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Understanding Chiropractic · Why We Do What We Do

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
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  Speaker 1: innately intelligent host, Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm your cricky, cracky host Shane.
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  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
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  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do. And I said,
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  Speaker 1: the kind of weird and non human animals that's what
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  Speaker 1: it is, what they do too. And sometimes we talk
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  Speaker 1: about I don't want I want, I want to like
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  Speaker 1: get us there. I want to build up to it.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes we talk about stuff that we need to build
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  Speaker 1: up to. Sure, Yes, that's what it'll be today. So
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  Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. I hope that you enjoy
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  Speaker 1: what you hear in this discussion today. And if you
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  Speaker 1: join us on Patreon. I'll talk more about the ways
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  Speaker 1: that you can support us at the end of this discussion,
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  Speaker 1: but I'd also like to welcome you your first time.
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  Speaker 1: Happy to have you here. Thanks for joining us. I
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  Speaker 1: hope that you enjoy it. If you're a returning person,
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  Speaker 1: thank you for coming back. Either way, It is September tenth,
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  Speaker 1: which means happy blame it on the Large Hadron Collider Day.
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  Speaker 2: Call a day?
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  Speaker 1: Why is that a thing?
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  Speaker 2: It's that today? And it's also International Creepy Boston Dynamics
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  Speaker 2: Robotic Horse Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so we're going with a sort of broadly we're
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  Speaker 1: a little bit scared of science feel I get sure
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  Speaker 1: that's the sort of yeah, which actually is ary on
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  Speaker 1: par with what we're going to talk about today.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It is also International Makeup Day. That's cool. We did
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  Speaker 1: a whole episode on makeup Day.
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  Speaker 2: I know we did.
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  Speaker 1: I love that or not makeup Day, but makeup Yeah
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  Speaker 1: we didn't.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, makeup days is a whole different episode for a
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  Speaker 2: different day. Well today it would have been good for it.
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  Speaker 2: I guess.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a National hot Dog Day Joey Chestnut Day.
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  Speaker 2: Then, yeah, eighty hot dogs.
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  Speaker 1: It is so be it with so spelled sew because
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  Speaker 1: you know English, so something to do with textiles. I guess.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's Swap Ideas Day.
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  Speaker 1: Ohthough works, we're going to swap ideas with y'all. Yeah,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: well it's kind of a one sided swap, but you
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  Speaker 1: can always right into us and then it becomes a
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  Speaker 1: dynamic swap.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that.
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  Speaker 1: It is TV Dinner Day. Man, I've almost I haven't
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  Speaker 1: heard those words together, and sometime right.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like there's just a whole market for like
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  Speaker 2: good vegan TV dinners that are like a la kid
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  Speaker 2: cuisine style, and we just they just haven't hit they
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  Speaker 2: haven't tapped that market yet, you know, mis opportunities. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It is World Suicide Prevention Day.
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  Speaker 1: Extremely important suicide hotline in the US is nine to
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  Speaker 1: eight eight. Give them a call if you were struggling
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  Speaker 1: with those thoughts.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: It is Direct Support Professional Recognition Week. Yeah, that's great,
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  Speaker 1: we support.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. A good way to support them also is like
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, working with legislation to raise the rates
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  Speaker 2: that they get paid so that we can pay them
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  Speaker 2: more because they don't get paid nearly enough for the
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  Speaker 2: amazing work that they do, so we want to make
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  Speaker 2: sure we support them in those ways. It is International
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  Speaker 2: Air Ambulance Week. I just pictured like a flying ambulance,
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  Speaker 2: like a dry like a car.
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  Speaker 1: Right when you said that, Yeah, that was that was
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  Speaker 1: the image of my mind. I was like almost like
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  Speaker 1: a catapult, but like it was propelling itself. Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I get the arc sort of in my mind. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: if you're into it as line dance week.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, it's also a malnutrition Awareness.
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  Speaker 1: Week, Minimally Invasive Surgery Week. Sure.
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  Speaker 2: Ooh. It is National Assisted Living Week.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, man man, we did maybe talk about assisted living.
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  Speaker 2: We should at a point.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, that's got to go on the list.
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  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 1: National Biscuit and Gravy Week.
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  Speaker 2: Love that being from the South, No, that that's true.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right in your wheelhouse.
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  Speaker 2: I make a mean vegan biscuits and gravy. So if
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  Speaker 2: you're ever when you're when you're in town, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I got you.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: It is National Suicide Prevention Week.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I see Suicide Prevention Day and Suicide Prevention Week.
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  Speaker 1: That makes sense. This should have overlap. Sure is National
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  Speaker 1: waffle Week. Oh waffle House, this is the this is
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  Speaker 1: their week.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's well. This is usually when they do
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  Speaker 2: the boxing tournaments and stuff in the parking lots at
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  Speaker 2: the waffle houses. Nice, you know this is like this
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  Speaker 2: is there's it's tournament week there, like there's some people
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  Speaker 2: are going to get into and fisticuffs, which is every
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  Speaker 2: also every week at waffle House. So yeah, it's a
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  Speaker 2: Sobriety Checkpoint Week. Love that, yeah for sure. And it
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  Speaker 2: is substitute teacher Appreciation Week. Ugh, so great.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah we need them. They help us. Yes, all right,
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  Speaker 1: but we talk about things other than just holidays. And
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  Speaker 1: I think we are ready to dive into our discussion
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  Speaker 1: today because there is a lot to unpack here, and
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  Speaker 1: I do want to say up front this this is
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  Speaker 1: a topic about which I'm expecting us to offend some people, sure,
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  Speaker 1: and make a lot of people angry, and we're not
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  Speaker 1: trying to do that. So we're going to try and
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  Speaker 1: present this as objectively as possible and understands that this
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  Speaker 1: is not going to be as black and white as
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  Speaker 1: it sounds like it's going to be for the most
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  Speaker 1: of the discussion, like we are going to bring some
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  Speaker 1: sort of we're going to try and bring some nuance.
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  Speaker 1: We're really trying to do this as accurately as we can,
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  Speaker 1: and understanding that that does mean that there are people
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  Speaker 1: who believe in the thing that we're about to talk about,
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  Speaker 1: and they otherwise embrace other like very evidence based sort
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  Speaker 1: of practices, and it's just this one thing that they
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  Speaker 1: sort of got on board with and they don't. It's
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  Speaker 1: and maybe exists in sort of a blind spot for them,
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  Speaker 1: which I know is language we're not really supposed to.
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  Speaker 1: That's not as sensitive, and I apologize, but it's it's
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  Speaker 1: something where they sort of maybe don't have a critic
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  Speaker 1: the lens toward it. Sure, and so what we want
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  Speaker 1: to do is unpack this as objectively as we can.
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  Speaker 1: We are coming from a biased perspective that will become
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  Speaker 1: obvious very quickly. But that's my CoA before we jump
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  Speaker 1: into this, I guess.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, the goal of the show is always to
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  Speaker 2: be intellectually curious and intellectually honest and be skeptical.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, primary goal.
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  Speaker 2: That is the goal of the episode. Yes, sometimes we
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  Speaker 2: get off on tangents, but we always try to come
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  Speaker 2: back to we want to answer questions and like have
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  Speaker 2: objective answers to questions. That's what we're trying to do. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and so that's that's how that's why we're here.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, So the way I would like to start this
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  Speaker 1: is we're going to start by describing some things that
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  Speaker 1: may be sound a little crazy, sounded crazy to us,
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  Speaker 1: and then after we've described it, we'll tell you exactly
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  Speaker 1: what it is. If you haven't figured it out by
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  Speaker 1: that point, and then we will I think it'll help
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  Speaker 1: set the stage for like where we're going with this,
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  Speaker 1: If that makes sense.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, absolutely. So imagine that we told you that
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  Speaker 2: there is one singular cause for all diseases that humans suffer.
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  Speaker 2: It is physical. It's in the body, and with some
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  Speaker 2: carefully placed pressure, we can cure any ailment whatsoever.
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  Speaker 1: There's more, yeah, of course, or not done. Part of
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  Speaker 1: the belief that is foundational to this idea is that
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  Speaker 1: the body can heal itself of any ailment again with
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  Speaker 1: the right pressure.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, And we will also tell you that rigorous scientific
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  Speaker 2: research has yielded almost no benefit from this pressure for
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  Speaker 2: any medical condition, and that medical doctors tend to recommend
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  Speaker 2: against it, and that practitioners of this particular practice actively
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  Speaker 2: campaign against known effective medicines.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so understanding so far that we're talking about a
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  Speaker 1: thing that has no evidence for its effectiveness. And another
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  Speaker 1: important thing to understand is that many people have died
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  Speaker 1: from this practice. Sure, so it won't help you and
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  Speaker 1: it might kill you.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So in s a reas a practice that believes
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  Speaker 2: that all diseases have the same cause and functionally the
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  Speaker 2: same treatment that the body can heal itsself of any
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  Speaker 2: problem that is at odds with current medicine in science
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  Speaker 2: and current evidence, and that research does not support its efficacy,
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  Speaker 2: and that you might dive if you do it. So
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  Speaker 2: are you sold on this procedure? Are you going to
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  Speaker 2: jump in and dive in and try to seek this cure?
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  Speaker 2: If you will?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, if it was laid out for you in that manner,
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  Speaker 1: are you thinking, I'm curious? Sign me up for that.
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  Speaker 1: I would be surprised if you were. We're talking about
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  Speaker 1: chiropractic interventions, and just in case you haven't heard of
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  Speaker 1: this or are maybe unfamiliar with it, or you've maybe
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  Speaker 1: seen it around but you really don't know what it is,
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  Speaker 1: Chiropractic interventions are an alternative medicine that primarily employs techniques
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  Speaker 1: to manipulate your spine in an attempt to treat a
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  Speaker 1: wide range of possible medical conditions. As we said, pretty
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  Speaker 1: much all of them. So the idea is that whatever
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  Speaker 1: ails you, we can do something to your spine and
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  Speaker 1: that'll fix you. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Now it is probably clear from the tone
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  Speaker 2: so far coming from right, you know what our bias
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  Speaker 2: is here. So let's put it this way. We are
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  Speaker 2: committed to relaying to you only what has been described
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  Speaker 2: by others, including peer reviewed publications. We are not trying
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  Speaker 2: to attack anyone personally. We know that there is a
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  Speaker 2: wide spectrum of people to practice in the space, and
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  Speaker 2: also there's probably some chiropractors that say, you know what,
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  Speaker 2: you're better off going to this doctor and stuff like that.
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  Speaker 2: There's probably like a blend and stuff like this. So
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  Speaker 2: we're going to be as fair as we can, and
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  Speaker 2: that's going to be critically important as we go through this,
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  Speaker 2: and we're going to welcome criticisms. We're going to welcome
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  Speaker 2: communication as part of this, but we're going to present
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  Speaker 2: the information that is available to us current best evidence
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  Speaker 2: in relation to this particular topic.
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  Speaker 1: Now where we're at right now, I want to give
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  Speaker 1: sort of a this is a lateral topic shift, if
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  Speaker 1: you will, but it's just it's going to be important
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  Speaker 1: for in just a moment. So I just want to
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  Speaker 1: jump into this quick side note because this will be
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: important here in a minute. I'm going to talk quickly
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  Speaker 1: about faith healing, and you can kind of insert anything
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  Speaker 1: in the spectrum of that sure snake oil. So faith ailing,
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  Speaker 1: which is complete and under bullsh doesn't work at all.
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  Speaker 1: The way that it might work is it might claim
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  Speaker 1: to have cured a disease or illness or injury or
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  Speaker 1: something by employing a strategy. The way that they do
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  Speaker 1: this is the person said to have been cured didn't
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  Speaker 1: actually have that disease or illness, or at least not
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  Speaker 1: as badly as was claimed by the quote unquote healer.
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  Speaker 1: Just to know that. That's the thing that they'll do
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  Speaker 1: is though, like, in order for us to sound like
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  Speaker 1: we've solved this problem, we're going to invent that the
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  Speaker 1: problem existed in the first place, because then when we
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  Speaker 1: show you that we've solved it, it looks convincing because
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  Speaker 1: that problem's no longer there, although it actually wasn't there
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  Speaker 1: to begin with, or at least not really there, Like
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  Speaker 1: it was kind of maybe a little bit there, right right.
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  Speaker 1: That's a strategy that they use in those spaces. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: just want to make sure that's out there before we
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  Speaker 1: move on.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean a problem that does exist though
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  Speaker 2: that keeps coming up or ads.
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  Speaker 1: Ugh, Okay, we're back. We want to jump in to
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  Speaker 1: this discussion by unpacking a little bit the history of
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  Speaker 1: chiropractic medicine. We kind of want to know where it
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  Speaker 1: came from. And this part's actually shorter than you might think. Sure, okay,
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  Speaker 1: so chiropractors have claimed some of them, many many of them,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, in places where you look, that the
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  Speaker 1: methods involved in chiropractic care date back thousands of years.
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  Speaker 1: It's actually very common. Again sort of a side note,
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  Speaker 1: but it's fairly common in alternative medicine and other pseudoscientific
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  Speaker 1: medicines to claim something of this nature, that their strategies
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  Speaker 1: are ancient wisdom. In fact, this very claim was front
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  Speaker 1: and center on a chiropractic website we found in preparation
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  Speaker 1: for this discussion, Like this ancient wisdom it goes back
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  Speaker 1: thousands of years sort of thing.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, so it's unclear what they're referring to, though. Chiropractic
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  Speaker 2: medicine actually has fairly well documented start date of September eighteenth,
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  Speaker 2: eighteen ninety five, one hundred and thirty years ago, almost
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: to the day that we're recording this. Yeah, one week off,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: just one week off, like we could have We could
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: have pushed this back one week and we would have
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  Speaker 2: been surprised. Here we are right celebrating. Now some psych
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  Speaker 2: Hippocrates as saying, quote, look well to the spine as
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  Speaker 2: the cause of disease end quote. And so that might
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  Speaker 2: be maybe what they're referring to.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I do think like there were people
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  Speaker 1: operating in what would be regarded now as a medical
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  Speaker 1: space back then who did think about and talk about
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  Speaker 1: and understand the spine to be very important. Yeah, and
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  Speaker 1: so that is kind of maybe what they're alluding to
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  Speaker 1: is that, like we've known this, the spine is important.
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  Speaker 2: To me, Like one of my favorite things is like,
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  Speaker 2: and maybe this is because I grew up with Bill
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: and Ted, but I'd like to think of like old
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  Speaker 2: philosophers getting together and getting really stone and being like, guys, listen,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: wait a second, Like what if what if every idea
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  Speaker 2: that could ever exist already exists and we just pull
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: it from the ether man, Like I could see that
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: happening and just being really like that would be a
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: really fun discussion. Also probably not the fun person at
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the party today, but like maybe back then it was fun.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is to me sort of like claiming that
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  Speaker 1: neurology has a tradition that's thousands of years old, because
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  Speaker 1: they also understood that the brain was like important, sure,
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  Speaker 1: Like if you do damage to it, the bad things happen.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well maybe good things depending on what position or
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: what side of the swinging blade you're on in that case.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so there is a somewhat apocryphal story. The people
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  Speaker 1: involved are not apocryphal. The story itself is apocryphal. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: But the founder of chiropractic medicine who established this on
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  Speaker 1: September eighteenth, eighteen ninety five. His name is Daniel D. Palmer,
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  Speaker 1: sometimes written as D. D. Palmer. He claimed to cure
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  Speaker 1: a man of deafness by employing a specific manipulation of
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  Speaker 1: his spine. That was his claim on this date. The
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  Speaker 1: man in question Harvey Lillard. He had a daughter, though,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: who instead recounted a different verse of that story. Somewhat Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: speaking of Palmer real quick. In the town that I
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  Speaker 1: live in, there's a Palmer Chiropractic School Wilds.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's right down the road
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  Speaker 2: and across the street from a funeral home.
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  Speaker 1: I can almost guarantee you that there. It's a school.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: You said it's a school, Yeah, yeah, I can almost
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  Speaker 1: guarantee you they're employing his exact like legacy here.
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  Speaker 2: So in Harvey Lillard's Daughter's telling, her father told a
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  Speaker 2: joke that Palmer heard. Upon hearing the punchline, Palmer slapped
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Lord affectionately on the back, and Lollard reported that he
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: briefly felt as if after the pat on the back,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: he was hearing slightly better. Both Lollard and his daughter
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  Speaker 2: claimed that he was only mildly deaf to begin with.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, maybe related to the faith healing thing I mentioned
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: before this, So whatever happened Palmer, who by the way,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: was a magnet therapist at this time, it is what
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: it sounds like, They put magnets on your body to
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  Speaker 1: heal it. Hmm, yes, it's bullshit, it doesn't work. That
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  Speaker 1: was what he was doing. Sure, so he shouts here
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  Speaker 1: and chiropractic medicine was born, so he saw he's doing
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  Speaker 1: his magnet therapy. That's sort of like his primary job.
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  Speaker 1: And he appears to have discovered this way to cure
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  Speaker 1: deafness than anything else by applying pressure to this guy's spine.
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  Speaker 1: So then he's like, I'm going to incorporate this into
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: the very real magnet medicine that I'm doing, and that's
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  Speaker 1: what happened.
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  Speaker 2: You know, if you think about this from like a
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  Speaker 2: like a business standpoint, it's probably cheaper to be a
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  Speaker 2: chiropractor than it is to be a magnet therapist because
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  Speaker 2: you don't have the overhead of having the purchase magnets.
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  Speaker 1: Fair, although it's possible they can like reuse them over
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  Speaker 1: and over again.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's fair.
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  Speaker 1: And it's also like, I don't know how many people
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  Speaker 1: I would guess very few people were checking that they
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: were actually a magnetic to begin with, Like it could
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: have just been like, sure, these like rocks carved into
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: diss horseshoes, Yeah, painted like magnets. Yeah, yeah, exactly, painted
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: it like red and then the tips are white.
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  Speaker 2: He's like, okay, So back to the history of this.
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  Speaker 2: So Palmer did not actually have a medical license, and
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: in nineteen oh six he was jailed for practicing medicine
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  Speaker 2: without a license and other chiropractice at the same time.
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  Speaker 2: To avoid for the prosecution for doing illegal, fraudulent, dangerous things,
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  Speaker 2: Palmer considered establishing chiropractic medicine as a religion, which makes
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of sense. It's not you can't it's not punishable.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: At that point in time.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also like that's where he's coming from with
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: this thing that's supposedly medicine. It's like, well I just
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: call it religion, yeah exactly, rather than go through the
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: steps of like establish this as a medicine, Like, it's
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: a lot easier for me. Like I've got to pretend
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: that this is a thing anyway, So it may as
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: well pretend that is the thing in the eyes of God. Sure,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: so anyway, and under the banner of God or under
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: the banner of Him is a really good way to say. Yeah,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: such a good title. Anyway. So, as we mentioned, so
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: this is Palmer's whole thing here. He's doing this chiropractic
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: adjustment thing he is calling himself or he's doing medical practice,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: calling a medical practice, and so he gets arrested for this,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and he's like, well, maybe I'll just make this religion.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: As we mentioned, Palmer believed that the human body contained
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: this life force or an innate intelligence, and what that
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: means is this is also called vitalism. This means that
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: he believes that the body can heal itself of any
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: ailment by virtue of the central nervous system, but only
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: if the vertebrae are aligned correctly, which he can tell
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: by the way. Sure, and we mean everything everything. I
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: am guessing that this included curing all bacterial and viral
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: infections and diseases. I'm assuming that this must mean he
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: believes that he could heal amputations and cavities with these manipulations.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: So that's bold.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So his.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: First patient he claimed to have cured his deafness through
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: spinal manipulations. I would love to understand the mechanic by
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: which something like that could work. The second patient he
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: claimed to have cured his heart disease by these manipulations. Also, again,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I would love to understand how that could possibly be.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: But that was the history of him and this.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's important to like to like
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: maybe temper our sarcasm a little bit with understanding that
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: every field has someone somewhere that is like kind of
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: a scapegoat for their field that does this thing that's
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: like kind of wacky at the time of the thing,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Like you know, like we could like because I'm sure
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: that people are gonna come to us and be like, well,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: what about Freud. Yeah, of course Freud did cocaine about Boners.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: I get it. Like the point is is that off
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: of boners. Even he did rails off of boners, like
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: that's what that's what he was doing. So but I mean,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he really did that, but it's
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: one of those things where you can look back at
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: a practice compared to modern takes on it and go, yeah,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: that wasn't quite correct. Here's where we are now. So
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: what we're gonna do is we're going to talk about
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: understanding the practice of chiropractical today and what it acts
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: really means, because I am sure that it is a
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: little bit different and I say a little bit a
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: little bit different than its original history, right, yes, and
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: no to be charitable, to be terrible, since you asked,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: and will kind of unpack that, right, So let's talk
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: about the practice itself. So even chiropractors today believe and
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: will tell you that they are doing what is considered
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: alternative medicine. Whether it is a pseudoscience is a more
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: technical question, but it is by definition an alternative medicine.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And as a quick joke, and I've probably told this
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: on the podcast, so I apologize to everybody, but I'll
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: tell it again in case you forgot or just you know,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: for fun, refresher. So it's a riddle. I guess what
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: do you call alternative medicine that works?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I would say medicine? Yep, yep, I love that joke.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when it works, it gets adopted into the mainstream. Yeah,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: that has happened. Like there are traditions that have come
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: from or evolved out of, like some of these things
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: that they call ancient practices that were like actually affected
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: and those have evolved continued to develop into modern mainstream medicine.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: They look pretty similar. So yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, Okay, anyway,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: alternative medicine is interventions that are not condoned, by, supported by,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: or recommended by mainstream medical fields and professionals. That's what
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: alternative medicine means. And again they embrace and understand that
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: this is a thing, like everywhere you look, even those
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: who are are very bought into what they're doing. They say, like,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: we are an alternative medicine. Sometimes they say complementary and
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: alternative medicine. Sometimes they say supplemental medicine, that sort of thing. Sure,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: but that is what they what alternative medicine is. They're
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: they're not in league with a traditional medicine. And there
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: is like for those of us who see objective evidence
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: as suspect and unconvincing and find a lack of evidence
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and unproven claims by people who want to sell them
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: snake oil very convincing. Being shunned by the scientific community
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: is actually likely perceived by them to be a good
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: thing somehow. Sure, So you know they're like evidence, I
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: don't believe it, lack of evidence that I believe, right,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: And so when anything that is has the evidence, they're like, no,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: don't want to believe that, So then they believe this
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: other thing. So saying that it's not condoned as supported
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: by medicine is not that might be a selling point
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: for some people. Is just where I'm going with that. Yeah,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: but I just wanted to get that definition out there
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: for understanding what is an alternative medicine.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like skepticism without skill, right, Like you're questioning
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: the answer without knowing how to dig deeper. Like to me,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I hear this a lot where somebody will be like, nah,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: like I don't know why you would trust big pharm
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Like you know, big pharmacy, big pharma, you know, stuff
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: like that. It's like okay, fair, Like there are alter eoromotives,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and it is worth unpacking that. But also like there's
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: life saving medicine in this space that like we need
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: to know, and like there's other mechanisms here by which
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: we you know, this system operates. It's not just that
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: medicine bad, you know.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: So it's one of those things where it's like if
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: people I love the people like get the first half
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: of this, which is like question the answer, but they
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: don't know how to find the actual answer.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it ends up turning into because they'll call it skepticism,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: but it's more like we're choosing not to believe available evidence,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: which is not really what skepticism is. It's like it's
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: dogmatic belief in a thing that has counter to established things, right,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, they I think skeptics have tried to
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: invite the use of denier as an alternative to skeptic
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: in space is where they're denying evidence and believing whole
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: hog and a thing that is like unfounded and untested
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and unproven. Sure, I think I would continue to espouse
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: that tradition of like let's call them deniers because they're
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: believing in something. If that makes sense.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely so, I think it's important here to
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: look at the chiropractic work in general, right, So, like,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: what is vitally important to understand about chiropractical work is
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the underlying philosophy that guides quote unquote traditional chiropractors. Palmer's
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: argument was the vitalism argument, life force, innate intelligence hypothesis
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: type of thing. And this is the idea that our
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: bodies are completely capable of healing themselves as long as
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: the central nervous system as functioning optimally, which can only
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: happen if the spine is aligned correctly and aligned being
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: in quotes. If you don't believe this, and you shouldn't,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: then you don't believe in traditional chiropractic medicine. That's just
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: what it is. Your spine has to be aligned for
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: your central nervous system to work, like to work the
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: way it's opposed to.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: The ads have to be aligned to play at the
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: correct times of the episode.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Ah, it's always the ads.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: All right, it's quick adjustment and we're back. So yeah,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: like that, If you don't believe that, like if just
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: by popping your back you can cure anything, then you
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: don't believe in traditional chiropractic medicine.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Period. The reason that it's important to understand this philosophy
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: is that this does come with other important implications this
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: idea the body can heal itself, so very commonly, very
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: commonly chiropractors are anti vaccine in a lot of spaces,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: and it's because this. The idea of vaccines is antithetical
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to the philosophy that the body can heal itself, because
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: in the vaccine you have to administer some kind of
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: medicine to help prevent the onset of disease. And practice
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: this also can look like an outright rejection of nearly
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: all scientifically validated medical treatments, because again, if the underlying
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: philosophy is that all you need is to do things
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to the spine, then all other medicine is seen as
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: unnecessary and dangerous, and therefore anything vaccines, other medications, other
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: medical interventions, surgery even are seen again as unnecessary and dangerous,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: even though again those will be the things that save
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: your life and popping your back will not. When you're
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: like bleeding out through a hole in your chest, Sure
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: you don't want someone who's just like, well, I can
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: fix that for you a little pop your l four, right,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and so anyway, that's just a thing to make sure
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: we're understanding on the same page with So.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Anyway, the primary method by which chiropractors work is by
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: manipulating your spine anywhere from your pelvis to the base
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of your skull. Manipulation in this case refers to techniques
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: to push or pull the body such that the vertebrae
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: are pushed beyond their normal range of motion, an attempt
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: to quote realign the vertebrae. Now, the original term for this,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: frequently employed by founder Daniel Palmer, is vertebral subluxation sublaxation.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And this is a technical term. This is actually a
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: technical term, although it is not used in its technical
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: sense by many chiropractors.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And also there's just no evidence that spines are actually
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: realigned or that they were misaligned to begin with. Yeah,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: so there's also that piece which is kind of like
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: an interesting thing to unpack.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, misaligned spine would I think were a real thing.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Would mean your back is fully broken and you are
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: not moving. Yep, you are basically paralyzed. That I think again,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: understanding if it's large enough to be detectable that they're misaligned,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: you are not moving, You're basically paralyzed. If it's so
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: small that this quote unquote misalignment that you might be
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: suffering is not causing that kind of problem where you're
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: like paralyne and can't move that it's also unlikely to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: be detectable very easily through any diagnostic method, Like very
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: very very small offset means very very small correction should
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: it be needed. So yes, there's not an evidence that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: it was ever unaligned. There's not any evidence that it
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: is realigned after the case. This as a thing to understand,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: so yes, this just trying to make sure we're understanding
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: like how chiropractors work. They're going to push your pull
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: in the body in such a way that they're moving
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: your spine around. This might result in a popping sound.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: They're really pushing those vertebrae beyond their typical range of motion.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: These manipulations often involve a sudden, intense force somewhere on
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the body, frequently the back, but sometimes they'll pull the head,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: twist the neck, they'll pull the legs, or simply apply
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: pressure directly to parts of the spine. You can see
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: videos of this where they'll when they do a neck adjustment.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: If you will, they like have a towel around someone's
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: chin and head kind of tied loosely so it's not
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: strangling them, and they'll do like a really fast jerk
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: that will pull the spine. We'll get into some of
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that here in a moment, but there are various ways
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: that they do that, But that's essentially how they do
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: their stuff.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Another part of their practice is they will frequently
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: employ X rays is part of their routine, and use
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: this to justify their interventions and to monitor the effectiveness
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: of their interventions. Now, what's interesting about this is that
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: radiology is in and of itself an entire specialized field
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: of medicine with trained professionals whose only job is to
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: administer and read the results of scanning technology. They are
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: widely accepted by science based medicine as crucial for assessment
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and treatment of injuries. They go into many years of
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: school and training and certification. So that's the thing about
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: X rays that you should know. It's an evidence based,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: widely accepted science. Most of us cannot accurately understand how
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: to read X rays without specific training, So keep that
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: in mind as we're starting to look at interpretation and stuff.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just like the thing you should know. Yeah, radiology
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: the study of like scanning technology. Like people, this is
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: like a whole field CT scans, PET scans, X rays.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: But like that's a thing that that's all they do
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: those professionals do. Yeah, they are very competent. They are
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: very well trained and highly trained. And because it requires
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: the kind of training that they receive, like they are
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: employed in various medical positions where that's all they do
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: is they just go do scans and they interpret those
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: scans and relay that to the doctor. Sure, So that's
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: just a thing to know about how that technology works.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Although there are some tools, like physical tools that are
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: employed by chiropractors, a significant amount of their work is
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: done directly using their hands on your body. And that's
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: kind of the gist of it. That's really just understanding.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I think chiropractic more broadly is just that's the lay
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: of it. They're trying to push and pull on your spine.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they'll use tools. The frequently use X rays. Yeah, yeah,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and there you might hear popping sounds in the session,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: but that's what they do. They're in a message.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Spine and these are often called adjustments, yes, yeah.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they call it adjustments exactly right.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: With that being said, so you get an idea kind
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: of where we're at. We're going to go into some
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: of my favorite stuff to do, which is mythbusted.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is got to catch you title for the section.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this section is going to be titled the Myths
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: and busting the MythBusters attempting to bust those myths but
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: failing to do so. It sounds like a like a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: mid two thousands like metalcore band song title, like when
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: they all had really long song titles R and it
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, the song was like fifteen seconds,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: like curlup and Die would do that. Yeah, they have
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: really long song titles for a song that was like,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: you know, it took longer to say the title than
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: it was the song.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I love it.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So chiropractors are understandably pretty defensive about the criticism that
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: is so frequently lobbed them. And I can understand that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: being in a field where like you love it, you
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: believe in it, you're passionate about it. If you if
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: you hear criticisms like sometimes it's really easy to take
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: that personally. And so what they do is a lot
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of times chiropractors will try to get ahead of it.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: What they'll do is they'll try to dispel myths about chiropractors.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: So we are going to counter their myths and kind
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: of talk about what's being said and what this looks like.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: So I think we can go ahead with myth number one.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, well, and the way I'm going to present this,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have a myth, the chiropractic counter argument
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: to that myth, and then our rebuttal to their counter argument,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: if you will, sure, sure, Okay, So the myth one,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: So I found this on a website. I found this
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: a couple of different websites. I synthesize them down into
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: one list. I think there's five on here. But one
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: of the myths that they say that they were trying
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: to bust is that chiropractors are just fancy, highly paid
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: back crackers. All they do is pop your back. Is
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: essentially the argument that they saying as a myth that
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: they need to bust, and they instead say, well, they
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: actually do a whole lot of things that are beyond
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: just work on the spine, and they list kind of
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: what those things are. So that's their counter arguments to that.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Myth right. Our rebuttal to this is, first, almost no
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: one is making this claim. Maybe no one is making
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: this claim that chiropractors all they do is manipulate your back.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: This is a straw man argument. So you are setting
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: up an argument nobody's making and then knocking it down.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: That's what a straw man is. Sure, but the things
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that they do that they actually do besides pop your
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: back does not really make them sound better. So they
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: do low electricity stimulation, ultrasound, cold laser therapy, and they
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: prescribe homeopathic remedies, they do soft tissue therapy. They do
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: they claim to do surgery and nutrition and exercise counseling. Yikes,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Well they also do my taxes right on second thought,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: please don't do my taxes. And they don't actually do surgeries,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: although they may sever an artery. More on that later.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: But yes, so that's my rebuttal is, first of all,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: no one is really making that claim. Second, of all
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: the things that you say that you are doing in
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: addition to popping backs is sounds sketchy and dangerous in
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: some cases or just silly.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Sure. So myth too, is that chiropractors don't need a
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: degree that's what they're saying. And the counter argument that
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: they make is that they get a bachelor's degree and
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: a degree in chiropractic medicine from a chiropractic training school
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: and they might do an internship. And now our rebuttal
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: is this, getting a degree in something does not mean
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: that that thing is necessarily valid. There are lots of
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: programs that are not accredited, programs that are not scientifically
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: valid programs, and there's lots of different things like that, right,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So getting a degree in the geography of the Leprechawn
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: homeland from Leprechawn University does not make Leprechauns real. Also,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: that's not very much schooling for something that is touted
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: as a medical intervention. We're talking certificate programs that are
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: maybe shorter versus like medical school, which is more than
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: a decade of training. So, you know, it's it's kind
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: of a when we start kind of talking about this,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: and like when people talk about degrees, it is important
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: and understand where the degree comes from, whether it's a
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: validated field, and whether or not that school is accredited
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: in like important accreditation structures.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, and this is sort of a side note, but
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: also considering the regulating sort of overseeing bodies that exist
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: once you do get out into a professional space, which also, well,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: they don't exist in this field at least, but they
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: would in normal medical fields. So there's that, sure, all right.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Myth two point five is insert and ad here. All right,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: we're coming back.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't a myth, it was a fact. It
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: was confirmed. Ads do appear. They do when we say them.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: All right, So myth one all chiropractors do is pop backs.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: That's not real. Myth two. Chiropractors don't need a degree, sure,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: but the degree you're getting is from people who just
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: say the chiropractors are a thing. Myth three chiropractic adjustments
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: are dangerous. That's the myth that they're claiming to counter
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: against them. Their counter argument is that a few people
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: may experience some soreness after adjustments, and there might be
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: some other mor serious complications, but they're very rare, okay rebuttal.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: The side effects are actually so common that they're listed
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: pretty much anywhere that anyone has anything to say about
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: what to expect from chiropractors, including their own websites. These
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: can include headaches, soreness, and other pains for days or
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: even weeks afterward, so that's a thing. And by serious
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: complications what they mean is stroke and death. So that's
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of risk for something that has few or
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: no demonstrated benefits. Yes, it can be dangerous, and we
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: will get into those sort of numbers on this, because
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: they're actually not wrong. It is the outcomes of this
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: that are really serious are fairly rare, but they are there,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: which is important thing to understand, and we'll get to
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the numbers. But yes, again understanding risk versus reward in
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: this particular case as well.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: I think a charitable look at their counter argument here
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: is like, this is what scientists do as well. They'll
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: go they can't make general claims that will say like yes,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: this works for everybody or no it doesn't, right, they
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: have to include like, yeah, there are gonna be some
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: case examples where it's not going to work out, but
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: for the most part, it's fine, right, And that's and
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: you'll hear that kind of like that. It's I don't
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: want to say they're talking like scientists, but scientists will
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: do this where somebody will say, like what happened with
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: COVID right when the vaccines came out and everybody was
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: talk about vaccin. They were asking doctors like, well, is
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: a safe and they were like yeah, for the majority
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: of people every now and again, you're gonna have a
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: situation that's not great. It's the same thing like you
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: can't make like you can't over promise, and so they're
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: kind of like not over promising in their counter argument here,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: which is I think fair, But also they're making up
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the argument to argue against in this situation. So, okay,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: myth four medical doctors don't believe in chiropractic care, and
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: their argument is some do and it is frequently recommended
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: as supplementary care. Now, our rebuttal is this some do
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: is not a good argument. When we're talking about modern medicine.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: You probably want better consensus than some of them like it, right,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: most don't, and the reputable ones don't. Touting this is
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: a supplemental admits the lack of importance the role of
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: chiropractic techniques can play in medical treatments. It's supplemental as extra,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: not necessary, not required, and I think that's an important distinction.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go to a doctor that is
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: saying like, yeah, you could do this as like, yeah, help,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: like it could it could be a supplement, like no,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I want like the actual treatment.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's like take two of these, but also
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: do thirty hail meatballs to the flying spaghetti monster and
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: you will.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, be cure. Yeah yeah, it's you don't need to.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: It couldn't hurt, Yeah, but you don't need That's kind
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: of like the argument that they're making when they say
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: it's supplemental, but then in some cases it could hurt.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, anyway, that's the thing, like it might it'll
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: do nothing, but you might feel better. Uh, is sort
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: of it goes all right. Another myth this is not
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: one supplied by the chiropractors here. This is one that
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I saw as a thing that they just say. Those
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: say that chiropractic medicine is less expensive than similar forms
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: of medical care rebuttal when checking into the numbers, chiropractic
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: medicine usually costs about the same as other more traditional medicines,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: particularly because it tends to go long term, because you know,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: when you're not getting any better, you keep sharing and
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: going and going. But it does tend to cost the
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: same if you look at the overall numbers and like
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: one individual instance compared to another, you shouldn't like could
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: find examples and counterexamples of it costing more or less
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: than other more traditional routes. But if you really just
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: look at the overall picture there, they're pretty similar.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, So I think that's kind of like
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: the fun portion of this to kind of go like, yeah,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: here's a myths and then you know, it's not really
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: quite what they're saying and stuff like this. But I
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: do think it's important, and we think it's important as
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: scientists and as people who are trying to be skeptical
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: about this to talk about actual dangers. And so let's
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: go ahead and unpack that a little bit now first,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: because this is a practice that does not fall under
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: the purview of medicine. It is not regulated, and I
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: think that is really critical to remember when we talk
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: about this. It's not regulated the same way that the
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: medical field is regulated. There are certifications, there are state practices,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: state licenses and stuff like that are different, but it's
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: not regulated to the same degree the same rigor that
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: medicine is. There are over seventy thousand active chiropractors in
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: the United States right now, and they don't have a
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: system of oversight. This has resulted in a substantial amount
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: of allegations of fraud, sexual abuse and harassment, ethical violations,
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: and misleading or flat out false marketing.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you said, like there are like certification boards,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: but like none of them have a lot of teeth
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: that can't necessarily stop you from doing the thing that
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: you're doing. Sure, and in fact, some of them have
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: sort of a playbook for how to get away with
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So yeah, yeah, just as you said,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: it just lacks the level of systematic rigor and oversight.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Because it's not to say that there is absolutely no
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: oversight whatsoever. They obviously can't do just anything, but they
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: do have a very serious issue with quality control in
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the field and ensuring that people are doing well. First
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: of all, they don't like evidence based practice to begin with,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: so a lot of the boards that would over then
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: there's kind of a lot of them, but that would
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: oversee this like may or may not necessarily invite the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: kind of scrutiny that would come from requiring evidence based
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: practices as part of an intervention treatment plan. Right, Okay, Second,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: the dangers are very real to underreporting. We actually don't
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: know the exact numbers. One paper found that there were
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: twenty six confirmed deaths due to chiropractic interventions between nineteen
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: seventy five and two thousand and seven. I saw some
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: indication that this was in Australia only, but I was
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: having a hard time pitting down the exact numbers on that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: But anyway, it seemed like this was they were just
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: scouring the literature and this is what they found. Those
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: are low numbers, like twenty six in over in forty years,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: like that sufficient to say that it is rare, but
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: I would argue highly troubling if you have, for example,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: this thing that's like we don't really know that it works,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: we're not really sure if there's any benefits at all,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: and twenty six people have died.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's concerning the most common cause of death and
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: patients receiving chiropractic care is when a neck manipulation results
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: in a severing of a vertebral artery leading to a
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: stroke in the brain. So these arterial injuries may result
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: in ischemic stroke, blood clot formation, and paralysis as part
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: of that injury. So, yeah, that can be a little
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: bit scary.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very significant, dangerous thing. This has killed
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: very young people who have gone to this, like twenty
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: year old's teenagers by twenty fifteen article that seems suspiciously
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: defensive of chiropractic medicine even reported about forty cases of
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: injury including paralysis per one hundred thousand subjects who were
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: between the ages of sixty six and ninety nine. And
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: so for every one hundred thousand subjects there was forty
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: cases of injury. They were comparing that to more traditional medicine,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and like I said, it seemed like they were suspiciously
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: very much in favor of supporting chiropractic care. But again
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: taking together this is there is a lack of evidence
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: and for forty of every one hundred thousand they were
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: suffering these kind of ill effects that were the actual
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: injuries including paralysis. Yeah, and just in that population just
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: sixty sixty to ninety nine, that's like not most of
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: their clientele.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Right right right now. Chiropractic interventions can be dangerous if
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: you have any of the following conditions. So if you
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: have this, maybe don't go. And I say maybe, like
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: definitely don't go, just because it increases the risk of
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: harm or injury as a result. So severe osteoporosis, herniated disks,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: active or progressive infections, spinal compressions, inflammatory arthritis, Marfan syndrome
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: or Eller's dan Lows syndrome, or even a recent spinal surgery.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Those can all produce some high risks.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you also probably don't want to go to a
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: chiropractor if you have a vascular disorder, any recent fractures,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: particularly of the spine, if you're taking blood thinning medication,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: if you're taking medications that affect bone health, or if
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: you want to stay alive and uninjured. Just kidding, just
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: kidding on the last one. And I actually did see
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: conflicting information about herniated disks. We'll get to that in
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: a second. But yeah, those are conditions under which it
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: would not be recommended to see a chiropractor, although depending
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: on if you come from the Palmer school of thinking
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: on this, you would definitely recommend chiropractic for those interventions,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: because again, their idea is that spine manipulations are everything,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: even if your spine is broken.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, sure. Now, of course, with all alternative medicines,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: there is a risk that people will shoe effective medicine
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: to receive treatment solely from alternative medicine. That does happen,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: especially in the United States, which means going longer without
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: effective treatment, and that is actually our like to me,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: our larger concern. It's like, yeah, I don't want people injured,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: but the last thing I would want is for somebody
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: to have an actual ailment who could receive life saving treatment,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: to go to an alternative treatment situation and then fail
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: in that treatment, only to have wasted time when they
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: could have been cured, they could have been treated, they
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: could have resolved some type of medical issue to begin with.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: So that is such a significant concern, especially with all
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: alternative medicines. It's like there's a better way to do this,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: and you're going a route that's going to take you
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: much longer and not going to work.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to cover their butts, they'll do the whole like, oh,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: you know this is considered supplemental than the idea being
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: that you do those other things. But you also come
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: to us.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: It's the vitamin market. Yes, go look at go listen
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: to our episode on vitamins, like truly go listen to it,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: because like it's this is an example, like this is
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: the vitamin of medicine.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: And crystals are similar rate. Yeah, all right, so let's
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: actually go ahead. I do want to sort of be
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: a little more clear here. There is rigorous scientific research
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: that has shown that lower back manipulations that chiropractors do
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: can be effective for people who suffer from chronic back pain.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Some researchers found that chiropractic care can be as effective
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: for those injuries as more traditional physical therapy. Not more effective,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: mind you, I said as effective. Yeah, so that is
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: an alternative that there actually is science to say that
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: like this can work in these instances, in this situation
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: for these people.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think importantly there is at this point
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: in time, like we're talking about scientific rigor and evidence.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Right lower back, there is no benefit that we have
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: gleaned or learned at all from neck manipulations. So don't
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: let people with your neck. Lower back stuff is likely
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: pretty safe and can be effective, but do not mess
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: with your neck.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Then it's too much risk, Like.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: One wrong adjustment means that you are you can't breathe anymore,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Like let's.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe not do that, you know, and again, like there's
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: not really any evidence to say that it does anything.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: So like lower back stuff, there is evidence for that,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: there's stuff that that can actually help with particularly if
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you have back pain. But next stuff, sure, no, stay
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: away from the neck, stay away from the ads. All right,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: we're back, And I think the last section here is actually,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I think where we try to redeem ourselves to our
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: chiropractic apologist listener or listeners. There is kind of a
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: big schism in chiropractic medicine. Okay, there are a couple
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: of different camps of chiropractors out there. There are the
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: dogmatic followers of Palmer's original snake oil, and these are
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: sometimes referred to by some as straits, meaning they're they're
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: on the straight and narrow.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: I just thought it meant that it was more about
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: their alignment.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Oh they're like, oh that's so good. I like that
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: a lot more. What's considered that they're straights because they're spines.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, these spines are fully aligned.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: They're fully aligned. They also are fully bought into the
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: innate intelligence idea. They also follow and espouse the anti
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: vaccine rhetoric and homeopathy is very common. They very very
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: commonly prescribe homeopathy and all that. But there is another
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: group referred to as mixers, and these are people who
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: hold on to only a few or even no loyalty
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: to the ideas of Palmer as they were originally espoused.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: So there's those sort of two camps there. The people
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: who are straight spined the streets, the streets who cling
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: exactly to the dogmatic traditions that Palmer laid out, and
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: then those who are like and they sort of are
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: some of this may be kind of on the right track,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: but maybe not so much all of it, or they're
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: just like, no, none of that's real, but we still
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: think that there's importance in spine adjustments. So those sort
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: of the break there.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there seems to be a substantial skis in
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: between a wellness faction of Palmer loyalists and an evidence
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: faction of chiropractors who want to do legitimate science and
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: medicine specifically right. Six of the nine members of the
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: World Federation of Chiropractics Research Committee resigned when they reported
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: that they quote no longer feeled as possible to function
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: as independent academics in our roles on the committee end quote.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: So there are members of this community that are actively
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: seeking evidence, and I think that that's beautiful. I think
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: we need that to build up something that is that
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't have the evidence base to begin with.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. A similar chiropractic practitioner lamented in a Reddit post
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: that I found quote, I'm just saddened when people hate
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: chiropractic and think it's just full of quacks because of
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: the bad eggs out there. In my opinion, it's damaging
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: to our image, and we'll simply continue to stunt the
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: growth of chiropractic until these individuals are rooted out. End quote.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. I think there
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: are people that genuinely believe in this work, and I
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: think that if you want to be an academic and
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: a scientist in this space, like I think that the
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: first step is you need more evidence, and that's just
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: what it comes down to.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: So there are a lot of specifically chiropractors out there
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: who are interested and committed to joining the ranks of
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: science based medicine and leaving behind the mysticism of Palmer,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: like the mysticisms that modern medicine had to leave behind
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: to make a similar transition to science based medicine nearly
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: two centuries ago. I, for one, I think both of
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: us as the values of our podcast here, we welcome that.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: We want evidence based practice. We want stuff that works.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: We want stuff that's not going to harm people, and
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: it's going to save people time and actually going to
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: make people's quality of life better as a result of
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: effective treatment. Yeah, like we love that. Like So I think,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, like our problem, and
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: maybe I'm speaking for myself, our problem is not chiropracticed
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: as a whole. It's the people that refuse to advance
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: a field that could possibly benefit from additional scientific evidence.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: It's the people that hold on to mysticism that are
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: actively harming people. It's the snake oil salesmen that are
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: directly harming people and spreading misinformation about a practice that
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: is not scientific enough as it stands. So that's where
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I kind of land. It's like, if you are a
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: chiropractor and you are science forward, we love you, We
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: want to embrace that, and we want to provide all
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: the support we can if you're one of them Palmer's
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Williams streets. We don't want nothing. It's just like let
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: it go. Like we're moving on, we're advancing as a society,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: and we can't keep perpetuating alternative medicines in such a
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: way that we know are harmful.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think so there might be a contingent
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: of those out there who are like, you know what,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: they're coming from a ridiculous place. We don't want them,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: kick them out, like just get rid of it all together.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: The actually have not heard anyone say that. I think
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: that generally with all of us and the skeptical side
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: of things, and we're not medical doctors, but we're very
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: much in support of science based medicine sure, like that
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: whole approach to doing medical practice. I think that we
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: all would generally agree. Like if the practitioners, like the
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: scientists out in the chiropractic field, are wanting to bring
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: scientific rigor to their practice, I think we're like, yeah,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: come on over, like we want to have you on
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: our side with this, please. So I think we just
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: strongly want to include in this discussion. They're like, there
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: are it seems like there's a like a growing movement here,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: like this seems like there's a lot of chiropractors in
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: this space who are trying to move in a science
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: based direction. They're like, we know that what we're doing
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: helps and they're not wrong, Like there is research to
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: say that aspects of their interventions can be really effective,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: and like they're not all out there preaching anti vaccine.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Just those straits, you know, the palm, the palmer, diehards.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: The straits are always the problem. They're the problem. Man.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: So anyway, like I think, you know, it's great if
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: if they want to start embracing the sort of the
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: basic standards of like scientific research and evidence, then like, yeah,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: let's do it, Like let's let's see what we can
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: find here. It sort of almost reminds me when we
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: talked about like with uh with massage and the point
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: where like, you guys probably have something here, please do
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: better research, like stop selling this in the snake oil field,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: like you can do You'll be so successful in the
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: world if you've got like a legitimate treatment here, and
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: like we've got really good science to support that as evidence.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: And I think that you've got the same sort of
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: thing going on here with chiropractic medicine is like it's
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: clear there's evidence to support some of the things that
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: are happening here. Let's expand that, like, let's explore it,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: let's advance, let's help it grow, and like I'm all
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: for that. That's great, But again, like the commitment that
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: we have to have is let's do this responsibly and
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: scientifically and keep in mind the riggor and the biases
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: that we were sort of prone to in spaces where
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: we want to believe in ourselves and we know that
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: like in doing so, we can overlook some things, and
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: so it's really important to have that sort of that
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: body of people who are doing really good science. And
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: then they want, you know, the people out here, they
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: want regulations, they want oversight, they want to have quality
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: control at a high level so that people can look
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: at what they're doing and say, like, I feel confident
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: this is going to help me with the problem that
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: I have, and like, that's that's what we want. That
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: for everybody. We want that for the chiropractors, we want
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: that for the patients. That's that's a great, great place
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: to be. So that's I think where we want to
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: leave it. And understanding that, like this whole time we've
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: been ragging on what they do, and again it really
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: comes from a criticism of the original mystical vitalism that
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: started it, which is not where it needs to end up.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of medicine started in quackery, snake oil,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: and not sense and eventually it worked through those problems,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: and it looks like chiropractic medicine is on can be
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: on that same trajectory. It's just unfortunate, like a huge
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: contingent of sort of believers are really deliberately holding the
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: field back. But there is a growing movement of people
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: who are trying to push it toward a more science
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: based place to be. I guess, yeah, absolutely, Okay, that
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: was a long tangent I ended on my soapbox there.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I think you nailed it. I think you nailed it.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Though it feels good perfect. As I said, like, there's
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of research that's been done on this. The
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: vast majority of the research that you'll see in spaces
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: that supports chiropractic medicine is in like chiropractical journals, where
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: they'll accept anything that says chiropractic is good and will
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: solve all problems. But as I said, I do think
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: there is a growing push for more science based practices
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: here and they're really trying to move away from the
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: mystical thinking that has pervaded so much of this. But yeah,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: there is quite a bit of research out there. I
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: would be very wary of only taking, like you want
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: to find the journals that are doing good or risk
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: scientific sort of quality control and oversight, because a lot
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of those complimentary and alternative medicine journals, again, anything that
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: makes them look good, they will publish one. Yeah, absolutely,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: because they are already accepting that like what they do
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: works as like their starting point.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: So, I think we've said the things we need to say.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Anything else you'd like to add on here, because I
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: know you know some chiropractice personally. I know a lot
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: of people who really believe in it, and I think
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: that for them, that line between sort of magical and
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: real is so gray and so fuzzy that like they
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: can't tell what side of things they're on. Yeah, but
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: I've never I've never gone to a chiropractor. I don't
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: really know anyone personally who does that. But that's I
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: don't know what's your what's your experience there.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: I've never been to a chiropractor. I'm sure that that's
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: probably going to be when when people do write into us,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: they're like, you should go, you should try da da
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: da da. I mean to me, we just expounded on
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: why we shouldn't. Yeah, but I've got some friends who
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: are chiropractors, and you know, I think that my experience
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: has been that one of them was very just kind
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: of already very like naturalistic, like kind of nature healing
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: type of feel like she's always kind of been a
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: hippie and so like it makes sense for her to
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: end up in that space very intelligent person just and
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: both of them are very intelligent, Like I don't want
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: it to sound like they're not at all intelligent, like,
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: but one of them was kind of already like hippie
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: granola and kind of in that space, and so it
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: makes sense. It kind of like vibes, you know, together.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: The second person is like staunchly anti VACKX and staunchly
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: anti science, and it just blows my mind. And so
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: like that's one where I'm just kind of like, I
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: don't even get how we got there. So I've seen
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: a couple where I'm like, oh, but you know, for
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: the most part, like I've never been I went to
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: when I injured my back, I went to physical therapy,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: and that was a game changer, game changer, Like that
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, I love physical therapy.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the physical therapy very well established evidence based practices.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, you can confidently recommend physical therapist and
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: you will you benefit from that, like they know what
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: they're doing. Yeah, yeah, I've had the same experience. So
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: all right, very good. First, I want to say, as
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: we're transitioning to the end of this episode, the close,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: we do have some recommendations to give in case you're
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: joining us for the first time, and that's not a
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: thing you knew that we do. We like to recommend
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: some stuff, so we'll get into that after I get
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: through some credits, after we get through some more ads.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: All right, that was a fun chain of I was
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: just laying out the chain of events as they were
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: going to happen, you know what I mean.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yeah, we're giving people the agenda.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: So we did the ads part, so box checked. Step
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: two is credits. So I would like to say, if
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed what you heard today and you would like
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: to support us, we would love your support. One way
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: that you can do that that does not cost you
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: any money is you can leave a rating. If you're
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: feeling particularly generous, you can add to that rating a
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: review if you like to support us financially. You can
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: head over to Patreon. There you'll get ad free episode,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes content, early episodes, all that sort of thing,
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: and on our full length episodes, what's come out on Wednesdays.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: And then we put out short quick dive episodes on Mondays.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: We call them minis our mini Mondays. Those are two things,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: but on our full length ones, I'll read the list
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: of people who have already joined us on Patreon who
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: help us do the podcast thing, and so with great
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: admiration and appreciation, here are the list of people who
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: help make this show possible. Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara and Charlie. Thank you
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: all so much for your continued support.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: You're the best. You're the best ever.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: If you would like to tell us your thoughts on chiropractic,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: we are definitely accepting constructive criticism, feedback, additional points that
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: we missed, and other things. If you want to write
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: in and tell us about why we're wrong and why
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: chiropractic medicine will save the world, you can certainly do that.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: I won't talk to you or read it or share
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: it with anybody but knock yourself out. If it makes
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: you feel good, that is the thing that happens. We
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: do look forward to hearing from most people. I think
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: you can email us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can also reach us on the social
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: media platforms. Look forward to interacting with you there. Thank
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: you all for listening. My team of people who help
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: make this happen, writing and fact checking from Shane and myself.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for recording with me today.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Shane, Hey, thank you for having me.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: who helps us do all the audio goodness is Justin
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: who is so good at his job.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Oh he's the best, all.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Right, very good. So that means that we get to
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: move to recommendations.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Beautiful recommendations. I'm gonna recommend a book called Strange Pictures
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: by an author named Uketsu. Now this is an interesting
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: one because first, Uktsu is an anonymous YouTube personality who
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: nobody knows who this person is, nobody knows their real name,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: wears a mask on screen, has never like it's like
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: they're completely anonymous. Interesting, and this is their debut novel. Now,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: this was This was written in Japanese and then translated
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: to English, so you get a little bit of a
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: feel for that, and it's really interesting. So the story
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: is it's these interconnected stories that are related to like
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: murders and weird crimes and kind of like it's like
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: a mystery thriller type of thing. But the idea is
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: that every story is related through drawings and pictures and
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: the clues that are left in these pictures. So it's
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: not as straightforward as it it could be, Like it's
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things where it's like a really
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: interesting kind of twist and turns. There's some like time
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: jumps and stuff like that that's kind of cool. But
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: it's really really good, and it's a really quick and
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: easy read. I read it in like a day and
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: a half and it was just a lot of fun
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: to kind of like work through. If you like Japanese
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: horror and thrillers and stuff like that. It certainly has
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: a weird feel to it, like a lot of Japanese
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: literature does, but it's really it was done really well,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: especially for a debut novel. It was a lot of fun,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: So it doesn't it doesn't require Yeah, it doesn't work.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: It's not like a Murakami or like cobyl Abbe, which
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: is like really intense and really heavy duty. Like this
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: is just a lot of fun and easy to get into.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: So got it. There are a surprising number of YouTubers
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: who are turning into book authors in the world. Yeah,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: it's weird, right, it's happening. It is weird for a
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: couple of reasons. But sure, all right, great, that sounds cool.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious to check it out. I I might
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: have to borrow that for you or something, or just
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: get myself. I can afford it, all right, cool, I'm
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: recommending a movie. This is a I think it's broadly
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: classified in the horror movies, but it's a lot more
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: in the like thriller suspense. There's really not very much
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: it's not like a slasher movie. There's very little death
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: at all, very little gore. There's like some people get
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: injured and some people do die, but it's not particularly
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: gory in anyway. There's one that's a little bit gruesome
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: of a death, but I mean it's just more on
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: the sort of thriller angle like that's it's more about
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: like building tension and having to be like, Oh, what's
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: gonna happen next, and how they do that and that
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: sort of thing. Sure, anyway, it's a movie called Drop.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: This sort of falls into the category of these of
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: the sort of thriller suspense type movies where somebody is
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: kind of being held hostage in a public space and
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: they can't tell people why they're doing the things that
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: they're doing, but they're being forced to do things they
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: don't want to do and they're trying to navigate their
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: way out of that. So that's the general idea. So
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: it's called Drop, and it's currently streaming on Peacock. I
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: think that is available elsewhere. But that was a movie
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: that came out that was if you're like in the
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: market for sort of a light ish suspense movie. It's
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: not one that you are gonna like have nightmares from.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: It's just a kind of interesting idea. Yeah, that's fun.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it depends on what kind of
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: thing trigger's nightmares for people, but I don't know.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's true.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I found this on the lighter end of these
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: kinds of genre of movies, So yeah, it was it
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: was good cool.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: I like that. I'm gonna add it to the list.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: See. Well, that's what we have to say about strange
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: pictures and horror movies and chiropractors. So, as I said,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: feel free to let us know what your thoughts on
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: those things. We look forward to hearing from people. Thank
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening, thinking about team people, I
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: said all that stuff already, so I think that we
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: can wrap this one up. Is there anything you'd like
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: to add before we go ahead and sayah, goodbyes.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: Not the moment, Nope, all right.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you everyone. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: We're out.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: See ya.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do what we do.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: hope you have an awesome day.