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Magick, Tarot and More with Sabrina Scott · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What What's gonna happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: What?
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode, I got
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: a couple of the rejects with me, and we got
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: a Brandon new guest on today, and before we introduce her,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: we'll introduce the other rejects with us, and I got
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: my boy, headless giant. What is going on, sir? I
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: finally got to meet this man after about three and
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: a half years. He got stuck spending three days with
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: me in an event and I had a blast. And
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I have to even say, yo, you know, for real,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: for real, when I met the guy, it was just
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: like it wasn't even weird. It was just like it
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: was already my boy. Like it's hard to explain, like
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: there was no uncomfortability at all. I was just like, yo,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: it's fucking endless finally, you know. And we got a blast.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: But thank you, man for jumping on. I know yesterday
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: sucked to getting home soon as me. Yeah, it was horrible.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't get on about Tull thirty, but I appreciate
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: you jumping on today. Man, What is going on?
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Absolutely? I'm happy to be here, and so is Beans.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: He missed me for the last two weeks, so he's
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: not gonna let me have a moment of relaxation here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: But if you guys want to check me out, I'm
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: on Twitter and I'm on Instagram. Just look up Headless
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Giant and you'll find me there. I had an awesome
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: time this weekend. Hopefully we get a chance to talk
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: about it or something on stream. That was an incredible time.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: And uh yeah, so check me out. I've got seven
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: seven seven coming up tonight with you, so.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Oh hell yeah, I totally forgot about that. I forgot
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: it's Tuesday. Holy shit. Yeah, I keep on thinking it's Monday,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: like yeah, yeah, that's funny. Well, thanks for the reminder.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that. What he said I would have received
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: the Lincoln. I'd be like, what the fuck? Oops? Uh
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: uh yeah, go check out holy stuff. And Matt, thank
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: you so much for coming on my man. I always
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: appreciate you making it on. I know you're over in
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Italy still right, correct, Yes, that's awesome man, that's awesome
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the Atlantic.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty happy to be here. Always nice to talk
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: about the stuff that I like as well. So Tarat
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: definitely is up there. And yeah, I mean, you can
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: find me on many platforms always Matt more on nineteen
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: so that's Instagram, X, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, maybe some other pists.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: And there's also the Gray Lodge we do we host
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: weekly spaces on X that's always on Fridays, and you
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: can also find the videos there, the ones we save
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: in post to YouTube on the True Gray Lodge dot com.
• 2:42
  Speaker 5: With the v so true.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: And also my website kabala dot com that's k A
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: A b A l a h dot com. Doing some
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: late here readings before it change the stuff that I'm
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: providing there, so if you want to do that, make
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: sure to grab it quickly before it changes. But yeah,
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: pretty hapy to be here in let's have a great
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: comp all.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Right, thank you man. I really appreciate your making it
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: again as well, always like when you're here. And finally,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: the guest Sabrina Scott. She's in Tataro. She's an author,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: She's got a bunch of stuff that I'm sure we
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: can all talk about today. Very excited to get you on,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: so please Sabrina, you know, let people know like what
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: your deal is and where they can find all your
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: amazing work.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, Hello, so excited to be here and
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: to finally, like E meet all of you. I feel
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: like it's going to be a really fun little chat.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: So for anyone who doesn't know me, I guess I'm
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: a professional witch and have been for more than a decade.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: And I've been reading cards for twenty five years, been
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: into witchcraft for twenty five years. Grew up in a
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: fun thing called spiritualism that means like seances, mediumship, table tipping,
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: like transpossession, all that fun shit. Got to see that
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: before I turned ten, so definitely has influenced a lot
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: of my perspective on a lot of this kind of
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: like witchy woo woo magical occult stuff. That's a little
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: bit of a unique, fun little thing about me. Also
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: doing a PhD in a science department about trauma and
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: witchcraft and how witchcraft can be a healing thing for trauma.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: So it's a bunch of what I do. And if
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: anyone is curious to check me out on the good
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: old interwebs. Sabrina Mscott dot Com, Instagram, Sabrina M Scott.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: What else YouTube is slash Sabrina Scott because I guess
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: there's not as many Sabrina Scotts on YouTube, so I
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: was able to get it without the.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: M oh nice, it's yeah all right, yeah, and I'll
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: definitely include all your links at the bottom as well.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: So awesome, thank you.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I know, like I guess, you know, I guess,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: you know, just to jump right into it. You know,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: you have started off young. You know you were probably
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: as for what I get out of it, you were
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: brought up into it. So if you don't mind, like
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: you know, I guess as personal as as you mind
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: getting uh, could you let us know like how that
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: how that was? Normally I would ask my guests what
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: what got you into this stuff? You know, you were
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: born into it, so you know.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so we kind of yeah, unique upbringing, I
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: suppose you could say. So. My mom was super big
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: into spiritualism, so she was always into mediumship and stuff
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: like that, as was her mother. So if we count
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: down the lines, I guess technically I'm seventh generation with
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: all of that stuff. And so it was really really
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: cool to be able to grow up in an environment
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: where I could basically compare like spiritual notes like with
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: my mom to be like, all right, I'm picking up
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: on this spirit like and I would hold it in
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: my mind and really, right, Mom, what are you picking
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: up on? And then she'd be like blah da da da,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: and like kind of rattle off, and I'd be like, yes,
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: that's exactly what I'm getting. So, when we're talking about
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: like building spiritual confidence and like spiritual skill building, it
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: was really sweet to have access to that kind of
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: evidential comparing notes type of thing from a really really
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: young age. I think a lot of people struggle with
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: that or struggle with confidence in terms of spirituality and
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: like energy work skills and like is this real? Am
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: I making this up? Like I've heard that from so
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: many newer practitioners, and so is very blessed to kind
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: of be able to have someone to bounce this stuff
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: off of and just to have that kind of early confirmation.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: And so for anyone who doesn't know about spiritualism, it
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: was found in the eighteen fifties upstate New York, which
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: is actually where my mom lives. So it's like kind
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: of an interesting little thing. So she's still like involved
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: with the church, the og Spiritualist Church, and it considers
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: itself a science of religion and a philosophy, and it's
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: really big on proving the existence of life after death,
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: like the continuation of the soul be a medium ship
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: and healing and so growing up with that first and
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: foremost like it really has influenced my perspective on things
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: like taro witchcraft stuff like that and no shade like
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: a lot of taro and witchy people. But I do
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: feel like a lot of folks out there practicing would
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: not know what to do if a spirit actually showed up,
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? Like there is a
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: lot of that, at least in like the witchy space,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: maybe not so much like the cultism space, if you
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: know what I mean.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I get that. I mean I've even asked
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is a little loft, but I mean
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: it's kind of almost the same comparison. I've asked bigfoot people,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: what are you gonna do when you do finally see him?
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I'll probably fucking run.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Hey, what do people say when you ask that?
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: When you finally got them? Now, what are you going
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: to do? When people were like I have people on
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: the show, and some of them didn't even have an
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: answer right away because they're like.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, And so I guess I got
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: to kind of see the real deal of it all
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: from a really young age. So like the question of
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: like is this real or am I delusional? You know,
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: that question was never really a thing, just because I
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: did get to have so much confirmation and evidence.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's especially from a person that you trust totally.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: That was a thing that was even I mean, it
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: wasn't one of the reasons why I had left the OTO,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: but like when I started having my experiences, I realized
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I was like, yoh, there's nobody even here I could
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: talk to about this, because I tried to like kind
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: of with a few people, and I was just like,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: it's a fox point for me to be here because
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: like and then some of the just keeping a real
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: some of the other people there, I felt like if
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I was as them, they run with some like wild delusion,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm just just concox some crazy woo woo shit.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: And I just wasn't comfortable even talking to people. So
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: it kind of sucked. I was like, well, why even
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: be here now at this point?
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I don't what crazy woo would they say? Now?
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Like I don't know, probably like ah, it was like
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: some a trial. It was just I had spoken to
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: somebody I remember they were trying to tell me some
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: weird ask the travel ship, and I was like, all right,
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I could kind of grasp that, but they were like
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: getting like weird about it, and I was just like
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: or I had people telling me like certain like specific
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Oh it was a certain like deity and this and that.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like, the fuck, I don't know. It was just
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: hard to explain, it was. It was just hard toks.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, how did that come out of
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: like what I was doing. It's just like I had
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: my eyes closed, meditating in my chair and you're telling
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: me about you know, fucking ayes Modius sometimes ship.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, it's weird sometimes people's interpretations.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: The thing.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: You know, what the problem was is I was never
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: even able to get out like exactly like it was
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: before he was even done explaining myself. I was already
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: getting answers, and I was like, see, like you should.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: You haven't even listened to the whole fucking thing yet.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: That's had I think was the major problem. You know
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying. Yeah, it was just like you're already
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: throwing answers out there before I even explained this whole
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: fucking visual feeling scenario I went through No, Yeah, so
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: it just wasn't comfortable. So you're lucky you had that experience,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, truly it's a blessing. I do think a lot
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: of people there is life trying and figure that out.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well there is a gulf between the magic community
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: and the paranormal community that didn't exist all throughout history.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Because they're going to these places that are haunted and
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: they're summoning the spirits of talking to them. That's where
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: they get all their magical practices from. You know, it's
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: firsthand experience. But I think a lot of people have
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: sort of lost sight of that.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know what, that's gonna make me sound
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: kind of like a bitch, But I feel like some
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: of the paranormal community people like don't fully get what's
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: going on, like looking at it from like the witchy
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: energy mediumship perspective, like there's I'm sure you're probably what
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about, Like there's some of those big shows
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: where they're on like a little in Paranormal Adventure and
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: like looking at it like as an occultist, like as
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: a magical practitioner, as an energy worker, as a medium
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, oh man, people know what they're doing
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: and it's like low key stressful to be like what
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: are you doing? Like can I just come and teach
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: you the ways? And then this is all going to
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: go so much better and you're going to not be
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: scaring yourself over the most basic shit like can we
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: just all come hang out? Like let me show you
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: guys the ways? And it's it's interesting, Like so I
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: think you're right, Like there is that golf where like
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: some witchy people or occult people could stand to get
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: more of their hands dirty with going out there, and
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: then the the paranormal people like could stand to learn
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: a little bit more about what those of us over
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: here in a cult mediumship, witchy energy land have to say.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: Like there is there's not a lot of people who
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: are having that kind of cross cultural accomp station.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I like how you mentioned, uh right, you got to
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: go ahead? Hell's sorry, Well I was going.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: To say, you got to get them tickets to lily Dale.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: You know lily Dale. Something we still going on.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: It is, it's right there, You're just got to pay
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: the entry fee to go chill. There's still doing their thing.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I like, how you men go ahead, No, I.
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: Got Chris to understand, like, how do you practice uh
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: this spiritualism because we have it in Brazil's well probably
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: a different like uh the tape from a different origin
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: because I know from Brazil the guys came from friends.
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: So it's like the car neck and whatever.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: There's like a bunch of if you mentioned the other ones,
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: maybe probably some Anglo Saxon like if it started in
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: New York as well. But like in Brazil we have
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: the median ship, we have the tables and one. We
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: have a lot of Heaton passes what they'll say like
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: you go and take it past or whatever. But there's
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: for like outside people, there's there's also a communication sometimes
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: like you get like a letter read in order something
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: like that, Like how different just to kind of start
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: try to grasp in man.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd be curious to hear more about what the
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: situation is in Brazil to really be able to be
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: like an actually solid answer on that. But in terms
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: of technique wise, like all of what you just mentioned
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: sounds very aligned. But even within North America, like spiritualism
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: does have like specifically spiritualism does have different little factions.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: So NFB see like the National Spiritual Association of Churches,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: which is kind of what I grew up around, and
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: that would be the lily Dale version of spiritualism is
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: really a bit different than non NSAC forms of spiritualism
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: in North America, Like and there's so within the NSAC
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: there's like there's rules, there's certain you know, stuff that
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: is cool and certain stuff that is not cool. Like
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: they're really big on keeping things kind of purest like
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: no tarot, no tool know, nothing, like they just want
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: it to be pure bodywork. And other let's say, forms
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: of sputualism in North America are a little bit more
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: like las A fair some of them are a little
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: bit more Christian inflected, whereas NICC definitely is not. And
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: so there are some kind of interesting little tensions there.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: I think this. I was talking to someone about this
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: last night actually, I did another podcast interview and she's
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: out in the UK, and she was kind of saying
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: the same thing is going on out there in terms
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: of the different spiritualist factions out Yonder kind of battling
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: each other. So it seems like it all kind of
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: comes from a very common route or common series of
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: folks who are influencing the thought in the practice. But
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: I'm sure there's there's always like little political infighting in
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: terms of what's considered to be like the legit way
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: to do it, and that's always going to be kind
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: of different. But I would say that sounds like there's
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: some similarities in terms of the practices and techniques for sure.
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's interesting that you mentioned that, for example,
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: the day one, it's not necessarily religious, right, Is that right?
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: Or or maybe less influenced, because what I mean, I
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: think I understood you saying that there's like some that
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: are more religious like Christian whatever focus, and some others
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: maybe not that much.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would I would consider it religious, but
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't consider it Christian.
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's considered the.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Thing to be their own religion. They've got their little
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: principles and all of that. But I don't actually think
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: and I could be wrong on this, but last I heard,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: I don't think you're actually allowed to have property in
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: Lilldale if you accept Jesus. Like, they're very like, we're
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: doing our own thing here, like that has nothing to
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: do with Christianity, so they are very kind of protective.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: I would say about about that in that sence.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because in Brazil, like it's a very Catholic country,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: you know, for and portrayed guys and so on, so
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: then it kind of got mixed with so the card
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: next stuff was very very Christian, you know, it's like
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: they even used the Bible and whatever in Jesus and
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: so they talk about the same thing. But then it
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: got synchronized with the African stuff and the native stuff.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: So then we have like this mix and the branches
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: are from the prely Christian guys, and then the ones
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: that mix with the African stuff as well, and then
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: the ones with mixed with the natives. So then there's
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: and then there's the whole shebang. Like you said, oh
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: this is we can't do it or we cannot do it.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: We can use it, we cannot use it.
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: But it's well at the end of the day, really, people.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: And you know what, like Brazil to me seems like
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: such an interesting place spiritually because there's so many different
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: influences kind of interacting and coming together and having that conversation.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: So Brazil from what I know, and please correct me
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: if this is wrong, but it seems to be one
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: of the main places that what they call in like
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: the academic literature, like new religious movements Brazil. Like there's
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: just so many different influences and stuff going on, So
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: let's super interest thing to hear about from your perspective.
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of mix, and like even for example,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: spiritualism came there and then a guy founded another thing
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: called like a poma three I think.
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: With people in English, and then it's like a whole
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: another thing. And so yeah, it's like a new religion
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: every week. Well, Matt, if I could jump in.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: So the one the Spiritualist society I went to was
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: in Falls Church, Virginia, and I would say that they're
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: more on the Christian side because they did have hymns
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and other you know Christian sort of paraphernalia going on
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: before the service itself. But I think it served to
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: sort of you know, focus and sort of get everybody
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: in the same mindset to less so about you know,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: just the religious angle of it and more so about
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: the focus though.
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it makes sense.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've got no shade on Christians actually at all,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: Like it's just not og spiritualism.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I would say, Well, a lot of this comes from
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: the Native American influence, right, So the Native American influence
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: was a big thing in the Christian churches at that
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: time period because they had practices that they were bringing
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: into their church that the white people had never seen before,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: and they're like, why can't we do that too? And
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: so it's just sort of spread out from that sort
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: of interaction, and I think it's you know, it represents
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: something uniquely American that's now spreading across the world.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. Like as a part of my master's research,
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: I did some looking into of the like Native American
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: kind of indigenous influence with that, and there is a
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of stuff to be said about that, a
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: bunch of books as well. I could recommend, not off
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: the top of my head, but there was a lot
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: of kind of cross cultural conversation. And one thing that's
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: really neat about lily Dale is like they do invite
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: the local indigenous folks sometimes to come in and like
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: give workshops. Like that was actually a theme one year
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I can't remember it, probably like ten fifteen years ago,
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: where they did have a whole bunch of kind of
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: spiritually inflected classes taught by like the Iroquois. I think
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: this is I'm wrong, but so they do support that
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: kind of cross cultural conversation I think always have around
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: spirit contact and what does that look like and people
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: channeling let's say Indigenous spirit guides as well back in
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: the day was also a big part of the conversation
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: back in the eighteen hundreds for sure. So that's your
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: right to bring that up.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: I have even noticed, you know, we've had people come
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: on to cover like Native Americanism or just like certain
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: things that I'll cover. I'll be like, oh my god,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: this is like you know, the micmac medicine. Will you know,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: there's even like a freemasonry. There's stuff that I think
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: they've even taken from Native American symbols, you know, some
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: secret societies too, So that is interesting crossover.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: One thing I did want to bring up. It was
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: kind of something that Headless or who kind of went
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: into with the whole paranormal that is interesting with the
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: whole seance stuff, you know, that is again you know,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: going back to like you know, a lot of my opinion,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I was just gonna keep a real ghost adventures. You know,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: you got Zach Baggins is always doing this silly fucking
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: shit and every other show, it's like, oh, ritual was
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: done here, Oh sience was done here, ritual was done.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: You know, he's obviously my opinion, he's an a cultist anyway,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: but uh, he's he focuses on that shit, and he
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: does make it seem rather fucking silly and stupid at times.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: But like if you start looking back, like back in
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: the day, you know, the Council of Nine, there's even
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: stories of like could you keep it real? The guys
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: from Alcoholics Anonymous were even doing seances upstate New York.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: You know, you get people who are actually into the
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: occult and they're doing seances. You know, spiritualists who were
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: you know, or occultist who got kind of more into
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: spiritualism and started doing seances. I don't think people like
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: you're saying, like, really understand like what they're imitating when
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: they're doing these things on the paranormal shows.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, which to me seems so odd because it's
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: like all you gotta do is like do a little Google,
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: read a.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Book, you know, or are they just grifting.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: It's available and people are into that. It's just odd
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: to me that they wouldn't do that one step further
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: to be like all right, what else can I learn
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: about this to make this process go a little bit
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: more better?
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: You know, Yeah, it's funny that you talk about this.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I remember there's a guy in Brazil which got pretty
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: big on RPG books and you know, like games and one,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: and he would put actual rituals in the thing, and
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: then people would do and they would here, like you know,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: stuff in their home and like the lights flickering some
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: kind of.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: I mean, like you said, if they went at least
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: in search for it, they would know what's going on.
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: They're not just you know, doing it for random.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: So I'm actually curious to know from your practice with
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: the tear if you try to use also, for example,
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: that your experience with spiritualism, or you try to focus
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: only on the cars, like do you separate that or
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: for you there's no separation, like there's always for.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Sure, it's your question. For me, I kind of blend
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: it all and depending on the client, depending on what
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: comes through. Some people's ancestors or whatever a little bit
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: more chatty than others, and sometimes they're not there at all,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: which is always kind of interesting. But I don't sell
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: my services really with that in mind. And the reason
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: for that is, in my experience, a lot of people
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: seeking mediumship and psychics and all of that, and they
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: really want their dead uncle Bob to like come through
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: and say something like They're often coming from this kind
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: of desperation e energy that I don't find super useful,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: like who cares if dead uncle Bob still loves you?
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: Like it's fine, but is that going to help you
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: make better choices in your life right now? Like probably not,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Like it's a nice kind of platitude. Realize that might
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: sound a little bit intense, but that is kind of
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: why I don't sell what I do in that way,
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: even though behind the scenes, like energetically, often that is
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: a part of what's going on. So whenever I am
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: reading for someone like am I sticking to the cards
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: as a baseline, absolutely, But there is also that kind
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: of energy work, intuitive, medium ships, psychicy type of vibe
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: that all of that is going to my process in
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: different amounts depending on who I'm in front of.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Nice nice as a case the case basis, I guess really.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like some people's energy is easier to
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: read than others. Some people are a little bit more
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: forthcoming than others, and so there always is going to
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: be a little bit of a different vibe depending on
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: who I'm reading for.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you can get somebody who comes in it's
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: just like is like puken, you know, basically just doesn't
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: shut up and it tells you so much stuff. And
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: you can probably get some person who comes in like
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: is dealing with you. It's like a little nervous. It
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: maybe doesn't talk you.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: As much, doesn't say anything.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's totally different to technique problem, Like.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: It doesn't happen as much anymore. But in the past
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I have had some people comp and say absolutely nothing
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: just to kind of like test me out or whatever.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: And then once they could see that my ship was legit,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: then they were like they chilled out a little bit
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: and were like okay, okay, okay, and then kind of
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: opened up. So you do kind of get some of
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: those sometimes too, where they just want to give you
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: little tests and make sure that you're not full of shit,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: which is a little bit annoying, but it's okay, Like
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I always passed the test.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: So I got to ask you, what is your favorite deck?
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, writerway smith O.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: G okay, nice nice? I like.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: I love that deck. It's just a vibe, like it's
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: so good. I've got this is actually a really lovely
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: gift from somebody. So it's like a pre digital printing
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: of it. This is like actually from seventies and it's
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: such a vibe, Like the colors are just so good. Yeah,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: I love this deck. It's absolutely my favorite. Like what
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: I love about it too, is if you put it
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: in front of someone who doesn't know literally a damn
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: thing about tarrow, like they will be able to know
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: that this card sucks, you know, they will be able
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: to kind of get the vibe like no one is
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: happy to see this, whether you know about the carrow
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: or not. So I like that the imagery is so evocative.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: And my background is in illustration, so like I've done
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: magazine covers all that, I've got two graphic novels out.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: So having good art that actually communicates the message that
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: you want to have communicated for me is like the
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: most important thing. Like I really really prioritize that when
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking about what decks are the best, and like
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: can I read with you know a deck that literally
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: just had the name of the cards written on it,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: and that was it, Like sure, I could absolutely do that,
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: but as an artist myself, like, this is just this
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: is the vibe, how about y'all?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I do. I'm a fan of a couple of them.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I do like that deck and I started off at
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: the Golden Dawn deck because of uh, there's a lot
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: of associations on that card, which is another reason why
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I like the right Away deck because I think if
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: somebody like, unfortunately it is just my opinion, you can
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: pick up some Tarot decks and just like some people
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I think, will just be like, oh, it's just some
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: cool art that I'm supposed to interpret. It's like, no,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: there's actually associations with this shit to actually you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: help help, you know, give you an idea what you're
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: looking at. And you know, some decks don't have that
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: at all, and you know, I'm afraid some people lose,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: you know, the deepness to these cards. So I like
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: the ones that have a lot of the associations on
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: it to kind of like, you know, it's planetary shits,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: this and that elemental. So yeah, I do like those.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: And I will say I do like Crowley the Toe deck,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: you know, I do like that one.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's you bring up something really good. I
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: think in terms of a lot of these kind of
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: new decks not really having this symbol. And I do
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: teach Taro to like total newbies, and one of the
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: things I always tell them is, like, make sure that
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: you choose the right deck, because sometimes you could be
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: picking up on a deck that there is really no
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: symbolism with that deck. It was just made by some
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: random artists, bless their heart, who doesn't know a damn
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: thing about Taro. And the art looks sweet. But the
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: reason I think a lot of newbies who pick up
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: those type of decks are have like a struggle in
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: their process of learning Taro. It's actually not on them,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: like it's on the fact that the deck makes no sense,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: and that is something I would love like people know more,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: because like, yeah, as experts are people who know this shit,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: we can read anything. It's fine, But for a total newbie,
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: like some of these decks are not going to make
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: any sense because they're not designed by people who actually read.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: And I even think I had to pull it out.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I got the Muca Taro. I don't know if you
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: guys have ever heard of Frog's muca, but right he
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: started the art nouveau move these are inspired by his works.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: It's it's not by him, but they're they're pretty good. Uh,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: let me pull up another one here. Oh there's a
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: good one, Ace of Cops just going. But yeah, that's
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: definitely along the same lines. It's got to have some
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: artistic relevance to you so that you can really get
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: into the idea of the art and the motifs.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I'm giddy.
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: I have three decks that I use for different reasons,
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: Like the I like the mythic one with the Greek stories.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: It's pretty good for.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: Readings because I mean, most people in the West know
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: the Greek stories, so I can just say, you know hercules,
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: and then it's like, oh, okay, I know more or.
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: Less what it is.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: Like what you mentioned with the writer White one, you know,
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: you kind of just get it a little bit, even
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: if the person ever heard about it. And the imagery
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: is also super nice then for some magical work, every
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: like the one from Cahus, which is like has all
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: the kabala astrology, anything your relations and also the Ima
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: just super chemical ressle that's.
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: Also pretty nice for magic.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: It's also the one that I was initiated in when
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: learning Kamala. So it's again it's pretty clear to understand
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: and when doing with like when I do a reading
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: and there's a bunch of smaller like the minor arre
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: kind of then I really enjoyed the Egyptian one, which
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: has also pretty good explanations for the miner a kind
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: of like pretty specific numbers and correlations and imagery responsor.
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: That's also pretty pretty.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: Nice and I completely agree with you, Like if a
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: Tarot deck is not made with the intention of being,
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: you know, a terror deck, then you can call it
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: a deck.
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: Maybe not a terror deck, like I've seen those, you know,
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: like cold or whatever.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: Sure, yeah exactly, it's like oh cool, sure you can
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: call that a creator own thing.
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: But then that's not Terot. That's like absolutely, I guess.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: It was our deck then yeah, so it's not like
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: an actual practical reading deck. And like as artists, I
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: got a beef with our decks. But like, make sure
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: people know what it is, because then those the newbies
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: are gonna get get fucked.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Up, yeah exactly, or like make it explicit if it's
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: an oracle deck like that there's a system and whatever,
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: but then okay, you you have the descriptions, it's something else, right.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I've only felt like a tarot snob. One time, this
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: woman pulled out a deck that was made by what's
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: that place in the mall that's next to at Spencer's.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: It was a Spencer's gift deck that had all these
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Halloween things as the different suits. It was. It was
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: really bad, like they had the wolfmn on. There is
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: like the Emperor card and stuff.
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: It was.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: It was pretty bad.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: There is an actual Halloween tarot and I actually have
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: had a suit. It wasn't that one. Yeah, I did
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: have a student once try to learn with that first,
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: and I was like maybe not please please know.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: So if you don't mind, like what was what would
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: be like? I guess when you were like kind of
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: growing up, like when you're into this stuff, what would
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: have been like I guess your normal practices, like what
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: was your I guess magical daily life like or even
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: what is it like now too, you know whatever.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Honestly, it's it's pretty subtle these days, like I don't
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: go too crazy. But when I was younger, it was
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: a lot of spirit contact, spirit work, mediumship, whether that
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: was just spirits chilling out ancestors. There was. There were
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: like a few deities that I worked with back in
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: the day. There were nature spirits, like land spirits, a
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: dragon spirit that I was really vibing with as a kid,
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: makes sense, I guess I was. It was a lot
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: of mediumship and like animism and just connecting with place,
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: connecting with the objects around me. It was a lot
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: of stuff like that, Like I had a little all
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: so ritual candles, the whole shebang, like pretty much what
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: you're kind of thinking. But for me, the most important
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: thing for me magically has always been the spirit contact
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: piece and the energy work piece. Like I've never been
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: super big in terms of like ceremonialism or you know,
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: needing to do things in a particular exact OCD type
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: of way, Like that's never really been the way that
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: I've worked, Like I've always been a little bit more intuitive, spontaneous,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: like close to the ground, like riding the waves of
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: the vibes has always been my thing. Like for me,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: that's always felt the most magical, the strongest experiences, the
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: best results I've gotten have been when it's come from
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: a kind of immediate need rather than like, all right,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: it's five PM. It's magic time, Like let's go. And
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: no disrespect to folks who do that. I think like
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: some folks need to or some people's minds work best
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: in that kind of regimented way. But that's never really
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: been how I've felt called to practice these days. I
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: work with Santamente and also Saint Lucy and then my
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: ancestor spirits as well, and the land also to some extent.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: So it's a lot of just energy based stuff. Nice
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: this It doesn't really look like you're doing too much,
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: but you are.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: I get that. Yeah, do you get like a lot
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: into like herbs and crystals and stuff or no, I
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: don't know how much that stuff is incorporated into that stuff.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Like I can fuck with that, but like it's not
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: the biggest part of my practice. I would say, like
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: I have some little things around is like cute sea
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: little things, but I'm definitely not one of those people
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: that's got like twenty crystals. It's like, all right, what
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: crystal we use them for the magic today? Like that's
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: never really been my thing. And like, again, no shade
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: to folks you practice that way. I think it is
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: to legit and I do believe that stones have energies
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: and YadA YadA, but it's it's not a big part
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: of my practice. I would say, like, I'm very like
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: energetically focused in terms of how I work.
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: One question that came to mind.
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it works like this for you,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: but I know from some people that do work with
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: like spirits or mediumship in this case, they would get,
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: for example, not tips, but they would get like a
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: job to be done, for example, like go and get
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: the scandal on that time, on that whatever whatever, like
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: very specific from the spirit. Do you know, get this
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: other thing and mix it up and so on, So
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: you do get those tides.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah sometimes for sure. Yeah sometimes, But if I'm getting
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: those instructions, I'm following them for sure.
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: Nice. Yeah.
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: And then and then that becomes like I'm telling this
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: because I've saw a Cobblest doing this kind of study
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: where he would study what the guys are requesting, and
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: then he would see like the astrological time and whatever,
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: and it would.
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: Make sense for ever work for what their requests.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: So like a person doesn't even have to know because
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: the guys already not telling them this just make it.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. And like,
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: for me, that also highlights the importance of that trust
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: between like the practitioner and then whoever we're working with spiritually,
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: to be able to trust first of all, that we've
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: got some good spirits on our team and it's not
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: just like some sketchy, random spirit fucking us up. I
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: think some people don't know how to discern that, which
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: is interesting. But when we do have that spiritual relationship
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: that is super strong, it becomes easier to trust some
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: of these instructions that you're talking about and then having
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: the faith in the whole process to actually execute on it,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: rather than to be like, oh, I'm getting this impression
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: that I should get this at this time, but I'm
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: just going to ignore that because I'm just making that up,
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: which I have heard from some newer practitioners, especially that
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: they're kind of afraid to go down that path and
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: follow whatever that let's say, inspired speech happens to direct
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: them be doing. That's definitely an interesting thing to bring up.
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I completely agree with you.
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: You've got to trust what you're listening to or like
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: know how to differentiate because otherwise, yeah, I mean you
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: also kind of trust it, right, Like you wouldn't do
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: it because you don't trust.
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: If I know the.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: Person's helping me is like an expert, it's like hiring
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: a person in real life, right, if I'm hiring an expert, Yeah,
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: I'm trusting with the guys talking involving him. You know,
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: I'm hiring him because he's an expert. Yeah makes sense?
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, that's huge.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I think there's different styles to a lot of
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the contract work requires a lot of really highly segmented
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: and uh specific forms, Whereas if you're just trying to
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: get to know your local nature and everything else like that,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: you're already in that conversation. So tapping into that a
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: little bit more is not going to require all those
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: rituals and things.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Absolutely well.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: I know you also with your pH d, Like, how
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: does that tie into kind of like what you're doing.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, so TILDR. I'm doing a PhD in
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: a Philosophy of Science department. So the other name for
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: that feel does Science and Technology studies, So we basically
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: look at science, what is it, how does it work?
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. And so within that context, I am
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: doing work on witchcraft and magic as a form of
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: trauma healing, and so the tail dr on that, because
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: it's like a lot of writing on it, is that trauma.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: We get there because we kind of are frozen and
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: we we're kind of paralyzed, right. Trauma basically is a
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: paralysis response, and that's why it's so persistent, That's why
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: we kind of stay there a long time once we're there.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: And So what I think is really unique about witchcraft
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: and magic is it inherently is about action. It's about
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: doing something. It is like, you can't be paralyzed and
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: do magic. Really like, you have to do something. You
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: have to set an intention, you've got to go get
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: the stuff, you've got to do the practice, you've got
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: to act on it. Really and so my argument basically
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: is that witchcraft and magic is specifically unique spiritually because
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: it is so action oriented. It isn't really about past
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: civity or accepting things as they are, which is distinct
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: from a lot of other kind of spiritual tradition spaces,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: which is about acceptance, you know, whatever, whatever, all of
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: that type of thing. We're just gonna like let the
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: vibes be how they are. We're going to accept life
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: as it is. We're going to be you know, very chill.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: And what I like about magic for trauma is it's
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: possible to be like, all right, everything sucks, let's make
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: it not suck. I don't want to accept the fact
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: that everything sucks, Like, let's change some shit. And my
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: argument basically is that there's an empowerment in that that
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: can help dislodge that paralysis, freeze response that a lot
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: of people get in trauma. Obviously, I think everyone should
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: also metathorpy do all that normal sciencey shit, but if
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: we are going to get engaged spiritually, my argument basically
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: is that magic can really help people if they take
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: it seriously.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I totally agree with that. I think, you know, I've
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: even said before, I think a lot of shadow work
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: is very important, you know, the practice magic absolutely and
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: like even for myself, like I guess at one point
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: before I started, you know, I just getting into a
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: little bit deeper. I was doing kind of like it
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: was so much trauma based, but I was focusing on
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: things that the ways that I thought are certain things
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: were kind of engraved into me. I was not agreeing
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: with anymore, and I wanted to change. So I was
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of focusing on that too. So I'm assuming
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: you very much the same.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: That's important, absolutely, I think it's super important, and I
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: just think is crucial in the community at large. And
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: what I do observe sometimes, unfortunately, is a lot of
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: people that say teaching this stuff or presenting themselves to
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: be experts at magic or whatever, who their life sucks.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: They seem miserable, and I'm kind of like, dude, like,
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: where's your magic in all of this? Like, how is
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: it that you haven't healed all of this shit yet
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: and your life is a disaster. It does make me
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: sometimes question people's practice, like if they're still mud after
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: so long, because this stuff really is supposed to help people,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: like if you do it properly, like it really can
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: elevate you out of some shit. So that to me
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: is just always like a little bit interesting to observe.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I guess that, Keith, it was all.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: There's also times when I just from my experience, sometimes
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: people do shadow work and it's like, I think you're
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: kind of just feeding that team in now you're not
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: really doing totally. Yeah, And I mean that's probably slippery
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: slope with anybody. Really.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: That's cool when you when you like schedule to kind
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: of be done for that.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so hopefully summer twenty twenty six. So like the
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: thing has been written like since July, it's just jumping
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: through all the academic hoops. Like academics are very slow
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: in terms of scheduling their stuff. Like hurting academics is
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: kind of like hurting cats. Like it's very challenging. Like
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: everyone is on like a very chilled out timeline. So
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: at the moment, it's just like waiting for everyone else
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: to kind of read it. And then we're going to
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: have to invite two more kind of external examiners to
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: jump on board, and then I'll have a really fun
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: three to four hour oral example. I will get to
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: prove that I am not done. So that's like how
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: it goes. That'll be doctor Sabrina the Witch Doctor. So
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: that'll be very fun. It'll be fun. Yeah, we'll see
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: how it goes.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: And I know you got a bunch of books too,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: So when we get into some of that actually doing.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: That, I have many books.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Yea, let's see.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: I'll show you guys, just for just for fun, these
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: kind of heavy all right, this is all my things.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: So there's actually one Journal missing, So I've got four journals,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: two Tarot Journals, one Oracle Card Journal, and then one
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Magic Journal. Says the Magic Journal very fun cover. But
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: otherwise I think my most interesting books are probably my
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: graphic novels, which are these. So this is my first one.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: This actually got nominated for the Best Graphic Novel in
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: Canada when it came out, which is which fun. So
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: it was originally self puff. Now it's with Wiser And
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: this is basically nice a magical philosophy type of book.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: So the guy who wrote the foreword is like one
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: of the foremost environmental philosophers working right now. And basically
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about witchcraft as a form of environmental knowing,
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: Like what do we learn about the environment in the
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: land from witchcraft and animism and all of that. So
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: it's like very very vibey, and it's also very much
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: like magic in the city, like magic in an urban setting,
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: Like what does it mean to connect with witchcraft and
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: magic when we are living like downtown in a big city,
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: which is pretty much where I've lived for the last
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know, twenty years. I haven't lived out in
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: the burbs in a really long time, so how do
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: we do magic amongst the skyscrapers. It's kind of what
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: that's about. And then this is actually a part of
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: the PhD, this graphic novels. This is like witchcraft and
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: trauma kind of memoir type of stuff. This is specifically
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: kind of my story and how how did I come
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: to understand this shit? It's like three times longer than
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: the other ones will try to show you, guys. So
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: I did all the art and the writing and the
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: design blah blah blah. So like, yeah, so I'm really
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: proud of this one. So this came out this year,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: thank you. And then this is like a witchy one
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: oh one And it was actually originally signed a Penguin,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: but then they were pressing me off, so I bought
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: my rights back and just signed to self pub and
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: I have absolutely no regrets. So this is kind of
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: like more pros like technique based how to. So my
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: mission with this was to write a non denominational energy
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: how the fuck to do the stuff because a lot
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: of people would read my first book and they're like
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: they'd be like, all right, I bought it, and now
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: what do I do? And so this book is kind
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: of the answer to that. Question, and it can be
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: used no matter what people believe, like if they're Christian, atheist, Buddhists,
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: what they want to do magic like that's very much
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: like energy work mechanics, pretty much as how I describe it.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: And then this one came out this year a few
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: months ago. Actually it's like my most cute sea book
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: for sure. It's called The Witch at Home, very cute.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: And so this one is like magic in the mundane,
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: and I'm basically explaining like typical stuff we do every day,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: like cooking, putting on our shoes, putting on moisturizer like
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: stuff like that, and how can we understand that as
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: as magical if we've got the right intention. So I
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: really don't think magic has to be put on our
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: witchy cloak and clap three times and get twenty candles.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Like I love all that stuff, don't get me wrong,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: But like I think, like it seems basic, but I
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: think it's like sneakly advanced as well. So that's that.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: And then I've got a book of poetry which is
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: a little bit more dark and it is more like
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: sexual assault healing type of poems, but there is like
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: a magical element because I did work with witchcraft to
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: kind of move past that. And so there is poems
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: about those rituals in here too, for anyone for whom
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: that would be healing, which I think is a lot
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: of women unfortunately. So that's the repertoire. And I've got
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: like four or five other ones planned. So we'll see.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, too.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: Many books in my brain, so we'll see what happens.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: It's funny. My other favorite academic author, magician is a
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: guy named Isaac Bonowitz. Okay, nineteen seventies. Yeah, he got
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: his degree in magic and they're like, no, we're not
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: doing that anymore. So it's been a long time, but
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: it's sort of had that chasm there, but I think
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: a lot more academics are going back to magic. Is like,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: you know, there's so much more stuff here that we
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: missed the first time, calling it pseudoscience or whatever.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: Totally yeah, And I think there actually is a program
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: I think in the Netherlands. You guys know what I'm
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: talking about where you can actually get I think a
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: master's and a PhD in like occult studies or something.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: Do you guys want to.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Guy's going over there soon, So ask Matt. He's going
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: to be uh, definitely researching that.
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: Okay, then exactly like the thing that you're talking about that,
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: I can see it.
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: I can see it happened there.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's cool as hell, So that's happening. And there
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: is actually an interesting book. I haven't read it yet,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: but it's on my shelf. It's called I'm in the Academy,
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: which I think is kind of about this whole type
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: of thing, like that connection between occultism meant academics. It's interesting.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Ours notoria. You know about that one. I did a
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: whole book about spells on how to get the angels
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: to occupy your brain so you can copy down these
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: agent homes better.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: It's really interesting.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like a real big one on memory
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: old I think from the whole hundreds.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: Even if you think about before, right, like the Quadrivium, trivium,
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: this kind of stuff like what they used to study,
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: or the Masonic guys, the Freemasons, like yeah, they're basically academics,
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: they were scholars and whatever.
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: It just now it got kind of corrupted into this.
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: Oh no, it's sony sites. Yeah cool.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Well then even the other way where some people don't
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: even incorporate science into it.
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they won't even worse.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I think academic study can always help people who
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: are practicing magic. Like, it is interesting to me how
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: many people are so anti academic study, and it's like
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: whatever you believe, Like read the history book, like, read
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: read the things, Like it's not gonna like fuck up
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: your practice. It'll actually probably give you more interesting things
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: to consider.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it might actually broaden it for you, make it moreach.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: I fall in love with it.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I think there's always somebody to be gained
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: from learning more, Like there's never something bad about that.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I've even said, well there's a ton go ahead.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of anthropology books out there about these
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: native practices with a whole bunch of really interesting insights.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: So if you look up the ethnography of like voodoo,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: they've got tons and tons of books on this stuff.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: So it's it's an untapped resource when it comes to magic.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like my Bookshelf over Yonder has like got a
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: lot of that shit, And like I don't practice who
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: or any of that stuff, but like reading about it
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: academically I think is useful for anyone who is practicing
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: any form of magic, like even if people have no
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: plans to ever go down that route for themselves personally
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: in their practice, Like it's you're right, like there is
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: still so much to be gained from learning about like
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: what does magic look like in different cultures? And how
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: does that look?
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Even sometimes I just real quick sometimes I even think
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: just seeing the cross cross symbolism can even help, like
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: you get a better understanding.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: Too, absolutely yeah, because a lot of people are using
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: similar mechanics, like not always like often.
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: En Yeah, yeah, that's even if you don't use the
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: same name, it's still magic, you know, like if you
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: study car Jung and his stuff, it's purely alchemy and
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: magic and they call it psychotropy.
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: Okay, cool, you want to call it coming out good
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: for you?
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely yeah, that.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Would be kind of like the really the shadow work
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: of a magician. Mm hmmm.
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think a lot of people maybe not
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: a lot, but like enough to be noticeable, are doing
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: magic from that space of being unhealed or like really
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: occupying the shadow space or whatever that is, and then
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: that creates these unpleasant ripples for themselves and like whoever
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: else I know, and Unfortunately, I have seen that a
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: lot over the years, like in the larger magical occult community,
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: like like the witch Wars, like the drama between everyone,
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: like it just seems to me so unnecessary, like if
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: we're all doing that work, like, why is this happening?
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's unfortunately, that's why you know, this
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: is probably controversial and I don't know, Oh well, this
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: is my opinion that could be a side effect of
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: actually not doing the work, because unfortunately there's a lot
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: of that. This was kind of something I kind of
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: wanted to get into. I know you talked about it
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: not too long ago on your show. I don't want
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: to get into it too much, but I do like
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: to bring up the point kind of I think this
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: is why you even see people losing themselves and others
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: and why, like I think people like Listen there the
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: same probably some of the same reasons I did loss
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: have no control. I want to control in my life.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I might have been fearful why I even
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: got into this stuff, but at some point I'm going
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: to have to probably work on myself and I'm if
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: I'm worried about protesting about some the fucker I never knew.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: How am I fixing myself?
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: You know, if I'm worried about what the TV is
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: fucking telling me to think, how am I working on myself?
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Mm hm? You know. And unfortunately that seems to be
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: like almost like this growing thing of like some sort
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: of let'll just keep it serious, like social justice warring,
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: virtual signaling shit. Yeah, any way, I hate to say
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: it is. I'm gonna keep it in eyes mostly just motherfuckers,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: completely inauthentic anyway.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now I agree completely, and I've gotten a lot
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: of pushback for saying similar things as I'm sure you know,
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: Like it is interesting to me how much that mindset
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: that you've just described is infecting at least the Witchy space.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: Like I can't really speak to what that looks like
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: and like the OTO or anything like that, because it's
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: like not really my sphere, Like I have no idea,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: but in Witchy Land, where it is like a lot
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: of women that has kind of taken over, a lot
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: of the vibe is like this kind of such a
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: justice war activism, and then you see like a lot
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: of these women bullying each other. I've experienced people doing
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: that to me, and like it is fucked up. I'm like,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: you guys, like, what is going on here?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: This is a show that's dropping in a few weeks.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: What I mean? Uh oh? I think this week that
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I did a few weeks ago on somebody else's show
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: where I was like, legit told two or three times
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: that I had white privilege, and I was like, Yo,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: what the fuck is going on right now? Because I
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: didn't because I didn't agree with the OTO having meetings
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: about George Floyd's situation, and like I'm sitting here and
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: like I was really trying to be nice, and I'm like, Yo,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: I have somebody who's in front of me who does
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: never even doesn't know anything about this organization telling me
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: how it actually should be run. I'm like, like, how
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: fascist is that? Actually? Like, who the fuck are you
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: to tell the OTO how the fuck to run? They're
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: based on the Book of the Law, not fucking CNN.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: George Floyd isn't in the Book of the Law. There's
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: no George Floyd chapter. There's nothing in there tell you
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: to watch fucking CNN and go protest, But you're what
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: the fuck? It was just like I was just like,
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: what is going on right now? And it's like, Yo,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: this that shit is a little too much.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: Man, It's a bit weird, honestly, And I think, to
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: me it makes me concerned for not to get dark,
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: but like for the future of democracy, because like if
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: people are so easily believing exactly hook line and sink
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: or whatever they're seeing by some like idiot on the
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: news say like, have we lost all discernment? Have we
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: lost like basic media literacy? Have we lost critical thinking skills?
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: Like what the hell is going on here? Is like
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: to me, this type of thing that like you're describing,
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: like we should not be here as a society especially
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: and this is controversial, Like but if you look at
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: actually what happened with the whole George Floyd thing, like
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: it's not exactly what people are presenting it to be,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: and the whole BLM organization is not exactly what people
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: are presenting it to be. It's like a huge grift.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: And he died of like a drug overdose basically, and
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: the other thing to again get too crazy, but before
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: he passed in that manner, let's say the optics of it,
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: there was a white guy who passed in a really
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: similar manner, you know, with the knee and whatever.
• 53:14
  Speaker 5: I forget the.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Guys, I know what you're talking about. I know what
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: you're talking about.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about and so it's like that got no coverage.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: But if that did get media attention, like could the
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: optics of and the reality of exactly how the George
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: Ford thing went down could have been different perhaps, And
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: no one really wants to have that conversation because it's
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: more complicated and more new. It's just more going on
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: than the typical like all right, just believe this shit
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: and then you know, go forth and protest, like it's
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: very bizarre.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: And you know what, Like I what I realized, like
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: near the end of when I was like kind of
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: getting badgered. At one point, I was even like, sorry,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I was born white and grew up in Long Island.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how much of this is getting edited.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested to see what's coming out. But like
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: at one point it was basically I don't want to
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: get too specific, but like people, basically her husband is
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: brown and she's afraid of ice. So I'm like thinking
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: in my head, so all of this comes down to
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: you feeling fucking powerless and scared and instead of doing
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: the fucking work and stopping being living in fear. You're
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: gonna make every other motherfucker around you think the way
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: you should and scream for you. That's black magic, in
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: my fucking opinion.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Yep. And a lot of people unfortunately are perhaps like
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: due to lack of strength in themselves or like a
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: lack of personal integrity. I don't know, like don't stand
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: up to it, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah,
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: I'm also white, you know, like my dad is Fromming,
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: and it's like I have zero shame about that, like
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: nor will I ever. And the fact that there is
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: this weird manipulative thing going on right now, like where
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: people are being pressured to feel shame, to perform shame.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: It's very fucked up. I really it end like soon.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: But because I was told everything is political, and I
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: was like what I was like, Yo, I said, I
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: haven't talked about that ship really on my show in
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: a longe fucking time, because all it does is cause
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: fucking decisive you know, division, And I was like, you
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: all ship on both fucking sides, I said, I think
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: both sides fucking suck. You know, we're all getting sucked
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: by then. But it's just like I don't know, it's
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: just like why am I being told I have to
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: incorporate politics into my own show?
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: You and like coming from the academy too, it's like
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: the way that all this shit is being talked about,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: like it has its origins in academia and a lot
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: of people don't realize that. But like this whole like
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: critical race theory, like intersectionality, all of that stuff that
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: comes from the academy, and like that's fine as like
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: an academic exploration and discussing ideas and we're going to
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: throw some stuff around and see how it lands. But
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: when that becomes orthodoxy out like I r L in
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: like governmental organizations and whatever, like, people become pressured to
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: just adopt the ideology. It becomes a new religion basically,
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: and if you're part of the religious cult, then you
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: get shunned, ostracized whatever it is.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Behavior When is when has politics ever not been magic?
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: I even said that. I was like, in my opinion,
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: if you're if you're a magician and you're playing with politics,
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: you're a fucking slave or I said something along that line,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: and like you would you know automatically if you're a magician,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I ain't even fucking with that. It's pure slavery. I
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: was like, there's enough people out there pushing hate. I'm
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: good on that.
• 56:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, the guy up there and making the actual Yeah.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Then at one point, at one point, I wanted to
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: get real fucked up and I was gonna be like, Yo,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: some white motherfuckers got his neck blown off? Aren't you
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: fucking happy right now? Like, let's keep it real. You
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: know you got some motherfucker that you probably hated. You
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: gotta watch him die on fucking TV. You're not good
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: for a few weeks, like you guys just sa I'm
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: never happy with anything. More and more and more and more,
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: it's fucked.
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: Like I cried when that happened, and like I'm fucking.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Sick that that sh was re played over and over
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: and over again.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: It was fucking traumatized, right, so fucked and like the
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: other thing with that too, Like I did a whole
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: bunch of podcast episodes about that, and actually a few
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: YouTube lives about that.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I noticed that you did.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: I was going off. I was not stoked on how
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: a lot of people respond to that, like being happy
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: that he passed and all of this ship.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't like him. I didn't like him. I
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: didn't give a fuck about that dude, And I just
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: don't think what happened to him. If that was real,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: it was even fucking cool. I honestly thought he was
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: fucking annoying, to tell you the truth, But he doesn't
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: deserve to die.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know all this stuff, but like I had
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: no beef with him, to be honest. But what did
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: start making the waves in the witchy community was that
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: apparently a few days before that happened, like apparently some
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: witches put a hex on him, like some ex at
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: sea witches or whatever.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I saw that ship. I saw some shit
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: like that, right.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: And so that's part of what I was talking about
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: on my podcast, was like I don't give a ship
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: how much you don't like somebody like I truly don't care,
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: Like we don't want to be hexting just because we
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: don't like someone's politics. Like maybe I'll disagree, I don't know,
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: but like for me, I'm just like.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: What the Fuckymember? I remember what I was like, I
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: was like kind of just like getting into it. I
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: had already been interested in magic and practicing, but like
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I sort of like kind of starting to creep like
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: the internet now, and this is like Facebook I was
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: looking at and I started coming across groups and I
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: joined some of them, and all of a sudden, like again,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: this shows you how I was not even into politics,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: don't even fucking know there's an election coming up, and
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I see people like getting together
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: to like fucking sway the election away from Trump, and
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: I was like, like, what the fuck up? People? What
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: and you know, no offense In my head, I'm like, yo,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: these motherfuckers actually think they're doing something like come on,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: like this is this you.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: Imagine thing that's where you want to put your magical energy.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: This is a structured tempotantrum.
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: It's absolutely like it's arrogant, like it's entitled, it's childish,
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: like how old are we all right now? Do you
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: know what I mean? Like to me, like if that's
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: where someone is putting their magical effort, I'm like, oh,
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: you're so fucked up and unhealed right now, like you
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: should be directing all of that vibe back into yourself.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: And like, I do think this is important because there
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: is so much assumption, at least in like WITCHI Landia
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: that like all witchy people are let's say, left wing.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Like I got invited to be like an external reader
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: for some new book on like feminist witchcraft or whatever
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: by this publisher, and so like, I don't know what
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: they thought they were signing up for when they got
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: me to do it, because I'm like the most contrarian
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: person in the sphere really, and so you know, like
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: my feedback on this book was basically like this is bullshit,
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: Like not all witches are left wing, you know, woke
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: activists who want a hex Trump. Like I'm sorry, but
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: the book was arguing that, like that that's a part
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: of witchcraft inherently to be a far left activist. Like
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: there was not even any mention that perhaps some witches
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: are conservative or even centrist, God forbid.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Like there was just a really good point.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Margo Adler started chiseling the uh, you know, the epitaph
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: a long time ago, but I think feminism really did
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: do a lot to destroy the whole wick slash whatever movement.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: It just sort of it kind of hit the wall after.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: That, you know.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, I've got so much I could say about that,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: for sure, but it's it's.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: Unfortunate and I'll even say there was people that I
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: was You see, this is another thing. I really didn't
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: even know much about politics or even certain phrases until
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: I was like in the OTO, because like there were
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: certain people that I knew that would kind of start
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: bitching about certain things, like I think they did. He
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: somehow made the Deacon roll like available for non binary people,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: and they were like, yo, some dude was were like,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: what the fuck you know? I mean so much like that.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: It's just like this whole ritual is based off energy,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: and like, what the fuck did you just do with that?
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: Me?
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I really didn't even know what the fuck
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: any of the ship meant to be totally honest with you,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: as I'm hearing this stuff, so I really didn't pay
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: much mind to it. But like they were dudes that
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: I realized due to like this stuff happening, they were
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: extremely far right. And I still was like, Yo, you're
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: fucking crazy too, motherfucker. You know. So I'm just gonna
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: say no matter which way it streamed you when I
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: wasn't cool with it, you know. So you know, I
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: just want to put that out of there, and people
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: think I'm a fucking nazi because I was just tired
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: of the liberalism. But no, I was tired of fucking
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: either one. Actually, you know, I was tired of hearing
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: the fucking extreme pushback from the fucking stupid shit. I
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: was just like, oh man, this is silly. Now, what
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: the fuck are we're talking about? This isn't magic.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, it doesn't take barely anything to be called the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: Nazi these days too. You know, like you could just
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: disagree with someone on some basic thing, you get.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: Called the Nazi for not believing somebody else fucking one
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: hundred percent and acting like them. It's like, how the
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: fuck is this go? The Nazi.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: Very aware it's ironic. It's ironic for sure.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: I'll over here try to fucking just stay by myself,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: like and bother nobody like what the fuck man I was?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: I was even telling some other people. I was like, yo, like,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: I'm the type of like, you don't want me to
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: start getting involved in that shit, because I'll be the
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: motherfucker you see on TV and it called just driving
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: through a fucking protest. You want me to get all
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: rah rah rah, You'll fucking see if you push me
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: that far. Let me be the cool, chill guy who
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: talks about magic. That's where I could do the best
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: to help people. I'm not going to do good behind
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: balls because I decided to play politics and just fucking
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: went nuts. You know, I'm no good to anybody that way. Sorry.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. I
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: stick to magic.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Speaking in prison.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: I've actually and I've been in prison too, so that's
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: another thing I don't want to go back either.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: I've never been. I've never been. Just everyone knows, no shade.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: But I actually have gotten emails from family members of
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: prisoners who are like, hey, my dad is super into witchcraft.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: He is it okay if he wants to know, if
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: it's okay if he uses your book Witchbody to teach
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: his fellow inmates about witchcraft. And I was like, that
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: is the coolest thing ever, Like absolutely, yes, he has
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: my permission to do that, Like that's totally fine. And
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: the message back was like, thank you so much, because
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: literally every other witchy author that we've asked this to
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: is either not replied or said no, which I find
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: like so bizarre, Like why not, Like I see no shade, No,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: nothing wrong with that, Like if they want to work
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: on their practice and have spirituality behind bars, Like, how
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: does that negatively impact me in any way? I just
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: thought it was great and I've actually tarot read for
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: someone in prison.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: Actually, so I got a phone call and it was
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: so I don't know how they did this. Maybe you
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: can let me know, but I guess they smuggled somehow
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: a cell phone.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: Literally he was just calling me and like it was
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: a normal phone call and I was just like pulling
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: cards and it was like, oh, you can't see your kids. Wait,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: why can't you see your kids? It was like halfway
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: through the reading, and he was like, oh, I'm in prison.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: I was like, hold on what the book?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: Can not believe said? Dude paid to rent the cell
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: phone in prison. I mean, that's cool. It's just wild's wild.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: It was wild, like and it was fun and I
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: you know, I gave him, you know, my advice and
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: all that, like it's all cool. But I was really
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: touched by that actually, like because he was a genuine dude,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: Like he wanted to better his relationship with his kids,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: and I have nothing bad to say about that. And
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: here he is like trying to get a reading in prison,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: Like good for I will.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: Say when I was in prison, I was exposed to
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: a ton of occultism. Hmmm, just like how books. Uh
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: there was books on like uh, there was a ton
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: of Crawley books in there. There would be books on
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: like different forms of ideas of magic, conspiracy books, David
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Ike books. You know, people into like like thinking that
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: from like the plates and ship like that, like really
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: any off the wall Dwight doctor Dwight York type ship.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: We started getting into like you know, five percent of shit,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: including aliens and twusting that shit. And then you know,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: the Muslims had their own like you know, mathematics and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: all that. You'd have those types of stuff in there,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: you know, Wes in there. There there was Satanists in there.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: There was there was actually I think a few Thelamites,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: but I really I knew of it and even did
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: read Crowley stuff in there. But I wasn't like fucking
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: with them too much. I just you know, but I
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: knew there was a people do any.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: Magic in prison? Or like, how did your practice look
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: like when you were in there?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: I you know, I wasn't really practiced. I didn't start
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: actually start doing ritualistic work. I was basically just reading
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: everything m hmm. I just start doing that until I
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: got out. Yeah. But yeah, there was a lot of stuff.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: It was really weird. Actually, like when I talk about
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: the Council of Nine and that will say on ship
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: that was in a book that I found I read
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: in prison.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: It was just crazy.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there was just a lot of a lot
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: of occult stuff in there, and it's very uh so,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: like I I it's just makes sense. I guess that
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: maybe somebody would actually, you know, call you because there's
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: people reading that ship in prison. Some of the stuff,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: some stuff I do have. I have wondered though. It's like, yo,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: is this ship getting dropped off in here so people
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: believe some of the silliest shit possible. Mmmm. He saw
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: it was just like off the wall, this whole Reptilian
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: agundant whatever. But there's there's just something, you know, there's
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: all sorts of wild, weird stuff in prison. It's interesting.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: That is interesting. Honestly.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: I remember the first time, the first time I ever
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: even heard of Beheld the Pale Horse was in prison,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: and the big thing about it was that supposed he
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: wasn't allowed in prison. So that's why, like even my
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: bunky was like, oh, it was fucking book. I got
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: there and he's like, we're not supposed to have this,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: and it was like some gang members, some high up
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: gang member from the fucking uh to the Disciples, the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: gang to Gangster Disciples. Coolest motherfucking though. He was like
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: he was like, yo, he was like reading this shit
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: and he was like blowing his mind. You know, he
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: was like, I fucking knew the government was fucking us.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: Like it was like this revelationary book to this kid.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: It was so funny to watch, like you read it
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: and like get mind blown over it. Yeah. It was
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: just wanting to see some like hardcore gangster kid like
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: just like acting like himself, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: but yeah, that was the first time I heard of it.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: It was like funny. Of course in prison, that's just interesting.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: That's so interesting. Magic book club in prison you knew,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: not me. I did not know that, but it makes
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: sense now.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know a lot of things too, though.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: People get shit sent in and then they just leave
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: it there. That's basically how the library was at Four Takes.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: I mean most of that is oldes books left over
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: from people I left books there. I donated books to them.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: When I left, so apparently at least one of my
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: books is in there somewhere.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: That is awesome, that's cool. The ship nice and which
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: do you know which one was? I don't want to
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: ask speakaus you know, yeah, I actually don't know.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay, like it's in my email somewhere, but honestly,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: I can't remember my head. Yeah, somewhere America on the
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: other side of the wire.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: Because it turned out being Nick were at the same
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: for it. I was just in the army and he
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: was in the jail.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, the prison that I went to
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: was Fort Dix in New Jersey, and it is an
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: actual active army base too, So like I was literally
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: in prison and he was on the other side of
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: the fence and training. I was like, we realized at
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: one point where I was like, what the fuck that
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: he be saying? Right, that's.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: Interesting too, Right, So in basic training they let you
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: choose which church you go to, and me and a
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: couple of the other Witchier people they were like, well,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: we're wicking, we got to go out in the field.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: So they let us go out of the field with
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: our tarot cards on Sundays.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: Did they give you tobacco? Oh? Oh wait, you weren't
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: in prison, that's right. I'm thinking we give you tobacco.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: That's cool though.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we had people were like can we go with them?
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: We just want to sit in the field. We don't
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: want to go to church or anything. So we got
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: a lot more members that way.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: That's even another thing. I think even there, they had
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: some sort of Native American thing and I'm almost positive
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: there was some wicked thing that allowed them to have
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: tobacco too for their services. So that was like a
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: way that you see like tobacco going around getting sold.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: H yeah, yeah no, but I'm just saying, like I
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: think I remember it even came like the like the
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: Wickens were even i think even acknowledged in this prison
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: and given like tobacco for the ritual ship. So I
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: mean there, Yeah, there was a lot of shit going
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: on at that place.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: That's interesting.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: I like read a book about like prison magic.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: I would I think ethnography right there, prison magic, you.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: Know who probably actually has shit on that and then
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: that to promote the guy I'm wondering, Damien Echles, I
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: mean that guy was in prison for fucking how long?
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: He says he was still practicing magic in there.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 5: Hm hmmm.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: So you know who Damien Nichols is, Sabrina. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: I mean it could be a controversial character, but you
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: know whatever, I'm just saying he was in prison for
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: a long time and supposed to sp.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: Doing magic.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if he was in prison, sometimes I question what
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: sh it's real and what's not with this stuff anymore?
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: But uh yeah, anything else that you would like to uh,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: you know, at least maybe promote or anything that you
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: could talk about.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I could talk forever about whatever you
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: guys want. But to promote I guess, yes, tarot things.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: I'm very good actually at doing the tarot. So if
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: anyone does want to get a reading listening to this,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: you know where to find me the Internet. It's kind
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: of my big thing. Otherwise, this might sound a bit odd,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: but I'm doing a lot of life coaching right now, okay,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: and like interestingly, almost all of my clients are men. Actually, no,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: all of my life coaching clients right now are men,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: and so it's like life coaching with spirituality and magic
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: stuff kind of rolled in there. So it's a lot
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: of teaching people virtual spiritual stuff they can kind of
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: do to get their shit on track, which has been
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: honestly such a fucking fun time. And like I love
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: working with men, like so there's like I mean, business, decisive, respectful, No,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: they show up with an agenda, like a little itinerary
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: of things I want to get into, Like I fucking
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: love it. Like it's so interesting as ten years ago
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: my clients are pretty much ninety five percent women, and
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: now it's like completely flipped. And I don't really know
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: why that happened, Like I didn't change anything per se
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: about myself or whatever, So I don't know, but it's
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: been great, Like it's been really really fun to work
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: with folks.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: In that way. I could see from my experience from
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: being like in the OTO or just being like around
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: the witch Grift community or other like orders. When you
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: start getting into like more of the ceremonial shit, you'll
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: definitely see a much more a male uh population. And
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: as you start getting closer to less of that and
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: more I think towards witchcraft, much more women. So I
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: don't know if it's the whole thing of being structured.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: Maybe the women don't want that and the guys are
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: just very much like I'm regimented. Just this this, this, this,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: and that's how it works.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: It's it's been interesting.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: I have noticed that myself not saying either be the
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: ones right or wrong. I think you probably need a
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: little bit both.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: But you know absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's been
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: a fun time. So it's been a lot of what
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: I've been doing these days. And I guess you promote
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: like my books, I've got a lot, they're on Amazon.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know, like at least one of them will
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: be a good present for yourself or someone else.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And you did all the art yourself correct,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: literally all of it. That is impressive too, Like there
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: has to be time consuming.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: Oh for sure. Yeah, So like it'll take me a
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: lot longer to do a graphic novel than like a
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: prose book. Like a prose book, I can spit out
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: pretty quickly, but a graphic novel, like the drawing takes
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: way longer than the writing. Yeah, incredibly laboring and so
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: for sure. And I'll get like a little like pain
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: in my elbow from like painting for so long. It's
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: it's a lot, but wow, but it's fun.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be definitely, I guess, like a lover
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: of passion that stuff if you keep doing it.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I've always been an artist and I can't
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: imagine never painting again, you know. And like I used
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: to be a commercial artist, so it's like magazine cover
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: stuff like that, like art for other people's commercial situations,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: and so now it's just all illustrating my own writing.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: Like that's kind of more my focus these days. And
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: I love the blend of images and writing. And I
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: think with something like witchcraft and magic, it does make
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: sense to have a visual component because most of these
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: books about magic there isn't necessarily always a visual So
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: part of what I do with my graphic novels is
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: to at least depict, like what does that process feel
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: like for me? Because if you just look at someone
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: practicing magic, it doesn't usually look like there's anything going on,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: Like it looks like they're like sitting peacefully in front
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: of a candle or something like, which is totally fine,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: but to basically be able to depict what that spiritual
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: experience feels like, like going on a spiritual journey to
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: do this or that, or a spirit contact or YadA,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: YadA like For me, the graphic novel opens up a
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: lot of possibilities in terms of communicating, like what does
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: magic feel like experientially? At least from my perspective.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: That's great. Somebody somebody a cult to suck at art
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: like specific I.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Don't even attempt it. I don't even attempt the ship
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: no way stick figures.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: So it's nice to see what that's really on top
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: Do you my best ever very nicely mention that because
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: we on the Tutor's spaces we do on the Great Launch,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: we talk a lot about like uh, movies or books
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: or you know, uh, drawing the Enemy what ever that
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: does exactly this that you mentioned, Like, they'll they'll use
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 4: some kind of esoteric thing.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 5: To explain the story, and then if someone is just
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: watching it for the story, they won't necessarily know it.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: But if you know the thing, it's like obvious that
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 4: they're using some kind of magical thing, and so you
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: get it. It's a very nice hyper repertoire that you
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: can build as well for your own practical things, because yeah,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: I mean ceremonial magic. That's the thing people don't understand
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: as well, like ceremonial magic, it's not about the actual
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: things that you're wearing in swam because that by itself
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: doesn't matter.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 5: Like yeah, sure i can wear some sword and whatever.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: And speak stuff, but if I'm not applying the stuff
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 4: with my mind and emotions and everything, then yeahspoint.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: So absolutely, yeah. I think a lot of people like
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: don't realize that if they're newer to the space, like
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: they do think that there is just like this magic
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: esthetic or this witchy esthetic and you just have to
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: perform the aesthetic, like the kind of hairy potterification of
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: craft aesthetics, and like you're good, that's all you have
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: to do. But like you're right, like it is all
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: mine based half the time.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: And I even into that. I even fell into that myself.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: So you know, yeah, I'm like speaking of art and
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: creativity too, Like for me, the practice and the process
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: of creating art or writing, like it's very similar in
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: terms like to my magical practice in terms of like
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: the energy flow and like the arc of like channeling
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: something like touching into a particular energy current and then
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 3: just riding the wave and letting it come through. Like
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: for me, there is a similarity there ritualistically, which I
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: think is probably the same thing for quite a few
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: like occulty artist type folks.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much, there we go.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 5: Is not your work?
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: Oh cool?
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: I love this, Like right behind you, he's note a
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: couple of pieces. It's getting better. Even made his own
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: easel out of like a fucking branch.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: I've like never used an easel in my life. I
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: just paint flat.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay, you were saying your elbow before.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's it's a wet medium that
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: I use. It's like India ink, So if I painted,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: it would have Pollock type of vibes, which is not
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: exactly what I'm going for.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: And it's kind of kind of crucial for anyone trying
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 4: to improve on Magic and Storm to have some kind
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: of artistic doesn't have to be you know, painting could be, music,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 4: could be anything like just making stuff with that kind
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 4: of creative part of the brain, like more right side brain.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 5: It also helps getting into states, so it's pretty cool.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Even cooking or something like that, something where
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: it need to like follow that intuitive flow. I think
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: sports like physicality, like sports something like that, like a
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: form of movement that can also be like or even dance.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: I guess that that can be creative too.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: I mean you have to be creative to be good
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: at the sport, right, Like if you're playing basketball or something,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: you cannot do the same shot over and over. People
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 4: pick up on that, so you have to come up
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 4: with new ways and you kind of have to get there,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: and that getting there is the same getting there when
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 4: you're doing magic.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: So totally it's like there's a flow state that we
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: have to access.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, I totally agree that it's almost like
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: the same thing is like for me as a ceremonial magician,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: it's like when I get into that flow state during
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: the ritual, it's just going, you don't know, I can
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: see what you're saying. It's almost like a physical meditation.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. Ye, Honestly, I think like a lot of
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: magic e folks are very like brain dominant or like
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: up here dominant, which is why I always like tell
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: my students, like, do something physical that you have to
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: like touch reality, like whether that is like painting, cooking,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: going to the gym, playing soccer, like I don't care,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: Like do something that gets you in touch with the bodies,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: Like the body is the vessel of magic and spirit
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: and all of that, like as much as it is mental,
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: like there is that like body as instrument of magic,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: thing like body as sensor. And so the more embodied
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: people are, I think, the better everything kind of tends
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 3: to go.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I totally agree. I think, you know, kind
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: of taking care of your bodies should be something that
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: more people will porate into.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting that that's not really the case. I
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: find a lot of people are just happy to stay
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: in the mental and completely neglect to the physical, whether
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: it's like eating bad, never working out like whatever.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: It is very interesting and I've done that mistake myself
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: too throughout my career, your magical career. Stopped going to
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: the gym as much as focus and more on that.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I did notice a little bit more changes
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: and myself went back to the gym and realized I
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: was like, wow, I actually feel better. I was left
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: stress because like even though I'm meditating for me, even
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: though to the gym, like I was saying before, I
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: think it's a physical meditation to an extent totally, you know,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: And it's like that I could go to the gym
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: in the morning and like leave and it's like my
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: day would be good if I didn't go. I could
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: realize I'm a cranky motherfucker. Now later it's like, I,
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: you know, I didn't get like, you know, I didn't
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: exert all that energy through the weights instead of my.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 3: Mouth, you know, totally, and like there is a channeling
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: of energy aspect to them too, like like like there
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: is like to be that. I think it's so interesting.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people in the occult space
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 3: are kind of like a bit more art se, let's say,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: and not everyone is super grounded in the physical and
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: the gym is magical I think for sure.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, very I think it's al chemical for me.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: I believe it.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: I'll definitely after the show, if you don't mind, you
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: send me like all the links that you have. I
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: think you might just have a link tree or something
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: that has all your stuff. Okay, all right, but uh yeah,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. This is really fun.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: I'd definitely like to get you back on and chop
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: it up with maybe some more topics or some other specifics,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: but definitely had a great time having you on. Thank you.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: Thanks you so much, thank you for inviting me. This
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: has been honestly a blast my snowy afternoon. You guys
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: are all awesome friends, super fun.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, well again, thank I don't I think we talked
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: about it off, but thank chat GPT because I threw
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: in a whole bunch of a cold podcasted there. I
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: was like, yo, pull out the best guests and like
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: the best topics like that these oldies shows have had,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: and it spits you out among other people that I
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: already knew of. So I was like, oh, okay, all right,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: let's get her on.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: I love it. Yeah, the same question and see if
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 3: it mentions me. I want to see, like chat GPT
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: big me up, like, let's see, it'll be funny.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: You know what.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: I've actually got some terrat clients recently from chat GPT
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: recommending me too, which is very interesting.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: Oh nice, wow, nice new Google. Yeah, so I can't
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: complain that's interesting.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: I wonder sometimes if that even happens when people typing
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: your shit in there already and it starts already, you know,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: like that you exist.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it happens to people finding your show too.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is interesting shit.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: But uh yeah, I'll definitely get all your links and
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: include them all. Thank you again, like I said, for
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: coming on. It was a great chat, like it'd be definitely.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: Can I think talk to you about some other stuff
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: in the future real quick before we end it. Matt
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: also let to let everybody know what is going on
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 5: Yes, so again. Can find me on many socials.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: That's always at Metmoor nineteen on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 4: maybe some other place. There are the Gray Lodge spaces
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 4: every Friday on Twitter. That's gonna be also on our website,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 4: the True Gray Lodge with the v so true dot
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 4: com so the True Grade Lodge dot com and my
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 4: website Cabala dot com. That's k A A B A
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 4: l a h dot com. If you want any type
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 4: of strategy reading, moralogy reading, machra reading, energy reading, or
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 4: just some match corporation, you can find me there. I'm
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 4: gonna do those a little bit more of this same
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: year and thinks they're going to change up next month,
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 4: so enjoy while it's open there. And there's always the
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: little apps and stuff that yeah, always updating it and
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: improving so I feel like that.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 5: Just make sure to go to the website. Thanks again, Nick,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 5: it was blast and stuff that you spoke to much
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 5: and yeah, nice stuff.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you making it and Headless
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: my man. Everybody know where they can find your stuff
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: and remind him about these shows.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. You can find me on Twitter and on Instagram
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: and on YouTube. Check out the Headless Giant. I have
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: Alchemy Mondays with Arrows I've got coming up tonight, We've
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: got seven seven seven with me and Nick. We'll go
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: through the Kabala of Alistair Crowley and then on Thursdays,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: send us your emails at Headless Giant Podcast at gmail
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: dot com and we will read your occult slash esoteric
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: slash paranormal stories as we go over our favorite symbols
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: throughout all of history. So check us out. And also
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: on Sundays, I've got the Trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: I've had some substitutes hopping in well. I've been on vacation,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: so check those out as well.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you, nice, Thank you very much, and Sabrina again,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. It was an
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: awesome chat. Definitely look forward to maybe having you on
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: after you get this PhD, you know, hopefully you get
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: that good Yes, yes, yes, no, no no, but I'm
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: just saying, like I like to have you, like to
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: hear you come back on and say you have it.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. That would be great. Yes, yeah,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: that's awesome. Yes, we'll definitely keep in touch. And again,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: thank you all, And that's the end of another recult Rejects.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: Until the next one. Everybody be well later.