these things into second guess ourselves.
51:34
And it puts us in a dangerous position.
51:38
Because if you can't pull yourself out of that thought process, and you can't say, no,
51:43
this is inappropriate, I need to walk away from this person.
51:47
And unfortunately, we don't usually get the church support.
51:54
Because women, I think, were taught always to never make a situation uncomfortable.
52:01
You always just want to smooth things over.
52:03
You don't want to make waves.
52:06
So if a guy won't look you in the eyes, you might politely be like, try to change the
52:13
subject or instead of just being like, get down to where his eyes are, look up at him
52:19
and be like, I'm done talking to you now because my eyes are up here.
52:25
And walk away.
52:26
Like, you never want to make them uncomfortable.
52:29
Or like, you're at a bar and some guy is harassing you for your number.
52:33
Like, just give him a number, but just give him the wrong number.
52:37
Or no, say no.
52:39
This is a whole...
52:40
I'm jumping off into a whole other topic.
52:43
I mean, we can...
52:46
It's okay to be rude.
52:47
It's okay to stand up for yourself and protect yourself.
52:51
And can I say to you, it's okay for all women to be rude, but in particular, not because
52:57
it's more important for this, but because we're not told this, it's okay for Christian
53:02
women to be rude to men in these situations.
53:07
To call them out, to smack their hands, whatever it takes.
53:13
Can I say this from place of not knowing that I could?
53:18
And I wish someone would have said that to me instead of what was said to me.
53:23
I'm sorry that happened to you.
53:25
And if I was there, someone would be castrated.
53:30
Women out there, you are not alone.
53:33
You have, like, and we've said a million times, you have value beyond just your body and also
53:41
your body, if that makes sense.
53:44
And know that it is, it's not society given, it's God given.
53:50
So often we hear treat your body like a temple.
53:54
And it's in regards to like exercise and eating healthy and maybe not getting that piercing
53:59
that you were thinking about and don't get tattoos.
54:01
But how about we just look in the mirror and say, I love you.
54:07
Is that weird?
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No, but I love you and I respect you.
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And I hold value.
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Matthew 22, 37 through 40.
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You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul and all your mind.
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This is the first and greatest commandment.
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The second is equally important.
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Love your neighbor as yourself.
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The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.
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If you look in the Bible, who Jesus was talking to when he said these words were the Pharisees.
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The harshest words Jesus ever speaks in the Bible are towards the people who are trying
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to hold up the religious law.
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Something else that I was actually just reading about that verse, I think it's cool that you
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brought that up.
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Someone posted, one of the people that I follow on Facebook posted recently, and they said,
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you know, the Bible says to love your neighbor as yourself.
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And the example of that is that you have to love yourself well.
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You can't love your neighbor as yourself.
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If you hate yourself, if you hate your body, God made you.
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He made you as you are.
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God made you special.
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He loves you very much.
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That's how we should end it.
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