Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / Graphic Novels in the Classroom:The Sunday Late Show With Huma Mirza & Toby Doncaster

Transcript

Graphic Novels in the Classroom:The Sunday Late Show With Huma Mirza & Toby Doncaster · Teachers Talk Radio

0:02
Thanks for watching live or listening back to this show from Teachers Talk Radio,
0:32
outstanding and world-class vision and world-class vision.
0:35
I'm a real leadership geek, honestly. I've spent my whole career reading books and chatting to people.
0:40
I just find the whole thing and the announcement, the way it's been announced bizarre.
0:44
If you could move away from a model where teachers are so intensely focused. Here.
0:50
Here. Here. Here. Here. Here.
0:55
Here.
0:57
And we're live. It's the Late Sunday Show with Huma and Toby,
1:04
and today's guests are John and Richard.
1:07
We're going to talk about graphic novels, how they work in the classroom,
1:12
how they promote reading, and all the other goodies that graphic novels bring to the curriculum.
1:19
John, how are you today?
1:22
Yeah, very well, Toby. Thank you. Yeah, I had quite a relaxing weekend so far.
1:26
I know, right? It's been brilliant.
1:28
I don't know what the weather's like where you are. We've had quite a lovely
1:31
day, a couple of days so far, and hopefully the bank holiday Monday is going
1:36
to be brilliant. Richard, how are you today?
1:39
Yeah, I'm good, thank you. I certainly can't complain with the sunshine we've
1:43
had over the last few days.
1:44
Definitely, definitely. And finally, Huma, how are you?
1:48
Well, thank you, Toby. It's an absolute pleasure to be here and hosting with
1:53
you for the very first time. I know. And John and Richard, welcome.
1:58
Yeah. John, tell us a bit about what you do and your interest in graphic novels.
2:04
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've been teaching for a long time now,
2:08
26 years, I think, no more than that.
2:10
And I've spent the last 15 years working in Norfolk. I'm an English lead.
2:15
I do a lot of work around reading for pleasure generally.
2:18
But I think over the last five or six years, I've increasingly come to understand
2:23
how important graphic novels are in the classroom.
2:25
I think part of that was because Richard and I were in adjacent classrooms for
2:28
five years, which was absolutely fantastic.
2:30
You know, we literally bounced off each other the whole time in terms of ideas
2:34
of how to use them effectively.
2:36
And I just think we need to think about how children's reading is changing and
2:40
the graphic novels are a huge part of that change, I think.
2:44
And yeah, what about you, Richard? So we've got this far, five years with John
2:50
in classrooms next to each other. What do you do at the moment?
2:54
So I'm also working in Norfolk, but sadly not in the same school as John anymore.
2:59
And I am reading lead my school and have been for the fifth year now, been in charge of that.
3:06
And I think for me, I was very lucky.
3:09
So I've been teaching about 13 years now, but I started working with John quite
3:16
near the beginning of my kind of teaching career.
3:19
And his work on reading for pleasure just in general really resonated with me
3:24
and helped me realize how reading played such a key role in my own education
3:29
but i kind of took it off in a slightly different direction with graphic novels
3:35
and comics and felt that maybe that was an area.
3:39
Schools neglected a bit i think
3:42
as he said once we were working in the room next to
3:45
each other it almost became kind of do he'll do
3:48
something with one type of book and i'd go and try it with them and it
3:51
just seemed to be successful so uh it's been something i've
3:54
been very passionate about now for quite a
3:57
while and something i'm trying to promote to anyone
4:00
that's willing to listen really yeah i'm willing
4:03
to listen uh i just wanted to ask what level
4:06
were you teaching was it key stage three key stage four richard
4:09
uh so key stage two uh okay
4:13
uh it really started this I suppose
4:16
passion for it when I was teaching in year three most of
4:20
it took place when I was in year six and then now I currently
4:23
teach year four so it kind of covers all of my experience okay yeah sure what
4:28
about you John what level are you teaching at at the moment currently year five
4:33
six mixed class which which is interesting the upper end of key stage two okay so.
4:41
Well, yeah, I'm trying to get graphic novels in my head because what I've been
4:47
reading so far, so I read Noughts and Crosses,
4:50
which I thought was a bit, I've read Noughts and Crosses and I've read another
4:56
book whose title is quite a long one.
4:59
I think it was The Faceless Brides by Naaman.
5:05
So basically what I'm trying to say is, when you mention graphic novels,
5:08
are you talking about text-heavy graphic novels or more what we know as cartoon, sort of comic books?
5:18
I would say it's a range of everything, to be honest.
5:21
Uh-huh, sure. Even at that early age, you can go and find some for children
5:26
in Key Stage 1 that are wordless or very on the word level and focus,
5:32
you know, maybe like a picture book kind of amount.
5:34
Sure. But then you can go and find a book, thinking about a book like When Stars
5:38
Are Scattered, which has been a really popular book in schools because it tackles,
5:44
you know, some hard-hitting topics like people being refugees and the kind of
5:48
struggles they go through.
5:50
But in such a sensitive and accessible way that children in year sort of four,
5:55
five, and six can have some amazingly powerful conversations and do work related
6:00
to it without feeling overwhelmed or unsure of what they've just read.
6:08
It makes it so clear what's happened in it and the delicateness required in these subjects.
6:14
Sure. So when you say delicate subjects, what sort of things would you touch
6:18
upon with a book like that?
6:21
I mean, it covers a lot, that book, to be fair.
6:26
It's based on people in a refugee camp trying to get to prosperity,
6:31
so they're trying to make it to America.
6:33
But as part of that, it looks at kind of unfair gender treatment.
6:38
So the girls who are forced out of education at quite a young age.
6:41
Yeah it looks at perhaps the lack of support and funding that maybe we think those people receive.
6:49
Kind of the difficultiness of the or
6:53
fairness of getting out maybe to reach your end goal
6:56
and maybe what happens to those who get stuck in
6:59
the camps or don't get where they'd like to and that kind of aspirational struggle
7:05
but in a way that you know a sort of nine ten year old can can access it and
7:11
gain a clearer understanding and i think if i'm going to add to that i think,
7:16
one of the most powerful things about graphic novels
7:19
i mean there are there are lots which we'll go into later but i think one of
7:22
the most powerful is is how they can support the wider curriculum i
7:25
mean rich richard there has just talked about you know ways that a graphic
7:28
novel can support the rshe curriculum but there are also
7:31
some fantastic ones where you know we would use teaching use them
7:34
for the teaching of history you know to get that visual timeline of
7:37
things that are taking place we can use them in science there's some
7:39
fantastic books being published graphic novel non-fiction books about
7:42
science at the moment so i think it's they can be used to underpin the wider
7:47
curriculum as well as just for reading for pleasure and for english opportunities
7:50
and i think perhaps that's the area where they haven't been utilized as effectively
7:56
maybe as they could be over the past few years and hopefully that is that is changing at the moment,
8:01
So, yeah, what is the range of subjects?
8:07
So you've mentioned science, you've mentioned history, English,
8:10
which is my particular interest. Anything else?
8:14
I think there truly is all things covered in the media.
8:20
At the minute, there's been a real boom in what you'd call maybe the more humorous
8:26
and comedy-based ones for earlier readers.
8:28
So work of people like Jamie Smart and Dav Pilkey is regularly on the bestsellers
8:34
charts with books like Bunny vs. Monkey and Dogman.
8:39
But then at the opposite end of the scale, you have books like Speak Up,
8:45
which covers kind of someone with neurodivergence being selective mute and how
8:52
they're expressing themselves differently.
8:54
You have books like Allergic and Squished, which looks at different sort of
8:59
family dynamics and how that can impact on day-to-day life.
9:04
Or even this one read a couple of years ago called Alterations, which looks at kind of.
9:11
Adapting to life in a new country and the struggles with stereotypes and
9:14
you know the cultural pressures but you
9:17
can also go and read one about cute cuddly animals you
9:21
know just being friends or hanging out together i think
9:25
where perhaps they're most powerful is is supporting the
9:28
rsh and citizenship curriculum because yes
9:32
because they they can explore so many different things they can explore identity
9:35
they can support gender they can support race there's there's so many themes
9:39
but because they do it in a different way in a way that's visually accessible
9:43
to to readers yeah they can bring on board so many children perhaps who wouldn't
9:48
have otherwise been able to
9:49
engage if it was just a piece of prose and i think you know we we use them,
9:54
not always using a whole graphic novel but sometimes it might
9:57
be a case of just using a double page from a graphic novel even
10:00
two or three panels sometimes even a single panel is enough
10:03
you know i i use there's one i use quite regularly which is a graphic novel
10:07
called i survived and it's about the sinking of the titanic in 1912 and there's
10:12
just one panel there that i use which shows the people standing on the deck
10:16
as the ship is actually sinking realizing that there's not enough lifeboats
10:19
and the conversation and the discussion that comes from that is,
10:23
very very powerful because that that because you've got the image there of the
10:27
lifeboats going into the sea and and there being too many people standing on
10:30
the deck you know as soon as that combination of the of the visual aspect of
10:34
it as well as the as the text and if you need both of those things,
10:37
I think, to put together that coherent narrative, I guess.
10:41
Yeah, I suppose that's what's missing in my classrooms, if you like.
10:46
With adults, I can give them a text and they can read and access it,
10:52
whereas with the 16 to 19 retake, GCSE, English language retake students,
10:58
you know, there's already an issue with accessing the text and trying to understand
11:03
what exactly is going on before we can even discuss things like language technique
11:08
and structure and everything else. Yeah.
11:11
Whereas something that's graphic is just that. Yeah, Lola.
11:15
I wanted to ask, if I walk into your classrooms, Richard and John,
11:22
what would graphic novel teaching look like?
11:26
And how do you sort of link it to reading for pleasure in your schools?
11:31
Can I? I'll start there, I think, if that's all right, Richard.
11:34
Yeah, you can. Thank you.
11:37
I think first of all I think I think we need to acknowledge how,
11:41
how much they can underpin a
11:44
classroom reading culture because they tend to be quite short because
11:47
they can be read quite quickly you can often have a graphic novel make its way
11:51
round a class within you know two weeks and then those children have got some
11:54
commonality they've got something there that they can talk about and it's not
11:57
just about the reading of the graphic novels in itself it's the conversations
12:01
that lead from those it's it's the discussions that take place you then get
12:06
on to the point where children are genuinely making recommendations to each
12:11
other. Oh, I've just read this graphic novel. Have you tried this one?
12:14
And that sort of underpins the whole classroom reading community, I think.
12:18
I think it's also an area where they genuinely are the experts.
12:22
I mean, I read a lot of graphic novels and comics.
12:24
Richard reads far more than I do, but there's no way that either of us can keep
12:28
up with all the different texts that are being published.
12:31
I might read the first two or three books in the series, but there's no
12:33
way I'm going be able to read all of them but there will be children in
12:36
the class who have their own areas of expertise i
12:39
suppose you know i've got a child this year who's really passionate
12:42
about reading manga she's someone that the rest of the class turn to in terms
12:46
of oh have you got any manga recommendations for me um i've got other children
12:50
who really enjoyed books by certain authors so i think it's it's an important
12:54
way to to make the child at the center of that classroom reading community.
13:00
You mentioned you read graphic novels. Which ones were your favorite as a child?
13:05
And do you recommend, you know, your favorite reads to the children?
13:09
I'm very old. For me, there weren't that many.
13:15
I mean, there was obviously the sort of Asterix and Tintin.
13:18
But for me, it was very much about comics. I remember, and I think I can even
13:22
remember, I think it was on a Wednesday, I used to get the dandy delivered and
13:26
on a Thursday, it was the Beano.
13:28
And then, you know, my grandparents would have old copies of other comics like
13:32
Whizzer and Chips and things like that.
13:34
And my introduction to the whole world of graphic novels, I think,
13:37
was actually through reading comics more than anything else.
13:39
And I think even going through secondary school, going through my first part
13:44
of my teaching career, graphic novels certainly didn't have the prevalence that
13:48
they've got at the moment.
13:49
You know, there might have been a few, but I don't remember them being a big
13:52
part of my early teaching career at all.
13:55
I don't know, Richard, you're a bit younger than me.
13:58
Well, probably the interesting thing is actually what I read was exactly the
14:02
same as what you've just listed.
14:04
So I would go to the library every
14:05
Saturday. I would always get either an Asterix book or a Tintin book.
14:10
We'd go with several other, you know, probably more just standard storybooks
14:15
type of thing. I always had a mix.
14:17
And I also used to read The Beano particularly and sometimes Dandy.
14:21
And then I got to the age, probably like 10, 11, where I'd read all of those.
14:26
Maybe was starting to think I'm a bit too old for like The Beano or something now.
14:30
And I had no one there to say to me, here is that same style, but with other content.
14:36
And I always look back to when I was a teenager because I read nonstop kind
14:42
of as a child till about 11, 12.
14:44
And then it definitely became a drop in my reading.
14:49
And I think probably because I struggled to find texts that really appealed to me.
14:54
And by the time I got to university age, I wasn't really reading anything for
14:58
pleasure at all, because I don't want to read that or not.
15:02
And actually, if someone had been able to point me in the direction of some
15:06
of the stuff I'm now reading, whilst I catch up on missed years,
15:11
or like, oh, this is that text that's a classic that I've never read.
15:16
I think i would have been really receptive to it because
15:19
you know it is to do with like sometimes concentration or
15:22
you're thinking i haven't got time or and actually
15:25
graphic novels are the perfect way for me if i've had
15:28
a busy day or i'm looking for something to
15:31
take my mind off you know whatever's swirling around
15:34
it etc they for me are like the perfect escapism because
15:37
i can really lose myself in it and it absorbs me into
15:40
the other world but there was no signpost and
15:43
i think as john said with his they weren't really that
15:46
easily available and the attitude was
15:49
kind of oh it's only superheroes and if
15:52
you read about them then you're probably
15:55
you know someone who's lesser in society or something because
15:58
you're just reading about superheroes as an adult and whilst
16:01
i do enjoy reading about superheroes as an
16:03
adult there's so many other amazing stories
16:07
and worlds you can escape into that you
16:10
just need to know are there really yeah i think
16:14
you've raised a really really important point there about there is still a sense
16:18
perhaps the graphic novels are not always considered as real reading they they
16:23
simplify things and actually i think i would challenge that quite strongly professionally
16:28
but quite strongly in terms of actually when when you look at them.
16:32
There are, you look at the words included in graphic novels.
16:35
I mean, there have been studies done mostly by universities in America that
16:38
say that a graphic novel compared to a prose text, which is aimed at the same age group,
16:44
actually contains more difficult, more challenging words than the prose text does.
16:48
I mean, that's partly because you can scaffold the understanding with the illustrations
16:52
that go alongside it as well.
16:53
And I think, you know, that's key. So, and certainly they're not dumbing down
16:57
language or reading, what they are doing is updating it, I think.
17:03
Because actually, when you look at the way our children access the world these
17:06
days, everything is multimode.
17:08
All the way that they navigate websites and things, it's the images alongside the text.
17:12
And I think that's the skill that graphic novels and comics help them to develop.
17:18
So, yeah, I mean, they are real reading. I think they are perhaps some of the
17:23
most real reading actually children do at the moment.
17:26
It's interesting you say that. This show is brought to you in partnership with
17:29
Hashit Learning, publishers of professional development books and resources
17:33
that support great teaching and learning in schools around the world.
17:37
Level up your professional development today and visit hashitlearning.com to
17:40
explore the full range of titles.
17:43
Okay, so we were talking about graphic novels being real reading, and I quite agree.
17:50
Like I said, I wanted to read the novel, Noughts and Crosses,
17:56
and I ended up finding the graphic novel and thinking, hey, let's be introduced
18:00
to it that way. And it worked for me.
18:03
Huma, you had a question that you wanted to ask.
18:06
Yes. Before the ad break, I was just
18:09
going to say that John raised such an interesting point
18:12
because i remember when i was in school i
18:15
liked reading comic books and i'm not sure if you remember
18:18
archie and veronica the comic
18:22
oh yeah archie yeah toby knows
18:25
what i'm talking about anyway john if
18:28
you get a chance you need to you need to you know google archie and veronica
18:33
and i remember that if you get caught reading you know comic book in in class
18:39
our teacher would tell us to put that book straight away because it wasn't considered,
18:44
you know, proper reading.
18:46
And there are many teachers out there still who feel that way,
18:51
who feel that graphic novels are not considered real reading.
18:56
The language in it is too simplified.
18:58
So, and I have come across a few leaders like that. So what would you say to them?
19:04
How would you want leaders to use graphic novels in schools today?
19:12
I think one of the things you need to do is bring it back to outcomes, don't you?
19:16
I mean, if you've got a pupil who previously avoided reading,
19:19
who is now reading, they might only be reading graphic novels at the moment.
19:22
You know, they will be developing their reading stamina, they'll be developing
19:25
their reading confidence.
19:26
You know, that is real reading. I also think, and I'll refer back to this,
19:30
there was a study carried out by the national literature
19:33
trust a couple of years ago which showed that children
19:36
who read graphic novels tend to read
19:39
much more widely anyway so i think
19:42
it was something that 60 percent of children who read graphic novels enjoy reading
19:45
for pleasure compared to about 35 percent who don't and it doesn't you know
19:49
it doesn't mean that they're only reading graphic novels but graphic novels
19:52
can be a gateway into other things they don't always have to be There are some
19:57
children who find that they prefer graphic novels and will continue to read
20:01
graphic novels, and that is just as valid.
20:03
I think we need to look at the impacts they are actually having in the classroom at the moment.
20:08
There is more and more work being done, which shows how crucial they are as
20:12
part of the classroom reading diet.
20:16
I think building on that one. Yeah. No, go on.
20:20
I was just going to say, I think if you look at, you know, the basic concepts
20:25
of reading for pleasure is people choosing to read for enjoyment.
20:29
If you go into most school libraries now, if they have a graphic novel section,
20:34
that will almost permanently be depleted because when they are going in to make their choice.
20:40
That is the book they are choosing, or those are the ones they want to reread
20:43
or share in those kind a small community.
20:46
So I know our school, we're quite lucky. We have a good librarian and we have
20:50
a decent sized library for our pupils.
20:53
And if you go into our library, there's all sorts of books being borrowed,
20:56
but the graphic novel shelf will never have more than about a quarter of what
21:00
it should on it, no matter how many more we buy or anything like that.
21:05
Because when the children go in and they have that independent choice without
21:08
us guiding or what's in the classroom library dictating, that is the book they
21:14
tend to feel they're enjoying or they're more comfortable with.
21:18
And I think particularly for those children who may be less confident or reading
21:22
can be difficult, there is a sense that the book is more welcoming or can be
21:28
less intimidating perhaps than,
21:30
you know, you open 300 pages of nonstop text, you find me on the right day,
21:36
I'm going to open that and say, not today, I haven't got the stamina for this.
21:40
But actually opening a book and it's maybe a bit smaller there's
21:43
pictures there might be color the text is broken up
21:46
it might be like oh i can have a go at that and then you have
21:49
a go they succeed the confidence builds and it's a real knock-on and when they're
21:53
enjoying reading they're going to read and at the end of the day whatever you're
21:58
reading is reading we wouldn't complain if someone only read poetry we wouldn't
22:03
complain if they only read non-fiction we'd probably be like oh,
22:06
they're interested in that.
22:07
Graphic novels have the same value and are kind of in the same position as far as I'm concerned.
22:12
So how can graphic novels then strengthen inference and deeper reading skills, do you think?
22:25
Well, if I was to put it bluntly, it's really hard to read one without those skills.
22:31
But in a more kind of nuanced way, when you're reading a graphic novel,
22:35
a lot of the time you are filling in the blanks without realizing it.
22:38
Because every page doesn't want to be filled with text. Even the text-heavy
22:44
ones, they like to put breaks in or ease off.
22:46
So they need the images to tell some of the story for you or to make sure you're on board.
22:53
And therefore, when you're reading one, you're often looking at facial expressions,
22:57
you're looking at maybe the background in the image,
23:00
a change in color, for example, even things like little motion lines around
23:05
things like eyes or bodies to show maybe a change in characters',
23:12
behavior or mood, and you're going, oh, that must mean this is happening,
23:15
or, oh, okay, I was right when I thought that was going to happen next.
23:19
So you're kind of constantly in a state of actually either confirming that you're
23:24
on the right path by having those things to back you up, or using them to be
23:29
like, oh, I think this might happen because I noticed this.
23:32
So the one that sticks in my mind is in...
23:36
The book Guts by Raina Telgemeier, there's a bit where the character goes to
23:40
speak to someone about the anxiety they're suffering.
23:43
And we can see all of a sudden there's kind of jittery lines everywhere.
23:47
The character's eyes are looking kind of different and you're going,
23:51
all right, I can really pick up. This is how she's feeling.
23:54
She's not comfortable. And it's just reinforcing it.
23:57
And I think particularly with those children who are less confident,
23:59
it's almost like a sign posts of like, yeah, you were right, actually.
24:05
Whereas some of those details might be missed in a text or the language might
24:08
be a bit complex and there's not that picture to back it up to help you go,
24:13
oh, I think it means this.
24:15
I can see that's happening. Actually, it must do. Or in my case,
24:18
sometimes, you know, when I'm reading is for me to go, oh, I was completely wrong.
24:24
I can now see this is happening. Actually, I'll flip back. Oh yeah,
24:27
that was in the background there or that was happening, that was a sign of there.
24:32
So you're constantly using those kinds of skills, but you're not necessarily.
24:36
But you're not picking it up and going, oh, I'm going to practice my inference skill today.
24:40
It's just happening. Yeah, I agree with that.
24:44
I also think sometimes you do need to teach children how to actually read a
24:49
graphic novel because I've seen children reading them who just fly through the
24:53
dialogue without actually using the images alongside so they're not getting
24:57
a full understanding of actually what's happening in the text.
25:00
Even showing them that sometimes the panels will flow in different ways.
25:05
Sometimes they'll flow horizontally.
25:07
Sometimes they'll flow vertically. you know there are there are specific
25:10
techniques to reading graphic novels in the classroom i think
25:12
once children have learned them and they are learning them i think far more
25:16
quickly perhaps than they used to simply because of the way they read other
25:19
things that they find them far more accessible i think sometimes it's harder
25:23
for a for an older person perhaps to understand how graphic novels work you
25:27
know we we have some we have some manga in the class for example and and that
25:32
and that still throws people the fact that it's actually read from from right to left and
25:36
you know the panels go the other way and it is really
25:39
really important for them to have those skills because it's about
25:41
reading what's happening between the panels as
25:44
well as richard was saying you need to make those inferences
25:48
yourself you know because the panels will often switch scene from one scene
25:52
to another one you know whatever the transition might be and actually it won't
25:55
tell you like it would in a piece of prose a few minutes later you know they
25:59
went onto the spaceship or whatever they did you've got to make that assumption
26:01
for yourself you've got to infer that from what's happening in the pictures.
26:05
So it is that combination of
26:07
the visual tech literacy and the written literacy that the children need.
26:15
I know. I'm really getting into this.
26:20
What I was going to ask, what are the transferable skills from graphic novels to, say,
26:27
you know, novels or short stories, you know, because we were mentioning about
26:32
the inferencing skills, you know, by reading the emotions and so on in graphic novels.
26:38
How do students transfer that to books?
26:43
I think one of the big things they pick up on is the idea of a whole narrative
26:48
art in terms of, you know, they can read a graphic novel, might only take them
26:52
half an hour, but they will have encountered every part of a story there.
26:55
So when they are reading a prose text, they will have an understanding of the
26:59
beginning of the setting, the scene of how a story actually evolves and how
27:04
it develops. I think that's one of the key things.
27:06
There are lots of ways, to be honest. Richard, could you add anything to that?
27:10
I think I would add in they become better and more confident at spotting the clues.
27:15
So if we're thinking about inference, sometimes if
27:18
you just give a piece of text the language could be complex or
27:21
it might be the way it's written you know there's many different factors and
27:24
they may miss a clue or they may think it's not as
27:27
important but because if you're reading them
27:30
even in a just for pleasure way you're often using the clues to help you it
27:35
improves the ability to sort of look at a sentence or a paragraph or a passage
27:39
and say oh that must mean that because this was said or that and i i think recently
27:45
there's also been an improvement in graphic novels,
27:48
ensuring they do look to develop vocabulary,
27:52
particularly at sort of the ones aimed at around about seven,
27:56
eight years old, maybe a bit older.
27:59
There's been a lot of the American ones have made a real point of including
28:03
some high-level vocab and then modelling,
28:07
A, misconceptions or misspellings, and B, showing it correctly in use,
28:12
which also helps to build that transference to when the pictures are removed.
28:18
It builds that kind of skill of like, oh, what context could help me work this out?
28:22
Or perhaps, is there anything else around this as a support?
28:25
And, you know, I think you do see it, children who read them,
28:29
now that children may be being allowed to read them more at a slightly younger age,
28:35
and it's becoming a habit, when they go through, they do seem more confident
28:39
answering those kinds of questions because they understand a bit better about
28:43
how they came to that thought or that belief with the text.
28:48
I think they're also fantastic for introducing lots of other literary devices
28:52
like metaphors and symbolism.
28:55
There's all kinds of different levels of reading a graphic novel.
28:58
I think those skills are then transferable to prose text as well.
29:04
Definitely. We've got a couple of comments. Sorry, Huma, we've got a couple of comments coming.
29:10
Share the comments in a minute, because I have been really looking forward to
29:13
asking, can you share the journey of, you know, maybe some students in your
29:19
class whose attitude towards reading has changed ever since you've introduced graphic novels?
29:25
Because I know, John, both John
29:27
and Richard have done a great deal of work around reading for pleasure.
29:32
So it will be really interesting to let our listeners hear what you have done in the classrooms.
29:38
I think Richard's got a classic story. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about, Richard.
29:43
I'll leave you with that one then. So I used to teach a child who came into my class in year six.
29:50
And at that stage was an avid, I don't read, I don't like reading.
29:56
They were dyslexic and they also had recently been diagnosed as autistic at the time and were quite,
30:04
oppositional in ways but some of that was
30:07
due to the fear because reading was so difficult so
30:10
they would often you know they might go to the shelf and they might pick up
30:13
the biggest book you had on your bookshelf flick through a couple pages and
30:17
go oh this is rubbish this is boring put it back yeah but you know it was because
30:21
it was so tricky and you could give them an overlay and all of that but reading
30:25
was a challenge for them and they found it hard.
30:28
This was around about the time I was just starting to sort of say,
30:31
hang on a minute, there's a bit of traction with these graphic novels. So they actually...
30:36
Sort of worked with me, had a go at reading one and quickly realized that was
30:41
more welcoming, a bit friendlier for them.
30:44
And then together we maybe tried a few others out and it was a bit of guesswork on my part.
30:49
There was definitely a few I bought that were not successful,
30:52
but as the year went on, they actually became quite the spokesman in the class
30:57
for promoting them and also stealing some of John's box set next door that I didn't own yet.
31:03
But, you know, children would come to my classroom asking for a book and they
31:06
would be up out of their seat i think you should go and read this one
31:09
trust me it's really good and then
31:12
as a knock-on of that their mum started to realize that
31:15
they were really improving their attitude towards reading and it was proving
31:19
less like combative because there had been arguments and stuff in the past and
31:23
it had caused behavioral issues sometimes so mum started going to the library
31:27
and searching out graphic novels to read at home together or for them to read independently,
31:33
which then obviously created another new reading network and community, which was lovely.
31:39
And mum would sometimes come and show me and be like, oh, we read this one.
31:42
You know, they enjoyed that or like, oh, don't know about this.
31:46
And by the end of the year, they'd gone from kind of hating reading and it being
31:50
a real struggle to, you know, reading time.
31:54
They would come in, get a book out, sit down. And by the end of the year,
31:58
they certainly had made their way through somewhere between 20 to 30 graphic
32:02
novels, if not a few more.
32:04
But they'd also encouraged other children.
32:07
They'd improved the variety of texts some children would read because they may be a bit narrow-minded.
32:12
They had to become an advocate of it rather
32:15
than oppositional and trying to avoid it
32:18
like they had at the start yeah and from
32:21
a bystander's point of view it was a really powerful journey to watch because
32:25
you know as richard said this child wasn't into reading at all and by the end
32:28
of year six she did view herself as a reader and that was huge because she then
32:33
took that up with her to secondary school she she had been successful as a reader
32:37
over the years she recommended books to other people. She had read books herself.
32:41
She had had quite a significant influence, I think, on your classroom reading
32:44
culture, hadn't she, Richard, really?
32:45
Well, absolutely. And that maybe had been something that hadn't happened before.
32:50
Like, didn't feel she had that power or that kind of ability to influence in that way.
32:56
And inspired by you both, I have created a section in my classroom where I've
33:01
bought some new graphic novels for my students.
33:05
And, oh my word, you know, the attitude and the shift, I've seen a real shift.
33:11
So I'm going to share some really exciting stuff with you, John.
33:16
And you'll be really pleased to see, you know, the change that I have noticed
33:21
in my classroom. Always a pleasure. It's amazing.
33:25
I think this is an interesting one. 80 copies of Dogman on our shelves,
33:29
but there may be a choice of only three every morning. Wow.
33:34
You know. Yeah, I've bought some Dogman series for students in my class and
33:40
they are really enjoying it. Yeah.
33:43
I think there are certain series that take off.
33:46
I mean, Dogman is one, Bunny vs. Monkey, Amulet. There are some that just capture
33:50
the children's imagination. I think what's also exciting is when they're finding
33:54
new ones that we don't know about, and they're kind of leading that as well.
33:58
I did see someone said they didn't remember any graphic novels as a child,
34:01
but remember reading Twinkle and the Bunty.
34:03
I also used to read Twinkle because my sister got it, so that was what I remember as well.
34:10
So what, you know, I mean, obviously we don't know, or we'd like to know,
34:16
but what does capture their imagination?
34:19
You know is there is there a magic wand that can say hey you know what this
34:25
is going to work as opposed to this doesn't work.
34:32
Yeah, I think there are certain things that work better. I think,
34:35
first of all, they like funny ones.
34:38
I know it's a massive generalization, but also stories with narrative depth
34:42
as well, just like with any other text, ones where the visual storytelling is really clear.
34:48
I mean, there are some graphic novels where you have to work really,
34:51
really hard to follow what's going on. And some children are happy to do that.
34:55
Some children actually want it to be quite clear. books
34:59
that can be re-read as well i think are valuable you know they love reading
35:02
a series then going back to the beginning of it and i
35:05
think the other key thing is is diverse diversity and
35:07
representation you know we have certain graphic novels that are
35:10
hugely popular there's one
35:13
that's done the rounds in my classroom that came out
35:16
earlier this year called almost sunset and it's about a boy who absolutely
35:20
loves football but he has to weigh that up against the fact that he's
35:23
fasting because it because it's ramadan and it and
35:26
it's it's it it opened my pupils eyes
35:29
in a way perhaps that they hadn't been aware of
35:32
before they loved the fact that it was about football but they were also learning
35:35
about another culture in a way that was exciting and accessible to them so i
35:40
think they're the ones the ones that have got that that depth that richness
35:44
that perhaps a little bit of complexity as well i mean they're also the the
35:48
ones where there's lots of poo jokes and things which do capture their attention too.
35:52
But for me, it's the ones where they can actually take away something from it
35:56
and think about it, talk about it with their friends, have those discussions.
36:00
And I think what you do see over time is when three or four children have read
36:04
the same graphic novel, those conversations happen almost more organically,
36:10
I think, with graphic novels and comics than they do with other types of books.
36:13
They might be sharing favorite pages from the book. It might be talking about
36:16
which characters they liked. But it's those spontaneous conversations I think,
36:20
which make it really powerful.
36:23
Just going to say i think jumping on that i think the fact you can easily
36:26
see if you are represented in the book as well you haven't
36:29
got a way to text or something you can just flick through and see like oh that
36:32
person looks like me etc so i'm thinking of books like el defo where the character
36:37
has hearing impairment and i know someone whose daughter has something similar
36:42
and she was sort of saying how that was her daughter's favorite book because
36:45
it was like that is me i i feel so kind of seen in this world.
36:49
And Almost Sunset has been a big one in my class as well, where I've got several
36:54
children who loved it because it represented their reality of following the religion.
36:59
But there was other children who were like, oh, this is what's happening at
37:01
the moment. I now have a better understanding of that.
37:04
But they also loved football. So it combined kind of something they loved,
37:08
but also broadened their horizons.
37:12
So this show is brought to you in partnership with Hashit Learning,
37:15
Publishers are professional development books and resources that support great
37:19
teaching and learning in schools around the world.
37:22
Level up your professional development today and visit hashitlearning.com to
37:26
explore the full range of titles.
37:31
This is Teachers Talk Radio. And this is Teachers Talk Radio.
37:43
Covers the University of Sussex's successful appeal against a record £585,000
37:49
fine and court ruling that it had infringed on lawful freedom of speech.
37:55
Last year, the Office for Students handed down the fine and claimed the university
38:00
had breached its trans and non-binary inclusion policy.
38:03
The investigation came after Professor of Philosophy Kathleen Stark left her
38:08
job at the university following student protests about her views on gender and biological sex.
38:15
The Office for Students regulator said it would take time to consider whether
38:19
to appeal the new judgement and its findings, but the University of Sussex vice-chancellor
38:25
said she was delighted at the outcome.
38:28
Full details of the story can be found on the BBC News Family and Education website.
38:34
Schools Week say that ministers are set to get softer on English and maths GCSE
38:38
re-sit entries, but tougher on results.
38:42
The current condition of funding policy forces 16 to 19-year-olds without a
38:47
grade 4 in English and maths to continue studying these subjects.
38:51
Colleges say this drives endless resits.
38:55
Ministers say they accept that progress towards Level 2 in the core subjects
38:59
happens in a complex environment and is not always captured by blunt exam outcomes.
39:06
The government is now proposing changes designed to make greater fair representation
39:11
of student progress while reinforcing high standards to sharpen accountability.
39:17
The most immediately welcomed proposal is likely to be a softening of the penalty
39:22
applied when students are not entered for English or Maths exams,
39:27
previously criticised by many post-16 providers as incentivising premature resits.
39:34
Further proposals are also included in the article, which can be found on the Schools Week website.
39:40
The Guardian reports that half of England's schools are unfit due to leaks,
39:45
mould and faulty toilets, according to a survey by the NAHT union.
39:50
Other issues included in the survey are asbestos, ageing boilers and malfunctioning fire doors.
39:57
Toilets, however, are reported as a main issue with 73% saying they are in need
40:03
of replacement or repair but that schools lack the funds to do so.
40:08
Next on the list at 41% were facilities for pupils with SEND which some schools
40:14
say are unfit or out of use.
40:18
The findings come at a time when government is proposing reforms to the SEND
40:22
system which will require mainstream schools to expand provision for pupils with SEND.
40:28
The poll had 326 participants but the union says it still provides a vivid picture
40:35
of the problems faced by headteachers.
40:38
More details and comment from union leaders can be found online.
40:42
Finally, the BBC says a university is to offer an innovative degree course under
40:48
a two-day-a-week study model designed to attract students put off by irregular timetables or by cost.
40:56
University College Birmingham will guarantee students on-campus learning on
41:00
the same two consecutive days per week.
41:04
The university says the courses, ranging from one to three years in length,
41:08
are designed to appeal to students within a one to two hour commute.
41:13
Courses will include criminology, finance and business, as well as many others,
41:18
and include a one-night overnight campus stay.
41:22
Full details can be found on the BBC. This has been Teachers Talk Radio News
41:27
with… And we're back in the studio. Huma, you had a question.
41:32
I did have a question. I wanted to ask John and Richard if teachers are looking
41:41
for graphic novels to introduce to their children.
41:45
What should they look for when choosing high-quality texts?
41:51
I think we perhaps have touched on this very slightly in terms of talking about
41:55
narrative richness and that kind of thing.
41:59
But I guess if you're a school where graphic novels are not particularly embedded,
42:04
I mean, I would start off by thinking about building a core collection,
42:07
not just the graphic novel shelf, but actually making it integral to everything
42:11
that's happening in the school.
42:13
Also making sure that they're read aloud and talked about in book talk sessions,
42:18
make sure that there are recommendations visible, make sure they're part of
42:20
displays around the school but i think the other
42:23
big thing is and this is always going to be a challenge because of
42:26
the time that teachers are under is making staff familiar with them
42:29
and getting them to understand the value of graphic novels
42:31
i mean i always dream of a staff meeting where where we literally just sit there
42:36
and read graphic novels for half an hour you know we we do manage to do a couple
42:40
of those every year because because they're so so valuable and actually you
42:43
know even if a teacher's only got a small bank of graphic novels to to draw
42:48
on and to recommend to pupils,
42:50
they've got something. They can take part in those conversations.
42:53
They can be part of that classroom reading community.
42:56
But I guess my other piece of advice would be to actually listen to the pupils
42:59
because their insight, their enthusiasm, their expertise is what's going to lead the way, I think.
43:05
In terms of specific books, I think it goes back to what Richard was saying
43:10
about visible representation. I think it goes back to narrative as well.
43:15
I mean, some graphic novels are great fun to read.
43:18
That there are just almost 150 pages of jokes where there is,
43:22
you know, which are great.
43:24
Again, you need those. There is definitely a place for those,
43:26
but you also need that balance of ones where they are telling a coherent story as well.
43:31
What I have done is, John, like you said, I've taken recommendations from children
43:35
who really enjoy reading and I've compiled a list.
43:39
And I've gone through that list and I've selected the books for them.
43:42
And like I said, I'll be sharing something really exciting with you later.
43:47
Later tonight? Or at what point?
43:49
At some point tonight. I'm not quite ready yet, but still in the process of setting it all up.
43:55
But, you know, this is really interesting how children in my class and my school
44:05
have a real appetite for reading graphic novels.
44:09
And it's so important to encourage them because some of the boys don't like
44:13
reading the heavy texts. They like the visuals.
44:17
They like the, you know, sometimes the simplicity of the language because they
44:21
can sort of understand what is being said.
44:24
The pictures tell a different story and
44:27
it's i have i have started enjoying
44:30
them as a teacher but that's you
44:34
know thanks to you john for pointing in direction thank you can i ask you a
44:40
question have you have you had much pushback from parents because we sometimes
44:43
i found that that can also be a challenge or you know should they be taking
44:47
home graphic novels and my answer is yes, absolutely they should.
44:51
But I know we have to sometimes explain why that isn't justified almost.
44:56
No, I haven't had any pushback from parents. In fact, I've had a student in
45:01
my class and his parents have bought him the entire Dogman series and brings
45:07
it into class to share it with, you know, the other students.
45:10
So it has been a real positive, actually.
45:13
I think so. And I'm going to encourage it. And I've got into reading a few. I bought one.
45:21
It's a graphic novel. is really interesting about Anne-France's diary,
45:26
but it's written in a graphic novel format, and I found that really interesting,
45:32
you know, for year six students.
45:35
Yes. Over to you, Toby.
45:37
Okay, so we're delving into what young readers would like.
45:42
So my burning question is, help me develop reading for 16 to 19-year-olds.
45:51
What do I do where do I start what do you think I think,
45:57
At the minute, manga, as John has mentioned a few times, with teenagers, is proving huge.
46:03
And it can be tricky because manga has some very challenging content at times.
46:10
That's right, yeah. It certainly makes it easier.
46:12
My piece of advice to anyone would be, if you look on the back of a manga book,
46:16
there will usually be a letter that represents the age it's aimed at.
46:20
So it'll have an A for all ages or a T for teen, etc.
46:25
Oh, okay. That would certainly be one place that I would be looking because...
46:32
Can I just add one thing about manga, Richard, and then go back to you?
46:36
There's also almost a whole subculture of online manga websites as well.
46:41
It doesn't have to be a physical graphic novel. They can be reading manga online,
46:46
and I know there are children that do that.
46:47
Again, it goes back to what Richard says about them being age-appropriate and
46:51
we need to be very careful which sites we're letting them look at,
46:54
But there are thousands of teenagers who are reading online manga.
47:00
A lot of it is self-published. A lot of it is professionally published.
47:03
And actually, for a lot of manga authors, publishing online is their route into
47:07
actually being published more traditionally.
47:09
So I think that's another area that they would definitely be interested in at the moment.
47:13
Sorry, Richard, I just want to mention that. No, you're fine.
47:16
I think it's a good point because some of the books that have been really popular
47:19
at a younger level have come from
47:22
Webtoons projects, which have then been converted into books later on.
47:26
So books like Hookie have been really popular.
47:29
But the point I was going to make is things like One Piece are bigger than ever.
47:34
They've got live action TV shows.
47:36
There's over a thousand episodes of the anime.
47:40
And books along those lines are very wise and cost-effective choices because
47:47
often people are trying to read that as it's a big cultural movement.
47:51
So that would certainly be one place I would be starting. I think the other one,
47:56
is that there is, as we've sort of said a few times now, there's so many different
47:59
ones that touch on different realities.
48:02
So Heartstopper has obviously been huge over the last few years and has been
48:07
on, you know, is now a very successful TV show.
48:11
And it's a great example because it's a book I never thought would really be for me.
48:15
I was like, I don't know if I want to read that. I'll read it because it's popular and I'll see.
48:19
And I was quickly drawn into the world. And, you know, I remember John lent
48:23
me the first one and said, you've got to read it. And I was like, wow, this is amazing.
48:26
But you can see why it's been so popular because it really does reflect a reality
48:31
for some that they maybe didn't feel they would see represented or they didn't
48:35
know that the literacy was out there that was what they were going through.
48:39
And I think there's a lot of books like that aimed at that kind of mid to late
48:44
teens dynamic, which can really hook into them and that sense of belonging and
48:49
make them realize there is something out there for them.
48:52
I was thinking i think sorry i
48:55
was just gonna say the final heart stopper book is actually being published in about
48:58
three months am i right richard being published over the season yeah so that's
49:03
that will be bringing that sort of series to a close i think but that that has
49:06
been hugely instrumental but there are also other series that have taken off
49:10
i mean if we're thinking specifically graphic novels there are ones horror series
49:13
like lock and key books like that which cover a lot of.
49:18
A lot of issues, a lot of themes, but they're also pitched for that age group.
49:23
I think they're probably the hardest age group to get back into the habit of reading.
49:28
I've got a 17-year-old who used to love reading up until the age of about 12.
49:32
She lost it for a couple of years. She is now starting to come back to books,
49:36
which I'm so relieved about.
49:38
But I think it's very much find anything that they will read.
49:42
I know that's not very helpful advice, but anything that they're going to be
49:47
interested in, it doesn't matter.
49:49
What matters is, is the reading habit, getting that ingrained again. Absolutely.
49:53
And once they've read, you know, a few graphic novels, it might be at that point,
49:56
if I start going back to reading other books or they might carry on reading
49:59
graphic novels, it doesn't matter.
50:02
It's hard to compete with the screens.
50:05
It is. We'll do that. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking that the K-pop,
50:11
you know, the Korean culture thing might be a way in as well.
50:15
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
50:17
I have to ask, and I'm going to drop this in, is there a meaningful way of using
50:24
graphic novels as a writing unit? Oh, wow.
50:30
100%. But it is tricky.
50:34
Number one is obviously they can be more expensive and the ideal way to teach
50:39
is often with a class set or to have readily available access.
50:45
But personally for me I've found over you
50:49
know almost the last 10 years now they can be an amazing way to inspire writing
50:54
and to capture excitement and engagement with writing for a you know variety
51:00
of different reasons depending what you're trying to achieve so it could be,
51:07
something like, we did diary entries once. Yeah.
51:11
And my class was struggling to, you know, struggling to fill in the bits you
51:16
can't see or you didn't know. So you're trying to come up with a quote.
51:20
And they're like, well, I don't know what that person would say.
51:22
So we did it again because they weren't very good what we did.
51:27
And I gave them a page from Spider-Man, which was obviously nothing to do with what we were learning.
51:33
But all of a sudden they could see everything they had to talk about on that page.
51:38
And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, okay. So the person given a quote
51:41
is going to talk about this, which I can see is in that panel.
51:45
And we could literally say, right, what is someone going to say who stood there?
51:48
What happened? they could see the events and all of a sudden the structure came
51:52
in they could fill in those little gaps and the clarity and the you know the
51:57
confidence in their work significantly increased,
52:01
and it was kind of one of the things that made me realize that images are often
52:05
used maybe as a starter or like a prompt but we can really base much more around
52:12
the image and make it a focal point or make it something where it's it's going
52:16
to do a lot of the delivery for us so.
52:19
Even things like descriptive writing or trying
52:23
to build characters instead of saying what does your character look like actually
52:26
let's get a page from a graphic novel how would we describe
52:29
this character first of all because we can you know you then have them you know
52:33
some children struggle to imagine particularly if they're not as well read where
52:37
do they draw that information from so if you're looking at a picture from a
52:43
page, say, of someone who's been in battle, you can imagine,
52:46
the size of their muscles or how to describe a sword that's covered in blood or something.
52:52
It's much easier to do that with a reference and spark that rather than them
52:58
just sitting there going, I don't know, maybe six foot tall,
53:00
I'll write that kind of thing.
53:04
And it goes further than that. They can be amazing for teaching the skills of writing speech.
53:11
But you say that.
53:13
That's the obvious one, isn't it? Using them for dialogue. And actually,
53:16
if we're thinking about key stage two writing and the TAFs, using dialogue to
53:21
advance the narrative is one of those expectations that they're supposed to hit.
53:25
And I think using graphic novels as a stimulus for that is really powerful.
53:30
Yeah, speech is kind of the obvious one, I think, isn't it?
53:33
But there's also writing from the perspective of a particular character.
53:37
And something else that we've done quite recently was using the technical language of graphic novels.
53:43
They love learning about the technical language, what a panel is,
53:46
what a frame is, what the bleed is of an image, and then actually writing their
53:49
own definitions of those as sort of a non-fiction, non-chronological piece of writing.
53:55
There's so many different writing opportunities there. I'm going to say,
53:59
just on the non-chronological side, they can be brilliant to bring into your
54:02
other topics to make them a bit more exciting or interesting.
54:05
So in my current school, when I was working in year six, we used to do,
54:10
every year we'd create like a retelling of the events of the Spanish Armada,
54:15
but for a graphic novel or like a comic page. Yeah.
54:18
Because the way we were teaching it was not, it wasn't interesting.
54:21
It wasn't effective. Children didn't really understand it. So we changed it
54:25
and made it about actually you're going to create an informational comic to show it.
54:30
And they had to think about what can I write? how do i get this
54:33
across in only eight panels i've
54:37
got to be careful with my language choices the images have got to show stuff
54:40
maybe i haven't got time to write about we did the
54:42
same in science so we were writing about um the
54:46
kind of the jobs of the different blood cells and what they did but rather than
54:49
just write out quite a dry red blood cells do this we made like a comic and
54:55
the blood cells have personalities and they were showing us you know so you
54:59
have the white blood cell is almost a bit like a police officer who's like,
55:04
no, we don't want you around here.
55:05
We're going to get rid of you to any infection or anything and stuff like that.
55:09
And it just helped make it.
55:11
Something they could experience a bit more actively and therefore it backed
55:16
up the learning. It didn't overshadow it, but it made it a bit more memorable.
55:20
And then also they're amazing to put up on display or get them sent home and
55:24
they're proud of what they've, you know, created.
55:26
We would always have it that every, in my classroom, every Spanish Armada comic
55:30
page would go on the wall on display.
55:33
And then when parents would come in, it would often be
55:35
the first thing they'd comment on not because it
55:38
was full of only the good children's artwork because you
55:41
could see all the care they'd put in the different styles you know
55:45
some children changing the panel structures sneak in
55:48
an extra one or something by splitting it and all
55:50
those little tricks and it really gave them a sense of
55:53
showing themselves on a page and also hitting their
55:57
work goal and their objective at the same time yeah they
56:01
are they're just they're a fantastic way of celebrating writing
56:04
across the school you know i'm after sats one of the things i'm
56:07
looking forward to is our we do this every year our year sixes go
56:09
down to year one and two ask them
56:12
what kind of graphic novels or comics they would like to read and then we spend
56:15
you know a few afternoons actually writing graphic novels for them because you
56:19
know they're writing then for a genuine audience that it's authentic you know
56:22
it's you know as well as reading for pleasure you know they're so essential
56:25
for building that writing for
56:27
pleasure culture as well and i think i think it's perhaps as time goes on,
56:32
I think we're going to find more and more creative ways to use them in the classroom.
56:35
I've learned loads from Richard over the last few years and I think we're always
56:39
trialing things and not everything I've done has worked.
56:41
I'm sure Richard would say the same, but actually I think we need to be brave
56:45
enough to take those risks and try something different in the classroom.
56:49
I'm still waiting for the day as well when a graphic novel appears in the year
56:53
six SAS paper as well because actually we will know then that they've actually
56:58
come into part of the mainstream, I think.
57:02
Well, we can keep our fingers crossed for that one. I mean, I have been taking
57:05
down notes as we were speaking about this because I know every time I've spoken
57:10
to John and I've had him on the radio show before,
57:13
I come away with so many excellent tips and strategies.
57:17
And today I've learned a lot from both of you. So thank you so much for being
57:23
here and sharing your knowledge and experience about graphic novels.
57:27
And I know both Toby and I will take it back to our classrooms, won't we, Toby?
57:32
Oh, definitely. K-pop for the win.
57:38
Right. I think we are going to be ending here. Thank you so much for being on
57:43
the show. Real pleasure to have you on.
57:46
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Have a good night.
57:50
Yes, and you. Take care now. Thank you. Bye-bye.