Latest / GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast / The Story of The Clash: They survived punk and mastered many genres
Transcript
- Garage to Stadiums: The Story of The Clash Guest: Chris Salewicz, London UK, author of Redemption Song: The Ballad of Joe Strummer Host: Dave Anthony Dave Anthony 0:01 Dave, Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony, and this is the garage to stadiums podcast rated as one of the top 5% of podcasts globally. On each episode, we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame and play some of the songs that mark that journey. Welcome to garage, to stadiums. Today's episode is this story of a clash. The Clash were a British punk band formed in 1976 known for their politically charged lyrics, diverse musical influences and energetic performances, their groundbreaking albums, including London calling and combat rock blended punk with reggae, rockabilly and ska, earning them critical acclaim and a lasting cultural impact. The band featured two key figures, guitarist and primary lyricist, Joe Strummer and Mick Jones, a musical sponge who embraced emerging styles together. They created hits like, Should I Stay or Should I Go London, calling and rock the Casbah, propelling the band from punk roots to mainstream rock and commercial success, the two are almost polar opposites in personality. Strummer is the high strung rabble rouser often focused on initial lyric writing for songs, while Mick Jones was the more introspective, analytical one, but a musical savant who knew many forms of music and helped shape the clash sound by bending these various sounds around strummers intense lyrics, the other members of the band were topper headen, a talented drummer with experience in jazz drumming, and Paul Simonon, the bassist who, as you will hear, was led into the band because he was deemed very good looking and did not even know how to play the bass. However, their contrasting personalities, as you will hear, also led to significant tension and ultimately the band's downfall. The band had a legion of fans, including the who's Pete Townsend you two, Green Day Nirvana, and others who admired the clashes, combination of ethics and musical ability. Here to discuss the story of the clash is Chris salevich, who lives in London and has documented popular music and culture for over three decades in print, television and radio. Chris' book, redemption song is a biography of Joe Strummer, front man of the clash. Chris became very close to Joe over the years, and will tell us a lot of insider details today. He was also part of the founding team that launched MTV Europe. Welcome to garage, to stadiums. Thank you very much, Chris. Take me back to the the four, and I guess we'll specifically focus on Mick and Joe, but take me back to where these guys came from, because I think the audience is going to be surprised in particular about Joe's background. Yeah, Joe's. Chris Salovich 2:59 Joe's father was a diplomat, and he worked for, you know, for the English, English government. And Joe was born in Ankara, in Turkey in on 21st of August, 52 only 52 and you know, he was kind of brought up with a first couple years of his life with a car Turkish nanny could speak Turkish. Then, then they moved not that far away. They moved to Cairo. And then, always obvious what happened? There was about to be the Suez Crisis when England invades Egypt. Yeah, 1956 56 it's a disaster. But they were moved. The whole family were moved to Mexico, to Mexico City just before that, like a couple of months before, as though they were kind of moving people, or, you know, moving staff away, protective of what was about to happen. And in fact, whilst there, not long after, there was an earthquake, and Joe, as as he told me, you know, went in his five or six, he goes, hides behind a wall, which is he puts it, that was the worst thing I could have done, they kind of pulled on top of me. But anyway, and then they then they moved back to his father was ill, actually, and this he may have had an opera. He may have had an operation for an Elsa in England. And then they go to Germany. Then they're in Germany somewhere, and then they're also in Malawi at one point. So there's a very peripatetic existence. And he gets sent to a boarding school in ashted in Surrey, just south of London, the city of London's Freeman school. And this was not unusual. You know, the children of people working in the. Dramatic services or the military would get sent to these not colossally great schools, you know, which were boring schools. So that's fascinating Joe. But Joe was always very resentful George's parents when they sent him and his younger brother there, actually. But Joe kind of he as he he kind of survived. He learned, as he learned, about bully to survive, and the idea of not sure if he was a boy, he probably was about sometimes his brother did not do well, and his brother committed suicide in, I think 69 isn't it? After? Having developed far right leanings, which may well have turned Joe very much the other way. Dave Anthony 5:49 Joe rarely spoke about his brother David's suicide, and many around him were unaware of the story. According to Chris, Joe preferred to keep it private, though it deeply impacted him in several ways, as you will hear, Joe Strummer was born John Mellor, and changed his name a couple of times, first to the first name Woody, and then ultimately his entire name to Joe Strummer. Why did Joe change his name? Do you think Chris Salovich 6:16 because it sounded better? I think actually, I asked him so once, you know, and I mispronounced his name as melas, which, of course, is the game keeper in lady Chatter is lover. And he said, No, no, I couldn't be like that, because I didn't get a woman like the game keeper did. He changed his name loads of times. As you probably know, Woody, who's also, yes, Woody, you know, it Dave Anthony 6:40 was Woody. Is Woody? Was that in respect to Woody? Guthrie, or, what was that? Yeah? Probably, yeah, you know, probably Yeah. And Mick Jones, Where was his? How? What was his upbringing? Like? Chris Salovich 6:54 His father was a black cab driver, and his and his, you know, his, mother was sort of quite a large family, Jewish family, and his parents did actually split up when he was about eight, and his mother went to live in America, and he ends up living with his with his dad, his si called her his grandma in that tower block that I went to interview here, off the harrow in in northwest London. And he went to school, went to strand grammar school. But one of his things was, was always being, you know, he adapted to being a single child, and whether, you know, he would talk about how you get, you could get these things called, I think they were called Red Rover passes for the busses. So during school holidays, he would just travel all around London. You know, just learning, it would be one of the mixed things with always, I like to learn. I like to learn things. I enjoyed going to school because I like to learn. But, you know, he said, so he would absorb, as I said, he absorbed popular culture, but he was very well read. You know, Joe is very, they're all very Joe. They're all very well read. Joe is very well read as well. They're intelligent. These guys, you know, they're really, they're really sharp. How Dave Anthony 8:19 did they come together, and then how did they sort of break through? You know, it's Chris Salovich 8:23 obvious he's gonna do what he's gonna do. He goes to art school, a branch of Chelsea art school. Joe's goes to Central Art School. But Joe is three years older, so he's already Joe is part of the squatting culture in in maid of ale, West London, those, those, those parts of London which were kind of like full of empty houses, you know, big Victorian houses, but schedule for demolition to build, you know, Dave Anthony 8:56 apartments or whatever, Chris Salovich 8:58 flats or not, not, you know, Private but kind of like, you know, public housing, public housing and, but, you know, they took ages to do this. So this, it was a whole area, and it was quite politicized, yeah, a lot of the, you know, there were lots of groups of people, or Hells Angels, for example, there, you know, left, very anarcho left wing groups, and Joe was on the edge of Carlo, one of those, really. And so he's a he's a either he's a 101 waldenston Road, hence the group that he eventually puts together. It's called the 101 is Dave Anthony 9:32 so to recap, Chris Joe becomes the lead singer, guitarist and main writer for his first band called The 101 ers, named after the address of the street on which the public housing in which he lived is situated. Chris Salovich 9:47 And they're a kind of R B group, and they're doing okay. And Joe started to write songs, and he's got quite good lyrics, you know, like keys to your heart, for example, but the lyrics are good, you. He's good at this and he's good at being a front man. Mick, meanwhile, with Tony James, who becomes the bass player with Generation X, has put together a group called London SS. They never actually play any gigs. That's a tough name, as you wrote, they would say, they would say, stood for Social Security, which was a London dealer you went to get your doll money at the s at the Social Security. Obviously, it has an ambiguity which is a little bit dodgy, and perhaps part of the reason why they don't do any gigs. I mean, Bernie Rhodes, who then becomes their manager, really recommends to get rid of this name, actually, not this guy's. However, Bernie becomes involved with Bernie's is a kind of Hustler, an interesting guy, you know, and friend of his, very close friend of Malcolm McLaren, who has the sex shop, and then begin starts to manage the Sex Pistols. And in fact, if anything, I would say, I, well, no, just not. If anything, I much preferred Bernie as a human being to Malcolm McLaren. Bernie was quite funny. He's very bright. You know, McLaren, we seem to have a coal fish to me, but not everyone thinks that, I must say, but me, he seemed that Dave Anthony 11:29 What did, what did Bernie Rhodes bring to this somehow Chris Salovich 11:33 gets them to get a rehearsal space, and a whole succession of musicians come through this rehearsal, rehearsal space, including rat scabies, who becomes goes off the bigger the drummer with a damn Chrissy Hein comes through at one point. There's there's other people as well, that's where. And then someone comes down. I think he's trying to be the singer, that's it. And he has another guy with him who looks really good. It's in Paddington in West London, and, and that's Paul Simon, the bassist, perhaps the bass player. And, you know, you know, typical art school thing, you know, it's like the visuals is always very important. And Paul can't play the bass at all. But, but make his things. He looks great. She can see how he can fit in that visually. He he looks good. He looks fantastic. So, so, so make sense about teaching him the bass and that's what happens. In fact, we paid the numbers of the notes on the on the neck of his bass guitar. Yeah, and And then Paul learns by listening to reggae records. And Paul had also grown up in South London, not too far from where Mick had, although I don't think they really knew each other at that time, although they're both born the same year, in 1955 and he had slightly peripatetic existence because his parents split up and his mum goes to live with her new boyfriend, who's a painter. I think they're living in Brixton, the kind of immigrant area of South London, but then he starts to hang out on some skinheads and football hooligans, and it's deemed he's a bit out of control. So he's said to live with his father in Labrador Grove in West London, in Notting Hill. He's also a great artist. He's actually a very good painter. His art teacher from school gets attached to it and says, you know, you're so good, you could get a scholarship to art school, you know? And I think you should do this. So he does, and he goes to an art school called bioshore, which is actually private art sport in Holland Park in West London. But I'm giving you these locations because all this is around Notting Hill, and that's where Notting Hill is over hung by the West way, like this motorway that's been built across the city. And of course, this the part of the clash of shtick is it become known as the sound of the West way and Notting Hill, which was then very run down some immigrant area, immigrant area, immigrant bohemian people were looking so much cheap to live. Kind of interesting. Now it's still full of bunkers. Of course, they're playing gigs, you know, by the you know, they haven't got a name the clash at first, but Paul comes up with the name of the he just keeps seeing it in in, you know, newspapers, you know, political, you know, union, yeah, clashes, yeah. Clash of, you know, of the garbage collectors, or whatever, you know. But it's like, here's a name that kept coming up Dave Anthony 14:52 at this point, Mick Jones and his recruit on base, Paul Simonon, are in the clash. And Joe. Strummer is in the R and B band called The 101 ers, but as you will hear, their paths would soon cross, and soon they would all be members together in the clash. So Chris, we have an audience. We have an audience of all ages and genders, etc. For those of us who didn't live that sort of mid 70s to late 70s punk movement bring the audience back to what it was like to see this kind of music emerge in sort of the British scene. Chris Salovich 15:31 Yeah. Okay, so I was working on that. Started working on the enemy the new music Express. But I felt something was in the air. You know, you could feel it. I went see the pistols, the six pistols, in april 1976 at the Nashville rooms in West London, quite near where I was living. They were supporting the 101 is, which was strummers group, of course, right? And, you know, the pistols gig is, suitably is in chaos. You know, there's, there's a rotavirus of attacking someone in the in the audience. Dave Anthony 16:09 Stop in the audience for this Sex Pistols, one on oneers concert or clash founder Mick Jones and his bassist recruit Paul Simonon. A few days after the concert, The Clash manager Bernie Rhodes, who Chris described as a very energetic Hustler, approaches the fiery front man of the 101 ers Joe Strummer, and sells Joe on why the clash will go to the top and why he should join the band. And Joe does join. Joe once said in an interview that when he saw the Sex Pistols quote, I knew we as the one on oneers, were finished five seconds into the pistols first song. I knew we were like yesterday's papers. I mean, we were over given this quote, Joe probably was not hard to convince to join the punish clash. And Chris, you went to see the clash after Joe had joined the band, Chris Salovich 17:02 I went to see the clash Some months later, which is October 76 A Fulham town hall. Well, the clash came on, and it was this burst of color and movement and excitement, and I couldn't understand what the songs were. All the lyrics were at all, and they were singing one of the songs, I thought was called, why riot. But anyway, that was a kind of gathering of punk. You know, it's like an early sighting. Dave Anthony 17:42 The song that Chris heard was actually white riot. In an interview with The New Musical Express in December 76 Joe Strummer responded angrily to the suggestion that some people misinterpreted the white riot lyrics as racist. Strummer insisted they were not racist, and pointed out that inner city black youth were now fighting back against poverty and heavy handed policing. According to Strummer, white riot was a call to arms to white youth to fight back in the same way and have, in the words of the song, quote A riot of my own. Unquote, Chris Salovich 18:14 the place we only holds 150 people, if that you know, but I'd say about a third of the book of like look like the clash also looked on stage, and which is my short hair, very dramatic colors, you know, stem guns in lights, bridge graffiti across Simon and shirt writing, you know. And if I afterwards, asked Mick Jones about that, and he said, Oh, we just wanted, we didn't really care what it sounded like. We just wanted to be just this blur of color and movement and be really exciting to look at. And which, of course, the three front men had all been to art school. And it kind of very much bespeaks that, I think you know, that the visuals were always very important in the clash. Dave Anthony 18:58 Yeah, it seems to be a, seems to be a theme. Was successful group. Somebody in that group went to art school and created sort of an image or a brand or whatever it would be, exactly, especially English group was the was the English scene inspired by the Ramones and the New York Dolls and niggy pop and all that, did that sort of get exported, is that how it began. Do you think there's Chris Salovich 19:18 an element of that? Yes, and really the first people who inspired them all were the New York Dolls. The new you knew your dolls were pretty terrific. I thought they're fantastic, but the Ramones album came out in it's 76 isn't it? What? I can't remember what month, but suddenly everyone hears that. Everyone's heavily sales break twice as fast the talk. Dave Anthony 19:49 So the clash, first album entitled simply the clash comes out and contains that song, white riot, and a song written by Mick Jones called Janie Jones. Chris Salovich 19:59 Janie Jones. Jones wrote that on the, you know, the, what is the 31 bus going over to rehearsal, rehearsals, their studio. JD, Jones is the first track on the album, but it's, and it's about a woman, Jamie Jones, with a prostitute, who was kind of involved in that payola scandal with DJ, you know, radio, DJs, yeah. I mean, she had a premises again, of dotting your gate, actually, yeah, she was a sort of folk hero at the same time. Dave Anthony 20:37 Another song that appears is police and thieves, a remake of a reggae song which shows the influence of reggae on the band, and the album as a whole, discusses the injustice, poverty and racism that is affecting British society, scaring the nation guns and and how did the economics of the UK play into all of this? I mean, what was happening in that period, Chris Salovich 21:10 place is a, I mean, sort of contemporaneous with punk, and also part of its right interlinked with it really is, is English disaster. I mean, financially, you know, and they were all as, as I said, there'd be newspaper headlines about union problems and strikes or whatever. And there was a, I mean, for example, there was, there was a garbage collector strike. And in Leicester Square, which is the center of London, the garbage was piled up to the kind of, you know, halfway up the buildings. It was extraordinary. And the place is really falling to bits. In fact, there was an incident with the Sex Pistols in, I think it's December the third, 1976 when this when they they go on a TV show to promote their first single Anarchy in the UK, and they sort of curse and swear on it so they're drunk, basically, go Speaker 1 22:07 on. You've got another five seconds. Something outrageous, dirty bastard gone again. Chris Salovich 22:17 The other rocker, this appealing, becomes blown up into a huge scandal there on the front page of, you know, the popular newspapers for a week. But But part of that, in retrospect, you see it was to distract people, because that was the same day that the Prime Minister James Callahan had gone to the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, to basically beg for funds to keep Britain afloat, and people, you know, to say they want a distraction. So that's kind of, it's too interesting. That's because that's kind of interwoven with the pistols and their emergence, but especially because as a kind of, you know, very one of those very kind of English things to bury something as bad as having to the country Dave Anthony 23:02 the breakthrough. I mean, they got the second album on November 78 it's released. That album number two, called give them enough rope, features the song safe European home and Tommy Gun. You happy. And then December 1979 the epic flash album London calling comes out. This has been called one of the best albums of all time, and it features a more mature sound that carries off in various directions, from reggae to punk to pop and new wave. Chris, you've got a blend here of inputs from Joe strummers, R and B background to Mick Jones, encyclopedic sense of music and pop rock electronic to Paul Simon and reggae influences to topper head and jazz sensibilities songs like London calling, clamp down. Unknown Speaker 24:22 Propose Dave Anthony 24:24 train in vain and lost in the supermarket. She people, what did you notice at that time? What was happening that just sort of broke them at that point, that album and did the US start to kick in a little bit, or was it still just the UK? Chris Salovich 24:58 It did see. Seemed, well, it's like a huge step up for a start, Dave Anthony 25:03 and the pistols are long in the rear view mirror by then, aren't they? Well, Chris Salovich 25:06 the pistols are supposed to have the beginning of 78 basically, yeah. Wind is sort of Dave Anthony 25:11 weird, but the mantle of punk, I mean, these guys have taken it to the main street, you Chris Salovich 25:17 know, then they look and then the variety on the record. I mean, it's a stunning record. It really is absolutely stunning, you know, and, and, you know, one would have to think that is one of the, you know, the greatest albums of all times. It doesn't Dave Anthony 25:32 even sound, it doesn't Chris, like a lot of songs or, sorry, a lot of albums from any era sound dated. This thing is current, Chris Salovich 25:40 yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, to such an extent that it came out in England in December 79 correct America, it doesn't come out till january 1980 so that the end of the 80s, Rolling Stone can declare it to be the best album of the decade, decade, even though, yeah, it's funny. So that's a there's always lots of complex paradoxes like that about the crash. By the way, there's a poetry about them that I always love. I mean, like, for example, people would say to me, well, it must have been great hanging out with the crash, all those fantastic political conversation. No, he was just hilarious because they're all really funny. That's the one of the things about them is slightly gets missed out. They're all very, very funny. There's a great humor about them, and it's always nice. It's nice to hang out, you know. And we seem to share a certain sense of humor. Dave Anthony 26:39 You've described Mick Jones as the sponge of music. He was the one pushing the band in all sorts of musical directions as they evolve. And then Joe Strummer is kind of the Elvis, you know, the old time rocker. How did it all come together in terms of the clash sound? How did these two sort of distinct inputs come together. Do you think? Don't Chris Salovich 27:02 forget also Paul's reggae import. And chopper heads, you know, jazz background and jazz and kind of jazz fun. Chopper was a fantastic drummer, for example, I think he's absolutely using who's a key element of the clash. And Mick Jones was a kind of consummate student of not just popular music, popular culture, in fact, but he kind of knew, you know, he would know acts that you would think he would know, in depth, acts that he would think he wouldn't know. And I remember once being at someone's place, and they had a copy of electric light orchestras El Dorado album. This is double sided record of mixing. Oh, yeah, the third side of that. Really good. Topper was very important, you know, I mean, I mean, you know, Topper wrote rock for Kaz bar, which is actually their biggest hit. Rick understands commercial music for a really wide base. He can't really understands what the good stuff is, you know, and understands why it's great, you know, he's not, he's not bound by what's cool necessarily. You know what people think it's cool, which is always, yeah, he knows. So he, he has all these elements coming in and so, but Joe has that kind of rugged element as well, whether he would have had from the 101, is, you know that? I mean, I think the road, he says Little Red Rooster was one of the first songs that he really got into, you know that when he did score, I am the Unknown Speaker 28:52 Little Red Rooster, two ladies. Chris Salovich 28:59 So he's, that's called an era he's from, and he likes that kind of 60s, early 60s, 50s kind of stuff. So that's a good blend with, you know, the more commercial stuff, quality commercial Dave Anthony 29:13 stuff. So it's kind of got the R and B spinal column, but then it's taken in all these directions. It sounds like, really the very lateral way, you know, yeah. And certainly the clash were responsible for bringing reggae to a larger audience in some ways, at least on a commercial level, yeah. But Chris Salovich 29:29 I think the I would say that the clash were there first definitely. Were they police and thieves, which is on the first album, you know. And all just used to do that as they used to sing that perform that's as the warm ups when they're in the studio before, before they thought of recording it, and when you were around them, they'd always it was quite funny, because they'd always have fantastic reggae tapes playing on their getting a blaster. But then you sort of asked Joe, what's that tune? He wouldn't have a clue. Actually. How Dave Anthony 30:00 would you contrast the pistols with the clash? Like, what was the differential, other than? Well, they only had one album and kind of faded. The pistols Chris Salovich 30:08 are obviously fantastic, you know, but they're fantastic, really, with Glenn Matlock, who writes the songs, and then they get rid of him, and Sid Vicious is brought in. But they're also good with Sid, actually, you know that? I mean, I saw them with it too. The pistols are much darker. The subject matter, sorry, everything about the pistols is kind of darker. But whereas the clash always seem quite positive, what they're doing, you know, and and the lyrics of both of them, they're kind of, they are satire, essentially, you know, but, but there's something lighter. And actually, I always think, well, the clashes lyrics, particularly on the album hilariously funny, you know, and it keeps going. And there's a wit and cleverness about those, about those lyrics, which, which, you know, and stroma is really responsible for Dave Anthony 31:12 the clashes. Fourth album, Sandinista, is released in 1980 and has the hits, Magnificent Seven. Speaker 2 31:20 Oh. The back to this awful face Dave Anthony 31:31 and police on my back. The album that follows is called Combat rock, and it starts to solidify the clash as a global phenomena. MTV puts the clash music videos into heavy rotation, and the group becomes big in America. Songs on this album are almost anthem, like with hits like, should I stay, or should I go? Written by Mick Jones, Unknown Speaker 32:01 darling, you got to let me know. Should I stay or should I go Dave Anthony 32:10 rock the Casbah, written by drummer topper head, in which we played a couple minutes back, the band was asked by Apple co founder Steve Wozniak to go headline the US festival in California in 1982 the US festival was a three day music festival that attracted 1 million fans over three days. The organizers pay the clash 500,000 to head up New Wave day at the festival. Soon thereafter, Mick Jones, the founder of the band is asked by Joe Strummer to leave the group. It is seconded by Paul Simonon, who was one of the original members with MC Jones. I want to get to why this band ultimately comes apart. What in the end, do you think were the driving forces of this band breaking up well before it should have, you Chris Salovich 33:02 know, I always say people think I'm joking when I say this, I say, Oh, they wear Matt. And it's like the stresses of, you know, work, and the speed at which all that stuff is going and the creative energy, you know, you stop thinking clearly. But Dave Anthony 33:16 it sounds like Joe was a bit of an autocrat from your book. I mean, he ruled that band with an iron fist, which is surprising given Mick Jones, Chris Salovich 33:23 uh, yep, trouble, you know what I mean. So it's a bit of each, you know, this, like, who's running the group and mix and make, as far as Mick was good at me, was his group. He started the group. Then they go, they got Joey. They got Joe in from the one, oh, others. But it's not always the cat, you know, but it's like these things are very floating. And I think Johnny Green says in my book somewhere, about people would go to Joe with a problem, thinking Joe is going to solve it, but Joe is this a given fuck. He can't go from he hasn't got time. You know what I mean? He's like, he's exhausted. You're exhausted when you're doing stuff like that. I don't mean he doesn't give a big fuck because he's like, cynical or not uncaring, but you don't have time. You know you've on the road, you're touring, you're doing interviews, you're trying to write songs. You haven't got a headspace, Dave Anthony 34:11 as Chris says, By the end, many albums, tours and pressure took their toll on the two band leaders when the clash made combat rock in 1982 Mick Jones and Joe Strummer couldn't even be in the same studio at the same time, Mick worked during the day while Joe took the night shift. As Chris says, Mick Jones resented Joe for taking control of the band he had founded. Meanwhile, Strummer and Paul Simonon were reportedly fed up with Jones' Rockstar behavior, like demanding someone place a cigarette in his mouth before going on stage as Gavin Edwards of Rolling Stone magazine once wrote Strummer summed it up. Quote Mick eventually said, I don't mind what the clash does, as long as you check in with my lawyer first. So I said, Well, go write songs with your lawyer. Piss off. UNQUOTE, after the breakup. But Mick Jones goes off and forms a band called Big audio dynamite, or bad for short, and they become a band that, not surprisingly, mirrors Mick's love of new sounds and several different musical influences. What did you think when Mick went to big audio dynamite? What was kind of the what did you think of that sound? Chris Salovich 35:28 I think big audio dynamite is quite underrated, actually, because they're the first, I think they're the first act using all those movie samples in 14 count. Game to sound guilty. You know, the movie dialog that's in, that's in, in those those songs, and it's obvious, it's an element of what the clash would have been, I think, bigger device, terrific. Actually. Dave Anthony 35:58 We described Joe and Mick at the beginning as almost polar opposites. Well, they go through a period where they don't speak with Joe, trying to continue on with the clash, putting out a disappointing album and mix group Big audio dynamite, actually picking up steam, getting radio airplay and excellent reviews. However, the strong personalities were attracted to one another again, and Joe Strummer ended up writing several songs for big audio dynamite second album, as well as producing it. So if they were still together, they might have moved in that direction, Chris Salovich 36:34 I think so, yeah, especially, you know, the second album was Joe CO produced and wrote five of the songs on it. Yeah, Dave Anthony 36:41 that's an Unknown Speaker 36:42 album. It's fantastic. Dave Anthony 36:44 I think people forget, I think people forget that Chris, that Joe, was involved in that second bad album. Bad being big, audio dynamite. Chris Salovich 36:53 I thought the class were gonna get back together. I got into trouble for telling someone, you know, I was in the studio with them in London. They're trying. And they, you know, they did write those, some stuff. Just before Joe died, he sent make a load of lyrics, maybe the beginning 2002 and Nick said, Oh, is this for your next album? No, it's the next clash album, Dave Anthony 37:20 Joe Strummer, lead singer and the man who wrote the majority of Clash lyrics, was found dead at the age of 50 in december 2002 by his wife, an autopsy showed a heart attack caused by an undiagnosed congenital heart defect. The the one thing that strikes me about the clash is their bravery. Early punk sort of attracted a lot of skinheads and a lot of kind of hard edged people who didn't have probably the world views that the clash had, and they were brave enough to sort of stand up and sort of fight that, whatever you would call it xenophobia, tell us about that bravery, that they sort of kind of carved a path, that you could be a punker and you could still, you know, you'd stand for the right side, if you will, the right side of the just Chris Salovich 38:08 made it. They just made it clear that, that, you know, I mean, I think, I think, actually, Paul said it best, who said, you know, no, it's not a political it's not about politics. It's just about knowing the difference between right and wrong, and the house to behave and, you know. And Jer, she said once, oh, what's Pung rock? Punk's rock at Rock is about having impeccable manners to your fellow man. So it was about as decency as human beings. So that's, that's how they perceived things and and there was a sensitivity. I mean, there's a sensitivity to all them, a huge sensitivity to them. I mean, I don't think I've seen Paul in tears, but the others, I'd seen them all in tears about things that were kind of like, you know, about matters, or, I can't remember the specifics, but perhaps as if you know they're not about themselves, about situations. According Dave Anthony 39:06 to Chris, growing up as the child of a diplomat traveling across cultures gave Joe a deep empathy for all backgrounds and a strong sense of social justice a hallmark of the band's music. Chris also believes that Joe's strict boarding school experience that we spoke of at the beginning of the show, coupled with the tragic suicide of his brother, fueled his fiery anti establishment outlook. Joe blamed both his parents and the school's authoritarian rules for his brother's death, and his disdain for authority became a driving force in his lyrics, whether it was heavy handed policing or the right wing policies of Margaret Thatcher's government in the late 70s, Joe's anger and activism shaped the clash as enduring message. When we look back at the history of music, where will the clash be in the place of music history? What will people remember them for? Chris Salovich 39:58 Fabulous Music? Like righteous behavior, funny as hell, not being shits and making fantastic music, fantastic that just stirred you so you've the Essence of Your Beings. Love it. I found it very interesting. You know that that chat D, there's a there's a podcast about the clash of what's happened to it. Actually, Sony did it, and Chuck deep became the presenter of it, and he said, Oh, when we formed Public Enemy, we wanted it to be like the clash, the cross, those attitudes and those sort of multiplicities of sources. Dave Anthony 40:51 Yeah, the observer of society that commentary for sure, exactly tell me how you would describe Joe Strummer in a few words like that, loving, Chris Salovich 41:02 heartfelt, heart on the heart on his sleeve. Always caring, really difficult. Sometimes, Dave Anthony 41:15 yeah, yeah, it's very sad that he ended so soon. Um. Mick Jones, how would you describe him? In three or four words, Chris Salovich 41:24 fabulous guy, deeply creative, extremely sensitive, wonderful, a wonderful person, Dave Anthony 41:32 yeah. What about Paul Simon and great Chris Salovich 41:35 artist, very thoughtful, very intelligent. Doesn't necessarily always show that very intelligent and broad, broad view of life and humanity and his part in it, and other people's parts of it. Dave Anthony 41:52 Well, we may as well do topper while we're at it. Topper heading, Chris Salovich 41:55 hugely talented, struggling within himself, overlooked, perhaps recovered in Dave Anthony 42:04 1982 the year before MC Jones was asked to leave topper head and was asked to leave because of his serious heroin condition, correct? Yeah, Chris Salovich 42:12 which got very bad, very I mean, it's a bit of a tragedy, you know, as Joe said, Oh well, you know, we should have, we should have waited and then get over it. But that's what I meant when I said they went mad. You know that the speed of anything's happening? Yeah, you know you can't wait it. You know everything's everything you work for, is happening. We should suddenly wait a year while someone cleans up. Dave Anthony 42:36 Successful times can rip you apart as equal as tough times. It's actually, it's probably not gonna happen. Who has the clash influenced? Chris Salovich 42:44 Oh, lots of kind of, loads of people. I mean, obviously out The Libertines, Green Day, demonic Street Preachers. I mean, they're so obvious ones, aren't they? But they but they come like it, just of character. I just think it carries on all over the place, you know, yeah, it's, I mean, probably even Oasis and blur, you know, obvious, obviously. But I think, I think it's the same as punk, actually. I think the actual notion of punk itself really influenced the last quarter of the 20/20, century. And I still think to this day, well, no, we're another 25 years into it, into this run, almost, you know, right? It was like a radical art movement that it's they were, they spearheaded, and not just in music, in right across the board. You know, there are artists, as I said at the beginning, very significant that the three front then all went to art sport, because there are, they pretty were artists. I mean, musicians are artists. But very specifically, those three, yeah, Dave Anthony 43:57 your point about punk, infusing a lot of things that came after is a really good point. I mean, you think Nirvana, you think chili peppers, Scottish Unknown Speaker 44:04 that I wish you saw Captain Mr. Know It, close your eyes and I'll kiss you. Chris Salovich 44:12 Yeah, I missed out the rubber there. Of it, yeah, of it. And chili peppers grow very much. So yeah, but do it yourself. Ethos, and, I mean, I've been in the studio with the, with with, with the clash. And, you know, someone will just suddenly work on something, a little riff or whatever. And suddenly, oh, suddenly, Oh, hello. What's this song they're rehearsing London, calling to go on tour. But actually, this is, oh, this is what becomes bank robber. You know, Joe is playing a piano. I didn't even know Joe played piano. Dave Anthony 44:51 We always ask our guests to pick up three songs of the band that the audience should give a listen to could be lesser known hits could be the hits could. Be a theme behind your picks. What would you say to our audience about the clash and three picks? Chris Salovich 45:04 I, you know, it's very hard because I changed my mind. Changed my mind every second, basically, but, but because they're also, there's so much great stuff, but I already mentioned Jamie Jones, and that's what I was gonna said, Jamie Jones, and I think I have to say, you know, it was gonna left it out, but I can't. I have to say London calling. It's all obvious. It's all obvious stuff I've thought of. And straight to hell. Do I pick straight to hell? Because it's called an epic it's an epic song from the last phase of the group, really. And you know what brings together all those themes they loved? You know the you know the supposed romance of the Vietnam War through films like apocalypse. Now king, King English Speaker 3 45:59 in qualitation as well. Head, pound. The steel mills rust Chris Salovich 46:06 and the cover, of course of combat wrong which is on was done in Thailand, where at supposedly the site of the Bridge over the River Kwai. Just think it's such an epic song. I think it's sort of a wonderful Dave Anthony 46:22 tune. It's incredible Chris, to think that this band brought punk and that raw sound into the mainstream by fusing it with a reggae classic R and B sounds, jazz and pop, such that a mass audience radio stations and MTV all digested it and fell in love with the sounds, Chris Salovich 46:41 yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Chris, Dave Anthony 46:44 it's been a pleasure to have you today. We urge everyone to pick up and look at all the books that you've written, because there's been so many. But I wanted to thank you today. Chris Salovich 46:55 Thank you very much. Thanks. Great. Dave Anthony 47:00 Some closing notes. As Chris said in 1989 Rolling Stone ranked the 1980 American release of London, calling as the best album of the 1980s Although the album was recorded and released in 1979 it was not released in the US till 1980 thus qualifying for the Rolling Stones ranking the clashes 1977 self titled debut album was recorded in just three weekends. Despite the quick turnaround, it's often considered one of the greatest punk albums ever. The band insisted that their 1979 release London, calling and all their subsequent albums be sold at below market prices to make them more accessible to more fans who faced economic challenges selling London calling a double album at a price which was significantly lower than other single albums released at the time was illustrative of how the clash prioritized their fans over commercial success. That iconic photo on the front of London calling of bassist Paul Simonon smashing his guitar, well, that was taken in New York City in 1979 and despite the photo being out of focus, Joe Strummer and designer Ray Lowry thought it would make a great album cover. The artwork was designed as an homage to the design of Elvis Presley's self titled debut album from 1956 with pink letters down the left side and green text across the bottom. Hard to picture a punk rocker loving marathons, but Joe Strummer shattered the stereotype. The Clash front man hit the pavement for the 1983 London Marathon rocking a shredded t shirt turned vest and a pair of Adidas a year earlier, he tackled the Paris marathon, reportedly fueled by 10 pints of beer the night before. Who needs energy gels when you've got lager? Mick Jones initially considered a career in journalism. His early journalistic interests may have contributed to the Clash's socially conscious lyrics, as he had a keen eye for current events and sociopolitical issues of the time. This insight helped make the Clash's music more than just punk rebellion, it became a platform for commentary and change. In 1991 the Armed Forces Radio chose the clashes song rock the Casbah to herald the beginning of Operation Desert Storm in the Gulf War. The band was horrified to learn that their song was now associated with the conflict in Iraq, Joe Strummer was reduced to tears when he found out that American pilots had painted the song's title onto a bomb. Special. Thanks to our listeners for helping make garage to stadiums one of the top 5% of podcasts in the world. We'd love for you to follow our show so you can be alerted when our next episode drops. Send us your comments at info, at garage to stadiums.com. We'd love to hear from you for more on the clashes career. Visit garage to stadiums, where you can see our bonus coverage of the group, which includes video clips of various stages of their career. At the site, we've made it easy for you to build a killer playlist for the clash and for every performer featured on a garage to stadiums episode. Out, find the link to the apple and Spotify playlist in our bonus coverage section. We hope you enjoyed our show today. Special thanks to our guest, Chris salovic, author of redemption song, and also thanks to our producers, Amina faux bear Connor Sampson and our program director Scott Campbell, you've been listening to garage to stadiums, another blast furnace, labs, production. I'm Dave Anthony, see you next time for another garage to stadium story. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai