Latest / Technically Sound Strategy / Episode 36 - Law Firm Exit Strategies and Valuation

Transcript

Episode 36 - Law Firm Exit Strategies and Valuation · Technically Sound Strategy

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Welcome to Legal Marketing Radio, a production of LaFleur Marketing.
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This week, I chat with Jeremy Pook, Principal at Senior Attorney Match.
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We spent some time talking about exit strategies and impacting
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the valuation of a lawyer's most valuable asset, their own law firm.
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Jeremy has worked on countless law firm transactions, helping lawyers navigate
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the complexities related to managing a firm's various assets and applying a
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value to something that historically has been shut down when an attorney retires.
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Enjoy the episode.
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It's great to have you on Jeremy.
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You and I have spoken a number of times before and appreciated the work that
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you do, working with attorneys who are looking to kind of transition their firm.
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I guess, could let's start out.
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Could you just give a little bit introduction into.
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Yourself.
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How did you start down this path?
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And what are you seeing in the market?
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Thanks so much.
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Really great to talk to you again, chip.
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So Jeremy PI lead, senior Attorney match.
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Senior attorney match.
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We broker the sales of law firms.
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We really do two things.
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We work with attorneys, senior attorneys, that is attorneys that
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are practiced more than 30 years.
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We help them to design succession plans, so prepare for selling
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their law practices, design it, what are their options?
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What are their practices worth?
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What could they do, X number of months or years before they go to market?
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And then after designing the succession plans.
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Then we put on, I'll say it's metaphorically put
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on the implementation hat.
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We act as a broker slash recruiter to be assisting our clients
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primarily to sell their law firms by joining growing law firms.
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Just a little bit of background about myself.
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I am a lawyer.
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I'm based in Massachusetts.
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I've been practicing since the year 2000 several years.
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law, my entrepre of spirit, it j to the top.
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Maybe it was leases to review and cont that's really where I gravitated to
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as a business law attorney and helping them to paper their deals and saw
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in the early two thousands that they were already focusing at that point.
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That's 20 plus years ago.
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So it's ages me, but in any event that they were already focusing on boomers
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and that really made me think that, all right, if the, if business brokers are
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focusing on boomers selling their non law practices there have to be, and there are.
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thousands, tens of thousands of baby boomer age lawyers thinking
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what are their law practices worth and who could purchase them.
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And that was really the start to senior attorney match, which we launched in 2013.
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I think that's I think that's super interesting in my own experience, I
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started this company about 10 years ago.
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But I've been working with attorneys now for over 15 years on the marketing side.
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And, starting this business, we recently, a year and a half ago, we acquired another
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business that was on the market that had some investment funds behind it.
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And I started to go down that road of, what is the process of valuing a business?
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How do you transact it?
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And then just the last couple of days, we actually sold that business.
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So so we took it over, we got some things cleaned up got the team
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spun up and running, and then we pursued additional investment.
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And then work through a couple different models evaluation.
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And then, of course, the hardest thing is, people will only pay what it's worth.
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How do you determine what something's worthwhile?
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What will people pay for it?
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And it's not like going to the store and you just say, hey,
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here's the value of this thing.
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And can you speak to the metrics that you use to find that valuation
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and then how we can, how the people who have that ownership, how
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they work a path towards exiting?
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Yeah, sure.
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So we differentiate between what we call law firm sales 1.
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0.
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and law firm sales 2.
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0.
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So since starting senior attorney match in 2013, every one of our deals
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have been under law firm sales 1.
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0 and explain that in just a moment and then also give some foreshadow
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to where the sales of legal practices going in terms of law firm sales 2.
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0.
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So law firms they or professional services businesses.
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Okay.
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And by and large, Most attorneys are hiring lawyers based upon
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the reputation of a given lawyer at a law firm as compared to the
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reputation of the law firm itself.
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And because the value of a law firm is so much wrapped up, typically, And
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the goodwill of one or more attorneys.
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How many law firms do we each know?
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And anyone who's listening to this podcast now know by the surnames, right?
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That is the last names of the partners of the firm as compared to a trade name
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for a law firm, like we see trade names and so many other types of businesses,
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but as a professional services company, law firms have just developed over
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literally decades, centuries, even.
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By who are the partners at the firm?
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So how does that then relate to trying to sell a law practice whose value is so
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much tied up to one or more attorneys, the rainmaker attorneys at those firms.
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So without further ado, and law firm sales 1.
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0, the valuation is based upon an earn out price.
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That is, we are actually not coming up with a valuation because a buyer.
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And a bank for that matter.
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Cause we really don't have banks providing funding in our deals yet.
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And law firm sales 1.
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0 a buyer will say, we just don't know.
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If those annual revenues will continue without the seller, the primary
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rainmaker of the firm continuing with the firm, but law firm sales, absolutely.
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They have been shipped.
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So the way we structure the deals is that the most valuable assets of
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the firm where the real value lies.
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Is that proverbial an actual book of business?
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Every deal that we do has two exhibits.
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Exhibit A has other exhibits too.
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But exhibit A is the client list.
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Exhibit B are the referral sources.
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And that is the responsibility of the selling attorney, that's what we call
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the senior attorney, to transfer the trust of those clients and referral
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sources to the purchasing firm.
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And the fun part about this is the digital aspect of it.
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Okay.
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Nobody would have ever wanted COVID to happen, right?
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If anybody could go back in time and prevent COVID from
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happening, we all would have.
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What did COVID do to our society outside of the virus itself, right?
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That COVID period were to pivot, it pivoted our society and the
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legal industry as well, digitally.
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And the reason why I bring that up in the context of Law Firm Sales 1.
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0 is that trust transfer, which pre COVID, pre 2020, so much had to happen in person.
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The selling attorney would have to go into the conference room and meet with clients
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and the new attorneys and say, you're in good hands with the new attorneys.
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All of that can now happen on Zoom.
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And teams and other for and also even digitally in a in the form of e
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newsletters and LinkedIn contacts, right?
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Where lawyer is saying digitally to his client base that, that
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typically lawyers would only be sending out a once a year holiday
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card to touch their clients, right?
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Now that can happen digitally by connecting, on LinkedIn,
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Facebook groups, e newsletters.
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Social media, via x and whatnot.
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And clients can then learn that their lawyer has joined a firm, retain that
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firm, and then the lawyer is getting paid a percentage of the revenues.
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Come from that book of business, and that's really how the
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valuation comes out, chip.
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That is that the valuation is played out over what we call an earnout period,
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typically somewhere between three to five years, sometimes even longer.
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And then the selling lawyer gets a percentage.
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Of those revenues paid out over time.
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And I mentioned a bank because banks will typically not lend on these deals because
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a bank is asking where's the security?
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I like what are they?
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What are the assets that we could actually put a lien on?
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And what do we have a 10 year computer?
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We've got a bunch of files.
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It's that, it's in it, and if t if it can transition over are happy to share
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in a p I just want to get in tha 2.
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0.
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Isn't this really ex Okay.
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In terms of building up the digital value for law firms, because now that
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we are post 2020, we're doing this podcast in the mid 2020s, you and I are
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both seeing that the smarter, younger growing firms today are recognizing that
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they can actually build brand value.
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And you can track it with the data analytics.
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And if law firms can actually show that clients are coming to our firm,
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not because of rainmaker attorney Smith or rainmaker attorney Jones,
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but they're coming to our firm because we have this reputation.
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We have 800, 2000, 5, 000 five star Google reviews.
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Behind us, people come to us 'cause we are the best personal injury law firm in this
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part of Michigan or that part of Texas, or the best estate planning firm for this
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type of clientele in New York or Florida.
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And you can show a bank those data analytics.
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Then we've got real brand value.
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Then we're going to get a real, then we are going to get real
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multiples at law firm closings.
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It's still at least through our eyes and what we're seeing.
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Heck if John Morgan called me chip.
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Okay.
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And said, Jeremy, am I law firm sales 1.
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0 or law firms 2.
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0?
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I'd say, Mr.
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Morgan, please.
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Take a seat.
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You are law firm sales 2.
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0.
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Okay.
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And there are 2.
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0 firms out there, but by and large, so far, we're working mostly at 1.
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0.
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Yeah.
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Now that makes a lot of sense to me.
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And again, just having gone through this process, working with the
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bank getting evaluation the bank looks, looked pretty closely as
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we were working through this deal.
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We worked with the venture capitalist group and some bankers in the
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process and One of the areas that they spend a lot of attention time
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and attention to was our pipeline.
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Right?
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And for the business that we just, raise money for, and sold
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is not technically the right word.
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We we still have an interest in that entity, but as we navigated that,
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looking at that pipeline, which.
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Consisted of the relationships that we had started and initiated, right?
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So people had shown interest.
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We had identify them.
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We put a dollar value on the deal.
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We could do that because of the predictable nature of spending
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in the market research space, which is the company that.
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That we just created a separate entity for in the personal injury space,
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you don't have that predictability because, you have single events, right?
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Single event someone's in a car wreck and they get injured.
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That may be a once in a lifetime thing.
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It doesn't come from building a relationship with that person in
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the more traditional business to business type relationship, or even a
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business to consumer, where you have a certain volume of, or a certain
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lifetime value, per client basis.
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And so what you're saying, tracking and building up that digital footprint starts
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to really shape that pipeline, right?
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So business pipeline for a law firm, you can impact that.
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And that's what a lot of what we do.
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We try to give them greater visibility.
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We try to make sure that they have traffic to their website.
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But speak to how you're looking at finding evaluation there.
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I'm familiar with.
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Even multipliers for evaluation things like that.
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So tell me how that informs firm 2.
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0 sales.
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Yeah, sure.
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And I'll tell you only because we are just, we just haven't done them yet.
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Okay.
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So I apologize to the listeners that I don't have a very good
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answer for it yet because because all of our deals have been 1.
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0 to date.
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Will it be a multiple of something like net profits, EBITDA, those types of
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typical, multiples, the approach to, to, to creating and relying upon the multiple.
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Yes.
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But again, only because so many of the firms or these, what, I don't want to, I
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don't want to degrade the law listeners that are listening, but by and large,
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so many law firms are mom and pop.
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They're what we call small business law firms.
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So when you're getting to the much larger firms, they can
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bring in that predictability.
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At this point, I just, I don't know what the approach is going to be.
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All I can say is that they will at least have a seat at
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the table, to use your word.
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So now we have predictable revenue coming in.
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And what we foresee in Law Firm Sales 2.
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0 is developing a way to be able to get that fixed price at the closing.
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But I think also chip, there's going to be a hedge at least what we see 2.
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0.
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And I never really thought of 3.
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0 until this conversation, by the way, because I think, because what we see is 2.
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0 is fixed price plus the earn up.
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Yeah.
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Cause the only, we're only going to be able to get a fixed price on so much.
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Of the practice, and there's still going to be an earn out.
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I think there's still going to be concerned about whether and how
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new clients are going to come in 3.
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0.
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Then I think we're at the, then we're going to be at the point where
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we don't need to earn out anymore.
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Yeah, please go ahead.
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No, that makes a lot of sense.
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If.
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I feel like we could workshop that a little bit.
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Because, again, if we look at pipeline, pipeline is just what
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is the volume of incoming new work coming into the door, right?
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And if we can show, if we can show good data that supports, hey, this is
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how much new work we get I think it is a pretty major shift in the thought
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process of someone who's, someone whose name is on the plank, right?
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Someone whose name is on the door.
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Yeah.
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But that's a more common thought process outside of the legal industry.
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When you own and run a business, I think succession planning and thinking through,
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how do this is usually our primary asset.
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What do we do with that asset?
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If we can think through a way to create a provable intake process or approval
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intake volume, then that provable intake volume becomes the thing of
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value, as much as anything else.
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And to your earlier point, building out the data and building out the analytics
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that sit on top of that to be able to show, we can tell you that new cases
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come in through the door through these five different areas, the further away
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they are from the individual lawyer's last name, the more valuable they are,
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the closer they are to it the less valuable they are for a new owner.
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And so those tools that exist that you talked about, those really
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live on more towards the other end.
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And I think also the smarter firms and smarter.
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Not that they're not that in prior year, law firms weren't smart, because
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they didn't have the tools The types of digital marketing tools like you
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were stuck with the yellow pages, you're stuck with tv and radio.
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We've got multi channel mediums today.
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Okay, to be getting messages out.
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So getting out by the smarter firms is introducing trade names, right?
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If you can introduce a trade name.
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which is now permissible as I understand in every state in the United States.
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You have to check your given States version of rule seven of
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the professional rules of conduct.
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My understanding is that every single state now allows trade names.
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And it just surprises me that not on that that we're not seeing as
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many new trade names, but we're absolutely starting to see it.
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And whenever I see it, I think it's brilliant because then you are moving away
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from, the founder, the face, what happens when that founder face is no longer
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there in terms of value of the practice.
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It makes, yeah, that makes sense to me.
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So if you put yourself in a position and with your experience, you're uniquely
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qualified to answer this question.
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If you put yourself in a position of a lawyer who started his own practice as a
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principal, and he's looking at a 5 year, 10 year exit, what are the things that
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you start doing now to try to maximize the valuation As you get closer to that exit.
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Yeah, great question.
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Thanks so much.
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Just as a reminder, okay, the most valuable asset of a law firm is
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the book of business, the client list, and the referral sources.
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Post 2020, developing clients has become more challenging for
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yesteryear's rainmaker attorneys.
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If you're a rainmaker attorney, okay, then a big question to those
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attorneys listening to this podcast is when was the last time that you
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reordered a box of 500 business cards?
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Because the Rainmaker attorneys excelled in word of mouth, right?
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They'd have business cards in their wallets, in their pockets,
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in their suit pockets, right?
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On their, in your office, when you walk into the office, okay?
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Because that's the epitome of word of mouth.
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And I bring that up, Chip, in terms of your question.
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Is that if you're a Rainmaker attorney listening to this and thinking about five
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years out, Let's also think about, is your pipeline, to go back to that word, is
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your pipeline of adding new clients, is it keeping pace as much as it did pre 2020?
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We're finding it's not right.
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Okay.
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For a lot of the Rainmaker attorneys, so within that five year period, you've got a
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real significant question to ask yourself.
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On the one hand.
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Do you want to and are you prepared to retain companies like yours?
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Okay, to supplement rainmaking activities with digital marketing because the
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younger growing firms are beating you to the clients because if a client can't
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find you, they're not going to hire you.
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If you're not going to hire you, you're going to have less revenues in the short
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term and your book of business is not going to be as thick and as filled with
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pages of clients as it was pre 2020.
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So one big question, preparing five years out, am I prepared to adopt?
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And implement on multi channel digital marketing, and it's not going to be
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your niece or your granddaughter.
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That's going to get you there.
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It's going to be a real company like yours.
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Okay.
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That you have to pay real money to with a real strategy to develop the clients.
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The other pathway, which we recommend a lot to attorneys thinking 5 years out
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is now the time to sell your practice.
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You'll continue practicing, but join a growing offer that is already
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committed to digital marketing.
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Okay.
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We have a client, he was brokered, through another, through a friendly
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competitor of mine who joined another practice, but I just thought it was
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fascinating, personal injury law attorney in the Northeast, joined another firm,
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had a client list in the thousands, joined a firm, he was a solo, joined a
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firm of about 20 lawyers, who was the first person at that growing firm that
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he joined that he was introduced to?
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The marketing person because the marketing person said to him, look, you
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have an underperforming client list.
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We want you contacting your clients, getting five star Google reviews
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from them because they love you.
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You've gotten great results from them for decades.
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We want you to contact them and have them get five star
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Google reviews onto our page.
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We want to start marketing to these people that love you because they're
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going to refer business to us and you're going to benefit as a result.
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So as you're thinking five years out, On the one hand, continue to build the value.
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Okay, cool, but you've got to be committed to doing digital marketing
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because otherwise, yesteryear's word of mouth era, it's still here a little bit.
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But again, when was the last time you ordered 500 new business cards?
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On the other hand, joining a growing law firm where you can continue
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practicing and get paid out over years during that earn out period that we
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talked about earlier, we're absolutely recommending that attorneys consider
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that as an alternative as well.
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That's really.
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Oh, sorry.
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Keep going.
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Sorry.
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Please.
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Oh, you just introduced something that actually is seemed like a little
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bit of a light bulb moment to me.
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You know when I think of when I think of the firms that would be More likely
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to reach out to you It's somebody who's probably slowing down in their practice
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but I think that you're raising the point that the time to do it is when
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Yeah, you want to sell your assets when they're at their highest valuation, right?
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so if you have a car and you drive it off the lot then it drops in
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value and then years later, yeah, maybe you can sell it, but you
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might just sell it for scrap, right?
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You buy a house, the market goes up, the valuation increases,
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the market sets, things change.
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So you want to sell any asset that you have.
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So if you remove the, if you remove that emotional attachment
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because the firm has your name on it or something like that, which.
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From my perspective, I would never, and I made the same
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mistake for my own company, right?
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I named it the floor.
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But, if I looked at starting now, we would use a trade name.
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And I think that any law firm that still has a runway ahead of them
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should consider making the change.
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Incorporate as a trade name.
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But, Either way, you want to sell your asset at its highest valuation, and if
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you can do that without having a huge impact in your future earnings, which I
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mean, if you're running an established firm, like when it has visibility and when
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it's still getting the traction, that is the time to start looking at meeting up.
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And that's a different, that's a shift in mindset.
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Again, as I've thought about, I've known you for years.
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So as I've thought about what you do and how you do it, I've always thought,
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okay, when the lawyer's starting to slow down, But if they're starting to
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slow down and the valuation is going to be significantly negatively impacted.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So we're working on a deal right now where the senior attorney
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is in his late sixties, right?
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He's still, he's got a lot of juice.
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Okay.
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A lot.
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Because lawyers like intellectually, right?
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Like they love to continue to practice.
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So he probably wants to continue to practice for Three to five.
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Three to five years.
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And he's got a great, he's got a great growing PI practice.
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He also has another growing area of the practice.
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And he's got business that he can't, that he can't handle it all.
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So his question was, all right, am I gonna hire another associate?
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Oh, I gonna join a growing.
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And so we're going down the pathway of him joining another firm and very
22:37
similar to that other PI attorney who I referenced, the growing firm,
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what's the major thing they want to get their hands on the client list.
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They want to market to all of those clients and my client
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will financially benefit.
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And you brought up something really interesting because
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we find this all the time.
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Chip, you brought up about The losing control.
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We find that Absolutely.
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Okay.
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It's their baby.
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You've grown this business for so many years and the concern,
23:03
it's really fascinating.
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It took us a while to figure this out.
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It was in front of us, some reflection and we figured out.
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What's the major concern that senior attorneys, as you're saying, let's say
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they're still, let's say in the prime of their careers, have three to five
23:15
years at least of still practicing.
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What's the major concern that they're gonna have a boss?
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show
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up, they're gonna jo all of a sudden it's like all over again.
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They're a told they've got to put u billable hours or be here And we
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always tell those you never have a boss bec in with that book of busi
23:38
You're walking in with all of those clients, our clients, when they join
23:42
growing law firms, they don't have to be managing the office anymore.
23:45
They don't have to deal with the copy machine to deal with, hiring
23:48
another paralegal, or the office fight that's going on between the office
23:53
manager and like your, your five year associate, you have to deal with that
23:56
anymore, and they don't have a boss.
24:00
That's awesome.
24:01
Yeah, we're here with Jeremy Pook with senior attorney match.
24:03
The website's the senior attorney match dot com.
24:06
I always love getting your perspective and hearing kind of some of the stories
24:10
of the firms that you work with some of the deals that you put together.
24:13
I think it's.
24:14
It's so important.
24:15
It's so important for lawyers to wrap their heads around this
24:19
earlier in their careers, right?
24:21
So they can plot the path forward and figure out where they're going to go.
24:24
Because, otherwise they're pouring their resources, they're pouring their
24:27
time and their energy into an asset.
24:30
You know that they're going to want to do something with, and for so many lawyers,
24:35
it's not the fees that you generate.
24:37
It's not the profit that you generate out of your own firm that
24:40
generate the thing of most value.
24:42
It's the practice itself, and so coming up with and thinking strategically
24:46
about how you're going to navigate.
24:47
That makes a ton of sense to me.
24:51
Great.
24:52
I really appreciate.
24:52
I really appreciate the conversation and I'll just share also chip because I've
24:56
also, gotten to, you read your book when you published it, several years ago about,
25:00
digital marketing for law firms and for those growing firms and it's, it's really
25:05
interesting because you wouldn't, you would have asked a lawyer 10 years ago
25:07
what, what do you think about marketing and what do you need to do for marketing?
25:11
And I think today a significant answer for that is, is that geez, I need content.
25:16
I know I've got to publish stuff because I got to get the attention
25:20
of people and I need fresh, new authentic, relevant content, right?
25:26
And for those growing law firms, senior attorneys who have so much
25:31
subject matter knowledge, they are sitting on treasure chests.
25:36
Of content.
25:37
They'll never publish their own that never some do.
25:41
Okay, but by and large, the expectation of your typical 60
25:45
something attorney who's got those decades of subject matter knowledge.
25:49
Are they really going to do a podcast?
25:51
Are they really going to start doing videos on YouTube?
25:55
Are they really going to, do blogs?
25:58
Probably not.
25:59
But if they join a law firm that works with a digital marketing company like
26:03
yours, Just does something like we're talking here, just a conversation.
26:06
Just be like, Hey, Mr.
26:07
Or Ms.
26:08
Senior attorney, what are the 10 things that somebody, that just, let's not go
26:13
with the car crash, because there's so many, that's just out there so often.
26:16
But let's say, what are the, what are the 10 things that in,
26:19
that insurance companies Okay.
26:22
Are afraid of.
26:24
Okay.
26:25
When when they are dealing with a, a motor vehicle accident that involves
26:30
this type of injury and like an attorney that's done that hundreds of times
26:36
in his or her career can say that so authoritatively, I think that's a
26:41
word, and that, that fits the need.
26:45
Of the growing firm that needs that digital content.
26:48
Yeah, and that's a lot harder to replicate using tools like AI and
26:51
things like that, that can regurgitate content, but it can't share a lived
26:56
experience, like a, like an attorney who's been practicing for a long time.
26:59
Does that make sense?
27:00
I appreciate you taking the time, Jeremy.
27:02
I think I found this very informative.
27:04
As always, it's always great to see you and appreciate having you on.
27:07
And hopefully the folks listening to this find some benefit from it too.
27:10
And even if just one firm gives some thought to, their future planning and
27:15
where they're going to take their firm and how they're going to exit, then I think
27:18
that we've been pretty successful here.
27:20
So thank you so much.
27:21
Great.
27:22
Thank you too.
27:22
So thanks to you, Chip.
27:23
Really appreciate it.
27:25
Find Jeremy through his website, SeniorAttorneyMatch.
27:27
com, or on Facebook and LinkedIn.
27:30
Lafleur Marketing Radio is a production of Lafleur Marketing.
27:33
Find us at Lafleur.
27:34
marketing and on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
27:38
Thank you for listening.