Latest / Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond / Friends and Swedish Pet Culture

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Friends and Swedish Pet Culture · Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond

• 0:00
  Hey Nat! Hiya! How are you? Look at this! I know, we're together! It's been a long time coming,
• 0:08
  it's so nice to see you. It has, it's really cool to record this podcast today actually being
• 0:14
  together as one. We managed to get it to work and we've got Katie with us as well, finally all the
• 0:19
  gang is back together. Yay, girly weekend for us, so perfect opportunity to record this podcast
• 0:26
  before we all get together and have some fun fun. Did you hear what you nearly said then,
• 0:31
  report instead of record? It's seeping into your psyche. What, the pause thing? Yeah,
• 0:38
  re-pause. Yeah, that could be a cool little expression for us, couldn't it?
• 0:44
  Do you think we're gonna like re-pause the podcast today? Don't know about that.
• 0:52
  It's lovely to see you though, I'm looking forward to a weekend of us just catching up
• 0:56
  and hanging out and just being fun friends. Yeah, me too, me too and we're chatting to our
• 1:02
  friend today, aren't we Katie? One of our very dear friends who we've known for a long time, who
• 1:08
  is going to be in the second half of this podcast because Katie doesn't have any pets and we're
• 1:14
  quite curious as to why because we could see her as a dog mum or a cat mum maybe. I know she has
• 1:22
  been a little bit afraid of pets in the past but just really curious to understand why she's not
• 1:30
  as keen on pets as we are because we obviously love our pets dearly and we know that Katie maybe
• 1:35
  doesn't feel the same way. So although I think she's got a lot of love to give, just really
• 1:41
  curious to explore a little bit more with her, a perspective of someone who doesn't have pets and
• 1:48
  why that is. She's a very caring person and she's around animals a lot and obviously she's
• 1:57
  never kind of shied away from Betty or anybody when she's been around me. I think the last time
• 2:03
  she popped up to mine was probably when we had Roscoe because she's been in Sweden for a long
• 2:07
  time so this is another interesting angle because of her Swedish life which I think she'll hopefully
• 2:12
  give us a little bit of insight into pet ownership over there as well.
• 2:16
  Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what pet ownership is like in, well it's in Stockholm
• 2:21
  isn't it, that she lives in Sweden. So yeah, the Swedish dog mum and dog dad, let's hear some more
• 2:28
  about that shortly. But yeah, how have you been? How are the pussycats?
• 2:33
  Yeah, not too bad. They're all right. We're getting along great. I talked before about
• 2:38
  their sort of pooey bum situation. That seems to have settled actually but I'm not totally happy.
• 2:45
  I'm going to try them on some new tinned food that's a bit more meat-based rather than being
• 2:50
  overly processed. They're currently on a food that the vets recommend. Lots of vets tend to
• 2:56
  recommend this brand in particular but we're going to try one that's a little bit more,
• 3:02
  I suppose, natural and so hopefully that'll give them maybe some a bit different nutrients to the
• 3:08
  processed stuff and see how we get on. I don't think we're going to go full in. I think we're
• 3:11
  going to take it slowly because our cats are quite sensitive so that's always a bit of an issue with
• 3:15
  us and they're fussy. But we've tried them on this before and they liked it so hopefully, and it's
• 3:19
  very similar to just giving them a bit of chicken or a bit of tuna so they should take to it.
• 3:24
  I'm just trying to get the flavourings right because if you turn the nose up all the time to
• 3:28
  different things it's really hard. But no, they're fine otherwise. We're going to go for vet checks
• 3:33
  next week because I was a bit worried about Murray's tooth because it's got a very big fang
• 3:38
  on one side and it's quite funny and it looks quite cool but I'm like, I don't know if it's
• 3:44
  bothering him. I can't tell because he's not displaying any sort of this grimace scale. I
• 3:51
  might have mentioned it before. He's not displaying anything on his face. His ears aren't back. He's
• 3:55
  not kind of holding his face funny and he's eating fine. He's eating his biscuits but it looks
• 4:00
  overly pronounced to this one fang. So I keep calling him one fang.
• 4:06
  Not Count Dracula then. Is it like that?
• 4:09
  Because you'd have to have two fangs to be Count Dracula.
• 4:11
  He has got two fangs but this one is very big.
• 4:13
  The fang is hanging out.
• 4:15
  Yeah, this one's hanging out a lot. So I'm just going to get him checked and then Weaver needs
• 4:19
  to get checked because she's going to be either getting a new prescription for her neurological
• 4:26
  pain and whether that's actually working or not. So that's a conversation I can bring back
• 4:29
  another time but we just need to get her checked over and see whether we're going to get new
• 4:33
  tablets or stop them. So we'll see.
• 4:35
  Yeah, but it's good just to have that peace of mind, isn't it? And something I don't know if
• 4:39
  I've asked you this before because you've been a veggie for a long time and you obviously kind
• 4:43
  of up in the meat intake with all the pussy cats and how you feel about that. Do you sort of
• 4:49
  distance yourself from the idea that you're feeding your cats all this meat and you yourself wouldn't
• 4:57
  touch it?
• 4:58
  Yeah.
• 4:58
  Good question. Sorry. Yeah. Do you know what? I've not thought about it enough or too much
• 5:02
  because it's a bit like fingers in the ears a little bit because I do need them to, I would
• 5:08
  prefer them to have real meat. But obviously, if my husband eats meat and if he has it, I want him
• 5:14
  to get the most organic, the most type of his chicken. It's got to be outdoor bred. If it's
• 5:19
  pigs, it's got to be outdoor bred. It's got to be RSPCA assured. It's got to have all these stamps
• 5:23
  and wellbeing elements to it and I don't do that with cat food. Although if it does say that on
• 5:30
  the tins, I'm a lot more drawn to it and will particularly pick one out that is that. I haven't
• 5:35
  looked into this brand that I'm currently considering for them that deeply. It is hard
• 5:40
  because making that choice on cat food for the cats, I don't think there's that much of a range
• 5:45
  and then you end up paying more and getting in a whole price problem. But there's no way I would
• 5:51
  have my cats be vegetarians. I don't think that's the right way to go. That's just my personal
• 5:57
  opinion. I know some people do take their animals down that kind of route, but I just don't think
• 6:02
  that's the right thing. But I want the meat that they're having to be ethical and the animals that
• 6:12
  are sacrificing their lives for my cats to have a decent life before that happens. But there is a
• 6:17
  bit of a kind of ignorance around that for me at the minute, which I need to probably work out.
• 6:23
  What about you? Because you're the same, I suppose, with Betty.
• 6:26
  Yeah. I mean, that's the thing because I eat less and less meat these days, but like you,
• 6:31
  I want Betty to have the right food and to have nutritious food, but also to be a bit more mindful
• 6:38
  of the meat that she is eating. At one point we were trying her on a raw food diet and it's from
• 6:46
  a small company who works with very small farms and there's a lot of ethical checks on their meat
• 6:53
  as well. Yeah, it's a difficult one, but I agree. I think we could be quite privileged
• 7:02
  in that position where we've got that choice potentially to pay more for that type of meat
• 7:07
  and maybe there's a bit of pressure on the pet industry to make sure that the animals that they
• 7:12
  get for meat produce, cat and dog food feed is also ethically sourced. I don't know what that
• 7:19
  looks like. That would be a good one to look into. Yeah, and also maybe we could interview someone
• 7:24
  in time to come who does feed their dog or cat. Well, probably more dogs actually, a veggie or
• 7:29
  vegan diet. I'm not sure it's possible to do that for a cat. No. But I think dogs, it's possible
• 7:37
  for dogs, but I'm not sure about cats. I don't know much about it. No, so let's park that topic
• 7:44
  then and think of that to talk about. But before we quickly move on, I know you did or you're doing
• 7:48
  a nutrition course, so it'd be good for you to share some of your insights at some point as well
• 7:53
  on what you're learning so we can bring that back at some stage. We will cover all of these topics
• 7:59
  over the coming months, years, who knows. Yeah, well, hopefully we'll still be around. Yeah,
• 8:05
  as long as we'll be at it. I mean, what I have learned in my nutrition course, because it does
• 8:10
  include dogs and cats, is that cats are what they call obligate carnivores, meaning that they do
• 8:16
  require nutrients found primarily in animal products. So a vegan diet is generally not
• 8:21
  suitable without careful supplementation. So that is something that we've learned,
• 8:27
  that dogs are a bit different. Okay, interesting. Well, that's good to know. Yeah, good to know.
• 8:33
  Okay. And yeah, you have had Betty, have you got an update on her because of the neuropathy
• 8:39
  neurological test that she had? Yes. So we had the appointment with the neurologist,
• 8:47
  which was good. That was this week. It's very thorough, actually. She was in with them for
• 8:52
  nearly two hours. So at one point I thought, are they actually doing the MRI now? And they haven't
• 8:57
  told me because that is one of the options. And I thought, what are they doing for two hours? So
• 9:02
  I took comfort in the fact that they were giving her a thorough assessment.
• 9:07
  But the long and short of it is, is that without doing an MRI, which would be able to diagnose,
• 9:14
  there's sort of three possible things, or maybe four actually, that could be causing her the
• 9:20
  problems. The first one is the one that we've talked about before in this podcast, which is
• 9:26
  the myelopathy. And yeah, just as a quick recap for anyone who hasn't listened to the other,
• 9:33
  the podcast that myelopathy in pugs basically causes hind limb weakness and it's characterized
• 9:41
  by a fluid filled pocket developing on the outside of the spinal cord, compressing the
• 9:46
  spinal cord and causing neurological signs. I mean, it's not fully understood to be fair,
• 9:52
  but I think, you know, there's a high risk that it could be that.
• 9:57
  The other thing that it could be, because like I say, she's been having problems with her back
• 10:02
  leg. She's very wobbly. She struggles to stand easily and she's not as mobile as she used to be.
• 10:08
  So the other potential reason for that is what they call arachnoid diverticulum AD in dogs.
• 10:17
  There's some quite long technical words here. I don't know if I'm quite pronouncing them right,
• 10:21
  but that's also characterized by fluid filled pouches, which also leads to spinal cord
• 10:26
  compression. And to be fair, the three things that he did describe, he said,
• 10:30
  it's very likely that she has spinal cord compression. We just don't know what's causing
• 10:36
  it without the MRI. And then the other thing is what they call IVDD, which is intervertebral disc
• 10:46
  disease. I did know, I have a friend who has a Frenchie who was struggling with that. And that's
• 10:53
  when the intervertebral discs, which usually act as cushions between the vertebra and a dog's spine,
• 11:00
  either bulge or rupture. And the thing is though, when I went to see the vet,
• 11:04
  he didn't think it was IVDD because Betty wasn't really showing signs of any discomfort.
• 11:10
  Whereas dogs with IVDD do sometimes have that discomfort, not always. Because the neurologist
• 11:17
  did assure me that Betty's not in any particular pain, which is good to know. The other thing that
• 11:23
  it could be, but it's a bit rarer, more unlikely is cancer. But we didn't spend too much time
• 11:31
  talking about that because he was focused more on the other three things. When you think about
• 11:36
  her age, that she's nearly 12, as a pug, she's put a little bit of weight on since last summer
• 11:45
  when we got her weight down when she was having her teeth removed because she needed to lose a
• 11:50
  bit of weight for surgery. And we did get it down, but the fact is she was a lot more mobile then. So
• 11:55
  she was exercising a lot more. So it's quite hard to actually get the weight down at the moment
• 12:01
  because she's not exercising. And so because of her age, because of her weight, and also the risk
• 12:07
  that if you do operate, it's quite an intricate operation, it's quite a delicate area of the spine,
• 12:14
  that it could make things worse. And so I'm a bit like, I'm not sure it's worth it. And
• 12:20
  the neurologist kind of said it's better to be more conservative. And the only kind of benefit
• 12:26
  of doing the MRI would be to diagnose for definite. And interestingly, he said she could
• 12:31
  have a combination of all three things. She could just have one, but it could be all three, which
• 12:35
  makes things more complicated. So for the moment, it's really hard because I want to do the right
• 12:43
  thing. I took her to see the neurologist, which I think was, you know, it was the right thing because
• 12:49
  you just, I couldn't think, I hate the idea of her suffering. So I wanted just to see what they
• 12:57
  had to say. And yeah.
• 12:59
  So are they now saying to you that Gabapentin, I think she was on, wasn't she? She's still on that
• 13:05
  and that's the kind of pain relief is enough for now?
• 13:08
  Well, they gave me the Gabapentin, but I haven't actually tried it because she was on a different
• 13:14
  pain relief called Rumicam. And he actually said, because what he thinks she has isn't painful,
• 13:20
  she doesn't need to be on it. But we didn't talk about the possible arthritis that she also may
• 13:26
  have because of her age. And I think the Rumicam does help with that. So I'm going to wait for his
• 13:30
  report to come through on email, where I can just digest everything and then probably go back to my
• 13:35
  vets and say, right, from a pain relief perspective, should she continue or should we take
• 13:40
  her off it? He did say that it's a good thing to be doing. So I'm going to continue with that for
• 13:47
  now. But yeah, my husband's been away recently, so he wasn't in the appointment with me. So I want
• 13:51
  to have a debrief with him and see what he thinks as well. And yeah, it's quite stressful, but yeah,
• 13:59
  it's hard.
• 13:59
  It's hard to know what to do because I'm the same with Weaver. If anyone heard, I don't know,
• 14:05
  they might not have heard the last few episodes, but she was having Gabapentin for
• 14:09
  a potential spondylosis, which was this bone spur that could be causing a nerve problem and giving
• 14:15
  her pain. And a bit lameness as well, because that did kind of cause the problems in her back legs.
• 14:24
  But we're on such a low dosage and we've had mixed opinions that some say it's like below
• 14:29
  the therapeutic benefits. So she's actually not, it's not making a difference the amount we're
• 14:32
  giving her because she's been on this low dose for so long and had no symptoms. I'm like, well,
• 14:36
  should we take her off then? But I'm also nervous because actually another vet was saying, yes,
• 14:40
  keep her on the low dose and that'll be fine. And I'm like, I don't really know what we're doing. I
• 14:44
  don't know what's working, what isn't working, what problems she's got, what we're actually
• 14:48
  treating her for. It's so complicated when there's things going on and you can't, I don't know,
• 14:54
  the conversations I'm having with vets are kind of like not consistent. So it's hard to know.
• 15:00
  You don't really kind of come to a sort of conclusion where you know for definite either
• 15:07
  way. So I think we've talked about this, haven't we? Yeah, the frustration of sort of a bit of
• 15:11
  trial and error. Yeah, I don't like that. But yeah, it's been, it's a pretty funny week anyway,
• 15:17
  because as you know, I am now a temporary foster mom to two lovely little chihuahuas who I have
• 15:27
  known for some time. They've been in my life for a while, but their mom passed away, a dear friend
• 15:34
  of mine, which I'm not going to talk about today. I think that we can leave that for another time.
• 15:39
  But yeah, they are now in my care and you, I know, have met them. They are the most gorgeous
• 15:48
  things. I cannot believe it. So I'm not, I'm not like a massive dog lover. I can be a little bit
• 15:53
  kind of like standoffish around dogs. But I immediately was drawn to these two. I never
• 15:59
  thought I'd like a chihuahua because they just feel so small to me. I like big dogs,
• 16:03
  but they were the sweetest little things. I've never wanted anything more. I just wanted to pick
• 16:09
  it up and cuddle it. So cute. I know, I know. Little Maggie and Minnie. Yeah, they loved,
• 16:15
  they loved cuddling up to you, didn't they? But yeah, I mean, they're, as you can see,
• 16:19
  they're snuggled in their basket right now. They love, they love sleeping. They just love
• 16:24
  chill time. I mean, I have felt a little bit guilty this week because I have been cuddling
• 16:29
  them a lot and just because they, they've lost their mom. So yeah, they're very cuddlesome.
• 16:37
  And I do feel a bit guilty that I've probably not been giving Betty as much attention. I was
• 16:41
  thinking this, is this what people feel like when they have their second child or they have more
• 16:47
  than one child, that the one child you've had has been used to getting all the attention and
• 16:52
  then another one comes along and it's like, hang on a minute, you're not giving me enough love.
• 16:57
  Yeah, so I'm trying to spread the love between all three, but there's only so much of me to
• 17:03
  go around. There is, there is. Now my husband is back from his holiday. I probably need to
• 17:07
  give him some love as well. I do need to give him some love as well. So it's not all about the dogs,
• 17:12
  but yeah, so I will tell you more about these lovely chihuahuas in the end of the episode.
• 17:19
  They're super sweet. They are the sweetest thing. They're like, for anyone who likes cats more,
• 17:23
  they totally reminded me of cats because you could just pick them up and cuddle them and they'd like
• 17:27
  stay on your lap and just stay there for ages. So gorgeous.
• 17:32
  They just don't purr, do they? But they are very much like cats or little kittens. They're very
• 17:36
  small and delicate. They're like little beauties. But anyway, we better not keep our friend Katie
• 17:42
  waiting any longer because we know she is itching to speak to us.
• 17:54
  So in today's episode, we've invited our dear friend Katie along to have a chat to us
• 17:59
  about pet ownership or more of lack of pet ownership because Katie, I don't think,
• 18:05
  has ever been a dog mom or a cat mom, I don't believe. And we want to persuade her otherwise
• 18:11
  and get her thinking about the brilliance that is pets and pet ownership. And yeah,
• 18:18
  to learn a little bit more about why Katie's never really had a pet. So Katie, we've known you for a
• 18:25
  long time, since we were at school together, but our listeners don't know you. So tell them a bit
• 18:30
  about you. Who is Katie? Yes, hello. I'm excited to be here, actually. I feel very privileged to be
• 18:37
  your second guest and to be here in the flesh. I believe that's a first. A bit about me. Well,
• 18:46
  it's not that exciting. Obviously, I went to school with you two. And I now, my job took me
• 18:52
  to Sweden. So I now live and work in Stockholm. I'm married to a Swede. I have a young family. I
• 18:57
  have two children on the age of 10, 8 and 4. Yeah, that's it pretty much. Nothing too exciting
• 19:06
  or revolutionary, I'm afraid. Yeah. No, but it's exciting to be living in Stockholm, don't you
• 19:10
  think? Yeah, it's a beautiful city. And on behalf of Stockholm Tourist Board, I can urge everybody
• 19:15
  to go and visit. It's really lovely. I've been to visit you once. I was really,
• 19:19
  really impressed with Stockholm. So yeah. And it's very pet friendly, I should say.
• 19:25
  Children friendly too, but very pet friendly. Yeah, that's what we like to hear.
• 19:30
  Is it quite progressive over there then, Kate, with dog and cat ownership?
• 19:34
  Yeah, I'd say Swedes are very pet friendly. I mean, all our neighbours have dogs, actually.
• 19:42
  Probably the same as in Britain, particularly since COVID, I think, when everyone was working
• 19:46
  from home more, I think pet ownership really took off. One of our neighbours is our immediate
• 19:54
  neighbour. She is a vet, actually, so she's always had pets. So yeah.
• 19:58
  So you aren't the only person on your street then that doesn't have a pet?
• 20:01
  Not on the streets, but our immediate neighbours, let's say there's three of them,
• 20:07
  where the four in a little cube, if you can imagine, they all have dogs. Yeah,
• 20:12
  we're surrounded by dogs. And my husband, the Swede, is a dog lover. He grew up with dogs,
• 20:18
  actually. So... There is someone in your family, yeah, that does love dogs.
• 20:25
  Yeah. And I'm always so disappointed when I come to visit you, Sasha, on my own without him,
• 20:31
  because he's such a dog lover. And when I come to someone's house who has dogs and I'm
• 20:36
  never around pets, I wasn't brought up with pets, like you said. So I don't really, it's not a
• 20:41
  natural instinct to me, whereas he is just a natural with animals in general, I'd say. Yeah,
• 20:47
  so I always think I'm really bad, but I'm not that natural with dogs or cats.
• 20:53
  So have you ever had any pets then growing up? Never?
• 20:57
  No. No. So my parents were teachers. Yeah, they were teachers before they retired. And
• 21:04
  I just remember, I don't think we were ever really pushed for pets, but I remember my dad saying
• 21:09
  they didn't think it would be fair on the animal because you can't really work from home as a
• 21:13
  teacher. So we were out all day, you know, so how can you kind of bring a pet into that environment?
• 21:20
  And we never really pushed. So I've never been around pets, ever.
• 21:24
  I just couldn't imagine that. It's crazy to me, someone who grew up surrounded by them,
• 21:29
  to have, well, to know someone who never did. But yeah, I mean, there's of course nothing wrong with
• 21:34
  that. But yeah, I'm some sort of anti-pet freak. Yeah, I know. I mean, there's judgment, obviously,
• 21:46
  about sometimes the stereotype of the crazy cat lady or the crazy dog lady, but I've never heard
• 21:54
  the crazy non-dog. But it is interesting because both me and my sister, I have an older sister,
• 22:01
  and obviously we're brought up the same way and we've never had a pet, but she
• 22:05
  has really grown into being an animal lover as she's got older and she has cats. And my auntie
• 22:12
  as well, my dad's sister, was a dog lover, huge dog lover. And she had dogs the whole time, I can
• 22:20
  remember growing up, and she had standard poodle. So if you say a poodle, people think of like a
• 22:26
  tiny little thing. No, she had the big poodles. But to me, they were always quite scary. They really
• 22:33
  jumped up. They weren't gentle. They were full of energy. Poodles, if you know anything about
• 22:38
  poodles, and I know very little, but they were full of energy. They're bouncy dog, really energetic.
• 22:44
  So I was always a little bit terrified. And I remember going to visit her, sitting in a chair,
• 22:49
  and she would give me an empty tin of quality streets, and she would have filled it with dried
• 22:55
  peas. This is true. And I would sit in the chair, and if a dog came near me, I would shake the tin
• 23:01
  and they'd go away again. She'd give it to me because she knew, I guess, that they were bouncy
• 23:07
  dog and that I wasn't used to being around pets. So yeah, and I was a little bit nervous and scared
• 23:15
  of them. So I feel like I've always, I've not had much pets exposure, put it that way. And then I
• 23:22
  guess when I did, it was really big bouncy dog, which to a younger child perhaps is a little bit
• 23:28
  scary. I don't know. Would you like more exposure now? Could we convince you to get a rescue dog
• 23:36
  or cat in Sweden? I'm not sure. I mean, like I said, I'm trying to think about any pet experiences
• 23:43
  I had growing up. And like my neighbour, she had a red setter. And again, Tessa, she was called.
• 23:48
  And I remember being terrified of Tessa. Again, she was quite an energetic dog. And I remember
• 23:54
  climbing the climbing frame in her back garden and not coming down because Tessa was there barking.
• 24:00
  And so for me, that was the kind of exposure. And our other neighbour had three Dobermans,
• 24:06
  which are really big dogs. And he had a sign on his gate saying beware. And again, you'd see him
• 24:15
  walking down the road with three big dogs and I would cross the streets. So that was my,
• 24:22
  that was the only kind of pet exposure I had until my sister had a cat. Yeah. So coming here and
• 24:29
  seeing you with your lovely, gentle dogs, it's not something I'm used to. And you saw my reaction
• 24:38
  when I came in and Betty came over and sort of woofed at me. I jumped out of my skin.
• 24:50
  I just, I think it's both. I think I have a little bit of fear because of lack of exposure
• 24:56
  and I'm just not used to it. Whereas as I said, my husband, he's so hands on and just immediately
• 25:00
  knows what to do and knows like to let a dog sniff you. And I don't know any of that. And
• 25:06
  I worry because I see it in my children. They're a bit scared of dogs. And we've even spoken,
• 25:12
  my husband's, his sisters both have dogs. And one of them in particular has an old
• 25:17
  brown Labrador. She's really gentle. She's quite old now. And his mum suggested, why don't you
• 25:23
  take the lab for a walk with the kids? Just be there whilst you're walking the dog because it
• 25:29
  will be really good for the kids. I don't want my kids to be scared of dogs. So that definitely
• 25:35
  comes from me. I think that fear because we're just not exposed. We're not around dogs at all.
• 25:41
  And do you think they've just picked up on your body language when you were around?
• 25:44
  Yeah, maybe.
• 25:45
  Yeah. How do you think they've learnt that behaviour, that feeling of fear?
• 25:51
  I don't. I mean, we're never really around dogs. And you feel bad because when you're in situations
• 25:58
  where people are there with their pet, if you go to someone's house and they know you're there
• 26:02
  with your children, they will go out of their way to kind of lock, not lock the animal away,
• 26:08
  but move them to a different room, maybe put a gate across. So the dog can't get to you and you
• 26:14
  feel really bad that they're having to kind of adapt their lifestyle or their environment to
• 26:20
  accommodate you. You do feel bad. Yeah. So I think we just don't have that exposure actually. So I
• 26:26
  think going for a walk with a nice gentle dog is a good start. And as I said, my sister,
• 26:32
  she's had cats the past few years, lovely gentle cats. Plus I am a bit allergic. I am a bit
• 26:39
  allergic. Yes, you are, aren't you? Have you taken antihistamine then while you're visiting
• 26:44
  me this weekend? No, dogs aren't as bad. Cats are really bad. And horses.
• 26:50
  So tell us about your sister's cat. So you're obviously an auntie to this lovely little cat.
• 26:58
  Tell us more about that. I am, yeah. Peggy, or Peggy. Peggy
• 27:01
  was a cat as my children call her. Yeah, she's a lovely gentle little thing. And because she
• 27:05
  lives in a different city, in a different country, I actually don't know her as well as I would like
• 27:10
  to. But she's a big part of my sister's life and she's a lovely gentle cat. And from what I
• 27:15
  understand that she's the most loving of all of the cats that my sister had. So my sister,
• 27:20
  her first cat was a rescue. And since then she's kind of made a point of making sure that she does
• 27:27
  the whole adopting shop thing. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, good principle to have there. And just,
• 27:37
  I always remember growing up that you had a bit of a phobia about fish. Tell us about that. Do
• 27:42
  you still feel the same way? I'm trying to remember what that was about. I do. I do. I
• 27:47
  feel like I'm listening, I'm hearing these questions and I sound like some sort of
• 27:52
  anti-pet freak. No, that's why we're talking to you because we're really intrigued. Gosh,
• 27:58
  I am seeing myself through someone else's eyes. I thought I was perfectly normal until five minutes
• 28:04
  ago. Yeah, I do have a phobia about fish, but not to go into the history of it, but it's more about
• 28:10
  the flapping. And I think the flapping thing is quite common. So it's fish out of water.
• 28:16
  Okay. The flapping around, it really is kind of, I don't like that at all, the gasping for breath
• 28:23
  thing. And also butterflies in a close proximity and also pigeons and birds. I went to Barcelona
• 28:33
  with my sister once, there were so many pigeons. She had to shelter me from them. What's wrong
• 28:38
  with me? Yeah, it's the flapping. And actually, once I went to having young children and my
• 28:43
  parents were visiting, we went to this lovely, what's the word for it? It's called the Butterfly
• 28:51
  House in English. And it's a lovely place where you can go and see exotic butterflies and also
• 28:58
  fish. So trying to be a good parent, I was like, let's do some fun activities that everyone,
• 29:04
  gentle activities. And we went to a place full of butterflies flying around and then loads and
• 29:09
  loads of fish. So I was so glad my dad was there because he is really good with animals too.
• 29:14
  Yeah. Gave me a lot of anxiety. That's something else I need to work on.
• 29:20
  It's a good job you don't have a husband who loves fishing.
• 29:24
  He does love fishing. He loves fishing. He absolutely loves it. Yeah. In the summer,
• 29:30
  when he was growing up, summers in Sweden on the West Coast, they would go out fishing. So he
• 29:36
  actually really loves fishing. And I've been out fishing with him in the summer before we had
• 29:41
  children. And the only reason he lured me out because it was such a lovely evening and you
• 29:45
  could see the fish jumping. And he told me that I might see a seal, which was the only reason he got
• 29:51
  me into the boat. So I sat at the front of the boat and he sat at the back with his parents and
• 29:55
  they were fishing and we did see a seal. But did you see any fish flapping?
• 30:00
  Yes, I did. And I think it was actually quite good for me to be there because I couldn't remove
• 30:05
  myself from the situation. I couldn't go anywhere. So I was forced to kind of confront my fear a
• 30:12
  little bit. Yeah. Well, well done. I actually think it was healthy. I think it was healthy,
• 30:17
  small progress. And my kids like going out fishing. So I haven't passed that weird phobia
• 30:22
  on to them. So that's something. That's good. Just the dog thing. Just the dog phobia.
• 30:27
  It's not a phobia of dogs. I think it's just a lack of exposure.
• 30:31
  Yeah. Fair enough. So if you were to welcome a lovely pet into your home now in Stockholm,
• 30:38
  what would it be and why? It would be something very lonely.
• 30:43
  And I thought about this. I mean, at the moment, having children under the age of 10, it's a lot.
• 30:50
  You know, you're juggling a lot. And we know families that have dogs and they have kids and
• 30:56
  dogs. And I'm in awe. I don't know how they can do that, actually. I don't know. Because to me,
• 31:02
  that's like a whole new level of organization or chaos. And so it would have to be something very
• 31:09
  low maintenance. I was very taken by the hamster lady. Laura, she was so good. I was even telling
• 31:18
  my husband all these hamster facts about hamsters shouldn't have a bent back. Who knew? And that
• 31:24
  they run loads in the wild. I found it very educational. It would be something very, very
• 31:29
  low maintenance. But I don't know, again, about going on holiday. Because I think if you have a
• 31:35
  pet, you have to be a responsible pet owner, don't you? Yeah, you do. It would be something very low
• 31:41
  maintenance. It wouldn't be a dog, not with all the toys on the floor and living in quite a small space.
• 31:48
  Do you feel like it would be a good thing for your kids to be exposed to pets?
• 31:52
  Yeah. So you'd want to do it a little bit for them at some point in their lives?
• 31:57
  I'm not getting a pet now. Come on.
• 32:01
  Not now. But I do think it's good for my kids to be more exposed to pets or animals than they
• 32:07
  are actually. I do. But my daughter loves horses, actually. She loves horses. She's
• 32:12
  quite cautious around them. But she goes horse riding. And again, it's my husband that takes
• 32:16
  the horse ride. Because I'm like, they don't need my... I don't know much about horses,
• 32:20
  but they don't need my nervous animal energy. So she loves horses. So yeah,
• 32:26
  the dog thing we need to work on. Yeah. Yeah. Because they do say animals pick
• 32:30
  up on that nervous energy, don't they? Yeah, absolutely. They're not stupid.
• 32:34
  Yeah. It's probably kind of a good thing in a way that you're not around them when your kids are,
• 32:39
  so that they don't pick up on that. But didn't you say in Sweden, a specific name or a special
• 32:46
  name for a dog? Is it dog mom and dog dad in Swedish?
• 32:49
  Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Yeah. I don't know what the English equivalent
• 32:53
  would be. I guess dog mom and dog dad, but they have a specific name. So husta and matta. So a
• 33:00
  husta is a dog dad and a matta is a dog mom. And it's like, it's not nicknames. As far as I know,
• 33:07
  they're not nicknames. They're actual names. You're the husta or you're the matta. So Sasha,
• 33:13
  you're the matta to Betty, for example. There's not one for cats, Natalie, I'm sorry.
• 33:18
  But you'd find it in the Swedish dictionary then, would you?
• 33:21
  I don't know. I haven't ever opened the Swedish dictionary, but you could Google it and it's
• 33:27
  very... Yeah. I'd have to double check with the expert, my husband, but yeah, it's a thing.
• 33:33
  Recognized names, husta and matta. Yeah. Dog mom, dog dad.
• 33:37
  Got a ring to it, hasn't it? I hope I haven't got them mixed up.
• 33:41
  Husta is the man and matta is the woman, I think. But I will say this because my husband loves
• 33:49
  dogs. And we do joke that if I go, if I leave this earth before him, he can get a load of dogs.
• 33:56
  Obviously, the Swedish winters are quite cold and snowy. So we joke that he'll have a whole
• 34:01
  sled pulled by golden retrievers because they're his favorite dog. He grew up with
• 34:07
  Labradors and golden, but golden retrievers, his absolute dream animal.
• 34:11
  And don't you have wolves as well? Haven't you seen some paw prints from a wolf in your garden?
• 34:17
  Well, I thought it was a wolf, but it was just a dog. But there was a wolf down the road. So
• 34:23
  this is true where my husband's family live very close by, which is really nice,
• 34:29
  about a 15-minute drive away. And their neighbor was walking their dogs early one morning. And
• 34:33
  we live in the suburbs of Stockholm. This is an inner city. But still, there's houses and there's
• 34:39
  green spaces. He owns, I think there are two, maybe Cavalier Spaniels. And he went walking
• 34:45
  with them early one morning at maybe five, six o'clock in the morning. And on the other side
• 34:52
  was a wolf just standing there looking at the dogs. And the dogs were off the lead. And he went
• 34:57
  crazy, like calling the dogs back to him. You can imagine. So yeah, wolves, they've been
• 35:03
  reintroduced, I think, to Sweden. And they track them. They can track the wolves. So they know
• 35:08
  exactly where they are, et cetera. They keep close tabs on them. So yeah, they're getting great.
• 35:14
  It's amazing. I don't know. Again, you'd have to speak to a Swedish person who's more tuned in to
• 35:20
  it, I think, both sides of the argument. It is amazing. But it's also a little bit scary that
• 35:25
  they're coming quite close to us humans, actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's like foxes in cities,
• 35:32
  isn't it? They're just not afraid anymore because they used to be around humans.
• 35:36
  Kate, what do you think of animals? How do you perceive them? Do you
• 35:43
  kind of understand that they have little personalities? And do you warm to them?
• 35:50
  Or is it quite a very distant relationship? No. I mean, I don't have any personal relationship
• 35:56
  to an animal, but I see how important they are in my friends' and family's lives. So of course,
• 36:02
  I understand that animals have personalities and are so important. I do see that. I just don't
• 36:09
  have that. I've never had that personal connection. But I don't have a heart made of
• 36:14
  stone. I mean, I'd like to think I'm a caring mother. I certainly am sure if I had any sort of
• 36:22
  pet or animal in my life, I'm sure I would care for it and love it.
• 36:27
  I think you would. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree.
• 36:30
  With small children, I couldn't cope at the moment. But as I said before, I do not know how
• 36:36
  families with dogs cope. And what do they do during holidays? I have so many questions.
• 36:44
  That is an interesting topic. And maybe again, one we can explore with somebody who's got a
• 36:47
  family as well as animals that they need to take care of. Because how do people juggle?
• 36:52
  Because I would struggle. I mean, kids need your entire attention. And then animals demand a lot
• 36:58
  of you. So how you do both of those together, you'd be just running off your feet.
• 37:03
  Yeah. And the traveling, because you can't just be home all the time. People are allowed to go
• 37:08
  on holiday. So what do you do with the animal? I know dogs, perhaps you can travel with them.
• 37:15
  Is that the easiest? One, I don't know. We know people who have, they're from Sweden,
• 37:20
  but they live in America now. And they came to Sweden for the summer. And their dog traveled
• 37:25
  with them because they were going to be here for a while. And their dog got stuck at quarantine
• 37:30
  at Stockholm airport purely because there wasn't the right paper signed or something. It was a
• 37:37
  really tiny clerical error, but they were so strict. And this poor dog got stuck at the
• 37:43
  airport for weeks. So I don't know how you easily travel with pets. And I think as a family or as
• 37:50
  anybody trying to live their life, you're allowed to take a break and go on holiday. So unless you
• 37:55
  take a staycation, I think that's very difficult to juggle actually.
• 38:00
  Yeah, I think that's fair enough. I think that's one of the reasons that we hear quite frequently
• 38:05
  is about, you know, if you have a pet, people don't feel that they have the same freedoms as
• 38:10
  if they didn't. So, you know, they can go off traveling easily, but there are kennels and
• 38:15
  there are pet hotels and there's always family and friends. So you know that if you ever needed
• 38:21
  anyone to look after your dog or cat in the future, if you do become a dog mom or a cat mom,
• 38:27
  you know that Natalie and I would be here for you and we would help you take care of it. So
• 38:32
  yeah, really want to thank you for being so open with us, Katie. It's really interesting to hear
• 38:38
  from someone who doesn't have pets, just kind of, yeah, how they feel about it. And, you know,
• 38:44
  we really appreciate you listening to all our podcasts so far. And maybe one day one of our
• 38:49
  podcasts will convince you just to get a pet. Yeah, I think for me, it really made me think
• 38:57
  about exposing my children more to dogs or cats because I don't want them to be really cold to
• 39:06
  animals. I'm not sure that I am cold to animals, but yeah, I think hopefully, I think it's important
• 39:13
  for them to be more exposed to dogs and more loving perhaps to pets than they are because
• 39:18
  they're never exposed to them. Yeah. Oh, well, I'm glad we've helped you think about that. And
• 39:22
  yeah, thanks for coming on this episode. It's been lovely to talk to you and obviously lovely to hang
• 39:28
  out with you this weekend. You know, Betty is always up for a cuddle. So yeah. So thank you,
• 39:34
  Katie. Thank you, Kate. Thank you. All right. Maybe you'll have me back in a couple of years
• 39:40
  and I'll be surrounded by dogs. Yeah. You never know. We can only hope. But yeah, thank you.
• 39:48
  Let's chat in a few years' time and see where you're at. Bye bye. Bye Katie. Thanks so much
• 39:58
  for coming. It's been great to kind of hear your side of the story and understand your point of
• 40:02
  view. Interesting one about balancing pets with family. So maybe we can get somebody in on that
• 40:08
  at some point. Be good. Thanks everybody for listening. That's the end of the Pause Between
• 40:14
  Us episode today. And look out for next week when we'll be talking to Nose to Trail,
• 40:20
  a award winning pet behaviour service in Cheshire and Shropshire area run by Rachel Rodgers,
• 40:27
  a clinical animal behaviourist. So she's going to talk to us a little bit about some of the
• 40:32
  tips and techniques to looking after dogs and overcoming some behavioural problems. So that'll
• 40:37
  be brilliant. So tune in next week. Like, subscribe, follow, messages on TikTok or on
• 40:42
  Insta or you can email us at pausebetweenus at gmail.com. If you have any comments or thoughts
• 40:47
  on the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Bye for now. See you next week.