Latest / Everyday Ancestral with James Barry / Modern Food is Failing Us — Dr. Bill Schindler on Ancestral Eating, Industry Deception, and the Healing Power of Fermentation - Part 2

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Modern Food is Failing Us — Dr. Bill Schindler on Ancestral Eating, Industry Deception, and the Healing Power of Fermentation - Part 2 · Everyday Ancestral with James Barry

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Welcome back friends to part two of my conversation with Dr. Bill Schindler.
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In part one, we talked about relationships, community, and how modern life has stripped
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away the deeper connections our ancestors had around food.
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Now we're getting into the real hands-on knowledge, how food preparation literally transformed
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human evolution and why the way we prepare our food today is failing us.
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Bill breaks down the lost art of whole animal eating and why our ancestors thrived on organ meats,
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fat, and blood. And we even touch on the big question, are humans adapting to modern food or is
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our species slowly breaking down because of it? This episode is packed with game-changing insights
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that will completely shift how you think about eating. So let's dish it up.
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What should we take from the past and that we should be replicating now?
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If we're going to focus on one thing is not the what but the how. And this is what I mean.
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One of the questions I get all the time after I get them speaking or people come for a class
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or whatever is okay, should humans eat bread? Should adult humans consume dairy? And those questions
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are actually silly. I understand why people are asking them, but it's the wrong question,
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right? Because for several reasons, one is when you say bread to me, you mean wonder bread,
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or do you mean a loaf of wild, slow, long, fermented, sourdough bread? They are completely
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different foods. And I have completely different answers for the two of them. When you say dairy,
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do you mean ultra-pasturized skin milk? Or do you mean raw fermented dairy from this amazing farm
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down the road? Completely different foods. And I have completely different answers for them.
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When I say how, what I mean is I don't like the question, what should I eat?
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I like the question, how should I eat? And I like the question, should I consume dairy? I like the
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question, how should I consume dairy? So raw fermented dairy, completely different food. In fact,
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raw fermented dairy is replicating all of the biological processes that went on inside of our
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bodies when we were infant humans perfectly designed to consume dairy. Firm and
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inventables are replicating a lot of the natural biological processes that are going on inside
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of things like room and animals when they're eating tough vegetable materials. Like that process,
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process that our ancestors have figured out over literally millions of years of experimentation
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to make food as safe and absolutely nourishing as it can possibly be should form the basis,
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the foundation of everything that we're eating. To more directly answer the what part,
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I have very strong feelings and I think we're very much in line with with what we should be eating,
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what should form the foundation. When we introduced animals into our diets three and a half
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million years ago, we did so in the form just meet a little bit of marrow because we're scavenging.
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At two million years ago, we see our biggest jump in body and brain size and it correlates with two
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major technological innovations. One is fire, which is very powerful, but the other is hunting
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technology. For the first time ever, a two million years ago, we could take animals down at will
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and because we were the hunter, we had first access to every part of that animal. That
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every part of that animal means not just the meat that was left behind by other predators
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for a million and a half years earlier, but the entirety of that animal, the most nutrient
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dense by all available parts, the blood, the fat, and the organs. It is when we introduced the
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entire animal into our diets that we see the most massive explosion in body and brain size that
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we've ever seen in our evolutionary past. I am confident it's because of that massive influx of
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incredibly bio-available nutrient dense foods. Whole animal, not meat. Whole animal should be the
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basis of our diets 100 percent. Define whole animal from your perspective. Let me just back up to
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spend a little more time on that. I'm going to give one very quick example because what I would like
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people to understand is our ancestors introduced meat to our diets at about three and a half
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million years ago because of the first technology we've ever invented with something called the
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LeMet Way tool. There's a very simple flake that came off of a larger rock. The same time these
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tools are being made, we start seeing evidence of butchering for the first time, which means on bones,
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we find marks made by these tools that we know for sure, we've done a ton of experiments, we know
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these are not marks and carnivores or even scavengers from teeth or anything. They're made by stone
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tools. We know they're making the tools, we know they're butchering, or pretty calm enough,
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they're not hunting. What they're doing is they're allowing nasty, crazy large animals bigger and
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nastier than modern day lions. Things like saber-toothed cats should take down other animals on the
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savanna. When predators take down animals, the first thing they do is rip them apart and gourd
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themselves on a blood to fat in the organs, especially with larger animals, which they're not going to
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consume in one meal. They eat the most nutrient-dense bioavailable parts first, then they go off and
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digest their meal. When they leave, animals that are perfectly designed to scavenge come in and
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start feasting on the leftover flesh in relative safety until that predator is digested, that meal
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comes back to eat again. You have this huge animal on the savanna, you have hyenas and buzzards and
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things like that, or at that time, ancestors to those animals sitting there eating the meat,
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but we're sitting there at three and a half feet tall as full-grown modern humans with males
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like this and teeth like this. We can't be a part of this party, but as soon as they make this stone
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tool, everything changes because this stone tool is razor sharp and incredibly durable. In fact,
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it's sharper and more durable than the teeth and the claws on the hyenas and the buzzards. They
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can run in with this tool and start hacking off huge pieces of meat. During that same period of
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relative safety, then bring these hunks of meat back and share it with their family. They
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can enjoy it. That's the kind of introduction of meat into their diet at that time. We also have
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found bones at the same time, long bones that were intentionally crushed open for marrow. We don't
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know how much this made a difference in their diet. We don't know if this meant they're eating meat
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every day or eating meat once a month, but what we do know is they introduce meat and marrow into
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their diet at about really about 3.4 million years ago. What we also know is we don't see much
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biological change between 3.4 million years ago with 2 million years ago. There isn't this major
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jump in brain size because a little bit of meat in their diet or they get a lot bigger. They
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stay pretty similar. There are some changes, but nothing statistically significant. The biggest
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change happens 2 million years ago when we introduce fire and I think even more importantly,
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we introduce hunting. When we introduce hunting, that means not only can we take an animal down at will,
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like we can choose, okay, we like that animal. We take that animal down, but most importantly,
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we're now sitting with the entirety of that animal in front of us. We've become the predators. We're
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not the scavengers anymore. We're the predators. This is the first time we've become hunter-gatherers.
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We were scavengers before that. We become hunter-gatherers. Because of that, we can now feast
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on the blood, the fat, and the organs, and then also eat the meat. That's the biggest difference
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in my mind. When I say whole animal, that's the whole animal approach. This was such a big deal
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that not only do we see the appearance of species like homo erectus and homo regaster, which
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have much bigger brains than the previous counterparts, but if you're tracking their brain growth within
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the same species over a million years after that, it's increasing as it goes. They appear larger
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and then their brains are actually increasing in size. Powerful. But what I'd also say about this,
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and I know I need to bring this back to your earlier question, but that whole animal approach
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is not only, essentially, correct. You're eating the entire animal, and we've done so for so long.
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The fact that we're only eating chicken breast now or rib eyes now is a new phenomenon, or
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some would say a step too far back to three and a half million years ago. But it also checks all
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these other incredible boxes that I think are very important in our diets. It is more ethical
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to eat the entire animal. Right now, in the modern American grocery store, 55% of a pig and 50%
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of a cow by weight end up on the shelves. That means to the typical modern American consumer,
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when we kill an animal, only half of it is available to go into our diets, which doesn't sit
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right with me. When you look at hunter-gatherer groups, especially people like the Sami in Scandinavia,
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when an animal is killed, like a reindeer there, they're eating upwards of 96, 97, 98% of that animal
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is used to nourish themselves and their families and their community. That sits a lot better
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than me from an ethical perspective. From a sustainability perspective, same sort of thing, right?
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You know, we have all these, some of them accurate, some of them not so accurate,
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calculations on, okay, well, to raise this cow, it takes this much food and this much water,
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and you only get this much in return. Well, all those calculations are thrown to hell when
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when you actually are eating the entire animal, like all of those calculations immediately over
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and I change without even doing anything different with how you raise that animal or fed that
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animal, just how you've used that animal. And then the final piece, which I think is also very
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important, is the economic part of it, right? These parts of the animal, the liver, heart, kidney,
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spleen, blood, fat are a lot cheaper than rib eyes and filet, right? So from the consumer perspective,
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it's more economical, but also for the rancher or the farmer, you have a small rancher, a small
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farmer doing an incredible job raising these animals, caring for these animals, you have an
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incredible abattoir that's harvesting them in a butcher that's cutting them properly and you can
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now, you now have a market for putting more money directly into their pocket for the same
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work they're already doing. I mean, that is a win-win all the way around. Everything changes
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with a full whole animal approach. You know, though, it does bring up something really important,
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and I think it's something you're bringing back in the modern Stone Age kitchen, but with the
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homogenization of our diets, we're losing skills as well, right? So a lot of slaughterhouses don't
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have people that know how to slaughter an animal and retain those old animal parts, right? Because
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that takes more money, that takes more retention of employees, you know what I mean? So I don't want
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to leave the topic of ancestral eating because I want to keep delving into that because I know you
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have more to offer in that, but what's coming up for me is a question I think that a lot of people
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wonder, which is we're talking about ancestral eating and how we've changed over the years,
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and we look at that 300,000 years ago and we go, oh, well, we improve there, and we're looking at
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our current times, we're going to know what we're devolving to degree, right? But are we? Is it
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more just that our bodies have to catch up to this modern food or is it, are we just completely
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messing things up? When you look at evolutionary change through time, evolution literally just means
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change. That's it. Evolution, the definition of evolution is just change. We have this teleological
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approach to evolution, most of us, and teleological means directed. And it's a false idea, the idea
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that, oh, we're just evolving in the way we were meant to evolve. It requires us to think outside
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of ourselves and the higher powers and all this, but this idea that if we were to do it all over again,
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we'd be in the same spot in 2024 because it's following it. We have sort of these primitive ancestors,
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and they go through these different steps, and then all of a sudden we become human, and then humans
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are here, and then we're in these little villages, and then we create these tribes, and then these
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chiefdoms, and then these city states, and then these nations, and all of these things, and
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hierarchy, and all of these agricultural is supposed to happen, and all of these things are supposed
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to happen to result in us, and we're the ultimate piece of this. That is the exacts called
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teleology. It's the exact thinking that evolution is directed towards some sort of goal.
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The only thing that evolution is doing is creating change, change in our gene pool over time,
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so that when something in our environment changes, whether it's global warming, or whether it's
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this new environment, or these new resources, we have to pull from our gene pool, the variation
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there to produce members of our species that can survive in that new environment, and produce
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viable offspring in that new environment. When that happens, awesome, we survive, and when that
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breaks down, we become extinct. The key is that we're producing this variation in our gene pool,
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and knowing that we're always adapting to the given environment at that specific time.
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With that said, there's been a lot of changes. I can definitely make the case to say,
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Homo erectus at 1.8 million years ago in eastern Africa was perfectly adapted to the
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environment that they're in. Great, and they're amazing, and they're strong, and they have these
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fairly big brains, and they do all these wonderful things, and that's great. But in that environment,
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it makes sense. If we pick them up and stuff them in the middle of New York City right now,
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they become extinct. They couldn't probably physically, definitely not culturally survive
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in that environment. We're faced now, and I do have the same question. I think it's well at my time.
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All this processed food, all these changes in our diets, all this getting rid of all these wonderful
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microflora in our guts, and all of the cell phone radiating, all these things that are happening
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all the time, and the fact that many of us are not even touching the earth anymore
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ever because we're insulated in these different ways, are there members of our species
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that are becoming perfectly adapted to that new environment?
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Yes, you absolutely understand what I'm asking here, because it's too a degree. I think about
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this, sometimes I'm like, okay, is glyphosate bad, or have we just not adapted to it?
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We just not there yet, and the future is what's going to define their health,
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going to be that they've adapted to it. You did say something very interesting. The purpose
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of our species is to propagate, and so maybe a sign of whether your food systems is working,
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or your lifestyle is working, is whether can your population populate, and we are seeing a huge
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decline in people's ability to get naturally pregnant. That is probably an indicator that whatever
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these modern methods are, that maybe they're not working, and they're not conducive towards
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humanity's longevity. One of the definitions of domestication is that you take a species out of
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its natural environment and put it in a culturally created environment, and it within that culturally
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created environment, that species genetically changes, in response to, when I say culture created,
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I mean like human created environment, and over time that species genetically changes in response,
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quite often, to the point where it can no longer survive on its own back in the wild. So an example
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would be we take these wild plants out of the environment, we start caring for them, we start
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watering them, we start feeding them, we start protecting them from other competing plants,
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maybe we keep other animals away from eating it before it grows, and put a fence around it, whatever.
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That's domestication. Same thing with animals, we take these wild animals, eventually they're
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domesticated animals. That means the environment that they're responding to from an evolutionary
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perspective has changed. It's no longer this wild environment, I mean certainly wild environments change,
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we have an asteroid hit, we have a climatic change, whatever it is, those are changes in the natural
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environment, but now we've put them in an environment that we're controlling, and they're responding
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to that, and genetically changing over time. I get asked, well, okay, what is the first
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domesticated plant? Well, I'm not confident, right now we're looking at probably, probably wasn't
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wheat in the fertile crescent, it's probably maize, or even potatoes right now are kind of vying for
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some of the first plant domesticated animals. Well, most of the domesticated animals we think about
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from a farm started to become domesticated somewhere between nine, 10,000 years ago, so things like
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cattle and that sort of thing, right? The dog, through what we think is a co-domestication event,
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happened, it leads 35,000 years ago, so well predating anything like horses and cows and that sort of
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thing, about 35,000 years ago. But my answer to what was the first domesticated animal is us. We
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started to put ourselves in a culturally created environment, the moment that we started making tools
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and using those tools to feed ourselves. We were actually living existing outside of our own
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biology, by creating these tools and we weren't relying on our teeth anymore solely or digestive
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track solely, we could now get food and start to chop up food and that we never had access to before
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because we created that tool. And it became even more pronounced when we created things like
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fire to not only cook our food, but to change the amount of light we had access to in a day or
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our microclimate, keep ourselves warm when it was cold and all the clothing, all of these technologies
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that we've created allowed us to create literally this artificial human environment that now we are
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also adapting to. Now that includes things like glyphosate and ultra-process food. So the
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difference about evolution now, then six million years ago, is that we're not just responding to
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this naturally changing environment, genetically changing and evolving in relationship to that. We are
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obviously still changing because of that, our gene pools changing, but even more
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pronounces, we're changing because of the culturally created environment that we have created as well,
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which is exactly what you're talking about. But in a lot of different ways, and remember, the key
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here, natural selection only works on two things. One, if you die, and it doesn't work on an
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individual base, it works on a species level, right? Because if one person doesn't procreate,
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it doesn't make a difference on a species level. But if it starts to get at a species level,
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then it makes a huge difference. But at a species level, if you die before childbearing age,
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natural selection will work on it. So if you have a disease, or if a disease presents
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that is killing people before they can have kids, natural selection will work on that,
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and it'll work to edit it from the gene pool. But if it's a disease that hits you when you're
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50 years old, natural selection will never work on it. You've already procreated, right? You've
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already done something for your contribution to the gene pool. It doesn't make a difference.
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Mortality before you procreate natural selection will work on. And the second thing is
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procreation, right? The ability to reproduce. Natural selection will work on that,
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because that will make an impact in the gene pool as well. But anything beyond that natural
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selection, I mean, it matters, but it doesn't make a difference from an evolutionary perspective.
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Those things that impact the ability to survive until childbearing age, and the ability to
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reproduce natural selection will work on. And again, the idea is that it's more than just this
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natural environment. So part of its diet, diet, and the ability to survive that long and reproduce
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is a very real thing. But it's also culture. So there's something called sexual selection,
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right? The idea that we are mentally selecting in a cultural context who we choose to reproduce with.
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If something's happening and doesn't allow you to even get into that gene pool because
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of who we're choosing to have to be partners with, natural selection will work on that as well.
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Should we be interfering with, you know, like that idea of someone's born with a hole in their heart
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and then we fix it? Where is the line for modern medicine, modern technology,
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invading this kind of natural selection? Or is it just like we have the technology, we should
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use it? Like, where do you sit on that kind of question? That's a great question. And I think I
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have a great answer because I had students used to ask me even 10 years ago, these conversations
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are coming up in college classrooms. This was my answer. I'm convinced. And this is going to go
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against some of the modern narrative right now about whether we should be using medical intervention
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or not with certain things. I think we should. And this is why the key, the absolute single key
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to our species surviving during changing times is to have as much variation in our gene pools possible.
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It matters what our gene pool is producing this very moment for all of us right now,
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but it matters more what we can pull from in the future when something in our environment changes.
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Right? Because what is the most well adapted now might be the least well adapted in 15 years
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or in 100 years. And there's a whole new set of rules that we're playing by, whether some of it
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being from a natural environmental change, but also from a cultural environmental change. You know,
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what is it at that moment that is needed in our species to survive and survive until child
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bearing years. And then once we've survived until that child bearing years, actually bear children
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that can then also reproduce. I mean, that is the absolute key. So I know we have this
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sort of feeling, this idea inside of us that we need to be producing. And every single child,
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the absolute strongest, most resilient, you know, based on our modern ideas of what health and
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diet and physique and all of the look like, that's what we need to produce every one of our kids.
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And yes, I think that's very incredibly important. But from not only emotional and cultural levels,
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people in our community that don't exhibit those properties are important. But also from a biological
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just evolutionary sense, the variation in the gene pool that are produced from diversity in our
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world is absolutely essential to our survival as we move forward. We cannot think about evolution
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from this snapshot of a moment that we're sitting in now. Because again, what is most well adapted
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right now could actually be the result of our extinction. It makes me think of like a high school
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environment, right? Where the jock might be the most popular in that environment. But then 20 years
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later, they're now the least popular. And it's the brainiac who's now popular. Whoever applies,
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you know, I mean, it's like that it change an environment that changes the hierarchy of what's
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important to that time and society. And your example right there is perfect because everything
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you just said is social, like it's cultural. The change from that jock in high school in high school,
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they were popular because of the culture, the context, right? This context that we have created
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around high school. And then the context changes. It had nothing to do with what the the mean
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annual rainfall is the environment. It's a culture created thing that are now about sudden
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they're floundering because of something like that. The other thing I also think we have to
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consider this idea of survival of the fittest. First of all, that isn't Darwin's turn. Somebody
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else said that Darwin never never said survival of the fittest. And it's not the way evolution works.
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Evolution does not select for the best of the best. The best of the best stay. I mean, they're
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there. But it's more like that joke about you don't have to be the fastest when you're getting
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taste by there. You just can't be the slowest. When you think about evolution and the way nature
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selection works, it isn't that you have a group of people running away from a bear. And everybody
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gets eaten, but the fastest one. No, it's everybody's running away from a bear. And the bear eats
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the slowest one. The fastest one get away. But the ones that are in the middle also get away too.
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And they're there to continue to populate and continue to put genes into the gene pool,
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create variation. It gets rid of the worst of the worst. And the other ones, everybody else
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has made it through at least in that particular trial. And when the environment changes,
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that changes as well. So I am all for doing everything that we can to create as much variation
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in our gene pool as possible. But also, and it's isn't necessarily going to be a popular opinion
24:52
either. But remember, we're not just operating as a wild animal anymore in a natural environment.
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We're operating in a cultural context. So it isn't just a genetic gene pool that makes the
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difference. But it's also that cultural diversity that's there as well. Different ways of looking
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at the world, different ways of solving problems, different ways of organizing ourselves and adapting
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ourselves in a cultural way are as equally important to have as much diversity as possible.
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So is something that we're potentially getting wrong, and maybe wrong is too
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strong of a word, but go with me, is that we're being too dogmatic about certain diets,
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about certain lifestyles? Or is there a place for that? Because, and this is in a sense,
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kind of a trick question, right? Because we're talking about a specific way of eating,
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a specific way of coexisting, but should we even be so dogmatic about that? Or is that our downfall
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in contributing to the issues that humanity is facing right now?
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If we were both alive 75 years ago having this conversation, I maybe would answer it differently.
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But we have created a place now where the modern industrial food system has spent, what is it?
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5.8 trillion dollars? I forget what the operating budget of the modern industrial food system
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is now, but it's enormous. We have people that are literally sitting in labs, in lab coats with
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test tubes that understand what our senses are like today as a result of millions of years of evolution
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and are sitting there creating food that triggers us to eat more food, or eat crappier food,
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or eat cheaper food. And they're manipulating us. And they're manipulating us. It is a very,
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very evil thing. And we no longer, unfortunately, can rely solely on our senses. I am convinced that
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if we took a baby, a baby today, weaned the baby off of its mother, presented it with real
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genuine food, allowed it to understand its own senses, and then provided nourishing food options
27:13
throughout the rest of that child. They would never need a nutritionist, never need a doctor,
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never need to listen to a project. But that's not the reality of where we are today. And we wouldn't
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need to be dogmatic. The conversation around food like we're having now would never have to happen
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because we wouldn't be a need for it. But we're at a place now where we have some of the strongest
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forces on our planet for purely economic gaining, tricking us into eating these incredibly
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poured diets. And the results of it are now impacting fertility or survivability. All the things
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that we just talked about earlier that natural selection does work on, so we have to pay attention.
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But here's the key. And it took me a long time to understand this. And I still battle with it as
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well. I grew up an incredibly overweight kid. I was unhealthy for most of my life in many ways
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because of the standard American diet that I had been on. So when I started to understand what
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real food really was, I was incredibly dogmatic. I knew the point that for any health benefits,
28:14
the food was giving me the mental strain was the negative, you know, the complete opposite of that
28:20
because I was my entire life revolved around. I can only eat this. I can never eat this.
28:25
Actually, it's part of the last chapter of my book. But what I found after years of being
28:30
too dogmatic is that I am convinced that our complex human relationship with food requires us
28:39
to do more than just nourish ourselves through macronutrients and probiotics and all these other
28:44
things. That's component of it. But to be fully nourished is a human. And this is important because
28:48
our technology and our food have been interrelated for three and a half million years. Our
28:52
traditions, our religion, our power, all these things, almost everything that it means to be human
28:58
has some link with our food at some level. And some of them very, very, very deep, strong rooted
29:04
levels. So you cannot separate the food you choose to eat and how you choose to prepare it and
29:11
how you choose to present it, how you choose to consume it with everything else that you are.
29:17
In order to be fully nourished, it's more than just hitting this protein threshold and making
29:22
sure we get enough vitamin, whatever in the food. That's very, very important. But for humans,
29:28
we also have to meet or exceed our cultural expectations, our emotional expectations, our
29:32
political needs, our emotional needs, our socioeconomic needs. All of these things are wrapped up.
29:39
So to be fully nourished, that means it's not only the food, but how you prepare that food,
29:43
how you present that food, how you consume that food, who you consume it with, the context of
29:47
the table that you're sitting at when you're eating it, it's a very complex thing. And if we put
29:51
too much pressure on ourselves, we can never meet those other needs at all. But that's really,
30:01
really, really the key. So I do think there's moments in many of our lives that we need to be
30:07
dogmatic. If you are suffering from something and food can heal you, then you need to jump on it
30:14
and grab it and do everything you can to make sure you're healing yourself in whatever way you need
30:19
to. And if you need to get rid of oxalates or you need to, you're dealing with diabetes or
30:23
something like that. Absolutely. Once you get to the place of health, relative health,
30:30
making sure you're meeting all of those other needs at the same time I am convinced is the key
30:36
to true human nourishment. I'm so digging this conversation. I mean, these are the things that I
30:42
don't feel like people are talking about enough. Your brand and your book name are eat like a human,
30:47
which brings up a couple of things and you just touched on them, which is speaking to what we eat,
30:53
but then also our humanness. And I think sometimes we are so focused on, well, what are we eating,
31:00
what should we eat that we're forgetting? Well, how does that mix with our humanness?
31:04
Absolutely. Because they're not the same thing. And to your point, our humanness is being
31:10
manipulated. As we transition into the latter half of this podcast, I really want to leave people
31:18
with how do we connect? How do we connect this concept of ancestral foods, whether it's eating whole
31:25
animal, fermented dairy, fermented vegetables, these traditional ways of eating? How do we connect
31:32
that to not only our modern times, but our modern humanness? And what are some real daily practices
31:40
that you would impart on this audience to not only support their longevity, but their fertility?
31:48
Since those are the two things we kind of articulated are kind of what the human species is about.
31:54
Absolutely. There's several things, but part of it is a mindset shift. Axi, all of it is a mindset
32:00
shift. We've been very fortunate as a family because we've been very intentional for decades. Now,
32:06
we've realized the value of what not only the archaeological records provide, but what
32:12
traditional and indigenous groups all over the world have to still inform us with. Many people
32:20
listening know about the important work of Dr. Weston Price in the 1930s and how he traveled
32:26
to a bunch of different places, documented diet, dental health, and recorded a bunch of other
32:32
health markers. And as the basis for both the Price Potential Foundation and the Weston Price
32:36
Foundation, it's amazing work. And even then it was a great time to do it because a lot of the
32:41
the groups he went into were starting to get impacted by modern life. Now it's even more crucial
32:47
because for as remote of a lot of the places that my family and I have been are everybody that we've
32:56
been to has been impacted in at least some way. And a lot of these traditions are getting lost.
33:01
So they need to be documented. They need to be recorded and they need to be used as a foundation
33:06
for understanding what our diets have been like and what we can do to impact and infuse this
33:12
information into our modern lives, which is exactly what we've been doing in our house for a long time,
33:17
but also now what we're doing at the restaurant. And the reality is there's amazing information
33:21
and we can get a lot of a lot of great information from. But one of the things that those trips
33:27
and those journeys and experiences have done for our entire family is allowed us to reflect on
33:33
ourselves. So many of us and we did as well and we're probably still a little bit susceptible to it.
33:40
But you know we get caught up in this however we're living right now is the way. Like it's the right
33:47
way it's the thing we should be basing all our decisions on and there's something inherently good
33:51
about it just because it's the way we're doing it. And by looking back from an outsider's perspective
33:57
we get to say wow maybe that isn't the right way or maybe we can we can manipulate this and make
34:02
it even better. And it's more than just I can start eating liver right it's literally systemic change
34:08
about entire lifestyles. Anybody who's looking to start to get this perspective there's an article
34:14
that I've assigned I took college for over 20 years and every single anthropology class I've ever
34:21
taught I've assigned the same article and I suggest everybody read it and unfortunately in order to
34:26
make the case that I'm going to make I'm going to kind of give away the punchline kind of like you
34:30
just ruined season three of fire for me. But it's an article written in 1956 I believe you can
34:37
Google it and download it for free it's only a few pages so it's worth it it's called the secret
34:41
body ritual of the Nasarima and it's written by a guy named Horus Minor and I think it was from
34:46
American antiquity in 1956 but if you just Google it it'll come up and I read I read this in graduate
34:52
school and it's still fooled me but it's talking about this group of people that had just been
34:57
identified in the 1950s in the middle of America this culture and it's talking about these weird
35:03
body rituals that the culture engages in on a daily basis and you start reading it who the hell
35:09
are these people and I'm like a second year in a graduate school and I'm like wait a minute I'm
35:13
an anthropologist now I've never heard of these people and they're from anyhow by the time you're
35:18
done with the article what you will have realized if you've read it very carefully and thought about
35:22
it is that it is an outsider's perspective of us as Americans and so Nasarima is American
35:29
backwards right so that's part of the title and all these words in the article and they say oh they
35:35
do this and they go to this place or these nouns are actually our own word common words backwards
35:42
it's mind blowing because you spend most your time reading this article thinking who are those
35:46
like really weird people and then by the by the time you get to the end of it you're like oh it's us
35:52
it's us from an outsider's perspective it's powerful so what I would suggest is if you really really
36:01
want to make the change to achieve true genuine health you create in yourself this openness to
36:12
critically look at the way you your family your community lives their lives and be willing to make
36:21
changes necessary even if they're uncomfortable even if they seem weird at first because a lot of
36:25
these changes actually will not only nourish you but in order to nourish you they make your life
36:30
better right and in many ways more fulfilling so I say this because one of the suggestions that I
36:36
have to directly answer your question is to truly look at the way you deal with your food I don't
36:40
mean know what you put your in your cart at whole foods and whether you're going to go carnivore
36:46
or keto whatever all those all believe me those are very very important decisions but how you prepare
36:51
your food at home and how much time you spend doing it and who in your families engaged in doing
36:57
and at what level are you gonna push the limits a little bit and maybe be a little bit uncomfortable
37:02
at first but for very very powerful returns so my number one suggestion and this is very important
37:09
and this is very empowering because I'm not gonna say go listen to this person or go read this book
37:15
there's great people to listen to and there's great books to read the number one person that you
37:20
should be listening to is you right you have everything that you need you just need to get back to
37:26
the place where your senses are in tune and you're in tune with your senses and you trust yourself
37:33
and in order to do that it's your responsibility to give yourself the education that you need and
37:38
this is the way you do it you literally do it in your kitchen right you literally do it in your
37:41
kitchen so this is my example and for some people they're gonna say you're out of your damn mind
37:46
I don't have enough time because I'm living this busy life but again look back at yourself
37:50
and the way you're living your life do you really not have enough time to do this can you maybe not
37:55
watch that last episode of the bear and spend a little bit more time in the kitchen there was a
37:58
study done I think was seven years ago eight years ago when food tv network was really you know at
38:04
at its height before they started doing silly game shows and things the average american you know
38:10
household that was watching food tv spent more time watching food tv than they spent actually in
38:15
the kitchen it's insane this is my suggestion you take the food and be honest with yourself you take
38:20
the food that you and your family eat all the time whether it's every day every week all the time
38:26
like you're your regular family go to don't sit there and say okay I know that we eat hamburgers
38:30
and hot dogs all the time and grilled cheeses but I really you know want to eat this be honest with
38:36
yourself what do you get what's your go-to thing is a chicken nuggets I don't care what the hell it is
38:41
and then sit there and take a slot upside just a weekend and make that entire meal 100%
38:46
for scratch I mean push the limits entirely from scratch if you're going to eat chicken nuggets
38:50
then you go get the chicken you do all of it if it's mac and cheese I know it sounds silly but
38:56
we started making cheese in our house 12 years ago we make every bit of cheese that we serve here
39:03
in this restaurant now it is a very navigable thing that you can actually do if your kids eat
39:08
grilled cheeses three days out of the week then make grilled cheese make the bread make the cheese
39:13
make the butter make the mayonnaise grilled in a pan and serve with your kids at the end of this
39:18
process it doesn't matter if the cheese was good it doesn't matter if it even looked like cheese
39:25
what you have provided yourself is the absolute best opportunity the biggest window the best
39:33
insight unfiltered into the food that you eat every day the stuff that you literally put in
39:37
your body all the time and one of two things is going to happen at the end of that exercise and
39:41
again it doesn't matter even if the dog would need it one of two things is going to happen one
39:45
they're like wow I like this I'm going to learn to make this really really good when I get done
39:49
with this I'm going to learn to make the next thing really really good and continue
39:52
on that process which is awesome but for many of you that's not going to happen but something
39:57
equally as powerful happens if you say okay great I've done the grilled cheese experiment it was
40:02
absolutely terrible I'm going to buy all my cheese and my bread and my mayonnaise and my and my butter
40:07
from now on just like I did before but when you walk into that grocery store you are a different
40:11
person you are no longer susceptible to all the marketing and the advertising and the shelf placement
40:17
and the pretty boxes and the coupons that come on them in the paper every Sunday you are now
40:22
walking in that grocery store as an informed consumer you now can turn over the back of that label
40:27
of cheese and understand what all those pieces mean and you can decide for yourself the best
40:33
possible options that you're going to buy for your family and not only are you going to nourish
40:37
your family better that way by seeing through all the nonsense but you're also going to support
40:43
the people that are making the best quality food possible and that money is going to go to them
40:48
and it's going to start this entire thing that's the number one thing I love that and I would even
40:52
offer if you're able to turn this into a palate cleanser so do it long enough whether it's just
40:57
two weeks versus just one week then you're really going to also give your palate enough space
41:04
to now taste that ultra-process food in a totally different way you actually taste the truly
41:10
kind of artificial flavors of it and then on the flip side you'll taste that natural food in a
41:15
very different way we just need it's literally the palate changes in two weeks it's a great point
41:19
but it's not just your palate because the other thing that happens at the other side of it is
41:23
we're filming a video for Wired Magazine a few years ago right before COVID and the whole
41:27
film crew is down and the director was here we broke for lunch and we walked about a block
41:32
and a half down to a restaurant that's I did it road and we're sitting at this restaurant eating
41:35
and talking and I was having almost a very similar conversation with them and I said look people
41:40
don't know what a nourished a fully truly nourishing meal tastes like and they don't know what it feels
41:47
like and I'm convinced that if you provide if somebody is actually able to sit down and eat a truly
41:54
100% nourishing meal they now have that that context right that baseline to judge all the other meals
42:01
not only with with how it tastes but also how they feel how did they feel and they got up from that
42:06
meal how did they feel a couple hours later how did they feel the next morning you know what did
42:09
their bowel movements the next day look like compared to the rest you know and all of those things
42:14
and in the middle of this conversation it was a little bit longer than this but it was a little
42:17
bit longer than that I look over at the director and he's kind of I thought he had checked out of the
42:22
conversation he's kind of looking up like this let's say what's up like my boring you he's like oh
42:27
no no no no no I'm just actually trying to think if I've ever had a fully nourishing meal in my
42:32
entire life wow and he actually doesn't think that he had but how many of us are making decisions
42:38
about what we like what we don't like how should we should be eating actually even feeding others
42:42
and we've never truly had that 100% fully nourishing meal to use as a baseline to make these decisions
42:48
I would hypothesize that it's a high percentage of people that actually don't know what real food
42:53
tastes like here in America particularly you know and I you hear that all the time right
42:58
oh I was traveling in Europe and I could eat anything I wanted and I felt so good it's like well
43:02
yeah but that's probably because it was all freshly made food so it's less that it's in Europe
43:07
versus America but it's that it's freshly locally found food there is a food lab called the Nordic
43:16
Food Lab who when we first started at our food lab years ago we were modeling some of the things
43:22
we're doing after this amazing place the Nordic Food Lab started as the test kitchen for NOMA
43:27
and since then they'd become more aligned with Copenhagen University but they put out some books
43:32
and videos again with the test kitchen for NOMA they've done a lot of amazing things but they also
43:36
do some very or you should do some very simple simple things but powerful and I'm going to use it
43:42
as an example here in the middle Copenhagen they set up a table and they would go to the store the
43:48
farms or whatever and get all the apples that are available in the fall in Denmark and they'd cut
43:54
them up and put them out on the table and you could go and as if somebody walking through the
44:00
city you could go and stop and try a bite a bite of every single apple that you have available to
44:05
you in the grocery store and I thought that was so simple but so powerful I still have never tried
44:12
every apple in the grocery store but yet I go into the grocery store and make a decision about what
44:17
apple I think I like best but I haven't tried them all like I haven't tried them all so you know
44:22
the ability to do that with your diet try all these foods that you've never tried seem not only
44:29
how you do respond to them because it's one thing for you to think you don't like liver and it's
44:33
another thing to actually try liver prepared product fresh liver prepared properly and then try it
44:38
and to complete different experiences what you think it is and what it actually is is different
44:42
try all of these different things try these things in your diet and then see what a nourishing meal
44:47
feels like use that as a foundation and now you can make better decisions as you move forward
44:53
they're simple but again one of the things that unfortunately the health industry
44:58
pharmaceutical industry and even a lot of the social media influencer industry is doing is trying
45:04
to tell you what to do a lot of that information is horrible much of it is for sure very very good
45:10
but again it's it's just like forcing that kid to eat the jar spinach no matter if throwing
45:14
across the room all of these inputs are teaching us to not trust ourselves the thing we need to do
45:22
is get to the place where we feel empowered to make decisions under all we're talking about our own
45:27
instincts getting back to our ancestral knowledge of what our body needs how visual should we be
45:37
when we are looking outside of ourselves for some of those answers and what I mean by that is
45:42
is because you brought up for example there's some people that work for FDA or or licensure or US
45:50
DA whatever factions and they look very overweight and here they're telling us what we should be eating
45:57
and then there's someone who's on you know social media who looks like like yourself who looks very fit
46:02
who looks very healthy and then they're telling us something different where is that balance of like
46:09
trusting my own body but then visually using your eyes and what you see in front of you
46:15
and the kind of congruence of what the person's saying and what they look like are they walking
46:20
their talk where do those kind of come together that's a fantastic question and I struggle with it
46:26
as well and I've seen like you know the stuff that Sean Baker posts with the um yes he does that a lot
46:32
you know I that's exactly what I'm thinking about about when you're talking even Ken Berry talking
46:37
about I don't know if you've heard him tell this story it's a powerful story and he's a physician
46:42
and he remembers when he was terribly overweight sitting in the chair with his belly hanging over
46:49
his pants telling somebody that they're prediabetic and they got to start cutting out the carbs or
46:55
whatever and how that made him feel hypocritical I do think there's something to that for sure
47:01
I would also say it isn't simple though food like we've been talking about this entire time
47:08
it's so much more than providing nourishment in a biological sense or making a sick in a biological
47:13
sense it's providing nourishment and fulfilling needs many many many other needs that we have cultural
47:19
religious socioeconomic whatever happens of the accommodation of all these things what we put
47:24
into our mouth is determined by a whole host of factors some in our control many of them are not
47:30
while it is very easy to just say never listen to a to a skinny chef which is kind of silly merely
47:38
but you could very easily say you should never take any sort of advice from an overweight doctor
47:45
that's very easy but it's it's way too simple because there are some brilliant brilliant physicians
47:51
brilliant people in nutritional space that understand the mechanics of biological nutrition
48:00
but just haven't cracked the cultural or emotional part for themselves
48:05
I love that I love that answer and that brings us back to the humaneness of what we eat is
48:11
you can't sometimes separate the two right that you might understand even in your case you might
48:18
understand the ancestral logic and and in science behind why we should be doing these things but
48:25
then your humaneness and how you deal with your lifestyle your the modern stressors whatever
48:32
it is your environment all these things are still playing into your lifestyle you know what you
48:38
look like and and how you coexist in this world you know one of the things is coming out of this
48:44
and it's something we put on our I wrote in our broad post a few weeks ago it's the need for
48:49
for grace I mean we have to give ourselves our families are the people around us we have to
48:56
give people some time some patience and space I can't imagine there is anybody in the world right
49:03
now that is battling diabetes or prediabetes or coronary heart disease or cancer or obesity
49:10
or acne or anything that doesn't want to change it but the power the the psychological
49:19
parts of all of this and unfortunately the literally criminal ways that the modern food system
49:26
is tweaking these foods to keep us sick is so powerful that so many people can't escape it
49:36
yeah we sit here and judge so quickly listen I judge myself on a daily basis and for as much as
49:42
I've told you a few minutes ago how we need to relax a little bit about these things and give
49:47
us I mean I am really really I force myself every day did not be so hard on myself we have to play
49:53
that balance a little bit right there are things it's those little tiny things that we do every
49:57
single day I just started cold plunging I absolutely love it so forcing yourself to do that every
50:02
single morning I do push-ups and pull-ups and sit-ups because quite often I can't get to the gym
50:06
just with our lifestyle with the business right now but I force myself to do this every single day
50:10
I mean there is that level of consistency and persistence that we have to have for certain things
50:16
but we also have to have that emotional and cultural balance with all of it not only with
50:21
ourselves but with the people around us I think we just have to give each other all this grace and
50:26
and at the same time there are things that I am very confident about and I and there's nothing
50:31
that I said today on this podcast that I'm not 100% convinced is true doesn't mean it's all true
50:35
but I at least believed it to be 100% true but there are a lot of questions many many many questions
50:40
that I still have that I'm looking for answers to as well and there is nobody nobody that has
50:46
ever lived or that has currently alive that has all the answers for human diet and health and
50:51
even if they did which they do not something is going to change and we're going to you know
50:56
then they're going to need more information as well the way that I think we should
51:01
approach listening to other people about food whether they be a physician a nutritionist a
51:07
social meeting influencer whatever is the same way that I used to approach no buying a CD in the
51:13
90s in the 80s like other than slippery one what which is every song and there is fantastic
51:19
you buy a CD for one song you realize that all right there are some songs on here that are
51:24
absolute trash but that song is awesome and you listen to that song and repeat over and over
51:30
and over again it's the same thing none of nobody has all the answers but almost everybody that at
51:36
least has good intentions has some really good informations or a nugget that we can take away
51:41
it is our responsibility to figure out our own health it is our responsibility to put these
51:47
little pieces together put those songs together and make the playlist that you give your girlfriend
51:52
right in 1992 like it is our responsibility to put those things together and make it work for us
51:57
but at the same time you don't not buy the album because there's a bad song on it there are some
52:02
social media influencers right now that I cannot stand that their entire platform is to pick holes
52:07
in other people and yeah I agree when they do that the intent is not to discredit that one thing
52:13
they said their intent is to discredit everything that they said and I don't want anybody to fall
52:18
into that trap as well because there's amazing information out there we just have to be able to
52:23
filter it ourselves and the way that we filter it is to take on the ownership of empowering ourselves
52:30
to be able to do that filter people need to know this you are truly an experiment you will try
52:35
pretty much everything I'm not aware that you haven't tried one thing you everything you've been
52:41
put in front of you've tried I'm pretty sure that's an accurate statement right so is there anything
52:47
that you have tried in your travels and your hunger for knowledge around you know ancestral foods
52:54
and traditional ways of making food that you were like hell no am I doing that again I mean like
52:59
like it's just like okay one and done baby so remember all these things are happening in most
53:07
cases at the family level right which means there's five of us it's me my wife Christina my
53:12
oldest daughter Brianna my son Billy and my son Alyssa and all of us have different personalities
53:20
as we should I will try anything because I want the entire experience and one of the best ways
53:29
to experience anything is through food because it's one of the most sensual experiences that we have
53:35
and I mean sensual and all of our senses are firing at the same time when we're engaged in the
53:39
activating food like we what talked about earlier so I want to experience the world through food
53:46
and I also have that intellectual curiosity my son will try anything to gross out the rest of the
53:53
family my oldest daughter Brianna for example has that singing intellectual curiosity and will
53:58
try will forced herself to try something well outside of her comfort zone because she wants to
54:04
experience it as well that said I've had it twice and I would have it again but the most difficult
54:11
thing for me to mentally consume and the strongest flavor of anything I've ever eaten is the
54:19
cashew-martsou cheese in Sardinia and for anybody who doesn't know what it is it's unfortunately
54:26
considered the most dangerous cheese in the world so in 1986 the Guinness Book of World Records
54:31
called this cheese the most dangerous cheese in the world it is obviously not in fact the most
54:35
dangerous cheese in the world I would say is probably vulvita but this this is how it's made so
54:40
there's several cheeses and most of the time cheese makers want insects bugs things like that to
54:46
stay away from the cheese there's a few cheeses a cheese in Germany where they invite cheese mites
54:54
in there's a french cheese they invite cheese mites in this particular cheese they invite a fly
54:59
they make a pecorino it's a sheep milk cheese and they make little divots in the top of the
55:04
cheese the big little cheese these flies a special fly comes and lays eggs in the little divots
55:11
and these eggs hatch and maggots come out and then the maggots start burrowing into the cheese
55:16
and it's it's done all all intentionally so the maggots start burrowing into the cheese and if you can
55:20
imagine the picture you should have in your head is as these maggots are diving through the cheese
55:25
it's kind of like an earthworm going through the ground like the earth is coming in one side
55:29
and it's leaving a little bit changed so the cheese is going in one end and coming out the other
55:34
end a little bit changed a lot of chemical and physical changes are happening as a result of this
55:38
one of the things that's happening is there's a lipace enzyme in the maggots that breaks down the
55:45
fats in the cheese and it's the very similar reaction to what you get with the sharpest
55:50
provolone in the world like if you've ever had like incredibly sharp provolone where it smells
55:56
really strong on the way in and it tastes really really strong and your glands a little bit of
56:00
that survival comes in the back like that like really sharpness that's because of a lipace enzyme
56:05
that nowadays actually is intentionally added to the provolone but so these maggots are breaking down
56:10
these fats releasing these really strong flavors and aromas making the cheese softer on the inside
56:15
and you're supposed to actually eat the cheese with the maggots still crawling around in it
56:19
it's strong i've eaten a lot insects in my life but they've almost always been dead by
56:25
telling you put in your mouth so you're taking a piece of cheese what you actually spread it
56:28
usually on some of the you're eating this cheese and it's crawling with live maggots and it's got
56:33
this really strong flavor really strong aroma it's powerful i forget what it is but it's like a 40
56:39
thousand euro fine if you're caught with this cheese it's the most silliest thing on the planet
56:44
but because of the recognition of dangerous cheese in the Guinness Book of World Records and
56:51
everything all the fallout they're followed after that it's kind of like moonshine right it's
56:57
an illegal activity and it's all underground and and it's all kind of hidden in all this so with
57:02
that said just like with moonshine if you get the first pullings off of the still you can get
57:08
pretty very sick or go blind you want to make sure it's good moonshine well just like with this
57:13
you want to make sure it's good cheese and there's two ways to eat this cheese you can eat this
57:16
cheese with the maggots still crawling around it or you can wait to the maggots mature turn into
57:21
flies fly away and then you can have the cheese without the maggots in it the advantage i understand
57:26
how do they get out how do the flies get out of the cheese though well then they go back up to the
57:30
top and they leave oh my gosh okay the advantage to eating it with the live maggots is that
57:38
it's a very good indicator of the quality of the cheese if if this thing is full of maggots and
57:43
the maggots are live and vibrant and we're going around then you know the cheese is actually still
57:48
good uh something wrong with the cheese if there's a bunch of dead maggots in it or the maggots have
57:53
already left and it's been stored you know you don't necessarily you don't have that at least
57:58
indicator whether or not it's good cheese or not it's powerful it's powerful but i will tell you
58:03
it's powerful in a in a really cool way that if you ever have the opportunity it's absolutely worth it
58:10
but that was the strongest flavor and mentally the most difficult thing for me to get over
58:14
you always got a wonder like how did they discover this you know what i mean like like a lot of
58:19
these kind of uh traditional foods sometimes you're like okay that's brilliant and how did you get to
58:24
that you know what i mean so because obviously for them to discover that the maggots did that they had
58:30
to have first of all the cheese had to have gotten infested with some maggots and then they they had
58:36
to have chosen to eat it with the maggots you know i'm saying like it's like how did the first person
58:42
discover how to do an artichoke you know what i mean that kind of stuff is fasting but cheese
58:48
bandit cheese criminal dose similar the authorities are going to be knocking on your door any moment
58:56
from the european authorities because you ate this cheese twice i just so appreciate you i think
59:02
a testimony to why you and i get along so well we're such good friends is that we really do look at
59:09
food very similarly and there's not many people in the industries right now particularly on
59:15
social media that look at it the way we talk about it and i quote you a lot and i hope i do justice
59:21
when i do quote you for how fantastic i think of you your book eat like a human it's all tattered and
59:28
in red where can people find your book eat like a human couple places so it's on it's available
59:34
through all the major bookstores and online but first of all i would suggest anybody who is anywhere
59:41
near our area we would love to have you come in and have us cook for you so we're at the modern
59:45
stone it's kitchen here in Chester 10 Maryland we're very close to Washington DC
59:51
Philadelphia and only a few hours away from New York City so we're very easy to get to certainly
59:55
have copies here for sale but on top of that if anybody wants an autograph copy we're selling we
1:00:00
sell it on our website you know for the same list price and i'd be happy to autograph it and if
1:00:06
you put a little note in the how you want it autographed i'm happy to autograph it in any way and
1:00:09
send it off for you i send it off to you also if anybody wants our major mission is to empower people
1:00:18
to nourish themselves and have the tools that they need to be able to complete that seriously
1:00:25
important you know monumental important task so we'd have a whole host of classes so you can come
1:00:30
here to our food lab and take a class we do cheese making classes and sourdough classes and put
1:00:35
your in classes we have sourdough pots a class tomorrow so we always have in-person classes we
1:00:39
have a ton of classes online that you can download as well we have a restaurant downstairs
1:00:45
modern stone kitchen where if you want to just make the food for you'd be happy to and we also have
1:00:50
a bed breakfast next door we call up a modern stone age sanctuary we've set it up the same way
1:00:56
that we approach food with these ancestral approaches to to nourishment we've set that same sort
1:01:02
of context in the bed and breakfast so ancestral approach to just living it's a really
1:01:09
need experience to come there and then come into the restaurant you have a marketplace in the
1:01:13
restaurant as well right so people can just come in and buy bread you know one-offs right and we
1:01:18
have it now we're working on expanding it but we also all the food that we create we have
1:01:23
the components of that as we create it in in the regions so we have a reach in fridge and a
1:01:28
reach in freezer so things like and obviously stuff to take out that's every temperature so all
1:01:33
of our sourdough breads you can come and take for sale all our fermented butter you can get our
1:01:37
cream cheese that we made all of those sorts of things are fermented cats up we have liver
1:01:42
worst all of the stuff that we're making in-house that end up going into a lot of the food the larger
1:01:46
meals that we create you can also come and shop but the things that don't need to be refrigerated
1:01:52
and non-animal-based we are not USDA certified so we cannot ship across state lines animal products
1:01:59
we're working on doing some dry stuff right now but anything else like the breads and the
1:02:04
the sourdough cookies and that sort of thing we will ship so you can find that find the
1:02:08
information online there's two great places to go look one is modernstoneateskitchen.com
1:02:13
which anything that has to do with the restaurant you can get information about there and then
1:02:19
the website eat like a human.com you can find out any information about our classes and that's
1:02:24
where our blog post lives and if they want to follow you where do they go you can follow me at
1:02:31
Dr. Bill Schindler on Instagram and Facebook so at dr. Bill Schindler and you can also follow the
1:02:37
kitchen at modernstoneateskitchen Bill you gave me a lot of your time and I am I'm just so grateful
1:02:44
you're the person I wanted to talk to the most and and every time we have conversations I gleam
1:02:50
so much from you and I love you in Christina I love work I've gotten the chance to work with you guys
1:02:56
a little bit I hope to do some more at the actual kitchen because we did it off site so thank you
1:03:01
again for your time you are truly a gem in this what I would say is confusing and over abundant
1:03:08
information kind of world you to me stand out as a beacon of light so thank you well first off
1:03:16
thank you thank you for for those kind words let let me just add when you ask me to do this
1:03:22
interview you can't imagine how honored I was to be able to do it so same sort of thing and I just
1:03:29
have to say we've we've been able to work together we worked together the event last summer
1:03:33
that was a fantastic opportunity but and I love the work that you're doing the pluck I would also say
1:03:38
I have had the opportunity to be near you and observe you set up it all towards towards a different
1:03:45
conference in fact I think we first met a polypace farm wasn't it yeah and you can't say enough
1:03:52
about what those interactions are like and how how meaningful they are and I have just watched
1:03:58
you with so many people coming up and I think it was last year when we were at Western price conference
1:04:02
and your daughter was with you as well you can learn a lot from watching somebody and how they
1:04:06
interact with other people and I have been truly impressed every time I love the work that you're
1:04:10
doing and it's been an honor to talk you through these best regards thank you everyone truly I hope
1:04:16
you got something from this but please dig deeper into Bill not only his restaurant but his book and his
1:04:22
the information that he shares it truly truly in my judgment is pure heartfelt and knowledgeable
1:04:31
and it's in my judgment the best way to eat like a human so thank you again Bill my post thank you
1:04:39
thank you so much for joining me on every day ancestral if you enjoyed this episode hit
1:04:46
subscribe so you don't miss the next one you could find the show notes links and resources
1:04:51
mentioned at eatpluck.com that's e-a-t-p-l-u-c-k dot com and hey if you know someone who'd get something out
1:05:02
of this share it with them too stay curious live well and keep it ancestral