Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #24-Franklin Cook

Transcript

Episode #24-Franklin Cook · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to this episode of Turn Grief into Growth, The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, good day, Don.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's another beautiful day in April.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing this morning?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Can't complain.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Had a night's walk, listened to some podcast hours, um, which uh was fantastic.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, good, very good morning.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know something?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I just have to share this real quick.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: I woke up at uh um what I thought was 7 a.m.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: this morning, and I was just elated that I actually slept all the way through the night.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: I looked up, the TV was on, my wife's you know, end table light were on, she was looking at her Facebook.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, how did I conquer insomnia last night?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then I looked over at my clock and it's 12:30 a.m.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: and I was like, dick on it.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh all right, Don.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we've got another guest with us, Franklin Cook today.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Franklin.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thanks for having me, guys.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah Franklin, we're gonna turn it over to you and let you kind of introduce yourself to us.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um in terms of the of the topic we're we're talking about, I have a long story just because my my dad died um from suicide, and uh from uh that was a result of a lifelong uh daily use of uh excessive daily use of alcohol.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: That that happened in 1978, you know, when I was 24 years old.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um my dad was 49, and so there's a you know, there's a lot of stories.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So so uh you know, I'll just try to I'll just try to say what I think you know might might be most um you know most most pertinent pertinent to what we hope to talk about.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, you know, if I were if I were introducing myself and thinking that I was gonna be talking about um you know grief and and and growth, you know, I I would begin by saying um you know, the first part of the story, you know, there's like two 10-year periods of my story that don't have anything to do with growth other than what I would say is healing, you know, healing, okay.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Not not and even that was tenuous.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So to make, you know, to kind of to kind of say that in a condensed way, the first 10 years after my dad died, I was still in active addiction myself.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I was on a pattern of uh relapse.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So the first decade I struggled with my addiction mightily, and I I stayed off of drugs and alcohol three or four times, but it was always, you know, relatively briefly less than a year, and then I'd be back out for a couple years.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that had an enormous effect on my grief, and I was very much shattered by by my my dad's death, as is a part of people's story.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly know what it means to feel broken and by it.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so being in that struggle, uh I mean, I was a I was a regular, you know, I was raised in a family, I got a master's degree in English, I was always employed, but on the on the inside, I was pretty much um like anybody who is addicted to drugs and actively using.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um I was one that looked good on the outside, I guess.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: So the first decade, when I say I had healing, it was because I was trying to get um into re in recovery.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: So all those attempts really were meaningful and helpful to me.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then the the next 10 years, I guess I would I would I would characterize as um you know trying trying to get to the other side of my my addiction and trying to return to I was 36 years old when when I got into recovery.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so my my life for a decade was was really about being active in recovery.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was very active uh in 12-step programs.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I no longer attend 12-step programs, but I was I was very, you know, I was very much um a person who was continuing his healing as far as psychologically, emotionally, and so forth.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I was having you know the regular life.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I I have uh history of broken relationships, and um, you know, I was no no longer married to my to my first matter of fact, I was married to my second wife when my dad died.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, there's a lot of relationship turmoil, but still how I would characterize that whole 20 years was I got a lot of healing and I got a lot of help, and I told a lot of people who were helping me about what happened to me and my dad and about my grief.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: But nobody ever, and myself included, ever just said, well, let's address this grief thing, you know, let's dig into this.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so again, it's a it's kind of a paradoxical six situation where you would have to say that I that I experienced a lot of a lot of healing over my addiction and my mental, emotional, and you know, spiritual struggles.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I was I was in pretty bad shape with my grief still in 1999 when I first attended a peer grief support group.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I I attended that because I had a major depressive episode, not like not unlike the one that killed my dad.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, maybe if I tell the first half of my story and we can we can talk about because after that, you know, there's there's uh there's kind of two before and afters in in my life.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Before my dad died was one life.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: After my dad died, I've just covered two decades and three, you know, three minutes, but it really does capture you know what it was like.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I was I I was terribly still broken um after all that time.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's before and after I first attended a peer brief support group, which to me was um, you know, I don't want to overstate it like it's melodramatic.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was a life-changing experience, but it wasn't like a miracle.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: I say miracles are incremental, and you can usually only tell that there's been a miracle when you look back, you know.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: So or that's been, I shouldn't say I shouldn't say that for everyone.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's been my experience.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: So when I look back, you know, that that really was a life-changing moment for me.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would say, um, you know, that that and that's what 27 years, 27 years ago.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So there's, you know, there's a lot about that.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I just, you know, if there's a short version of that, it is that I dedicated myself to suicide prevention and suicide grief support.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that became my my career.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I could write a book about that, you know.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, I you know, I now co-own a company that works on peer grief support with other people who are you know from the same world we're from in terms of being bereaved and being involved in peer support.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll just, yeah, I think maybe it's good to talk about that part that way and go, okay, there's that.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what questions do you have about about all that, or or or how can I be helpful, you know, to to do you think I could be helpful, you know, to to you and your listeners in some way?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would do my best to do that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the um and uh I've known you a long time, Franklin.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's been 15 years, I think, since since we first met.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you um you know, you've always impressed me uh with uh just the uh the depth of of your knowledge, uh wisdom uh maybe is uh is better.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but um I I've always been curious the um the the how how were you able to work through uh the addiction and get to like pull yourself out of that with you know the grief being so uh prevalent in your life.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Boy tough question.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, again, you know, I'm I'm one of those um and and I call myself an addict.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Some people uh don't uh like that language.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm one of them Yeah, but for myself, how I talk about myself is my business, you know.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So so I'm from I'm from that culture and I've identified myself as an addict in 12-step meetings about 10,000 times, you know.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So so that's that's that's how I speak about myself.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh the first time I drank when I was 12 years old, you could have diagnosed me as an alcoholic from that single episode, you know.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Everything that happens to somebody who I wasn't full blown because it was the first time I drank, you know, but everything that happens to a person, you know, drinking more than I ever believed, I might, uh getting drunker than I ever understood what even meant meant, and feeling like it was absolutely the best thing that had ever happened to me, you know, all happened, you know, in in in in that in that episode.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So so between there and um when I when I got into recoveries, you know, 24 years.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So what what what I would say is that um our our suffering, you know, whether you're talking about addiction or whether you're talking about grief or or whether you're talking about mental illness, you know, I have a serious mental illness, I have major depressive disorder that is well treated, you get here, meaning on this side of it by suffering, I don't know how else to put it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I don't want to be too abstract, but you know, my my my my suffering required me to continually um you know feel how I felt about it, sometimes terribly, sometimes did terrible things.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Terrible things happened to me, both in my grief and in my addiction.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I was I try to be responsive to those things, you know, in ways that I thought might help me or might change or might stop me from, you know, they have a saying in 12-step meeting about the wreckage of of my past.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, when you're in it, you're creating the wreckage of your past.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty much the story of addiction, you know.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And even though I was a really uh functional person in relative, very functional person in a relative sense, you know, I was in the throats of my addiction, you know, from the time I was 18 to the time I was 34 years old.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, so what I would say is that the way I got through it or got to the other side of it is I kept, you know, there was something in me that was very, very pronounced that that knew something was the matter, you know, that that however great I felt, and I felt great thousands of times, you know, just like which is why you you stay out there, but you see that there's something badly the matter, and whatever drugs and alcohol does for you turns on you, you know, it just it's clear, it's clear as a bell, no matter how much you deny it.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't like to use that term because I think that's become a cliche, but you no matter how much you fight against it or how much you're drawn into using again and again, whether you want to or not, you know that something I knew I should speak in the first person.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-oh.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're having some technical difficulties.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: You froze you froze up there, Franklin.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Just a minute.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Where was I?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: How about now?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: You you said you were in the throws, I think, and then it froze.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: So so no matter no matter whether um, you know what it what it was that was happening um that caused me to keep using, or whatever my rationales were, or whatever it was when I tried and couldn't quit, or whatever, there was never a doubt in my mind from the time I was you know 20 years old or or or so that something was terribly wrong.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think responding to that and trying and trying again is really how I got into recovery.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: I went to retreat treatment the first time when I was 27.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a decade of relapse, but but I was responsive to my reality in here, even if I wasn't admitting it out there.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so you carry, I again I'll say I, you know, so I carried this knowledge, you know, that there was something broken, very broken.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I did all kinds of things and started trying to get get into recovery when I was 27.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So really, um from the time I was 27 on, I way knew.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: I went to inpatient treatment when I was 27 years old.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew something was bad wrong.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I I uh I just didn't give up.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I did, I gave up repeatedly, you know, but I kept you know trying again against all odds.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: And even the last time I tried, I didn't believe I could ever get into recovery.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I just was gonna die if I didn't stop to use or it felt like that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be melodramatic, but you know, the last time I really didn't believe I could be in recovery except for long enough to get healed up again and then go back out.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I didn't have an idea that I could stay in recovery.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, and to be specific, also, you would have to say that I got into recovery through 12-step programs.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I was a you know, I was a devout, you know, narcotics anonymous and and alcoholics anonymous uh member for the first you know 15 years.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and I so I I got I got into recovery through the 12-step method, you'd have to say that, and just I had a ton of counseling, I had a lot wrong, you know, so I got a lot a lot of help.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So finally what happened was I didn't use the next day, and that's been happening since you know October 17th of 1990.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one day at a time, yeah, yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Franklin, let me ask you um a question.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think he might have froze up on the screen again.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: He might be having some connection issues, but um when when we when we were talking about uh because I took some notes here, I just wanted to kind of look at uh we talk a lot on this podcast about before and after, you know, my son was David, Don's son was Josh, before Josh died, after Josh died, before David died, after David died.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: And there's just like timelines that you could just kind of attribute to.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you mentioned a lot of those just with the different recovery, you know, treatment programs, the decade that was kind of lost after your dad died.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's also a matter of you said that whenever you first had alcohol at 12 years old, 12 years later, your dad died.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you knew that there was this susceptible personality to addictive personality with that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I found something interesting I kind of wanted to drill down on, and that is that you had said that there was um a lot of treatment emphasis for you, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, that emphasized um over or the drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and mental health, but not grief.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I like to use the term emphasis is on the wrong syllable versus emphasis on the right syllable.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like that was the case for you where maybe there was a lot of grief?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: You had that addictive personality, there's no doubt about that, but yet it wasn't addressed in the grief side, more of just the addiction side.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: And one's cause and effect.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I think that's just you know, precisely um, you know, what what what I'm saying, uh, you know, that that unravels or unpacks, you know what I'm saying.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: I would not say that the many people I worked with, including in 12-step meetings, right, were insensitive to my grief.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my grief story and my dad's death by suicide and because of addiction were part of my story.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I wouldn't say that people were insensitive to that, but people also were not sensitive to that in the way that they might be able to interact with or give me a space beyond me telling the story.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's an oversimplification.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I had deep talks with counselors, I had deep talks with people I encountered in the program and and in in life whose person had died of suicide.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So so it wasn't that was absent, but that was that was not ever front and center, except for in those in those conversations, you know, that I did that I did have because I spoke about my experience as part of my suffering, you know.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say that even though I had very good help, I had very skilled counselors, I had very good treatment, and I had you know a fantastic 12-step experience, you know, until I didn't.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um the there was never a moment, even even in my fifth step, I I talked about my you know, my reactions to to my dad's death, but there was never a moment when that was front and center in in any of it, and especially there was never a moment where someone made the space, or or I was able to make the space for me to focus on that in a way that was helpful to me as a grieving person, other than those exchanges I had and the ability to just speak about my suffering.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I think um you know that's a long answer, but part of the reason I'm doing what I'm doing now is precisely, you know, what what you're what you're talking about, precisely what you're talking about is one of my motivations for doing what I do now, is because that was missing, and there's a way for that not to be missing.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, bring awareness to it.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I I want to talk more about what you are doing now, um, because I think there's a lot of um like when I think about somebody who has turned their grief into growth, I mean you are the perfect example of that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And could you uh give us some, you know, and and said O D.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know that that's um, you know, a big big thing for you.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So would you be able to talk about that?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Woo.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, again, it's twenty twenty-seven years, you know, since that time I walked into a peer-reviewed support group.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think I think what I what I would say is that just what we were talking about, the focus was never on my grief.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: When I was in this depressive episode, for whatever reason, I wound up going to a suicide loss, peer grief support group, you know, because that's where, you know, I've said maybe oh go look at this, you know, or or or or whatever.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when I walked in uh and listened, it was a 90-minute uh meeting, uh, people talked about their experience of suicide in a way that I had never talked about mine, and nobody had ever talked to me about theirs, you know, except for in a few intimate, you know, conversations with people.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that is precisely what made me think made me go, okay, maybe I can he work on this.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Or I I that wasn't a conscious.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: thoughts.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, it didn't it inspired me to get involved as an activist.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: I guess what I would say to make you know to make that first part of the story, you know, not um tedious is that that experience itself turned me into an activist and an advocate.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And um I became a champion for the cause of community-based suicide prevention and and peer re support, but like not immediately, but pretty close pretty close to immediately.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then that became my life in short order.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I became you know I founded a nonprofit, a local nonprofit I founded two of them, one around suicide grief and one around um suicide prevention and one around addiction.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that led me to be long story, but from there I showed up everywhere and volunteered everywhere and I became a national advocate.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And in the course of that you know 15 years or whatever, I attended, you know, I became an I don't like to use expert, I like to do that quote mark thing about expert because my only expertise we say this my only expertise as a grief expert is in my own grief.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know but but I have this vast experience that enables me to listen to somebody else's grief and let it be what what it is.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that advocacy and activism caused first community-based suicide prevention to be I was a I was a consultant and then peer support to be um to be how I made a living that's how dot Don and I met you know um I was I was a contractor for tragedy assistance program for survivors and we met at uh at a suicide loss conference for military families.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: So now so that then it you you were the one that taught me uh you were the first one to teach me uh proper ways to facilitate a group um and um and so and and well that paid off for everybody yeah yeah so yeah yeah and you know just uh I just you know love to think of the relationships you know like ours you know that we've encountered on on this journey you know um well so that story you know brings me to a SATO D Support After Death by Overdose which is a statewide program project in Massachusetts for specifically for people who die from any any manner uh related to um addiction or drug drug drug and alcohol use and I continue also because so many in this category are also survivors of suicide loss so I continue to specialize in these two areas so you know SATO D's is it's I don't know if it's the only one like it in in the country or whatever because there's large peer grief support organizations the compassionate friends taps you know um the hospice network has a zillion you know peer peer grief helpers but we set up a statewide system of peer grief support what distinguishes SATO D from others is we have a statewide system that has every component of peer-based you know not not you know of you know whether you talk about one-on-one or small group or newsletter or psychoeduces or events or memorials or interconnection yeah you know we could we could just talk so over time we have set up uh an independent self-sustaining system of peer degree support in in mass and by self-sustaining I mean self-sustaining if we if we have the financial re resources you know we don't make money off of it so so yeah so that's what I wound up doing and interestingly well let me let's ask a you know a question or whatever about that because I think one one place we could go is just like my very latest you know the very latest debt development in that in that work you know because there's just a lot to that work you know I just really became immersed in the overdose epidemic you know starting in 2017 and you know it's just been a total total total experience you know that I still you know just really am immersed in so yeah why why don't you um talk about you know what the the newest um piece to what you're doing with people in recovery um yeah well um you know and I you know I hope you don't catch it but it's recovery and grief dash ma dot org recovery and grief one word dash ma.org well if you go there you will see the only resource I know of that is focused on pure suffer to death that is a yeah a breaking up again yeah you're freezing we've got to where was I stopping it I mean I think we got it all but it just it came in choppy so yep yep so if if you go to recoveryandgrief.org-ma and just look at the top half of the of the landing page you can really get oriented to a lot of things including you can learn more about SAT OD the logo for SAT OD support after death by overdose is in the mast head the logo for the sun will rise is in the mast head these are two partner organizations a for-profit and a not the for-profit is my company peer support community partners and the nonprofit is the Sun Will Rise we have begun to build the same kind of system within this system for specifically for people in recovery who are affected by a death you know that that alters their you know that that affects their their their recovery so it that that was launched on Monday you know so that's a couple years work increasingly increasingly becoming concrete until we've just we've just we're right in the middle of launching that which is kind of an interesting interesting time to be here but it is designed to to to be in summary it is designed to provide the same kind of complete system as we have in Massachusetts for people in recovery around around their grief.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: So um we're just at the beginning of of of that um well we're just at the beginning of of of launching it but there's a lot of foundational work in place and we know that people in recovery need special many need special support for people in recovery around grief and so this is established to provide that.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now is that is that nationwide or is that just Massachusetts as well?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's an interesting um an interesting question and on our front page we have we have a paragraph about that but basically um SATO D is funded by the Bureau of Substance Addiction Services in Massachusetts so all of our in person and all of our you know providing you with with materials you know that are sent to you or whatever you know that's in Massachusetts but because of the nature of the internet we're national so we have virtual support we you can go to a support group for people in recovery well you can go to 20 different online support groups for for for substance use loss you know so so we have a vast array of ways to get help that are internet based and we do our best I mean you know we we don't have funding specifically to do that but it but it comes as a you know as a as a part of what we already do and so we really emphasize you know making people if you show up in a support group and say you're from Vermont you know we don't say we're funded for Massachusetts or you know what I mean so so we have uh and again we don't we're not able to promote you know other than like this but you know our services you have to say yes are strictly for Massachusetts and you have to say no that's not at all how it turns out because we're on the internet so if you find something on the internet or you can contact us you know also and see if there's a way that we can be helpful you know there's some limitations but you know that's really the answer and our aspiration is absolutely to have a national program but it's hard to talk about that when you just launch the website you know but but you know I never started anything that I didn't have in mind um you know would would you know would evolve.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Franklin I wanted to ask you a question um just kind of circle the wagons there was a statement you made and and I might be putting this in my words but miracles are not necessarily instantaneous they could be progressive.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Those aren't that's not exactly the verbiage you used um but I I think that's kind of what you're hinting at and I I find that kind of interesting in the fact that we look at miracles like I I've had a miracle in my life uh when it comes to basically being able to survive this grief.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Five of us dads who'd lost children sat around a um my honor garden that I built in honor of my son uh last night and and I just looked at each of them and I was like man each one of us is a living miracle um but you don't know it it's that frog in the boiling pot of hot water uh at the time you don't realize it until retrospectively you look back like you were stating um I just find it an interesting concept because we don't really look at that as as progressive a lot of times.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well you know thanks for you know just sharing the scene about you know that circle of of people you know um affirming each other in that way because that really is the heart of the matter in terms of peer grief support and um you know I can't say how many people think of their survival let alone their recovery for not I don't want to use the term recovery for grief I say healing you know and that's a lifelong thing they they they look at that as a miracle and it feels like a miracle to them as do many people who have gotten into recovery.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: So so you know what what would I say about that you know the the thing that I say is that miracles are incremental and you can often only see them retrospectively you can only see them by looking back.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think what I mean is that every moment matters every moment matters and even when I was out there we use the term running and gunning you know which is kind of like slang you know out there using I every moment that that that demonstrated that I was in my addiction and was gonna die from it if I accumulated enough actions in my addiction beside those I was in my you know I went I I lived life and I got help and even if I relapsed four times in a decade I didn't lose a thing I lost something by relapsing I don't mean that but I mean that counted you know those moments and what happened in those moments counted so your whole life counts you know that that's what I would say we we we have this idea that well there's the bad part and there's the good part well okay but that's the whole time you know that's the whole time for everyone or everything you know so I would say that I see it as a as a miracle not so much because of something outwardly that happened but because I I I perceived that that is how my life is that I am who I am that I did what I did and that some of it was I don't know if a rated R or not but you know some of it was terrible some of it was terrible and some of it was absolutely life saving to me you know even even though I went back out again or even though I got another divorce or even though I abandoned my children for a year you know like there's stuff that was horrible and um at the same time and it's not like black and white but the things you're doing matter everything you do I do it matters.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know so so I would say that's what I mean that miracle isn't so much you know what happens to us that's the result but it's seeing that it all matters that it all matters every there's a positive valence and a negative valence to all of our emotions to all of our experiences you know so that's just a perception you know a miracle to me partly it's not that the outward thing that happens isn't important but it's a perception you know it's that you see oh this is how it works I'm okay even even if I'm doing these things that are not okay I'm a whole person you know I'm a whole person I'm not just that yeah you know I think that's that's that's a better explanation of it to me.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think I think you're referring to a discussion that I just had with one of um one of my clients that the um sometimes even the the things that appear to be bad the the perception that you know these are bad things that have happened uh can uh create the um opening for us to grow and to learn and to become the person that that we are meant to become um and uh it you know yeah we got to struggle through it we got to get through it but those are those are miracles when when we when we come to this realization that hey uh I got through that um you know there might be something else down the road but I I now have a little bit more courage and strength to deal with whatever is coming down the road.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah yeah and it's a it's a it's really uh a human art type uh you know like there's the idea that a person goes through the refiner's fire but it has to have to do with fire but that is absolutely about a person being burned up and then coming out the other side the same another archetype from myth is um the phoenix rising that's absolutely from ashes that from ashes a phoenix you know which is a glorious a glorious thing you know rises from it so it's it's a it's a human archetype psychologically spiritually emotionally that this is how it works you know this and it does not negate one bit the pain or the damage or the struggle or just the absolute terribleness yeah of whatever that bad stuff is that is still what it is it's that's not fixed that is not fixed you know that is not undone you know so you know frankly you mentioned the refiners fire I think just kind of in summation it was interesting uh two months before my son died I was leading a men's group in um it was you know probably a month long study I did uh Bible study on the refiners fire and two months later my son died totally forgot about you know that that whole study and about six months later I was going through some drawers and I came across my notes on that and it was like oh my gosh you know and it just became so real to me what I was going through uh at that point so I I think in summation um Don we like to ask you know for our listeners to leave us a little nugget of wisdom and and I think you've left it man every moment matters you know yeah yeah yeah but we would love for you to to you know put uh put in your words um yeah you know if you were to to leave our listeners with some nugget uh what would you those were her words well they were yes but I know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well yeah so let me just you know so what's what's happening here with the three of us is what matters that's what that means and so when I get together with two other people who are focused on grief in the way that we are focused on it then we become part of the circle of people that I'm healing with okay and whoever's listening to us who's opening it open to it you know is part of the circle of people that you're healing with the last thing that that I would leave with people is you are not you are not alone and prove that because here we are here we are okay you're not alone take that with you yeah that's good yeah you're not alone that's yeah that says it all good nugget yeah that says it all I I tell you um for our listeners um we thank you for dialing in and listening my daughter always says dad people don't dial into everyone podcast but Franklin thank you so much uh being our guest today and uh we want everybody to remember that this podcast is is about turning grief into growth it's the whole journey of transformation it's that aspect Franklin was talking about about uh healing sometimes you can't see it when you're in the middle of it sometimes it is retrospectively looking back on it like he'd mentioned so uh we thank everybody and until next time thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen we hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: And don't forget to follow, like or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time