Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / How Often Should Couples Have Sex? Why the Real Answer Isn't a Number | Love | E542

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How Often Should Couples Have Sex? Why the Real Answer Isn't a Number | Love | E542 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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0:48
Speaker 2: I ask about, is the sex that you're having even good?
0:51
Speaker 2: Because realistically, if the sex that you're having is not
0:55
Speaker 2: that great, why would you want to have more of that?
1:00
Speaker 1: Everybody in a long term relationship is vulnerable to, over
1:05
Speaker 1: time having it start to feel more like your roommates
1:09
Speaker 1: are just really good friends rather than physically connected lovers.
1:14
Speaker 2: They're usually coming with desired discrepancy. So while partner would
1:19
Speaker 2: prefer to have more sex and the other one doesn't,
1:33
Speaker 2: If this.
1:34
Speaker 1: Is feeling true for you, I'm so glad you're here
1:36
Speaker 1: with us today. I have a very special guest on
1:40
Speaker 1: the show, my colleague and friend Dori Boggy, who is
1:45
Speaker 1: a therapist as well as a certified.
1:47
Speaker 3: Sex therapist, who is going to be breaking down the
1:51
Speaker 3: reasons why this can happen that spoiler alert are probably
1:57
Speaker 3: going to be a little bit new for you.
2:01
Speaker 1: There are things that can get in the way of
2:03
Speaker 1: your emotional and physical intimacy that are kind of sleepers,
2:07
Speaker 1: and that until you know to look for them, you
2:09
Speaker 1: don't see them at all. But seeing them and getting
2:12
Speaker 1: visibility into this can then give you opportunities to resolve
2:17
Speaker 1: this in a more direct and effective way.
2:30
Speaker 2: It comes down to understanding and communicating about each person's
2:35
Speaker 2: needs and preferences, because once we start that conversation, couples
2:39
Speaker 2: often realize like, actually, that's not what I thought you
2:42
Speaker 2: were into, and that's not actually what I'm really into.
2:46
Speaker 1: So by the end of this conversation, you are going
2:49
Speaker 1: to walk out of this with a new perspective into
2:51
Speaker 1: your physical relationship with your partner and some new direction
2:56
Speaker 1: for how to get back on track with the positive
3:00
Speaker 1: and pleasurable parts of your relationship. Dory, I'm so glad
3:19
Speaker 1: you're here with me today.
3:20
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. This is very
3:23
Speaker 2: exciting to talk. Yeah.
3:24
Speaker 1: Well, and I know you know. The reason why I've
3:26
Speaker 1: really wanted to talk with you about this specifically is
3:29
Speaker 1: because you are doing this work day in day out
3:34
Speaker 1: with the couple, so your work with growing self and
3:37
Speaker 1: you have so much visibility into this. You're a true expert.
3:41
Speaker 1: And what I love about the way that you work
3:44
Speaker 1: is that you don't just like jump in and be like, okay,
3:48
Speaker 1: let's start doing stuff. You actually go through this extended
3:52
Speaker 1: assessment process where you're really getting under the hood with
3:56
Speaker 1: people to understand not just what the problem is, but
4:00
Speaker 1: like why so that when the time comes to address it,
4:04
Speaker 1: it is effective. We're doing what we need to do
4:08
Speaker 1: as opposed to just like their own spaghetti at a wall.
4:11
Speaker 1: And through this work you have uncovered a variety of
4:16
Speaker 1: things that can culminate in this like disconnection that is
4:21
Speaker 1: so problematic, and I just I love for you to
4:25
Speaker 1: take us into this, Like what do couples not realize
4:29
Speaker 1: when they're coming in the door saying we haven't had
4:31
Speaker 1: sex in a year? What do they not know yet
4:34
Speaker 1: that you help them see?
4:36
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, first of all, I think something that is
4:40
Speaker 2: very it goes under the ray. There are a lot
4:43
Speaker 2: that this is very common. A lot of couples struggle
4:48
Speaker 2: or at some point in their relationships have struggled with
4:51
Speaker 2: their sex life, not going as well as they would like,
4:55
Speaker 2: or it's not going as well as it used to,
4:58
Speaker 2: and they find various ways to try and figure it out,
5:03
Speaker 2: but not always successful.
5:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, what what do people come in the door
5:09
Speaker 1: believing is the problem? Let's start there.
5:14
Speaker 2: Well, usually they focus on frequency a lot of how
5:18
Speaker 2: often they think they should be having sex or how
5:21
Speaker 2: often they think happy couple should be having sex, And
5:25
Speaker 2: they get these numbers from various places, but not very
5:29
Speaker 2: good resources as far as how good as numbers are,
5:34
Speaker 2: because it is extremely common to not be happy one
5:40
Speaker 2: time or another with the frequency or the quality of
5:44
Speaker 2: the type of sex they're having.
5:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when people are like not having a good
5:49
Speaker 1: time or it is not happening enough, they start to
5:52
Speaker 1: maybe research, like what what should this be? And those
5:56
Speaker 1: those turn into like some maybe myths or misc inceptions around,
6:01
Speaker 1: like what is normal that maybe aren't normal? Is that
6:03
Speaker 1: what you're saying?
6:05
Speaker 2: Yes, so, I think a lot of couples feel like,
6:09
Speaker 2: you know, we should be having sex twice a week
6:11
Speaker 2: or you know, at least a couple of times of
6:14
Speaker 2: months because so and so said so, or I've seen
6:17
Speaker 2: that on the media somewhere. But that's not necessarily true,
6:21
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily about the quantity either. So there's a
6:24
Speaker 2: lot of moving pieces.
6:26
Speaker 1: And I say, you know what I'm imagining right now
6:28
Speaker 1: almost like a chart or something where you factor in
6:31
Speaker 1: like years of marriage plus age divided by whatever in
6:35
Speaker 1: order to like plus number of children. And that's like, yeah,
6:38
Speaker 1: it's like an algebra equation. It's like, and here's how
6:40
Speaker 1: many times a week you should be having sex. Oh
6:42
Speaker 1: my god, that is not sexy, like, not even a
6:44
Speaker 1: little bit.
6:45
Speaker 2: No are comparison, You're not sexy at all?
6:49
Speaker 1: Okay, So so that could be like in people, What
6:53
Speaker 1: are some of the other things that people believe that
6:56
Speaker 1: are just not either not true or not helpful and
7:00
Speaker 1: can maybe actually get in the way of their having
7:03
Speaker 1: the type of connection they want.
7:04
Speaker 2: Where do I even start, like much to unpack your
7:09
Speaker 2: so much misconceptions? You know, sometimes I do full sessions
7:14
Speaker 2: on well that's not true or that's not exactly how
7:17
Speaker 2: it is. But but generally for me to find out
7:20
Speaker 2: what are the myths that each individual or each couple
7:24
Speaker 2: believes that are myths, I do go through quite an
7:27
Speaker 2: extensive process of how did they learn about sex? What
7:31
Speaker 2: were the messaging as they were growing up or early
7:34
Speaker 2: in their lives post relationships, what did they learn from
7:38
Speaker 2: school or media or families? And then you know, obviously
7:43
Speaker 2: I uncover quite a few things that might not be
7:46
Speaker 2: quite accurate.
7:48
Speaker 1: A vision that you know, somebody walking in with like
7:50
Speaker 1: a bouquet of balloons.
7:53
Speaker 2: Right and you're just like popping that.
7:55
Speaker 1: Wood, I would. And it's these ideas about what it
7:59
Speaker 1: should be that are you saying that That is probably
8:02
Speaker 1: one of the big things that's actually getting in the
8:04
Speaker 1: way of people having a nice time with each other
8:06
Speaker 1: in a reality based way.
8:08
Speaker 2: It is like exactly what what it should be, what
8:10
Speaker 2: it should feel like, what what each person's role is.
8:14
Speaker 2: That's another big one of what's my role in this
8:18
Speaker 2: relationship to perform or to bring to the table. That's
8:23
Speaker 2: quite common.
8:24
Speaker 1: Give me an example of this, like what are we
8:26
Speaker 1: talking about right now? People having expectations about roles that
8:30
Speaker 1: aren't happening, and there it's impacting their enjoyment.
8:35
Speaker 2: It sounds like, so this could go as deep as
8:39
Speaker 2: you know, the role of the husband or wife and
8:42
Speaker 2: how much they should make each other happy, and also
8:49
Speaker 2: about how they should initiate and how long they should
8:55
Speaker 2: lost Like there's many things that people feel like it's
8:59
Speaker 2: their job to perform in a way, but it's often
9:03
Speaker 2: not the case. And I really do think that it
9:06
Speaker 2: comes down to understanding and communicating about each person's needs
9:12
Speaker 2: and preferences, because once we start that conversation, couples often
9:16
Speaker 2: realize like, actually, that's not what I thought you were into,
9:19
Speaker 2: and that's not actually what I'm really into, so let's
9:23
Speaker 2: come and come and talk about it.
9:27
Speaker 1: Well, I you know, and I could see how this
9:29
Speaker 1: would get complex in a relationship because I think that
9:34
Speaker 1: what we want in that experience can feel vulnerable to
9:38
Speaker 1: talk about, right, And I actually am thinking about a
9:44
Speaker 1: conversation that I had recently with doctor Nicole. She has
9:48
Speaker 1: the most remarkable book. It's wonderful, It's you could be
9:50
Speaker 1: having better sex. But a lot of what we talked
9:52
Speaker 1: about is how difficult it is to have open conversations
9:56
Speaker 1: about sexuality and how that's oftentimes the starting point. What
10:00
Speaker 1: you're finding is that it can turn into relational but
10:04
Speaker 1: also intimacy problems when people are not communicating, but they
10:09
Speaker 1: have these expectations of the other person that have maybe
10:12
Speaker 1: never even been articulated, so they're feeling disappointed. It's like
10:16
Speaker 1: easy to see how people get disconnected because of that
10:21
Speaker 1: and resentment.
10:22
Speaker 2: I'm guessing yes, a lot of resentment when it doesn't
10:26
Speaker 2: really need to be. They were able to communicate, and
10:30
Speaker 2: but that's the group pot about doing this work.
10:33
Speaker 1: These are some of the reasons that contribute to problems.
10:37
Speaker 1: But I'm also curious to know from your experience, what
10:42
Speaker 1: is the meaning that people make, Like, even if they're
10:45
Speaker 1: not talking about it with their partner, we have private
10:49
Speaker 1: opinions about what the problem is. And they're coming to
10:53
Speaker 1: talk to you a sex therapist, right, and so what
10:56
Speaker 1: are they imagining you are going to want to check
11:00
Speaker 1: versus the reality of what is actually the problem? So, like,
11:05
Speaker 1: give me some examples of what people think is the problem.
11:08
Speaker 2: Is a very common one and it's always such a
11:11
Speaker 2: shock when I tell them, like, that's not exactly what
11:15
Speaker 2: we're going to be doing. But they're usually coming with
11:19
Speaker 2: desire discrepancy. So one partner would prefer to have more
11:23
Speaker 2: sex and the other one doesn't, so there is a
11:27
Speaker 2: low libido we can call it libido, but like a
11:29
Speaker 2: low desire partner and higher desire partner. So they're coming
11:34
Speaker 2: and they expect me to say, Okay, we're going to
11:38
Speaker 2: be working on the lower desire partner to want to
11:42
Speaker 2: have sex more, and then the rude awakening comes. Then
11:47
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, that might be a beautiful outcome that
11:51
Speaker 2: we're going to achieve, but that's not exactly what we're
11:54
Speaker 2: going to be focusing on. There's a lot of feeling empowered.
11:59
Speaker 2: There's so much to do, and the work requires both partners,
12:04
Speaker 2: not just that the lower libido partner is the problem.
12:07
Speaker 2: This is a team work, this is joint effort, so
12:11
Speaker 2: everybody needs to do their own part in some ways.
12:15
Speaker 1: Now, the most I would think be hard for you
12:17
Speaker 1: and your role if somebody's like, you're going to tell
12:20
Speaker 1: them that they need to step it up right, and
12:22
Speaker 1: then you're like, actually, no.
12:26
Speaker 2: What do you do instead?
12:29
Speaker 1: Where do you take them?
12:30
Speaker 2: Well, we, like I said earlier, we talked a lot
12:34
Speaker 2: about where are these expectations coming from, Where are these
12:38
Speaker 2: imagined ideas or not imagined real ideas coming from. What
12:43
Speaker 2: sex should be like, how it should feel, how often
12:46
Speaker 2: we should do it. But we focus more on the
12:49
Speaker 2: quality not quantity.
12:51
Speaker 4: I see.
12:52
Speaker 2: I ask about is the sex that you're having even good?
12:55
Speaker 2: Because realistically, if the sex that you're having is not
12:59
Speaker 2: that great, Why would you want to have more of that?
13:03
Speaker 2: So we talk about that as well. We talk about
13:05
Speaker 2: how the desire is sometimes spontaneous, which is great for
13:11
Speaker 2: the person that has spontaneous desire, but not so great
13:15
Speaker 2: if they're if their partner's desire is more responsive. So
13:20
Speaker 2: we talk about this as well, and I'm.
13:22
Speaker 1: Happy a little bit just friends who are listening to
13:25
Speaker 1: us right now. This is an important concept, genious versus
13:30
Speaker 1: my goodness, receptive reactive exactly. So this is a very
13:37
Speaker 1: great concept to think about. It's a little bit about
13:40
Speaker 1: how our biology works differently. I'm not going to go
13:43
Speaker 1: too much into that, but essentially what it is is
13:46
Speaker 1: that some people have this desire coming from within to
13:51
Speaker 1: want to engage in sexual interactions with their partner and
13:55
Speaker 1: the other person. That's called the spontaneous desire. Well, their
14:00
Speaker 1: partner might have responsive desires. So that is when things
14:05
Speaker 1: are already happening. We are already down the road of intimacy. Actually, see,
14:12
Speaker 1: that's when the desire kicks in. So imagine just like
14:16
Speaker 1: thinking that you need to go to the gym, and
14:20
Speaker 1: some people are great, They just know that they need
14:22
Speaker 1: to go to the gym, and they put their trainers
14:25
Speaker 1: on and off they go, and the other people don't
14:28
Speaker 1: really want to go.
14:30
Speaker 2: They kind of make themselves there one way or another.
14:33
Speaker 2: But once they're there, they're like, Okay, this is actually
14:35
Speaker 2: not too good. I'm enjoying this. I see why I'm
14:38
Speaker 2: doing this. This is great. Obviously it's not a great example,
14:42
Speaker 2: but it's similar to that that sometimes sometimes that really
14:47
Speaker 2: enjoying part or enjoyment park kicks in once you're already
14:51
Speaker 2: in the promise.
14:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Like there's somebody who's driver like I really
14:56
Speaker 1: want to go to the gym, It's going to be great,
14:57
Speaker 1: and nobody's like, oh my god. But then they're like, oh,
15:00
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I did that. We should do this
15:02
Speaker 1: again sometime like that kind of thing. Exactly the differences,
15:05
Speaker 1: and certainly I think if one person is kind of
15:08
Speaker 1: a natural driver of the sort of thing and is
15:10
Speaker 1: expecting their partner to operate in the same way, that's
15:14
Speaker 1: really not true for them. They might feel disappointed or
15:17
Speaker 1: like something is wrong, when in fact some people just
15:20
Speaker 1: have a more responsive sexuality exactly.
15:24
Speaker 2: And this is when we talk about how you initiate,
15:27
Speaker 2: because maybe that could be something we could work on.
15:32
Speaker 2: How how are you trying to get your partnering the mood?
15:36
Speaker 2: Maybe that's an important pace to discuss.
15:40
Speaker 1: Okay, so what are some other invisible things you know,
15:43
Speaker 1: because and right now I'm thinking about there was I
15:46
Speaker 1: think it was actually a YouTube episode that I did
15:49
Speaker 1: a while ago. It was like on the topic of
15:52
Speaker 1: the dead bedroom, right, and it was so fascinating to
15:55
Speaker 1: me to like go through the comments and people were
15:58
Speaker 1: so who are having this experience? And understandably so, you know,
16:02
Speaker 1: they were feeling hurt, they were feeling frustrated. They're like,
16:06
Speaker 1: my partner never wants to at all, and I just like,
16:10
Speaker 1: ever every time I approach it, they're like totally shut
16:12
Speaker 1: me down, and like they are genuinely perplexed honestly, like
16:17
Speaker 1: they're angry and upset about it. But they're also like
16:19
Speaker 1: they do not have visibility into what the actual problem is,
16:23
Speaker 1: which I think is why they feel so frustrated. Right
16:25
Speaker 1: There's this sense of helplessness of it. I don't know
16:28
Speaker 1: what to do to fix it, and it feels like
16:30
Speaker 1: the other person has all the power in the situation.
16:33
Speaker 1: What do they not know? What are some of the
16:35
Speaker 1: other things that, in your experience are probably going on
16:38
Speaker 1: that are contributing to this, that going through the transformational
16:44
Speaker 1: experience with somebody like you would help them say.
16:47
Speaker 2: There could be a number of things, but somethings that
16:50
Speaker 2: I see commonly could be body image is shoes that
16:54
Speaker 2: they might not feel very good about themselves and what
16:57
Speaker 2: they look like or what they mentioned the partner would
17:01
Speaker 2: be viewing them as that's actually a quite a significant one,
17:06
Speaker 2: especially for women after a childbirth, where it's rarely issue.
17:13
Speaker 2: Their partner still sees them as beautiful. But that is
17:17
Speaker 2: definitely something that comes up quite often. Other biological issues
17:22
Speaker 2: so hormonal and it's over time, yes, exactly. So that
17:26
Speaker 2: could impact a lot of things that people might not
17:29
Speaker 2: even consider. So it does. I don't know how much
17:32
Speaker 2: in detail you want me to go.
17:34
Speaker 1: People would be like, oh, okay, this is maybe what
17:38
Speaker 1: is going on with my partner that if we were
17:41
Speaker 1: to address these things directly then it could get better.
17:44
Speaker 1: But that makes total sense, Like hormonal fluctuations, right, it
17:48
Speaker 1: could explain be one thing that would explain like, you know,
17:51
Speaker 1: we used to be intimate all the time when we
17:53
Speaker 1: were both younger and now we're forty five, and it's different, right,
17:57
Speaker 1: Body image issues like people feeling shame or exnxiety around that.
18:01
Speaker 2: We can talk about the emotional intimacy part and novelty
18:06
Speaker 2: piece of you know, are we excited about each other?
18:09
Speaker 2: Are we still finding new things or exciting things about
18:13
Speaker 2: the sex life that we're having, because you'll find that
18:16
Speaker 2: often not really, they just do the same mother or
18:21
Speaker 2: two use that's not very exciting. So that's why I'm
18:25
Speaker 2: like I said, the earlier type of sex they're having,
18:28
Speaker 2: the quality of the sex they're having, is it good?
18:31
Speaker 2: Because if it's not on, then it's hard to feel
18:34
Speaker 2: a little real excited about it.
18:36
Speaker 1: Somebody though, who's like my partner never wants to be
18:38
Speaker 1: with me, and like, just you know, I'm just imagining
18:41
Speaker 1: how triggering or upsetting that might be. And the reality
18:45
Speaker 1: is like, you know what, it's not actually that good
18:47
Speaker 1: for me when we do, so you know, yeah, I'm
18:50
Speaker 1: not that enthusiastic about it. Like I mean, are those
18:53
Speaker 1: the kind of conversations that are actually happening with you?
18:56
Speaker 1: Because I would imagine that's that could be difficult to
18:59
Speaker 1: navigate it. Somebody has to sit with that reality and be.
19:02
Speaker 2: Like, oh, honestly, it is, but it's not. When we
19:07
Speaker 2: have these conversations in sessions, it's not as upsetting because
19:12
Speaker 2: by that time the couples already have learned so much
19:15
Speaker 2: about themselves and each other. So when we get to
19:19
Speaker 2: the okay, so what does good sex actually look like
19:22
Speaker 2: for you, they already have gone through quite a lot
19:26
Speaker 2: of deep conversations that are actually quite important to have
19:31
Speaker 2: to get to this place of Okay, let's talk about
19:34
Speaker 2: what will work.
19:35
Speaker 1: Right and see, honestly, like, as you're talking this the
19:40
Speaker 1: power of doing this type of work with you versus
19:46
Speaker 1: I think what I'm hearing just more and more lately.
19:50
Speaker 1: So you know, the people writing the books se help
19:54
Speaker 1: right for us to just cognitive scaffolding right and taking
19:59
Speaker 1: an information certainly you know, claud or GPT whatever like
20:04
Speaker 1: advice dispensers like try this, Like okay, cool. But what
20:09
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say is what I think the reality
20:13
Speaker 1: of the type of work that we do right as
20:16
Speaker 1: as therapists is that there is an experiential growth process
20:21
Speaker 1: that happens over time and in an organized way that
20:25
Speaker 1: you are moving people through really thoughtfully. So people are
20:31
Speaker 1: you know, coming in hot first couple sessions and they're
20:34
Speaker 1: upset with each other, and it feels impossible to talk about,
20:36
Speaker 1: and then like twelve weeks later, there's this this softening
20:41
Speaker 1: like they have been changed through the experience in a
20:44
Speaker 1: gentle way, so that you know, eight nine, ten sessions
20:47
Speaker 1: in the kind of conversations that we're talking about right
20:51
Speaker 1: now don't actually feel hard or scary, and you're also
20:55
Speaker 1: there to help. And there's like this experiential quality that
20:59
Speaker 1: I think some times people don't it's part of It's
21:02
Speaker 1: like a hidden thing in what we do.
21:04
Speaker 2: Is that absolutely, yeah, you did it so well, because yes,
21:09
Speaker 2: I can't exactly start talking about all.
21:12
Speaker 5: The sorry, tell me about the kind of SEXU that's
21:18
Speaker 5: that's not really where we start. We'll get there as
21:22
Speaker 5: far as the goal of let's have more sex would
21:24
Speaker 5: be a great outcome, but that's and it usually is,
21:27
Speaker 5: but it's not where we start. We do need to
21:29
Speaker 5: walk through a path where you learn to understand yourself,
21:34
Speaker 5: understand your partner, understand how communicate about desires and needs
21:40
Speaker 5: and boundaries even and by the end of the work
21:45
Speaker 5: that we do, we have the outcome that they hoped for,
21:49
Speaker 5: but we might be going on about it in a
21:52
Speaker 5: slightly different way than they imagined.
21:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, so good. So hey, we need to take a
21:59
Speaker 1: super fast to break And on the other side, can
22:03
Speaker 1: I ask you, like a really up about a question
22:10
Speaker 1: that I think is probably really scary for a lot
22:13
Speaker 1: of people to cut front head on, related to what
22:19
Speaker 1: is the path forward If someone's desire for their partner
22:24
Speaker 1: has changed over time, they're actually not that attracted to them,
22:29
Speaker 1: or they have evolved and now they're sort of interested
22:32
Speaker 1: in other things, it might not be possible in this relationship,
22:36
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Speaker 1: Quinns dot com slash LHS. We're back with my colleague
25:14
Speaker 1: Curate growing Self Dory Boggy, who is sex therapist. Hello,
25:19
Speaker 1: and so right before the break we paused on a
25:22
Speaker 1: cliffhanger and I really wanted you to speak to this
25:25
Speaker 1: because I feel like this is sometimes a secret fear
25:29
Speaker 1: that people are harboring. They still have a sex drive,
25:32
Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, they're not experiencing the same level
25:37
Speaker 1: of attraction to their partner. So maybe they are utilizing
25:42
Speaker 1: porn or I think that And I don't want to
25:45
Speaker 1: genderify this, but a female equivalent could be smutty erotic fiction, right,
25:50
Speaker 1: And like they have a sex life, it's just not
25:53
Speaker 1: one that is being shared with a partner, and that
25:57
Speaker 1: there's a when it comes to the idea of being
26:01
Speaker 1: sexually intimate with that specific person where in the past
26:05
Speaker 1: perhaps they experienced warm attraction but it's changed and they
26:09
Speaker 1: don't anymore. That feels like the third rail to me
26:12
Speaker 1: in this landscape. I mean, that's scary, I would think
26:16
Speaker 1: to acknowledge or is.
26:17
Speaker 2: It it is? And you know, this does come up
26:22
Speaker 2: quite often, whether it's the lack of attraction or whether
26:26
Speaker 2: it's being into something that we feel our partners might
26:30
Speaker 2: not be interested in pursuing with us, and it is
26:33
Speaker 2: definitely a difficult conversation because in our minds, if we
26:38
Speaker 2: have an alternative interest, we often think that there's no
26:41
Speaker 2: way my partner can perform that, or they would be
26:44
Speaker 2: interested in that, or they are even open to the conversation,
26:49
Speaker 2: or maybe we already broached the conversation in a soft
26:53
Speaker 2: launch kind of way of what do you think about this?
26:56
Speaker 2: Or have you thought about that? Or this is how
26:58
Speaker 2: I feel, whether it's the traction piece or something else,
27:02
Speaker 2: and their partner had an offhanded response, So now we
27:06
Speaker 2: think that that's definitely how it's going to go. But
27:09
Speaker 2: more often than not, if the conversation is open and honest,
27:14
Speaker 2: if a couple is able to have a conversation like that,
27:18
Speaker 2: then we can find the core of what the interest
27:25
Speaker 2: is of the person who feels like they have changed.
27:29
Speaker 2: What is it that's really interesting interests them? And in
27:33
Speaker 2: my experience, and obviously there's many other dynamics out there,
27:38
Speaker 2: but in my experience, there is often a way to
27:43
Speaker 2: have a fun or an exciting experience within the relationship,
27:49
Speaker 2: and sometimes they cannot.
27:51
Speaker 1: But okay, well then we could talk about that post.
27:54
Speaker 1: But like, so what an example of that? And so okay,
27:59
Speaker 1: and just to be more concrete, and I hope I'm
28:01
Speaker 1: not shocking any listeners.
28:04
Speaker 6: I guess if you're listening to this with small children
28:06
Speaker 6: in the car, like ear muffs everybody, But like, okay,
28:09
Speaker 6: so an example, right, I mean, you've been with somebody
28:11
Speaker 6: for a long time, we get older, our bodies change.
28:14
Speaker 1: It's happened, right, And so to say, and I hate
28:18
Speaker 1: to put gender labels on these things because I believe
28:22
Speaker 1: that women or you know, non binary people are fully
28:26
Speaker 1: capable of having a similar experience. But say someone's is
28:31
Speaker 1: very oriented visually, so maybe they are watching porn right
28:36
Speaker 1: and seeing people who are conventionally very attractive, They're very fit,
28:41
Speaker 1: they have these beautiful bodies, and like that is part
28:43
Speaker 1: of the erotic experience. And then of course, you know,
28:47
Speaker 1: and now your partner is like actually forty eight and
28:50
Speaker 1: they have these weird little like arm things, and you know,
28:52
Speaker 1: like your your body changes and your boobs aren't where
28:54
Speaker 1: they used to be twenty years ago. I mean like, oh,
28:56
Speaker 1: that's not too graphic, but like and so like there's
28:59
Speaker 1: a differentfference in what people are attracted to and what
29:03
Speaker 1: exists in reality, and I know that's very superficial and
29:06
Speaker 1: there can still be love and like different layers of attraction,
29:09
Speaker 1: but in terms of iratic attraction, they they're kind of
29:13
Speaker 1: dialed into something else. What would be a path forward
29:16
Speaker 1: in that kind of situation.
29:19
Speaker 2: I find that the visuals stimuli that I think you're
29:24
Speaker 2: you know, we are talking about is one part of
29:28
Speaker 2: the eroticism that that drives desire. And while it's a
29:33
Speaker 2: big one, it is not necessarily the only one. So
29:36
Speaker 2: if the couple is able to find their way back
29:40
Speaker 2: to eroticism in some way, which they often can, then
29:47
Speaker 2: they will not be so focused on just the visuals.
29:50
Speaker 2: There is a lot more sensory stimuli there than just
29:55
Speaker 2: the visuals. You know, what feels good, what sounds good,
30:00
Speaker 2: what kind of movements are pleasurable? Like, there's a lot
30:03
Speaker 2: more to it than just the visuals. And often even
30:07
Speaker 2: if they have the conviction that you know, someone must
30:12
Speaker 2: look a certain way, if you really go into it
30:15
Speaker 2: with a partner that's open to try new things, different things,
30:18
Speaker 2: they find something that is very erotic to them and
30:23
Speaker 2: then desire comes back.
30:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really cool, and that being having the courage
30:30
Speaker 1: to really like go into this and say it out
30:32
Speaker 1: loud and talk about it openly in a supported space
30:35
Speaker 1: that it we can unpack it and it becomes much
30:39
Speaker 1: more multi dimensional as opposed to this black or white.
30:44
Speaker 1: It's there. It's not type thing that maybe people could
30:47
Speaker 1: get stuck on without that.
30:49
Speaker 2: Were you about to say something, No, I was just
30:51
Speaker 2: going to say that. And I think a lot of
30:54
Speaker 2: people can relate to this, that if you're really into
30:57
Speaker 2: someone for other reasons, they could grow up third arm
31:02
Speaker 2: and you would still find them incredibly sexy. It's not
31:05
Speaker 2: necessarily just the visuals. It's it's a lot of about
31:09
Speaker 2: the energy and the vines between people.
31:13
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, And then you're saying like, even if it
31:17
Speaker 1: feels like it's not possible, there are there's.
31:19
Speaker 2: A way to get there. There is a way, absolutely.
31:22
Speaker 2: And this is also for the listeners out there who
31:26
Speaker 2: feel like their body might not be something that their
31:29
Speaker 2: partner might be into. That is rarely the case. Everybody
31:33
Speaker 2: could be extremely erotic. It's it's a matter of finding
31:38
Speaker 2: out what drives each person's desire.
31:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have to take one more super fast break,
31:46
Speaker 1: and what I want to ask you about on the
31:48
Speaker 1: other side of this one is related to this is
31:51
Speaker 1: this is another hard one. I'm throwing all the hard
31:53
Speaker 1: questions that you dore, but well, because I know you're
31:56
Speaker 1: such an expert in this area. So like, I think
31:59
Speaker 1: another really hard situation for a lot of people is
32:02
Speaker 1: what if it seems like their partner is simply not
32:07
Speaker 1: interested in participating in what you're talking right now, because
32:12
Speaker 1: it seems like there would need to be a shared
32:16
Speaker 1: commitment to having a better experience on both sides, and
32:22
Speaker 1: if somebody is so deeply disconnected from their own desire
32:27
Speaker 1: to have desire or is like yeah, I'm not doing that.
32:30
Speaker 1: You know, where do we go with that? Is there
32:33
Speaker 1: a path forward? You guys welcome back? Or with my
32:50
Speaker 1: friend and colleague Dory Boggy, a certified sex therapies, you're
32:54
Speaker 1: with me a growing self and she is taking us
32:57
Speaker 1: all the way into these really I think challenging questions
33:02
Speaker 1: and like like gridlock spaces that couples can face when
33:07
Speaker 1: it comes to their physical connection. And so Dori, just
33:11
Speaker 1: before the break, you know, we floated the idea of
33:13
Speaker 1: talking about this very hard situation where it can feel
33:18
Speaker 1: like one person is simply not that interested in putting
33:23
Speaker 1: energy into that part of the relationship, right, do you
33:27
Speaker 1: ever see that with your couples or is it more
33:29
Speaker 1: like an individual thing where people come in and they're like,
33:32
Speaker 1: my partner won't even come and talk to you with me,
33:36
Speaker 1: Like that's how far gone this feels. Just do you
33:38
Speaker 1: ever encounter that different levels of interest in fixing the problem?
33:41
Speaker 2: I guess there there definitely are different levels of interest,
33:45
Speaker 2: and and it does depend on the relationship state at
33:49
Speaker 2: the moment. It depends on a lot of things. But
33:53
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's it's definitely a lot more challenging
33:57
Speaker 2: to figure out a relationship or sexual relation between two
34:00
Speaker 2: people with one of them is not interested in sere
34:05
Speaker 2: I am, what's going on?
34:08
Speaker 1: Yeah?
34:08
Speaker 4: Where do you go with?
34:09
Speaker 1: Or just have open conversations around like it sounds like
34:14
Speaker 1: this person is not interested in this dimension of relationship
34:19
Speaker 1: because and you know, just just as a little aside,
34:21
Speaker 1: you and I both know this, but just for the
34:23
Speaker 1: benefit of our listeners, a healthy whole relationship has so
34:27
Speaker 1: many different parts. A couple can have a shared life
34:32
Speaker 1: together that's a social life and shared as parents and
34:35
Speaker 1: kind of operating a home and have a strong friendship
34:38
Speaker 1: and have all kinds of different things that are like
34:41
Speaker 1: pillars of a relationship, and sexual intimacy can be one
34:46
Speaker 1: of them. But for somebody to say no, but all
34:49
Speaker 1: these other things are good enough for me, we could
34:52
Speaker 1: just take that one out. And the other person is like,
34:54
Speaker 1: but I kind of stile want that one, Like, is
34:57
Speaker 1: there a way to I don't know, how do you
35:01
Speaker 1: even address that?
35:02
Speaker 2: So that's quite a challenging one. But I do see
35:06
Speaker 2: that happen, and I have seen that happen and pan
35:09
Speaker 2: out in various different ways. So if I have the
35:12
Speaker 2: opportunity to talk to both partners, then hypothetically one of
35:17
Speaker 2: them says, actually, I love my relationship everything about it,
35:22
Speaker 2: except I just I'm just not interested in sex at all.
35:26
Speaker 2: If I'm able to understand where that's coming from, it
35:30
Speaker 2: might shift, because there's a lot of reasons why someone
35:33
Speaker 2: might feel like that at the moment, and if I
35:35
Speaker 2: understand why, then then we can absolutely work on that. However,
35:40
Speaker 2: if we've gone through all of the potential things, you know,
35:44
Speaker 2: traumas or physical limitations or just a variety of things,
35:50
Speaker 2: then we can also talk about what would it mean
35:52
Speaker 2: for us if we are not participating in a sexual
35:56
Speaker 2: encounter with our partners, What would it mean if they
36:00
Speaker 2: did but not with us, whether that is an option
36:02
Speaker 2: and then sometimes it is and sometimes it's not. But
36:07
Speaker 2: at least the topic is.
36:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I totally get that that if somebody's like,
36:13
Speaker 1: I don't want to participate in this part of the relationship,
36:16
Speaker 1: you know, would it be okay if you do want
36:18
Speaker 1: to have that in your life for you to go
36:20
Speaker 1: do that with other people? And that can also be
36:23
Speaker 1: a very challenging conversation. But you know, I think the
36:26
Speaker 1: alternative is, well, I don't know, I mean, is this true?
36:30
Speaker 1: Like you know that the person who's not participating gets
36:33
Speaker 1: to sort of define the conditions of the relationship that
36:37
Speaker 1: the other person has to participate in, right, almost like
36:40
Speaker 1: holding somebody hostage in the sexless relationship for the rest
36:43
Speaker 1: of their lives without you know, it being okay for
36:46
Speaker 1: them to want that. And is there a middle path
36:50
Speaker 1: where they can keep the good parts of their relationship?
36:52
Speaker 2: Hopefully? And usually we find a way together, but there
36:57
Speaker 2: are opportunities, or there are times andynamics where the way
37:02
Speaker 2: forward is to, yes, have one person that still wants
37:05
Speaker 2: to be sexual, experience that outside of the relationship, if
37:11
Speaker 2: that feels comfortable for everyone, and sometimes it does, so
37:15
Speaker 2: we can talk about how that works, because that is
37:17
Speaker 2: also something that needs to That is absolutely something that
37:21
Speaker 2: needs to happen in an extremely honest and open way
37:26
Speaker 2: to understand where each person's desires are or what their
37:31
Speaker 2: what their ideas are of what they would want to experience,
37:34
Speaker 2: but also what are the boundaries and the limitations of
37:39
Speaker 2: that dynamic.
37:41
Speaker 1: Right, my goodness, that's probably a whole other podcast episode.
37:45
Speaker 1: Isn't it for us to talk about? That is a
37:48
Speaker 1: very compost well, you know, like opening up a relationship
37:51
Speaker 1: like that's a deal and needs to be done very
37:55
Speaker 1: I would think thoughtfully and ethically. Would you say that
38:00
Speaker 1: it is probably for the best if you're thinking that
38:05
Speaker 1: might be in your future to get the support of
38:07
Speaker 1: somebody like you to be having these preliminary conversations see
38:12
Speaker 1: what is possible within their relationship, but then also getting
38:16
Speaker 1: support for navigating that ethical non monogamy in a organized
38:22
Speaker 1: way or have you seen people do that successfully without support?
38:30
Speaker 1: I'm just man, there was probably so many landmines to
38:33
Speaker 1: step on when you start going in that direction. I
38:35
Speaker 1: would think so.
38:36
Speaker 2: Many, So I for this, I definitely would suggest to
38:41
Speaker 2: talk to someone that is an expert in this, because
38:46
Speaker 2: even if you feel like that is where we had it,
38:49
Speaker 2: sometimes we don't have that way. There's other ways and
38:54
Speaker 2: we can find a really great dynamic within the relationship.
39:00
Speaker 2: Wor if that is definitely where you want to go there,
39:05
Speaker 2: there's just so many things to consider that you might
39:08
Speaker 2: not think top of your mind. And when I get
39:11
Speaker 2: into these conversations with clients, they are quite like, oh, wow,
39:15
Speaker 2: I didn't think of that.
39:17
Speaker 1: Or example, what are you thinking of right now?
39:19
Speaker 2: Well, so wow, to go into this, really, I feel
39:24
Speaker 2: like I can't really just skim the so.
39:27
Speaker 1: You we need to we need about you. I mean,
39:30
Speaker 1: you're so thoughtful and it really is nuanced, it is complex,
39:34
Speaker 1: and I think I have to just share personally, Like
39:37
Speaker 1: that's why I'm so excited to talk with you about
39:41
Speaker 1: this topic, because I think you know you're you're the
39:45
Speaker 1: real deal, Dory, and you know that there's not like
39:48
Speaker 1: three tips to transform your love life or whatever. I mean, like,
39:52
Speaker 1: there's a lot here. And so even just your response
39:55
Speaker 1: to that question, you're like, oh, it depends. I think
39:58
Speaker 1: that that's just so valid and I wanted to honor
40:00
Speaker 1: so for anybody listening to this being frustrated, they're like, Okay,
40:03
Speaker 1: here's the recipe for XYZ.
40:05
Speaker 7: Like you guys, this is actually the real deal, so
40:09
Speaker 7: you know, sorry, But and with that in mind, you know,
40:14
Speaker 7: is there one type of complexity that could come up
40:18
Speaker 7: hypothetically that might need to be addressed that is.
40:24
Speaker 1: Hard to do without the support of a professional like
40:26
Speaker 1: yourself because of either just not having visibility into it
40:31
Speaker 1: or also I would think there could be a lot
40:34
Speaker 1: of reactivity when people try to talk about some of
40:37
Speaker 1: the stuff on their own.
40:39
Speaker 2: Well, one of the really common ones is the jealousy piece,
40:45
Speaker 2: the boundaries, what is okay, what is not okay? Some
40:50
Speaker 2: people might not even consider the type of protection that
40:53
Speaker 2: they might use, or what's what's involved with that or
40:56
Speaker 2: what can you do and what can you not do
41:00
Speaker 2: with that type of protection? If that's what the topic is,
41:04
Speaker 2: There's just so much Also, how are we going to
41:07
Speaker 2: communicate about it, how much each partner is going to
41:10
Speaker 2: share or ask? There's just many layers to it that
41:17
Speaker 2: you might not think about before heading into this.
41:21
Speaker 1: What I would love to have you talk about just
41:23
Speaker 1: a little bit is a fact that what we are
41:26
Speaker 1: talking about right now is not trite advice. It is
41:29
Speaker 1: not superficial, it is experiential. There are complexity complexities. What
41:35
Speaker 1: you're talking about is how to how you, as an expert,
41:39
Speaker 1: would like organize this work where you would take people
41:42
Speaker 1: And I imagine people listening to this are like, yeah,
41:45
Speaker 1: that's definitely what I need. Hand. I want to hear
41:48
Speaker 1: your insight into what people need to be thinking about
41:52
Speaker 1: in order to make good choices as to the type
41:55
Speaker 1: of helper they engage with. Because and this is something
41:58
Speaker 1: that I talk about on the show related to just
42:01
Speaker 1: more general couples work. What many people don't know is
42:05
Speaker 1: that all therapists are not the same, right It's like
42:09
Speaker 1: different kinds of doctors. One person is an oncologist, the
42:13
Speaker 1: other person is a dermatologist. They're not the same thing.
42:17
Speaker 1: And I think that in our culture right now, a
42:19
Speaker 1: lot of people believe like therapy is therapy, not understanding
42:24
Speaker 1: that there is clinical mental health. There is also like
42:28
Speaker 1: personal development and growth work, like how what do we
42:32
Speaker 1: need to do differently in order to get better outcomes
42:35
Speaker 1: with each other, which is often in the coaching realm,
42:37
Speaker 1: and you know, especially in situations like sexuality, with the
42:42
Speaker 1: dimensionality of it, sometimes it can be like, okay, so
42:45
Speaker 1: what do we need to understand, what do we need
42:47
Speaker 1: to learn, what do we need to do differently? How
42:49
Speaker 1: can we grow together? But then other times like there
42:52
Speaker 1: can actually be clinical things at the core, like if
42:55
Speaker 1: somebody is a trauma survivor right, there's childhood sexual abuse
43:00
Speaker 1: is part of this picture. That is absolutely a clinical
43:03
Speaker 1: thing that needs to be handled differently. And so when
43:06
Speaker 1: somebody is thinking about getting the right type of help,
43:10
Speaker 1: what would you tell them to avoid getting entangled with
43:14
Speaker 1: a basic therapist who would not have the same training
43:20
Speaker 1: insight ability that you're describing here, so that it doesn't
43:25
Speaker 1: wind up being a waste of their time and money.
43:26
Speaker 2: And this is a really good point. And you know,
43:29
Speaker 2: when I meet potential new clients, if for some reason
43:33
Speaker 2: we can't work together with the or due to time zones,
43:36
Speaker 2: I always say, please make sure that you find someone
43:40
Speaker 2: that is accredited or has the background in sexually or
43:45
Speaker 2: sexual health, because there's a lot of research out there
43:49
Speaker 2: to indicate that a lot of therapists unfortunately that's just
43:53
Speaker 2: how you know, we are trained not very comfortable talking
43:57
Speaker 2: about certain topics around sexual health. And once you know
44:01
Speaker 2: a client sees a therapist get flustered or flinched about
44:06
Speaker 2: a topic, they're not going to want to open up.
44:10
Speaker 2: So they need to find someone who is very confident
44:13
Speaker 2: and knowledgeable about all that is to know about sexuality.
44:19
Speaker 2: While I have a master's agree inment, but there's a
44:22
Speaker 2: lot of you know, other trainings and programs that might
44:27
Speaker 2: be okay today.
44:29
Speaker 1: What you're saying is to like read the fine print
44:32
Speaker 1: when you're like, take a look at their background, training experience.
44:37
Speaker 1: Are they explicitly mentioning specialized training and experience in sexuality?
44:43
Speaker 1: Are there certain certifications or designations that people should look
44:47
Speaker 1: for and also speak to? This is what I would
44:50
Speaker 1: also think that having a background in marriage and family
44:54
Speaker 1: therapy would also be very helpful, just like with the
44:58
Speaker 1: systemic pieces of yes, sexuality training on top of it.
45:03
Speaker 1: Is that what you would suggest.
45:04
Speaker 2: Ideally, Yes, and that's a very unique person. But but
45:10
Speaker 2: we are out there, so you know, make sure you
45:12
Speaker 2: make sure, make sure you find the right person that
45:17
Speaker 2: can confidently support you through these process because it's not
45:20
Speaker 2: an easy one.
45:22
Speaker 1: No, no, God, but unicorn, you're you're like a unicorn
45:26
Speaker 1: glitter pegasus.
45:27
Speaker 2: That's one of accreditations, Like you you're so kind, accreditations.
45:32
Speaker 2: They it changes based on states countries, So just make
45:36
Speaker 2: sure that the person that you're talking to has the
45:39
Speaker 2: right ones.
45:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, and also okay and then before I let
45:42
Speaker 1: you go. So there's definitely there can be a therapeutic
45:48
Speaker 1: component to this. So somebody coming in and they're like,
45:51
Speaker 1: is you know, deep trauma at the core, and of
45:54
Speaker 1: course we need clinical mental health treatment in that regard
45:57
Speaker 1: that that is you know, sexually informed and can do
46:01
Speaker 1: And I think there's also a space for somebody like
46:03
Speaker 1: yourself who has a strong orientation around coaching psychology. So
46:08
Speaker 1: you have the clinical mental health background, you also have
46:10
Speaker 1: the sexuality master's degree, but then on top of that
46:14
Speaker 1: have this coaching mindset. I just say a little bit,
46:17
Speaker 1: just again so that people can make informed choices as
46:20
Speaker 1: they're thinking about providers. You know, what does that coaching
46:23
Speaker 1: piece look like? Because we're not seeking to treat in coaching,
46:27
Speaker 1: we're seeking to create understanding and change outcomes. What is
46:31
Speaker 1: different about that.
46:32
Speaker 2: Well, I think the main difference is that that is
46:36
Speaker 2: very solution focused, sovia not sitting in so much of
46:40
Speaker 2: the processing. Well, obviously it provides context and if someone
46:44
Speaker 2: requires clinical support then absolutely that is very important. But
46:49
Speaker 2: if you're past that or that is not a requirement,
46:52
Speaker 2: then having a structured way forward and focusing on the
46:56
Speaker 2: solution and how we can get there is is what
47:02
Speaker 2: tends to work best, and that is what that's what.
47:05
Speaker 1: We do amazing well, and I love that because it's
47:08
Speaker 1: not just you know, how how do we feel about this?
47:10
Speaker 1: It is what we do anxiety, which I think can
47:13
Speaker 1: feel like a breath of fresh air. So amazing well Toere,
47:17
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing so many concrete examples
47:20
Speaker 1: of like things to think about differently and also things
47:24
Speaker 1: to do differently. I'm sure it's been very helpful for
47:26
Speaker 1: our friends here with us, and so of course I
47:29
Speaker 1: mean thank you too for sharing insights about how to connect.
47:32
Speaker 2: You so much for having me.
47:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll just say if anybody is excited about
47:37
Speaker 1: potentially talking with Dory you know about your situation and
47:41
Speaker 1: how she might be able to help you, that you're
47:43
Speaker 1: available through growingself dot com. You can just request to
47:46
Speaker 1: speak with Dory and talk. So okay, yeah, what's going on?
47:50
Speaker 2: We can't figure it out?
47:51
Speaker 1: Hopes and goals and as a starting point, yes, okay, great,
48:03
Speaker 1: Thank you thanks again for doing this with me and
48:06
Speaker 1: I'm already thinking about our next conversation, but I'm going
48:09
Speaker 1: to invite you back for.
48:10
Speaker 2: Oh there are so many, so many things to talk about.
48:13
Speaker 2: This is just the surface.
48:15
Speaker 1: Well, it's so fascinating.
48:17
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you again, Thank you, thank.
48:29
Speaker 1: You so much for spending this time with me today.
48:32
Speaker 1: And if you have found this episode helpful, do your
48:37
Speaker 1: good deed for the day, pass it on, pay it forward,
48:41
Speaker 1: Share this episode with someone you care about who might
48:46
Speaker 1: need to hear what you just heard today. Close your eyes,
48:50
Speaker 1: think about who that is, and then boop hits end. Now.
48:55
Speaker 1: As for you, if you are feeling inspired by what
48:59
Speaker 1: we talked about today, if you're ready to go deeper,
49:02
Speaker 1: whether it's in your relationship, your own personal development, or
49:07
Speaker 1: maybe even your bigger sense of purpose, I would love
49:10
Speaker 1: to help you. Come visit me at growing self dot com.
49:15
Speaker 1: I have so many free resources for you, but you
49:18
Speaker 1: can also schedule a free consultation with one of the
49:22
Speaker 1: amazing licensed therapists on my team, who like me, specialize
49:27
Speaker 1: in evidence based coaching psychology.
49:30
Speaker 4: You can do that.
49:31
Speaker 1: You can also explore the programs that we have designed
49:36
Speaker 1: for you to create real and lasting change in your
49:39
Speaker 1: life in a structured, step by step way, and do
49:44
Speaker 1: not forget to go into my blog and podcast, my
49:47
Speaker 1: content collections where you can find exactly what you need
49:52
Speaker 1: to support your journey of growth. And hey, let's also
49:57
Speaker 1: stay connected. If we're not already connected, come track me down.
50:01
Speaker 1: I am on Instagram periodically and would love to hear
50:06
Speaker 1: from you. Or if you have a question or comment
50:09
Speaker 1: about the show, just email me get in touch hellow
50:12
Speaker 1: at growingself dot com. All right, until next time, you
50:16
Speaker 1: take care and keep growing.