Latest / Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR / Ray’s Hot Takes | Vol 4

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Ray’s Hot Takes | Vol 4 · Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: The podcast will be elevate the stories of the plane of spar and dive into the key trends, shaping the civil justice system today.
• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Ray D. Lorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now let's jump in.
• 0:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone, welcome to a new episode of Raising the Bar with her buttle PR.
• 0:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Radee Lorenzi.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Today we're turning the tables for another hot takes episode.
• 0:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: My friend and colleague Hannah Gallagher's here.
• 0:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: She has some questions that she has not run by me that she's going to pepper me with.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things we often hear from listeners, clients, and who knows where else from wherever Hannah you know, captured them.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, anyway, I'm glad to have you here again, Hannah.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much.
• 0:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, yeah, thanks for having me back.
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Glad this has gone well in the past, so I have returned, but we have to... Hannah's in a new apartment for those watching the video, and you need some artwork, like, desperately.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like a CIA black site.
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, no, don't do it.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Jail-Sellish right now, but it's a work in progress.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, let's do this Hannah, pit me, what do you got?
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, so in the past we've talked a lot about major moments in a case that you find media interesting or, um, have important public relations moments throughout a case.
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you can reiterate a few of those major moments to us because then I want to talk about trial comes and what what do we do when we get to trial when that happens.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so maybe reiterate a bit of the major moments you find important in a case, um, got it.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know about.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, look, not every case is the same, and it's not one size fits all, but what's important if you think about the word news, what is new, what, you know, it has to have some novelty to it, and look, the beginning and the ends of a case are always, but not always, but typically news for the, the filing of a complaint, and the resolution, whether that is a verdict or settlement.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that does not mean that those are necessarily the most important components from a news perspective.
• 2:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are plenty of inflection points in throughout a litigation that are of interest to news media.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it depends on what it is and what type of news outlet.
• 2:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean it's going to be in the New York Times.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It could be in a legal trade.
• 2:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean it's any less important depending on what type of audience you're trying to reach.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for example, you have a summary judgment motion that has a bunch of documents that were, you know, that were obtained through discovery that are becoming public for the first time and that can be really newsworthy.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Interestingly, you could have a defendant filing a motion to dismiss.
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that could be newsworthy and something you want to get out there because perhaps that they make are really still to it or uncomfortable statement that they think is just going to be in a court filing and no one's going to see it.
• 3:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that could have a lot of news value as well.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You also have lawyers playing lawyer tricks that could lead to sanctions or the judge slapping them on the wrist that could have newsworthy elements.
• 3:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those are just a few examples.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: If, you know, a place like the Northern District of California, you know, those types of cases, you know, status conferences draw media attention.
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, a district that may be in a more rural area, that may be more difficult.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, these are things that we think about when we're managing media on all litigation because, you know, the corporate defendants are thinking about how they are going to minimize not just their legal exposure, but their exposure to public scrutiny on these things.
• 3:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: That makes a lot of sense.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So recently I know I was a part of a team prepping for a trial and a big trial.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: We had a lot of plans and then it ended up settling, which I know about 95 to 98.
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the actual percent is two to five.
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: percent of civil cases actually go to trial.
• 4:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So not a lot, but you know, we always prepare, we have a trial strategy ready.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to talk a little bit about why that part is different.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's only two to five percent of the cases, but it's still good to get ready for that.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you talk a little bit about what's the difference of your pretrial strategy versus once you actually get to trial and what people should be thinking about
• 4:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the types of cases that we work on, which are big cases typically, right?
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: They often, I think, and not every case, but oftentimes they bring in a ringer or another trial lawyer, that's going to focus on trying that case, and they're just like dust that they are preparing to go to the distance and sometimes at the 11th hour, they get that call, I mean, like, hey, we settle that, you're not
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're not trying this case any longer, but I'm sure that there is some disappointment, but also it's what's in the best interest of the client, because trials or risky, you're not always going to win them, and things can happen.
• 5:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: When we're working on a trial, again, it's just not one size fits all.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have some trials that openings are going to be a big moment in closings, and everything in between may not be that newsworthy.
• 5:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just really depends.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you have a case where there's going to be, you know, a key witness that has to testify in person, which is becoming rare and rare oftentimes to video tape testimony.
• 5:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But those big moments, yeah, you're going to have news coverage there.
• 5:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it also mentioned before, depends on the venue.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a major metropolitan area.
• 5:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's easier to get news outlets to show up in person.
• 5:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Federal court trials, typically, there's some sort of pilot projects, but they're not going to be broadcast or streamed in any way.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay court cases.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's like courtroom view network, I think it's called CVN.
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: They stream a lot of state court stuff, so then reporters can just be at home watching this stuff and writing on it So that's an interesting added element.
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So
• 6:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we prepare for trials all the time, but the way, you know, a lot of these cases now unfold, you know, pre-trial and during litigation, often there's not too many surprises during the trial, and it's really about the witnesses who's going to have to testify and sort of there's a theater to it, a theatrical to it, and but, you know, you also said it up front, I think five persons probably to high at estimate.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're looking at one percent less, you know, go to trial and
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: that doesn't count a lot of smaller stuff that goes to trial that isn't newsworthy at all.
• 6:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So to see a big case-good trial, these days is rare, but rarity also equals news value.
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the worst thing you could do is it's like, you know, going to trial blind, and being like, you know, let the chips forward, they're mad.
• 6:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: The last thing I'll say, which I probably should have said first, when it comes to trial media strategies, the first rule is do no harm.
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: The goal is to not get media coverage of the case.
• 7:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: The goal is to win the case.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You want to prevent the corporate defendant from doing things that are going to try to tilt the scales in their favor.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So whatever you can do to minimize their advantage, I think it's really important.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, you mentioned some federal courts, you know, federal courts historically have not allowed any cameras in the courtroom.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Northern District of California has a pilot program to consider cameras in the courtroom.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a feeling about cameras in the courtroom?
• 7:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know the judge said she believes strongly, the judge I'm following, she believes strongly in public access to the court.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: depending on the plaintiff, the comfort level of being on camera while you're testifying or your case is being laid out.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel about videos coming out at trial?
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Usefulness of that.
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, I'm a big first amendment public access sort of person, the fact that piece or you have to pay for legal filings I find to be served.
• 8:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: This stuff goes back decades.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the Supreme Court still not videotaped.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't quite understand the arguments.
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are restrictions that the court could put in place, so it is not like a complete spectacle.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you want like TikTokers doing live streams while a trial is in progress.
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think people should have access to like, you know, this key information that's happening.
• 8:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the technology is there.
• 8:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, there are concerns about let's say it's involving an abuse case in a minor.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, CVN, you know, courtroom view network, they work with courts all the time to prevent showing, you know, the faces of people who need to be protected.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think these are all things that can be worked around the what the big issue I have is there just needs to be some certainty And like you know, they've been doing this pilot project in the industry California I've seen it and they have like a zoom link and the zoom link gets capped out like at a hundred people and then these big cases like you have to be on like 20 minutes before and I Then you're blocked like it's like it's like it's 2026 like come on.
• 9:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Again, this is outside of my area.
• 9:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess of extra
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I should stay in my lane, I don't work for the court system and I know there's compelling arguments both ways, but I think public access is always better and just refreshing.
• 9:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who wants to make the less transparency argument?
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Does anyone want to do that?
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't want to do that.
• 9:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I get it.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I understand, I mean, we talked about before attorneys generally and I think the
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: general posture is to not engage with media and then take it a step further having cameras fill me while you're in court could be intimidating but also for the plaintiff side maybe helpful I think people understanding what's going on just generally are.
• 10:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Stance is we want people to know what's going on in the world and therefore Having more information out there is a good thing, but I can see all I can see both sides and judges Too can be very sensitive.
• 10:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: That was gonna be my next question I think the audience a lot of the time that the attorneys are worried about when trial starts or even before trial starts is The judge and the judge being offended that they're talking about the case in the media How how do you tow the line of you know
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: getting the information out there that is needed, but also respecting the judge and respecting the procedure that they put forward.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, again, I mentioned before, the first rule is due to harm, and we never advise our clients like it.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: on the eve of or during trial to be, you know, chirping with the press, I think it's an extremely bad idea, you know, the judge is going to call it straight.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But like what you're doing yourself at the service and doing your client at the service by by doing something that's going to potentially anger the judge.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So now.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: that does not mean you can't be engaging with the media.
• 11:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You just don't need to be doing interviews on the record.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: If there is a public filing emailing that to a reporter, you know, a transcript, like key documents that were shown.
• 11:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Giving a reporter a heads up about what the schedule may be over the coming weeks in a non-interview format is Completely appropriate and again, you can bet your bottom dollar that Corporate defendants are doing the same thing with reporters backgrounding them ahead of Trial Again, not doing it on the record because they are wise enough to know that it's only going to anger the judge
• 11:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, there are a lot of sort of degrees on the spectrum of what you can do to be engaging with media.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then don't don't a lot of doing an on-the-record interview, which I typically believe is a very bad idea.
• 12:08
  [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that makes sense.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so that's through kind of trial.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess once we get towards the end of a trial, say a verdict is coming, what kind of preparation
• 12:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: towards the end of trial when a verdict is coming and they know it's gonna be a big day in the good or the bad.
• 12:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: What kind of things should a attorney's be looking to plan or to win?
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: We often work with lawyers and we prepare a statement like, hey, this is a statement if you win and here's a statement if you lose and 100% of the time they don't even look at them because it's just like superstition.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, every case is going to be different.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: What I think is really important to appreciate, yes, okay, let's say you get a big verdict and it's a great outcome for your client.
• 12:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is not over.
• 12:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be an appeal.
• 13:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if you really cautious of what you do in the aftermath to making sure you're not giving more ammunition to the defendant in an eventual appeal.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again,
• 13:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: depends on what the case is, depends on where it is in the litigation, is it like a MDL that and it's like the first bell weather, it's a big MDL, it's a tenth bell weather, is it like a one-off single event case, a lot of different things are in the mix there that I think going to the soup and going to the calculus of how you want to approach it.
• 13:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, if you win, you don't need to hold the parade, like you won the case, and I do think you want to project confidence, particularly if there's other cases that are coming behind it.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, I think people who spike the football do so at their own peril.
• 13:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And look, if you lose, I kind of think the media is the least of your worries.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, if it's a bell weather situation, I think you need to...
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: you can do things to sort of differentiate that case from other cases that may be occurring, but lawyers who work with want to win, and so it's, they don't even want to think about the loss scenario.
• 14:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, trials are unpredictable, so you need to plan for that unpredictability in some ways.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So assuming, I mean, I'm kind of taking us through the whole trial process, and I kind of, I think part of our job is to think of
• 14:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: worst case scenarios and what happens when there's a really bad headline or something bad happens in trial and we need to kind of jump on it fast response.
• 14:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: At the end one narrative we see a lot is it's a nuclear verdict.
• 14:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: the most of them created tagline I've ever heard, but can you just speak to how do you speak about your result in a way that is helpful to the future of the plaintiff bar and also to your client so that they're not just getting that nuclear verdict sentiment thrown at them.
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: They win a case.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think sort of what's been occurring is you're seeing defendants get more aggressive and running to legislators to get verdicts overturned or to in the event of a adverse outcome to cut off the litigation from a legislative standpoint.
• 15:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And legislators are people too, and if they're hearing from their constituent, which is a business saying, we're going to shut down this factory, we're going to light off jobs and let's put aside their usually full of crap, but you know, but legislators are going to listen to that.
• 15:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's very important for lawyers just not to be putting themselves front and center, and also discuss the person whose case they just litigated.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, mother who is now taking care of a child who's going to need a lifetime of care, you know, or, you know, a loved one who was killed because of unsafe practices.
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we know in these cases, it's never just like a one-off.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like usually an unsafe practice that's being going on for a very long time.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Telling the stories of your clients is what we do best and
• 16:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's important to us because the future of the civil justice system is important to us, and I, you know, again, the lawyers we work with, know the stakes.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: They know that succeeding for their client, they're spillover effects that they, that need to be managed.
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's really important as part, especially big litigation, these days, they're really a three-legged stool.
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have what the legal side, what's happening in the courtroom, two is the media side, and three is the legislative regulatory side.
• 16:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: more so than ever.
• 16:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, you're just seeing defendants more and more running to state legislators, running to Congress, running to regulatory agencies.
• 16:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think the best way to be a found to fight back on that is one transparency.
• 17:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Show what these corporations are doing, you know, peeling back, lobbying registrations, peeling back minutes of meetings
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, showcasing the people behind the cases, who lawyers are actually fighting for.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: The legislative angle can be a big threat that people don't look at right away.
• 17:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that needs to be quickly thought about in all different angles because there are legislators who
• 17:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: are going to oppose the plaintiff-born no matter what, and they're just going to be there, so you have to be able to tell the stories of the people and really use the public sentiment to your favor.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: One, I think, subject maybe we can talk through a bit of an example.
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Last time we talked about AI use in
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh god, I'm worried I'm doing it's going to be a fun version.
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what we talked about AIUs in PR now, like I think there's a new, new lots of new AI cases, legal cases popping up.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a new trend, maybe trend is a bad word, but I think with the social media victory recently and these AI tools just like exploding everywhere,
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's the, like, an open AI case now that in Thropic, had a copyright settlement, Grok is seeing a lot of sea-samulated suits.
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that this is a new, this is going to be a big type of civil litigation going forward?
• 18:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And do you think that these companies are reactive to this sort of case?
• 18:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if so, you know, how do you get to them?
• 18:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you, maybe it's through media, but what do you think this strategy is from our media perspective to tell stories that our AI harm related?
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have no idea if this is going to be like a large mass tour.
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I don't know.
• 18:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's a little bit too outside of my lane.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I think the plane is probably to be thinking about.
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: These companies are going to want immunity.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: like they want it now and they are not going to stop and this is going to be a very, very big problem.
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what they are going to say is this is about American competitiveness and if we don't get a immunity, you know, Chinese, you know, LLM makers are going to, you know, beat us to the punch.
• 19:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is ridiculous.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think companies can make great products and be competitive in America because we have, you know,
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: a spirit of capitalism and competitiveness over centuries that has borne that out they also don't need immunity in the process and they want immunity on so many fronts one is regarding I'm going to call it health advice that these
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: robots are giving that are driving people to, you know, make a really awful choices and decisions.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I say, choices and decisions isn't even the right word, but it's, you know, driving them to commit suicide.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like, again, these companies should be held accountable for it.
• 20:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they're also going to want.
• 20:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they've been stealing just, you know, everyone's information, like people write books and they just stolen it.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've stolen all of it.
• 20:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they've paid like some copyrights elements.
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're going to want immunity forever to just steal people stuff.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's outside of the work we do, now it's outside of the typical planus artwork, but like this is going to be a massive legislative battle.
• 20:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have some like Silicon Valley Democrats who are like big on tech big on crypto.
• 20:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's sort of stuff They're willing to support AI companies.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have a lot of people who have a complete Allergy to AI because they believe and not without reason like their jobs are in jeopardy like their like data centers Sort of just popping up everywhere like stealing power and like yeah
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, a lot of issues there.
• 21:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again, is it going to be a major litigation?
• 21:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's I don't know.
• 21:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we don't know yet how a jury's going to react to that sort of thing.
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: What we do know is that these companies like don't care to really put in any safe guards and they they believe that like, you know,
• 21:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are essentially above the law.
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that is the area to watch right now, because they're going to try to prevent a litigation from even getting off the ground.
• 21:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, look, there's debates in Congress right now about policing social media companies and the AI companies aren't just watching that.
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are trying to get themselves inserted into it in a way that preempts state law and give themselves a immunity.
• 21:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So like a space to watch.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.
• 21:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess with this social media stuff, we've, I mean, I guess maybe this is a question of like, do you have any great ideas on how I think in the past plaintiff side cases have focused on like a drug maker, a device, a very like concrete thing that we can see and we can
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, put a plaintiff on TV or whatever it is to show their injury physically.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now these are a bit more abstract where it's hard to show the injury.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to explain depression and suicide.
• 22:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to explain the thought process.
• 22:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: You went through when you were typing into an AI chat bot.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Any thoughts on how that those stories can be told better?
• 22:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 22:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's media platform or
• 22:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: other ways that we can tell those more clearly.
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, look, we're not there as a society yet, but I think over the last by 10 years or so, there has just been a greater public understanding.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: That psychological harm is just as severe or could be more severe than any physical harm.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: and you know you can have let's say someone is like in a car accident okay and they lose an arm lose a leg yes you can see that okay so it's easy for someone to put you know to sort of capture what that means in someone's life but to say you know someone is suffering from depression so severe that they can't function on a day-to-day basis I think
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and then not so many years ago people would be like suck it up and get out of bed and go live your life, okay?
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think now there is a deeper appreciation.
• 23:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think especially amongst younger people that these are real injuries.
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Someone who has suicide ideation, someone who has severe depression.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, this has happened through a lot of different, you know, avenues.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't just one thing, I think you've had a, you know, for example, a bunch of professional athletes who have come forward and who have essentially had to take leave of absences for, you know, drug and alcohol abuse for depression and I think there would have been an error where fans would have revolted.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now I think there was this an understanding of like, hey, these are people who, yes, they may be successful, you know, wealthy athletes, but they are also people who go through real people things.
• 24:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You had COVID that I think put a different perspective for people on mental health.
• 24:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I think you're used to be ashamed and stigma attached to it, and I think in some quarters there are still very much, but I believe that, you know, when I haven't seen any data or polling support this, but I suspect it's there probably is some out there, and I think it would be supportive of the fact that people and juries are made up of people are more understanding of these sorts of things.
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how that translates by the way to like an AI chat bot though.
• 24:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think that's, you know, that's a different ball of wax.
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, I think people understand mental health harms and how a manifest manifest themselves in physical ways is it's been a much it's been a very positive development for society over the last part decade.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.
• 24:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, sometimes I think clients will come to us and say, well, how do we explain this thing that happened?
• 24:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, put people and understand.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, actually, people do understand.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of, there's a lot of people out there who have had horrible things happen to them and they shoved it down before and now, if they see,
• 25:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when else this happened to, if feels comforting rather than shameful.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, and there's just like there's still challenges there.
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, you know, folks do focus groups and jury data.
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Probably have a lot more information on this.
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do suspect amongst the older populations.
• 25:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is.
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's why I still still, you know, that stigma against people, you know, who have a mental health issue.
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I bet there's a socio-economic component to that as well.
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think wealthier people have more access to therapy and then better understanding of those sort of illnesses.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it doesn't make someone like, you know, bad because they, they, but I have to think it is.
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an understanding of the, of a issue you cannot see with your own eyes sometimes.
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 25:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: OK, those are all my really serious questions.
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's not too bad.
• 26:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that went OK.
• 26:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess let's turn to some fun stuff, fun PR or things.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know you, we've talked about Reddit before, and I have recently been monitoring
• 26:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: post-vertict, post-big media push, what's going on on Reddit.
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the times it's really negative and scary in there, but sometimes it's useful feedback for how we phrase things, how we explain cases.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think that we should be using Reddit as a PR tool more and how would you do that?
• 26:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I see a lot of people
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: host a new story in Reddit and just let people comment on it.
• 26:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's helpful for, like, message testing sort of thing.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But is there other conversations that we should be having in Reddit or on similar chat?
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, kind of boards, that might be helpful for message understanding and public.
• 26:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess a couple of things.
• 27:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: One is, I've heard more like, especially SEO people being like, oh, like, I hate this law firm, post on Reddit once in a while.
• 27:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like the worst advice, I think, like, they can smell bullshit or just on Reddit from Lyle away.
• 27:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Reddit is a community and like there's each subreddit is his own community and I think there is a play to become a community member But if you go in and just try to like you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of that has come about because AI trains on a lot of Reddit data, but that doesn't excuse being, I think, don't be about how you engage there.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I read Reddit a lot, and what's interesting about Reddit is it has an algorithm, but it only involves what you decide to like.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: you follow certain subreddits and you can just follow those and see those threads.
• 28:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's a microcosm of a certain slice of America.
• 28:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I read Reddit a lot.
• 28:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I'm not on Facebook or Instagram or X, you know, those I think are largely cesspools and Reddit has its own cesspools, but they're easily avoidable.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think to, you know, again, I often read the comments sections of news articles, and it's not because I think that is the prevailing wisdom or thought, but it is how real, it's real people engaging, and I think it gives some sort of, you know, sight lines or introspection.
• 28:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, if you,
• 28:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's say it's like an AI lawsuit.
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just since you mentioned that before.
• 28:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: If that gets posted in an AI subreddit, I bet the sentiment is going to be much more and negative about the case than if it's posted in a mental health subreddit.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you also have to make sure you're balancing which community members you're hearing from versus just focusing on one where the views are going to be slanted based upon the membership of that of that community.
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I look at it, it kind of lives like a message testing the same way that they do jury, focus group sort of things.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like that.
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, what do I want to see how this group thinks about this subject or see how they vary and how they talk about.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even just like the nuances of an article, sometimes read it, people will really rip an article apart while others don't really do that.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, I just find it an interesting place to look around.
• 29:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's also interesting how people digest news, and I feel like some, there's like this lazy kind of attitude.
• 29:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, like, oh, like the news is dying.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: When it's not, I've said this point, there's more ways to get information than ever.
• 29:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: and the news media business isn't deep trouble.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's in trouble because let's say someone can just go on and read it and see an article and someone pace like, you know, the first three paragraphs of the story, it gives them the gist.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to click through in the article.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that hurts the publisher.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing that's a good thing.
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying it's the way it is.
• 30:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But people are seeing all this information constantly and they are forming opinions on it.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's forming, you know, it's shaping their biases.
• 30:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I totally agree with him.
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like, you know,
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: looking up this stuff on again you got to make sure you're you're going at different subreddits for the same information but I think from a message testing it's like it's like a it's like a mini focus group yeah yeah it's interesting okay anything I guess off of that anything interesting you've read recently whether you found it on Reddit or not that you would want to share with anyone a book an article any subject matter you have found interesting you know I saw you know and I don't know why I'm thinking about this
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think most of it's like a bunch of hogwash.
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was, I was talking about as one of our other colleagues earlier today.
• 30:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Business Insider, which is now known as Insider, I got an email newsletter from the yesterday, and it was like the top 12 hottest to legal AI startups.
• 30:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, I saved the article in my task manager, and said a reminder from a year for now, to see how many of those companies are still going to be around that a year.
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would take half of them will be gone and anyway, again, I think AI has such incredible use cases.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's being used dangerously by many people first and foremost by the AI companies themselves that I think are
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, trying to play God in a lot of ways, but also, you know, you hear about what you're doing, it's really silly, ridiculous stuff like having a regular ego boost, I think it's an interesting way to analyze data, but anyway, I just see more and more, especially in our space, all these legal AI vendors, and I'm like,
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: pick and choose wisely, because, uh, anyway, maybe I'll be proven wrong, and I'll be around the next year, and, you know, maybe I should have been an early investor in one of them.
• 31:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but anyway, uh, I just, um, particularly as we're, um, when we're taping this, um, I'm headed off to, uh, A.J.
• 31:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: in Chicago, when I know there'll be a bunch of, I think, the way I vendor's there.
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just, you know, we'll see how many are around 12 ones for now.
• 32:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't, I don't, I don't wish him ill ill.
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that
• 32:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I met a few at a conference and asked them all kind of the same question and they all like try to differentiate themselves So I respect that but after a while I was like, well, what do you do and then how do you like they act to like their friends and they don't do the same thing But then I started realizing they probably do all the same thing so yeah, I mean it's just it
• 32:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, you know, selfishly, like the AI boom has been, uh, I think good for what we do in two ways.
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: One is you can look at all these AI models and they train on earned media.
• 32:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: They train on on on on the news.
• 32:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we help our clients get in the news to help advance their firms or their cases.
• 32:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is extremely important from an AI perspective.
• 33:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what we do really intersect there, we aren't like, you know, I think there's AI, SEO vendors or GEO, they call it now.
• 33:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's like a bunch of like, like, I don't want to talk about anymore, because this is so absurd.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it just so happens what we do intersects perfectly with how AI trains, so that's been I think one really interesting development.
• 33:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: The second thing is the backlash to AI has also stood just in some ways because people more than ever are craving authenticity.
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: and real-life personal connection, and AI is the antithesis of it.
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is the complete opposite of it, and there is just this repulsion to it.
• 33:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean it's not like a useful tool.
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we use it day in and day out here to help, you know, brainstorm ideas or like, but you know, if someone were to use it here to write something that like, we are, we have,
• 33:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we have like a manual on how AI can and cannot be used to here.
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the human connection that we try to help foster is what people are craving.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I think it's an interesting time and I don't know.
• 34:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see when the bubble bursts.
• 34:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you're saying you're not going to replace me with an AI podcast host, you know, I don't think anyone could be Are the new hand-on edition of the hot takes.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that AI podcast host would have a better background than you have.
• 34:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that would be one improvement, but not anytime soon.
• 34:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
• 34:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 34:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's all my questions for today.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anything else you want to cover that we missed?
• 34:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I love this hot-takes episode.
• 34:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did a great job.
• 34:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much.
• 34:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you all next time in the episode of Raising the Bar with your bottle PR.
• 34:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to this episode or raising the bar with your bottle PR.
• 34:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to subscribe and follow to join us next time.
• 34:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you all then.