Latest / The Standard / The Neuroscience of Performing Under Pressure | Ep. 50 Dr. Kiersten Janjigian

Transcript

The Neuroscience of Performing Under Pressure | Ep. 50 Dr. Kiersten Janjigian · The Standard

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are good to go.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Standard Podcast, where we raise the bar, rebuild the culture, and call out the lies or misconception that nobody else will.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't motivation, this is a movement.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Thomas Rowe, and I'm joined by my host, Aaron Charles.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're sitting down with Dr.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Kirsten Jingigen.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Jingigan.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Did I pronounce that?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Jinnigan.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Jinnigan.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Jinnigen, okay.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: A neuroscientist.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need that for my cognitive thinking and mental performance consultant who specializes in how people perform under pressure.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: She holds a PhD in cognitive motor neuroscience and dual board certifications in biofeedback and neurofeedback.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: She works out of the intersection of brain behavior, physiology to help athletes, leaders, and high performers execute when it matters most.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Her approach is known for turning complex neuroscience into practical, actionable systems that improve decision making, emotional regulation, and consistency in high-stakes environments.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Her research has focused on the cortical dynamics underlining applied to sports psychology and the state of the brain under stress using electroen.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have to help me with that word.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, electroencephalography or EEG.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or EEG, that's exactly what my nose says as her primary uh neuroimaging tool.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: These findings underpin her evidence-based method methodology linking neuro efficiency and psychological regulation to observed performance outcomes.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: In practical terms, Doc helps people understand what's happening in their brain and in their body in real time and how to use how to use that information to perform better when everything else is on the line.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're diving into the truth behind what it really takes to build identity, discipline, and legacy in sports and in life.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Doc, thanks so much for joining us.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate it.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron and I are super excited to hear your insight, your experience, and just drop some pearls on our audience.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for joining us.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to be here.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're a neuroscientist and mental performance consultant who specializes in how people perform under pressure.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: What does raising the standard mean to you and the neuroscience and performance work you're doing with and with athletes on and off the field or with professionals?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think raising the standard kind of as an umbrella concept means doing the internal work to show up as the best version of yourself.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that kind of means you're attempting to reach or move towards self-actualization in a way, but really thinking about how you can show up in a way that makes you so confident in doing hard things that you stop comparing yourself to others and you kind of learn and understand how your unique talent skills can make the environment around you better, can make the world a better place.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you think is the biggest lie that you feel the culture or the performance industry sold athletes and high performers about pressure, stress, and what it actually what it is actually happening in their brain when they need to execute at a high level?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this is an interesting one.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there are many answers to this, which means it's a great question.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think I would say predominantly the idea, society has fed us this idea, especially high performers, that life should be easy or that things should get easier as we go along.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like the arrival fallacy like if these things are aligned, eventually everything will be good, everything will be great, everything will be happening like I need it to, where I really don't think life gets easier at all.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think it actually gets harder.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the only reason it starts to feel easier eventually is because we get better at handling hard.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: We get better at handling challenge and learning how to deal with it.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we see this from a neuroscience perspective, right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: The basic concept of neuroplasticity is that you learn the brain is a prediction machine and it learns how to make better decisions, do what is better off for you, handle stress, et cetera.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: But high performers in particular, there needs to be friction for you to get good at things.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is often a misconception.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's try to make this as easier, easy as possible, or this should should feel easy, and then we go from there.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I think friction is good.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we could even add friction with boundaries is good, because another misconception that a lot of high performers have is to constantly push and they're being fed this expectation of like keep going, do things harder, whatever it may be, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: But there has to be a period of consolidation with the brain, rest, recovery.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that leads us to friction with boundaries is good.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Got it, got it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And your research focuses on underlying applied sports psychology and the state of the brain under stress using EEG, or in simple terms or layman terms, what does this mean and how does it how does understanding the brain help people perform better or at a higher level?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we can kind of talk about here biofeedback or neurofeedback.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Biofeedback is essentially a way of describing feeding back physiological metrics to a person using special measurement techniques or tools so that they can learn to control their nervous system in real time.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And generally, biofeedback can describe many different types of peripheral physiological metrics, such as many people have heard of HRV biofeedback, heart rate variability biofeedback.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: We can also measure heart rate in general.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: We can measure respiration rate, we can measure something called galvanic skin response or skin conductance, which is an indicator often of autonomic arousal.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: We can measure temperature or muscle tension, and a person can actually watch those metrics happening in real time in their body so that they can gain volitional control over those things.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to the brain side of things, there is a type of biofeedback called neurofeedback, and that engages the central nervous system with the brain and spinal cord.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a way where we show the individual their brain waves being fed back to them in real time so that they can gain control over the central nervous system and the state of the brain.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, with neurofeedback training, we can train a person to better engage in the state they want to be in, for example, right before they execute a motor task in their sport, or you know, right before they start that down he skill, downhill ski, or as they're shooting a free throw.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So this is where the psychophysiological background of mine comes into play when I'm working in the mental performance domain.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about mental skills and we work on traditional mental skills, but I'm also incorporating that physiological measurement and kind of in general physiological work that the athlete can kind of level up even more in terms of how it's affecting their performance.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Got it, got it.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, before I turn you over to Aaron, I don't want to dumb this down.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to, I mean, what are some quick hacks?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like if somebody wants to get better at free throws, they got to just do free throw reps.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: What are some, you know, quick hacks or three skills or exercises that you would give somebody to improve their mental performance or focus?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: So let's see, three on the spot.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, first and foremost, is besides the physical practice and repetition, like you just mentioned, we want to think about the underlying mechanisms that will help you get better at the physical practice in general.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: So attention is really important.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this is also a misconception that we could talk about, but attention is trainable.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Regardless of the biological predispositions that you come with in terms of your attention capacity, you can still train and get better at attending and focusing on whatever it is you want, but you have to practice it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: So actually engaging in attentional practice when you're doing your physical practice or even in mental using mental rehearsal is really important.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of just focusing on the free throw, think about what you want to focus on are cues that you're gonna engage with in your environment when you step up in an in-pressure situation and you want to execute like you've practiced.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So actually outwardly training attention.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think second is work on your self-talk.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Think about how you're speaking to yourself.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Are you coaching yourself through hard situations?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Are you being hypercritical on yourself?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Does your brain go down the rabbit hole of catastrophizing and associating failure with the outcome, even though nothing has happened yet?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And try your best to start reframing things in a more positive, facilitative way.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think the third tip this is a technique that I love to teach, and this is where my research has really been based, but in mental imagery, and like I like I mentioned, you can engage in physical practice and mental practice or visualization.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really important to develop some sort of mental rehearsal practice that you can do without actually moving your body that's putting you in situations that you might see in real life.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Badass.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna turn it over to Aaron now, segment two, identity and legacy.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron, take it away.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, Thomas has shared all the accolades, all your credentials.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I would love for you to share with our audience just who is Dr.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Kirsten, well beyond all the degrees, all the research, all the science.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Who is, who are you?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this is a great question.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I don't get asked this a lot.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And to kind of preface my answer, there's an exercise that I do with many of my clients where I will ask them to write out their obituary.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds a little dark, it sounds a little morbid, but it's a beautiful exercise in kind of facing the facing the reality of what you're currently prioritizing, what roles you actually want to be remembered for, and what qualities you actually want to be remembered for, and kind of, you know, holding a mirror up to see if you're missing the mark or not currently on those things.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I have engaged in this exercise myself, of course.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I always come back to this idea that one, my goal and my purpose is to help others.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I also really want, if and when I pass, I want people to describe me as loving life, being able to have fun in any situation and making them feel special or teaching them something special by the way that I treat them.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I also have a side of me that is very analytical and rigorous and evidence-based and professional.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I I love to work.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I find myself often reminding myself, you also need to live, you you need to live your life, you need to have fun, find the joy and the fun in the work that you're doing, and kind of maintain a balance to both of those things.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how that's how I like to see myself is I have I have both sides to me.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's so beautiful.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I I have never done that exercise, and I love that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna steal that instead of trying to do it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Try it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm going to.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love that so much.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that, it kind of dovetails into kind of a similar question is how do you help help people that you're working with with the concept of legacy?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what does legacy mean to you?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: But then how do you help apply that with individuals, just like you described with that exercise of writing your own obituary?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, legacy is a it's such a big concept that a lot of people have never explored or thought about before.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's super tied to identity.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: So typically with my work with high performers, that's where we start is kind of how do you identify yourself within your sport or as a human being?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is your identity completely tied up in the outcome of your performance context?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you have other roles in your life and how important are those things?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then from there we can kind of explore how do you want to show up every day and contribute to whatever it is you're working on in a way that will make you feel kind of effective or like you're contributing something positive to your life.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And this is this goes deep, as you can imagine.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is a lot of conversational work and kind of consistent learning about where you've come from, the experiences you had, stuff like that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think one of the questions I like to ask is how do you want people around you to feel when you're next to them?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like how how do you want to influence others?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: What should people feel like when they're near you?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that starts to get at what your legacy actually is.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's so simple and it's such a good check, I think, for the way that we show up in life with within relationship to other people.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, with all of the work that you do, what separates people who consistently execute under pressure from those who struggle when the stakes are high?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what does the neuroscience actually show us?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great question.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, and we can talk about this across contexts, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Not just in sport, but we can talk about this in military domain, business domain, whatever it might be.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna simplify this as much as possible here, but I think um the commonalities in these high performers in these contexts is that one, they have very good self-regulation.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: They can engage in the state that they need to be in under pressure to execute exactly how they want to very quickly, and they can self-regulate after stress to recover very quickly.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Second is attention.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: They are very good at honing in and focusing on task-relevant things, stimuli that are important to the decision making that they will have to eventually do or that they are in the middle of.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: And again, that's trainable, like we said.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then third is that decision-making piece and that emotional regulation piece.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: So can they stay emotionally regulated at the same time as they're saying their nervous system is regulated, their attention is locked in, and then they have clarity and decision making as a result of that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: That those are the commonalities or the characteristics that high performers across domains have.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And all of those things are learnable.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of what the brain looks like when those things are happening, oftentimes we think that when someone is doing something very hard or is very stressed, an expert under stress, for example, that their brain might be working harder or using more resources, but it's actually the opposite.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: High performers have efficient brains.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: We call it neural efficiency or psychomotor efficiency, so an efficient brain, meaning that they're actually using less resources, only the resources that are extremely relevant and important to the task at hand.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So their brains are typically a little bit more quieter than someone, for example, who's in a learning stage or a youth athlete.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they can engage better with or manage better what we call cognitive load or the effort that it feels like a task takes, and they can increase their what we call attention reserve or the space in their brain that can go to paying attention to other things.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's awesome.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I am okay.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I what I love that you said, I mean, all of that was amazing, but the one thing that it's like, hey, you can learn this.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: These are skills that we can learn and train ourselves to be able to act in that same way.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so important because I think so often people think like, oh, I just don't have that, so I'm never going to be good at it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then they kind of write it off, and you can actually teach yourself, obviously, to do this.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: What is one truth you wish every athlete, leader, high performer, whomever it might be, understood about their brain stress, stress, and what's really happening when they need to perform under pressure?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think overall the answer of this question is like I wish more people understood that we are our brains.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: So your ability to execute something physically really well is actually coming from your motor cortex and your brain.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's not your muscles.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your brain trains your muscles.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can treat your brain appropriately, like it is that important foundational tool to everything you're doing, you will be better off.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that means prioritizing your sleep, getting great rest and sleep, eating nutritious foods to feed your brain, getting exercise and physical activity, doing your best to put the screens down during the day and go outside as much as you can.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Kids, adults, all of us.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get outside, let's play, let's enjoy.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: We all need improvement on that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we do.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: We definitely do.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna kick it back over to Thomas now.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, awesome.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Aaron.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Doctor, I've got a question for you regarding advice or a couple questions regarding advice across stages.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you can sit down with young athletes or performers who are struggling with pressure and anxiety, I think more specifically, one of the things that Aaron and I have dealt with is imposter syndrome.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: What would you want them to understand about what's happening in their brain and how they can work it, work through it or rather and work, use it as an asset as opposed to letting it work against them?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a lot of times the brain will go very quickly to threat states when there's a lot of anxiety because of a misinterpretation of what's happening in the body.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really helpful for young athletes in particular who are dealing with anxiety or this feeling that I don't deserve to be here.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why I'm here, like how the heck did I get here?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: To first understand that anxiety under stress or under pressure situations, which is really anything that is important to you, any game, competition, right?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: It could even be training, could be practice where there's some stress there, is your body preparing yourself to do well or to execute and activate the system to go sprint or throw pass or whatever it is, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So basic level of understanding the nervous system is really helpful as a start there.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then that the idea that you have control over how you interpret that physiological reaction to then inform how it feels afterward is really important.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, feeling a lot of pre-performance anxiety because I'm afraid to fail and I'm afraid I might lose or make a mistake or get taken out the minute I'm on the field, whatever that is, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I can reinterpret that anxiety I'm feeling into something more facilitative.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like my body is preparing me for battle.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm gonna catch this pass, I'm ready to go.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: My attention is locked in because of it, whatever, whatever it may be.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it we like to describe it as changing your mindset from.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Threat to challenge.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a challenge ahead.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Your body's preparing you.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Everything kind of turns a little bit differently.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's more facilitative to performance versus the oh my god, what's gonna happen next?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so afraid to fail, which the brain just turns on threat perceptors, like you're just perceiving it, everything as being more debilitative.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think imposter syndrome is real, or is that just something that we kind of make up?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Good question.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is a cognitive construct that we kind of put ourselves into.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think oftentimes there's this story is told in different ways, where like when you catch a firefly in a jar, think about when you were a kid and you caught a firefly.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you never heard that, but you can imagine firefly in the jar and the lid is put on and it lives in there for a couple weeks, maybe, and then you open the jar, the firefly or the cricket can't jump or won't go past that lid because it has perceived and been put in a little box, even though it is now open and free to move.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: You'll also see this where they'll take an ant and put it on a paper and draw a sharpie black line around the ant, and the ant will not pass the sharpie line, even though there's no there's no physical boundary or burden for them not to pass, right?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we often do this to ourselves where we perceive everyone else as being smarter or better.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: We shouldn't be in this environment.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: How did we get here?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: When in reality, we clear we're there for a reason.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's I think it's kind of a self-impeding boundary that we're I totally agree with you.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron and I were working with uh a baseball player that wanted to his dream was to always play in Major League Baseball.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he after college, he went into double A, triple A, and he finally got called up.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he is his response was what now?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, dude, this is what you've been working for.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is you know, this is this is on you, this is in your head.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he got through it, you know.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we could go down another rabbit hole of the yips.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: We were talking to somebody who was, you know, dealing with some baseball players.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what about uh experienced athletes and leaders who have some mental performance training but still struggle with consistency in high-stakes situations?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: What does neuroscience tell us about when this happens?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so with this, I typically suggest that maybe work on training a little bit differently.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because even the mental performance skills are great and you definitely need those, and you have to practice them to engage with them under stress or when it becomes really important.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: But you can kind of layer in mental skills training, neurocognitive training and attention training and physical training all together, and that's when it becomes really effective.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't I really think a lot of coaches are not are missing the mark on this, they're not engaged in this kind of training.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that might look like incorporating a lot more variability in practice than pure repetition, creating opportunities for athletes to make decisions that are going to be hard in competition in training and actually calling those things out.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: So actually naming that like why did you make that decision?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: What are you going to choose to do here?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can also add on pressure training to this.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: One thing that is a huge pet peeve of mine is the way that coaches often see pressure training or practicing under competition circumstances or contexts where they will bring out the loudspeaker and or the crowd noise and play it during penalty kick practice, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Before a team is about to go to the tournament.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that in the brain just becomes it's habituated.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: We get used to that sound that is not creating any sort of pressure or emotional valence in a way that it's gonna feel for that athlete to be taking a penalty kick when the game is on the line, there's 500 people watching, and they might get a college scholarship if they make it, right?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: So creating pressure training in a way that is incorporating attention, decision making, and emotional valence is really, really important in terms of like how we view this from a neuroscience perspective.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where coaches can get really creative, yeah, really creative.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: No doubt.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you kind of have to understand the concepts to get there first.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you've seen it all and heard it all, and you probably sometimes scratch your head.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: What about for someone who's just starting to understand their own mental performance?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: What's the first step in using neuroscience principles to perform better when it matters most?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so when you're when you're just kind of learning and getting into mental skills, I think it's less important to really think about the way the brain is working and all the neuroscience and the bells and whistles that I'm talking about with the neurofeedback or biofeedback and kind of think more about establishing self-awareness first.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you understand yourself in these different contexts and how you're changing and where your mind goes when certain things happen?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then self-regulation.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Can you begin to engage in the state that you want to under certain conditions?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you would begin using mental skills to do that, right?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there's there's a ton we could talk about, but I think those should be your focuses when you're starting out is how self-aware can you get?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of questions you need to be asking yourself to get there?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then self-regulation.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Can you maintain the state you want under changing conditions?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is awesome.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Those are some incredible pearls.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna turn it over to Aaron for segment four, which is the rapid fire round.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron, take it away.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: So this is fun.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is just short and quick.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say a word, or and you're gonna finish my sentence.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: So discipline equals freedom, legacy equals kindness, leadership equals trust, faith equals love.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: What's one thing you would never compromise on?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think maintaining relationships that make me feel dimmed in some way or another, like dimming the light or energy that I try to bring.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what is one message?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you could put it on a billboard for people about performing under pressure, what would your message be?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would be nothing in life that is truly fulfilling is easy.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is good.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: That is so good.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: I will say though, just to add another one, I might also want to make a billboard that says read a real book.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: To be fair.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna that's me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm turning it back over to Thomas for the last section of the interview.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Jengan.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Jenjigan.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Jenjin.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't call me Dr.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Kirst.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Kirsten.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Before we wrap up and we just have one or two more questions, is there something we didn't touch on today that you feel athletes, leaders, or high performers need to understand about neuroscience pressure and optimizing their mental performance?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I always like to reiterate mental training is so important beyond physical training, and it can be really helpful.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not one or the other.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: They need to be used in tandem to really reach optimized performance or peak performance.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I would I really hope that kind of this new wave of leaders and new wave of coaches are ready to help their athletes engage with mental skills training in a way that not only enhances performance, but also is looking out for their well-being and kind of soul work, if I can say it like that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well-being and satisfaction in their sport as well.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think the athletes are ready more so than ever to talk about it and work on it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: But we need leadership to support them and we need leadership to provide the resources so that they can engage in the work.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a question.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when uh we had some of our some some of our friends knew that you were coming on and we shared a little bit about you.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of the questions we got from one of our athletes is well, I thought it was a really good question.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is PTSD real?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And how does it compare between athletes and those who have actually been on the front lines of war?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so PTSD is real, it's a diagnosable psychiatric, psycho psychological condition.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is outside of my realm of expertise for sure, but I'm I have definitely read some papers about PTSD.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's different for everyone because everyone's kind of trauma that may have created this the state in their brain is going to look different.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the underlying kind of neurobiology around PTSD is going to look similar in everyone's brain, and it's gonna look like things like elevated cortisol in certain regions of the brain, less ability to kind of regulate the nervous system and turn on the parasympathetic nervous system and get into that kind of relaxed state.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you're always kind of hyper-vigilant in the brain that is really heightened, you're almost always in that threat, threat state that we talked about.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: And again, the in terms of comparing the athlete PTSD versus the combat PTSD, two separate environments in terms of stimuli that might influence kind of PTSD flare-ups or what that might look like when you're in everyday life.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: But PTSD can be worked through, worked on.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: There are there's a lot of research going on right now that is looking to help these individuals.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: And there's also kind of new research about post-traumatic growth.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that that is something that's also possible when you start to reframe and understand what's actually happening in these situations.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 33:10
  unknown: Dr.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Kirsten, where can people connect with you and learn more about your neuroscience-based approach to mental performance, whether that's a website or whether it's your social media or your your LinkedIn or your email?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they get where's the best place for them to get a hold of you?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so my website is a great way to reach out.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: I also have availability for session booking there, which is www.drkirst dr-k-i-erst.com.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: My Instagram is also a good page.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: I keep that up to date with a ton of educational resources.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that is at Dr.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Kirst, again, D-R-K-I-E-R-S-T.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: And LinkedIn, I am on LinkedIn sparingly.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good place in terms of professional connections or networking if you're interested in that.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say website, you can find my email there and Instagram are great places to connect.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Kirsten, thank you for helping us understand what it really what's really happening in our brains when we need them to perform.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if this conversation hits you, do two things for us, team.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: One, share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: An athlete struggling with pressure, a leader working on decision making under stress, a coach helping their people or their athletes with mental performance, and two, connect with Dr.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kirsten and learn more about our neuroscience-based approach to mental performance.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you understand, if you want to understand what's happening in your brain and body in real time and how to use that information to perform better, her evidence-based methodology could be exactly what you need.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're an athlete, parent, or coach ready to raise the standard, check Erin and I out at blueprintbluechip.com.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: We help athletes build identity, discipline, and legacy that goes beyond the sport or in game.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if this episode has resonated with you, team, do us a favor, do us a solid, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more athletes, parents, and leaders who need to hear this message.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is the standard podcast, and this movement only grows when we raise the standard together.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Talent fades, but truth endures.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's raise the bar, let's rebuild the culture, and let's become the standard.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Kirsten, Aaron, thank you to you both for joining me, and team will see you next time.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.