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IDAHO STUDENTS MURDERS: Inside The Investigation · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: No motive, no murder, weapon, no suspect. What are we
0:13
Speaker 1: talking about this this hour? We are tracking breaking news.
0:18
Speaker 1: Just a moment ago, Moscow police confirmed four people were
0:22
Speaker 1: found dead in a home just steps away from the
0:24
Speaker 1: University of Idaho campus. Right now, we're continuing to work
0:28
Speaker 1: to get more details tonight. We know that students were
0:31
Speaker 1: ordered to shelter in place for a time this afternoon
0:34
Speaker 1: because of the scenes proximity to campus. Breaking news out
0:38
Speaker 1: of Moscow, Idaho, the bodies of four University of Idaho
0:42
Speaker 1: students discovered in a house just steps away from campus.
0:45
Speaker 1: Those students were discovered just yesterday afternoon in a neighborhood
0:49
Speaker 1: near Greek Row on campus. Earlier today, the university released
0:53
Speaker 1: the identities of the victims found in that house, twenty
0:56
Speaker 1: year old Ethan Shapin from Conway, Washington, twenty one year
1:00
Speaker 1: old Madison Mogan from Courtlane, twenty year old Zanna Zernodle
1:05
Speaker 1: from Post Falls, and twenty one year old Kaylee Gonzalez
1:08
Speaker 1: from Wrath from Idaho. You were just hearing our friends
1:11
Speaker 1: at k r E M at this hour the mystery
1:14
Speaker 1: surrounding the knife murders of four young students at University,
1:19
Speaker 1: Idaho still unsolved. As a matter of fact, in the
1:24
Speaker 1: last hours, we are learning new information about the quadruple
1:30
Speaker 1: murder of these young students. According to Steve Gonzalvis, the
1:35
Speaker 1: father of Kiley, he says, quote, the murders were fast,
1:41
Speaker 1: no one suffered or felt pain. He shares how his
1:45
Speaker 1: daughter came home in an earn listen. Steve Gonzalve is
1:52
Speaker 1: the father of one of the victims, twenty one year
1:54
Speaker 1: old Kayley, now shedding new light on what happened that
1:58
Speaker 1: night in his first sit down in review. It was fast,
2:02
Speaker 1: and nobody suffered and nobody felt like that kind of pain.
2:07
Speaker 1: Officials maintain the murders happened between three and four am,
2:11
Speaker 1: and that the first nine one one call was made
2:13
Speaker 1: around noon. Just hours later, Steve was informed of his
2:17
Speaker 1: daughter's death, not by police, but by family members on campus.
2:21
Speaker 1: Let's call Maddie and then you realize Maddie's gone to Madison.
2:25
Speaker 1: Mogen was Kaylee's lifelong best friend. You can't imagine sending
2:29
Speaker 1: your girl to college and then they come back in
2:33
Speaker 1: you know, and you earned. And now the families of
2:38
Speaker 1: the victims, growing frustrated by the lack of answers. I
2:42
Speaker 1: haven't earned the ability to to grieve the way that
2:47
Speaker 1: I want to grieve. I want to be able to
2:50
Speaker 1: have justice first, that from our friends Aunt GMA. As
2:55
Speaker 1: pressure is mounting and fears swirling, the university community still
3:00
Speaker 1: have no line on a suspect. I'm Nancy Grace. This
3:05
Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
3:07
Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Series X one eleven. We do know, However,
3:12
Speaker 1: certain individuals have been ruled out. Take a listen to
3:17
Speaker 1: Captain Roger Lanaire. We do not believe the following individuals
3:22
Speaker 1: are involved in this crime. The two surviving roommates, a
3:28
Speaker 1: mail scene at the Grub Truck food vendor downtown, specifically
3:33
Speaker 1: wearing a white hoodie, a private party who provided rides
3:39
Speaker 1: home to Kaylee and Madison in the early morning hour
3:43
Speaker 1: of November thirteenth. Additionally, the identity of the nine one
3:50
Speaker 1: one caller and the nine one one call have not
3:53
Speaker 1: been released, so any information out there's speculation about that.
3:58
Speaker 1: Joining me an all star to make sense of what
4:01
Speaker 1: we know right now. We do know the nine one
4:04
Speaker 1: one call has not yet been released, and in the
4:08
Speaker 1: last hours, Chief James Fry from the Moscow Police tries
4:12
Speaker 1: to answer that question. Listen, Gotti Schwartz, NBC New is
4:15
Speaker 1: just following up on the nine one one call. You
4:17
Speaker 1: said that you don't believe that's the killer. Can you
4:20
Speaker 1: conclusively rule out the person that called nine one one
4:23
Speaker 1: from inside the home as a suspect in this case?
4:27
Speaker 1: Can you, gad Of, just ask that one more time? Please? Yeah,
4:30
Speaker 1: the person that was inside the home that called nine
4:33
Speaker 1: one one, that was not one of the roommates, can
4:35
Speaker 1: you conclusively rule that person out as a suspect at
4:38
Speaker 1: this point, I don't think I said that it wasn't
4:40
Speaker 1: one of the roommates. I said that it was used
4:43
Speaker 1: with the roommates phone. I believe somebody asked if that
4:46
Speaker 1: was the killer and you said no, No, that's correct.
4:49
Speaker 1: Bottom line, the nine one one call has not yet
4:53
Speaker 1: been released, So what do we know? First of all,
4:56
Speaker 1: to Nicholas Bogel Burrows, national reporter in New York Times,
4:59
Speaker 1: joining he is there on the scene in Moscow. Nicholas,
5:03
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What is the latest? Seemingly,
5:07
Speaker 1: all the news we're getting out of Idaho is that
5:09
Speaker 1: we don't have any news. Yeah, I mean, it's this
5:12
Speaker 1: investigation is now in the third week, students are coming
5:16
Speaker 1: back to campus in Moscow. A lot of them told
5:19
Speaker 1: me yesterday they're they're really scared. They you know, are
5:22
Speaker 1: taking all kinds of extra precautions. But like you're saying,
5:26
Speaker 1: the police have really given no solid information about, you know,
5:31
Speaker 1: who might have done this or why at this point. Yeah,
5:34
Speaker 1: I want to go straight out to a special guest
5:37
Speaker 1: joining us Kathleen Canning, mellow former FBI unit chief thirty
5:42
Speaker 1: one years ten of those with the Behavioral Analysis Unit
5:47
Speaker 1: currently in Structure University, North Carolina, Wilmington. Kathleen, thank you
5:51
Speaker 1: so much for being with us. I know you just
5:53
Speaker 1: heard our friends from the New York Times joining us
5:55
Speaker 1: from Moscow. He's saying, we don't know who the suspect
6:01
Speaker 1: could be. Now compared to you, we're all amateurs. But
6:06
Speaker 1: I think we can go out on a limb and
6:08
Speaker 1: say it is a white male because typically killers kill
6:15
Speaker 1: within their own race, and because women typically statistically do
6:21
Speaker 1: not commit mass murder with a knife, which narrows it
6:25
Speaker 1: down to a white male within the orbit of at
6:28
Speaker 1: least one of these four victims. You're the expert. I
6:33
Speaker 1: want to hear your analysis to me. All of the
6:37
Speaker 1: information thus far points to a math killing event. So
6:41
Speaker 1: what do we know about math killing? Math killing the
6:44
Speaker 1: killing the three or more people during an event with
6:47
Speaker 1: no cooling off period, right, And what is the motive
6:51
Speaker 1: for math killing? Typically it's the revenge motive, which is
6:55
Speaker 1: I think why the police came out early. Things a
6:58
Speaker 1: targeted attack and oftentimes the initial stimulus for this uncontained
7:04
Speaker 1: rage of probably, like you're saying, Nancy, a white male,
7:09
Speaker 1: is a perception of some real or imagine shame producing
7:14
Speaker 1: injury or insult or disappointment that possibly one of the
7:21
Speaker 1: victims had had made whether it was a side comment
7:25
Speaker 1: to this individual, They may have known this individual or
7:30
Speaker 1: may not have. It could have been a stranger that
7:32
Speaker 1: they had made a comment to. And what we know
7:35
Speaker 1: about mass killers is they are often injustice collectors. Right,
7:39
Speaker 1: So this was just one more insult on top of
7:42
Speaker 1: many insults this person has experienced, and that person feels
7:47
Speaker 1: like vengeance is their own contribution. But I think there's
7:52
Speaker 1: some there are some things that we can say that
7:55
Speaker 1: I think the public can help. Right. Well, we know
7:58
Speaker 1: about mass killers is oftentimes big week. Right. What do
8:02
Speaker 1: we mean by week means they give information about their
8:06
Speaker 1: intended plans, whether that be via social media postings or
8:12
Speaker 1: via poetry or writings or drawings that other people may
8:17
Speaker 1: observe or may have observed before the attack occurred. And
8:21
Speaker 1: we do know that mass killers usually plan their activities,
8:26
Speaker 1: so I think there's some information that we can try
8:29
Speaker 1: to get from the public. We can talk about post
8:32
Speaker 1: offense behavior as well that other people may have observed
8:36
Speaker 1: and maybe they unknowingly didn't you know, connect either. So
8:41
Speaker 1: that's that's sort of my initial standing on this case. Wow,
8:46
Speaker 1: that's why Jencie from the fire hydrate right there. That
8:48
Speaker 1: was a lot of information, too much, too fast. I
8:51
Speaker 1: tried to take in everything you were saying. I say,
8:55
Speaker 1: one issue, and I'm sure you can explain this. I'm
8:58
Speaker 1: gonna go to doctor Jerry craw and joining US psychologist
9:02
Speaker 1: Professor Saint Leo University and author doctor Jorry. I hear
9:07
Speaker 1: what Kathleen Canning, mellow former FBI behavioral analysts, said that
9:14
Speaker 1: this activity could have been planned, okay, which means brought
9:21
Speaker 1: the knife and planned to lash out at one target.
9:26
Speaker 1: On the other hand, how does that jive with the
9:31
Speaker 1: theory that this was a rage killing, Because when you're
9:33
Speaker 1: in a rage, you're not really planning anything. Well, you
9:37
Speaker 1: have to understand rage. Okay, anger is different than rage.
9:43
Speaker 1: What brings about rage is what's called a paranoia shift.
9:48
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you know, crossing and canning mellow.
9:52
Speaker 1: I can't take the notes as quickly as you're talking. Okay,
9:56
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm back in law school. Okay, wait
9:59
Speaker 1: a minute, did you say what shifting? A paranoid shifting?
10:05
Speaker 1: Paranoid shifting shifting? Okay, everybody start taking notes because I
10:09
Speaker 1: cannot keep up with these two go go go go.
10:11
Speaker 1: Which she was also describing was the like, say, a
10:15
Speaker 1: narcissistic personality, they have a wounded ego. They will carry
10:19
Speaker 1: that and that festers. And that's where you know, if
10:23
Speaker 1: they get a target, and it can be somebody as
10:26
Speaker 1: simple as a looking across the bar and somebody just
10:31
Speaker 1: given you a bad look. If you're a narcissistic, you know, individual,
10:36
Speaker 1: that could wound your ego and you could become very violent.
10:38
Speaker 1: I mean, we've had bar fights and murders on that
10:42
Speaker 1: type of behavior and that response. You know. I want
10:46
Speaker 1: to also clarify the difference between an in cell, which
10:49
Speaker 1: Kathleen Kenny Mello mentioned involuntary celibate. That theory has come
10:54
Speaker 1: up several times. That is the killer, an involuntary celibate
10:58
Speaker 1: who basically sees the war world through the lens of misogyny,
11:02
Speaker 1: hating women. And you know it's really odd. My son
11:08
Speaker 1: and daughter, they're twins, were fifteen, and my son came
11:12
Speaker 1: home the other day and was talking about one of
11:15
Speaker 1: his friends who seems perfectly wonderful, and the friends said,
11:19
Speaker 1: all women are liars, they're all deceivers, because he basically
11:23
Speaker 1: got turned down a couple of times for Hoko translation homecoming,
11:27
Speaker 1: all right, So he's just a kid already thinking women
11:34
Speaker 1: are deceivers. And I've been researching in cells and they
11:39
Speaker 1: have names, stereotypical names, like someone is a Stacy, certain guys,
11:47
Speaker 1: jocks have their name, and it's just fueled with hatred.
11:53
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure this is an in cell since
11:56
Speaker 1: they're few and far between that actually commit murder or
12:00
Speaker 1: someone that, as doctor Jerry Crossen and Kathleen Kenny Melloe
12:04
Speaker 1: were pointing out, were and I'm using quoties, insulted, probably
12:08
Speaker 1: not really insulted, but in their minds they were insulted
12:12
Speaker 1: or rejected. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Jess goot Morgan
12:34
Speaker 1: joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
12:38
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit
12:41
Speaker 1: series Bodybags, with Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, you heard
12:45
Speaker 1: Kathleen and doctor Jory speaking. How does their analysis jibe
12:52
Speaker 1: with what we know about the scene. Well, from my perspective,
12:57
Speaker 1: what I'm taking away from this is that I believe
13:01
Speaker 1: that the individual showed up purposed they had this knife,
13:05
Speaker 1: because they're given a very specific description of this weapon.
13:09
Speaker 1: I think that they showed up with this weapon in
13:11
Speaker 1: hand in order to essentially commit a slaughter in here.
13:16
Speaker 1: So you think they showed up meaning to kill more
13:19
Speaker 1: than one person or meaning to kill the target. I
13:22
Speaker 1: think probably killing the target. And I think perhaps that
13:26
Speaker 1: everybody else was peripheral. But while they were there, I
13:29
Speaker 1: don't know if someone alerted to the presence. Joe Scott,
13:32
Speaker 1: wait a minute, hold on, I need your analysis. But
13:37
Speaker 1: to Nicholas Bogel Burrows joining me, National reporter, New York Times,
13:41
Speaker 1: they're on the scene, Nicholas, I want to analyze what
13:45
Speaker 1: Joe Scott just said. I don't see how the others
13:50
Speaker 1: could be alerted because, based on what the coroner said,
13:54
Speaker 1: some of them were asleep, some of them fought back,
13:59
Speaker 1: some of them obviously we're in bed at the time,
14:02
Speaker 1: so they had been alerted, they would have still been
14:05
Speaker 1: in bed, would they. I mean, are you getting any information?
14:08
Speaker 1: What can you tell us or refresh our recollection regarding
14:12
Speaker 1: where the victims were right? So this home in Moscow,
14:17
Speaker 1: it's just off campus. It's a three story home. There
14:21
Speaker 1: are two bedrooms on each floor, and what we've heard
14:25
Speaker 1: from the authorities is that all four victims were found
14:29
Speaker 1: on the second and third floors. We don't know exactly
14:32
Speaker 1: which bedrooms, and we know that the coroner has said
14:37
Speaker 1: that she believed that they were likely all sleeping at
14:40
Speaker 1: the time of the attack. She has also said that
14:43
Speaker 1: at least one of them appeared to have fought back.
14:45
Speaker 1: So what that means to me is that you know,
14:48
Speaker 1: they were all asleep when this attack occurred, but maybe
14:50
Speaker 1: one of them woke up during the attack and tried
14:53
Speaker 1: to defend themselves. But we know that there were the
14:58
Speaker 1: two surviving roommates elsewhere in the home, and that I'm
15:03
Speaker 1: sure you've talked about it a lot. They did not
15:06
Speaker 1: realize that this had happened until hours later. And so
15:09
Speaker 1: based on what Nicholas Bogglet Burrows is stating, Joe Scott,
15:13
Speaker 1: I don't think they were alerted because they were still
15:16
Speaker 1: in their beds. And plus you have to think about
15:18
Speaker 1: the structure of the split level. Nancy, that's really interesting.
15:23
Speaker 1: If we could get our control room to show. There's
15:26
Speaker 1: one particular picture, Jackie, if you could send that again
15:30
Speaker 1: right now, and it's really good, Joe Scott. It shows
15:34
Speaker 1: you can look at this house. And David Leroy joining me,
15:37
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Boise, Idaho, former Idaho Attorney General,
15:42
Speaker 1: former lieutenant governor, former prosecutor. You can find him at
15:46
Speaker 1: de leroy dot com. David, you're very familiar with this house.
15:52
Speaker 1: You've been in the house, and I noticed that, David,
15:56
Speaker 1: if you look at it from one angle, coming in
16:01
Speaker 1: on the floor where there's a sliding glass door, you
16:03
Speaker 1: don't really even see the bottom floor. If you come
16:06
Speaker 1: in from the first level, there's two ways to get
16:10
Speaker 1: to it. The first level you see the I guess
16:14
Speaker 1: call it the front door with the code you have
16:17
Speaker 1: to use to get in. I believe the killer came
16:21
Speaker 1: in through the second level, which was also ground level.
16:25
Speaker 1: I like that picture Halley where it shows level one,
16:29
Speaker 1: two and three. I mean the sliding glass door of
16:33
Speaker 1: the second level was actually at ground level, as was
16:37
Speaker 1: the first front door. But you commence a split level home,
16:42
Speaker 1: you come in from two vantage points, from two entrances,
16:47
Speaker 1: and I believe the killer never went downstairs to the
16:51
Speaker 1: I guess I would say basement level where the other
16:54
Speaker 1: two roommates were asleep. David Leroy, usually I'm coming to
16:59
Speaker 1: you for legal and analysis, but you've actually been here
17:02
Speaker 1: at this time. Could you describe any better? When I'm
17:05
Speaker 1: trying to say no, Nancy, your deduction is very logical.
17:09
Speaker 1: What is not always apparent in the photographs, but is
17:14
Speaker 1: likely in the one you're showing, is that this house
17:17
Speaker 1: is set against a hill, so it has with a
17:21
Speaker 1: rather steep incline, a front part structure rectangular in nature,
17:27
Speaker 1: and then a back part. It's almost two structures built together,
17:32
Speaker 1: and there are two ground level entries. It's just that
17:36
Speaker 1: there are on different levels. The second third level, the
17:39
Speaker 1: sliding goor you're talking about, being perhaps eight or ten
17:43
Speaker 1: feet higher than that. The lower level with the path
17:47
Speaker 1: that you call the front door. It is a split
17:50
Speaker 1: level residence, but almost two residences in the way it's constructed.
17:54
Speaker 1: I think as much to a lot of confusion. Nicholas
17:56
Speaker 1: Boggle brows with us. There are on the scene from
18:00
Speaker 1: New York Times. He is a national reporter for them. Nicholas,
18:05
Speaker 1: you really have to look at it from both angles
18:08
Speaker 1: to see what we're talking about. But I kept, you know,
18:12
Speaker 1: turning this around like a Rubio's cube until I saw
18:14
Speaker 1: the correct angle, because I guarantee you, Nicholas, this guy
18:20
Speaker 1: and it is a male enter through that sliding glass door.
18:24
Speaker 1: I don't believe he had the code. And I think
18:29
Speaker 1: he says this is a rage killing, very likely was
18:33
Speaker 1: ungloved and left fingerprints and that it doesn't match up.
18:38
Speaker 1: The prints don't match up to anybody or DNA in
18:43
Speaker 1: codas or aphis because he's not a convict. He's never
18:47
Speaker 1: been convicted of anything. Could you describe the structure of
18:50
Speaker 1: the home. Nicholas, Yeah, absolutely, I was there yesterday. It
18:54
Speaker 1: is very much on a fee hill. I think that
18:56
Speaker 1: is important. So you have the front door and the
18:59
Speaker 1: dry way um and that goes into the first floor.
19:02
Speaker 1: But then if you go up the another roadway to
19:06
Speaker 1: a kind of parking lot for an apartment complex nearby.
19:09
Speaker 1: You can see that there's this sliding glass door to
19:12
Speaker 1: the second floor, and also a kind of patio area
19:16
Speaker 1: where they seem to have a few a couch and
19:19
Speaker 1: a chair and seem to be a nice spot to
19:22
Speaker 1: hang out outside that second second floor sliding door. Um.
19:26
Speaker 1: So I think you know, the police have not said
19:30
Speaker 1: anything about where the killer might have entered. Um, but
19:34
Speaker 1: obviously those are those are two obvious places where that
19:37
Speaker 1: could have happened. Um. And you know, all of this
19:40
Speaker 1: is happening just in this in this very tight knit
19:43
Speaker 1: college town area. Right under you know, a water tower
19:45
Speaker 1: with the University of Idaho logo. Um, It's it's all
19:49
Speaker 1: just right in this kind of central area next to campus. Well,
19:52
Speaker 1: I think it does tell me something about the killer
19:54
Speaker 1: just got Morgan. Everybody, Again, this is not High Tea
19:58
Speaker 1: at windsor Castle Jump in, Joe Scott. It is telling
20:02
Speaker 1: me something because if the perp did not know the
20:05
Speaker 1: code to the front door and came in through the
20:08
Speaker 1: sliding glass door, that tells me he was tangentially involved
20:13
Speaker 1: into victims lives. If we accept that the killer is
20:17
Speaker 1: in one of their spheres, likely since we've got three
20:21
Speaker 1: dead females and one dead male, likely in one of
20:25
Speaker 1: the three female victims' lives, but he wasn't close enough
20:29
Speaker 1: to know the code jump in. David, you need to
20:35
Speaker 1: recall the intimate setting in this small college town, and
20:39
Speaker 1: if the profilers are correct, if Kathleen's predictions and the
20:44
Speaker 1: other speculations from various sources are correct, it should be
20:49
Speaker 1: possible in a town of twenty five thousand people, in
20:53
Speaker 1: a campus of eleven thousand, five hundred, all geographically very contiguous,
20:59
Speaker 1: to see somebody of that profile who suddenly is left town,
21:04
Speaker 1: who suddenly has changed their routine. I'm very hopeful if
21:08
Speaker 1: these profiles are correct, that though we may not have
21:12
Speaker 1: analyzed this scene evidence to some particular person, some of
21:17
Speaker 1: these tangential things or some of these leaks that hopefully
21:20
Speaker 1: will be developed, can perhaps very swiftly lead to a
21:25
Speaker 1: suspect meeting those profiles. And another thing that I think
21:28
Speaker 1: is news is there's an incredible amount of resource. There's
21:32
Speaker 1: an unprecedented amount of resources being applied by law enforcement,
21:37
Speaker 1: by Idaho standards to this case. The Moscow PG has
21:41
Speaker 1: twenty four officers and they're all working on it. Four detectives.
21:45
Speaker 1: The Idaho State Police Department, out of voice, has detailed
21:50
Speaker 1: their mobile forensic unit up there and has twenty investigators available,
21:54
Speaker 1: And significantly, the FBI, out of three or four field
21:58
Speaker 1: offices and a laborage or in Virginia, has forty four
22:01
Speaker 1: agents available to work on this case as well. So
22:04
Speaker 1: if the profilers are correct, somebody will pop up and
22:08
Speaker 1: perhaps we can marry up the scene evidence to that
22:11
Speaker 1: person in the near future. Everybody, I want you to
22:14
Speaker 1: take a listen to a theory I've developed so far,
22:18
Speaker 1: and please jump in. I believe this is going to
22:22
Speaker 1: be a white male local, just as in Delphi. Now
22:27
Speaker 1: we know that day there was a huge football game,
22:30
Speaker 1: and in that stadium, which holds sixteen thousand people, the
22:34
Speaker 1: seats were packed. But if we go with the premises
22:38
Speaker 1: was targeted, that large group of people would be irrelevant
22:43
Speaker 1: to who this killer is. In other words, it's not
22:45
Speaker 1: increasing the suspect pool. If we believe that this was
22:49
Speaker 1: targeted by someone within one of the girl's spheres, local
22:53
Speaker 1: white male, likely with cuts, bruises, and scratches that cannot
22:58
Speaker 1: account for that time of the killing, someone that one
23:03
Speaker 1: of the girls knew at school, or work, someone that
23:07
Speaker 1: did not show up for school or work following it.
23:11
Speaker 1: Someone connected to them but not convicted, someone that would
23:18
Speaker 1: own a camping, military hiking type knife, someone on foot,
23:29
Speaker 1: not a peeping tom, because this goes beyond the violence
23:34
Speaker 1: we would normally get from a peeping tom that graduates
23:38
Speaker 1: to a greater crime. With no evidence so far of
23:42
Speaker 1: a stalker. Okay, we would have gotten that from emails
23:47
Speaker 1: or texts or phone calls. We don't have that. That's
23:50
Speaker 1: who I think the killer is going to be. And
23:53
Speaker 1: isn't it true? Nicholas Bogel Burrows joining us in the
23:56
Speaker 1: New York Times. Police have ruled out any connection between
24:01
Speaker 1: the skinning of a dog a couple of miles away
24:05
Speaker 1: prior to the murders, and three other stab victims from
24:11
Speaker 1: two stabbing incidents. All those have been ruled not connected.
24:17
Speaker 1: Is that correct, Nicholas right. There's been so much speculation
24:20
Speaker 1: around this case, of course, that the police has spent
24:22
Speaker 1: a lot of the time in their public statements trying
24:24
Speaker 1: to dispel these rumors. So, like you said, there's been
24:27
Speaker 1: m cases elsewhere, I believe one in Oregon that the
24:31
Speaker 1: police have had to come out and say we don't
24:33
Speaker 1: see anything that leads us to believe there's a connection.
24:35
Speaker 1: And they've also spent a lot of time, as you mentioned,
24:39
Speaker 1: with the death of a dog elsewhere. They believe that
24:43
Speaker 1: that was caused by, you know, another animal. They've also
24:48
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time talking about suspects that they
24:51
Speaker 1: have apparently ruled out. So there was a man in
24:55
Speaker 1: a hoodie at a food truck that two of the victims,
24:58
Speaker 1: Mattie and Kayley, went to on the night of the attacks.
25:02
Speaker 1: And you know, the kind of internet sleuth community of
25:06
Speaker 1: course has has has tried to pin down, you know,
25:09
Speaker 1: who could have done this, But in doing so, they've
25:12
Speaker 1: they've kind of put out a lot of names that
25:16
Speaker 1: that the police has ended up saying, you know, we
25:18
Speaker 1: don't we don't think that person is connected to this.
25:20
Speaker 1: And so that that person was among them of the
25:23
Speaker 1: person who gave two of the victims a ride home, uh,
25:26
Speaker 1: you know, to the to surviving roommates. And and there's
25:29
Speaker 1: about five more people that the police have come out
25:30
Speaker 1: and said we don't believe they have a connection to this. Guys,
25:33
Speaker 1: a piece of the puzzle that may become critical. Take
25:37
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut sixty five Kana Whitworth. In
25:41
Speaker 1: a case like this, though, where the victims and the
25:45
Speaker 1: survivors were all so active on social media, is that
25:49
Speaker 1: helpful to the investigation to learn about them and their
25:52
Speaker 1: friends and their and their lives. Well, I think it's
25:55
Speaker 1: both helpful and it also just enlarges the investigation overall.
25:59
Speaker 1: It just has more people for us to try and
26:01
Speaker 1: contact and try and get information. On the evening in question,
26:04
Speaker 1: then just be able to do a full analysis in
26:07
Speaker 1: review of the case straight out to special guests joining us.
26:10
Speaker 1: Kathleen Kenning Mello, a former FBI unit chief for thirty
26:14
Speaker 1: one years, ten of those assigned to the FBI Behavioral
26:18
Speaker 1: Analysis Unit now and strike to North Carolina. Kathleen, what
26:23
Speaker 1: can we learn from social media about these victims and
26:29
Speaker 1: the potential perpet writer. Absolutely, the police and FBI investigators
26:34
Speaker 1: are going through all of their social media with a
26:37
Speaker 1: fine tooth comb, and I would go back weeks or
26:40
Speaker 1: even months trying to examine identify the people within their network,
26:47
Speaker 1: try to identify their patterns over the last couple of weeks,
26:50
Speaker 1: and people that they have encountered. And you would imagine
26:54
Speaker 1: this is such a data driven sort of investigation. As
26:59
Speaker 1: well in terms of cell phone data and other ring
27:02
Speaker 1: camera videos CCTV. This is why it's taking a while
27:07
Speaker 1: to go through all that digital evidence because it requires expertise, right,
27:11
Speaker 1: we need computer forensic examiners to go through a lot
27:14
Speaker 1: of this data to recover missing data from a lot
27:18
Speaker 1: of the devices. It takes time and it takes expertise.
27:22
Speaker 1: So I understand the frustrations, but it certainly is necessary
27:27
Speaker 1: for the investigators to go through all of their social
27:30
Speaker 1: media contacts and all of their phones or all of
27:34
Speaker 1: their photographs in order to try the piece together and
27:37
Speaker 1: maybe identify this person. Right, I mean, I'm curious as
27:42
Speaker 1: to what they will be looking for time story he's
28:00
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Jessica Morgan. I would look to see
28:05
Speaker 1: whoever had friended them, who was on their snapchat map,
28:10
Speaker 1: who was snapping with them. There's so many things to
28:14
Speaker 1: look at, who had liked or disliked something, or unfriended them.
28:19
Speaker 1: There's so many levels of seeming intimacy online that's not real.
28:26
Speaker 1: And I guarantee you if this was somebody in their sphere,
28:30
Speaker 1: they're looking at their Insta, they're looking at their story
28:33
Speaker 1: as it's called. I believe that may hold a key.
28:37
Speaker 1: Yeah it could, but you know, we got to consider
28:40
Speaker 1: one other thing. This is unlike any other kind of
28:42
Speaker 1: community that this could have happened in. We're talking about
28:45
Speaker 1: a university community. These kids that populate the student body,
28:50
Speaker 1: they're already looking towards Thanksgiving break, okay, and then you
28:55
Speaker 1: have this horrific event that occurs. And even by the
29:00
Speaker 1: admission of the president of the university, he said that
29:04
Speaker 1: some kids might not come back. Well, one of the
29:06
Speaker 1: problems this poses for the local police is the fact
29:10
Speaker 1: that these kids have left Nancy. And you know better
29:12
Speaker 1: than anybody there is something that you get one of
29:15
Speaker 1: the eye eye interview with the individuals where you're sitting
29:18
Speaker 1: across the table from them, and you can cue them.
29:21
Speaker 1: You can get illicit information from them that there's a
29:26
Speaker 1: potential they're going to miss something here, because even those
29:29
Speaker 1: individuals that didn't have direct contact with these poor victims,
29:33
Speaker 1: they might see something or they might have heard something
29:36
Speaker 1: that now has lost all contexts. We're now two weeks
29:40
Speaker 1: down range from this. These kids have gone home, some
29:43
Speaker 1: of them have not come back. They've offered for them
29:47
Speaker 1: to take online classes. That's no fault of the university.
29:50
Speaker 1: That's just the reality, and this is what this is
29:53
Speaker 1: a big obstacle. I think that the police are facing
29:56
Speaker 1: in this case, guys, that would explain if the killer
30:00
Speaker 1: left immediately after the killing, you could all be chalked
30:04
Speaker 1: up to leaving out of fear lost in the shuffle,
30:09
Speaker 1: maybe never returning. This is a very transient community. People
30:14
Speaker 1: come in and out, depending on do they graduate, do
30:17
Speaker 1: they lay out a quarter, are they leaving for work?
30:20
Speaker 1: Are they going to come back? Are they picking up
30:22
Speaker 1: summer classes. That entirely compounds the difficulty of trying to
30:29
Speaker 1: locate the killer as of right now, no motive, no
30:34
Speaker 1: murder weapon, no suspect. On top of it all, we
30:39
Speaker 1: are learning that the families are rankling the families of
30:43
Speaker 1: the victims because of lack of information. Taking listen our
30:47
Speaker 1: cut sixty three, our friend Jonathan Vigliotti. Police are keeping
30:50
Speaker 1: details they do have under lock and key, including audio
30:54
Speaker 1: of the nine one one call, the names of the
30:56
Speaker 1: surviving roommates, and the names of those at the house
30:59
Speaker 1: who spoke to dispatchers during the call. Citing case integrity,
31:03
Speaker 1: The lack of information is a pain point for Kaylee.
31:06
Speaker 1: Consolves is already grieving family. We all want to play
31:09
Speaker 1: a part in helping, and we can't play a part
31:12
Speaker 1: if we don't have any real financial information to work from.
31:15
Speaker 1: Detectives did dispel rumors that the victims were tied up
31:19
Speaker 1: and address claims that consolves how does stalker? So far
31:23
Speaker 1: we have not been able to corroborate it, but we're
31:26
Speaker 1: not done looking into that piece of information. Oh well,
31:29
Speaker 1: the roommates have been named, isn't it Dylan Mortenson and
31:33
Speaker 1: Bethany Funk? Aren't there? Aren't those the names Nicholas, Those
31:38
Speaker 1: names are out there. I'm not sure that that's come
31:40
Speaker 1: from the police, but I know that the victims had
31:44
Speaker 1: posted on social media with those two students. I would
31:47
Speaker 1: be curious. Doctor Jory Crawls and joining me psychologist faculty
31:51
Speaker 1: Saint Leo University and author of Operation Soos. Doctor Jory,
31:56
Speaker 1: do you believe the killer acted as a thoughtical serial
32:01
Speaker 1: killer such as BTK. I mean, there's a big difference
32:05
Speaker 1: and a mass killer or spree killer and a serial killer.
32:10
Speaker 1: Do you think he would have thought to take a
32:12
Speaker 1: trophy with him or was he hastily leaving the scene
32:18
Speaker 1: of the slaughter. I think he was hastily leaving as
32:21
Speaker 1: a mass killer, not a serial killer. I would even
32:25
Speaker 1: venture to say that he's left the area, and I
32:27
Speaker 1: would say that he probably left right after that, got
32:30
Speaker 1: out of the area. Okay, we know there was no theft,
32:33
Speaker 1: we know there was no sex assault. We know now
32:36
Speaker 1: that the victims were not bound or gagged in any way.
32:40
Speaker 1: I want to follow up on the fact that the
32:43
Speaker 1: families are upset they're not getting enough information. Nicholas Boggle
32:47
Speaker 1: burros with me, National reporter of New York Times. It's
32:50
Speaker 1: not the police duty or law enforcement to spoon feed
32:53
Speaker 1: us the media information. But regarding the victims families, that's
32:59
Speaker 1: a whole another cana. Worms. You have to stay in
33:04
Speaker 1: touch with the victims families. What are we learning about
33:07
Speaker 1: police refusal to release info to victims families? Right, Well,
33:12
Speaker 1: all indications have been that they have received, uh, not
33:15
Speaker 1: much more information than has been provided publicly. UM. Kayley's
33:19
Speaker 1: family has has spoken about UM. You know, I think
33:23
Speaker 1: her her older sister, Olivia Gonsalves, has really kind of
33:26
Speaker 1: turned into an investigator herself. She was going through, you know,
33:30
Speaker 1: her sister's phone account and looking at who she had
33:33
Speaker 1: called UM. She was looking at these these this live
33:37
Speaker 1: stream from the food truck before just about anyone. UM,
33:40
Speaker 1: and you know she's she's really gone into investigator mode
33:43
Speaker 1: and is intent on solving the murder of her own sister. UM.
33:48
Speaker 1: And I think the their father, UM, Stephen Gonzala Gonsalves
33:55
Speaker 1: has said recently, UM that you know, they are really
33:59
Speaker 1: not getting much more informed than the public and are
34:02
Speaker 1: expecting fewer updates as this dragged on to David Leroy,
34:06
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Idaho, who is intimately familiar
34:10
Speaker 1: with this home, who has been in the home and
34:12
Speaker 1: knows the area very well. David, we also are told
34:16
Speaker 1: by police they're convinced that this was a targeted attack.
34:20
Speaker 1: This was a burglary gone wrong or a rape attempt
34:24
Speaker 1: gone wrong, but targeted. So that leads me to the question,
34:30
Speaker 1: how do they know it's a targeted attack? They're not
34:33
Speaker 1: releasing that information, but think about it was one targeted,
34:37
Speaker 1: two all four most likely one? Why would they say
34:42
Speaker 1: one person was targeted? Were their wounds different? Was their
34:46
Speaker 1: body treated differently than the others? Did they have more
34:50
Speaker 1: wounds than the others for instance? Was their body staged?
34:54
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is was a blanket
34:57
Speaker 1: or a sheet pulled up over their face. Any movement
35:01
Speaker 1: of the same post boredom is staging. Why do you think,
35:06
Speaker 1: David Leroy, You've handled plenty of Marber cases that police
35:10
Speaker 1: are insisting this was targeted against one of these victims.
35:14
Speaker 1: The word targeted became initially associated with this homicide that
35:19
Speaker 1: they're now calling the King Road homicides very very early.
35:23
Speaker 1: In fact, it was perhaps within almost minutes of when
35:29
Speaker 1: the first dialogue began that this began to be called
35:33
Speaker 1: the targeted killing. I think they have stayed with that
35:38
Speaker 1: partially because the original focus on just one household and
35:43
Speaker 1: four people and utterly shocking events in a small community
35:48
Speaker 1: appeared to be unlikely to repeat itself to the general
35:52
Speaker 1: public in any near term future, And perhaps it is
35:57
Speaker 1: entirely consistent now as they continue to use that with
36:01
Speaker 1: the profiling that we're discussing on the program today. I
36:05
Speaker 1: don't think they know yet, or at least they haven't
36:09
Speaker 1: indicated yet that it was targeted to any one person,
36:12
Speaker 1: or that it was any more targeted than we have
36:17
Speaker 1: already learned. On the other hand, it remains something that
36:24
Speaker 1: is utterly unlikely to pose a general threat to the
36:27
Speaker 1: community of Moscow, as we have discussion until the killer's call,
36:31
Speaker 1: I think that there is a threat to Kathleen Kenny mellow.
36:35
Speaker 1: Why do you believe police have insisted this is targeting?
36:39
Speaker 1: I mean, David Leroy seems to suggest that they labeled
36:43
Speaker 1: it as targeted at the get go, so now they're
36:45
Speaker 1: stuck with their own words. I disagree. Yeah, I think
36:48
Speaker 1: it goes back to the motivation, right, and we're considering
36:52
Speaker 1: the motivation, but as we've discussed today as a revenge motive,
36:57
Speaker 1: so that seems to me it directly into some kind
37:01
Speaker 1: of a target, right. The offender wants to revenge against
37:04
Speaker 1: one or more persons. We don't know at this point
37:08
Speaker 1: whether it was one or more victims that were the
37:12
Speaker 1: targets of this attack, but that it seems logical to
37:16
Speaker 1: me that this revenge was demoted and one or more
37:20
Speaker 1: of those victims was the target of the attack. Just
37:22
Speaker 1: Scott Morgant, doesn't make sense to me that all four
37:25
Speaker 1: are the target. It would make more sense that one
37:27
Speaker 1: is a target. And if so, let's just follow this
37:31
Speaker 1: through to its logical conclusion. How would they determine this
37:37
Speaker 1: was targeted? What could be different about one of the bodies,
37:41
Speaker 1: the level of violence involved specifically, you know, and a
37:45
Speaker 1: lot has been made of this, you know, because the
37:47
Speaker 1: term multiple has been used, multiple staff wounds. I think
37:50
Speaker 1: the coroner let that slip out. To be quite honest
37:52
Speaker 1: with you, I was, I was too, Joe Scott, I
37:55
Speaker 1: was stunned. Is that what you're gonna say that? The
37:57
Speaker 1: coroner and the lab. Now, let me remind everybody this
37:59
Speaker 1: corner is not a medical doctor. She is not a
38:03
Speaker 1: medical examiner. She has a four year degree And what
38:08
Speaker 1: did I tell you? It was? Joe Scott was in
38:10
Speaker 1: English and then a jd. She has a lawyer's degree.
38:18
Speaker 1: She's a registered nurse, also a history as a registered nurse.
38:23
Speaker 1: That said, take a listen to our cut forty six.
38:26
Speaker 1: This is a county coroner, Kathy Mabbot. Most of them
38:30
Speaker 1: had just like one that was the lethal stab wound? Yes,
38:36
Speaker 1: can you describe what that one might have been? Fatal
38:39
Speaker 1: ones were to the chest area or the upper body area?
38:43
Speaker 1: Were there? And I only ask this because it sometimes
38:45
Speaker 1: determines what kind of a crime this was a crime
38:48
Speaker 1: of passion, a random crime, a fight, a struggle. Was
38:52
Speaker 1: there were any of them slashed? Were any of their
38:56
Speaker 1: next cut or were these all puncture ones. Well, it's
39:00
Speaker 1: a pretty large night, so it's really hard to call
39:02
Speaker 1: them puncture wounds. And they were definitely stabbings. And I
39:07
Speaker 1: mean it has to be somebody that's pretty angry in
39:12
Speaker 1: order to stab for people to death. As a county
39:15
Speaker 1: coroner speaking to our friends are writtenw's nations Joe Scott,
39:18
Speaker 1: I like you was very taken aback that the coroner
39:21
Speaker 1: issued the statement, gave an interview during an ongoing investigation.
39:27
Speaker 1: But did you hear her words? Most of them had
39:31
Speaker 1: her words, just like one that was a lethal stab wound.
39:37
Speaker 1: Most of them, not all of them, had one lethal
39:41
Speaker 1: stab wound. Decipher Joe Scott. Well, yeah, and then you
39:45
Speaker 1: factor in this idea of defensive ones, because you know,
39:48
Speaker 1: defensive wounds can come in any number. I was one
39:51
Speaker 1: body treated differently than the other bodies. Why do we
39:54
Speaker 1: think this was targeted? Yeah? Well, for me personally, if
39:57
Speaker 1: you're asking me, if I could examine the bodies, would
40:00
Speaker 1: take a look and see who had sustained the most trauma,
40:03
Speaker 1: because you know, going to what doctor Jory said, this
40:06
Speaker 1: is an indication of rage, perhaps, you know, And I'm
40:09
Speaker 1: I'm not a psychotherapist, but you know when you see
40:11
Speaker 1: somebody that attempts to really destroy somebody with a knife,
40:15
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication of purpose. Nicholas Buggle Brus,
40:18
Speaker 1: They're on the same national reporter in New York Times.
40:20
Speaker 1: What is the mood on campus right now as some
40:24
Speaker 1: students return. So yesterday was the first day back for
40:28
Speaker 1: students after this had all happened. Many of them had
40:30
Speaker 1: left early for Thanksgiving break following this tragedy. And so
40:36
Speaker 1: I spoke with a lot of students yesterday, and many
40:38
Speaker 1: of them are afraid. They're texting their roommates and you know,
40:41
Speaker 1: making sure that they're coming back if they are, so
40:43
Speaker 1: that they're not alone. They're staying inside at night, they're
40:47
Speaker 1: walking in pairs. One woman told me she even was
40:50
Speaker 1: planning to get pepper spray for Christmas this year as
40:53
Speaker 1: a gift. So, you know, a lot of them were
40:57
Speaker 1: grateful for the police around campus. Multiple people pointed that
41:01
Speaker 1: out to me. But they are all just getting flooded
41:04
Speaker 1: with colds from their parents, from friends checking in on
41:07
Speaker 1: them at all times. Sure tip line two zero eight
41:11
Speaker 1: eight eight three seven zero five four repeat two zero
41:16
Speaker 1: eight eight eight three seven zero five four Goodbye friend,