Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 17: Where I End And You Begin

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AM S2 Ep 17: Where I End And You Begin · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
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  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: identity,
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  SPEAKER_01: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
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  SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children despite all odds.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode,
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  SPEAKER_01: Rose and I explore the complexities of vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_01: connection,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: and boundaries in parenting,
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  SPEAKER_01: particularly in the context of estrangement and attachment.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Rose reviews the Neufeld model,
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  emphasizing the importance of understanding primal emotions
• 0:53
  related to separation
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  SPEAKER_01: and the necessity of self-care for parents.
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  Our dialogue delves into the challenges of witnessing
• 1:00
  self-destructive behavior in
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  children and the significance of setting healthy boundaries
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  while maintaining a
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  SPEAKER_01: connection.
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  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately,
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  SPEAKER_01: the conversation highlights the intricate interplay between attachment,
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  SPEAKER_01: maturation,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the emotional landscape of parenting.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back, everyone.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Last episode.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're picking up a bit where we left off last episode,
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  SPEAKER_00: which,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: as listeners who listen to it will be aware that was
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of sharing of some of my own personal story and a very vulnerable.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had contacted you afterwards,
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  SPEAKER_00: like 24 hours after saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: I am feeling some vulnerability hangover.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I hope, you know, that in the
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  SPEAKER_00: in the grand scheme of things or in the small details that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: some of that was helpful to our listeners.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the feedback I've received, Rose, is that it was.
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  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
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  From the audience,
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  you know,
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  thank you for being willing to share all that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  I feel like stories are so critical to connecting with one
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  another and to really
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  SPEAKER_00: bringing to life,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: these concepts that we talk about in abstract ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the theory is helpful.
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  SPEAKER_00: All of it is important,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I think when we really see it through someone's personal experience,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's just a richness there that you can't get otherwise,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think.
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  SPEAKER_00: And for people to not feel alone, you know, or that all is lost.
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  SPEAKER_00: All is not lost.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: All is not lost.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're all so very human.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, and this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  These waves that we ride,
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  you know,
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  this journey that we're on,
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  we're on it,
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  in it together.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's painful.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Along the way for all of us.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And I think,
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  you know,
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  you're going to explain why separation is so scary.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, as listeners, as we're getting started today, you know...
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  SPEAKER_00: Today's going to be an interesting weave, so to speak, I think.
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  Last episode was focused on this conversation around
• 3:56
  estrangement and parents
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  SPEAKER_00: initiating boundaries,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is part of the job of a parent,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether the child is little or medium or grown or an adult.
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  SPEAKER_00: We are...
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  SPEAKER_00: As humans and in that role,
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  SPEAKER_00: in that relationship as a parent,
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  SPEAKER_00: boundaries are just totally integrated,
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  SPEAKER_00: totally a part of everyday interactions,
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  SPEAKER_00: as well as kind of the bigger picture of...
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  SPEAKER_00: of that act of relating to a child or relating to another.
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  And so we're going to continue that conversation and revisit
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  some of what we
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  SPEAKER_00: actually dove into at the very end of last episode.
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  SPEAKER_00: We did not put it into the final recording, but
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  SPEAKER_00: For multiple reasons.
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  SPEAKER_00: One was that it got too long.
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  And another was that it's such a delicate topic and complex
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  topic and one that we
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  SPEAKER_00: want to treat with great care.
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  SPEAKER_00: This, you know, digging in deeper to like, are there times...
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  when a parent accompanying an adult child or an older child who
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  has chosen to
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  SPEAKER_00: medically transition,
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  SPEAKER_00: when the weight of something like that becomes too much for us to bear,
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  SPEAKER_00: for a parent to bear,
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  SPEAKER_00: and how do you...
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  SPEAKER_00: respect your own needs,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: which may need some distance for a time,
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  SPEAKER_00: without,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: pushing your child into more separation that could,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: cause repercussions that you,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: don't want for your child.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you navigate this complex terrain?
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  SPEAKER_00: And so, you
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  some of what got cut from that last part of our conversation
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  was diving back into
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  SPEAKER_00: attachment and separation.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're going to start today,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  hoping as like continuing the thread of last week where we left
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  off and wanting
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  SPEAKER_00: listeners to know that we want,
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  we intend today to continue that conversation and speak more to
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  these different
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  SPEAKER_00: scenarios and dynamics at play around parents initiating boundaries and,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: dancing along this very charged topic of estrangement.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in order to do that well,
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  we're also going to kind of reorient ourselves around what
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  we've been talking about
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  SPEAKER_00: in this whole season,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is this larger Neufeld model of...
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  of this attachment-based developmental approach where we're
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  looking at what are the
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  SPEAKER_00: conditions that lead to human flourishing,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that seed,
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  SPEAKER_00: that acorn becoming the oak tree.
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  SPEAKER_00: And sort of taking the next step on that journey.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we started off with maturation,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: just to reorient our compasses here a little bit.
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  Where are we on that map when we talk about the Neufeld model
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  of development development?
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  SPEAKER_00: We started with maturation,
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  SPEAKER_00: the emergent process,
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  SPEAKER_00: the adaptive process,
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  SPEAKER_00: the integrative process.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's in the background today as we're talking about these topics.
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  SPEAKER_00: We moved on to vulnerability and the defenses.
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  So understanding those layers of perceptual defense,
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  emotional defense,
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  attachment defense.
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  how those sensitivities being overwhelmed can lead to the
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  defenses locking in to
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  SPEAKER_00: protect us from wounding.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's too much to bear.
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  And then there's a lot of behavioral manifestations that we
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  might just see that
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  SPEAKER_00: surface,
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  SPEAKER_00: that tip of the iceberg of behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: But underneath, if we dig deeper, the root is in the defenses.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  So that's kind of where we traversed leading up to these kind
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  of more tender conversations.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was going to be a Q&A, but we didn't get questions.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we said,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey,
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  SPEAKER_00: what are the themes that we can draw upon that we know are out there,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we hear from people that come up again and again?
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where we kind of ended up...
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  in the past two episodes before this one,
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  was in digging into some of those deeper themes.
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  SPEAKER_00: So with all of that in mind,
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  before we kind of continue this conversation on boundaries and
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  estrangement,
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  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to sort of lead us into...
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  the beginnings of the final and third aspect of the Neufeld
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  model,
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  which is attachment.
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  SPEAKER_00: And for our longtime listeners,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  this will be something that will sound familiar because we
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  really dedicated a lot
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  of our first season of this podcast to unpacking and unfolding
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  the Neufeld approach
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  SPEAKER_00: to attachment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  and I want folks to know that today we're just going to kind of
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  lay the bare bones
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  of some of this out and we're going to keep coming back to it
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  in the weeks to come.
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  But we do want to set the stage around it at least briefly
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  today as we continue to
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  SPEAKER_00: discuss the themes around boundaries.
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  So this will be a bit of a review of that attachment
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  information because we agree
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  SPEAKER_01: that it's incredibly foundational and
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  And that understanding how this works in the system is
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  important when you are going
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  SPEAKER_01: to determine and set boundaries,
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  SPEAKER_01: your personal boundaries,
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  SPEAKER_01: when it comes to your relationship with your adult children.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  Yeah,
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  so just very,
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  as briefly as I can be,
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  which is I'm never actually brief,
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  I try.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'll go more into this, but Neufeld...
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  SPEAKER_00: draws his model and definition of attachment from tons of theorists,
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  SPEAKER_00: and not just attachment theorists.
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  SPEAKER_00: He also,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  one of the interesting parts about his background is he was
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  actually a science,
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  SPEAKER_00: he has a science background,
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  SPEAKER_00: so physics,
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  SPEAKER_00: chemistry,
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  SPEAKER_00: biology.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of his theoretical scope or the foundations of his model,
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  SPEAKER_00: he includes so much beyond the traditional,
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  he includes the traditional attachment theorists like Bowlby
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  and Harlow and all of
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  SPEAKER_00: these names of the past,
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  SPEAKER_00: the object relations people,
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  for all the nerds out there who like know these theoretical
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  backpinnings of what
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  SPEAKER_00: would be classical attachment theory.
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  SPEAKER_00: But he also takes it from the natural sciences.
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  He also takes it from work around love,
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  around the nature of social relationships.
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  SPEAKER_00: He calls them the blind sages,
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  all these people who observed and witnessed these aspects of
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  attachment manifesting
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  itself in human society and relationship without necessarily
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  calling it that.
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  And where he comes to in terms of a definition is just a drive
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  or a relationship
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  SPEAKER_00: characterized by the pursuit and preservation of proximity.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the pursuit of closeness.
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  SPEAKER_00: to be near someone, to be connected to someone.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is that drive, that pursuit of closeness.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he, you know...
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  SPEAKER_00: It's,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember this really grabbing me when I first started,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: diving into this material many years ago.
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  It's just like he talks about like atoms and elements and,
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  you know,
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  gravity.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: he takes it to this like,
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  SPEAKER_00: just,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: this incredibly humbling and awe-inspiring place where it's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: We would not be alive if it weren't for the force,
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  SPEAKER_00: these forces at all these levels of even science and our matter,
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  SPEAKER_00: chemistry,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: that pull us together.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of like the breadth of his vision,
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  the broadness of his vision around that attachment is
• 13:31
  preeminent to our existence.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's preeminent to all that exists, including human beings.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just interviewed Adam Jacobs from the Feed Your Head Substack,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I love this phrase that I took from him,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the remarkable intelligence of life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's achingly beautiful.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld can see attachment from biology,
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  SPEAKER_00: chemistry,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: physics,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then in terms of,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: species,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can find it in plants,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can find it in animals,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can find it,
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  SPEAKER_00: and of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: in humans.
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  You know,
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  we use that analogy,
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  or he uses the analogy,
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  and with his six...
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  stage model of attachment of those roots of a plant digging
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  into the ground,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_00: That's attachment,
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  the roots of a plant connecting with the soil and receiving
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  nutrients through that
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  SPEAKER_00: relationship in order for that plant to grow,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: just to kind of give this broader picture of like,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: whoo,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's so big and it's so it's so essential to like so much,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: all of our existence that we it's so easy to just not see it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's like his life's work,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: is like helping us to name it,
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  SPEAKER_00: helping us to see it and therefore understand what's going on,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's for children or the children in our care or for ourselves.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And I'm hearing this more conscious relationship with our
• 15:22
  feeling states and
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: knowing how to interpret them,
• 15:26
  understand what's happening so that we can approach what's
• 15:31
  happening with some
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: skills,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:34
  In a sound and productive way so that we can start to
• 15:37
  experience something different.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, that's what's going on here.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've gotten quite far away from being able to do that.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: how Neufeld lays this out is essentially,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: to understand attachment,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: some basics.
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  SPEAKER_00: Contact and connection is our preeminent need.
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  And he argues that this surpasses even physical hunger on the
• 16:13
  hierarchy of needs.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: when there's a natural disaster,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: what's the first thing you're looking for?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're looking for food?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're looking for your loved ones.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Where are my loved ones?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 16:25
  And he also points out that things like attention are driven by
• 16:31
  attachment needs.
• 16:35
  So again,
• 16:35
  when we say,
• 16:36
  oh,
• 16:36
  that's what's going on here,
• 16:38
  just understanding that.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Where are my eyes pointing?
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  SPEAKER_00: What am I looking at?
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  SPEAKER_00: What am I drawn in by?
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  SPEAKER_00: What am I focused on?
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  SPEAKER_00: Where's my attention going?
• 16:49
  For better or for worse,
• 16:51
  what's being engaged in this act of attention is attachment
• 16:56
  needs.
• 16:59
  Okay,
• 16:59
  the seek to connect and be close or that drive to connect and
• 17:03
  be close.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's on the one hand.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: kind of the flip side of that coin,
• 17:11
  therefore facing separation from that contact and closeness is
• 17:17
  our preeminent
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  SPEAKER_00: threat.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Terrifying.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, yep.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the separation is either experienced or it can just be
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can also be a narrative, if that makes sense.
• 17:33
  Like one person can be experiencing it in a relationship where
• 17:37
  the other person is not.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this is usually based on past experiences, your attachment, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: The quality of your attachment.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: when we are facing or anticipating,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's just that level of anticipation or,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: feeling threatened by the possibility,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: of experiencing separation and this conscious or unconscious,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: like this is the thing here,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: we might not even be aware that that's what we're experiencing,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: that we're facing separation.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even know that's what's going on for us.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if that is what is underneath and moving us,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: once that facing separation is there,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to evoke these primal separation emotions.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we've covered these before,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: but I think they're really important to kind of go over once again.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And those three primal emotions when we're facing separation is pursuit.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when we're moved to restore proximity.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's right there in his definition, right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: That attachment is the pursuit and preservation of proximity.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're facing separation,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: moment of separation,
• 19:15
  that pursuit's going to just get clicked right in because we
• 19:18
  want to close that
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: gap.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: We want to restore the proximity.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Restore the closeness.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: The other one is alarm.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And alarm,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: when we are not defended against it,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: this is all when we're not defended against these things.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: is going to move us to caution, okay?
• 19:41
  It's going to move us to caution and move us to avoid
• 19:45
  separation that alarms us.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third separation of emotion is frustration.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And frustration we've covered,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: a lot when we talk about futility,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: aggression,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: the adaptive process,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: all of that.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: But frustration is going to move us to try to affect change.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And in this context, to fix the separation.
• 20:10
  So whatever the problem is that's causing the separation,
• 20:14
  we're going to be moved to fix it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: So identifying the problem correctly is going to be important.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So just to say two more things...
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: if futility is encountered and felt,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: the child can adapt,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: or the adult in this case,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: can adapt to the separation being faced.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of one of the possibilities here when we're facing separation,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: when these primal emotions are evoked is,
• 20:50
  You know,
• 20:52
  futility is one of the possible ways that we work through them.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: That adaptive process.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: However, if the separation itself becomes unbearable...
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: the defenses are going to be evoked.
• 21:12
  And that's going to be in order to reduce this profound sense
• 21:17
  of vulnerability,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:19
  on any of these three primal emotions or just the woundedness
• 21:24
  experienced,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: the defenses are going to be evoked if it becomes too much to bear.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the behavior comes into play.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: The behavior that is... Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is the entire intensive two at the Neufeld Institute.
• 21:43
  I'm just telling you that is like a 15 week course is all about
• 21:47
  what he calls the
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: separation complex.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: These, this, this is it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what do we call it?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes I don't use vocabulary terms correctly,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: like this existential experience,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: like it is part of being alive in the world.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to face separation.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is no avoiding this.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to take on a different shape or,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or form for all of our lives, throughout our lives.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to show up in different ways.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not going to avoid this experience, okay?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Our children are not going to avoid these experiences.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of being human.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 22:27
  But when those defenses get locked in around this experience of
• 22:33
  facing separation,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: that's when the complex sets in.
• 22:37
  And that's when you're going to see all of these problems
• 22:41
  manifesting that we see
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: as either diagnoses or behaviors.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 22:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: So in that class,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: he puts these three emotions,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: facing separation at the center,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: the three emotions,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: and then he overlays all these diagnoses over the screen.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what is underneath this?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's the defenses getting locked in and all the repercussions of that.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you say this is just an integral part of the human experience.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: We will all face separation.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it is ultimately tied to our purpose in this lifetime.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: which is to achieve that secure attachment.
• 23:37
  I did have a conversation with Lisa Morris at the Estrange
• 23:42
  Network or Estrange Network.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, you know, essentially we're all estranged from ourselves.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Mm, mm, mm.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's really the work here.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this is probably a topic for another day,
• 24:01
  but I just wanted to highlight that and to maybe notice how
• 24:06
  much damage this
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: separation complex is wreaking on the world right now.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: my hope is to go,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: continue talking about it,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: in the,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: in the next few episodes,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: just using like alarm as one example,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: and then I want to kind of take us back to our boundaries conversation,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: but just to kind of
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: follow this thread for just a little bit more.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: When we see that kind of facing separation as the central,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: what can happen is,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: what Neufeld talks about is like,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: we're staring into the sun.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: that sometimes what can happen is like the deepest fear of separation,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: let's say it's rejection from a mother or father,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: rejection from a parent.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, that most primal attachment or fear of death, right?
• 25:11
  That most fundamental separation is like,
• 25:14
  we're all going to die,
• 25:16
  you know?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So some of those...
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: The deeper, the more primal, the bigger it is.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: We can't stare into the sun.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: You and I, we can't go outside and just stare directly in the sun.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: It will burn our eyes out.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's too much.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes what ends up, we cognitively, we...
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: it goes on to something else.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Fear of spiders.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: My older son, he's very bent towards alarm.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so throughout my experience parenting him,
• 25:52
  he's had different stages of what is the thing that the alarm
• 25:56
  just hooks onto.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of what this
• 26:03
  model has helped me with is to not focus on the fear of it's
• 26:07
  not throwing up you
• 26:08
  know of course he's afraid of throwing up but like the deeper
• 26:11
  piece is like you
• 26:13
  know there's something deeper going on underneath it that you
• 26:17
  know this is so
• 26:17
  Jungian really very Jungian yes yeah okay yeah cool okay so
• 26:24
  become diseases phobias
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: diagnoses yeah right
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And when you just say it's... It's a way to explain it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:35
  And it's a way to bring it to consciousness so we can do
• 26:37
  something about it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: But when you talk about staring at the sun,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: he would say that like the pure God archetypes,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: they're too much.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can't look at them.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're too powerful.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so the same goes for this, the deepest, most primal...
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: sense of our existence through attachment, you know.
• 27:05
  The most terrifying separations are ones that we are just going
• 27:09
  to have to filter.
• 27:11
  Our brain is going to filter us,
• 27:13
  is going to protect us from staring directly into them.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're going to show up in these different ways.
• 27:22
  And those of us who are here on this podcast and diving into
• 27:26
  this material,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: what we can,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: where we kind of started the conversation...
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: what's going on here?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: We can have this greater insight into,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: it's not really about that phobia or it's not really about that thing.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: This, my child or myself, I am facing separation.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: These primal emotions are being evoked.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is what's going on underneath.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when we talk about that,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: how to get bigger then,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: that's really where that image comes from for me in this model is
• 28:00
  is that no matter what then gets fragmented or fractured out of
• 28:05
  the defenses,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: that extra layer of that complex,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: how do we hold it all for that child?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Even as we see it manifesting in this brokenness,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: in this behavior,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: in this diagnosis,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it may be,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: how do we see the bigger,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: see the whole thing and say,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've still got you.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've still got this.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, boy.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is at the center is the separation.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so that the work is there.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: The work is there.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to stop there and just... Yeah.
• 28:49
  So pre-episode,
• 28:51
  you and I,
• 28:51
  or pre-recording,
• 28:52
  you and I talked about the...
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: some things I wanted to make sure that we address.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so with that in mind,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think how to tackle,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: how to come back to this idea of estrangement and tackle these themes,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: scenarios that I encounter.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And my work with parents who have trans identified kids.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And a big one.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would say two.
• 29:17
  There are two that I wanted to make sure we address and talk
• 29:22
  about how they relate
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: to parents setting boundaries and taking care of themselves.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: One is estrangement.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a buzzword.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is terrifying.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is terrifying.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: what you were describing.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's separation.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it is,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: when parents are facing estrangement,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: it is going to put you into those primal emotions.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's very straightforward, right?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, there it is.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: The anticipation or the lived experience.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is like the most or the emotional.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: We talked last episode.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: The emotional separation, the intellect, the cognitive, you know.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: If your worldviews are different, there's separation there.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or the physical, the actual no contact.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is the most primal separation imaginable.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems ubiquitous right now.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's everywhere.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's everywhere.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: People are encouraging others to go no contact.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Therapists are often encouraging people to go no contact.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: and this to me sounds like the opposite of getting bigger than,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:48
  and actually growing through whatever painful relational issues
• 30:54
  are on the table at
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: the moment.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And a way to avoid, right?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's avoidance.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it is what it is.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are many legitimate reasons that kids do go no contact.
• 31:11
  I think it's often used as emotional manipulation,
• 31:14
  you know,
• 31:15
  and so I think we need to...
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is part of the boundaries conversation.
• 31:22
  I think we can get really confused around what boundaries are
• 31:26
  and what they aren't.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think we confuse other things with boundaries.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So let's... So that was one theme.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one I'm going to say is witnessing...
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: self-harm.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to decide which one to tackle first.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you start with boundaries?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Estrangement.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing that I see,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: and you and I have talked about this in other ways before,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: but I want to come at it through this lens of facing estrangement.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that parents, some parents will do whatever it takes, right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like estrangement is not an option.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to do whatever it takes to keep my kid close.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And in doing so, they will abandon themselves.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: They will spend time with their child.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:32
  And what is happening in their experience is a sense of
• 32:37
  obligation or a sense of resentment.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's just this constant, I'm not enjoying myself.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am doing this because I have to,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: because this is what I've got to do to not be estranged,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: is I have to put myself in situations I don't want to be in.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what I'm supposed to do.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the parent, and this is what I have to do.
• 33:06
  And it results in all these feeling states that are saying,
• 33:09
  it shouldn't be like this.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't feel good.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: What they're doing doesn't feel good.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Because maybe their child treats them poorly or maybe it is too
• 33:25
  hard to witness
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: physical changes because their child has chosen them otherwise,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:33
  and that it can be really hard to be present and delight in
• 33:40
  your child when you
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: just truly don't delight in them right now.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then is it really,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: first off,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: is it accomplishing that,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: what you're trying to provide for that child,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is that sense of I'm always here?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: just what is getting communicated in that dynamic to the kiddo,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: but also to the parent who,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: is abandoning themselves,
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about boundaries in a minute, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I've done some digging to find a good definition.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the word is boundary.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is defining where I end and you begin, right?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where I end and the other begins.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: What is me?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is you?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then the boundaries that we set are to define ourselves, right?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: They are self-love.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is how you take care of yourself and
• 34:44
  And honor your limits and your values and provide that sense of
• 34:51
  distinction.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is where the language can get tricky.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: We are separate beings from each other.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this is part of the maturity model.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about the emergent process.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think many parents are enmeshed.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have a distinct sense of self separate from the child.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And boundaries are how you create that, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so what do you do when you just truly don't enjoy your kid right now?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Whether whether it is due to a separation complex,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: that that is creating this,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: odious behavior that is so difficult to be around.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I think oftentimes it's it's our own.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's our own stuff that is creating this.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:52
  And there are some ways to even explore that so you know
• 35:55
  whether this is boundary
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: stuff that needs,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: is this boundary work that is necessary?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And is this boundary work potentially going to create some separations?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Am I going to need to back off so that I can do my own boundary work,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: my own work,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: to not be estranged from myself?
• 36:20
  Because that is going to make it – I'm not available for my kid
• 36:24
  if I'm estranged from myself.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:31
  So this is where we're talking about that sort of parent
• 36:33
  initiating boundaries,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: and I think when we,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is where the languaging and what you see is so important.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: That does not, I think estrangement is such a scary word.
• 36:52
  You know,
• 36:54
  it implies this sort of finality,
• 36:57
  you know,
• 36:57
  it's this complete absence of connection.
• 37:02
  And like you said,
• 37:05
  that is going to put us into these primal emotions,
• 37:10
  you know.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so this gets super, super messy.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 37:16
  When you were first talking about like the do whatever it takes
• 37:19
  to keep my kid
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: close,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: it's like it's so interesting because as you lay all of this out,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:26
  I see this like it's almost like there's two potential sides to
• 37:30
  everything you're
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: saying,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is like, where are you coming from now?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of that alpha provider versus the seeker,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: like how much does that posture,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: determine whether you are
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: doing,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: engaging and prioritizing the relationship with your child to,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: help them feel safe and be able to be vulnerable,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: like work on that attachment angle for their,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: their,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: because you're
• 38:15
  Wanting them to have those needs met versus are you in more of
• 38:23
  that seeking to get
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: your own attachment needs met through?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm using my hands here,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: and this is an audio podcast,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: where are you in that dynamic?
• 38:39
  And I think that that's going to determine the energy that's
• 38:43
  moving you and the
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: energy that's being,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: because the opposite energy is then going to come from your child,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in that provider role and that warm alpha provider role,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: which is also a role that needs to set boundaries.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to be,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: it could be very messy if your child's locked into alpha themselves.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's going to be, you know, that is going to be hard.
• 39:16
  But,
• 39:17
  you know,
• 39:18
  the idea with attachment being hierarchical is like the
• 39:21
  opposite instincts.
• 39:26
  So if you're in there in that seeker position trying to make
• 39:30
  everything work to
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: avoid estrangement,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: but you're in the subservient role or like that,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Then the energy that's going to be reciprocated is going to be the elf,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: kind of that could be a bossy alpha,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: a demanding alpha,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: all of those instincts are going to be just coming from the child.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you recognize when that?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first thing that just jumps out to me.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:01
  That's the first thing that jumps out to me because being
• 40:04
  bigger than if you're in
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: that alpha role,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: you are going to,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: be aware of,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: meeting the needs of your child because you want to stay close,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: because you want to.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you really there's a.
• 40:16
  There's two different potentials for all of the things that you
• 40:19
  are laying out.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what I'm wondering.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the alpha that determines how this is playing out?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say if you are in this situation,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: that's probably a good indicator that you're not an alpha.
• 40:34
  If this is the way that you are experiencing being in your
• 40:36
  child's company and doing it anyway.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And doing it anyway.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is so important,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Rose,
• 40:49
  because I think we are dealing with parents who aren't
• 40:53
  necessarily getting their
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: attachment needs met.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:59
  I think you and I come around and around to the same place of
• 41:02
  how do you do that?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do that?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is self-love.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Boundaries are part of it, like you said, right?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: Boundaries are part of it.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think recognizing when that's the dynamic,
• 41:24
  when your attachment needs are not being met and you're seeking
• 41:27
  them from your
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: child,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: and then being able to do that work.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that might mean take some space.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And taking space does not equal estrangement, or does it?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is where our words are so powerful.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's why we needed to cut out part of the last episode.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's because we landed here.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is there ever a time when it's okay for the parent to estrange?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and this,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:14
  should we stay here or bring in this other scenario that I
• 42:18
  think is also boundaries
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: related?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let's bring it in.
• 42:24
  And then come back to this idea of is there ever a time or can
• 42:28
  we reframe it
• 42:29
  potentially so that it seems less scary and something that can
• 42:35
  be a productive
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: strategy,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: or approach to something.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we,
• 42:42
  I can't remember if we cut this out or we talked about it in an
• 42:45
  episode or not,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Rose,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: but the idea of witnessing your child's self-destructive behavior.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: potentially even having it happen under your own roof.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And how many parents liken this to a heroin addiction.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Would you allow your kid to shoot up in your house?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you allowed to put a boundary around that?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when it's taking a toll on your health to witness it.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:21
  when it requires you to abandon yourself,
• 43:24
  to have that happening in your house.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I just, I don't have an answer.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just, my heart is just very...
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: just goes out to the parents who are in that situation.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because you are in this place of having to navigate,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: like if we talk about that separation complex,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: and we can,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:55
  maybe we don't know what all of these different chains of
• 44:01
  events or experiences or
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: cognitive explanations,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: like what did the brain hook onto,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: to say,
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: the pursuit is going to be this pursuit of changing my body,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: this pursuit of being the opposite sex,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: this pursuit of the features or the physical changes.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: We don't
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know, you know, and maybe we never will.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what was, what were all the factors?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: But yet,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: we're called to see this as part of,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:41
  the fracturing of attachment or the defenses coming from that
• 44:47
  core experience of
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: facing separation.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: let's just say, as a possibility.
• 44:53
  So part of what we're called to do as that alpha provider is to
• 44:57
  be bigger than the
• 44:58
  whole thing and be able to hold it and still love and be
• 45:04
  connected to our child.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying this,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: this is part of,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: like...
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: it brings to mind that image of your dad holding your brother.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, which I think we cut out of the recording.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, did we?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cause yeah.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I was telling the story.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't end up including this in last episode.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think, um,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: But with the drug addiction thing,
• 45:33
  it was – so one of my brothers has struggled with addiction
• 45:38
  since he was a
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: teenager.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's in his 40s now.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: he's gone back to live in my parents' house at different – you know,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: one time in his life,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: they kind of gave him refuge.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: from things that were falling apart.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then, you know, he got married, moved out.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and, uh, but he still has struggled with addiction.
• 46:04
  And there was some time in the past few years when I was aware
• 46:08
  he was trying to get
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: sober and I'd never talked to my parents about this,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: but I've always known,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: my brother's always confided in me about it.
• 46:18
  And I've had this,
• 46:19
  you know,
• 46:19
  longstanding,
• 46:20
  you know,
• 46:22
  I've always wanted to save him.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've always wanted to save him.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've had messy boundaries.
• 46:27
  Like this is actually,
• 46:28
  you know,
• 46:31
  he's not my child,
• 46:32
  but he's my younger brother.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:37
  there has been some messy experiences because of this drive
• 46:43
  that I have to save
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: him.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: But he's his own person.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: and and so I'm talking to my parents about,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: one of these more recent experience of him trying to get sober.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this is when my dad is after healing my estrangement with my father.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we have you know, we're kind of catching up on old times, you know.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: he then shared with me,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: that my brother's wife at some point,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: over the years when,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: which we weren't,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: my father and I were not speaking to each other,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 47:24
  my brother's wife had called him to their house when my brother
• 47:28
  was going through withdrawal.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And my brother was shaking and my dad just held him.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad tells me this and I am like floored emotionally.
• 47:42
  You know,
• 47:42
  I'm like right now I'm like the tears are welling up telling
• 47:45
  the story.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the way in which he talked about it,
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: was so matter-of-fact.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yep.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he just said, maybe he's doing drugs, maybe he's not.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: just that image,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: that sensory,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: emotionally felt image of him holding my brother as he was shaking and
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And his ability to just speak to it from a distance.
• 48:24
  Which I would say is an indication of well-defined boundaries
• 48:33
  and your dad knowing
• 48:35
  where he ends and your brother begins and that this is your
• 48:39
  brother's thing,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: not your dad's,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: which makes it possible for him to be there and hold him.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like,
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: and what an interesting,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:53
  I'm talking about being bigger than and holding this whole
• 48:57
  scene that this behavior
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: or this
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: pursuit that's locked in for your child around identity,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: we haven't gotten into like,
• 49:06
  what different parts of the separation complex could the trans
• 49:10
  identification be
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: out of,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: we haven't even touched the start of that conversation yet,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: but this idea like you can,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: you got to be able to hold the whole thing.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: How interesting is
• 49:23
  What you just said,
• 49:25
  which is like you have to see that you're separate in order to
• 49:29
  hold it.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that means doing your own healing attachment work.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: And boundary work.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And self-love work.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise there's that enmeshment.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: The boundaries aren't clear.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: This becomes your thing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we are driven to save.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or where we think we can.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the purpose.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're all here to save ourselves.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: And once we do that, we can be big enough.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not there yet, you are not alone.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is most people.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you are watching something that is too much to bear,
• 50:23
  watching somebody you love doing something you believe is
• 50:27
  self-destructive,
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: what is your job?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:34
  Is it to save them or to make conscious your own fears and do
• 50:42
  your own work?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you can be big enough to actually be present for them,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: which is a very different dynamic than your compulsion to save them.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you might need some help with that boundary work.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: And with the fear of the spider and understanding what it really is.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this goes beyond the grief work.
• 51:12
  I'm going to use the Jungian integration idea here,
• 51:19
  which I think is similar.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's similar to Neufeld's ideas around that too,
• 51:25
  but becoming your own distinct being who knows how to care and
• 51:31
  love for yourself so
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: that your care and love can cascade together.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: So two thoughts on this.
• 51:39
  One that jumped out to me as you've been speaking about the
• 51:43
  boundaries is where I
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: end and you begin and being a separate being.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: I do think there is a lot of threads of how is this interwoven with,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: like you were saying,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: this idea of integration around maturation or the emergent process around
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Also the adaptive process, because part of this is the futility.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it is hitting the wall.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can't change it.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the surrender.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is, you know, it's.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: If we can feel that futility, we can adapt to the separation.
• 52:26
  And that separation,
• 52:27
  not like estrangement per se,
• 52:29
  but like my child looks different.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: My child smells different.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: My child's acting different.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: My child is totally different.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe this is beating a drum that people are like,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've cried a thousand tears already about this.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: I cry every day,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:47
  but I still have to say it to just say the futility has to
• 52:52
  register in the heart.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: But where I really wanted to go was this idea of what Neufeld calls the
• 53:01
  orthogenetic principles from some theorists who I can't
• 53:05
  remember his name,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: but it's this idea like even the cellular level,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: you see this process,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: like the,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: let's talk about like fertilization of an egg,
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: like conception of a child.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: The sperm and the egg fuse.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like life begins at fusion.
• 53:18
  And then there is a separation in order to reintegrate again,
• 53:22
  to be the separate and together.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 53:27
  And so if what you're talking about in some of the parent-child
• 53:31
  relationships,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: what you're seeing at play is like the fusion is where things still are.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that process of emerging as a separate being still needs to happen.
• 53:42
  I think what you're trying to say to parents out there is it
• 53:47
  doesn't mean you're
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: separated forever.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that you're
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: It means that you have to do...
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: some kind of emergence as a separate self in order to then come back into
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: relationship with your child,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: your adult child,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: in some of these cases.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have that integrity while also having diplomacy.
• 54:17
  So you can be a separate being while also existing in
• 54:20
  relationship to your child
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: who is different from you.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a loss.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because you will never,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: once you become that separate being and able to do those things,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's a different relationship.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is a new, very different relationship.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that old way is gone.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that is scary.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is what parents are feeling, right?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want that to go away.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: That was such a beautiful part of their life to be this child's parent.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this too is part of the human experience.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what it means to be a parent.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is how it grows us up.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is how it helps us with our own self-definition.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 55:14
  And I want to come back to one of the images that you offered
• 55:18
  in the beginning of
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: how life reflects this,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: this remarkable intelligence of life and the roots of the tree,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: that this is the work now the parent needs to do.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to reach those tree limbs out to,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: grasp the kid and hang on,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: and that doesn't work.
• 55:35
  Your roots now have to go deep so that you can feel securely
• 55:41
  attached to the universe and
• 55:45
  Which is what makes you strong enough to hold something this
• 55:52
  messy and this painful.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: You are rooted.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we are driven to seek that.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is what wisdom – that is human potential, I think, right there.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's what allows us to fully mature.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that might seem a little esoteric or a little too poetic.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't – I think it –
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're saying,
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: it's all kind of,
• 56:25
  you're speaking to the same process of attachment where we're
• 56:31
  going with this,
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: in the podcast and,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: in this conversation is like,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: when we're looking at the model,
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: maturation,
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerability,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: attachment,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: what you're speaking to is that even if we're grown,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: like even if we're older in age,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: we still have these needs.
• 56:54
  We still have these attachment needs that are going to create
• 56:59
  the conditions that
• 57:02
  to allow for whatever further maturation or ability to feel our
• 57:08
  own vulnerability,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to allow for those two processes to unfold.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're talking about tending those roots for ourselves,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: finding ways to,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: if the conditions weren't already there,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: how do we try to cultivate them for ourselves?
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we can do that, you know, now what you say, do the work.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 57:40
  is it work or is it like creating conditions for ourselves
• 57:45
  because these processes
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: are spontaneous?
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: not running from the pain,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: not running from the futility,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: not running from the separation,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: here I am.
• 57:58
  You turn toward it and care for yourself,
• 58:02
  parent yourself,
• 58:03
  alpha yourself.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, this is what we can talk about this more.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think there actually is like a whole...
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: new felt video.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: What about me?
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Which is about for adults,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: what is,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: cause his whole model is built on children and there is kind of this,
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's a free resource so we can dive into it,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: anytime we want on the podcast and share it with listeners.
• 58:25
  But,
• 58:26
  um,
• 58:27
  you know,
• 58:29
  there is an aspect of,
• 58:31
  of growing up through parenting.
• 58:33
  So I think what I don't want people to walk away from,
• 58:36
  and I don't think this is what you mean.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: That the relationship to our child is also about us growing up.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: That being big enough to hold this, they're not mutually exclusive.
• 58:50
  Tending to the conditions you need for yourself and moving into
• 58:56
  that alpha role
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: are,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: parallel to one another.
• 59:00
  You know,
• 59:00
  I don't think it's like,
• 59:01
  I do this one and then I do this one,
• 59:02
  you know.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, go ahead.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: They are both essential and they are going to have an interaction.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to be,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:15
  it doesn't mean tending to your own soil and those conditions
• 59:18
  doesn't mean I am now
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: no longer parenting my child or being a mother or being a father.
• 59:24
  It's actively,
• 59:26
  it's like these two things are mutually reinforcing,
• 59:32
  I guess,
• 59:32
  is important.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: and developing even together,
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think through parenting,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: we are going to learn a lot about our own boundaries.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: We are going to be invited to self-define,
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: that it is the parenting process itself that is going to help us to
• 59:55
  not necessarily complete it,
• 59:56
  but to get to a much more mature level of self-understanding.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Through what parenting brings up in us, you know what I mean?
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Through that relationship and through that individuation from our child,
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: that that's,
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: that's,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: that is,
• 1:00:17
  I don't know that there's anything that's going to be more
• 1:00:18
  beautiful and more
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: helpful in this work,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: albeit also probably the most painful.
• 1:00:29
  I think this is...
• 1:00:31
  In fact,
• 1:00:32
  this also comes up in my conversation with Adam Jacobs.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: He says one might argue that that's what parenting is for.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: To finish growing us up.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not an isolation from your child growing up.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly do not want to imply that.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: However, I do think there are times where that space is...
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: necessary and okay.
• 1:01:00
  And this brings us to something we wanted to make sure to
• 1:01:03
  mention,
• 1:01:04
  and that is the bridging.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to bring it on home.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: And just to say,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: and this is part of,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: what came up that we didn't include last episode,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: is one thing that has helped me,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just say that,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: with this learning about boundaries and having them,
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of different ways to practice boundaries, to
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: part of it is purely internal.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it is like getting worked up and activated and in the pursuit,
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: in the frustration,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: in the alarm,
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: like all of this stuff is just inside of me and moving me,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: moving me and like being in that mess,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: but not,
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: but realizing that it's my stuff.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well said.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:03
  And in that case,
• 1:02:04
  there's not a whole lot I need to do externally with my child.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like this is my shit, baby.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: OK.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe there's an apology or,
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was really frustrated or I just need some time and space.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: But like owning and being responsible for like my emotional state is.
• 1:02:26
  That is a part of having boundaries because I am not projecting
• 1:02:31
  it onto the other person.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is me.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is you.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also just like in general,
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: when we're putting boundaries in place,
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: some of them are going to be said out loud to the other person.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are just going to be enacted.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not doing that.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't actually need to give you a thesis on it or justification.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it can be one sentence.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't work for me.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great boundary sentence.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that doesn't work for me.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is not working.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: I need some time to think about this on, you know, I'll get back to you.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not justify, negotiate.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: it is just something doesn't feel right about,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: even that is probably sometimes too much.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just like, hey.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: No is a complete sentence.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard, right?
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just.
• 1:03:31
  It doesn't have to be,
• 1:03:33
  I am now going to tell you that I need boundaries from you.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just, this isn't working.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: I need some time.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the bridging thing,
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: if you're shifting that behavior through your actions,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: or if you're just laying out a simple,
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: I need some time and space,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the separation that that will also evoke in your child,
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: being conscious of that and just,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: sweetheart,
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love you forever,
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: but I just need some time and space.
• 1:04:13
  I'm here,
• 1:04:15
  but if you don't hear from me for a couple of weeks,
• 1:04:17
  just know I'll be back.
• 1:04:24
  I got you in my heart,
• 1:04:26
  but I just need a little bit of time to process some of my own
• 1:04:30
  emotions.
• 1:04:32
  You know,
• 1:04:33
  but this idea of bridging is like,
• 1:04:36
  until next time,
• 1:04:37
  there's still a thread.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: I will see you soon.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that whole like there and, you know.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of anticipating the connection, the next connecting point.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'll hold you in my heart.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: That there is a next time.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: There is a see you soon.
• 1:05:01
  There is a next point of contact and closeness to look forward
• 1:05:07
  to so it doesn't
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: feel like the icy sword of a cutoff.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you feel like you want that sword,
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: and you want that just the searing off of so much,
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: pain because of your role,
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: for your child and the separation that can evoke,
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:34
  that you can take the boundary and take the time and space
• 1:05:37
  while also bridging that
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: separation as best you can.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: you're also,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important to also say what boundaries are not real quickly.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're not telling the other person what they need.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about trying to control or achieve.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually going to read these off of something.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, please.
• 1:06:09
  Not about trying to control or achieve a certain outcome for
• 1:06:11
  another person,
• 1:06:13
  right?
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: They are not a trick to get what we want from our adult children.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what they're about.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: They are about what we are willing to do or not do.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: They are about expressing our own needs and taking care of ourselves.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that can get very confusing.
• 1:06:30
  People think that people can use them to try to get their child
• 1:06:37
  to do what they want them to do.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what a boundary is.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: Intention matters.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: And your kid will pick up on that.
• 1:06:48
  And you'll find that it doesn't work and tends to push them
• 1:06:51
  away,
• 1:06:51
  tends to be wounding.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, this is about self-care.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: And just like where you started with talking about estrangement,
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: that the adult children in our pervasive estrangement,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: no-contact culture,
• 1:07:10
  that the no-contact can be often used as a tool of emotional
• 1:07:15
  manipulation.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to be better than that.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be more mature than that.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be bigger than that.
• 1:07:22
  and not resort to using withdrawal of contact and closeness as
• 1:07:29
  a way to manipulate
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: our child's behavior.
• 1:07:32
  We covered a lot of territory today,
• 1:07:33
  but I think it's been really good,
• 1:07:35
  really,
• 1:07:36
  really good.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: And to be continued, okay?
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: To be continued.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
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• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: As always,
• 1:08:01
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• 1:08:04
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• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.