Latest / Weeknight Mysteries Podcast / Ep. 121 | Creepy Folklore - The Knockers & Exposed The Horrors Of The Judge Rotenbe

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Ep. 121 | Creepy Folklore - The Knockers & Exposed The Horrors Of The Judge Rotenbe · Weeknight Mysteries Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: Imagine you're hundreds of meters below the ground in a
0:02
Speaker 1: dark cramped tunnel, exhausted from a day of mining tin ore.
0:07
Speaker 1: And that's when you hear it, a faint tapping sound,
0:10
Speaker 1: and it's coming from further down the tunnel. Maybe it's
0:13
Speaker 1: just your imagination, but you swear as you look down there,
0:17
Speaker 1: you can see a dark shape moving about, and even
0:19
Speaker 1: black a shadow against the darkness of the pit. You
0:23
Speaker 1: shine your lamp to get a better look, but of
0:25
Speaker 1: course there's nothing there. And yet that knocking sound persists.
0:31
Speaker 1: In fact, you swear it's getting closer. And then a
0:34
Speaker 1: series of loud knocks, seemingly on the wall right next
0:37
Speaker 1: to your head. And that's it, you've had enough. You
0:42
Speaker 1: bolt out of there, leaving your equipment behind, and you
0:45
Speaker 1: never enter the mines again. You've just had a close
0:48
Speaker 1: encounter with a knocker. A strange entity said to inhabit
0:52
Speaker 1: the tin mines of Devon and Cornwall. And I thought
0:56
Speaker 1: that as we're now in the spookiest months of the year,
0:58
Speaker 1: I'd look at some spooky stories. One of my favorite
1:02
Speaker 1: settings for a scary story is deep underground. At least
1:06
Speaker 1: when you encounter something unearthly above ground, you can usually
1:10
Speaker 1: run away, but I imagine it's a whole different matter
1:13
Speaker 1: when you're in a narrow passageway deep under the earth.
1:16
Speaker 1: The knockers or knackers of Cornish folklore are said to
1:19
Speaker 1: be grotesque humanoid creatures similar to a gnome or goblin,
1:23
Speaker 1: but they're dressed in a grim parody of traditional minor gear.
1:26
Speaker 1: Most often, though you don't see them, you just hear them.
1:31
Speaker 1: Their rhythmic knocking sounds are often seen as benevolent. Miners
1:35
Speaker 1: would follow these knocks and they would be led to
1:37
Speaker 1: rich veins of tin ore. Other times the knocking would
1:41
Speaker 1: warn of impending caveans or bad air. On other occasions,
1:46
Speaker 1: the knockers would be mischievous or even downright sinister. They
1:50
Speaker 1: were said to steal miners' equipment and sometimes the knocking
1:53
Speaker 1: would lead people into dangerous areas. In order to keep
1:57
Speaker 1: the knockers on their good side, miners would often throw
2:00
Speaker 1: the last bite of their lunch into the mine shaft
2:02
Speaker 1: as an offering. Some miners even made clay effigies off
2:06
Speaker 1: the knockers and left them in the mines. Whilst nobody
2:10
Speaker 1: really knows who the knockers were, some legends say that
2:13
Speaker 1: they're the spirits of Jewish slaves that were brought over
2:15
Speaker 1: by the Romans and forced to work in the tin mines.
2:19
Speaker 1: In the 1800s, when miners from England and Wales traveled
2:22
Speaker 1: to the USA, They took their folklore with them and
2:25
Speaker 1: so the legends of the knockers spread to the gold
2:27
Speaker 1: mines of North America, where they became known as the
2:30
Speaker 1: Tommy knockers. And of course, as it is with most
2:34
Speaker 1: good folklore, there are similar stories told by different cultures
2:38
Speaker 1: all over the world. In Germany as far back as
2:41
Speaker 1: the 16th century, miners told tales of kobolds. These were
2:46
Speaker 1: unfriendly gobbling-like creatures that lived in the rocks. They made
2:50
Speaker 1: a distinctive knocking sound when nearby and they were trick
2:53
Speaker 1: miners into digging what looked like valuable metal ores, but
2:56
Speaker 1: it would release toxic fumes when smelted. They referred to
3:00
Speaker 1: this strange blue metal as cobalt ore. This is how
3:04
Speaker 1: the chemical element cobalt got its name. It was the
3:08
Speaker 1: presence of cobalt in these ore and the arsenic fumes
3:10
Speaker 1: that it released when smelted that gave it its notorious reputation.
3:15
Speaker 1: Similar to the Cornish knockers, German miners would leave offerings
3:19
Speaker 1: and this time gold and silver in hopes of appeasing
3:21
Speaker 1: the cobalt. In Ukraine they have this chubin, a ghostly
3:26
Speaker 1: spirit that, depending on which story you hear, is either
3:29
Speaker 1: a protective entity that warns miners of dangers and leads
3:32
Speaker 1: lost men to the surface, or it's an evil spirit,
3:35
Speaker 1: leading men to their dooms and causing terrible accidents. Another
3:39
Speaker 1: one from Slavic mythology is the kazovek, small, gnome-like creatures
3:44
Speaker 1: that inhabit mines. Once again, these can be protective or
3:48
Speaker 1: dangerous depending on whether you get on their good side
3:51
Speaker 1: or not. They will warn miners of danger and lead
3:54
Speaker 1: them to rich veins of rock if pleased. They are
3:58
Speaker 1: offended by people whistling or throwing rocks and will cause
4:01
Speaker 1: caveats or push people into deep pits if they get angry.
4:05
Speaker 1: Peru has the Muki, a sort of goblin elf-like creature
4:08
Speaker 1: that lives underground and wears mining gear. It often helps
4:12
Speaker 1: human miners by softening rock, making it easier to dig
4:16
Speaker 1: or warning them of dangers. But they can also cause
4:19
Speaker 1: caveans and other disasters if they're pleased. There are tales
4:24
Speaker 1: of miners making deals with the Muki by giving them
4:26
Speaker 1: coca leaves and alcohol in exchange for their help. In
4:30
Speaker 1: the mines of Cerro Rico in Bolivia, they've built many
4:33
Speaker 1: effigies to an entity that they call LTO. This demonic-looking
4:37
Speaker 1: creature is, again, either protective or destructive depending on whether
4:41
Speaker 1: the miners can gain its favor. Each day, the miners
4:45
Speaker 1: will leave offerings of alcohol, cigarettes, and coca leaves for
4:49
Speaker 1: LTO in the hope of gaining its protection. Villages will
4:53
Speaker 1: regularly slaughter a llama and offer its heart to LTO
4:56
Speaker 1: in order to further curry his favor. Despite this, around
5:00
Speaker 1: 14 men die every month in the Cerro Rico mines.
5:05
Speaker 1: Even in the UK, We have multiple versions of these
5:08
Speaker 1: underground entities. Wales has the Booker or the Coblin Eye.
5:13
Speaker 1: This is another short goblin-like creature that leads miners to
5:16
Speaker 1: veins of metal or with its distinctive knocking sound. Their
5:20
Speaker 1: pits of northern England have the blue cap. This is
5:24
Speaker 1: a creature that appears as a blue flickering light in
5:27
Speaker 1: the darkness and leads miners to rich veins. It would
5:30
Speaker 1: also push heavy coal-laden carts to the surface. An account
5:35
Speaker 1: in the Collory Guardian of 1863 states that a blue
5:38
Speaker 1: cap was considered such a valuable worker that a full
5:41
Speaker 1: miner's wages were left for it every fortnight in one
5:44
Speaker 1: corner of the mine. A similar but more sinister entity
5:48
Speaker 1: also inhabited the northern mines. He was called Cutty Soames.
5:53
Speaker 1: This creature was known for playing tricks on miners and
5:56
Speaker 1: hindering their work. He particularly liked cutting through ropes when
6:00
Speaker 1: they were left unattended. And so we can see many
6:03
Speaker 1: similarities in these stories. The idea of the creatures being
6:08
Speaker 1: both helpful and harmful, the leaving of offerings to appease them.
6:12
Speaker 1: Even the size and shape of these beings are similar
6:15
Speaker 1: across many cultures. So is there any rational explanation behind
6:20
Speaker 1: these stories? Well, minds are just eerie places at the
6:24
Speaker 1: best of times. Not that I'm binning one. but I've
6:28
Speaker 1: read enough minor stories to know that being in the
6:30
Speaker 1: true darkness of a mind causes the other senses to heighten.
6:34
Speaker 1: Every quiet sounds become amplified. You become aware of any
6:38
Speaker 1: minute changes in the atmosphere. On top of that, I've
6:42
Speaker 1: heard people say that the weird acoustics of the pits
6:45
Speaker 1: mean that noises from far away can sound much closer
6:48
Speaker 1: than they are. Someone digging in the distance can appear
6:51
Speaker 1: to be coming from just around the corner. Footsteps can
6:55
Speaker 1: echo so it sounds like someone is walking behind you.
6:59
Speaker 1: It's very easy in this situation for your imagination to
7:02
Speaker 1: run wild. Add to that the fact that mining can
7:06
Speaker 1: be a dangerous job, the knowledge of past minus deaths
7:09
Speaker 1: and the fears for your own safety can only add
7:11
Speaker 1: to this unwieldy atmosphere and set your nerves on edge.
7:15
Speaker 1: It's only natural in this situation for strange stories to occur,
7:19
Speaker 1: especially in the past when they had children working down
7:22
Speaker 1: the mines. Another explanation I've heard is that the rocks
7:26
Speaker 1: and support beams in a mine can make a distinctive
7:28
Speaker 1: banging sound just before a cave-in. This might explain why
7:32
Speaker 1: some thought the knuckers were thumping on the wall to
7:35
Speaker 1: warn them of impending danger. It doesn't tell the whole
7:38
Speaker 1: story though. One thing I wonder is why do so
7:42
Speaker 1: many stories speak of these strange little men? Surely if
7:46
Speaker 1: it was all just in your imagination, you could imagine
7:48
Speaker 1: any type of creature, but everyone seems to see the
7:51
Speaker 1: same goblin-like beings. Now I can understand why there are
7:55
Speaker 1: so many similar reports in places like Germany, Wales and England.
8:01
Speaker 1: After all, a lot of our folklore stems from the
8:03
Speaker 1: same Germanic mythology, but how come these little men have
8:06
Speaker 1: been seen in places like Peru? Perhaps there's more to
8:10
Speaker 1: these stories than mere superstition. In Robert Hunt's book Popular
8:14
Speaker 1: Romances of the West of England published in 1865, he
8:18
Speaker 1: says that miners don't like the sign of the cross
8:20
Speaker 1: being made underground. and there was a time when somebody
8:23
Speaker 1: drew a cross on the wall as a marker and
8:25
Speaker 1: he was told by the other miners to change it
8:27
Speaker 1: to something else. This he links to the reports of
8:31
Speaker 1: seeing little demons and imps underground. Again, I'm reminded of
8:36
Speaker 1: the Bolivian miners, who, despite being devout Catholics above ground,
8:40
Speaker 1: entrust their lives to a demonic entity below ground. But
8:44
Speaker 1: it be that these underground realms are home to something
8:47
Speaker 1: far older than our ancient mythologies and religions, something primal,
8:51
Speaker 1: lodged deep in the collective consciousness of all humans. Maybe
8:56
Speaker 1: it's man's encroachment into these places, as we dig away
8:59
Speaker 1: the eons old rock that somehow breathed life into this
9:02
Speaker 1: primal memory. As mining modernized it brought with it electric lights, ventilation,
9:07
Speaker 1: and noisy machinery, and so the old superstitions of the
9:11
Speaker 1: past slowly faded away. But not completely. Still there are
9:16
Speaker 1: reports of miners seeing strange inexplicable things down beneath the earth,
9:20
Speaker 1: weird lights and noises that defy any rational explanation. I'll
9:25
Speaker 1: leave you with a few stories from the book present
9:27
Speaker 1: in the pit compiled by Brian Lung. This is a
9:30
Speaker 1: collection of reports from miners mostly in northern England of
9:34
Speaker 1: the weird things they've seen in the pits. The first
9:37
Speaker 1: one is titled The Conveyor of Change and is written
9:40
Speaker 1: by an anonymous source. It says, two of us were
9:43
Speaker 1: riding the belt out at Mark and me and Snowy.
9:47
Speaker 1: We were both exhausted. The belt was wet and muddy
9:51
Speaker 1: and the girders hung low so we had to lie
9:53
Speaker 1: down in a black, sticky wet mess. I dreamt of
9:57
Speaker 1: a cold foaming pint in the club. I'd just make
10:00
Speaker 1: last orders, God willing. Suddenly something happened which had a
10:05
Speaker 1: life-longer effect on me. Out of nowhere, just in front
10:09
Speaker 1: of us, something rushed across the conveyor belt. It was
10:13
Speaker 1: a shape that was too hard to make out as
10:15
Speaker 1: it went so fast but it also glowed and as
10:17
Speaker 1: it dashed over in front of our noses, They came
10:20
Speaker 1: with it the most haunting, shrill, what I'd describe as
10:23
Speaker 1: a scream as it passed by. They're nothing. I quickly
10:27
Speaker 1: turned to Snowy and he just lay there, eyes and
10:30
Speaker 1: mouth wide open. Then almost together both of us in
10:34
Speaker 1: unison said and I'll keep it clean, what the hell
10:36
Speaker 1: was that? Walking to the showers afterwards, me and Snowy
10:41
Speaker 1: just kept looking at each other and shaking our heads.
10:44
Speaker 1: Snowy went long term sick and through stress related issues
10:48
Speaker 1: never worked there again. He swears it had nothing to
10:51
Speaker 1: do with the encounter but I'm sure it had everything
10:54
Speaker 1: to do with it. As for me, I carried on
10:57
Speaker 1: working there but refused to ever ride a conveyor belt again.
11:01
Speaker 1: So the next story is titled The Haze and it
11:03
Speaker 1: was written by Chris Campbell. There's just a bit of
11:06
Speaker 1: background first, joined the 1980s at the Prince of Wales
11:10
Speaker 1: pit in Pontefranc where I served 10 years before leaving
11:13
Speaker 1: the industry. There was a terrible period of about two
11:17
Speaker 1: years where unfortunately about half a dozen men were killed
11:20
Speaker 1: in various accidents, all in the Castle Food Forefoot and
11:23
Speaker 1: Warren House seams. A lot of weird activity went on
11:27
Speaker 1: down there. Men claimed to have seen apparitions, heard voices
11:32
Speaker 1: when there was no one else down there at the time,
11:34
Speaker 1: being painted a floor at snap time and not being
11:37
Speaker 1: able to stand up. The list was endless, nobody ever
11:41
Speaker 1: admitted to experiencing anything due to the endless ridicule you
11:44
Speaker 1: got in the pit. To comply with mining regulations, disused
11:48
Speaker 1: seams in districts of the pit where the airflow was,
11:51
Speaker 1: were still required to be examined every 24 hours, so
11:55
Speaker 1: a deputy had to do the long walk around those areas.
11:58
Speaker 1: One night, and it was always night where anything happened,
12:02
Speaker 1: a deputy called Jimmy H. went on the long walk.
12:05
Speaker 1: About two hours after he set off, suddenly he appeared
12:09
Speaker 1: in a state of neopanic at the bottom of the
12:11
Speaker 1: south intake drift. He was sweating and shaking and covered
12:15
Speaker 1: in muck and everyone asked, what the hell happened to
12:17
Speaker 1: you Jimmy? He then replied that he'd seen a ghost
12:21
Speaker 1: or as he described it a glittering cloud on the
12:23
Speaker 1: Warren House scene triangle, the three-way junction. He said that
12:27
Speaker 1: it had materialized into the shape of something possibly human-like.
12:32
Speaker 1: Jimmy was known for his love of an afternoon session
12:34
Speaker 1: at the local working men's club and at the time
12:37
Speaker 1: everyone put it down to him having had one too
12:39
Speaker 1: many in the club before he came to work. but
12:41
Speaker 1: I was there at night and I saw the state
12:43
Speaker 1: he was in, he was definitely not acting. This is
12:47
Speaker 1: the story about my experience. When I became a pit deputy,
12:51
Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, we had to examine all the
12:54
Speaker 1: underground districts, including the disused ones which were being used
12:58
Speaker 1: for ventilation. I read the route at the sea which
13:01
Speaker 1: district I was covering that shift, I'd copped for zone 2B.
13:06
Speaker 1: I got off the train at the castle for the
13:07
Speaker 1: 4 foot level, All the land on the train were
13:10
Speaker 1: going crazy and saying, ooh, watch out for a ghost,
13:14
Speaker 1: so me being me acting all brave, I tell them
13:16
Speaker 1: all to F off. Finally the train rumbles on down
13:20
Speaker 1: the drift and I'm there all on my lonesome. I
13:23
Speaker 1: went through the steel air doors and with a clang
13:26
Speaker 1: I was in total and utter darkness until I got
13:28
Speaker 1: to places lit where the conveyor belts were running. Eventually
13:32
Speaker 1: I reached the triangle, the three-way junction where Jimmy had
13:35
Speaker 1: had his experience all those years before. I got to
13:39
Speaker 1: the east return stopping where the workings had been exhausted
13:42
Speaker 1: and the tunnel bricked up with breeze blocks. As I
13:46
Speaker 1: walked towards it there was a ventilation sheet known as
13:48
Speaker 1: a brattus hung up to disperse any gas fired the
13:51
Speaker 1: ventilation flow. I ducked under the brattus to the right
13:55
Speaker 1: hand side, then I saw what I can only describe
13:57
Speaker 1: as the breeze blocks shimmering. The best I can describe
14:01
Speaker 1: it is like on a very hot day when you
14:03
Speaker 1: look onto the road ahead and the heat makes the
14:05
Speaker 1: road appear to be shimmering from side to side. I
14:09
Speaker 1: ducked back under to the other side and all was
14:11
Speaker 1: normal so I ducked under again, the apparition was still there,
14:15
Speaker 1: sorry retreated. Okay, I thought to myself, this has to
14:19
Speaker 1: be gas or a trick of the light. I was
14:22
Speaker 1: armed to the teeth with gas testing equipments, I tested
14:25
Speaker 1: the atmosphere again but there was again nothing, no gas
14:28
Speaker 1: readings at all. So then I got a bit brief
14:32
Speaker 1: or stupid and I ducked under the bratus again. Sure
14:35
Speaker 1: enough the shimmering cloud was still there, so me being
14:38
Speaker 1: me I think, well I am tough, I am about
14:41
Speaker 1: to run the door so I ain't scared. So I
14:44
Speaker 1: walked towards this apparition but as I got nearer the
14:47
Speaker 1: apparition became more animated or agitated and the breeze blocks
14:51
Speaker 1: on a stopping wall seemed to start really swirling about.
14:54
Speaker 1: I then walked a bit closer to it maybe 20
14:57
Speaker 1: feet away but then it started to seem much more
14:59
Speaker 1: aggressive and it was like in a 3D effect so
15:01
Speaker 1: that was it, I lost my bottle and I did one.
15:05
Speaker 1: I admit I probably bottled it and I reversed out sharpish.
15:09
Speaker 1: Kin Hill I trapped myself and imagine a bloody thing
15:12
Speaker 1: jumping out on me at every junction I got to
15:14
Speaker 1: but thankfully it didn't. But this experience still bugs me
15:18
Speaker 1: to this day as it's got to be the same
15:20
Speaker 1: glittering cloud that Jimmy saw all those years before. The
15:24
Speaker 1: last story is called The Day That Changed My Life
15:27
Speaker 1: and it's written by Anon. This is probably the most
15:31
Speaker 1: far-fetched story that you could read in this book. Well
15:34
Speaker 1: maybe to you the reader but certainly not to myself.
15:38
Speaker 1: I should have had a long fruitful career down the
15:40
Speaker 1: pit doing a job I fell in love with. However
15:44
Speaker 1: one particular cold winter's night has changed everything so here goes.
15:49
Speaker 1: I devolonteered for the midnight till 8am overtime shift. I
15:53
Speaker 1: was on my own and I was checking the pumps
15:55
Speaker 1: on the drift and several hundred yards in by and
15:58
Speaker 1: a few unused back roads. As they made my way
16:01
Speaker 1: wearily along the low hanging road I walked with a
16:04
Speaker 1: stoop as I was wary of the low girders. I
16:07
Speaker 1: pondered having a bite to eat early and I figured
16:10
Speaker 1: there was no one around to stop me why not.
16:13
Speaker 1: I poured out a cup of what we called minus tea.
16:16
Speaker 1: It was black, no milk, plenty sugar. Until a company
16:21
Speaker 1: had a crushed banana sandwich with a generous sprinkling of sugar.
16:25
Speaker 1: After several minutes my cap lamp flicked then it kicked
16:28
Speaker 1: in again randomly. I breathed the sigh of relief. If
16:33
Speaker 1: my cap lamp failed I was in a pitch black
16:35
Speaker 1: world with just a faint glow from my safety lamp.
16:39
Speaker 1: I set off up a roadway that was no longer
16:41
Speaker 1: used but it did house one of the pumps. Unburned
16:45
Speaker 1: notes to me at the time I would never make
16:46
Speaker 1: this trip again. What happened next still keeps me awake
16:50
Speaker 1: at night to this day. I have no shame in
16:53
Speaker 1: meeting that I have flashbacks, panic attacks and random uncontrollable
16:58
Speaker 1: bouts of weeping. My lamp flicked again and I felt uneasy.
17:03
Speaker 1: I know I need to check this pump and get out.
17:06
Speaker 1: Trying to keep myself distracted I hummed to myself then
17:09
Speaker 1: sang lowly but the echo from my voice just made
17:11
Speaker 1: things worse. As I strained my eyes to look overhead
17:15
Speaker 1: of me I could see a shape. A shape that
17:18
Speaker 1: shouldn't really be there. It was a dark, shapeless shape
17:22
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. It was not a minor. It
17:27
Speaker 1: couldn't be. I know I was down there all alone.
17:31
Speaker 1: Besides there was no light coming from his lamp. The
17:35
Speaker 1: shape was gently moving towards me. The sweat was running
17:39
Speaker 1: down my face. I almost froze. I was totally focused
17:44
Speaker 1: on this shape moving towards me and suddenly it seemed
17:47
Speaker 1: to stop and then this is difficult to even type.
17:50
Speaker 1: There was the most terrifying, loud, ear piercing, eerie, high-pitched
17:55
Speaker 1: scream and totally unexpected the shape rushed towards me and
17:58
Speaker 1: straight through me. I felt strange to be honest. I
18:03
Speaker 1: can't really explain what I felt. I turned around to
18:06
Speaker 1: see where this shapeless thing went. I couldn't see anything anywhere.
18:12
Speaker 1: It was gone. I staggered out to the cage. I
18:16
Speaker 1: didn't speak to the on-sitter. I grabbed the shower. I
18:21
Speaker 1: just couldn't comprehend what had happened. To be truthful, I
18:25
Speaker 1: don't think I'll ever recover from that day. The very
18:28
Speaker 1: next day I handed in my notice. I didn't offer
18:32
Speaker 1: any explanation. I just quit. I never wanted to set
18:37
Speaker 1: eyes on that place again. One thing that strikes me
18:40
Speaker 1: about these stories is how reluctantly I ought to speak
18:43
Speaker 1: about them. Most of the tales in this book end
18:46
Speaker 1: with them saying something like, they didn't tell their workmates
18:49
Speaker 1: about the sighting for fear of being ridiculed. It makes
18:53
Speaker 1: me wonder if such sightings were more common than we
18:56
Speaker 1: think and what sort of things have been seen that
18:58
Speaker 1: haven't been reported. Sadly, I haven't found any reports that
19:02
Speaker 1: describe those goblin-like creatures of old legends. I'll put a
19:06
Speaker 1: link to that book, Presence Interpreter, in the description. It's
19:11
Speaker 1: fairly short, but there's a good few stories in there
19:14
Speaker 1: that gave me the creeps, so check it out if
19:16
Speaker 1: you're into that sort of thing. I've not been sponsored
19:19
Speaker 1: to chill that book or anything, I just quite like it. Okay,
19:24
Speaker 1: and that's pretty much all I've got to say on
19:26
Speaker 1: the subject. I know most people probably subscribe for the
19:30
Speaker 1: true crime type of content, but hopefully you don't mind
19:33
Speaker 1: me indulging in some spooky stuff now and then. It's
19:37
Speaker 1: his disease enough, they're all. In 1948, the psychologist B.
19:42
Speaker 1: Skinner published a novel called Walden 2. It tells the
19:46
Speaker 1: story of a utopian commune called Walden 2 that uses
19:50
Speaker 1: behavioral engineering to ensure that its members always act in
19:53
Speaker 1: a way that benefits the community. In this utopia, children
19:57
Speaker 1: are psychologically conditioned through positive reinforcement from a very young age.
20:03
Speaker 1: This conditioning eliminates negative emotions like jealousy and frustration. and
20:07
Speaker 1: they grow up with no desire for personal fame, power
20:10
Speaker 1: or wealth, and they work only towards the betterment of
20:13
Speaker 1: the group. The result is a happy and well-adjusted community
20:17
Speaker 1: of people who do a four-hour work day, then spend
20:20
Speaker 1: the rest of the day doing whatever intellectual pursuits or
20:23
Speaker 1: leisure activities take their fancy. The problem is nobody at
20:27
Speaker 1: the commune has any free will, and their actions are
20:30
Speaker 1: all psychologically predetermined, but the book argues that free will
20:33
Speaker 1: might not exist at all. We might feel that we're
20:37
Speaker 1: free to act however we choose, but our environment and
20:40
Speaker 1: upbringing means that we're already psychologically predetermined to take one
20:44
Speaker 1: course of action in any given situation. We only have
20:48
Speaker 1: the illusion of choice. If this is the case, then
20:51
Speaker 1: why not? Condition people to always make the best decisions
20:55
Speaker 1: for society at large. It's an interesting idea on paper,
21:00
Speaker 1: but what would happen if you tried to create your
21:02
Speaker 1: own world and two in real life? Would it be
21:05
Speaker 1: the utopia that Skinner imagined? In 1950 a man named
21:10
Speaker 1: Matthew Israel, a freshman at Harvard College, took a class
21:13
Speaker 1: in human behavior to get his science credit. This human
21:17
Speaker 1: behavior course was taught by none other than B.F. Skinner,
21:20
Speaker 1: the author of Walden II. This is Dr. B.F. Skinner,
21:25
Speaker 1: professor of psychology at Harvard. His area of particular interest
21:29
Speaker 1: is behavior. Skinner, what are you doing with this pigeon?
21:34
Speaker 1: I'm going to demonstrate a fundamental principle of behavior. The
21:38
Speaker 1: operator is quite simple, but the principle is far reaching.
21:43
Speaker 1: Not only in explaining the behavior of pigeons, but in
21:46
Speaker 1: analyzing human behavior. In the presence of a green light,
21:50
Speaker 1: attacking this bird pays off. In the presence of a
21:54
Speaker 1: white light, attacking the bird does not. There is a
21:58
Speaker 1: possibility that we can construct some kind of world of
22:00
Speaker 1: the white light in which no one is reinforced for
22:03
Speaker 1: being aggressive and the just a possibility that in that
22:05
Speaker 1: case we wouldn't have the problem of aggression to deal with.
22:09
Speaker 1: The book wasn't part of the reading list for the course,
22:12
Speaker 1: but Matthew Israel decided to give it a read anyway.
22:15
Speaker 1: He became captivated by Skinner's utopian vision. Matthew Israel was young, impressionable,
22:22
Speaker 1: and idealistic. He didn't really know what he wanted to
22:26
Speaker 1: do with his life except that he felt strongly that
22:28
Speaker 1: he wanted to make a difference in the world. Walden
22:31
Speaker 1: too showed him the path forward. He decided there and
22:35
Speaker 1: then that he wanted someday to make Skinner's utopia a reality.
22:40
Speaker 1: Matthew Israel went on to major in psychology. After graduating,
22:45
Speaker 1: he began to put his plans for a Walden 3
22:47
Speaker 1: interaction and he started a network with like-minded people. In 1967,
22:53
Speaker 1: he started his first commune. This was a small house
22:57
Speaker 1: with six or seven people living in it. One of
23:00
Speaker 1: the occupants was a three-year-old girl with some severe behavioral problems.
23:05
Speaker 1: Matthew Israel tried to change her behavior by using positive
23:08
Speaker 1: reinforcement and mild punishments like timeouts, but none of these
23:12
Speaker 1: seemed to work. Then one day out of frustration, he
23:16
Speaker 1: slapped the child across the face and he noticed an
23:19
Speaker 1: immediate change in her behavior. she became calm and obedient.
23:24
Speaker 1: And here we see an immediate deviation from Skinner's vision
23:27
Speaker 1: in Walden 2. At the end of the novel, Walden
23:31
Speaker 1: 2's creator points out that punishment can't be used as
23:34
Speaker 1: a long-term solution for behavioral control. He uses the example
23:39
Speaker 1: of sheep behind an electrified fence and says, punishment, negative reinforcement,
23:44
Speaker 1: the threat of pain, it's a primitive principle of control.
23:48
Speaker 1: So long as we keep the fence electrified, will have
23:51
Speaker 1: no trouble, provided the needs of the sheep are satisfied.
23:55
Speaker 1: But if we relent, trouble is bound to arise sooner
23:58
Speaker 1: or later. In Walden 2, they don't use any physical
24:02
Speaker 1: punishments and only achieve their aims through positive reinforcement. In
24:07
Speaker 1: the real world, however, Matthew Israel found negative reinforcement to
24:11
Speaker 1: be extremely effective in modifying people's behavior. It turns out
24:16
Speaker 1: the stickers are more effective motivator than the carrot. He
24:19
Speaker 1: continued to use the face slap technique on the child,
24:23
Speaker 1: teaching him to follow his commands and control her outbursts.
24:27
Speaker 1: And according to him, he had amazing results. Matthew Israel's
24:32
Speaker 1: utopian commune lasted less than a year. He tried to
24:35
Speaker 1: start another one, but that didn't work out either, so
24:38
Speaker 1: instead in 1971, he opened the Behavior Research Institute in Providence,
24:43
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. This was a special school for children with
24:47
Speaker 1: developmental disorders. They took in a lot of severely disabled students,
24:52
Speaker 1: nonverbal autistic kids and people with schizophrenia. It was small
24:57
Speaker 1: at first and just a handful of students, but very
25:00
Speaker 1: quickly they expanded operations, opening branches in Massachusetts and California.
25:06
Speaker 1: The school was organized very much like Walden II. The
25:10
Speaker 1: employees lived communally with the objective of creating a self-sustaining economy.
25:15
Speaker 1: As the institute grew, Matthew Israel found that the running
25:19
Speaker 1: of the school was more satisfying than building a commune.
25:22
Speaker 1: A lot of his utopian ideas were abandoned, but still
25:26
Speaker 1: many aspects of Walden II's vision remained, most notably the
25:29
Speaker 1: modification of people's behavior through various control programs. Unlike Walden II, however,
25:36
Speaker 1: the use of pain and negative reinforcement was very much
25:39
Speaker 1: a part of their behavior modification program. Psychologists called them aversives,
25:45
Speaker 1: unpleasant stimuli designed to induce changes in behavior. Much like
25:50
Speaker 1: that three-year-old girl getting slapped in the face, students at
25:53
Speaker 1: the Behavior Research Institute were subjected to various aversives. At
25:58
Speaker 1: first the punishments were fairly simple, a slap or a pinch,
26:01
Speaker 1: forcing students to inhale smelling salts or spraying them with
26:05
Speaker 1: cold water. As time went on, the institute refined their
26:09
Speaker 1: methods and came up with increasingly harsh ways to punish
26:12
Speaker 1: the children in their care. Food at the institute was
26:16
Speaker 1: carefully controlled. Students on the food program would need to
26:20
Speaker 1: avoid certain behaviors in order to earn the food for
26:22
Speaker 1: the day. On some programs, students that misbehaved would have
26:27
Speaker 1: their food mashed up and sprinkled with liver powder to
26:29
Speaker 1: make it taste disgusting. On the most restrictive program, misbehaving
26:34
Speaker 1: students would simply go hungry. The use of restraint and
26:38
Speaker 1: sensory deprivation was also common, as a punishment students might
26:42
Speaker 1: be tied spread-eagle to a board or made to wear
26:45
Speaker 1: a helmet that cuts off their vision and blasts white
26:47
Speaker 1: noise in their ears. Many later refined the white noise
26:51
Speaker 1: helmet to also spray the student's face with a mist
26:54
Speaker 1: of cold water. Parents that bring their children to the
26:57
Speaker 1: Behavior Research Institute do have to sign a form allowing
27:00
Speaker 1: the use of these aversives before these punishments can be administered.
27:04
Speaker 1: but many parents of Simp's comfort decided they didn't understand
27:07
Speaker 1: the full extent of what they were signing their children
27:09
Speaker 1: up for. As time went on, parents, former students and
27:14
Speaker 1: workers at the institute started to come forward with stories
27:17
Speaker 1: about the horrors that have been inflicted on the children there.
27:20
Speaker 1: For example, in 1978, one former worker said that she'd
27:24
Speaker 1: seen Matthew Israel pinching a 12-year-old disabled boy's feet, so
27:28
Speaker 1: much so that the bottom of his feet were covered
27:31
Speaker 1: in oozing sauce and blisters. The boy's father heard about
27:35
Speaker 1: this mistreatment and he took his son out of the
27:37
Speaker 1: institute and went to see a doctor. The doctor found
27:40
Speaker 1: that the boy covered in bruises all over his body
27:43
Speaker 1: and his feet were a mass of bloody holes as
27:45
Speaker 1: if the skin had been pulled off in multiple places.
27:48
Speaker 1: The following year, the New York Office of Developmental Disabilities
27:52
Speaker 1: sent a team of people to the Behavior Research Institute
27:55
Speaker 1: for a surprise three-day investigation. The report they found concluded
28:00
Speaker 1: that it was one of the singular most depressing experiences
28:03
Speaker 1: that the team members had had in numerous visits to
28:05
Speaker 1: human service programs. They said that the students at the
28:09
Speaker 1: institute had their lives so regimented that they appeared robotic
28:12
Speaker 1: and inhuman. Each student was given a long list of punishments,
28:17
Speaker 1: each one to be inflicted by a staff member for
28:19
Speaker 1: the most minor of behaviors. Things like rocking in your seat,
28:24
Speaker 1: raising your hands to your head and making noises. For
28:27
Speaker 1: these infractions, they might be pinched, slapped, given a cold shower,
28:32
Speaker 1: sprayed with water in the face or put in the
28:34
Speaker 1: white noise helmet for 15 minutes. It was also found
28:38
Speaker 1: that staff members were encouraging the students to carry out
28:41
Speaker 1: these problem behaviors just so they could administer the punishments.
28:45
Speaker 1: And this apparently was all part of the programs. Students
28:49
Speaker 1: needed to learn that certain behaviors would result in punishments
28:52
Speaker 1: and so it was important to repeat the punishment cycle
28:55
Speaker 1: as much as possible by goading them into performing certain actions.
28:59
Speaker 1: This meant that students were being punished hundreds of times
29:02
Speaker 1: every day. As a result of the investigation, New York
29:06
Speaker 1: State restricted the Institute's use of aversives. Now they could
29:11
Speaker 1: only be used when the student was likely to cause
29:13
Speaker 1: serious physical danger to himself or others and only after
29:16
Speaker 1: positive reinforcement had been proved ineffective. These regulations only applied
29:22
Speaker 1: to students that had been placed there from New York.
29:25
Speaker 1: The restrictions were also so open to interpretation that they
29:28
Speaker 1: had little effect on the Institute's use of aversives. The
29:32
Speaker 1: punishments continued almost renovated. In 1981, a 14-year-old autistic boy
29:36
Speaker 1: named Danny Sward died at the Behavior Research Institute. At
29:43
Speaker 1: the time of his death, he was restrained face down
29:46
Speaker 1: on his bed. It was later determined that he died
29:49
Speaker 1: of natural causes due to a cerebral malformation, but the
29:52
Speaker 1: institute was placed on a two-year probation and the California
29:56
Speaker 1: Department of Social Services started another investigation into the facility.
30:00
Speaker 1: The California report contained a laundry list of disturbing malpractices.
30:06
Speaker 1: On one occasion during the period September 3 to December 15, 1980,
30:11
Speaker 1: Matthew Israel instructed the staff member to grow his fingernails
30:14
Speaker 1: longer so he could give an effective pinch. Such pinches
30:18
Speaker 1: were administered with the fingernails and caused excessive and unnecessary
30:22
Speaker 1: cuts and bruises. On or about March 1, 1981, Richard L.
30:27
Speaker 1: was restrained in a large black chair by himself in
30:30
Speaker 1: the kitchen. Richard's hands were tied to the chair, his
30:34
Speaker 1: feet were tied to the bottom of the chair, and
30:36
Speaker 1: a huge box covered his head and torso. He was
30:40
Speaker 1: kept in this position for at least one hour. In
30:43
Speaker 1: or about February 1980, it was confirmed that Willie R.
30:47
Speaker 1: is a deaf child and his parents so notified the respondent.
30:51
Speaker 1: Respondent failed to modify Willie's program and continued to inflict
30:55
Speaker 1: water squirts and corporal punishment upon Willie in context where
30:58
Speaker 1: it was unlikely if not impossible that Willie could understand
31:01
Speaker 1: the behavior he was required to exhibit to avoid punishment.
31:06
Speaker 1: For example, Willie received water squirts for not responding to
31:09
Speaker 1: verbal commands to keep his eyes closed while in bed.
31:13
Speaker 1: On or about February 1981, Eric K. was deprived of
31:17
Speaker 1: meals up to three times a week. On occasion during
31:21
Speaker 1: the period from September through December 1980 and for an
31:24
Speaker 1: unknown period of time before and after that month, Richard L.
31:27
Speaker 1: was placed in the backyard of the facility by himself
31:30
Speaker 1: whilst in restraints. Respondent fed Richard L. when he was
31:34
Speaker 1: in the yard by placing a plate of food on
31:36
Speaker 1: the ground with no eating utensils. Ricky would have to
31:40
Speaker 1: eat with his arms restrained to his science. When Carl
31:44
Speaker 1: was placed in isolation, the respondent would not allow anyone
31:47
Speaker 1: to speak to Carl for 24 hours. He would be
31:51
Speaker 1: restrained in the classroom behind boxes until 11 p.m., then
31:55
Speaker 1: he would be tied to a piece of furniture in
31:57
Speaker 1: a living room in a kneeling position to sleep. On
32:00
Speaker 1: these occasions he would be deprived of a bed, pillow
32:03
Speaker 1: and blanket. Respondent instructed its employees to dress residents in
32:08
Speaker 1: long pants and long-sleeved shirts to prevent relatives and other
32:11
Speaker 1: visitors from seeing the bruises and the abrasions resulting from
32:14
Speaker 1: pinches and spikes. As a result of this investigation, The
32:19
Speaker 1: Behavior Research Institute was banned from using aversives in its
32:22
Speaker 1: California branch and Matthew Israel was banned from entering the facility.
32:27
Speaker 1: In 1983 however, the Massachusetts Office for Children gave the
32:31
Speaker 1: Behavior Research Institute official permission to use physical punishment. The
32:36
Speaker 1: Massachusetts branch had an open-door policy and they would take
32:39
Speaker 1: in any kid no matter how bad their behavior. As
32:43
Speaker 1: a result many severely autistic children from all over the
32:46
Speaker 1: states as well as out-of-state students from New York started
32:49
Speaker 1: getting shipped off to Matthew Israel's Institute. The Behavior Research
32:54
Speaker 1: Institute in Massachusetts continued to grow accumulating wealth and political
32:58
Speaker 1: influence along the way. In 1985 another death, a 22-year-old
33:03
Speaker 1: autistic man named Vincent Melitish had a seizure whilst wearing
33:07
Speaker 1: a sensory deprivation helmet and he died of his fixation.
33:11
Speaker 1: Although the school and staff members were found negligent Vincent's
33:14
Speaker 1: mother didn't press charges, she did however sue the center
33:17
Speaker 1: for $ 10 million. After Vincent's death the Massachusetts State Center
33:22
Speaker 1: for Children attempted to shut down the Behavior Research Institute
33:26
Speaker 1: but Judge Ernest Rottenberg of the Family Court intervened and
33:29
Speaker 1: kept the institute open. A number of parents had petitioned
33:33
Speaker 1: Judge Rottenberg to keep the facility open. He visited the
33:37
Speaker 1: center himself and he was given a tour. He claims
33:40
Speaker 1: he was moved by how well the students were treated
33:43
Speaker 1: and how effective those treatments were. He argued that closing
33:47
Speaker 1: down the center was like playing a Russian roulette with
33:49
Speaker 1: the students' lives. Thanks to his intervention their facility remained open.
33:55
Speaker 1: In 1988 a new form of punishment was introduced to
33:58
Speaker 1: the institute. The Self-Injurious Behavior Inhibiting System or SIBIAS for short.
34:05
Speaker 1: The Sibia's device is worn on the body and it
34:07
Speaker 1: detects any impact of the head and delivers an electric
34:10
Speaker 1: shock to the wearer. It was made for disabled children
34:13
Speaker 1: who engage in behavior like hitting themselves in the head
34:16
Speaker 1: or butting their head against the wall. The electric shocks
34:20
Speaker 1: are designed to be uncomfortable but not overly painful. Each
34:24
Speaker 1: time the child bangs their head they get a small
34:27
Speaker 1: shock and hopefully learn to stop that behavior. This device
34:31
Speaker 1: was used at the institute with some success but Matthew
34:34
Speaker 1: Israel noticed that the shocks became less effective over time.
34:38
Speaker 1: The students eventually got used to the device and continued
34:41
Speaker 1: to exhibit problem behavior. This was exemplified in the case
34:45
Speaker 1: of Brandon Sanchez. He was an autistic student who has
34:49
Speaker 1: made a sit in a chair wired up to the
34:51
Speaker 1: Sibius and keep his hand on the switch. If he
34:54
Speaker 1: let go of the switch the device would shock him
34:56
Speaker 1: every second. This device was ineffective. Brandon kept taking his
35:02
Speaker 1: hand off the switch. In a single day he received
35:06
Speaker 1: about 5,000 shocks without any improvement with behavior. Matthew Israel
35:11
Speaker 1: decided he needed something stronger. Initially he contacted the manufacturers
35:16
Speaker 1: of the Sibias and he asked them if they could
35:18
Speaker 1: build a device that delivered a stronger shock but they
35:21
Speaker 1: refused and so he designed his own. The Graduated Electronic
35:25
Speaker 1: Decelerator for GED. The Sibias delivered a shock of 3.5
35:30
Speaker 1: milliamp hours which is about the same strength as a
35:33
Speaker 1: commercial stun gun and the shocks lasted 0.2 seconds. Matthew
35:38
Speaker 1: Israel's GED device delivered a shock of 15.5 milliamp hours.
35:44
Speaker 1: This was more than 4 times stronger than the Sibias
35:47
Speaker 1: and each shock lasted a full 2 seconds. I'm glad
35:51
Speaker 1: it's over. It has no detrimental effects whatsoever. It hurts though.
35:58
Speaker 1: It's intended to hurt and if it didn't hurt it
36:00
Speaker 1: wouldn't be effective. Students were forced to wear the GED
36:04
Speaker 1: 24 hours a day. At any moment a staff member
36:08
Speaker 1: could press a button on a remote control and deliver
36:10
Speaker 1: an excruciating shock to the student's arms, legs or belly.
36:15
Speaker 1: Bear in mind once again that these punishments were dished
36:17
Speaker 1: out for the most minor of behaviors. Not content with
36:21
Speaker 1: his new torture device in 1992 Matthew Israel developed the
36:25
Speaker 1: GED for This was for students that had been shocked
36:29
Speaker 1: so many times by the GED that they'd gotten used
36:32
Speaker 1: to the pain. The GED-4 delivered a 90 milliamp hours shock.
36:38
Speaker 1: It was strong enough to burn and blister the skin
36:40
Speaker 1: and it was way beyond the pain threshold that most
36:43
Speaker 1: adult humans can endure. In 1994 the school moved all
36:47
Speaker 1: of its operations to Massachusetts. The state where they had
36:51
Speaker 1: the most freedom to punish the children in their care.
36:55
Speaker 1: They also changed the institute's name to the Judge Rottenberg
36:58
Speaker 1: Educational Center. This was in honor of Judge Ernest Rottenberg
37:02
Speaker 1: who played a key role in keeping the school open
37:05
Speaker 1: after the death of Vincent Militish. Over the following 10
37:09
Speaker 1: years or so there were multiple attempts to get the
37:11
Speaker 1: institute shut down or to stop their use of electric
37:14
Speaker 1: shocks but nothing ever seemed to stick. Former residents kept
37:18
Speaker 1: coming forward with horror stories and long-lasting mental health problems.
37:23
Speaker 1: One student was left with PTSD-length symptoms. They would get
37:28
Speaker 1: flashbacks every time they heard the sound of Velcro because
37:31
Speaker 1: it reminded them of the straps that they used to
37:33
Speaker 1: fix the GED in place. One student was left with
37:37
Speaker 1: severe insomnia after staff shocked it in the middle of
37:40
Speaker 1: the night while she was sleeping. It was not explained
37:43
Speaker 1: to me why I got this shock. I was terrified
37:47
Speaker 1: and angry. I was crying. I kept asking why and
37:52
Speaker 1: they kept telling me no talking out. After this incident
37:56
Speaker 1: I really stopped sleeping. Every time I closed my eyes
38:00
Speaker 1: they would jump open, anticipating that jolt somewhere in my body.
38:04
Speaker 1: In 2002 this case was filmed. It shows 18 year
38:09
Speaker 1: old autistic man Andre McCollins tied to a board being
38:12
Speaker 1: repeatedly electrocuted. The first shock was administered because he refused
38:17
Speaker 1: to take off his coat. Subsequent shocks were administered because
38:21
Speaker 1: he was screaming out in pain and tensing up his body.
38:25
Speaker 1: Not only are the students tortured but they have to
38:27
Speaker 1: endure the torture in silence or receive more torture as punishment.
38:32
Speaker 1: Andre was shocked a total of 31 times. The following
38:36
Speaker 1: day his mother took into the hospital. He was treated
38:40
Speaker 1: for third degree burns. He was unable to speak and
38:44
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with acute stress disorder. In 2007 a former
38:49
Speaker 1: student made a prank call to the Judge Rottenberg Educational
38:52
Speaker 1: Center pretending to be a supervisor. He convinced staff members
38:56
Speaker 1: to administer electric shocks to two teenage students in the
38:59
Speaker 1: middle of the night. One student received 29 shocks. The
39:05
Speaker 1: other received 77 shocks and afterwards had to be treated
39:08
Speaker 1: for second-degree burns. Six members of staff were fired after
39:13
Speaker 1: this incident but the school retained its license to administer
39:16
Speaker 1: shock treatments. Eventually this did lead to Matthew Israel being
39:20
Speaker 1: charged with child end engagement obstructing justice and acting as
39:24
Speaker 1: an accessory after the fact. As part of his plea
39:28
Speaker 1: deal he had to step down from running the Judge
39:30
Speaker 1: Rottenberg Center but it continued to operate under new management
39:33
Speaker 1: and its use of painful aversives remained very much in place.
39:38
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be until 2020 that the FDA decided to
39:41
Speaker 1: ban the use of these aversive electroshock devices. They were
39:45
Speaker 1: banned in the treatment of self-injuring or aggressive behavioral disorders
39:49
Speaker 1: but they did remain legal for other aversive therapies like
39:52
Speaker 1: helping people to quit smoking. The only problem with this
39:56
Speaker 1: is it left a loophole in the law. The U.S.
39:59
Speaker 1: Code states that the FDA is forbidden from limiting or
40:02
Speaker 1: interfering with any healthcare practitioner in prescribing or administering any
40:06
Speaker 1: legally marketed device. As the device remained legal in some
40:10
Speaker 1: circumstances the FDA would either have to issue a blanket
40:14
Speaker 1: ban on these devices or allow medical practitioners to continue
40:17
Speaker 1: using them. As far as I can tell this means
40:20
Speaker 1: that the GET is still in use and the Judge
40:22
Speaker 1: Rottenberg Center continues to operate to this day. Parents, ex-residents
40:28
Speaker 1: and various human rights groups still campaign to get the
40:30
Speaker 1: center shut down. And just to give some balance there
40:34
Speaker 1: are parents and ex-residents that advocate for the center remaining open.
40:39
Speaker 1: Despite the brutality of some of its methods there are
40:41
Speaker 1: those that claim that the Judge Rottenberg Educational Center really
40:45
Speaker 1: did help them. On this case I am focusing on
40:48
Speaker 1: the very worst controversy and I'm not giving a full
40:51
Speaker 1: picture of life at the center. It's not all punishment.
40:55
Speaker 1: Students are also given rewards and positive reinforcements and it
40:59
Speaker 1: does seem to work for some people. It's really a
41:02
Speaker 1: question of whether the ends justify the means. Some of
41:06
Speaker 1: these methods would seem out of place in Guantanamo Bay
41:09
Speaker 1: and yet they're being used on disabled children. And that's
41:13
Speaker 1: the problem with utopian thinking. A person who believes that
41:17
Speaker 1: they're creating the perfect world can justify committing all sorts
41:20
Speaker 1: of atrocities in pursuit of that utopia. The real torture
41:24
Speaker 1: is what these children are subjected to if they don't
41:27
Speaker 1: have this program. They're drugged up to their gills with
41:30
Speaker 1: drugs that cause them to be so sedated that they
41:32
Speaker 1: essentially sleep all day or they end up in state
41:35
Speaker 1: institutions or warehouse or in jails. Our apologies for this
41:40
Speaker 1: case taking a while to get out. Sometimes the research
41:44
Speaker 1: takes a bit longer so if there are a spend
41:46
Speaker 1: a time on it then rush out a half-assed video.
41:49
Speaker 1: Hopefully that shows in the final products. I do appreciate
41:53
Speaker 1: the help and thanks for being patient. Here's some more
41:57
Speaker 1: recordings you might enjoy and you can check them out
41:59
Speaker 1: now or look out for me in your recommended in
42:01
Speaker 1: the future.