Latest / Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast / Viktor Frankl and Man’s Search For Meaning, Pt. 1

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Viktor Frankl and Man’s Search For Meaning, Pt. 1 · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:03
Welcome everyone to the Cure is mine podcasts.
0:07
We have conversations sometimes about topics therapies
0:12
spirituality, and today we have the topic of logotherapy and
0:18
Viktor Frankl, which is a specific type of therapy.
0:22
We will go into it. It is connected with existential
0:27
topics and finding the meaning of purpose of life.
0:32
And emit, you have suggested the topic, you are interested in
0:35
these questions. Anyway, you see certain
0:38
similarities to the way that I work and you expressed interest
0:43
to discuss that with me. And for me it was a good
0:45
opportunity to read for the first time, the classic book,
0:49
which is the historically, the beginning of logotherapy and the
0:57
literature about it. The founding figure of
1:01
logotherapy is Viktor Frankl, he was Austrian was born in the
1:07
beginning of the 20th century. It was socialist, it was a
1:11
psychoanalyst and it was Jewish, which probably was the main
1:16
reason. Why why?
1:18
He unfortunately also had to endure years in the
1:22
concentration, camp, he survived it and shortly afterwards, I
1:27
think in 1946, He wrote the first draft of the book that we
1:34
want to discuss today and which became quite an international
1:37
bestseller. I don't know if it's that
1:38
popular today still, but certainly in the previous
1:41
generations, people who are interested in Psychology and
1:47
Psychotherapy were aware of this book and it is called an
1:53
English, the man's search for meaning and introduction into
1:57
logotherapy. The original German title is
2:03
taught steam. Yacht, some leaves on a usually
2:05
piece of content or teams logo which means in English to still
2:10
say yes to life. A psychologist experiences, a
2:14
concentration, the Concentration Camp.
2:16
So it's quite a different title in English and in German than
2:20
the translated meaning in English, but it's fair to say
2:24
that the English title became the popular one.
2:27
Not so much the German one. Maybe this for a very short
2:34
introduction and I would hand it over to you.
2:38
I'm it. So if you want to add something
2:41
to the context of this publication and fungal and then
2:45
lead over to some questions to start with.
2:49
Yeah, thanks Doc. So, yeah, I think you did the
2:53
introduction. So that's perfect.
2:55
So I'm again, I read this. Sore.
2:59
I listen to this book on Audible, then I got really,
3:02
really interested. So I ordered a copy because I
3:05
wanted to go over some of the concepts that he has mentioned
3:08
and in terms of our podcast. So what we wanted to do, there's
3:13
so much information in here and so much we can talk about which
3:17
we wouldn't be able to cover, but the way we want to start is
3:20
I'll go through the aspects as you said in the German name of
3:27
the book to say, yes. Life.
3:29
Even if they are going through suffering.
3:31
I wanted to cover that part around faith and around
3:35
suffering and also around how can the entire population,
3:41
belief in God, their God, so much even after the suffering.
3:46
So, I wanted to cover that part and then I wanted to get a
3:48
little bit more into logotherapy and the meaning of life and how
3:53
Franco has talked about three aspects in the meaning of life,
3:58
and Every now and then I'll touch upon where I believe in
4:02
working with you for the past three or more years.
4:05
I feel that you maybe you don't follow the therapy but it seems
4:10
you're very close to the way he is working with his patients
4:16
will do it in that way. Okay okay.
4:19
Alright, so with that, let's jump straight into it.
4:23
My first question which I am really, really curious to know
4:26
and I've talked to a lot many other folks about I've never
4:30
gotten a good answer so you are on the spot then for this talk.
4:35
So the question for you, you know, Franco and in this book,
4:40
he literally the first part of the book which is I think 60% of
4:46
the book is the first part. He goes over how and what really
4:51
happened in the concentration camp and you know, although it
4:56
is extremely depressing. Reading it and it really makes
5:02
you question the things you feelin.
5:04
Like for example you know I live in a city where when a light
5:10
rail or tram goes by I get bothered at night to people that
5:15
you mentioned in concentration, camp where they are sharing one
5:19
sheet to cover themselves at night across six or nine people.
5:23
And they were able to sleep in cold with noise and, you know,
5:28
without food, Food. And At that point, he is talking
5:33
about how their belief in their God became stronger.
5:37
And, you know, my question sitting logically here.
5:42
Now again, I have no idea what they've been through, I haven't
5:46
been through that, I don't know, anyone personally was been
5:49
through that, but sitting here, how look at it and I'm like,
5:51
okay, these people in the concentration camp, they were
5:57
suffering such atrocities and They were defining a meaning to
6:03
life or saying yes to life as in the German title.
6:07
Yes, why why would they not choose the easy path and just
6:11
say, you know what, screw it this is too much.
6:13
Let me just walk into the gas chamber and call it a day.
6:16
Why work is still struggling and how are the defining that
6:20
struggle to say? This is the right thing to do.
6:24
And this is how God has put me through the test.
6:26
Like, is it just there trying to find why they are in here and
6:30
defining It or and, and how is their faith getting stronger.
6:33
So I'll stop here to see if we can set this.
6:36
Yes, unfortunately, there is no simple answer.
6:40
We have to, we have to unpack that.
6:43
Now for that, we have to go back to the historical context, both
6:47
of the concentration camps and of fungal writing it down.
6:52
The writing process is far as I understood was a rather
6:55
straightforward spontaneous outpouring of his experiences.
7:00
And And a report on it, which means that he did not have a
7:05
scholarly ambition or two. Discuss, you know, all different
7:10
kinds of eventualities and all different kinds of people to put
7:15
it differently. He simplified and he
7:17
oversimplified, and especially from the historical perspective.
7:22
So when it comes to the description of the Concentration
7:26
Camp, when it comes to the description of what people went
7:29
through and how they reacted to it with faith and, you know,
7:32
hanging onto life. And so on, this is not accurate.
7:37
So, we have to understand that what he described are, certain
7:42
cases that he singled out, and he wanted to do to exemplify a
7:47
principle, for example, the principle of faith, for example,
7:52
the principle of hanging onto life of meaning of life in order
7:56
to make a point. So, so one sec.
7:59
So now let me understand what you're saying.
8:03
So what you're saying is that in his writing and by the way,
8:05
you're writing finish this book, In nine days unless I'm
8:08
mistaken. So from the start to finish, you
8:10
wrote this book in nine days, I couldn't stop reading.
8:13
It's already non-stop, but when he talks about people who, who I
8:20
think believed in suffering and found meaning in suffering and
8:24
people who grew their faith, are we saying that this was a
8:28
minority or maybe not even marry a percentage of population,
8:33
correct? That are we saying that today?
8:35
In Judaism there? Some population, which looks at
8:39
it. And does question, like, I would
8:41
question that how can there be God if you have to go through
8:44
such nightmares? Yes, absolutely.
8:47
So to give a bit more of a context and there is I can start
8:51
with that. I believe that there are two
8:56
sources of, I don't know how to put it where he was not kind of
9:01
honest enough. I feel in writing the book to
9:05
ask you as a Rita, and maybe not knowing too much of the of the
9:11
historical details. Did you get from the book in
9:14
which concentration camp? He was yes.
9:17
Ah, she had said, I've been there too.
9:19
I personally was in Auschwitz twice rather and it was to me.
9:24
It was that so depressing, that I don't think there were any
9:27
never any restaurants around it, but we don't eat that day when
9:31
we were there, it was massively, do everything.
9:34
So yeah, I believe that, okay, no, in this.
9:36
Is a criticism that I have to him and criticism to the later
9:41
additions, maybe in the beginning, it was not clear to
9:43
him but at least for the later additions he was in Auschwitz
9:47
for a few days. He spent most of us.
9:51
It was for years and concentration camps but the it
9:55
appears to the reader as if he spends most of his time in
9:59
Auschwitz. Why?
10:00
Because Auschwitz is, as far as I understood or read it.
10:03
The only concentration camp that he mentions by name in reality,
10:08
he spent two years. So, he was for about three years
10:11
and concentration camps. He spent two of those years in
10:14
today's and starch, which is an today's Czech Republic.
10:19
And This was a concentration camp.
10:21
Now, don't misunderstand me all of them were horrible, right?
10:24
But two reasons, that was a propaganda concentration camp,
10:28
where they put prominent Jews to misdirect the population from
10:35
seeing that there was an extermination going on.
10:38
So this was a concentration camp that was presented as a model
10:42
concentration camp. You know, that of course, harsh
10:44
living conditions and so on, but there was cultural programs and,
10:48
you know, Working and long, but it was not what Auschwitz was,
10:53
which was completely secret location that most people had no
10:58
idea that it existed, it was run by the SS only purpose was
11:03
basically, the main purpose was, especially the last year's to
11:07
just kill an exterminator as efficiently as possible
11:10
divisions dot where Franco spend most of his time in
11:13
concentrations, can comes was not bad.
11:16
So when he mentions Auschwitz from his direct experiences, Has
11:19
he refers to a few days that he spent there while he was
11:23
transported to close to Munich, where he spent his last period
11:28
and its concentration can. So, this is where I feel, he's
11:32
dishonest, or at least he's leaving out an important detail.
11:36
And why I don't know, you know, maybe I'll Schwartz was just
11:40
such a kind of symbol of of the Concentration Camp kind of part
11:49
of the Nazi of I expect then that it felt like a slogan that
11:57
he had to use but this is not where most of his experiences
12:02
come from. The second thing a criticism
12:05
that I would Like to mention is that it seems to the readers if
12:10
kind of this topic of purpose of life emerged from his
12:15
concentration camp experience, even though he doesn't mention
12:17
it kind of explicitly like that, it seems to me.
12:20
Whereas yeah, in fact, he was like one analyst.
12:23
He was a doctor long before the war and he started to work on
12:28
the purpose of life with people already 10 years before, you
12:32
know the last week not to Elijah came out so he came as As a
12:37
psychoanalyst, as a doctor who is already convinced of the
12:41
importance of this purpose of life.
12:44
With that, he already went to this experience of the Nazi
12:47
regime and the concentration camps.
12:50
So, kind of to find that then is not too much of a miracle
12:54
because if you are anyway, inclined to see the existential
12:58
aspects of Life, of course you, you will see it clearly in the
13:02
concentration camps, right? But not to not to dispute that.
13:06
What you just said. But while he was in the camp, if
13:10
I can, you know, based on the readings because I don't know
13:12
anyone, what we have seen right based on the reading, right?
13:16
He did sacrifice, although he had a visa to leave Austria and
13:20
get the u.s. he did, sacrifice not going there.
13:23
And he said that, you know, that was a sacrifice so he could be
13:25
with his ailing parents at the same time, you know?
13:30
Although he mentions that as a sacrifice, he did then also let
13:34
his wife who was pregnant so he He lost his wife and his, you
13:39
know, to be born child in the concentration, camp, right?
13:43
So, I'm not too sure about whether that's something to be
13:47
proud of and not proud of because you did, you know, end
13:50
up being with your parents, but you end up losing a kid who was
13:54
not born and your wife, but he, but he did do that.
13:58
And then when he did come out, he didn't have any family.
14:00
So I don't know whether how many people were able to bounce back
14:05
like he did. Successfully maintained it.
14:09
So I'm not too sure whether he had a meaning to life and he
14:14
stuck with it or whether it helped him because he already
14:19
had a meaning to life. Are you wanted to write a book
14:21
where he had a manuscript before?
14:23
He walked into the camp and you wanted to go from though that?
14:26
I don't know it all but I want to say it.
14:28
I don't know if you had kind of a purpose of that I can assume
14:31
that you had kind of a just topic that you what he wanted to
14:34
do. But yeah he already worked on
14:36
that. That.
14:36
So he had worked on. He used it in therapy.
14:39
Basically it was a topic that was interesting to him so it did
14:42
not discover the topic through the exposure to the
14:46
Concentration Camp experience. He already had it as topic he
14:49
already had it but then coming back to the main point.
14:51
So as you know we had given take the numbers are about 6 million
14:56
Jews and some other population who perished because of the
15:01
whole Nazi effort right now off the people who It survived good,
15:08
you know or is there a good way to know how many of them are
15:11
really religious versus? How many of them?
15:13
Look at it and say, you know? How can there be a God?
15:16
If there are such atrocities easily being done by man on
15:20
another man? Yes it's I mean these things are
15:23
difficult to investigate because you know, back then especially
15:27
there was no purpose or no way to systematically ask people and
15:33
so on but I found A sa basically dealing with this questions by
15:41
by a scholar, called Claudia jefra with the title, was God
15:45
behind the barbed wire and inquiry into Jewish faith and
15:49
practice and all Schwartz. I will leave a link to this
15:53
paper below and I will leave a link to another book which I
15:57
find is if you will interested in kind of the real experience
16:04
especially of Auschwitz. It's called people off.
16:09
People of Auschwitz people in Auschwitz by Hammond langbein
16:13
who spent many years in Auschwitz and he was part of the
16:17
resistance there. He was not Jewish.
16:20
I think he was an inmate there as a socialist.
16:25
And he was working in an office. Basically, he was assisting a
16:32
doctor there and through that he had access to files and people.
16:36
So he knew a lot and he was an instrumental figure.
16:40
Also afterwards in organizing, the Auschwitz trials.
16:44
And so once I was very knowledgeable and his report on
16:48
how life looked like in Auschwitz and the aspects of
16:51
Faith, the aspects of suicide and so on.
16:54
A quite detailed and quite differentiated.
16:57
So, anyone who is interested in details about that would refer
17:02
them to this literature. And this is was also my source
17:06
and like I said in the beginning, it's quite
17:08
differentiated. There were people who lost
17:10
faith. The were suicides even though in
17:14
a much lower number than one would expect Also much higher
17:19
than in the general population but that is no surprise at all,
17:23
when it comes to Faith, there were people who lost faith.
17:27
The were people who found, let me make a bigger jump, their
17:32
faith and the believe in God is not, it's something that is more
17:38
or less. Baked in to the human software,
17:43
they tend to the human software from birth or baked into the
17:46
human software from They have been taught, and they grew up.
17:51
Yeah, it's more than that. It's not just a social
17:53
construct. Its people humans again.
17:58
And again, have create have come up with the believe and
18:04
Supernatural natural entities, and God spirits and so on.
18:09
And it seems to be long to the fabric of the mind and it's not
18:13
just a thought, it's not enough to assume that this is a social
18:17
construct and And that would, you know, we would be able to
18:21
get away with it people. Again, and again, spontaneously
18:23
create this, the belief in that. So having keeping that in mind,
18:32
it makes sense. That if it's part of, you know,
18:35
many people's kind of software so to speak, that it will not
18:39
just vanish because of experiences if there is
18:42
something a stubborn. Willingness a Readiness to
18:49
believe in a god, it makes sense that people will twist somehow
18:54
their experiences so that they can still keep believing God and
18:59
one of these things. And one of the strategies so to
19:03
speak that inmates Jewish inmates did use was to construct
19:08
a non-interventionist hard for example, meaning that there is a
19:16
clear distinction between The realm of the Divine on the realm
19:19
of the God, and the realm of men, and basically to say God
19:23
exists, but it doesn't offend everything.
19:26
This suffering here in the concentration camp.
19:28
The suffer suffering that we have to endure his Jews.
19:31
This is man-made. This is not God made.
19:34
This was one of the answers of people.
19:37
To on the one hand, keep their faith and on the other hand to
19:43
kind of to make it compatible with the experiences.
19:47
We'll eat it itself. Is he saying man-made.
19:50
So I think, you know, again, not to jump into it, but he did
19:53
mention in one of the places here that what he meant when he
19:59
was defining it, as that there is something more than what
20:02
happens here. And what he's saying is as men
20:06
or as humans our imagination or a math, mind is limited.
20:11
So, he gave an example of a chimpanzee and he's like if a
20:14
chimpanzee is in a lab and he's getting poked 10 times a day.
20:19
Yeah, the chimpanzee may not realize because he doesn't have
20:23
the the vision like humans do. He may not realize that his
20:29
getting poked and times a day although it's really painful for
20:32
him. It's for the bigger good because
20:36
we may be able to discover some medicine or some kind of therapy
20:39
through that. So there is something bigger and
20:42
what you were saying is if let's say me as a human, I'm getting
20:45
pulled 10 times a day or I'm putting Trial or something, and
20:48
maybe My Sacrifice would help a million others after me.
20:52
So if you look at it, there is a bigger cause and and what he's
20:55
saying is what we should do is we should look at all our
20:59
suffering and say okay, maybe we don't understand it but there is
21:02
a bigger thing to it. I didn't hundred percent agree
21:07
to it although I agree on the medical aspect what he was
21:10
talking about, but a suffering that human goes through sitting
21:14
back and saying, okay, maybe there is something more to it.
21:16
Do it. If there was, we would have
21:18
already found out. I'm hoping so I didn't resonate
21:22
to me, I don't know. What do you think of that and
21:24
how his definition of believing in God, believing in a world
21:27
outside of our work? Well, I'm not there yet.
21:31
I'm just describing that it was not, you know, what?
21:34
Went there was not a Jewish response to Faith in
21:39
concentration camps. The was a whole variety.
21:42
There were, people are lost faith but are people who
21:44
believed in a non-interventionist god.
21:47
Orthodox. There apparently was a camp of
21:50
Orthodox Jews, who believed that this was a punishment by God as
21:55
a reaction to juice mingling with Gentiles.
21:58
So to intermarriages, there were people who believed that, that
22:04
there is kind of God, intended them to witness to keep them
22:07
alive as Witnesses. So that afterwards, they can
22:10
describe it to the world. So that was a whole range, a
22:13
whole range of everyone came up with their own meaning as well.
22:17
What you're telling me, right? So sir, I maybe there were not a
22:20
million ways of how to deal with that.
22:22
But there were many categories and it was not just, you know, a
22:25
typical Jewish response to it. So, basically what you're saying
22:30
is it's about any man, any religion being thrown into a
22:34
situation and it's about the survival of that person.
22:39
If they are willing to survive the come up with.
22:43
Okay, I need to survive because I'm a business to it.
22:45
And I need to go back and tell people, or I need to survive
22:48
because, you know, I'll meet my family after this or whatever.
22:51
That reason might be yes. Or another example, and the many
22:55
many ways, right? Other people stayed alive.
22:59
Out of spite, apparently basically said, I will not do
23:03
them the favor. Those Nazis to die on them now
23:06
or to commit suicide. I Will Survive, you know,
23:11
because I will not then break me.
23:14
I will not let them break me, for example, which is a non
23:17
Faith, kind of responses, it's kind of little faith.
23:20
Free faith, free response, which is still connected to purpose
23:25
and meaning. But yes, I mean, overall, when
23:28
we look at this whole, this whole Spectrum, I think it's
23:32
relatively fair to say that people who saw some purpose in
23:37
their suffering, beat faith. We'd secular whatever it was
23:41
that it helped them to stay strong enough to make it and
23:47
that probably if someone lost they lost the meaning of life
23:52
that it was much less likely that they had anything to hold
23:56
on and to see a reason to go get up in the morning, to go to the
24:02
drills and people who didn't go to the drills were severely,
24:04
punished and killed and so on. So yes, it was an important.
24:09
Element, whatever. The purpose was to help them up.
24:14
That's interesting. Okay, so, That makes sense.
24:19
So basically you kind of like answered both questions and I'm
24:22
going through what I wanted to discuss with you.
24:25
So, in terms of Faith, what we are saying is it wasn't very
24:28
apparent. That okay, these guys went in,
24:31
they got punished, they came out with more faith in their
24:34
religion. Some people, there's some
24:36
people, then some people came out being upset.
24:38
Some people came out saying, I'm going to kill other people as a
24:41
result, right? So, we had various reactions,
24:44
obviously there's no good way to understand it, but you post
24:47
those links, which we And review from an outsider's view into how
24:51
they viewed the population which was in there.
24:54
So we'll do that. And in terms of survival, what
24:56
you answer goes, everyone probably had a different
24:59
reaction. So, some believed, like, in case
25:02
of Viktor Frankl P believe that he is surviving or car, his
25:08
response to the atrocities is how he judged himself as how he
25:14
responds to life and using that Use that to survive saying, no,
25:20
I'm going to respond to it. Good.
25:22
And I'm going to survive that various other people could be
25:25
spiked out of people could be, you know, that God is punishing
25:28
us. So we should go to the
25:29
punishment and so on and so forth.
25:31
So it was all over the place. So those kind of plays and to
25:33
give you just another demographic aspect apparently.
25:36
Yeah. The the suicide rates also
25:40
dependent on where the Jewish inmates came from the
25:42
Concentration Camp inmates. So apparently Jews from From the
25:48
Netherlands from Holland were more prone to commit suicide.
25:52
And also on earlier, stages in Auschwitz, then Jews from Poland
25:57
and the Czech Republic. Now why that is?
25:59
We don't know. But just something that comes to
26:02
my mind, maybe there were more used to a harsh living
26:05
conditions than maybe more well-off juice from the
26:10
Netherlands. But there were those differences
26:12
and just shows that everyone found himself thrown into those
26:17
horrible. Bounces and everyone had to
26:19
somehow come up with you know, the motivation to go on and it
26:25
was not enough to copy and paste.
26:28
You know, to look at the next bunk inmate and to ask him, how
26:32
do you survive and says? Well, I believe that God has a
26:35
plan for us and then say, okay, let me believe that as well.
26:38
No, everyone had to challenge to come up with something that fit,
26:42
or didn't to the circumstances there.
26:45
So it's very fractured very With a wide spectrum of responses
26:50
that people came up with. And so this is something to keep
26:54
in mind when one reads a report like fungos to not think that
26:58
there was a general approach or, you know.
27:01
Yeah. Like a like a white brain.
27:04
Yes, paintbrush approach. Okay, that makes sense.
27:07
I think I think that is good. So then getting to get into the
27:12
other part right? Where he is relating all this to
27:15
meaning where he is relating all this 22, which brings us into
27:21
the logotherapy, right? So keep made this one comment
27:24
and I'll read this. Comment work with them and
27:25
that's something that, you know, maybe we can talk about for a
27:27
couple minutes on that. So, So in it says it is V
27:34
ourselves who must answer the question that life asks of us
27:39
and to these questions, we can only respond by being
27:42
responsible for our existence. Yes.
27:47
Does that make sense to you? It is V ourselves who must
27:51
answer the question that life asks us.
27:53
And what he's saying in here is from what I read when we are
27:57
when be sick on a Tuesday afternoon and we are like, oh,
28:00
We know I'm not doing anything meaningful.
28:02
Is this adding value to society? Does it even make sense?
28:07
So in that sense, what he's saying is we are not asking that
28:10
question, he's saying that we are being asked that question by
28:14
life and to these questions. We can only respond by being
28:17
responsible for our existence that made no sense to me.
28:22
And I've tried to think about it, for many, many days.
28:24
Yeah. So, does it make sense to you?
28:26
And what it means? It doesn't make sense to me when
28:29
I see his Roach in a way of thinking and a tradition that
28:35
was much more prominent. The beginning of the 20th
28:39
century, which we were kind of the revolutions that came with
28:44
existential philosophy and writers, like Nietzsche and
28:47
Dostoevsky. And I think for an important
28:51
aspect and then clearly, I mean, the was people discussed these
28:54
things, it was a very prominent intellectuals, the avant-garde
28:58
it was something that they dealt with a lot.
29:01
Freud himself again to remind the audience.
29:05
Fungal was a, psychoanalysts, he was for his first years in the
29:09
tradition of art Le are learn, the traditional Freud, and so
29:12
on. And for it was very well-read,
29:17
very learned. He definitely, you know, read
29:20
enough me to understand you have ski and so did many others.
29:24
And an important point for nature was not just the
29:28
existential outlook on life and that, It has a meaning but that
29:32
we cannot take hints and marks from from existing Traditions
29:39
Nietzsche's. Criticism was specifically
29:42
against Christianity, but he criticized also, many other
29:46
Traditions. So basically need to work to
29:50
say, to make a very simple Point here, we have to find the
29:55
meaning of life for ourselves. We have to expose ourselves to
30:00
those existential questions that come up.
30:02
But if we are honest to ourselves intellectually honest,
30:06
then we cannot try to perform and adopt the answers that any
30:12
good and tradition was given us. So basically saying it's foolish
30:18
to believe in the Christian ideas of meaning of life.
30:22
Then you're just a sheep and you're just you know follow then
30:25
you're just adopting a philosophy of It's no, you have
30:29
to face yourself the challenges and facing the challenges, you
30:33
have to be alone. You cannot deny the motion so
30:37
that is a very but that is a very hard way and keep
30:41
Christianity aside, right? Yes.
30:43
One of the things that even in logotherapy and I'm going all
30:47
over the place now say is by experiencing something on
30:50
encountering someone. In other words, meaning can be
30:53
found, not only and work, but also in love.
30:56
So I think What does could also mean as a lot of people have
31:01
kids. So you first your bone, you're
31:04
told to study, then you're told to find a good job and you're
31:07
told to marry have kids and then your life is busy with kids and
31:12
you're loving the kids. So now you're loving a person
31:15
who is external to you. So you are viewing the world
31:18
through their eyes, you are enjoying life through them,
31:20
you're getting into trouble because they do something
31:22
foolish. And now you spend pretty good
31:25
amount of time with them and then their kids and so on and so
31:27
forth. So, if you look at the
31:29
traditional way, we were supposed to live, that's a much
31:33
simpler and easier way. So why would we not follow that?
31:38
And let's say, if you do use an alternate world, that's in my
31:41
case, I didn't have don't have kids.
31:43
Now, that is more of a question, but okay, I can own money.
31:46
I can grow, but then, what I can travel.
31:49
But then what right? And now, that is where I have
31:52
enough time to sit and think, what's the meaning of life.
31:55
Whereas, if I had two kids, I wouldn't have time to do
31:58
anything. Thing right like wouldn't that
32:00
make it easier come back to what nature says not to follow the
32:05
standard? No, it wouldn't because it
32:07
doesn't relieve, you of, it doesn't relieve you of a
32:12
possibility, to really tap into something.
32:15
And obviously I work with people intimately for many years
32:20
already. And there are many people that I
32:22
came across who Didn't know exactly what to do with their
32:28
life and entertain the thought. Oh, maybe I should have kids,
32:32
maybe that would absolve me of this burden of what to do with
32:36
myself Ryan. Some of them then do and then it
32:41
fails. This is an odd word fail is that
32:44
because the kids are still kids and then you don't feel
32:47
anything. It's not that, you know, you
32:51
have a kid. And then the purpose and meaning
32:54
of life button, switch is on and you tapped into, you know, the
32:58
ancient longer power source or, you know, whatever it is.
33:03
That is the Hope. Now, you're screwed because now
33:06
you have you can't return it either, right?
33:08
So now you're talking, of course, your occupied with busy.
33:12
Yeah, to be busy is something different than to have a purpose
33:15
to tap into that, which builds you up with gives you a
33:19
perspective to life and so on. So this is kind of criticism
33:24
that Mutual would have had is you cannot be a copy, you cannot
33:31
be a copy of someone else, you cannot live the life of someone
33:35
else. Else and hope to reap the same
33:37
rewards that they got from their way.
33:41
It simply doesn't work. So then, what is he saying?
33:45
In that sense? Then is he saying?
33:47
So let's take for me, for example, I don't know how long
33:50
that it's been quite a while that I've been trying to find
33:54
something, which gives me more purpose.
33:56
And I've been trying different things on and off here and
33:58
there, whatever and the covid coming through, it seems like
34:02
more and more people just to give you an idea one of the
34:05
kids. I was interviewing from school
34:07
for a job. I asked her, what is she looking
34:10
to do? And she said, she wants to do
34:12
something me. Meaningful.
34:13
What is it that we do at my workplace which is Meaningful?
34:17
And I was pretty surprised, but that question coming from
34:20
someone who is barely 21 asking if we do something which is
34:25
Meaningful and that goes back to a lot of other people.
34:28
If you ask them today, they want to do something meaningful.
34:30
There's a small percentage who wanted to make a lot of money
34:34
and then figure out everything later, but the majority of them
34:37
want to do something meaningful. So now this question is coming
34:41
all the way or it is going. Going back all the way to to
34:44
that level. Maybe because we don't have to
34:46
worry about food or, you know, stay or something.
34:51
So how do we then now navigate this?
34:54
Yes, and here, it's it's important to look at the details
35:00
and this and here would distinguish two levels.
35:03
One level is What the meaning, what having a meaning does to
35:08
us, having a meaning to life, does to us, what benefits we get
35:13
from this? And this is something that
35:15
funked a focuses on it describes, many cases of how
35:19
having a meaning turn can turn around someone's life or it
35:23
gives them the strength and the loved carry on and so forth,
35:26
right? It goes into determining for
35:28
this. I would distinguish this from a
35:32
phenomenon that we have today a lot, which is people who want to
35:38
have a purpose. It's a self-imposed kind of
35:42
Ideal it. Something on the bucket list to,
35:45
you know, kind of make a set out of it.
35:48
Okay, plant and tree, finding the meaning of life.
35:51
Let me go on a pilgrimage. Let me spend a week in an
35:54
ashram. Let me do a soul search seminar,
35:59
which are driven not by the Insight of what a purpose in
36:04
life can give me, it's driven by The Hope.
36:09
Which is not something that I have, I envisioned something.
36:12
I imagine that getting this would make me fulfilled.
36:18
And there is something a correct with that.
36:21
That is a feature that we have in so many aspects.
36:24
It's on our lives. From the simplest most crude
36:27
form of capitalism. If I think that if I have this
36:30
car I will be fulfilled. If I think I have this position
36:33
or this amount of money. I will be fulfilled is obviously
36:37
you know the most kind of primitive implementation of the
36:40
promises of capitalism up to if I have this lava, if I have this
36:45
partner, if I have children Which is maybe a little more
36:48
subtle and then the spiritual version.
36:51
Oh, if I, if I were a good meditator, if I were to find a
36:55
meaning of in life, if I were to love myself or something like
36:59
this, these subtle ideas, then I would be fulfilled.
37:02
All of these have in common something that we discussed many
37:10
conversations ago. This imaginary aspect of our
37:14
mind, our mind creates a projection Ian.
37:18
It's fascinated by the projection of what this image
37:22
would be. And imagines that if it were to
37:25
Incorporated, it would be, it would be a reflection of this
37:29
perfect image that it had, which is then the carrot that I run
37:33
after. And some people do that for many
37:35
years to run after carrot that they never seem to fully catch.
37:41
Okay, so then coming coming back to that point, right?
37:45
And now, before I jump into this other one, One?
37:48
Yes, if that is not what we are to do, which, you know, you and
37:52
I had had multiple discussions on that.
37:54
That is not which we are to do not to run after the carrot then
37:57
every now and again, when you think of this question, I don't
38:01
know whether your Consciousness is asking you or whether you're
38:04
just sitting and getting bored. Because obviously, when you are
38:06
happy in traveling and you're having a great time.
38:09
We're gonna wear when I'm in the middle of a very exciting event.
38:14
Does it come up that go? Are you doing something
38:17
meaningful? Only comes up when I'm sitting
38:18
in a board. So when this question does come
38:23
up, what are we supposed to say? And maybe I'm getting bored, let
38:25
me do something fun or and continue living your life and
38:29
know that, you know, there is no specific purpose or any meaning
38:32
to life and itself, other than just have fun and be nice to
38:37
other people. And then one day, you just die.
38:39
Is that what you do or like what would you recommend people to do
38:43
who have these kind of questions?
38:45
Well, first of all, I would say Say it's kind of obvious that we
38:50
have to go through iterations and phases.
38:53
So my very first answer would be try it, maybe for you it's not a
38:57
carrot. Now, do and go and do work a
39:01
tent at an NGO. Maybe it works for you, right?
39:06
Because who am I to know? I don't know.
39:09
So you're saying, give it a shot big to to figure out whether
39:12
this is something that is coming in Borden?
39:15
Yeah, for this is something, which is real.
39:17
You need to do something about it.
39:19
So gather up the guts to say, screw it.
39:23
I'm going to leave my job and work at an NGO or do part-time,
39:26
whatever it feels like and give it a shot and see if that helps
39:30
you fulfill and you or something really do it in a way that is
39:33
not too invasive. You know, maybe you can start
39:35
going to volunteer in on the weekends so that you don't do
39:38
drastic measures. Of getting rid of your
39:40
livelihood or something like this before, you can it give it
39:43
a try and see how it feels like. And then if you feel the spark
39:47
and the Fulfillment and satisfaction that comes with
39:50
that, then obviously it makes sense to take a slightly bigger
39:54
risk or to jump into it. Take a sabbatical and just do
39:57
the NGO work or something like that.
39:59
And what about people who have no clue like that to someone
40:02
feels that doing some NGO, work. May help them and what about
40:05
people who have no clue of what could help what do Do they do
40:10
well and here's a, he would come to a point where to where I
40:14
would convey to people. There is no algorithm.
40:18
Okay, there's no copy paste as you were saying, yes.
40:20
And if someone comes and says, tells me I have no in antenna
40:25
know, in a sense of whatsoever that would kind of direct me a
40:29
little bit into any direction, right?
40:31
Is it to teach children, is it to work with domestic abuse?
40:36
Women is a to Organized micro credits to Farmers.
40:41
You know, if there's someone who says, look at zero clue, my
40:44
inside, gives me no clue whatsoever.
40:47
I would have to tell them. Look, this is difficult.
40:49
I don't think that you have a high chances just accidentally
40:52
stumble into your purpose of life.
40:57
And I think that's honest, I don't think that there is a,
40:59
what do they, what do they do then get on antidepressants?
41:03
Well, no step by step, then you know, if you're at that stage
41:08
then it's really to maybe this is something that fungal also
41:12
had in mind, create experiences, creating clearances develop,
41:17
some sort of self-care develop a rapport with your inside, with
41:20
the unconscious. So, there are some ways to
41:24
Create a fertile soil, within yourself to just increase the
41:28
probability that you might resonate with something, which
41:34
is really baby steps. If you really like, you try five
41:38
different things and see which interests you see what happens.
41:41
Yeah. I would, I would caution them
41:45
about, you know, being idealistic and having too much
41:49
of this imaginary register this imaginary mode.
41:53
So don't get carried. Right away.
41:55
Be patient. When you see someone having, you
42:00
know, found the purpose of life and helping disabled children,
42:03
don't think that it necessarily has to be you.
42:06
Try it and see what happens. Yeah, patient, observe yourself.
42:10
Get a report with the self so that to develop those first bits
42:15
of those, antennae, that might help you in the long run to at
42:19
least, find something that is more meaningful to.
42:21
You don't get up on this. Super big question.
42:25
The meaning of life find fields of relevance where you can spend
42:30
some time with and develop yourself.
42:33
Yeah. And just so I tried that too a
42:36
couple times to help disabled children.
42:37
I got even more depressed than anything at the end of that and
42:41
it was very tiring and exhausting and I don't know how
42:44
people do it, but it was very exhausting.
42:46
So it's great that you're trying, but it's only kind of,
42:50
it's only painful if you had if you put all your eggs in that
42:53
basket is like Okay, I'll try something classically, kind of
42:56
traditionally meaningful. And if that doesn't work, then I
43:00
give up. No, it's you try it, you learn
43:02
from it. You find out something about
43:04
yourself that you need something, more encouraging, and
43:07
uplifting and so on. And then you try the next thing,
43:10
right? So on that, and a segue from,
43:13
that is another thing that I want to read in the book, right?
43:16
So what is also happening is me and a lot of people that I spoke
43:20
to who, also I recommended this book too.
43:25
Was how we were trained and Frankel talks about that and
43:30
I'll read it. How we are, especially me and my
43:33
generation was trained in finding the usefulness of the
43:37
best urn culture of finding usefulness.
43:40
So, the question is, is what you are doing useful.
43:43
Are you useful, right? If you if you grow to a certain
43:46
title or if you grow to a certain position or you make
43:48
certain money or your successful, for example, then
43:52
you feel your useful, you're adding value to society.
43:55
And if you don't then you feel that you are hmm, whatever
43:58
whether you live or you die doesn't matter.
44:01
So in in this book, what he's saying is the usefulness is
44:05
usually defined in terms of functioning for the benefit of
44:10
society, right? So am I adding any value to
44:13
society? If I'm not gonna, I'm not
44:15
useful. But today's society is
44:19
characterized by achievement orientation.
44:21
And consequently, it adores people who are Successful and
44:25
happy. And in particular it adores the
44:28
young. It virtually ignores the value
44:31
of all those who are otherwise and in so doing blurs the
44:35
decisive difference between being value in the sense of
44:39
dignity. Yes and being valuable in the
44:42
sense of usefulness. Does that make sense to you in
44:47
terms of what he's saying? I mean my interpretation of that
44:50
is to say, you know, my usefulness is if I was able to
44:54
take care of my aging parents or if I was able to take care of my
44:59
friend ball, he needed me, but all that is not visibly
45:05
available on social networks. So people probably don't know
45:09
what I have done or what I am doing to help other people.
45:14
And you know, The outside of me is whatever I am on LinkedIn or
45:20
in my company. So what they're saying is think
45:22
about usefulness, in terms of where are you adding value, and
45:25
who are you? Adding value to, maybe you put,
45:27
it's not just a title or something, but what do you think
45:30
is trying to mention when he talks about usefulness?
45:33
And how should people look at that?
45:35
Well, I would go further than that.
45:36
There is something in what you say that, basically, to extend
45:39
once idea of value, from creating value for the company,
45:44
or for society, The two more fields that are not as tangible.
45:49
And measurable the value that I give to my friends because I
45:52
make them happy, the value that I give as a son as a father, you
45:57
know, to my family because I'm there for them, right?
46:01
So this is certainly one level that makes it more subtle, my my
46:05
value. But there is a, there is the
46:10
root form much more pervasive criticism there.
46:15
And to remind to remind the audience, you wrote this in this
46:20
in the mid 40s. So what sounds like, you know,
46:23
criticism that would be just as applicable today is, you know,
46:28
basically, 80 years ago and a contemporary of his Kyoto
46:33
adorno. He was a also Jewish philosopher
46:37
who was very kind of radical and his criticism of capitalist
46:41
Society back then in Germany, and in Europe, and in the US.
46:45
Yeah. And for him, it was not so much
46:48
to see. Also value in less tangible, you
46:52
know, fields of life like friendships and so on.
46:55
But to see value as such and being, and this is something
47:01
that people struggle with today and where a lot of the topic
47:07
that we have of self-love. You know, that obviously has
47:10
been prominent in the last few years.
47:12
This is the attempt to regain that.
47:15
I don't want to just for other people, so forget to work,
47:19
forget kind of being functional. And utilitarian for society, I
47:24
also want to be a value for myself apart from my partner,
47:28
just don't want to be just the partner don't want to be just
47:31
the kid just to Father, just the friend.
47:34
I want to feel it for myself that I have value.
47:38
Okay, that's even more subtle. I want to be, I don't want to do
47:44
a gate to get value just because I do something for other people.
47:48
I want to be. So how do you get value?
47:50
If you don't do anything for anyone and you're just living
47:53
for yourself? Well a value for myself.
47:56
Yes. I mean not to say that I'm doing
47:58
just that Unbecoming whatever recluse and happily living for
48:04
myself within myself, but not to derive not to be dependent on
48:09
the value that I create for society, create for my partner,
48:12
great for my friends, because then inside, I'm Hollow then I'm
48:16
and he then, whenever I feel Feel lonely.
48:20
I feel empty. I feel bad.
48:22
I need to grab the phone. I need to talk to someone.
48:25
I need to make someone laugh. I need to be sexy for someone
48:29
and only. Then again, I feel that I'm
48:31
worthy. I don't want to be hanging up
48:33
that I want to be able to feel fulfilled from myself without
48:37
creating benefit for in any way. So coming coming back to that
48:42
and what you just said that is more, that is harder to do.
48:46
I mean I haven't been able to do that for myself.
48:49
So I don't know how easy that is to do.
48:50
But you know from his perspective what he's saying is
48:55
how society looks and makes people feel not valued versus
49:00
how you are of some value, even though you're doing things for
49:04
others, you're up value. So you can look at yourself and
49:07
say, well, you know, if I'm making money Also donating here.
49:11
I'm also helping people person a b and c at work to get to the
49:15
next level. Although at the end of it, none
49:17
of that makes any sense to anyone because all of us are
49:19
going to die anyways. But then if we come to the
49:22
subtle level, that you mentioned, where you should feel
49:24
valuable for yourself, even and not not have a, not have a
49:29
complete dependency on. I need to do something for my
49:33
parents, or my wife, or my kids to be valuable, how do you get
49:38
to that? Because he didn't mention That
49:40
in the book yet, but I think you have a point.
49:43
How do you get there? Yes, this is well, again,
49:48
there's no simple path there, but it's basically, to practice
49:53
a non-judgmental attitude towards oneself.
49:56
This is made up of putting it, and that's coming back to
50:00
self-love or what they call it being kinder to yourself or
50:03
something. Well, too.
50:06
I mean, so far in our conversation, I was very
50:08
deconstructive kind of emphasizing the different
50:11
aspects and the dead ends, you know, and Ryan impossibilities
50:15
to just adopt and copy/paste a strategy.
50:17
But to give something a little bit more positive at this point
50:21
when I do a practice of contemplation, when I observe
50:26
myself, when I experience something and bit by bit, I'll
50:32
be able to disempower the judge within me.
50:38
And I'm able to be with the phenomenon, be, you know, a
50:41
physical experience, be feeling the pain, we did something nice
50:46
being sitting in the park and watching the Ducks, all right?
50:50
And I'm able through practice just slowly just experienced
50:54
that and just observe without putting a value or label or
50:58
judging it in any way. Then as a result of that,
51:03
Relatively surely something emerges within the feeling of
51:10
contentment. It's not just an emptiness that
51:12
comes to us like okay well I sit there, nothing happens.
51:14
So what big deal I can sit on a park bench know, when I can, you
51:19
know, disempower this in a judge that always tries to figure out
51:24
what is of value to me, or if I'm a good person on that moment
51:28
or what I should do, in the next moment, you know, all those
51:31
questions. Then with time, there is a
51:34
contentment that emerges and that contentment brings with it.
51:39
Not explicitly it's not waving a sign of this is purpose this
51:43
meaning but it carries within an implicit sense of fulfillment.
51:51
And to use another vocabulary which is slightly misleading
51:55
nowadays and outdated, a sense of purpose.
52:01
It feels like okay, okay. So so I can take two to a goal
52:06
aims at that, right? And and and I think one of them,
52:08
you wouldn't much agree with is, you're sitting, and you're
52:11
watching a duck and you feeling content, like whether you sit
52:16
and watch a darkened, feel content, whether you are alive,
52:18
or dead, doesn't really matter. But then to that, you'll tell me
52:21
no one's life, really matters. And even if you destroy the
52:24
entire Earth, really matter. Why does the question of
52:28
mattering at that moment? Yeah.
52:31
It's completely seems to matter why.
52:33
That's the only part of matters is that you.
52:36
Yeah, that you're appealing content and you're enjoying.
52:38
So all you're doing is enjoy writes about us.
52:42
You're doing to put it in philosophical terms.
52:44
You enjoy your existence? Yes, and you're a, you enjoy
52:46
your existence. So then should be look at just
52:51
enjoying our existence because is that what we should?
52:55
What our goal should be? And in terms of enjoying our
52:58
existence, we should do, The right thing because someone may
53:02
eat, you know, some people are vegetarian, some are reused,
53:07
some just love to eat beef. So someone is eating beef and
53:10
they're really enjoying themselves and who was someone
53:12
else to say Hey you shouldn't eat it right?
53:14
Like where does this enjoyment and stop or go?
53:19
Well and is it all about enjoying in like then to keep it
53:22
simple? Yes.
53:23
So that's a good point of differentiate that I don't mean
53:25
and hedonistic enjoyment of. Okay the beef and now I Want
53:31
some Salman and now that is not enough.
53:33
Let me enjoy something, it's not the enjoyment of experiences.
53:36
It's enjoying me in the experience.
53:39
It's a self satisfaction. It's self gratifying.
53:44
Self-satisfaction and self gratifying without becoming
53:49
obsessed with that. Like some people I'm not
53:52
depending on the Ducks to give me enjoyment.
53:53
I can sit in an empty room and be non-judgmental and enjoy
53:56
myself. Okay, without dependency, it's
53:59
not traditional. Okay, so you're saying enjoying
54:02
by yourself. But now, what you're saying is I
54:05
don't want to call it Bliss because that gets too far out.
54:08
So what you're saying is if you are happy just by yourself or
54:11
within yourself and enjoying the moment, Whether it is cold, hot
54:15
windy, you know, dry, whatever that is and then that is what
54:21
you should strive at and then the questions around meaning in
54:24
life, the usefulness draw. So is that well, you know that
54:30
we can see with the you should because there's you should
54:34
automatically creates a judge and I am not in a kind of in the
54:38
present moment, right? I so don't want to create
54:41
another kind of goal, another obstacle and another Criteria
54:45
for judging myself that I have not achieved it.
54:48
All right? Because then afterwards, that
54:50
makes sense that you're always thinking, you didn't get it.
54:53
Like when you sit and meditate you you feel you should feel
54:55
something but 90 percent of the time, I don't feel anything.
54:58
All right, we're back at square. One after we have trying to feel
55:02
myself as like, oh, what about useless person?
55:05
I am. I wasn't able to be determined.
55:09
Yeah exactly. Yeah.
55:10
So that was careful with those conclusions but then and I know
55:14
we are running on time and we can probably stop at this and
55:18
then I have a couple more questions you can do in next
55:20
one. But in here, then when he talks
55:23
about the usefulness, what is he trying to say?
55:27
Or do you agree with what he's saying?
55:30
Or do you feel that what he's saying is partially okay?
55:34
And not the entire thing because he Dives deep into it, right?
55:39
So, and he goes about usefulness.
55:42
Also, he mentions in terms, Old people and what he says, old
55:46
people may not have anything to look, you know, look forward to
55:49
in the future. But they have done so many
55:52
things in their life that they can sit back and say, oh God, I
55:54
had so many opportunities. I did so many things that no one
55:58
can take it away from me. Whereas I may be sitting here at
56:01
40 something and I'm thinking, okay, you know, what can I do in
56:06
the next 10 years, which could prove to be more than I can
56:12
imagine or more valuable. On to the next set of generation
56:15
or people or something. Yes.
56:18
So a simple understanding that I have him a, maybe I'm
56:21
oversimplifying him but my impression is that he basically
56:24
says look the meaning to find meaning of life is super
56:27
important. I don't care how I don't care
56:30
what you believe in it, just met us that you find some purpose.
56:34
If you find purpose in looking back at your life, right?
56:37
If you find purpose and looking forward to the next thing to do,
56:40
great, if you find purpose in helping others super, if you
56:43
find a And work beat that. Just find some meaning of life,
56:48
just find some purpose. So if my sense is that he's
56:52
rather, you know, eclectic and pragmatic and I don't mind that,
56:57
I think that's cool. You know, because if you was if
57:01
he was kind of prescriptive and telling people do this to that,
57:05
you would automatically run into the issue of people trying and
57:09
failing and then being frustrated and we're kind of
57:13
being that open. And I think that it's there's
57:16
more of a chance that when you actually work with people, that
57:19
you are open-minded enough as the therapist to guide people to
57:23
whatever their inclinations are and maybe it's a dualistic and,
57:27
you know, having traveling around the world and doing
57:30
sports and I think food and so on, then it's that if that is
57:35
your purpose that makes you happy good.
57:37
Good for you. Okay, so I think that's good.
57:41
So if you want, we can probably close at this.
57:44
Today I do have to go through the three tenants of
57:47
logotherapy. Maybe we can do a 30-minute on
57:50
that later. Yes.
57:52
Sure. Let's do that.
57:53
Cool. All right.
57:54
Doc thank you very much for your time and hopefully someone will
57:58
find this useful. Okay?
58:01
Alright take care. Bye bye.