Latest / Mental Health and the Mission of the Church / From Crisis to Culture: Building a Mentally Healthy Church| Part 2

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From Crisis to Culture: Building a Mentally Healthy Church| Part 2 · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
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• 0:26
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• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: My preaching changed, and Christy was telling me the more you share with vulnerability, the more the church is going to respond, which was totally opposite of what my whole life had been about.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: I thought if you knew I was broken and weak, you would not like me, you would reject me, and come to find out the opposite was true.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: If we don't invest and advocate for the health of our staff, we're missing it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's such an opportunity to change the world, a wider spread healing if our people can get well in ministry.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because otherwise they're we're reproducing unhealth.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_05: Integrity is when everything's aligned.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_05: So when you do get up there and are honest in every sense of the word, there's an integrity and a power there that God's gonna honor.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: Are we producing Christians whose spirits are regenerated, John chapter 3, but don't have renewed souls?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: What would happen if we if we slow down and we start producing deeply changed Christians?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: The broken parts of the soul.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: If we can heal that and break down shame and allow people to enter into that, I think that there's rejoicing in heaven over that.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's the heart of Jesus.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: That is the gospel.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_07: This is part two of our conversation with Pastor Chip Henderson and his wife Christy.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_07: In the last episode, you heard their story of leading a large church and how everything could have come crashing down if they hadn't been awakened to the need for health in every area, especially their mental health.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_07: Today you'll hear how that awakening is reshaping the way they do ministry, how they relate to their staff, and how they are intentionally staying healthy themselves.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_07: Next week we'll release a mini-episode where Chip Judd joins the Henderson to discuss fake vulnerability among church leaders and the potential damage it can cause.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_07: Thanks for listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_07: Here are the pastors Chip and Christy Henderson, along with Pastor Chip Judd and Pastor Joey Svenson.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_05: Hey everybody, here we are in the Mental Health and Mission of the Church podcast.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_05: And uh hope you caught the episode we did right before this one with uh Chip and Christy Henderson from uh Jackson, Mississippi.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_05: They pastor a church called Pine Lake Church.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_05: And uh just a little O country church, no I'm kidding.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_05: It's a it's a really significant and large church, and I only say that to put in context who they are and the kind of life they're living and the responsibilities they carry.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_05: This is gonna be good today.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh on the previous podcast, we talked about their story and their journey with the mental health implications and undercurrents and how they've walked through it.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_05: Today we're gonna talk about how it's affected their leadership of their church, how it's affected the way they think about uh their job, their calling, their purpose, and how to implement that in the context of a world for full of hurting people.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_05: And I hope we all realize a church full of hurting people.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_05: Let's get into it, man.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about the conversation that we had last week, and what really struck a chord with me is how, and and I shared that I've had similar struggles as what Christy described last week, and the anxiety, depression, and that category of struggle is often looked at as more of a brokenness than what uh people who don't struggle with.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_06: And what just struck me as is, and I think I shared a little bit of this last week, Chip, how you discovered you had your stuff too.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_06: You know, it's it's so easy for people to look at folks with depression and anxiety and say, Oh wow, that's you struggle with that.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_06: And y'all did not start to get on a journey of health together until you recognize you may not struggle with depression and anxiety, but you've got your own stuff, just like everybody in on the face of the earth.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no doubt.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and it looked different, you know.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: My struggles looked different, uh, manifest different, but it still came from a place where wounded as a child, you know, a product of my my family of origin, which, you know, again had tremendous blessing.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a pastor's kid, tremendous blessing.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: My mom and dad loved Jesus, they really did, and tremendous brokenness.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: Both came from alcoholic family trees, different sides of the track of life.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: One lived in Mayberry, um, never, never wanted for, you know, wondered if she was gonna have a bed to sleep in, you know, food on the table, stuff like that.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: But a disengaged father who never really expressed love or or any kind of emotional connection with her mom.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: My dad, you know, is um, he literally lived out of a camper with his family, um, uh physically and and mentally, emotionally abused growing up.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so they come together and you know, look, they're uh they're a hot mess and don't know it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I grew up thinking, man, my life's normal.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: But you look back on that and I'm able to name, I'm not blaming my parents.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: So please hear me.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: My mom and dad are awesome.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: My mom, God bless, you know, rest her soul.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: She's in heaven today.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: My dad's still alive.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: He is a great man, and I can name that they were flawed, and and that impacted me.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so I grew up with an emotional deficit.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up not really knowing how to name my emotion.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up needy with legitimate God-given needs, but not having a clue how to get them met legitimately.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do you do?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: You go find a way to get them met illegitimately.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so just a whole lot of things that, you know, I could look back now and see where I grew up with a scarcity mentality.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up looking for affirmation in all the wrong places, not really knowing how to name or process my emotions.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: You just stuff them and keep going.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: Act like you're not bothered.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: You just keep moving.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I I am a dismissive avoidant in terms of my attachment style.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Come to find out, which just means when stuff gets crazy, I want you to leave me alone.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'll go figure myself out, calm myself down, and then I can come re-engage.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so whenever I start looking at the rest of my life, and then you lay it aside beside Christy's life.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Man, we were a recipe for tremendous blessing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm an Enneagram eight, she's an Enneagram four.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: When things are awesome, it is lights out fire, amazing between us.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: But whenever things are off the rails, things are off the rails between us.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what we, you know, began to discover about ourselves and then say, okay, how do I fix me?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Chip, what you said yesterday was a beautiful statement.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: The breakthrough I long for is actually inside of me.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we learned, Joey, is as I quit seeing her as the identified patient and begin to see me as a leader, I can, with self-awareness, say, I understand I have some gifts.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I also have some broken places in me that if not brought into discipleship and sanctification by the Spirit, we're gonna continue to not only cause dysfunction here, but dude, it was it was really dysfunctional in our church, in the way I was leading, and quite honestly, not showing up, not leading, not able to engage or tell the truth or be present or real, all those ways.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, that that's all up in there.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_06: Chip Judd, I I'm curious what you would say to this.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_06: When we reflect on their stories, I think we'd all agree both of them have to do with mental health.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_06: However, the culture would call what Christy shared mental illness.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_06: Would you say both of them had a form of mental illness, or or would the technical term of depression and anxiety be mental illness and different category for what Pastor Chip shared?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_06: Does that question make sense?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_05: I don't like the term mental illness, period.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it you know, like you're in the hospital, obviously there's a mental illness issue.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like we did a we did a a mental health conference, what, 10 years ago, Joey?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_05: And we partnered with AACC and whatever.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: I could say lots of things, but it was good.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_05: We had great attendance, 900,000 people.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_06: 900,000 people?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_05: 900 or a thousand.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_06: We had uh almost a million people.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_06: People were outside.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_05: That's right, that's right.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: But uh but here's the observation about halfway through the conference, I realized this isn't a mental health conference, it's a mental illness conference.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_05: Because all we talked about was mental illness.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_05: We talked about this one and that one and this one and that one.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_05: And and so that's why I kind of shy away from that phrase.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, um, I I prefer to say mental health issues.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_06: Gotcha.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_05: Why?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: Because it covers all of it.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_05: You know, am I afraid to say something's a mental health uh mental illness?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_05: No, but I just don't find it useful or helpful.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_05: What I do find useful and helpful is learning, and again, everybody else need to learn this, but the people that are trying to help others need to need to learn how to find the line when you say to yourself and then work it into the working with the person.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_05: I think this has a physiological, physiological, not just psychological.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_05: And and then, like, like here's the way I would say it if it's a physiological problem, talk therapy won't fix it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_06: By itself.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_05: By itself.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_05: Well, talk therapy won't fix it, period.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_05: Because, like with you, Joey, you you you had multi-generational depression and anxiety issues, which means your brain, your brain had a problem.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_05: The part of your body that manifests thought, feeling, planning was damaged in some way or incapable of doing the job that God created to do.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I can talk to you till I'm blue in the face, I can be the best counselor on earth.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_05: It's not gonna fix your brain.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_05: So that's where I would put mental illness.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_05: Mental illness, I'm comfortable with somebody saying I have a physiological issue with depression.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_05: Because what you're telling me is my brain doesn't produce the right amount of chemicals or you know, sustain the right balance of chemicals.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm probably gonna need medicinal uh help forever.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_05: If you if you do the therapy side well enough, your your your brain may may rewire itself sufficiently.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_05: But so I don't I don't like the mental health term, I mean mental illness term.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_06: Are you suggesting that I get off my medication chip?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, dude, if you do, I'm done with you.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I all right, Kip and Chrissy, listen.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_05: If you do, Joey, I mean it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_05: I am done with you.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_05: He did it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_05: He that's what happened when he went into the hospital.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_05: He had gotten off his medicine, didn't tell anyone.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_05: When I found that out, Joey, I promise you, it took everything in me to not show how mad I was at you.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_05: I was so mad at you.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can say the the terminology of mental illness, there's such a stigma still around that.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: You say mental health, everybody wants to talk about that.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_06: That's so true.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't talk about mental illness, everybody's mind goes to oh man.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_06: Cuckoo.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Cuckoo.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_06: You know, Chip and Christy, y'all shared last week that you you articulated something along the lines of not wanting to launch any new campuses, I think, because you don't want to multiply dysfunction.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm curious, obviously, you're always gonna have challenges in in the sorts of things that you shared.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, it's just a journey.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_06: You're not ever gonna be done with, at least I don't think so, just completely done with you know some weaknesses.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_06: How how do you guys know when you're ready to not multiply dysfunction?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_06: Like in y'all's minds, what are you processing as far as yeah, I think it's time?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it was easy to say to look back, Joey, and see where we were not ready.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll start there and I'll say, because our staff had gotten to such a place of unhealth.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Again, in those areas where we would say they're gauges of high control, low empowerment, high fear, low love, pace is unsustainable, people uh processes over people.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Those are gauges, but those are not the cause.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: The cause was the brokenness in me as a leader, um, and then in our what we called back then the executive leadership team that functioned that way.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: So the the gauges were not the dials, what we called them, those weren't the problems.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Those are indicators.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's problems inside of us.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so whenever we blow that up, and what I mean by blow that up is there had to be transition.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we were perfectly um suited for the result we were getting.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: But if you want a different result, then everything's got to change.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so we go from if in sports terminology, we went from running, you know, the wishbone offense, which you you you need certain personnel for that, to running the spread offense, which you need exact opposite personnel for.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: So flip that analogy.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Either way, it doesn't matter.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: The point is we were perfectly suited for what we were doing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it was very painful and uh difficult over time to see that there had to be, if people weren't willing to make the inner transformation, then there was no way they were gonna stay with us in this journey.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the anchor of that was we were set.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: There was no turning back on that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so it just was a time of a lot of chaos, particularly at the highest levels of our church leadership, where people were asking for answers that I could not give.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: They were asking for clarity that I could not give.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Again, in a high control, low empowerment environment, everybody in the organization underneath me and those immediately next to me, they were waiting on orders.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: And they would go carry out those orders, sometimes in spite of what they felt inside, and in spite of what it was gonna do to the people they were gonna carry out the orders on.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so, whenever you take away that control and me just telling you, Joey, go do this.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Don't ask a question and don't screw it up.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: When you take away that, now people are looking at you going, hey, what do we do?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I don't know.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what to tell you to do.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: But we're changing the way we're gonna live and lead now.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so for you know, uh 12 to 18 months, I really couldn't even tell you what that looked like.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I just knew it it needed a lot of repentance, a lot of awareness, where were people willing to look at themselves and say, Okay, I'm broken?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was just, it was just a a mess.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_05: So either or both of you, like where where did it show up?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_05: Did it show up in your preaching?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_05: Did it show up in the way you ran meetings?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_05: Did it show up in how many meetings you had?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_05: Did it show up in uh literature, staff structure orientation, whatever you call it?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_06: The dysfunction or the healing?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_05: The healing, really.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_05: What I mean is like, other than you getting up and saying to your staff, blah, blah, blah, this has changed and it's gonna be different.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_05: Where did it where did it show up?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_05: How do how did it affect your your day-to-day, week-to-week operations?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: So uh immediately, Chip, I would say, and then I'll come to Christy because she'll she'll probably have some stuff to add in here too.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: But immediately my preaching changed.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't realize my preaching was gonna change, but my preaching changed, and Christy was telling me, hey, you are the message.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: The more you share your vulnerability, the more with vulnerability, the more the church is gonna respond, which was totally opposite of what my whole life had been about.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: I thought if you knew I was broken and weak, you would not like me, you would reject me, and come to find out the opposite was true.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: So my preaching changed.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, I would say I started going to meetings before I was, uh I had not delegated, I had abdicated leadership.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it was great for me because I lived a great life, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't bothered, but everybody else was going through hell.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so the broken part of me either sometimes didn't want to see it or didn't care enough to do much about it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what had to change in me.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so I went from one direct report to seven direct reports.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm in every meeting, I'm going to every campus because I realized I did not know what was going on with my staff, with our staff.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had to engage for a long period of time and still have made changes that exist today, where I'm far more involved to keep my finger on the pulse of what's happening than I had gotten.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then thirdly, I would say organizationally, the structure had to change per our elders' demand.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: We created what was called back then a lane in our organization.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: We called it the people team, where outside the normal organizational structure, people on our staff had a safe place to go to be seen, to feel safe, and to feel like they could be supported.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: If they were going to raise their hand and say, hey man, I don't think I'm being treated fairly, or I'm really struggling in some area.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it was outside the organ, outside the normal flow of the organization, to where nobody could get repercussions necessarily if they said something negative.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Now, in now that we're five years into this journey, we're kind of we're now saying we're in a place where we can actually bring that with better understanding into the organization as a part of our discipleship.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because really, emotional health and a mental health part is part of the spirit sanctifying you, body, soul, and spirit.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's all a part of the sanctification discipleship process.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: So this is really where Christy entered into our staff.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: She had she had been really not only outside of staff, but excluded from staff in our old culture.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: And in the new movement, she was the tip of the spear, knew more about the journey than any of us.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so she was invited in.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you guys, it would be valuable for y'all to kind of hear some of that journey.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: She joined the staff part-time as an emotional health advocate.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, you want to talk about that a little bit and your role and what that meant?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, first of all, I did, I want to go back to what you said about his preaching changing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it did.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I remember having those conversations with Chip about vulnerability and the power that it has.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because I saw and felt, you know, as sitting out in the congregation, the image that he had was of he's got all of his stuff together, there's no problems, and really just that facade, the protective facade that he had and the shame that people carry when they come in, they hear a preacher preaching the amazing sermons who have the appearance of nothing is wrong, you know, that he doesn't have any struggles.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so I told him, I was like, babe, when you decide to break down that wall and you share your own brokenness, the shame factor, you know, across the board in your congregation is going to drastically drop.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And the people will know, like they're not the only ones broken.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: They will not walk out of the room thinking, oh my gosh, I'm the broken one.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like on a spiritual, like a deep spiritual level, um, the enemy, there'll be a broken stronghold as far as the enemy goes, because that's that's where he is most present is in our souls with shame.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I felt like that that I kind of beat that drum for a while.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I did start seeing that transition, you know, as far as his approach of sharing his life and um the change that I mean, people by the droves would be like, Thank you so much for sharing your story.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the story that he didn't think anybody wanted to hear was actually um the very thing that that God, you know, wanted to use to break down the shame.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_06: So were there some people that seriously asked in a way of what happened?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_06: There's there's a very noticeable difference in how you're presenting yourself.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: And they they might not know how to ask it exactly, but they would say, Hey, something's changed.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, hey, man, you're preaching at a different level, things like that, which again, I don't really know how to answer that.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, and I think that level wasn't like, oh, you're smarter, there's more expertise on biblical whatever.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: It was a different level of honesty.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um and I would say spiritual power.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Again, uh not to go down that road, but I'm just saying there was something that this Holy Spirit started to do in our midst when there was honesty on the table and giving people hope that man, you can have crap, you can be beautifully blessed and broken at the same time, and you don't have to you don't have to pretend to be one and ignore the other.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's actually blessing when you begin to own your brokenness and let God heal it.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's more blessing.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_05: You know, a word for that chip is is one we throw around all the time, but it's integrity.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_05: Integrity is is is an agreement among parts.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_05: Uh integrity is when everything's aligned.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: So When you do get up there and are honest in every sense of the word, there's an integrity and a power there that God's going to honor.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_05: And another thought is this you know, I I I probably said it in our last episode.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you teach what you know, you reproduce what you are.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: Jesus said when a pupil's fully trained, he'll be like his teacher.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: It didn't, he didn't say when a pupil's fully trained, he'll know what his teacher knows.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: He said he'll be like his teacher.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_05: So you think about this, you got pastors on the pulpit that are pretending they're good.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_05: Well, guess what we get?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_05: A congregation full of people that are pretending they're good.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: And when you change that, when you start being real and vulnerable, you talk about the Holy Spirit's power showing up.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_05: What I said earlier, what do you got to bring?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_05: Two things, hunger and truthfulness.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_05: Well, when you start being hungry and truthful, guess what?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_05: It breaks out in your congregation, and there's nowhere better for the Holy Ghost to operate than in a place where they're hungry and truthful.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, dude, it's gonna be like popcorn, man.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_06: Like, yeah, well, how about this?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_06: Therefore, like this is what came to mind, Chip, when you shared that there was more power in your preaching.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_06: Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: No doubt.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say, you know, while there was and has been some excitement in the congregation, and we've seen it, man.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think people that were wounded and hurt in years previous started honestly slowly trickling back um to church as I was able to own, hey man, I have really been a sucky leader.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've got my own struggles, things like that.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so we've seen that, you know, but I would say that the response and receptiveness of the staff, our staff as a whole, was a little slower.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was probably uh a little bit faster at some of the lower levels, if I can say it that way, of our organizational structure.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, those people who've been wounded by my failed leadership, um, and who could who were willing to raise their hand and say, hey man, thank God I I was hurt.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: Man, we could we were able to step in and Christy and and what was the people team, now the care and recovery team, we're able to really help them.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: But the further up the organizational structure you went, um, the less people were early adapters of change.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that was that was uh that was our reality.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so now uh we're five years in.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to believe it's been five years, but this year is five years in.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like we have now come to a place.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: So your question initially, Joey, was how do you know whenever you're ready to start multiplying?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's when at the highest levels of leadership, so at the elder level, at the senior leadership level, the campus pastors lead team, whenever they're beginning to model this health, not perfection, that's not it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: But whenever we're beginning to live that model that, demonstrate that as a part of discipleship.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now that's something worth multiplying.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, and so that's what I'm saying.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying we're gonna start launching campuses tomorrow.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying we're finally in a place where I think we're finding this new reality for us.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: We're not trying to build a brand, we're trying to be a church in the best sense of that term and in the worst sense of the build-a-brand term.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't mean that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's a shadow mission.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't, I didn't start off to build a brand.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: We just kind of drifted there out of our brokenness.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: But there had to be a correction, and I thank God for his grace to to let that happen in us first, and then with our church leadership.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: I thank God for that.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: But now that we're down this road, we want to learn what that looks like to disciple us to Jesus, not to culture, not to what people want, not to what my family grew me up to be, not to my denomination, but to Jesus.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_05: I was thinking, Chip, when you were talking, I was thinking something, and I was getting ready to ask you a question, and you already went there.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_05: I would have bet money that the people that had the hardest time dealing with the changes were your ambitious leaders at the at the higher levels, like guys who were on a pastor track in their head or hard, or maybe really, because they read the same books you did.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_05: They went to the same seminars, they went to the same conferences, they drank the same Kool-Aid.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_05: In other words, they were playing the game by the rules everybody out there's playing by.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: And you were changing the game.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_05: You were changing the rules, you were changing the metrics, how we measure success.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_05: So I would have bet money that the people that had the hardest time dealing with the changes were the ones that were trying to learn how to do what you did.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_05: I want to learn how you built this church, man.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: And then all of a sudden you started talking about all this soft, like whatever, and they're like, whoa, dude, I want to, I want to learn how to shuck the corn and get this done.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no doubt.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I and so I'd say two things about it.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: One on the practical side, um, yes, you know, the the the stereotype then became, I mean, what are we gonna do?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Are we just gonna sit around coffee shops and drink tea all day and you know, sing kumbaya?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because they didn't understand, hey, to unplug and to slow down and to have slowed down spirituality to lead out of our marriage, to lead out of a rhythm of rest, foreign language.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: They they didn't sign up for that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Man, they're therefore pedal to the metal, man.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: More people, more, more, more.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so, from a practical standpoint, you're right.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: And quite honestly, chip the pendulum swung in some ways too far back that way, to where for a season of time we were hesitant to even confront anybody about anything.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so in this five-year period, we've kind of come back to that middle ground where we want to have holy ambition and see God do amazing things, but from a place of health and where he's leading, not us.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: From a theological standpoint, I would say reading Mark 15 today, it was the religious leadership who was in control of, they were gatekeepers of who got through and what we did.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: They were the ones who inadvertently shut Jesus out.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's crazy to think about, but I'm just saying that's possible in church.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: That if you are the person in power, in control, you're the gatekeeper, inadvertently thinking you're doing good, it's possible to shut Jesus out.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that is a uh honest to say, God can still bless, he can still do amazing things, and you can be shutting God out at the same time, not knowing it, because things on the outside are up and to the right.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: More people, more money, more budgets, more campuses.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: So y'all get that.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_06: Christy, more about your role, infiltrating the staff.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, was just kind of uh never expected, but knowing that the Lord was would use my journey um for a greater good.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: He loved me enough to heal me for myself.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I knew in my heart that that it was for others too.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: The testimony will change other people by the power of the Holy Spirit.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew that was happening, just had no idea how that that would go down.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I sat with people one-on-one a lot.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people would come, sit on my front porch, had conversation, would be able to share, you know, my life, my journey with them, and saw lots of hope rise up in individual people.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, just having journeyed through all of this, observing, you know, everything that was going on at the church, just had a broken heart for our staff for a long time.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think God began to shift my attention once this movement started in me, in us, to if we don't invest and advocate for the health of our staff, we're missing it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's such an opportunity to change the world, you know, um, a wider spread healing that can happen if our people can get well in ministry.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because otherwise they're we're reproducing, you know, unhealth.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Even when I went out to California and got my uh help, uh, the first therapy part, one of the ladies out there said, you know, y'all are doing, she wasn't a church person.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: She wasn't even a Christian, but she said, listening to your story and the environment that you're in and the calling that you have.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Ministers are like doing trauma work with people when they haven't even done their own trauma work.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like that that's impossible to be like truly effective in helping heal people if they have not been healed.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that has always stuck with me.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like that was one thing that I brought back from that initial intensive time of healing was our people are dying on the vine, and they're trying to help other people live.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it just wasn't, I mean, it hasn't been working and long term.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: If we don't do something to advocate for them to speak up, to make this um, you know, a possibility, or like at least put it in front of them, then um we'd be missing it.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that was, you know, that's a long way around to the place where I found myself sitting on the my porch again with some of our leadership.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And they, I think they noticed the change that I had experienced and the healing that I had experienced, and for the first time had started recognizing really me and the way God wired me as a a positive, honestly.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they didn't see me, um, they saw me differently, I guess, because I was invited to come in and and have a part of that movement of like you, you see people, you know, you've been seen and now you know you see people.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so would you come in and help create that space that people can come to, sit with you and say, this is where I'm hurting, and ask the questions, like the soul level questions for people who are potential potential hires, like think questions that had not been asked, like what are your dreams?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, tell me about you know your family, like what is God, you know, speaking to you about, you know, just all of these things that are a deeper soul level um conversation and um to get to know and to see people better, um, even before they enter into our uh context of ministry.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of the invitation in.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And like I said, I wasn't looking for any kind of job or anything like that, but I do feel like it gave God had prepared me for this in the hardest way, um, to be able to identify with people on staff in church, um, in ministry.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so this was kind of my opportunity to step in.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I I said, I've, you know, my yes was on the table before you guys ever sat down with me for whatever that looks like.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know what I was signing on for, and it has been, it has been quite the fight, you know, through the last five years.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I know that where I'm sitting right now, it's been worth that fight because of the progress that we we really have seen and the awareness that has come um to so many souls uh on our staff.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's a blessing.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is truly an honor to be able to use what the enemy went meant for evil.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, God is God is redeeming all of that.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so I identify with that passage for sure.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_05: So talk about the fight for a minute.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_05: What do you mean by that?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_05: It was a fight.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's a lot like Chip said, you know, whenever you're advocating for something that is foreign to so.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_05: What would be some examples?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what are some examples of what you were uh specific things where you were getting pushback?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: I can give you one and you can think of some others.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Whenever Christy would say to people, hey, at the lead team level, at the at the at the highest level, hey, uh, are you guys engaging your story or can we talk about emotion?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is man, it's like you're talking a foreign language.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so the skepticism of the highest levels for a long time was just a fight.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: And for us to say, hey, we're gonna see people and try to love them where they are, for some, not all, but for some was seen as adversarial.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, you're keeping me from making progress.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, you're keeping us from getting work done.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, you're inviting this person to take a time out, and I'm saying I got X number of you know, people coming on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, whatever that day is, and I I need them to be here grinding.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that was a fight.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: All of that, all of that is is so true.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, just to have one of the things I'm trying, like my mind, I just want to go the right direction here.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever we were able to engage someone who was really, really ready to to do their work, there was some resistance from their leadership and I would say insecurity in their leadership.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because if they felt like the person that was under their leadership was struggling or coming to us or having any kind of um hardship because of the way they have been led, it was not easy for the person in leadership to receive.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_05: They kind of took it personally, like my leadership was flawed, and that's what's going on.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that, and that, yeah, so it showed up as defensiveness, but I know it's insecurity.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they don't it like I can't believe you're talking to my person and they're not coming to me first.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: If they've got a problem with me, they need to come to me, they don't need to go to you.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what are y'all, you know, what are they telling you?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: So there we need to be part of their restoration, and they're not even ready to, they don't even know what restoration looks like.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that's been one of the um hardest, and then the whole confidentiality piece of like, I take that to heart.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I want there to be a if you're gonna call it a safe place, it has to be a safe space.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: But leadership did not necessarily like that or agree with that because I think it was scary for a lot of people, and I'm not mad at those people who who were insecure in that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: I there's a reason for that.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: And to it was the fight.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was part of the fight that that was pretty not always like overtly like the issue, but there was an undercurrent of that that I feel like that was part of that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_05: You know, like any broad statement, there's obviously exceptions to what I'm about to say.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: But I think it's fairly legitimate to say the people that resist the most need it the most.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_05: No, sometimes you know, there could be exceptions, but I would say the person who resists the most needs it the most.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_05: No, that's a tough pill for them to swallow.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think shame keeps them shut up like that, and like to to resist, like to push back.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's not, I don't think that's just a school of thought.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's shame, you know, that's speaking.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I would say, Chip, it, you know, we made so many mistakes, if I can say it that way.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: We just didn't know what we were doing.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was just, we would the word we we would use is wonky.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, did we do we have processes for this?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Do we not have processes?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: Are we following the process?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Are we not following the process?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was just wonky starting off, and it was very, very difficult.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing that I would say to your listener is if if you sense that God's stirring that in you, you have to be willing to go first.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then you have to believe this is really what God has called you to do, because otherwise you're gonna turn back.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's just easier to go the other way.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: But when you when you advocate, when you fight for over time, I think the the reward is worth the pain.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think now at this point, we're starting to see at the highest levels and at every level more and more acceptance because they realize nobody's against anybody, nobody's in trouble, nobody's judging you.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: We're all saying, can we be honest about ourselves and help one another get better?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: And there's grace for people.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: We've got three or four people on our staff right now that are in restoration plans, not because they cheated on their wife, but because they realize, man, my there's an in uh a lack of integrity between my front stage and backstage life.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a there's a sense in which we all, you know, to borrow another sports analogy, and there's a sense in which all of us are playing hurt a little bit, right?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: I got something I'm working on, but I'm playing through.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: But in the NFL, they don't like to put players on injured reserve.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: That is an official, that's an official declaration where that player is no longer available to player practice.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: They're off the roster.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're only going to work on their own health until such time as they are reinstated.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a the set amount of time, four weeks or whatever it is.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then they can either come back on or they can stay on IR.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Teams hate to put a player on IR because it limits them.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: Players hate to be on it.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, in the church world, we're putting staff members on injured reserve.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: We're pulling them out of their position of leadership for a season to just work on their health, their marriage, their integrity, so that when they prove that they're ready, they can go back in the game and lead differently.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that has been difficult.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: But as more and more of our staff are going through that kind of process and re-entering in a different place, I think our whole staff begins to go, wow, that's that's our new normal.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody's gonna get thrown off the bus, nobody's getting fired.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: We're not dismissing them and acting like it was God's will.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because that was the old MO.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: You raise your hand and say, hey, man, I'm struggling, you're out.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: We got to get, we got to get another player in there who's gonna produce.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's an again, that's an overstatement, Chip.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's not 100% true, but it was kind of the the feel.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: So um, I would say it's been a journey that we've been on, but if you're gonna go down this road, it's a tremendous investment financially.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's a tremendous investment just in people's personal well-being and health.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: I tell, I tell our staff all the time: the best thing you bring to this team is a healthy you.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's not your skill set, it's not your charisma, it is a healthy you.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the investment that we've begun to make, not only in the staff we have, but this afternoon, Christy and I have an interview with a guy who's applied for a facilities position to oversee facilities at one of our campuses.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: But we're meeting with he and his wife to just see who are you, where are you?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: And when, if and when you come on this team, what does your supervisor need to know about you to help you win, to shepherd you well?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where I'm saying that's the shift.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: In in in years past, I would have only cared, can you do the job?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: I would not have really been concerned about who are you as a person and how are you doing.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I picked up a phrase years ago.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_05: Can't remember, it's an author you would know, I'm quite sure.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_05: But he said this the way you define a problem shapes your solution.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_05: The way you define a problem shapes your solution.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_05: Then he said, your solution to the problem you've defined shapes the gospel you preach.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_05: And the gospel you preach shapes the church that you build.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I pondered that thing for a long time.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_05: What I found is what we're talking about and the problem you're correcting is because, in my opinion, the churches define the problem poorly, and therefore they've come up with a weak solution, and then they preach the gospel that supports that solution, and et cetera, et cetera.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_05: Here's to me the problem.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_05: What problem are we called to fix?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_05: It's Genesis 3.10.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: And and Christy, you both of you, but Christy, you in particular, have referred to it often.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_05: Genesis 3.10 is where God comes to uh Adam and Eve after the fall, like immediately after the fall, and basically, you know, they're hiding, and he says, uh, you know, where are you?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_05: And their answer.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_05: Genesis 3.10, in my opinion, is one of the most important verses in the whole Bible.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_05: I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_05: What is that?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_05: Fear, shame, and isolation.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_05: Fear, shame, and hiding.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_05: And what Jesus came to do, that's Genesis 3.10.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_05: Ten verses earlier, you guys made reference to it uh in the last episode.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_05: Uh ten verses earlier, Genesis 2.25, they were both naked and felt what?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_05: Zero.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_05: I believe the job, the purpose of the gospel, the problem the gospel solves, is moving us from Genesis 3.10 back to 2.25.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_05: In other words, God intends for us to build a culture that is shame-free.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_05: Now, not flawless people, but shame-free, flawed people.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_05: And if you think that way, you start like you're doing, you're doing it.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_05: You you start looking at everything you're doing differently.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_05: Because like performance-driven cultures, you might as well put a you might as well put a sign on the front of your church, shame-filled environment.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_05: Because when you have a performance-driven culture, you're gonna have a shame-filled environment.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: Because nobody can live up to the expectations.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_05: Nobody, nobody.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's why this stuff excites me so much.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_05: Man, I get so fired up because the world seen the church motivated by fear for 2,000 years.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_05: What would it look like motivated by love?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_05: Shame-free, shameless cultures, pockets, outposts of love.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_05: The absence of fear, shame, and isolation.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_05: Jesus help us.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go, preach it.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: Come on.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Come out.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_06: Even pastors who and ministry workers at y'all's church who have worked through the trauma, is there a conversation happening with your staff members as far as when pastoral counseling reaches its limitations and there's a professional in need?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_06: And and if so, is do y'all have a game plan as far as professional therapists that you have contacts with that you refer people to?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, like when you put somebody on when you put somebody on IR.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you you can't really require somebody necessarily to go to do anything, but you can certainly give opportunity.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, in our if you were looking kind of in the continuum or, you know, whatever, if a person's, hey, hey, I need help, maybe what they really need is just to talk to a friend.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe what they need is a group or maybe even a support group, maybe even a recovery group.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe what they need is to go see a counselor.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe what they need is more than that, maybe what they need is some intensive outpatient type stuff, or maybe they need intensive inpatient type stuff.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you just look at that progression, part of what Christie's team does is when a person comes, they sit with them and hear them.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: And in our context right now, we're not doing counseling.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: What we're doing is we're being friends.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: We're just we're hearing people, receiving people as a bel as another believer who can be an empathetic witness and then say, hey, here's some opportunities that maybe you would consider.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so they are discerning what their next step might be.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: When a team player, when a when a staff member is at a place where their wife says to them, I want a divorce, because your front stage and backstage life don't match up.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, that's different.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: Now, now we can say to them, okay, look, here's the deal.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: We're not throwing you out.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: We want to give you help if you want it, but here's what help could look like.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then they have to opt in or opt out.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so our commitment is as long as a staff member is willing to work, we're willing to work with them.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: But if they say, I'm not doing that, then that's okay.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: You can't be, you're you're gonna have to go do that without the church staff position.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that sounds kind of harsh, but I'm just saying, we'll walk with you.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so we walked with with guys and are walking through with guys and girls through a lot of different places of breakdown, could be just simple uh immaturity, not willing to accept responsibility, or not seeing your spouse, not being present with your spouse, just a lot of different brokenness all the way to addiction.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: If they're willing to say, help me, chip your word.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, I want to be helped and I'm willing to be honest in the journey.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: We have walked with and are walking with staff members to help them.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: We want to be a place to help the hurting.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: To this point, people typically opt out before we get to that place of saying, Hey, you need to, we got to pull you aside here.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: They typically opt out in one way or the other.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_06: Like opt out of their position and leave the process.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying, yes, they they would resign or be terminated because of um just the the interaction and response.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_05: So are you saying uh just to just to put a arbitrary number to it, are you saying that more than 51% opt out?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm not saying that.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying that's actually been rare.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying it's actually more, it's been our experience that more guys and girls have actually come to the table to Christie's team or to their supervisor to say, hey, we're struggling, and they're expecting to get fired.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we say to them, Do you want to get well?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: And if they say, Yes, I want to get well, are you willing to do the work?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I want to do the work.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, are you open to us suggesting some things that might be helpful?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I am.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm willing to submit to a restoration process that we have written out.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: We'll work with that.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: And and I'm saying to you, more people have done that.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: I can only think of one specifically, maybe two in five years where where I know they were either dismissed or of their own volition said, I'm out.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_05: Do you have some counselors in the area that you've built relationships with?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we do.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we got a great guy that's on my team that um he's actually in a professional counselor and therapist.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh he has a private practice on the side, but he also has lots and lots of folks that he's um connected to, got a great network of like locally, but also you know, regionally.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's part of his job description chip is to develop and maintain a network of resources for us, both locally and nationally, at all those levels.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: So if it's a therapist for counseling or if it's IOP or if it's something more than that, his job is actually to cultivate that that network and then help us to know uh where people might could find some help.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_05: I found that a lot of churches they'll they'll have a referral list, but the problem with that is they don't know anybody.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_05: They just almost like they went through the well, I used to say the yellow pages, but they went, they googled it and they just made a list of all the so-called Christian counselors in the area.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_05: Well, dude, you know, forgive me, but half of them are gonna be people you don't want to send people to.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_05: So what I what I encourage and what we did at Seacoast is we reached out to certain practices and we said, come on over, we want to have lunch with you.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_05: And and we got to know them.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_05: So we have a relationship with not a referral list.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_05: Obviously, it's a shorter list, but uh works a whole lot better.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's kind of the same with us.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: There, there are a lot of of people that can and they and they can do some things, but whenever you know people's specialty, kind of the way that they um do counseling, the types of therapies they offer, that that helps you to know to make, I think for your team, wouldn't you say make a better referral?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_06: How does accountability look differently for you, Chip?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think for a long time, Joey, I would say I was uh not only not naked and unashamed, I was hidden and you know, uh well protected.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that changed for me after I came back from my first intensive, where I had to take a deep look at myself, was I got four guys in a room and told them my whole story.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: An elder and three staff members that they know me.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what accountability looks like.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: I now I still meet with the elder every other week.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I share my life with him, my struggles with him.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm more way more open, even with not just the church on Sundays, but with our elder group.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: I give them a report every month of, hey, man, here's where I'm at.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't mean I'm I'm vomiting my uh dirty crap every month, but I'm celebrating the good things that are going.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: But if if if we're in a season of struggle, man, I'm honest with them about that.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, man, y'all pray for us.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like we're under attack or I'm struggling with this or that.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: But they're just people that know me now, uh Joey, that I did not uh have in the past.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say this woman right here, I was not known by her.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I have made progress in being known by her and being able to share with her, you know, I referred to it in last uh the last episode, I think, even just saying, hey, man, I was just struggling with being at peace with my own, you know, identity or my own lane that I need to run, or to say to her, man, I'm I feel stressed or I'm anxious, or to tell her whenever we've got some disruption on the line, hey, I'm nervous right now because I'm not sure what you want me to do, or I'm not sure how I'm gonna win.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is all stuff therapy has helped.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_03: Counselors have helped me to know how to do that after the initial couple of times I went to intensive.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: I've done three now just to continue to grow, and then some maintenance counseling along the way.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's how accountability has increased for me is just being known by her.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I would say it looks like for me.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_06: Well, Chip Judd, I just have one more question.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_06: Do you want to get into any other territory before we kind of wrap things?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I mean, that whole area that they were just talking about, uh I've gotten where I'm not real fond of the term accountability.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_05: I I would call it mask-off community, where you you you go from Genesis 310 to 225.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I agree, Chip.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_05: With a small group of people, either one of you or both, what would you say to pastor couples that maybe have begun to think, you know, I I think I need that.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_05: But let's be real, it ain't easy, man.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's not easy to find safe places to, you know, hey, I'm having trouble with pornography or whatever.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_05: Now, to be honest with you, that's on the low end of the scale.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_05: There's people wrestling with stuff bigger than that.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_05: But what would you say to somebody who kind of knew they needed it but didn't even know where to start?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know the the thought that's in my mind right now is a couple we sat with several years ago.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's a pastor of a church in California, and he said that they looked at each other one day, he and his wife, and just said, Hey, are we just gonna ask God to bless this, you know, this mess, this dysfunction that they had.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: Do you do you just ask God to bless that?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: Or do you say, you know what, there's more, and we're gonna go fight for more?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: And to that couple's credit, they fought for more.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say Christie advocated for that for a long time.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: I was more content to just, hey, let it be what it is.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine, we'll be okay.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, there's a lot of skid marks, you know, behind me coming to this place, but I'm thankful.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: But if a if a couple's there, I would say it's it is worth the fight.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: I would encourage them.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what people's leadership structure is, you know, there's all kinds of stuff.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're gonna have to have some blessing or permission from those in leadership to engage their own story honestly and authentically.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: And that may look like sabbatical time, it may look like permission to dial back, but I think you got to get permission from some to do that.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: And if they can't bless that, then I think you got to pray through, okay, then what does that look like?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully the church is gonna say yes, let's get you, let's get you the help you need.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: But let's be honest, a lot of churches aren't prepared for that.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's why what we're doing is so foreign and so hard to get our arms around sometimes because we haven't seen it modeled well.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I would just encourage you, if you're listening, it is worth the fight.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: The Lord called Abraham to follow me and trust me.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna take you to a promised, not just to him, a promised land.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: I would say if God is calling you to Genesis 2.25, he will lead you to a promised life.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it may not be easy, but it will be worth it.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: And again, that's easy for me to say here with a job and you know, so a lot of security and water under the bridge.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: But honestly, in the journey, I didn't know.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know if I was gonna keep my job.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know there were times when I wondered if the elders are gonna fire me.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you just have to keep putting that trust in the Lord to say, whatever it looks like, I'm going to be authentic.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: I need help to be authentic.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: We need help to be authentic.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: And if you don't understand it, I'm sorry.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's the fight that we are in and it's worth it.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: It is worth it.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_06: Good, good stuff.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_06: That that was my last question.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_06: Thank y'all so much for the example that y'all are walking out.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's, I think, Chip, you may have referred to this at the very beginning of the conversation about the next powerful revival, spiritual revival, is around this because I think that there's been such brokenness at the soul level of people, like spiritually, head knowledge, all of that, then there's been revival around that.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: But the broken parts of the soul, if we can heal that and break down shame and allow people to enter into that, that's I think that there's rejoicing in heaven over that.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's the heart of Jesus, that is the gospel being played out because and it's the miss, it's been the missing link there to freedom.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and the missing link to effectiveness in ministry.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I I believe the best advertisement for our product is a changed life.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_05: A co-worker who used to be angry all the time and now they're smiling all the time, and you go say, Hey, what's what's the deal?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_05: And they and they share their story, and it's a story of just what you're talking about.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_05: When you start talking about this stuff with some leaders, what's hard is to help them see this is not the soft, mushy side of Christianity.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_05: This is imperative to the success of your mission.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_05: You just don't you don't get it.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_05: You're still caught up in how many and how much.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_05: Bill Hull, I don't know if you ever read his stuff, The Disciple Making Pastor.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_05: I'll never forget this years ago.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_05: He said, We we asked the wrong questions, how many and how much?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_05: He said the right question is what kind?
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_05: And the issue is not how many people we have in our church and how much money they're given.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_05: The issue is what kind, what we're a factory.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_05: Our church is a factory.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_05: What kind of product are we producing?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_05: Are we producing Christians whose spirits are regenerated, John chapter 3, but don't have renewed souls, don't have renovated souls.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_05: What would happen if we if we slow down?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_05: Slow is fast, less is more, deep is wide, all those prophetically important thoughts right now.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and we start producing deeply changed Christians.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_05: And we stop talking about, oh, Jesus is coming back any second.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_05: You know, shut up, man.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_05: That's just selfish.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_05: Is it what is he doing in you?
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_05: What's he doing to you?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_05: What's he doing through you?
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_05: Let's let's quit worrying about our escape plan, man.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, let's let's change this place by being changed.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_05: Jesus help us, man, please.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_06: Does sound kind of good sometimes, though.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_06: I'm for it.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm for it, Joey.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: Older I get, the more I do.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think you're on spot on chip.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that is that is the thing that we're we're asking ourselves is what kind of person do we want to produce?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think discipleship and seeing soul care and soul help as part of discipleship.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's where the divorce happened.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: We thought because you knew the Bible, I'm it, but that's not that's not it completely.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of it, but it's got to go from your head to your heart and let there be healing there so that I'm transformed and then to my hands.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we've gone from head to hands, but we've missed the heart.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_05: And our methodologies, our our our procedures are are built around that.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_05: We have kind of an assembly mind perspective of developing people.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_05: Well, if we put this part on here and this part on here, and this part on here, we were joking a second ago, I assume, about the Lord's return.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_05: Here's my thing, and I and I and I don't and I hope this doesn't sound heretical, but I don't want the Lord to come back soon.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_05: And here's why.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_05: If we leave now, we leave losing.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_05: I want the world to see an accurate depiction of the character and power of Jesus.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to leave, and for the rest of eternity, we can't look Jesus in the eye because we suck.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_05: I believe with all of my heart, Jesus did more at Calvary to fix us than Satan did in Genesis 3 to destroy us.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_05: I want to see that manifested.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_05: I want to see his enemies be made his footstool.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm with that.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm with that.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_05: I I'm one of these weird guys that I'm not in a hurry.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_05: We're gonna be in heaven a long time.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_05: I'm in no hurry to get there.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_05: I'm in no hurry to get there.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_05: I've just been through a stretch where I had to look that in the eye.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I am not in a hurry to leave.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_05: Not because I I I don't want to go or I'm afraid.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not afraid of dying at all.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_05: I'm afraid of us not being successful at what Jesus died to produce.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_05: And this conversation and what you guys have experienced, you're you're in a position to help lead into a richer expression.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the thing, man.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_05: Jesus talked about the gospel of the kingdom.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: Kingdom.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_05: John chapter 3.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_05: You can't see the kingdom unless you're born again.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_05: You can't enter the kingdom unless you're born again.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the problem: we're getting people born again, and they take one step across the threshold into the kingdom, and that's where they spend the rest of their life.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, dude.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_05: Let's explore the kingdom, let's embrace the kingdom, let's receive the kingdom, let's perpetuate the kingdom.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_05: Let's yeah, get you get me worked up.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_06: I love it.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_06: Thank y'all so much.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you, Joey.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's been fun, man.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_05: We got to do this again.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_03: Anytime you let us know.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I'd like to do?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_05: I'd like to spring off your last thought, really.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_05: Let's do an episode at some point, maybe take a break a little bit here.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_05: Let's do an episode about how this kind of a mindset impacts our discipleship track.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_05: How does it affect what's missing and what needs to be included?
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_05: That's not in most situations, and how we look at and for lack of a better word, program ourselves for creating inside out healthy disciples.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_05: Love it.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_05: That'd be fun.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_05: That'd be fun.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_03: Love it.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: We've got thoughts on that.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: Good deal.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_07: Thanks for listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_07: If this episode was helpful, share it with someone who might need it.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_07: And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_07: You can also follow Chip on Instagram at Chipjud and find free resources for your spiritual and mental health journey at chipjudd.com.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_07: Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time on Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_06: Oh that please.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_06: I don't need you even to explain Chip.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_06: I know it's not true.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_06: In fact, Chip, I was just gonna ask you, get it all out now.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_06: Just it's a safe environment.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's a safe environment.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_05: Joey, Joey, you're such a target-rich environment.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_05: I you know, I I I I'll get on the call sometimes and think, okay, I'm gonna behave myself, and then you just you just make it appear.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_06: I just appear.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_06: That's uh I tell people I have I have an abusive relationship with Chit because he breaks me down and then I go to him for counseling.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_06: That's pretty dysfunctional.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_06: Pretty messed up.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_05: Job security.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_05: I don't charge him though.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, come on, I don't know.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_05: There you go.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_06: So it's just your entertainment, that's even sicker.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_06: That's right.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_05: No, I'm I'm testing out techniques and theories.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_06: Ah the guinea pig.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_05: And they don't appear to be working, by the way.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_05: Good stuff.