Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Jack the Ripper IDENTIFIED

Transcript

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Jack the Ripper IDENTIFIED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Quody bus, but Joseph's gotten more. I travel a lot
0:06
Speaker 1: now at this stage of my life. You think that
0:10
Speaker 1: it's going to be kind of the opposite. You know
0:12
Speaker 1: that you would slow down maybe the more miles you
0:17
Speaker 1: get on your tires. But for me that's sped up,
0:24
Speaker 1: and I go to go to Great Britain a lot now,
0:28
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of times a year. It seems
0:32
Speaker 1: I'd be going back again in June. As a matter
0:34
Speaker 1: of fact, for crime con The thing that's so attractive
0:41
Speaker 1: to me about London and Great Britain in general is
0:45
Speaker 1: how ancient it is from our sensibilities, not if you're
0:48
Speaker 1: a Greek obviously, but anxient enough. And one area in
0:54
Speaker 1: London in particular is notable cause of maybe some infamous
1:01
Speaker 1: things you've heard about it relative to homicide, but because
1:08
Speaker 1: an old Roman road ran through it. As a matter
1:12
Speaker 1: of fact, that old Roman road made up the outer
1:17
Speaker 1: defenses of what was once called not London but Londonium,
1:22
Speaker 1: which is the old Roman settlement right along the Thames
1:27
Speaker 1: River that runs through the middle of London. Today we're
1:33
Speaker 1: going to talk about something I think in our modern
1:36
Speaker 1: minds it seems ancient, but really wasn't that long ago,
1:40
Speaker 1: just over one hundred years ago that happened that since
1:44
Speaker 1: shockwaves through London and by that measure, around the world,
1:51
Speaker 1: and that is the murders that occurred in Whitechapel. Those
1:57
Speaker 1: murders have been famously connected to one individual that went
2:04
Speaker 1: by the name of Jack the Ripper, And the question
2:08
Speaker 1: is has his identity as this perpetrator been finally positively identified.
2:19
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks David no
2:27
Speaker 1: a priddle on and on about Great Britain and my
2:29
Speaker 1: travels over there, and probably get tired of hearing about it.
2:33
Speaker 1: I just wish I could drag you along with me.
2:37
Speaker 2: Much to do it.
2:38
Speaker 1: I think we'd have a glorious time. But you know,
2:42
Speaker 1: this last time that Kimmy and I were in London
2:51
Speaker 1: for Crome Con, we'll see it would be the London
2:55
Speaker 1: Crome Con twenty twenty four. We stayed adjacent to where
3:04
Speaker 1: the meeting was being held, but we stayed over a
3:06
Speaker 1: few extra days because I went and visited universities while
3:09
Speaker 1: I was there, and we wound up staying in Whitechapel.
3:13
Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, I know you're gonna
3:16
Speaker 1: laugh at me. We did a lot of touristy things
3:20
Speaker 1: because I'd never spent time in Whitechapel and all of
3:23
Speaker 1: my visits to London. So with that said, let me
3:28
Speaker 1: tell you what we did that was kind of touristy.
3:32
Speaker 1: I love fish and chips, I do. It's better than
3:36
Speaker 1: any kind of American fast food. I love fish anyway.
3:40
Speaker 1: And you get these big, deep fried, golden pieces of heaven,
3:47
Speaker 1: you know, and you put the malt vinegar on it
3:49
Speaker 1: and maybe a little tartar sauce and just one the
3:53
Speaker 1: pieces are so big, just one piece of fish will
3:56
Speaker 1: satisfy you. And it's golden brown, you know. And of
4:00
Speaker 1: course they're famous for their chips, which are not chips,
4:03
Speaker 1: they're French fries. And then here's the other thing that
4:07
Speaker 1: Kim is like really into mushy peas, which are English
4:11
Speaker 1: peas that are mashed up with a bit of onion
4:14
Speaker 1: and garlic salt in our garlic powder, I think, in them,
4:18
Speaker 1: and they're almost like mashed potatoes, and everybody eats them
4:22
Speaker 1: and it's an interesting combination.
4:26
Speaker 2: And I do not have a palette that would survive
4:28
Speaker 2: that just saying.
4:30
Speaker 1: Well, I got it. The reason I'm telling you this.
4:33
Speaker 1: The restaurant that we went to, which is right on
4:36
Speaker 1: the main drag through the middle of White Chapel where
4:40
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper probably strode about. The name of the
4:45
Speaker 1: chip stand is actually called you ready for this, Jack
4:49
Speaker 1: the Chipper, Jack the Chipper. So you know, we went
4:58
Speaker 1: there like I don't know, three times and eight and
5:02
Speaker 1: it was always late at night because their days ran
5:04
Speaker 1: so long, and you're always kind of in a funk anyway,
5:07
Speaker 1: because the time changed your body. It takes a while
5:10
Speaker 1: for your body to get adjusted. For me, it does,
5:12
Speaker 1: particularly at this age. But the other indulgence that I
5:17
Speaker 1: that I have is I love going to the Turkish
5:20
Speaker 1: barber shop. And Turkish barbers are all over Great Britain
5:24
Speaker 1: and they're amazing at what they do. You know, everything
5:28
Speaker 1: from the hot towel around your face to you know,
5:31
Speaker 1: the shave with an actual straight razor, which is you know,
5:37
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, kind of interesting. In Whitechapel,
5:41
Speaker 1: what do you put it that way, and you really
5:45
Speaker 1: get tended to. They even give you a glass of whiskey.
5:51
Speaker 2: You probably need that just to survive the fear factor
5:54
Speaker 2: of going in in the Whitechapel where Jack the Ripper
5:57
Speaker 2: is known worldwide. And you got a guy with a.
6:00
Speaker 1: Yeah and scissors. So anyway, the name of the name
6:07
Speaker 1: of the barber is called Jack the Clipper. And so
6:13
Speaker 1: I've got pictures. I'll post them of my social media.
6:16
Speaker 1: So we went there, and but you know, when we
6:19
Speaker 1: went back to the barbershop, Dave, this is when it
6:22
Speaker 1: kind of hit me because the roads streets, I say roads,
6:26
Speaker 1: but the streets that you run through they're paved, obviously,
6:31
Speaker 1: but every now and then you'll see a crack in
6:35
Speaker 1: the asphalt and you'll see the old cobblestones that are
6:38
Speaker 1: immediately beneath. And just for a moment in my own
6:42
Speaker 1: crazy mind, you can hear the clatter of horse hoofs,
6:47
Speaker 1: or you can hear the sound of a buggy, you know,
6:50
Speaker 1: kind of rumbling down the street. And the streets are
6:54
Speaker 1: still very dark. It's very very dark, and everything is
6:58
Speaker 1: kind of closed in. And yeah, it's obviously more illuminated
7:01
Speaker 1: than it was back in the eighteen eighties, but just
7:05
Speaker 1: for a moment, Tom, you can appreciate what a kind
7:10
Speaker 1: of interesting environment it would have been in, particularly if
7:14
Speaker 1: you're working as a prostitute turning tricks out there on
7:19
Speaker 1: these dark looks, and there's these little cubby holes that
7:22
Speaker 1: kind of extend. They're kind of like little back alleys,
7:25
Speaker 1: and they would actually apply their trade. And not to
7:29
Speaker 1: be too inappropriate, but you know, these prostitutes would many
7:36
Speaker 1: times conduct their trades standing against a wall, you know,
7:39
Speaker 1: with a john that would come along and either that
7:44
Speaker 1: or they would take them back to and here's an
7:48
Speaker 1: interesting bit of trivia as well, take them back to
7:51
Speaker 1: their crib. And we hear, you know, we've heard the
7:54
Speaker 1: word crib in the modern vernacular for ever and ever,
7:58
Speaker 1: we're going to go back to the crib. Well, you know,
7:59
Speaker 1: the or know the word crib as it applies to
8:03
Speaker 1: a dwelling actually goes to prostitution. The prostitutes had cribs
8:09
Speaker 1: that they would go to, that's what they referred to
8:10
Speaker 1: them as. And a lot of these prostitutes had babies,
8:13
Speaker 1: you know, they would be you know, in a crib,
8:16
Speaker 1: within the crib in the same room while they're turning tricks.
8:20
Speaker 1: It was a different world back then. And I hope
8:26
Speaker 1: that I've kind of painted the picture from my you know,
8:29
Speaker 1: through my own two eyes here relative to the best
8:34
Speaker 1: that I can kind of target in for those that
8:37
Speaker 1: have never been there. A lot of interesting little areas
8:42
Speaker 1: and alcoves in Whitechapel, and you know, you've got big
8:46
Speaker 1: businesses that have popped up headquarters for all kinds of
8:50
Speaker 1: people there, lad Bible, which is internationally known. Actually I
8:54
Speaker 1: did an interview on lad Bible taped it there just
8:58
Speaker 1: adjacent to Whitechapel. Their studios are there. But you've also
9:03
Speaker 1: got a large traditional and I'm saying not recent, but
9:06
Speaker 1: traditional immigrant community. This is one of the first places
9:10
Speaker 1: where people from Bangladesh that was part of the British
9:14
Speaker 1: Empire came to the UK and set up businesses and
9:18
Speaker 1: have restaurants and all these sorts of things. And then
9:21
Speaker 1: there was a large Jewish population that was also also
9:25
Speaker 1: part of this environment, along with other nationalities. So it
9:30
Speaker 1: was we talked about being a melting pot here in America.
9:33
Speaker 1: I don't think that people really realize the comings and
9:37
Speaker 1: goings of immigrants in London because it's all long before
9:41
Speaker 1: we ever existed as a country here in the US.
9:43
Speaker 1: Great Britain has always been an international city and they
9:47
Speaker 1: would hop right off the boat off the Thames, which
9:49
Speaker 1: by the way, is I'm not going to say it's
9:52
Speaker 1: a stone's throw. But as you start heading south, Whitechapel
9:58
Speaker 1: is on the north shore of the Thame, and as
10:01
Speaker 1: you start heading south and kind of southwest, you run
10:04
Speaker 1: right into the Tower of London Day where you know,
10:07
Speaker 1: people were held in prison and all that sort of thing.
10:11
Speaker 1: This is an ancient, ancient area. It's where the city
10:14
Speaker 1: actually kind of began all those you know, hundreds and
10:18
Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago. So this kind of dark specter
10:22
Speaker 1: that has always lingered over this area of London, it's
10:28
Speaker 1: not necessarily surprising that something so ghastly would happen there,
10:32
Speaker 1: and certainly by by the standards of those days, you know,
10:37
Speaker 1: you had violence, but to the level that Jack the
10:40
Speaker 1: Ripper quote unquote perpetrated these crimes, not nothing like this.
10:49
Speaker 1: This is why it kind of grabbed the attention of
10:53
Speaker 1: all of the you know, the newspapers and you know
10:57
Speaker 1: rags of that day, you know, because everything was really
11:00
Speaker 1: over the top with these events and people think, you
11:03
Speaker 1: know that people think that Jack the Ripper was limited
11:07
Speaker 1: to five to seven victims. It was actually there was
11:13
Speaker 1: there was what was called the White Chapel murders. It
11:18
Speaker 1: goes under different names. They actually extended out to eighteen
11:22
Speaker 1: ninety one, there were actually eleven victims, but not all
11:25
Speaker 1: of them had the same mo as Jack the Ripper.
11:29
Speaker 2: And that's why what made him think that those were
11:31
Speaker 2: part and parcel of this. Because the five Ripper cases
11:35
Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about actually do have a
11:37
Speaker 2: number of similarities. But what about the other ones? Are
11:40
Speaker 2: they dramatically different or just not? Were they earlier or later?
11:44
Speaker 2: Did you say they were later?
11:47
Speaker 1: Okay? And so I think that some people kind of
11:50
Speaker 1: believe that perhaps they were in a way of thinking,
11:56
Speaker 1: they may have been kind of a cop cat type
12:01
Speaker 1: of event, you know, that kind of went along with
12:04
Speaker 1: the narrative of of Jack the Ripper. Now, there was
12:09
Speaker 1: one case that occurred, I think it was like April
12:12
Speaker 1: the third, eighteen eighty eight. Yeah, the ones that and
12:16
Speaker 1: that's kind of outside of the descriptors for the actual
12:20
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper cases, which you know, I think ran
12:24
Speaker 1: pretty much through the month of September of eighteen eighty
12:28
Speaker 1: eight and wound up going I think the final one
12:32
Speaker 1: that they really truly tagged him with was in November
12:35
Speaker 1: of night. So they actually occurred over a very short
12:38
Speaker 1: period of time. But you had other ones, You had
12:42
Speaker 1: other ones that involved things like strangulation. You know what
12:46
Speaker 1: I'm saying, that didn't necessarily necessarily fit the mo You
12:54
Speaker 1: had one of the victims that was essentially gain raped,
12:59
Speaker 1: and they just didn't fit them.
13:03
Speaker 2: And you know what they did with that one, you
13:05
Speaker 2: mentioned the gang. You know, they actually tried that one
13:07
Speaker 2: and ended up attributing it. They even though it didn't
13:10
Speaker 2: match up, there was no evidence or anything else. They
13:13
Speaker 2: they I think were like caught up in the swell
13:16
Speaker 2: of the two and I think they just added it
13:18
Speaker 2: to it because they didn't have a solved crime with it.
13:21
Speaker 2: You know, it was a gang and it was because
13:24
Speaker 2: I read up on those It was so funny, funny,
13:27
Speaker 2: strange because when they had this one, it was different,
13:31
Speaker 2: and yet they took it to trial.
13:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, here's an interesting thing, David, you
13:37
Speaker 1: know this area, I've been uh, you know, I've been
13:41
Speaker 1: kind of you know with my amusements about this and
13:47
Speaker 1: being kind of lighthearted. But these are real people, you know,
13:50
Speaker 1: were real real people, and these were really you know, violent,
13:55
Speaker 1: violent events that affected it. But you know, one of
13:57
Speaker 1: the things, and this is kind of a thread that
13:59
Speaker 1: runs through a lot of a lot of cases, even
14:02
Speaker 1: now to this day, these were the poorest of the poor.
14:07
Speaker 1: I mean, this was a slum area. And you know,
14:10
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, I've talked to police officers that police
14:14
Speaker 1: and really impoverished areas, and it's not necessarily that the
14:20
Speaker 1: police don't want to do anything about it. Many times
14:23
Speaker 1: it's because the people that are let's see that should
14:30
Speaker 1: be the governmental benefactors of the individual that are intigen
14:33
Speaker 1: and poor, don't put resources and nothing. You know, they say,
14:36
Speaker 1: nothing's new under the sun. So the fact that these
14:40
Speaker 1: poor women who were turning tricks in dark alleys, uh,
14:45
Speaker 1: you know, with their babies maybe there and that sort
14:48
Speaker 1: of thing. You know, they're they're forgotten, easily forgotten. Now
14:53
Speaker 1: that this has happened adjacent to Buckingham Palace, uh, you know,
14:57
Speaker 1: we it very well may have been a for an
15:00
Speaker 1: outcome and it may have ceased a lot quicker. Here's
15:03
Speaker 1: an interesting little aside too, and I you know, look,
15:06
Speaker 1: I got to interject a little bit of my background
15:08
Speaker 1: relative to working serial deaths, Dave. I've only been involved
15:14
Speaker 1: in one set of serialized homicides where they weren't prostitutes,
15:19
Speaker 1: and that was a group of elderly ladies that had
15:22
Speaker 1: been strangled and sexually assault and strangled to death. Every
15:27
Speaker 1: other series, whether it was New Orleans or Atlanta over
15:31
Speaker 1: the course of my career, always always involved prostitutes every
15:36
Speaker 1: single time, So, you know, going back to the old
15:39
Speaker 1: adage of nothing new under the sun. I've never had
15:45
Speaker 1: cases though, like the Ripper where you had individuals that
15:51
Speaker 1: were mutilated, and mutilation plays a big part in this,
15:55
Speaker 1: and that's I think that that was really the start
15:57
Speaker 1: of what was going on. The cases that I worked
16:00
Speaker 1: primarily dealt with manual strangulation, literature strangulation, or execution style
16:05
Speaker 1: gunshot wents to the back of the head. But they
16:08
Speaker 1: were all to a person. Prostitutes I never worked. I
16:12
Speaker 1: know a lot of I've had colleagues, you know, that
16:16
Speaker 1: have worked cases over the years. You think of the
16:20
Speaker 1: Golden State Killer out West obviously, where you had just
16:25
Speaker 1: just random people that were being killed in their homes
16:27
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, for instance. Those poor women were not prostitutes,
16:32
Speaker 1: you know, primarily young college students, those sorts of things.
16:35
Speaker 1: But for me, and I think that a lot of
16:38
Speaker 1: people that work in death investigation most are going to
16:41
Speaker 1: be and it's that they're so easily targeted and that
16:45
Speaker 1: they're attaining some kind of thrill off of this that
16:48
Speaker 1: is the perpetrator and they're easily victimized. And again that
16:50
Speaker 1: cycles back to this idea that it makes the cases
16:54
Speaker 1: somewhat very difficult to solve. And of course, here we
16:58
Speaker 1: are all these years later, Dave, from the eighteen eighties
17:04
Speaker 1: to as we're taping right now, twenty twenty five, where
17:09
Speaker 1: these cases still give us pause to scratch our head
17:13
Speaker 1: and maybe, just maybe, as a result of recent information,
17:18
Speaker 1: we're one step closer to solving one of the biggest
17:22
Speaker 1: true crime mysteries of all time. Had the opportunity, and
17:41
Speaker 1: I've mentioned this man before, to work with a fellow
17:45
Speaker 1: named William Eckert. Doctor Eckert was a forensic pathologist, rather
17:51
Speaker 1: famous in his time, and doctor Eckert, toward the end
17:57
Speaker 1: of his career, well, I guess it was kind of
18:01
Speaker 1: later mid range of his career, traveled all over the
18:04
Speaker 1: world consulting on cases. And one of the one of
18:10
Speaker 1: the cases that he did are cases plural that he
18:15
Speaker 1: consulted on was Jack the Ripper, And you know, he
18:18
Speaker 1: was I think probably one of the first people to
18:21
Speaker 1: visit Scotland yard. He took a look at a lot
18:23
Speaker 1: of the evidence that still existed, police reports, those sorts
18:27
Speaker 1: of things, and you know, visited sites and this is
18:31
Speaker 1: back I think in the nineteen seventies, and he drew
18:35
Speaker 1: some conclusions during that period of time. And I remember asking,
18:38
Speaker 1: because I'd never really had a huge overriding interest in
18:42
Speaker 1: the Ripper cases. I just and when you work, when
18:46
Speaker 1: you're working in death investigation, it's like, it's not like
18:50
Speaker 1: people that do death investigation as a profession sit around
18:54
Speaker 1: and watch through crime. It's not like, you know, it's
18:57
Speaker 1: a busman's holiday. It's not something that we're necessarily interested in.
19:01
Speaker 1: But because he had been drawn into it, I was
19:04
Speaker 1: We had just finished up an autopsy one day, and
19:07
Speaker 1: I remember asking doctor Eckert, specifically doctor Eckert, I'm fascinated
19:13
Speaker 1: by the fact that you went to Great Britain and
19:15
Speaker 1: that you've consulted with Scotland Yard on the Ripper cases.
19:21
Speaker 1: You know, a few years back, I said, what's your
19:24
Speaker 1: overwriting opinion here? You know what you believe? And he
19:28
Speaker 1: told me at that time, and I think that this
19:30
Speaker 1: was probably pretty widely known, but to hear it coming
19:33
Speaker 1: from him, a guy that works with scalpels and dissecting
19:39
Speaker 1: knives and scissors every single day of his life and
19:43
Speaker 1: had at that point in time, for over thirty years.
19:47
Speaker 1: He pointedly said to me, this guy was skilled with
19:51
Speaker 1: edged weapons based upon everything that he had seen, and
19:56
Speaker 1: that you know that really, I'm not going to say
19:58
Speaker 1: it's sent a chill up my spine, but it did
20:00
Speaker 1: give me an insight I think into what those people
20:05
Speaker 1: may have been looking at back then, and it you know,
20:10
Speaker 1: I think that we're all of us would be fools
20:12
Speaker 1: to assume that they didn't have violent crime back then.
20:15
Speaker 1: They didn't have people that were mutilated. A lot of
20:18
Speaker 1: people carried knives. They didn't just carry knives merely to
20:22
Speaker 1: protect themselves. They carried knives because they were integral in
20:28
Speaker 1: day to day life, you know, cutting things and prying things.
20:32
Speaker 1: People carried knives back then, so it would not have
20:35
Speaker 1: been unusual for somebody to carry a knife. But when
20:38
Speaker 1: you begin to think about skill that goes to training,
20:42
Speaker 1: doesn't it. It goes to a certain touch, if you will.
20:48
Speaker 1: And so when doctor Eckert said that to me, it
20:51
Speaker 1: really kind of grabbed me.
20:53
Speaker 2: Well, Joe, when we look at these the five specific
20:57
Speaker 2: ripper murders that all showed a talent medically speaking, that's
21:07
Speaker 2: a pretty big deal when you're looking at the eighteen eighties,
21:09
Speaker 2: it's not like what we have now with the education
21:12
Speaker 2: we have. You've walked me through how medical schools have
21:15
Speaker 2: come to be and what is and isn't expected from
21:19
Speaker 2: back then. But what kind of a person would develop
21:23
Speaker 2: these kind of skills that would not be known to
21:25
Speaker 2: law enforcement? I mean, you mentioned barber, but is there
21:30
Speaker 2: any other field where a person would develop the kind
21:33
Speaker 2: of biological knowledge necessary to be able to do this.
21:38
Speaker 1: There's a plethora of them. Anybody that worked in anybody
21:46
Speaker 1: that worked in a butcher shop, anybody that worked in
21:49
Speaker 1: a slaughterhouse. For those of you that have never been
21:53
Speaker 1: to a slaughterhouse, which I have been, it's if you
21:56
Speaker 1: think that morgs are ghastly, you cannot imagine carnage on
22:03
Speaker 1: on an assembly line level. And I've I've you know,
22:07
Speaker 1: I've I've been to you know, chicken slaughter houses. I've
22:10
Speaker 1: been to hog hog uh slaughter houses, and it's it's
22:14
Speaker 1: something to behold on it. And when you're holding a
22:17
Speaker 1: knife in your hand, uh, you you just develop a
22:21
Speaker 1: skill set. It's like swinging a golf club or a
22:24
Speaker 1: baseball bat, or even using a sewing needle. It's just
22:28
Speaker 1: it's uh, or if you're a cobbler, uh, working on shoes.
22:31
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do cobbler still exist? I think they do.
22:34
Speaker 1: They do. Yeah, But you know, it's just not to
22:37
Speaker 1: say the cobblers, you know what I'm just saying. It's
22:41
Speaker 1: just a skill set. You know that like cobbling with shoes,
22:44
Speaker 1: you know, taking soles off and all that stuff. You've
22:46
Speaker 1: become really good with hammers, right, you become really good
22:49
Speaker 1: with tax and nails and all that sort of stuff.
22:51
Speaker 1: And so yeah, we've got you know, we've got groups
22:54
Speaker 1: of individuals that work at slaughterhouses. And there there were
22:58
Speaker 1: open markets. As a matter of fact, one of the
23:00
Speaker 1: biggest markets in in London is immediately adjacent to Whitechapel.
23:07
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it was that particular market
23:10
Speaker 1: supplied the royal family with a lot of their goods
23:14
Speaker 1: and they would slaughter animals, you know, right there. So
23:17
Speaker 1: you've got those individuals. It wasn't done in some distant
23:21
Speaker 1: location where to be trucked in, because they didn't truck
23:24
Speaker 1: stuff in back then. You had to do it there
23:26
Speaker 1: because they knew that the meat would ride. Then, of course,
23:30
Speaker 1: you know you had mentioned you had mentioned barbers. Well,
23:34
Speaker 1: there's a long tradition of barbers going back hundreds and
23:40
Speaker 1: hundreds of years where these individuals were not just there
23:44
Speaker 1: to cut your hair, but they were also there to
23:48
Speaker 1: do surgeries as well. That's one of the significance of
23:51
Speaker 1: the barber pole. You know, the white stripe, the blue stripe,
23:55
Speaker 1: and the red stripe. Every time you see that, those
23:58
Speaker 1: colors are emblematic of different skills sets, and that poll
24:01
Speaker 1: goes back a long long time, and that was to
24:04
Speaker 1: give people an indication that if you, you know, if
24:07
Speaker 1: you need a tumor removed from your neck, or if
24:10
Speaker 1: you need a trim, come on in, we'll take care
24:14
Speaker 1: of it. We'll take care of it. That puts the
24:17
Speaker 1: whole jack the clipper thing all in a new perspective,
24:20
Speaker 1: doesn't it. They did not offer to do surgery on
24:23
Speaker 1: me there, but I have no doubt that they would
24:26
Speaker 1: have been rather skilled. And then you have those that
24:30
Speaker 1: are involved in medicine day, you had surgeons and for
24:36
Speaker 1: many years there was a through line, a thread that
24:39
Speaker 1: ran through everything that gave you an indication that well,
24:44
Speaker 1: a lot of people have opined over the years. Everybody's
24:47
Speaker 1: got an opinion. You know, that this was some kind
24:51
Speaker 1: of maniac surgeon that was running about. And one of
24:56
Speaker 1: the indications was that I think either one or two
24:59
Speaker 1: of the women had had their wombs removed. And that's
25:03
Speaker 1: that's a you know, that's a very specific anatomical feature
25:08
Speaker 1: that you're looking for. And by the way, having worked
25:11
Speaker 1: in the morgue all those years, the two see how
25:18
Speaker 1: can I put this in order to remove female internal
25:25
Speaker 1: sex organs is not something that's easily undertaken without a
25:30
Speaker 1: level of skill, you know what I'm saying. It's something
25:32
Speaker 1: that it takes a bit. Well, first off, you have
25:35
Speaker 1: to have specific anatomical knowledge, and not to say that
25:41
Speaker 1: the uterus the womb is not located approximating the same
25:47
Speaker 1: location say in a hog or you know, in some
25:50
Speaker 1: other goat or sheep. But you know, with the way
25:54
Speaker 1: our anatomical orientation is set up, it's a bit different,
25:59
Speaker 1: and that specific, that specific organ in and of itself,
26:06
Speaker 1: a lot can be implied. Well, you know, some people
26:09
Speaker 1: thought that, you know, if the womb is being removed,
26:12
Speaker 1: that it would be for some type of medical purpose.
26:17
Speaker 1: Perhaps I don't know what that might be. Maybe it
26:21
Speaker 1: was just an exploration of female anatomy. But Dave, you
26:25
Speaker 1: know now kind of understanding just at a baseline for
26:28
Speaker 1: you and I both because neither one of us are
26:30
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists. That's if this wasn't sexualized enough, that's very sexualized.
26:37
Speaker 1: And then what are you going to do with it
26:39
Speaker 1: once you get it? Are you in it?
26:41
Speaker 2: Is it? Is it a trophy? I mean precisely, But
26:46
Speaker 2: let me ask you something quickly because I'm concerned that
26:49
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about an intense knowledge driven anatomical
26:57
Speaker 2: you know, pulling out of something, and yet we're talking
27:00
Speaker 2: about Whitechapel, which is dark, dank, scary at its best.
27:03
Speaker 2: So when doing this type of carnage require light to
27:10
Speaker 2: do it, I mean, when you need to have enough
27:12
Speaker 2: light to see what you were doing.
27:14
Speaker 1: Well, brother, that goes to skill again, right, I mean,
27:18
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that there are people out there that
27:21
Speaker 1: could do surgery in the dark, however, or autopsy in
27:28
Speaker 1: the dark. First off, I've cut myself many times at autopsies.
27:31
Speaker 1: I'd certainly be missing a finger, you know, if you
27:34
Speaker 1: try to do it in the dark. But you know,
27:36
Speaker 1: you still have. It's that tactile nature. So let's just
27:40
Speaker 1: say they're using I don't know if that area was electrified.
27:44
Speaker 1: I doubt that it was at that early on. I
27:47
Speaker 1: would imagine street lights were probably I'm sure that they
27:50
Speaker 1: had gas lamps at that point in time, but you know,
27:54
Speaker 1: you're still talking about I guess they could have had.
27:57
Speaker 1: I can't imagine the poorest of the poor in the
27:59
Speaker 1: slum having access to a gas line coming into a crib,
28:04
Speaker 1: you know, a prostitute. And some of these women were
28:06
Speaker 1: found in yards, Dave. They're founding yards and alleyways. They're
28:11
Speaker 1: not necessarily found within the crib itself. So to have
28:16
Speaker 1: them kind of lying about that goes to your point,
28:20
Speaker 1: doesn't it. This was done outdoors at night with whatever
28:28
Speaker 1: this individual is carrying on their person. And here's another
28:32
Speaker 1: interesting tidbit to all of this. It's this idea of
28:38
Speaker 1: the leather apron. You know, because you've got many of
28:42
Speaker 1: the prosecutes that were interviewed at that particular time had
28:46
Speaker 1: stated that whoever this individual was, he he has a
28:53
Speaker 1: rather hair suit, mustache, and he's wearing a leather apron. Well,
28:59
Speaker 1: who wear who in the world would wear a leather apron. Well,
29:02
Speaker 1: back then you didn't. I mean, they had vulcanized rubber.
29:06
Speaker 1: But you know, in the Morgue people wore rubber aprons,
29:13
Speaker 1: but not back then, people all wore leather. Surgeons wore
29:16
Speaker 1: leather aprons, if not cloth, something that they could take
29:19
Speaker 1: off and be washed, but leather aprons even I've seen
29:22
Speaker 1: images of them from the Civil War, for instance, and
29:26
Speaker 1: there are things that can be you can apply water
29:29
Speaker 1: and soap to it and just kind of wash it off.
29:32
Speaker 1: And butchers wore leather aprons. Medical professionals probably wore leather aprons.
29:39
Speaker 1: I think the big question is would a barber wear
29:42
Speaker 1: a leather apron or would they merely wear some kind
29:46
Speaker 1: of overcoat, you know, or like almost like a lab coat.
29:51
Speaker 1: But I would suspect that many of them wore leather aprons. Well,
29:54
Speaker 1: why would you want to do that? And why would
29:57
Speaker 1: that individual be walking around? Who's gonna you know, I
30:00
Speaker 1: guess if you saw somebody back then with a leather
30:03
Speaker 1: apron on walking about, you would assume that there's some
30:06
Speaker 1: kind of tradesmen right that they're you know, uh, that
30:09
Speaker 1: they're going from, you know, wherever it is they make
30:13
Speaker 1: barrels or make shoes, or or maybe working a butcher
30:17
Speaker 1: in a slaughterhouse, they're going to wear a leather apron.
30:20
Speaker 1: But that, you know that that goes to the idea
30:23
Speaker 1: that the individuals trying to protect their clothing and trying
30:26
Speaker 1: to protect themselves from from being splashed with blood, not
30:29
Speaker 1: that they necessarily had the DNA h Carl Einstein or
30:33
Speaker 1: hadn't even come a wrong yet to invent blood typing,
30:36
Speaker 1: that that would be a couple of decades later. You
30:40
Speaker 1: know it, You're you're you're trying to protect your clothing
30:45
Speaker 1: so that you don't get uh, you know, spattered with
30:48
Speaker 1: blood at that point in time. So you've got these
30:51
Speaker 1: little threads that kind of run run along with this
30:55
Speaker 1: individual where you're looking at the subject that would have
31:00
Speaker 1: done it. And we can talk all day about motivation.
31:03
Speaker 1: Is it is it an individual that and I think
31:08
Speaker 1: that we you and I both day can answer in
31:11
Speaker 1: the affirmative that absolutely hated women because we don't have
31:14
Speaker 1: any male victims. There's no male victims that we know
31:18
Speaker 1: about from that period of time that are disemboweled, which
31:22
Speaker 1: we have. We've got throat throats being cut, we've got
31:26
Speaker 1: disfigurement in one where it's just ghastly. If you've ever
31:31
Speaker 1: seen some of the images where they're twisted and mangled,
31:36
Speaker 1: I mean, and and the amount, the amount of trauma
31:39
Speaker 1: that these poor souls were subjected to, Dave, this would
31:46
Speaker 1: take a copious amount of time to do this. This
31:52
Speaker 1: is not like something that where you stick a knife
31:55
Speaker 1: into their throat or slit their throat and then walk away.
32:01
Speaker 1: This is somebody that truly truly hated these women. Who
32:05
Speaker 1: knows what this kind of seed of evil was that
32:10
Speaker 1: you know kind of endwell this, but I do know
32:13
Speaker 1: this that with every slice, with every cut, with every puncture,
32:18
Speaker 1: with every mutilation, with every droplet of blood that was
32:24
Speaker 1: found pulled in the yards, in the rooms and on
32:32
Speaker 1: the streets of Whitechapel, that stain to this day it
32:40
Speaker 1: still exists. Dave. I'm viewing you here on the camera
32:57
Speaker 1: and Bubba looks like you've got a fresh haircut. YEA,
33:00
Speaker 1: thank you your hair. You look good man. I got
33:04
Speaker 1: to tell you, yeah, dude's got a great, great crown
33:08
Speaker 1: of white hair. I'll tell you what. Well, uh, there's
33:13
Speaker 1: a barber we're going to talk about.
33:15
Speaker 2: Me and Santa have great hair on her head and
33:17
Speaker 2: great bellies above our way. So there you go.
33:20
Speaker 1: Oh man, come on, old belly. Uh yet the barber
33:25
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is a fellow named Aaron Kasminsky,
33:31
Speaker 1: and he is known to have been a Polish immigrant.
33:38
Speaker 2: Can I add something here very quickly?
33:40
Speaker 1: Yeah?
33:40
Speaker 2: Sure, all right. It's something I didn't know about the
33:43
Speaker 2: story until you and I started talking about and we
33:45
Speaker 2: talked about it from the end and going back that
33:49
Speaker 2: there was a lot of press coverage of these murders.
33:52
Speaker 2: There was a lot of chatter social media. Would have
33:55
Speaker 2: been said of Twitter, although people might not have used Twitter,
33:58
Speaker 2: but you know what I mean, It was a much
34:00
Speaker 2: talked about thing. They were constantly throwing out ideas and
34:04
Speaker 2: the media was highly involved in sharing rumors and drawings
34:08
Speaker 2: of people that were victimized or possible suspects. This was
34:12
Speaker 2: a case that drew a lot of attention and sold
34:15
Speaker 2: a lot of papers. And in looking at what some
34:19
Speaker 2: of the investigators did to try to find, you know,
34:23
Speaker 2: a solution, they it was just amazing to me. This
34:27
Speaker 2: was not something that when you mentioned it earlier. First
34:31
Speaker 2: of all, it only lasted a couple of months, you know,
34:34
Speaker 2: in these five main ones. Now, the others could certainly
34:36
Speaker 2: be part of it, but just these five. We're talking
34:39
Speaker 2: from August thirty first to November the ninth in eighteen
34:43
Speaker 2: eighty eight. That's not a very big window. And I
34:47
Speaker 2: don't assume that mary Ann Nichols was butchered the way
34:51
Speaker 2: she was as a first attack. And it just seems
34:55
Speaker 2: like they did escalate from there. From Maryann Nichols attack
34:58
Speaker 2: to Annie Chapman's attack to Elizabeth Stride, each one got
35:03
Speaker 2: progressively different and worse. But there was that dread running
35:06
Speaker 2: through that tied them all together. So there's got to
35:09
Speaker 2: be more.
35:10
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, I think that there has to be.
35:14
Speaker 1: And there's a boldness that, you know that kind of
35:17
Speaker 1: sets in with this, but you know, in in the
35:21
Speaker 1: modern context now, I think that for us, what's so
35:27
Speaker 1: striking about this recent news that has dropped. Not only
35:32
Speaker 1: do we have a person that is named now because
35:39
Speaker 1: of one alleged sampling that has been done relative to
35:45
Speaker 1: a genetic finding, this Aaron Kominsky, but we have to
35:53
Speaker 1: think about the source. You know, where did this come from.
35:57
Speaker 1: We've got this connection now from DNA linkage from a
36:04
Speaker 1: shawl that was possessed and owned by essentially the fifth
36:12
Speaker 1: victim from September thirtieth, eighteen eighty eight, Catherine Edwardson and Dave.
36:21
Speaker 1: I've seen the shawl. The shawl. You know, the shawl
36:23
Speaker 1: is nothing like I thought that it would look like
36:26
Speaker 1: because I was thinking, you know, when I think shawl,
36:30
Speaker 1: I think kind of a loose woven you know, kind
36:36
Speaker 1: of what am I saying? Almost looks like an Afghan
36:41
Speaker 1: I guess, kind of, you know what I'm saying. It's
36:45
Speaker 1: not like that. The shawl is actually even today, I'm
36:48
Speaker 1: actually sitting here, you know, taking a look at this
36:51
Speaker 1: thing is actually quite beautiful. It's a it's in two colors.
37:02
Speaker 1: It's tightly, tightly woven. I would imagine that this that
37:07
Speaker 1: this shawl is primarily made of wool, and you know,
37:13
Speaker 1: Great Britain was known for the wool trade, and it's
37:15
Speaker 1: been dyed. It's in two different colors. One color is
37:18
Speaker 1: this striking kind of light blue color, and the rest
37:25
Speaker 1: of it there's a distinctive dividing line that has almost
37:29
Speaker 1: a silky looking appearance to it, that's a copper tone
37:34
Speaker 1: to it. And it's it's tightly woven. It's it's literally
37:38
Speaker 1: something that if you put it around your shoulders, you're
37:44
Speaker 1: not going to uh, you're not going to fill the breeze,
37:51
Speaker 1: if you will, the cold kind of seeping through. It's
37:56
Speaker 1: quite lovely actually to see. So when I think about
38:00
Speaker 1: out the h the deposition of any kind of of
38:07
Speaker 1: DNA or biological evidence that might be found on there,
38:10
Speaker 1: you could see how it could get down into those
38:12
Speaker 1: really tightly woven fibers and be retained. Here's here's kind
38:18
Speaker 1: of the interesting thing though, it's through this shawl. And
38:21
Speaker 1: by the way, this this individual's uh Russell Edwards is
38:25
Speaker 1: his name. Who is the actual owner of the shawl?
38:28
Speaker 2: And was this something passed down? Was he related or
38:31
Speaker 2: is a body auction?
38:32
Speaker 1: That's the one. That's the one trick to this that
38:35
Speaker 1: I've been unable to kind of put together succinctly. I
38:40
Speaker 1: do know that this this journey starts back in two
38:43
Speaker 1: thousand and six, so we're talking now, uh to two
38:49
Speaker 1: decades I guess now, well one almost two decades since
38:54
Speaker 1: this journey kind of started. Relative to this, this this item,
39:00
Speaker 1: you know, what's the provenance of this? How did he
39:03
Speaker 1: actually come into possession of this? And he started looking
39:09
Speaker 1: at attempting because he knew what he had was connected
39:14
Speaker 1: to a victim. You know, you would think that something
39:19
Speaker 1: like a shawl like this would be retained, you know,
39:23
Speaker 1: by the Metropolitan Police, which is Scotland yard. But you
39:28
Speaker 1: know how many thousands and thousands of crimes have they
39:32
Speaker 1: had that involve physical evidence? Since anybody wondering eighteen eighty
39:37
Speaker 1: something's there's not enough room in the world to store
39:41
Speaker 1: all of this stuff.
39:42
Speaker 2: In particular case of that shawl, though, it actually was
39:45
Speaker 2: a sergeant on duty and who actually he was acting
39:50
Speaker 2: Sergeant Amos Simpson is the guy who was near the
39:54
Speaker 2: crime scene and he's the one that got Catherine shawl
39:59
Speaker 2: and he's the one that passed it down to family
40:01
Speaker 2: members until it pops up in two thousand and seven
40:04
Speaker 2: and author Russell Edwards buys it. But according to Amos,
40:09
Speaker 2: you know Simpson, this was the shaw that he picked
40:11
Speaker 2: up near the scene. Well again, but where's the where's
40:16
Speaker 2: the trade the Yeah?
40:17
Speaker 1: I know exactly. You begin to think about the provenance
40:20
Speaker 1: of the of the Let me see, how can I
40:24
Speaker 1: say this of the evidence? Yeah, the chain of custody,
40:28
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, thank you? I had did I did too?
40:32
Speaker 2: I was looking at you, going please, yeah, there's no
40:36
Speaker 2: change of custody here. We have to try to Amos
40:38
Speaker 2: Simpson recovered this shawl and then because they didn't have
40:43
Speaker 2: paper bags, I don't know what they had then. I
40:44
Speaker 2: was gonna say, didn't have plastic bags. But they would
40:46
Speaker 2: have used paper bags or cloth to store something like this, right, probably.
40:50
Speaker 1: Cloth, I would imagine, particularly for a bloody item that
40:53
Speaker 1: they didn't want to And they didn't wear gloves, so
40:56
Speaker 1: you would unless they had leather gloves on.
40:58
Speaker 2: Right.
40:59
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, you imagine taking those off and sticking them
41:05
Speaker 1: back in your pocket and your wife says, hey, can
41:07
Speaker 1: I bar your gloves and all manner of things that
41:10
Speaker 1: you've that you've touched. But yeah, and so here, here's
41:14
Speaker 1: here's the thing for me. If he's present, this acting sergeant,
41:18
Speaker 1: if he's present at the scene, he's picked this thing up,
41:24
Speaker 1: you would expect you would expect the victims DNA to
41:29
Speaker 1: be on it. Okay, So what's the sourcing? What you know?
41:33
Speaker 1: Where where did her DNA come from? Uh? Was it
41:37
Speaker 1: blood or was it some other bodily fluid that had
41:42
Speaker 1: leached onto the surface. But here's the big thing, Dave,
41:46
Speaker 1: here's a big thing. If we're looking at Aaron Kaminsky,
41:52
Speaker 1: who by the way, is Polish, but he's also Jewish,
41:56
Speaker 1: and there's been a thread of anti Semitism that has
42:00
Speaker 1: and through this for a long long time, I mean
42:03
Speaker 1: dating well back decades, I think, you know, relative to
42:09
Speaker 1: suspects where they were trying to put it on a
42:12
Speaker 1: particular member of an immigrant population. I think that we
42:17
Speaker 1: have to take due care in that as well, because
42:20
Speaker 1: if Aaron Kaminsky was known to anybody with the met
42:25
Speaker 1: and they had it in for him, how did they
42:29
Speaker 1: you know, did they get a blood source for him
42:32
Speaker 1: or is And it would be also important is this
42:35
Speaker 1: a seminal? This is this ejaculate that was left behind
42:39
Speaker 1: on the shawl? And now we can say, you know,
42:41
Speaker 1: I think you can say pretty confidently that if it's ejaculate,
42:46
Speaker 1: then that bit of DNA would be harder to come by, say,
42:52
Speaker 1: for instance, if it were you know, a touch of
42:54
Speaker 1: his blood that was placed on it or whatever. But
42:56
Speaker 1: you know, that still doesn't make sense because as I said,
42:59
Speaker 1: blood type, and it's not something that was done at
43:02
Speaker 1: that point in time. It's not something certainly you know,
43:05
Speaker 1: blood typing itself. I mentioned Carl Landsteiner a few moments ago.
43:10
Speaker 1: Blood typing itself when it first came into being, was
43:13
Speaker 1: not for the purposes of crime science on any level.
43:18
Speaker 1: It was trying to find a match that we could
43:21
Speaker 1: do transfusions. And again we could do a whole episode
43:24
Speaker 1: on that. They actually used to try to use Lamb's
43:28
Speaker 1: blood to transfuse people with and as you can imagine
43:32
Speaker 1: and work out too well, sheep's blood and so you
43:36
Speaker 1: know that, you know, trial and error and so. But anyway,
43:40
Speaker 1: I digress the fact that you do have both of
43:44
Speaker 1: these individuals, the victim and Aaron Kuzminski. You have his
43:49
Speaker 1: DNA that is present here and Dave, this is not
43:52
Speaker 1: something that's passing. I don't want you to think that
43:56
Speaker 1: that this is something that you know, no insult intended,
44:01
Speaker 1: but it's not something that the London Sun merely conjured up. Okay,
44:11
Speaker 1: this was actually written up in the Journal of Forensic Science,
44:15
Speaker 1: which is one of the most esteemed academic journals in
44:19
Speaker 1: forensic science that exists. This paper, I think, first appeared
44:23
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. This is something that has been in
44:30
Speaker 1: the process of occurring low these many years. Now here's
44:35
Speaker 1: the big question. Okay, just because you have and I
44:40
Speaker 1: hate to rain on everybody's parade here, but just because
44:43
Speaker 1: you have Aaron Kosminski's DNA deposition on that shawl, which
44:48
Speaker 1: again you cannot necessarily verify the provenance of.
44:53
Speaker 2: Okay, it would not hold up in court.
44:55
Speaker 1: No, not in our course. I don't even think that
44:58
Speaker 1: it would hold up in the courts then, But does
45:01
Speaker 1: it mean that he's necessarily connected to the other homicides
45:08
Speaker 1: that occur. So you've only got connectivity to this one
45:12
Speaker 1: individual right now, And the odds that they're going to
45:18
Speaker 1: have any other kind of physical evidence that can tie
45:21
Speaker 1: it back, that can tie it back to this individual
45:25
Speaker 1: I think would probably be slim and none right now.
45:29
Speaker 1: And at this point, Tom at least that's to my
45:31
Speaker 1: way of thinking. I don't know how you feel about it,
45:34
Speaker 1: but that's just my thought.
45:36
Speaker 2: I actually I did the same thing in my head, Joe.
45:39
Speaker 2: I pulled a Nancy Grace and played Devil's advocate for
45:42
Speaker 2: a minute, and I'm like, Okay, if we were in
45:44
Speaker 2: a court of law, this would never make it because
45:46
Speaker 2: of the chain of custody on the shawl in and
45:48
Speaker 2: of itself. We have to trust Amos Simpson, and we
45:51
Speaker 2: don't know anything about him in terms of his He
45:53
Speaker 2: could be another Mark Furman for all we know. Yeah,
45:56
Speaker 2: but in the court of public opinion, we actually have
45:59
Speaker 2: a shawl that was from the crime scene. We have
46:03
Speaker 2: an actual police officer who collected the shaw as evidence,
46:06
Speaker 2: you know, for the future. But they couldn't do anything
46:08
Speaker 2: with it then it was just a piece of evidence
46:11
Speaker 2: that was attached to the victim. And so assuming we
46:14
Speaker 2: can make a few assumptions here and based on those
46:18
Speaker 2: assumptions that everything's the way it should be, then testing
46:23
Speaker 2: and coming back with a positive result that actually is
46:27
Speaker 2: a person who actually fits the profile of the potential
46:31
Speaker 2: suspect in the crime. I think it's again part of
46:34
Speaker 2: public opinion, we could get a conviction.
46:36
Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you the met Scotland Yard,
46:38
Speaker 1: they actually had a Kosminsky Komensky am I pronouncing not
46:43
Speaker 1: correctly Cosminsky. They actually had an individual listed on their
46:55
Speaker 1: suspect list, but they had have it listed with a
46:59
Speaker 1: first name. But they did in fact say that the
47:03
Speaker 1: individual was in an insane asylum. And as it turns out, uh,
47:09
Speaker 1: this individual wasn't an insane asylum, uh, and eventually died
47:15
Speaker 1: in one and of all things, he had been committed
47:19
Speaker 1: are you ready for this? For threatening his sister with
47:22
Speaker 1: a knife, and he had had you know, he had
47:25
Speaker 1: had other problems quote unquote, if you will along the way. So, yeah,
47:31
Speaker 1: does he does he fit a particular type? Well? Yeah,
47:36
Speaker 1: I'd say that he would be a good candidate if
47:39
Speaker 1: you and I were working a case like this now,
47:42
Speaker 1: he would certainly be somebody I would want to sit
47:45
Speaker 1: down and have as the let's keep this British here
47:48
Speaker 1: to have a chin wag with over you know, over
47:52
Speaker 1: his whereabouts and his connectivity to any of these women,
47:56
Speaker 1: where he was domiciled, where he was living at this
47:59
Speaker 1: particular time. Was he actually functioning as a barber? And
48:03
Speaker 1: they don't just here's something else that's interesting. They don't
48:06
Speaker 1: just list his occupation as a barber but also a hairdresser.
48:11
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, you know, is he attending to women?
48:14
Speaker 1: Because in the modern modern parlance, you know, when you
48:17
Speaker 1: think hairdresser, I don't know about you. I still go
48:21
Speaker 1: to a guy named Pete to get my hair cut.
48:24
Speaker 1: I don't go to a hairdresser. Hairdresser that term is
48:27
Speaker 1: generally associated with women having their hairstyle Wow, isn't that
48:32
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating as well when you begin to think
48:34
Speaker 1: about that. And I know I'm running kind of far
48:36
Speaker 1: afield here, but here he is lingering over over ladies perhaps,
48:42
Speaker 1: and he's quote unquote dressing their hair, and all the
48:45
Speaker 1: while he's circulating around them with sharp objects, you know,
48:51
Speaker 1: fascinated by them. And I can't imagine that a prostitute
48:55
Speaker 1: necessarily would have the type of money that would be
48:58
Speaker 1: required to go to a formal hairdresser. I've actually had
49:05
Speaker 1: cases involving serialized homicides, one in particular that stands out
49:09
Speaker 1: that I had a gentleman that every time he would
49:12
Speaker 1: go and get into a fight with his girlfriend, he
49:18
Speaker 1: would go out and kill a prostitute. And so there's
49:22
Speaker 1: that transference of anger, you know, that takes place. I
49:25
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just look, we could speculate about this
49:29
Speaker 1: all day long, but I think that it's interesting. It's
49:33
Speaker 1: certainly interesting. I felt like that you and I were
49:37
Speaker 1: you know, that we needed to talk about this on
49:39
Speaker 1: body backs, because let's face it, whether you're interested in
49:46
Speaker 1: crime science or true crime or not, you have to
49:50
Speaker 1: admit that after all of these years, as we look
49:55
Speaker 1: back through decades and article and verbiage and conversations and
50:02
Speaker 1: whispers and rumors and everything. When it comes down to it,
50:07
Speaker 1: those events that occurred in Whitechapel all those years ago,
50:15
Speaker 1: that was really the first time that we begin to
50:18
Speaker 1: think about a serialized event. Now, obviously it wasn't called
50:23
Speaker 1: that back then, but this is the first, I believe,
50:28
Speaker 1: and certainly the most widely known serial perpetrator in history.
50:37
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.