Latest / Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar / 9/9/26: Wild Socialist Conference Goes Off The Rails, New Doc Exposes Caribbean Boat Strikes

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9/9/26: Wild Socialist Conference Goes Off The Rails, New Doc Exposes Caribbean Boat Strikes · Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.
• 0:01
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• 0:33
  Speaker 4: Well, in the last several days, social media, at least
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: some people's social media feeds, have been filled with wild
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: clips from the Socialism 2026 conference. And, you know, I
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: have to say, every time there's some ideological confab on
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: the right... There's some, what we call in the journalism business,
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: nut picking that happens, right? So where the panels that
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: feature some of the kind of fringiest or craziest or
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: most zealous people at the conference saying absolutely wild stuff
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: goes viral and it's like, oh, here is the rise
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: of fascism. And then as somebody who's kind of plugged
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: into the conservative movement, you look at it and you're like,
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: it's concerning. I don't like it. It should be smothered
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: in the crib. Is it representative? Maybe not. Sometimes it
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: is genuinely representative of a growing movement, but it isn't always.
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: And so I feel like we try pretty hard not
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: to do that on this show. So Ryan, on that note,
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: the Socialism 2026 conference, I am hoping you can help
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: us understand how serious or not serious some of these incredibly,
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, what we can all agree on, serious or not,
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: is that this shit is hilarious. So how funny some of,
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: or how serious some of these funny clips are.
• 1:43
  Speaker 5: So this is This is Emily's payback to us for nutpicking.
• 1:49
  Speaker 5: I did not pitch this segment.
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: For the record, I did not pitch this segment.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 1:54
  Speaker 6: So let's roll a couple of clips for people who missed.
• 1:58
  Speaker 6: So first here we have Beatrice Adler Bolton. She's the
• 2:01
  Speaker 6: co-host of the podcast Death Panel and the co-author of
• 2:05
  Speaker 6: the book Health Communism. This is one of the ones
• 2:09
  Speaker 6: that all of these clips have gotten many millions of
• 2:12
  Speaker 6: views on Elon's app. but this one is maybe in
• 2:17
  Speaker 6: the top five, so let's roll her clip.
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: You have to give up the fantasy of being fitter
• 2:23
  Speaker 7: than the fascists. It's not just that it's cringe or
• 2:26
  Speaker 7: strategically bad, though it is. I think it's also politically revealing.
• 2:36
  Speaker 7: Fitness is a measure of relative disposability under capitalism. Our
• 2:42
  Speaker 7: task is not to become less disposable, to become more
• 2:46
  Speaker 7: useful to the ruling order. What we all need to
• 2:49
  Speaker 7: be doing is rejecting disposability in all of its forms.
• 2:54
  Speaker 7: The point is not to beat the fascists at their
• 2:58
  Speaker 7: own game. It is not to lay a better claim
• 3:02
  Speaker 7: on their own territory by being fitter, more eugenic. In fact,
• 3:08
  Speaker 7: the more disgenic, the better, I think. Revolution is not
• 3:13
  Speaker 7: a contest between optimized and properly prepared bodies. That idea
• 3:19
  Speaker 7: is fascist in and of itself and erases the history
• 3:23
  Speaker 7: of left struggles around the world.
• 3:25
  Speaker 6: Okay, so also on that panel, before we unpack some
• 3:29
  Speaker 6: of that, was Deshaun Harrison, to her right. They're the
• 3:35
  Speaker 6: author of Belly of the Beast, The Politics of Anti-Fatness
• 3:39
  Speaker 6: as Anti-Blackness, They also made some comments that were making
• 3:44
  Speaker 6: the rounds.
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: Let's roll that.
• 3:45
  Speaker 8: The political deployment of GOP ones is fascistic, not because
• 3:49
  Speaker 8: individuals take them, but because the conditions under which they
• 3:52
  Speaker 8: become necessary are shaped by a world fixated on genociding
• 3:56
  Speaker 8: fat people. This is a structural critique that asks what
• 4:00
  Speaker 8: happens when the conditions produced by capitalism, by public health,
• 4:04
  Speaker 8: by the state apparatus, and by anti-black desire align around
• 4:08
  Speaker 8: a single bodily ideal that leaves little to no room
• 4:11
  Speaker 8: for divergence and punishes any body that does. Whereas earlier
• 4:17
  Speaker 8: diet drugs were often associated with vanity or addiction, GOP1s
• 4:21
  Speaker 8: are positioned as responsible medicine, promising relief rather than restraint.
• 4:26
  Speaker 8: But to understand why the deployment of GLP-1s is fascistic
• 4:29
  Speaker 8: requires turning to Frantz Fanon's account of black flesh under
• 4:32
  Speaker 8: colonial surveillance.
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  Speaker 5: So I saw one response saying, well, hold on.
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  Speaker 6: If GLP-1s are genocide of fat people, is McDonald's genociding
• 4:44
  Speaker 6: thin people?
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  Speaker 1: Clearly.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 6: The idea of genociding a population by having them lose weight,
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: I think, is not even... kind of worth engaging with.
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: So I think a lot of people had questions, what's
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: going on here? Why is this happening? What's going on?
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: And this wasn't it, by the way. It wasn't just
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: the fitness panel. There were clips that were emerging from
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: other panels.
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  Speaker 5: A lot of the panels were, yes, wildly out there.
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: And you're watching it and you're thinking, wait a minute,
• 5:17
  Speaker 6: but socialism is surging in the ballot box.
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: Majorities of normal people around the country.
• 5:25
  Speaker 6: Even in swing states like Michigan and Maine are voting
• 5:28
  Speaker 6: for people who are either socialist or socialist adjacent. And
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: there's just no world in which they would be doing
• 5:36
  Speaker 6: that if this is what.
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: It stood for.
• 5:39
  Speaker 6: So how is this possibly happening? So it is, I
• 5:42
  Speaker 6: think it's worth, so there's an argument, just ignore this stuff.
• 5:48
  Speaker 6: And it's not worth engaging. That is, to me, a
• 5:53
  Speaker 6: comical defense argument. something right like I acknowledge it's bad
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: just ignore it right no which you can.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: Do if it doesn't represent some level of significant strain.
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: Right and or have some funding behind it and this
• 6:10
  Speaker 6: does and so so who is what is this conference
• 6:13
  Speaker 6: so it's originally this conference was sponsored by the International
• 6:19
  Speaker 6: Socialist Organization which is a Trotskyist organization that.
• 6:26
  Speaker 5: Folded in 2019. It was... Cult is too strong of
• 6:33
  Speaker 5: a word. It's close.
• 6:37
  Speaker 6: It's as close... If you understand... Cult-ish. What a cult is, cult-ish.
• 6:44
  Speaker 6: It's kind of a creepy... It was kind of a
• 6:48
  Speaker 6: creepy organization. It had some impressive figures who served as
• 6:54
  Speaker 6: kind of The conference had.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: A lot of big names. It had Hassan, Angela Davis,
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Bill Ayers was there, a lot of prominent people.
• 7:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, but then you dig deeper down, you're like, anyway. So,
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  Speaker 6: ISO folded in 2019. Its members have splintered off into
• 7:12
  Speaker 6: a lot of different directions. Haymarket, which is a kind
• 7:17
  Speaker 6: of left-wing publisher, which flows out of that same tendency,
• 7:21
  Speaker 6: has taken over this space. convention and a lot of
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: the same figures are rolling through it. Now, we could
• 7:31
  Speaker 6: talk about the history of this kind of strain of leftism,
• 7:36
  Speaker 6: which is supported by and runs through basically the nonprofit
• 7:43
  Speaker 6: world propped up by philanthropies and universities.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: Like that is the... Yep.
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  Speaker 6: Kind of social economic structure that props this up.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: And is often given some quarter by corporate media outlets
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: that are looking to kind of, what is the best
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: way to put it, wash their problems.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 6: And I saw it described in an essay by a
• 8:07
  Speaker 6: communist writer yesterday as the compatible left, which is a
• 8:10
  Speaker 6: decent term. Compatible with capitalism, compatible with the ruling class
• 8:14
  Speaker 6: because what they say sounds radical. They go, all kinds
• 8:20
  Speaker 6: of radical buzzwords being thrown around and they're going to
• 8:22
  Speaker 6: abolish this and they're going to abolish that. And they're
• 8:24
  Speaker 6: constantly identifying kind of new forms of oppression. But what
• 8:28
  Speaker 6: they're going to do is just administer some type of
• 8:31
  Speaker 6: kind of nonprofit industrial complex over top of this new
• 8:35
  Speaker 6: oppression that they've identified rather than actually try to address
• 8:40
  Speaker 6: the oppression by crucially organizing a working class that has
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: its collective interest in overcoming their bosses. And then, for
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: lack of a better word, through some dictatorship of a proletariat. Basically,
• 8:57
  Speaker 6: the working class then takes power and dictates how the
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: economy is going to operate in its own interests. And
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: then within that, they can sort out whatever kind of
• 9:09
  Speaker 6: internal contradictions they have. But you have to resolve those
• 9:13
  Speaker 6: contradictions so that you can pull together the entire working
• 9:17
  Speaker 6: class to fight against the super rich and the capitalist-owning class. Like,
• 9:21
  Speaker 6: that's the Marxist idea.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: Which they, by the way, I'm sure they would say
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  Speaker 4: that's what they believe in. The question is that it's
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: not practical, or whether it's practical. They don't think they're...
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: I wonder.
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: They're so far... I guess... So far from that that.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: But they still think they're a threat to the capitalist order.
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: I think most of them probably see themselves as a
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: threat to capitalist imperialism, right? They just believe that they're
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: kind of identitarian... Marxism is a threat. But that's what's so, like,
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: they really see themselves psychologically as disruptors.
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: What they call that on the left is idealism.
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  Speaker 6: In other words, things like what you think, which is
• 9:58
  Speaker 6: separate from materialism, which you're that matter and exist in
• 10:01
  Speaker 6: the real world. So it really doesn't matter what Deshaun
• 10:08
  Speaker 6: or Beatrice think about what their role is. I 100%
• 10:14
  Speaker 6: believe they are completely earnest in all of their politics.
• 10:17
  Speaker 6: What is more important is the material and social conditions
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: that allow, have allowed this to thrive for now, what,
• 10:25
  Speaker 6: 80 years? Going further than that, going back to, but let's,
• 10:32
  Speaker 6: probably smarter to start after World War II. And after
• 10:35
  Speaker 6: World War II, the CIA in particular, like recognized, and
• 10:40
  Speaker 6: not just the CIA, but the Ford Foundation and all
• 10:42
  Speaker 6: of its kind of ancillary organizations kind of class allies,
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: recognized that communism, global communism, socialism was very appealing to
• 10:57
  Speaker 6: people because it was raising their living standards. And also communists,
• 11:02
  Speaker 6: people would forget this, communists throughout the world during World
• 11:07
  Speaker 6: War II.
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: Fought the fascists. And so they were surging after World
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: War II.
• 11:15
  Speaker 6: In Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh fought the, uh, you know,
• 11:19
  Speaker 6: fought against the Japanese and Chinese nationalists and, um, and, and,
• 11:25
  Speaker 6: and fought for the country's independence in Korea. Uh, the
• 11:29
  Speaker 6: socialists and communists fought against the fascists in France, the
• 11:35
  Speaker 6: communists and the socialists in Spain.
• 11:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: Well, Spain is a little separate, but yes.
• 11:41
  Speaker 6: Um, what, you know, in, and as a result, the,
• 11:45
  Speaker 6: socialists and communists come out of, in Greece and Albania
• 11:49
  Speaker 6: and France, they come out with a moral authority. In Italy,
• 11:56
  Speaker 6: for instance, they almost won the 1948 elections.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: CIA didn't help the communists in that one.
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: No, the CIA killed them. Allied with the mafia to
• 12:04
  Speaker 6: kill a bunch of communists.
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: Stuff and ballots. Stuff and ballots in 1948.
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: But the reason the communists were popular in Italy in
• 12:10
  Speaker 6: 1948 is because they had fought.
• 12:13
  Speaker 5: Against the fascists.
• 12:14
  Speaker 6: Whereas the liberals... had been collaborators with the Nazis. And
• 12:19
  Speaker 6: so they were discredited. And the CIA, the Ford Foundation,
• 12:23
  Speaker 6: and others recognized that opposing communism from the right just
• 12:27
  Speaker 6: on kind of Christian Western values wasn't going to be enough.
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: You needed a left-wing argument that said capitalism is bad
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: and communism is bad.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: We need a third camp.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: You need a Gloria Steinem to go organize conferences in Europe.
• 12:43
  Speaker 6: For young liberals. They basically called it third campism. A
• 12:46
  Speaker 6: lot of Trotskyists who, whether they were useful idiots for
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: this or not, wind up in that position where they're
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: criticizing both communism and capitalism. But they're not a threat
• 13:01
  Speaker 6: to capitalism, so it doesn't matter that they criticize capitalism.
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: And so the nonprofit industrial complex, which at the time
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: included a lot of the CIA money, funds this.
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: To undermine global communism.
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: Global communism doesn't exist anymore, but the idea of the
• 13:21
  Speaker 6: working class uniting in order to fight against the billionaire
• 13:26
  Speaker 6: class is still a threat.
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: And so the.
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: CIA, we don't know how much they're involved with it anymore,
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: doesn't matter. The foundation world, which flowed directly.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: Out of that It's a construct of it. Yeah, is
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: still doing it.
• 13:46
  Speaker 6: The foundation world is out there funding all of this stuff.
• 13:50
  Speaker 6: A lot of the people at the foundations certainly believe
• 13:54
  Speaker 6: that they're doing a good thing. And I remember when
• 13:57
  Speaker 6: I first learned that foundations were the major funders of
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: so much left-wing organizing and left-wing think tanks and left-wing work.
• 14:09
  Speaker 6: Remember thinking, ah, how the Carnegies of the world, they
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: must be so bitter about that. They passed the money
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: down and then their kids became these left-wingers who were
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: then trying to undo all the things that the Carnegies
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: stood for, for instance.
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: And then as you're in it a little longer, you're like, oh.
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: They're not actually fighting against their own class interests. They
• 14:34
  Speaker 6: are in a very sophisticated way. propping up their own
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: class interests by creating this kind of valve. And so
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: for the last 80 or so years, this nonprofit industrial
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: complex university academic left has continued to grow and continued
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: to gain people, money, funding, strength, you know, publishing houses, podcasts,
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: taking over in like massive universities. Um, Meanwhile, union density
• 15:08
  Speaker 6: has continued to collapse. And the threat that the left
• 15:11
  Speaker 6: poses to the ruling class has continued to decline. And
• 15:18
  Speaker 6: the fact that both of these things are happening at
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: the same time, I don't think is a complete and
• 15:23
  Speaker 6: total coincidence. I think there's also this little piece of
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: it inside academia where in order to get a PhD,
• 15:31
  Speaker 6: you have to write something unique, as you should, in
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: kind of these social studies, you'd have to identify some
• 15:39
  Speaker 6: new kind of oppression and then become the authority on
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: that oppression. And so you start producing all of these
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: more and more obscure layers of oppression, which then further
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: divide people. And then you layer on top of it, well,
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: we've got the idea of intersectionality. That's our attempt to
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: bridge it. But it ends up obviously not working.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: But I wonder that it's even worse than that in
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: the sense so many people who are doing these more
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: and more or finding these more and more obscure oppressions. Actually,
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: I think there's something sincere in it. Like a lot
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: of people my age and younger have been alienated and isolated.
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's often true.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: And not, you know, not without the help of the
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: capitalist system that we live in. Like Musa al-Gharbi has
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: a great book on this and you've talked about this
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: before as well. Like it is an alienating, it has
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: a psychologically alienating effect on people. And the balm, I
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: think for some folks who get ensconced in academia is
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: finding purpose through identity. And that's where I think it's,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: these are like pretty sincerely held beliefs for many of
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: these people who do see themselves as threats to the
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: capitalist system and disruptors to capitalist imperialism, because that's their
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: source of identity. Like as our communities have been hollowed
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: out and loneliness is at record highs, It's a false
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: hope to find purpose in identitarian politics. And it also
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: totally does undermine the genuine Marxist left.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: And it's a feature of that politics that it undermines.
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: Class solidarity.
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: And it teaches people that if they don't know all
• 17:26
  Speaker 6: of this language and if they watch something like that,
• 17:30
  Speaker 6: it sounds completely insane to me.
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: They're like, then you're a reactionary right winger. Um, and
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: then they'll do this.
• 17:39
  Speaker 6: Oftentimes they'll have this little parlor trick where they'll say, no, no,
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: this is like, this is some obviously true things. Like,
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: do we kind of fetishize, um, kind of how people look?
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: Sure.
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: Like our right is the right wing, like taking over.
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: In some ways, like this manosphere physical fitness stuff.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they're doing that.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: Is Pete Hegseth using fitness as a way to whitewash
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: the Pentagon's Iran war problems?
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he is. Yeah.
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: But that doesn't mean that fitness is a measure of
• 18:19
  Speaker 6: relative disposability to the ruling class.
• 18:22
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: And also, what's interesting, so.
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: This goes to your question about whether Beatrice sees herself
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: as actually a threat to the ruling class, her line there,
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: fitness is a measure of disposability to the ruling class,
• 18:40
  Speaker 6: suggests that the ruling class will always be there. Because
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: if you envision a world in which people have taken control,
• 18:51
  Speaker 6: let's get socialism, democratic socialism, communism, whatever they want.
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: If you envision that world, then your fitness.
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: Is a relative measure of your ability to contribute to
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: this collective society. But in her understanding of the world,
• 19:12
  Speaker 6: there can only ever be a ruling class. There cannot
• 19:16
  Speaker 6: be victory for people. So whether she believes it or not, unconsciously,
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: just in that one line, she clearly doesn't.
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: Now, let's make fun of this Stu Smith guy for
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: a second.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: He was clipping all of these moments. God bless you, Stu.
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: He's a Manhattan Institute. He's a right-wing think tank. He
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: hit the jackpot. Got to give it to him there.
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: But when he came across some reasonable points, like his
• 19:45
  Speaker 6: own brain falls out of his skull. This this one's
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: a fun one let's play this is here's hasan piker
• 19:51
  Speaker 6: um let's roll d5.
• 19:54
  Speaker 9: One question i have is yeah what are you seeing
• 19:56
  Speaker 9: in terms of the broader movements that is inspiring you
• 19:59
  Speaker 9: that points the way forward based on your location you're
• 20:02
  Speaker 9: like i like this energy i like this is something
• 20:04
  Speaker 9: we need to keep doing.
• 20:06
  Speaker 10: Yeah i would say uh Tennis union organizers are doing
• 20:11
  Speaker 10: phenomenal work. Not only in blue districts, not only in
• 20:18
  Speaker 10: deep blue districts, but deep red in the South as well.
• 20:22
  Speaker 10: And that's actually really important.
• 20:26
  Speaker 11: That's one.
• 20:28
  Speaker 10: The work against data centers is another one as well.
• 20:34
  Speaker 10: And then the other one is mass surveillance, axing cameras
• 20:40
  Speaker 10: and flock cameras as well. So these are issues that
• 20:44
  Speaker 10: cross party lines. These are issues that are frustrating for
• 20:50
  Speaker 10: Americans of all different backgrounds, all different demographics. And these
• 20:54
  Speaker 10: are issues where, predictably, the establishment of either party is...
• 21:00
  Speaker 10: These are issues that neither establishment of either party is.
• 21:06
  Speaker 10: Offering any reasonable solutions on. So it's a real opportunity
• 21:11
  Speaker 10: for us to once again show that we're real, that
• 21:14
  Speaker 10: we're here, that we're here to stay, and that we
• 21:17
  Speaker 10: want to make these changes. We're not simply just demanding them,
• 21:19
  Speaker 10: but we will also elect people who will make these
• 21:22
  Speaker 10: necessary changes as well.
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: So here Hassan says he wants to organize to bring
• 21:27
  Speaker 6: the rent down. Against data centers and against flock surveillance.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a pretty strong argument.
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: Which everybody is basically for.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Manhattan Institute has been going pedal to the metal for flock.
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: Yes, right.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: So it's not really a surprise.
• 21:40
  Speaker 6: So Stu Smith sees that and says, the Singham network
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: has fingerprints in both organizing spaces, data centers and flock,
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: which makes me think some of the recent outrage around
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: these older technologies may be getting artificially amplified. So he
• 21:53
  Speaker 6: sees that and immediately he thinks... This is Roy Singham,
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: a rich guy who funds some left-wing projects that he,
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: like Roy Singham, is puppeteering this public backlash against data
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: centers and flock, which is like, go ahead and think
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: that if you want. That is completely absurd. Also, guys,
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: Sam Piker makes his money in the capitalist world from
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: his show.
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: Sure does.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: Lives in his mansion.
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: He does not take money from Roy Singham. He's not
• 22:25
  Speaker 6: taking money from any foundations. he's just, as a matter
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: of fact, not. Like, he went on the Cuba trip
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: with me.
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: But that did have Singham funding via Code Pink, right?
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: But we paid for it.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: Right, but the organizers, Code Pink, has Singham funding.
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and he'll interview people that are associated with these organizations.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: And he is talking about things that his audience wants
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: to hear about. Oh, of course.
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: If you really think that data centers and flock and
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: rent being... too high are things that like the chinese
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: are are making us like think then you're not you're
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: going to miss the reality that's gonna punch you right
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: in the face like you're gonna you're gonna miss it
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: just in the same way that when the democrats saw
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: the tea party coming they were like oh this is
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: the coke brothers yes and if we can just so
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: well if we can just go after the coke brothers
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: it's astroturf and it's astroturfed it's not real so well
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: said And yes, is there some funding from the Kochs
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: involved in it?
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: Of course.
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: But there's also real anger. And they missed it because
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: of their refusal to engage with it.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: And they tried to do the same thing with Bernie.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: It's all Russia-funded.
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: Right, yes, Russian bots or whatever. And look, the Russian
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: bots are on a roll, if that's the case.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: Hell of a decade for the Russian bots, finally, because
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: we teased it. This is, I think, worth showing. This
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: is Mamdani announcing a new office that has been created.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: It is what socialists can do in the real world.
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: What actual democratic socialists are doing in office, yes. Let's
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: take a look. Do you remember when you said this?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Because whether you are organizing a museum or a bar,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: we have your backs.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Of course I do.
• 24:08
  Speaker 11: And today we're announcing the office of worker power. This
• 24:15
  Speaker 11: is a first of its kind in the country office
• 24:18
  Speaker 11: that we are setting up to help workers organize. Whether
• 24:21
  Speaker 11: you are working in a hotel, whether you are working
• 24:23
  Speaker 11: in a hospital, whether you are working as a barista,
• 24:26
  Speaker 11: you are a worker. And as a worker, you should
• 24:30
  Speaker 11: have protections.
• 24:31
  Speaker 8: We know that when workers try to organize, there's all
• 24:33
  Speaker 8: kinds of tactics that are used against them.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: And we will make sure that when workers are intimidated,
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: that they know that they don't stand alone.
• 24:43
  Speaker 12: I work for the Jewel Hotel. I've been working for
• 24:44
  Speaker 12: the Jewel Hotel for 16 years. I'll be stuck there
• 24:47
  Speaker 12: working 60 hours a week easily. And I couldn't say
• 24:50
  Speaker 12: no because they'll tell me, Lord, you abandoned your job.
• 24:52
  Speaker 12: We're just going to replace you.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: What would the ideal outcome be for a worker who
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: comes back?
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: To the office?
• 24:57
  Speaker 11: To me, it is that a worker leaves the office
• 25:00
  Speaker 11: with a better understanding of the rights they already have
• 25:03
  Speaker 11: and the ways in which that they can win the
• 25:04
  Speaker 11: rights that they deserve.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: And that's the key difference. The DSA is backed by people, workers.
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: Mamdani is backed by voters.
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: What you saw at that quote unquote socialism conference is
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: backed by philanthropies and universities without a mass backing from workers.
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: That is the difference. So one of them is a
• 25:27
  Speaker 6: mass movement. The other is a conference.
• 25:31
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: The U.S.
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: Is expanding its attacks on what they call drug smuggling
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: and drug operations in the Pacific and in the Caribbean.
• 25:43
  Speaker 6: We can put this element up on the screen. Striking
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: what they said was a ship that was used to
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: kind of refuel drug boats.
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: Kind of a.
• 25:56
  Speaker 6: Significant escalation, even as we reach the one-year mark of
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: Pete Hegs' war on drug boats in the Caribbean, and
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: the price of drugs and availability of drugs has not budged,
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: although more than 200 people have been killed and disappeared.
• 26:14
  Speaker 6: A new investigation called Killing at Sea is out now
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: on Al Jazeera English. Josh Rushing, who is one of
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: the lead investigators in that report, is joining us now
• 26:23
  Speaker 6: to discuss this. Highly recommend everybody check this out. We'll
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: play a clip at the end of this interview for people.
• 26:32
  Speaker 6: But first of all, thank you for coming by the studio.
• 26:34
  Speaker 6: Really appreciate it.
• 26:36
  Speaker 13: Thanks for having me, Ryan and Emily. I really appreciate
• 26:37
  Speaker 13: it as well. And also, it's not just out on
• 26:39
  Speaker 13: Out of Zero. It's on YouTube, so everyone can see
• 26:41
  Speaker 13: it for free anytime.
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: Yes. Go pause this and go watch it.
• 26:45
  Speaker 8: Seriously.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: Very worth watching.
• 26:47
  Speaker 6: So I wanted to start with a couple of things
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: that this has been done sort of in the open.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: Except for this a couple of the strikes that dropside
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: has has been covering that apparently involved some Secret CIA program,
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: which is very weird and we maybe get into that later.
• 27:05
  Speaker 6: But most of this has been done out in the
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: open attacks on these fishing boats videos posted on online
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: bragging about the crimes publicly the first strike which did
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: garner some significant attention because of there were two survivors
• 27:25
  Speaker 6: of it who were then killed by the Americans in.
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: What is, by definition, a war crime.
• 27:34
  Speaker 6: The rules around shipwrecked sailors have been very clear in
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: war for hundreds of years, and apparently even in a
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: war college, it's a for instance.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: Like, you shall not do these things.
• 27:47
  Speaker 6: For instance, if there are sailors who are shipwrecked clinging
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: to clinging to their shipwreck device, you have to at.
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: Least try to save them. Instead, we killed them. Tell
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: us about the second time that the U.S.
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: Launched a strike on a vessel, because I think that
• 28:09
  Speaker 6: what they did with the survivors here is really revealing
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: about this entire project.
• 28:13
  Speaker 13: You touched on a number of things that I'd love
• 28:15
  Speaker 13: to kind of go back on.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: That these were done in the open.
• 28:19
  Speaker 13: One of the things is, so for Operation Southern Spirit,
• 28:22
  Speaker 13: which ended in early August and they transitioned to Joint
• 28:25
  Speaker 13: Task Force Western Hemisphere, which is going to be a
• 28:27
  Speaker 13: much larger version of what we've witnessed that will include
• 28:31
  Speaker 13: land sea and airstrikes. a definite military expansion into Latin
• 28:36
  Speaker 13: America and Central America. That's what the Operation Southern Sphere
• 28:40
  Speaker 13: was really an entree to. And I think that's really important.
• 28:42
  Speaker 13: That's where this narrative and that's where the scrutiny needs
• 28:45
  Speaker 13: to go.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: So that's what started last September. September 2nd, 2025.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Was Operation Southern Sphere.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: Southern Sphere.
• 28:50
  Speaker 13: We just passed the one-year anniversary. It was the first
• 28:52
  Speaker 13: strike where it was a double tap.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: Caribbean.
• 28:55
  Speaker 13: And it was in the Caribbean. Now, to say they're
• 28:58
  Speaker 13: done now in the open, what's kind of interesting is
• 29:00
  Speaker 13: it's almost... If it is a crime, it's almost a
• 29:03
  Speaker 13: perfect crime because it is done over the horizon. No
• 29:06
  Speaker 13: one can really prove that their loved one died in
• 29:09
  Speaker 13: one of these strikes. All they know is dad or
• 29:12
  Speaker 13: their husband left and didn't come back, which sometimes happens
• 29:15
  Speaker 13: with fishermen. But they didn't come back on the same
• 29:18
  Speaker 13: day that the U.S.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Announces there's a strike. Now, the U.S.
• 29:21
  Speaker 13: Announced, I think, 61 strikes and killing 221 people in
• 29:24
  Speaker 13: that time period up to the first week of August,
• 29:26
  Speaker 13: as now expanded to, I think, we're over 225 people.
• 29:30
  Speaker 13: maybe more than that now that we're in the second
• 29:33
  Speaker 13: phase of this. But in that first phase, the number's
• 29:35
  Speaker 13: at 221. But there's an important caveat. It's 221 people
• 29:39
  Speaker 13: and 61 strikes that the U.S. government has told us about.
• 29:43
  Speaker 13: The only reason we even know this is happening is
• 29:46
  Speaker 13: that the U.S. government has posted these videos.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: They're bragging about it.
• 29:50
  Speaker 13: They're often bragging and boasting about it. And what's insane
• 29:53
  Speaker 13: about it is, so they say that these are, it's
• 29:55
  Speaker 13: a war, that these are enemy combatants. And so what
• 29:58
  Speaker 13: We wanted to see at fault lines, who are these
• 30:00
  Speaker 13: enemy combatants? What's the other side of this war like?
• 30:03
  Speaker 13: So we went down to meet them. They have no
• 30:05
  Speaker 13: idea that they're involved in a war in the U.S.
• 30:07
  Speaker 13: They have no idea that they're enemy combatants. And particularly those,
• 30:12
  Speaker 13: when you bring up the first strike on 9-2, they
• 30:14
  Speaker 13: would have no idea why. They wouldn't even know why
• 30:17
  Speaker 13: the boat blew up. And so there is video of that.
• 30:21
  Speaker 13: Trump posted it on social, his true social, right? There's
• 30:25
  Speaker 13: a second video, though. that they haven't allowed anyone to
• 30:28
  Speaker 13: see except for select Congress members that shows the second strike.
• 30:31
  Speaker 13: And the way it's been described is 45 minutes later,
• 30:35
  Speaker 13: two guys still clinging to wreckage in the water and
• 30:38
  Speaker 13: waving to the aircraft above because they probably had no
• 30:40
  Speaker 13: idea that that aircraft fired on them. They think it
• 30:43
  Speaker 13: might be there to save them. And then they get
• 30:46
  Speaker 13: killed by the same aircraft. Now, you're right about what
• 30:50
  Speaker 13: they teach at the War College. I'm a former Marine officer.
• 30:52
  Speaker 13: And it's not just on the water. When someone's out
• 30:55
  Speaker 13: of the fight, you can't execute them. You take them
• 30:58
  Speaker 13: as a POW. You even have to render aid to them,
• 31:01
  Speaker 13: medical aid. It's just the laws of war. And there
• 31:04
  Speaker 13: are several different regimes, legal regimes that you could apply
• 31:08
  Speaker 13: to this. International humanitarian law, human rights law, maritime law,
• 31:13
  Speaker 13: the laws of war, our own domestic law. And all
• 31:17
  Speaker 13: of those, there is no compelling argument that this is
• 31:19
  Speaker 13: anything other than murder or a war crime or both.
• 31:24
  Speaker 13: To go to the second strike, it was the Carranza family,
• 31:28
  Speaker 13: who we go down and interviewed there in Santa Marta, Colombia,
• 31:32
  Speaker 13: that happened last September. One of the things that's interesting
• 31:34
  Speaker 13: about it is, as a journalist, I think as long
• 31:40
  Speaker 13: as it's just numbers in the U.S., no one's really
• 31:43
  Speaker 13: paying attention to this. So you always want to put
• 31:46
  Speaker 13: a face to numbers, right? so hard to do in
• 31:49
  Speaker 13: this case. One, to confirm that this person was actually
• 31:52
  Speaker 13: lost in a strike and not their boat just sunk
• 31:55
  Speaker 13: or whatever, right? But two, to find a family willing
• 31:59
  Speaker 13: to talk. They're scared of the Trump administration. They're scared
• 32:02
  Speaker 13: of their own administration, which are all shifting rapidly, right?
• 32:06
  Speaker 13: And they're often maybe scared of narcos if narcos are involved.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: So it was really difficult.
• 32:11
  Speaker 13: We worked with journalists on the ground for months in
• 32:14
  Speaker 13: six different countries to try to find families. And there's
• 32:17
  Speaker 13: an excellent consortium of investigative journalists across Latin America that
• 32:22
  Speaker 13: I would point people to, lclip.org. They do excellent work
• 32:28
  Speaker 13: in Latin America. They were the first to really to
• 32:30
  Speaker 13: identify some survivors. I think they started with 13 and
• 32:32
  Speaker 13: might be up to 21 now. Air Wars, who we
• 32:35
  Speaker 13: also worked with, has been tracking survivors, but through lclip mostly.
• 32:39
  Speaker 13: So a big shout out to lclip for being able
• 32:42
  Speaker 13: to identify survivors. But one of the interesting things about
• 32:45
  Speaker 13: this particular family, the Carranza family that was in the
• 32:48
  Speaker 13: second strike that we highlight in the film, is that
• 32:50
  Speaker 13: they're one of the few families to actually pursue legal recourse.
• 32:53
  Speaker 13: So they have an attorney in the U.S. that has
• 32:56
  Speaker 13: filed a claim in the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.
• 33:00
  Speaker 13: And they're trying to pursue some sense of justice for
• 33:03
  Speaker 13: their lost family member. Although I will say, while Catherine,
• 33:08
  Speaker 13: who is the mother of the children, they weren't together
• 33:11
  Speaker 13: at the time that Alejandro Carranza died. was killed, um,
• 33:16
  Speaker 13: is pursuing this, which means she's accepted his fate. It's
• 33:21
  Speaker 13: not true of his children. Like his youngest son, who's
• 33:24
  Speaker 13: probably between eight and 10 told me that his dad's
• 33:27
  Speaker 13: a really strong swimmer and that he comes to him
• 33:29
  Speaker 13: in his dreams. And he'll tell his sisters, his sister
• 33:32
  Speaker 13: told us that, uh, he'll say, I'm going to go
• 33:34
  Speaker 13: walk around town so I can see if dad's out there,
• 33:35
  Speaker 13: if I can run into dad. So they haven't even, it's, it's,
• 33:40
  Speaker 13: I've been a journalist for 21 years at Al Jazeera,
• 33:42
  Speaker 13: and I've often done the disappeared as opposed to the killed.
• 33:46
  Speaker 13: And it's a fate worse than death for the family
• 33:48
  Speaker 13: because there is no closure and there's always wondering. And
• 33:52
  Speaker 13: that's basically what we're rendering in the videos that you
• 33:54
  Speaker 13: talked about. That young boy, his mom was keeping it
• 33:58
  Speaker 13: from him, what happened to his dad or what they
• 34:00
  Speaker 13: thought might have happened to his dad at that point.
• 34:02
  Speaker 13: Other kids at school bring the video to him and say, oh,
• 34:04
  Speaker 13: your dad's a drug runner and Trump killed him and
• 34:07
  Speaker 13: show him the video, which traumatized them. And the dehumanization
• 34:11
  Speaker 13: involved when they post these videos as if they're just
• 34:14
  Speaker 13: video games and there isn't some kid on the other
• 34:17
  Speaker 13: side of that video watching it saying, is that my dad?
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: Because it was the same thing as St. Lucia too.
• 34:21
  Speaker 13: They watched that video over and over and over again.
• 34:23
  Speaker 13: Is there a chance he survived? Is that dad?
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: It's haunting to them.
• 34:28
  Speaker 13: And yet for these guys, except Trump, they act like
• 34:30
  Speaker 13: it's a video game that they won and they're moving
• 34:33
  Speaker 13: on to the next level.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: When they're operating on the premise that it can be
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: kind of a funny troll because it is almost certain
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: that these fishermen were running away. drugs and acting as
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: enemy combatants, literally enemy combatants against the United States. Now
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: we had a problem with fentanyl. It is highly unlikely that,
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: and fentanyl is down, but it's highly unlikely that any
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: of these boats were trafficking fentanyl. You can tell us
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: more because you're on the ground. What is the likelihood
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: that there was any, like set the extrajudicial stuff aside
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: is obviously egregious and ridiculous, but let's even just take
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: the Trump administration's point that these are drug runners that
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: are operating as enemies against the homeland. What evidence did
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: you uncover that there's any truth to that?
• 35:18
  Speaker 13: So I would love to discuss theoretically if these were
• 35:21
  Speaker 13: drug runners. Let's talk about the legality of that. But first,
• 35:25
  Speaker 13: I want to lay out that the Carranza family and
• 35:27
  Speaker 13: the families that we found in St. Lucia, the Joseph
• 35:29
  Speaker 13: family and the William family of Nafi Williams and Ricky Joseph,
• 35:32
  Speaker 13: who were on the boat that was blown up there,
• 35:36
  Speaker 13: insist that they had nothing to do with drugs.
• 35:38
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 35:39
  Speaker 13: Insist that they didn't, and I want to make clear
• 35:42
  Speaker 13: that we're not implying that they did. There has been
• 35:44
  Speaker 13: no evidence to say that they did. Let's say they did, though.
• 35:48
  Speaker 13: These families that I found, I found Lucia, who's Ricky
• 35:51
  Speaker 13: Joseph's partner. They have four children.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: When I found her in St.
• 35:54
  Speaker 13: Lucia, there was no electricity in the house because she
• 35:56
  Speaker 13: couldn't afford it. There was very little food for the
• 35:59
  Speaker 13: four kids. We spent the first day getting electricity, getting
• 36:01
  Speaker 13: food in the house before we even sat down to
• 36:03
  Speaker 13: really talk about what's going on.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Her own government hasn't checked on her.
• 36:06
  Speaker 13: It's been five months since Ricky, she says, made about
• 36:10
  Speaker 13: $ 2, 000 a year as a fisherman. $ 2, 000 a year to survive, right?
• 36:14
  Speaker 13: They're barely getting by when he was working, and now
• 36:18
  Speaker 13: they're not.
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: Right, if he was some big-time drug runner, you'd think
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: they'd have food and electricity.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: If he was a drug runner, they wouldn't be living
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: like this, right?
• 36:26
  Speaker 13: Or even if he was and they were living like this,
• 36:28
  Speaker 13: how far down the total hole do you think he
• 36:31
  Speaker 13: is at the cartel? In the Carranza family, Catherine is
• 36:34
  Speaker 13: now having to like cook meals and try to sell
• 36:37
  Speaker 13: them as lunches on the street and to people in
• 36:39
  Speaker 13: the neighborhood so that she can survive. The oldest daughter
• 36:42
  Speaker 13: got a scholarship to college. It's an online college. They
• 36:45
  Speaker 13: can't afford a laptop for her to go. So she's
• 36:47
  Speaker 13: helping mom with the meals right now. If they were
• 36:50
  Speaker 13: really part of a Colombian drug cartel, how far down
• 36:53
  Speaker 13: do you think they are that that's how they're living, right?
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: And isn't that like the extent of the evidence is
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: that maybe there's some small amounts of cocaine on some
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: of these boats?
• 37:00
  Speaker 8: Maybe, maybe.
• 37:01
  Speaker 13: Okay, so we don't know the legal criteria to strike
• 37:04
  Speaker 13: a vote because it's in a classified Justice Department document,
• 37:08
  Speaker 13: an OLC decision, that only select members of Congress can see.
• 37:11
  Speaker 13: And when they see it, they can't take a lawyer.
• 37:13
  Speaker 13: They can't take their national security expert. Only the congressperson
• 37:17
  Speaker 13: can see it, right?
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: And didn't the lawyers refuse to even go down to
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: the Hill to defend it? That's what I had heard.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 37:23
  Speaker 13: But here's what we do know that's in there. So
• 37:25
  Speaker 13: in the OLC, it will have the legal justification and
• 37:28
  Speaker 13: the criteria to strike a boat. Senator Kaine and Senator
• 37:31
  Speaker 13: Paul found an interesting way to talk about it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: They've both seen the document.
• 37:35
  Speaker 13: They can't say what they've seen because it's classified, but
• 37:37
  Speaker 13: they can say what wasn't there. And one of the
• 37:40
  Speaker 13: things they both brought up that isn't in the criteria
• 37:42
  Speaker 13: is are there drugs on the boat? There doesn't have
• 37:47
  Speaker 13: to be drugs on the boat for this strike. legally
• 37:50
  Speaker 13: from the U.S.
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: Not that they would have anyone even verify. Their legal claim.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: Unless they have like human intelligence on the boat or
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: around the boat.
• 37:57
  Speaker 13: Perhaps they could track it, satellites, perhaps they could track
• 38:00
  Speaker 13: it by drones, but it doesn't matter because they don't
• 38:02
  Speaker 13: need drugs on the boat to blow them up according
• 38:04
  Speaker 13: to their own Justice Department.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Which is why trials matter.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Which blows your mind, right?
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 13: But let's talk about, this is really about fentanyl, right?
• 38:11
  Speaker 13: So I go to St. Lucia and I ask them, well,
• 38:13
  Speaker 13: this is a war against fentanyl. What do you think
• 38:14
  Speaker 13: about fentanyl? And I had more than a handful of
• 38:17
  Speaker 13: people tell me, what is fentanyl? They've never heard of
• 38:19
  Speaker 13: fentanyl there. They don't know what it is. And yet
• 38:22
  Speaker 13: they're caught up in a war over it. So, okay,
• 38:24
  Speaker 13: it's not about fentanyl because fentanyl doesn't actually come out
• 38:26
  Speaker 13: of Colombia and Venezuela, right? It's made in the U.S.
• 38:29
  Speaker 13: It comes from China. It comes across the land border
• 38:31
  Speaker 13: from Mexico. But it doesn't come from down there. So
• 38:33
  Speaker 13: it's not about that. So, okay, let's just say broadly.
• 38:36
  Speaker 13: It's about stopping drugs.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: In December, the U.S.
• 38:39
  Speaker 13: Killed more than 20 people with multiple strikes in the
• 38:41
  Speaker 13: water in the same month. That President Trump pardons Juan
• 38:44
  Speaker 13: Orlando Hernandez, the former president of Honduras, who's convicted by
• 38:47
  Speaker 13: a jury of Americans of trafficking four to five hundred
• 38:51
  Speaker 13: tons of cocaine into the U.S. and saying we're going
• 38:55
  Speaker 13: to shove these drugs right up the noses of the gringos.
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: This is on tape, right?
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: So people don't miss that. What did Juan Orlando Hernandez
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: say on tape?
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: We're going to shove these drugs right up the noses
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: of the gringos.
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: And where is he now?
• 39:09
  Speaker 13: Fully pardoned and back in Honduras. He was given a
• 39:12
  Speaker 13: 45-year sentence. He was convicted guilty by an American jury.
• 39:16
  Speaker 13: In the same month that we killed 20 of these
• 39:18
  Speaker 13: poor people riding around on little boats, right, we let
• 39:21
  Speaker 13: him go. So if you're really serious about stopping drugs,
• 39:24
  Speaker 13: what's the question there?
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: Now, Rubio says— And Maduro.
• 39:31
  Speaker 13: Isn't facing any capital charges. No death penalty is on
• 39:35
  Speaker 13: the line for Maduro. Why is it on the line
• 39:36
  Speaker 13: for these guys on the boats? Even if they were, right?
• 39:40
  Speaker 13: Shipping drugs. And so it's like you can punch hole
• 39:43
  Speaker 13: after hole in the argument to show that this is
• 39:46
  Speaker 13: not about drugs in the United States.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: Marco Rubio says... Drugs with.
• 39:50
  Speaker 13: Ventolin in it coming to our shores is an exigent
• 39:52
  Speaker 13: threat to the country, and we can take them out.
• 39:54
  Speaker 13: Coming to our shores is a stretch. These boats are
• 39:58
  Speaker 13: designed to go 50 to 100 miles. Ricky Joseph, Nafi Williams,
• 40:02
  Speaker 13: their boat was blown up 1,500 miles away from the U.S.
• 40:06
  Speaker 13: It's not coming to our shores in these boats.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, they're a continent away.
• 40:11
  Speaker 13: We're blowing up boats and acting as if they could
• 40:14
  Speaker 13: have landed in Miami tomorrow.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: And that is not a fact.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: So.
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: After they got a lot of heat for killing the
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: shipwrecked sailors, there was another strike where there were survivors.
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: Tell us what happened after that strike. Now that the
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: lawyers are involved saying, okay, this could have been a
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: criminal act on top of a criminal act.
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: So what do they do this time? Okay.
• 40:38
  Speaker 13: So the survivors are a really interesting part of understanding
• 40:41
  Speaker 13: the legality of this. I know of at least three
• 40:44
  Speaker 13: strikes where there have been survivors. And one of them,
• 40:47
  Speaker 13: there were two survivors. Well, OK, one of those survivor from,
• 40:50
  Speaker 13: I believe, Colombia, who has been in a intensive care
• 40:54
  Speaker 13: unit in Costa Rica since it happened and hasn't spoken
• 40:57
  Speaker 13: to anyone. And I don't think he can speak. And
• 40:58
  Speaker 13: I've heard he probably won't because the situation is dire.
• 41:02
  Speaker 13: Two others, one was returned to Colombia and one was
• 41:04
  Speaker 13: returned to Ecuador. And we've been in touch with some
• 41:06
  Speaker 13: of those families and there's no way they're going to
• 41:08
  Speaker 13: talk to us. And they've gone off the radar. The
• 41:10
  Speaker 13: family says they haven't.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Heard from him anymore.
• 41:12
  Speaker 13: But here's the interesting thing. How do they get back
• 41:14
  Speaker 13: to their homes in Colombia and Ecuador? Well, after the strikes,
• 41:17
  Speaker 13: we repatriated them to their country. Okay, so these guys
• 41:19
  Speaker 13: are such a threat to the U.S., these terrorists, that
• 41:23
  Speaker 13: we can kill them on sight unless they happen to
• 41:25
  Speaker 13: survive that, and then we take them home with no charges.
• 41:28
  Speaker 13: They're not POWs in the war. Why wouldn't they be
• 41:31
  Speaker 13: POWs in this war if it's a war? Because it's
• 41:33
  Speaker 13: not a war.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 41:35
  Speaker 13: And so the survivors show you kind of a whole nother.
• 41:38
  Speaker 13: So then what they did was we can't pick up
• 41:41
  Speaker 13: survivors in the water because it exposes.
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: Like this whole thing.
• 41:44
  Speaker 13: So they had a boat go down in the Pacific
• 41:46
  Speaker 13: off of Central America. There were like nine or 10
• 41:49
  Speaker 13: survivors in the water.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: So the U.S.
• 41:51
  Speaker 13: Calls a rescue plane from the Coast Guard. Where do
• 41:54
  Speaker 13: you think they called that plane from?
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Utah.
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: Well, it's got to be San Diego, right?
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: Utah. Oh, Utah.
• 42:00
  Speaker 13: Air Wars has a great report on this that shows
• 42:02
  Speaker 13: the plane circling for hours before it actually heads down
• 42:05
  Speaker 13: to El Salvador. It has to have a crew rest
• 42:08
  Speaker 13: before it goes out to look on the water. So
• 42:10
  Speaker 13: you have eight guys in the open seas waiting for rescue.
• 42:14
  Speaker 13: Our rescue plane gets there and 45 short hours later.
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: So the plane takes off.
• 42:23
  Speaker 6: They now understand that they're required to attempt to rescue
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: these survivors.
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: The plan takes off and it just starts circling. Why
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: would it do that?
• 42:34
  Speaker 13: I can't answer for them, but it seems as if
• 42:37
  Speaker 13: the plan is what they would call in the military,
• 42:39
  Speaker 13: as a guy who used to be in the military,
• 42:41
  Speaker 13: slow rolling it. Let time do its job while it
• 42:45
  Speaker 13: looks like you're doing your job.
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: So instead of executing them 45 minutes later.
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: We deliberately let every single one of them slowly drown.
• 42:57
  Speaker 13: That's right.
• 42:58
  Speaker 8: That's right.
• 42:58
  Speaker 13: And there's also been reports in at least two other
• 43:01
  Speaker 13: cases where our Coast Guard contacted Coast Guards of another country,
• 43:06
  Speaker 13: either Mexico or El Salvador in two different cases, and
• 43:10
  Speaker 13: asked them to conduct a rescue operation that from what
• 43:12
  Speaker 13: we hear from people who are in those port towns,
• 43:15
  Speaker 13: never actually left the port.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Unbelievable. And if you listen to Trump, particularly about the
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: double tap.
• 43:22
  Speaker 13: Trump says, well, people say one strike, two strikes for me.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: I just wanted them taken out.
• 43:26
  Speaker 13: So he really believes that he has this kind of
• 43:29
  Speaker 13: imperial power that can, with a wave of a hand, say,
• 43:33
  Speaker 13: I want these people killed and they'll be killed. And
• 43:36
  Speaker 13: I think this is a key part of this when
• 43:37
  Speaker 13: you're wondering why. What's going on here? The cartels have
• 43:42
  Speaker 13: been designated as terrorist organizations by the FTL, Foreign Terrorist Organizations,
• 43:49
  Speaker 13: by the State Department. Now, that makes it harder for
• 43:51
  Speaker 13: them to travel. It makes it harder for them to bank.
• 43:54
  Speaker 13: It is not a death penalty. There is not a
• 43:57
  Speaker 13: trial or a jury involved. And yet the Trump administration
• 44:00
  Speaker 13: wants you to think that if you've been labeled a terrorist,
• 44:03
  Speaker 13: that it can kill you. And if American citizens accept that,
• 44:09
  Speaker 13: it does not stop in the Caribbean. Look at the
• 44:12
  Speaker 13: way they responded to Alex Preddy and Rene Good's deaths, right?
• 44:16
  Speaker 13: They were domestic terrorists. So if they say you're a terrorist...
• 44:20
  Speaker 13: They're saying they can take you out. And that will
• 44:22
  Speaker 13: happen domestically if people don't say something about this.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: And here's the other thing. I know Alex Petty's name.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: I know Renee Good's name.
• 44:32
  Speaker 13: Why don't we know the names of these people?
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: It's the same situation, right? It's the U.S.
• 44:36
  Speaker 13: Government murdering people. Without trial or jury, we should know
• 44:40
  Speaker 13: their names. But it's unclear if the U.S. knows who
• 44:43
  Speaker 13: they're killing. We submitted detailed questions to Southern Command, State Department,
• 44:47
  Speaker 13: and the White House. asking, was Alejandro Carranzo killed in
• 44:51
  Speaker 13: the strike on this day? Were Ricky Joseph and Nafi
• 44:55
  Speaker 13: Williams killed in the strike on February 13th? And they
• 44:58
  Speaker 13: did not respond to either of those questions. They responded
• 45:00
  Speaker 13: to us, but they did not answer those specific questions.
• 45:03
  Speaker 13: And so it remains unclear if they even know who
• 45:05
  Speaker 13: they're killing.
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: Let's talk about another man whose name we should know,
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: Rene Cobos. So another layer of this is that Daniel Nebo,
• 45:14
  Speaker 6: who's the head of Ecuador, is himself accused of being
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: a massive narco trafficker. He's the scion of a banana
• 45:24
  Speaker 6: export company. The banana shipments are constantly getting found to
• 45:29
  Speaker 6: be smuggling huge amounts of cocaine, particularly to Europe. Violence
• 45:34
  Speaker 6: in Ecuador under Neboa has made it one of the
• 45:37
  Speaker 6: most dangerous places in the world. So Dropsite, for its
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: reporting on the CIA-linked boat strike, and your team as well,
• 45:49
  Speaker 6: worked with Rene Cobos.
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: Tell us, like, who was Rene?
• 45:55
  Speaker 13: Rene is, he lives in Guayaquil, Ecuador, near there. And
• 46:00
  Speaker 13: he was a, he had kind of a security background.
• 46:04
  Speaker 13: We first engaged with him under a security situation, but
• 46:08
  Speaker 13: he ended up becoming a fixer and then a producer,
• 46:11
  Speaker 13: acting as a field producer in pieces. We did a
• 46:14
  Speaker 13: piece on the Ecuadorian military disappearing children.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: Um, last year.
• 46:19
  Speaker 13: And Renee was a field producer on that. He's also
• 46:21
  Speaker 13: recently worked with the BBC as a field producer. And
• 46:24
  Speaker 13: about three weeks ago, you had two trucks of armed men,
• 46:27
  Speaker 13: three armed men, each in jackets with, uh, some with pistols,
• 46:30
  Speaker 13: some with rifles show up to his neighbor's house about
• 46:34
  Speaker 13: two in the morning, go in and kill his neighbor
• 46:36
  Speaker 13: before they realized it was the wrong guy, went into
• 46:38
  Speaker 13: the next house and killed Renee.
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: Renee was a fix fixer for us as well. Um,
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: you would were telling me recently that he actually saved
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: your life. At one point you tell us that story.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 46:51
  Speaker 13: We were, uh, investigating the illicit trade of shark fins
• 46:54
  Speaker 13: and we were on the coast of Ecuador, which is
• 46:57
  Speaker 13: a heavily contested area by the new Jalisco cartel and
• 47:00
  Speaker 13: the Sinaloa cartel are having a fight there. It was
• 47:03
  Speaker 13: an extremely violent time. This is a time where it
• 47:07
  Speaker 13: was right before the Nebo election. So let's say three
• 47:10
  Speaker 13: years ago, I think my years run together. Um, You
• 47:16
  Speaker 13: had a presidential candidate who was assassinated in the street
• 47:19
  Speaker 13: in broad daylight by seven Colombian sicarios. A governor was
• 47:24
  Speaker 13: murdered shortly after that. We go in. We're on the
• 47:29
  Speaker 13: coast at the Santa Rosa Fish Market. And the mayor
• 47:34
  Speaker 13: of the town we were in, while we were there,
• 47:36
  Speaker 13: it was like one block away from us, was surrounded
• 47:38
  Speaker 13: by gunmen. They opened fire on his car with him
• 47:41
  Speaker 13: and his wife in it, but it was a bulletproof car,
• 47:43
  Speaker 13: so he survived.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Just to set the scene for how.
• 47:46
  Speaker 13: violent the country was at this moment. The elections were
• 47:48
  Speaker 13: going to happen that weekend. We went in and filmed
• 47:51
  Speaker 13: at a place where they were offending sharks and people
• 47:53
  Speaker 13: got really upset. And we had been working with a
• 47:55
  Speaker 13: high level smuggler there and we were supposed to interview
• 47:57
  Speaker 13: him and protect his identity. We had already interviewed some
• 48:00
  Speaker 13: lower level smugglers and protected their identity. But when he
• 48:02
  Speaker 13: found out we filmed at this fish market without basically
• 48:05
  Speaker 13: his permission, things went south pretty fast. And they said,
• 48:10
  Speaker 13: we need to get out for our safety. And then
• 48:12
  Speaker 13: people started canceling interviews on us. And then that night
• 48:14
  Speaker 13: he called my producer and said, Oh, which means keep
• 48:18
  Speaker 13: your eyes out.
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: It's a threat.
• 48:20
  Speaker 13: Um, and said that they say you're DEA, which is
• 48:22
  Speaker 13: an accusation you can't disprove when you're in that kind
• 48:25
  Speaker 13: of environment. And the tricky part was we're in this, uh,
• 48:30
  Speaker 13: basically a soft location, no security at all at the
• 48:32
  Speaker 13: house we're staying at. And, um, we called Renee and
• 48:36
  Speaker 13: Guayaquil and they're about to shut down the highways because
• 48:39
  Speaker 13: of the election, they were stopping all highways. And it's
• 48:42
  Speaker 13: about 10 o'clock at night. He said, I'll be there
• 48:45
  Speaker 13: by 530 in the morning. Don't check out of your hotel.
• 48:47
  Speaker 13: Don't pay your bill. We'll take care of that later.
• 48:49
  Speaker 13: And tell these guys that you're headed to Manta, which
• 48:52
  Speaker 13: is the opposite direction. So like, I'm sorry, we've offended you.
• 48:56
  Speaker 13: We're going to leave after the election in a couple
• 48:59
  Speaker 13: of days and we're going to go to Manta. And
• 49:01
  Speaker 13: then he was there before the sun came up and
• 49:03
  Speaker 13: he got us to Guineville, the other direction safely. And
• 49:06
  Speaker 13: those are kind of things like, okay, no bullet was
• 49:08
  Speaker 13: ever fired. But when you start getting threats like that
• 49:10
  Speaker 13: in an area like that, in a place like Ecuador
• 49:12
  Speaker 13: right now, you take those threats really serious. And Rene
• 49:14
  Speaker 13: dropped everything and extracted us out of that situation.
• 49:16
  Speaker 5: And put himself in danger to do it.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: He absolutely put himself in danger.
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: Because he could have been like, you know what?
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: Busy tomorrow.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: And you know, he did it without pause.
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: He did it without pause. I mean, this was like
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: 10 o'clock at night.
• 49:28
  Speaker 13: And he was there by 530 in the morning. And
• 49:29
  Speaker 13: it was a two hour drive. And so, you know,
• 49:34
  Speaker 13: this happens too often in journalism. Those are the guys
• 49:36
  Speaker 13: who are there, who are actually living the risk and
• 49:39
  Speaker 13: will be there after I go in for two weeks
• 49:43
  Speaker 13: and leave. And I carry a really heavy heart for
• 49:46
  Speaker 13: the risk that those guys carry, particularly when it ends
• 49:49
  Speaker 13: up like this with Rene.
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: Any reaction from the government to his killing, the assassination?
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: Not that I have heard of.
• 49:57
  Speaker 13: There's also been assassination of a prosecutor there recently who
• 50:01
  Speaker 13: was investigating the boat strikes off the Ecuadorian coast. There's
• 50:04
  Speaker 13: so much violence in Ecuador right now. I would suspect
• 50:07
  Speaker 13: that there isn't going to be much of an investigation.
• 50:10
  Speaker 13: And in fact, there have been, I would say, credible
• 50:14
  Speaker 13: accusations that the police were involved in what happened to René.
• 50:18
  Speaker 13: But I can't prove that. It's just the way they
• 50:20
  Speaker 13: showed up, the equipment they had. That's what people there
• 50:22
  Speaker 13: have said.
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: Well, let's finish by rolling this clip, which you can
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: find on YouTube, Killing at Sea.
• 50:37
  Speaker 11: I think we're just going to kill people that are
• 50:40
  Speaker 11: bringing drugs into our country.
• 50:43
  Speaker 5: Okay, we're going to kill them. You know, they're going
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: to be like dead.
• 50:48
  Speaker 13: In September 2025, the Trump administration began targeting vessels in
• 50:53
  Speaker 13: the Caribbean and Eastern Pacific that it claims were carrying
• 50:56
  Speaker 13: drugs to the U.S.
• 50:57
  Speaker 11: Whoever are piloting those boats, they're guilty of trying to
• 51:00
  Speaker 11: kill people in our country.
• 51:02
  Speaker 13: More than 220 people have been killed in over 60 strikes.
• 51:06
  Speaker 13: but the Trump administration hasn't released any of their names.
• 51:11
  Speaker 13: The only public evidence of their deaths are official press
• 51:13
  Speaker 13: releases and these videos posted by the administration.
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: It looks like a video game. These are grainy videos
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: where you can't even see individual people.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: You just see a boat blow up.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: It's easy to distance yourself from the humanity.
• 51:31
  Speaker 6: Documentary is called Killing at Sea. You can find it
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: on YouTube now. I strongly recommend you check it out.
• 51:37
  Speaker 6: Josh Rushing, thank you so much for being here. Really
• 51:40
  Speaker 6: appreciate it.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. This is an
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: important issue.
• 51:45
  Speaker 13: And I think right here, you're in between the one
• 51:46
  Speaker 13: year anniversary of the first strike and the 25th anniversary
• 51:50
  Speaker 13: of 9-11. And you can trace the American reaction to
• 51:53
  Speaker 13: 9-11 directly to what we're doing now.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: And that path goes through.
• 51:57
  Speaker 13: Obama's drone war, which may be why more Democrats aren't
• 52:00
  Speaker 13: speaking out about it. But they should, particularly as this expands.
• 52:04
  Speaker 13: into a much larger military expansion into the Western Hemisphere.
• 52:07
  Speaker 11: Thank you so much.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, Emily.
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: That's going to do it for us on today's edition
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: of Breaking Points. Thank you so much for tuning in.
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: Of course, if you want to make Ryan proud and
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: Sagar angry, head to BreakingPoints.com for a free month trial
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: of a premium subscription. That's where you also get a
• 52:23
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• 52:26
  Speaker 4: show uncut in your inbox every morning early.
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: All right. Thank you.
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: Appreciate it, Ryan, and I will be back on Friday.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: Crystal and Sagar will be back tomorrow.
• 52:33
  Speaker 7: All right.
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: See you then.
• 52:35
  Speaker 9: Thank you.