Latest / The Morning Edition / Will the Kyle and Jackie O implosion unleash Sandilands globally?

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Will the Kyle and Jackie O implosion unleash Sandilands globally? · The Morning Edition

• 0:03
  S1: As much as Australians love to hate Kyle Sandilands and
• 0:07
  S1: Jackie O, who for so long ruled Australia's most expensive
• 0:11
  S1: radio program, the implosion of their show is consequential and
• 0:16
  S1: not just in a business sense. Though if Sandilands is
• 0:19
  S1: successful in the lawsuit he launched against his former employer
• 0:23
  S1: this week, it could take down the entire radio network.
• 0:26
  S1: I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to The Morning
• 0:29
  S1: Edition from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald today.
• 0:34
  S1: Media writer Callum Jaspin on whether Kyle Sandilands might take
• 0:38
  S1: his brand to another platform and turn it into a
• 0:41
  S1: political force with an even greater focus on the grotesque.
• 0:46
  S1: And what's happened to Jackie O. It's March the 25th. Callum,
• 0:54
  S1: welcome back to the podcast.
• 0:56
  S2: Thanks for having me.
• 0:58
  S1: Okay. This week, Kyle Sandilands launched legal action against the
• 1:02
  S1: radio company Arn for sacking him. Tell us, what is
• 1:06
  S1: this stoush all about?
• 1:08
  S2: Well, I think it can really be boiled down to
• 1:11
  S2: a case of flying too close to the sun. Kyle
• 1:15
  S2: and Jackie O have been a mainstay in Australian media
• 1:18
  S2: for more than 25 years, and for a big chunk
• 1:20
  S2: of that, they've been some of the highest paid yet
• 1:23
  S2: most popular and controversial characters. On Radio.
• 1:28
  S3: Australia's most controversial media performer, Kyle Sandilands, has escaped punishment
• 1:33
  S3: again for one of his offensive on air traffic.
• 1:36
  S4: Conversations about sex. Plus, female staff recorded using the toilet.
• 1:41
  S5: And the boys will try and figure out who's made
• 1:44
  S5: that we.
• 1:46
  S6: And what exactly will it take for commercial radio shock
• 1:49
  S6: jock Kyle Sandilands to get the sack? In the past
• 1:52
  S6: two days, sponsors have been deserting the Kyle and Jackie
• 1:54
  S6: O show in droves after Mr. Sandilands made some puerile,
• 1:58
  S6: sexist comments about a female journalist.
• 2:01
  S7: Some fat slag on Telegraph website. I'm sorry. News.com.au has
• 2:06
  S7: already branded it a disaster.
• 2:08
  S8: A disaster.
• 2:10
  S7: What a what a fat bit of thing you are.
• 2:12
  S2: But a major part of their bargaining power has to
• 2:15
  S2: this point, been. Well, if you don't want us, someone
• 2:18
  S2: else would. The story has really ramped up in the
• 2:21
  S2: past few years after the duo launched into Melbourne, and
• 2:26
  S2: they were handed an astonishing $200 million, ten year contract
• 2:31
  S2: in 2023 by their employers, Arn media. Now, the backdrop
• 2:38
  S2: of this most recent stoush has been that since launching
• 2:42
  S2: into Melbourne in April 2024, it really couldn't have gone
• 2:46
  S2: much worse from both a ratings and advertiser perspective. And
• 2:52
  S2: on February 20th this year, after Kyle had already that
• 2:56
  S2: Friday morning, clearly maybe woken up on the wrong side
• 2:59
  S2: of bed, but he'd spent the morning berating the show's
• 3:03
  S2: producers for not being up to scratch. And then later,
• 3:06
  S2: he turned his focus to Jackie O, accusing her of
• 3:09
  S2: being off with the fairies while looking into astrology charts
• 3:13
  S2: on that show relating to the former Prince Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.
• 3:17
  S9: Oh, it's affecting other things, like your fixation on this
• 3:20
  S9: has made you almost unworkable.
• 3:24
  S10: Oh, it's not that bad. Oh.
• 3:27
  S9: You're not talking. I'm talking.
• 3:28
  S10: You do that like that's not fair.
• 3:30
  S9: Like I it's but it's but it's actually true. But you, you,
• 3:34
  S9: you might have done that in five minutes, but you're
• 3:36
  S9: off with the fairies with this shit.
• 3:37
  S10: Tell me where. No, no, no, tell me where. I've
• 3:39
  S10: been off with the fairies during the show.
• 3:41
  S9: I don't have to. I don't have to prove anything.
• 3:42
  S9: You do.
• 3:43
  S10: You can't accuse me of doing something.
• 3:44
  S9: Listen to the. Listen to the programme. You'll hear yourself.
• 3:48
  S10: Oh, no. Just give me one example.
• 3:49
  S9: Be aware of what's really going on.
• 3:52
  S10: Kyle, I totally am offended by you saying something.
• 3:58
  S2: He sort of said live on air, that everyone else
• 4:02
  S2: is thinking the same thing in this building. You don't
• 4:04
  S2: give a shit. Now, she didn't return to the show
• 4:08
  S2: the following week and the week after that on the
• 4:10
  S2: Tuesday evening. Arne releases a statement saying that her contract
• 4:14
  S2: had been terminated after she informed the company she could
• 4:17
  S2: no longer work with Sandilands. So I guess to sum
• 4:22
  S2: up the show's success in Sydney over the past two decades,
• 4:26
  S2: for anyone who hasn't listened but sort of knows the formula.
• 4:31
  S2: I'll leave this to Kyle's lawyers now. This is an
• 4:34
  S2: extract from his statement of claim filed to the federal
• 4:37
  S2: court over the weekend. Quote, it was high energy and controversial,
• 4:42
  S2: involving the broadcast, amongst other things, material that was irreverent
• 4:46
  S2: and deliberately provocative, including using crude humour, ribald commentary and
• 4:51
  S2: sexual innuendo. Banter and tension between Mr. Sandilands and Miss
• 4:55
  S2: Henderson was a central dynamic to the show. Mr. Sandilands
• 4:59
  S2: generally performed the role of the dominant and abrasive personality,
• 5:02
  S2: who was deliberately outrageous and often offensive, whilst Miss Henderson
• 5:06
  S2: played a moderating role as a warmer and more emotionally
• 5:10
  S2: attuned character. The statement of claim says.
• 5:14
  S1: And so if I've got this right, Callum is is
• 5:16
  S1: Kyle Sandilands main argument that essentially the Arn radio network
• 5:23
  S1: paid him for his out there behaviour and therefore to
• 5:26
  S1: sack him for that same behaviour is invalid because he
• 5:29
  S1: actually committed no serious misconduct or breach of contract. Like
• 5:33
  S1: is essentially that what the judge is going to have
• 5:35
  S1: to judge on?
• 5:36
  S2: Well, again, it's hard to know. But if we're to
• 5:39
  S2: take Sandilands as lawyer's word for it, not only was
• 5:43
  S2: that consistent with the past behaviour, but he sort of
• 5:46
  S2: claims that he was doing what was actually asked of him. Now,
• 5:51
  S2: the contract says that Sandilands and his lawyers reckon that
• 5:55
  S2: this was absolutely no different to the car on Jackie O.
• 5:58
  S2: We've known for so long and that in fact, he,
• 6:00
  S2: as we've all sort of said in the past, is
• 6:02
  S2: that he's said and done much, much worse. His lawyers
• 6:06
  S2: wrote that the exchange was congruent with the style, tone
• 6:08
  S2: and nature of the show and the robust character that
• 6:11
  S2: Arn desired. Now, that last word desired suggests this was
• 6:15
  S2: a tried and tested formula that Arn had specifically asked for,
• 6:19
  S2: and Kyle was playing into intentionally. They say there was
• 6:22
  S2: no breach, and what does seem apparent is that while
• 6:25
  S2: Kyle may have an argument, Henderson has now deviated and
• 6:29
  S2: it's left all three parties in a tight spot.
• 6:33
  S1: Okay, so that brings us up to today. We know
• 6:35
  S1: that this fallout has just been a massive gossip story,
• 6:38
  S1: but it's also a really unique business story. Tell us why.
• 6:43
  S2: So I don't think the stakes have ever really been
• 6:47
  S2: higher for a media company than they are with this deal.
• 6:51
  S2: And that's for any kind of media, let alone radio.
• 6:54
  S2: This kind of money really is astronomical now. For the
• 6:57
  S2: first time again on Monday evening, we got a bit
• 7:01
  S2: of a look into the actual details of this contract. Now,
• 7:05
  S2: Sandilands claims he is still owed upwards of 85 million.
• 7:10
  S2: There was a breakdown in sort of just how he
• 7:13
  S2: has paid. That included a $7.4 million upfront annual fee.
• 7:17
  S2: It included a $200,000 per year consultancy fee, licensing fees
• 7:22
  S2: and a $120,000 per year flight allowance. Now, I think
• 7:27
  S2: probably any listeners would probably get better bang for their
• 7:31
  S2: buck than their Qantas frequent flyer points on that. But
• 7:34
  S2: sort of regardless of what you think, radio hosts just
• 7:37
  S2: don't have the same kind of cut through that they
• 7:40
  S2: once did. As share of listening has been impacted by
• 7:43
  S2: things like watching TikTok reels or listening to podcasts on
• 7:48
  S2: Apple and Spotify. And as part of that, content has
• 7:51
  S2: just become generally more globalized. But at the same time,
• 7:55
  S2: Kyle and Jackie O at the time of this deal
• 7:57
  S2: were becoming more popular. They got their best ever share
• 8:00
  S2: result in the third share of 2023. And Arne had
• 8:05
  S2: this unique opportunity and they wanted to make the most
• 8:08
  S2: of it. So what they decided was they would take
• 8:10
  S2: the show that was, you know, for 20 years dominant
• 8:14
  S2: in Sydney to the three other markets that they had
• 8:17
  S2: the Kiss network in, that being Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide.
• 8:20
  S2: Melbourne was the first one. Melbourne is the biggest radio
• 8:24
  S2: market in Australia. So they thought, well, look, if this
• 8:27
  S2: show has been so successful in Sydney, we have an
• 8:28
  S2: even bigger opportunity in Melbourne. But the important point here
• 8:33
  S2: is that with $20 million per year, paying them this
• 8:38
  S2: much would only work if the show was successful elsewhere.
• 8:41
  S2: Because the money that you're saving on on air talent
• 8:45
  S2: on production team's individual marketing, less localized content, it can
• 8:50
  S2: only be replaced if this show is a juggernaut and
• 8:54
  S2: that that is replicated into Melbourne. Now, interestingly, there wasn't
• 8:58
  S2: actually a heap of criticism of the deal at the time.
• 9:01
  S2: I guess that says something about just how successful they
• 9:03
  S2: were that people thought that this maybe made sense. But
• 9:07
  S2: in radio terms, it's a little bit like having the
• 9:10
  S2: AFL or the NRL in television. As long as you
• 9:13
  S2: have them, you'll get ratings and therefore advertising dollars, and
• 9:16
  S2: without them you lose a potential massive audience. But it
• 9:20
  S2: was maybe a bit presumptuous to assume that Melbourne would
• 9:22
  S2: take to them and the numbers would simply be replicated.
• 9:26
  S1: And we know that ever since a Carl Sandilands contract
• 9:29
  S1: was torn up last week, that the impact on Arn,
• 9:32
  S1: it was just immediate, wasn't it?
• 9:34
  S2: Yeah, to put it bluntly, it has torn apart Arn.
• 9:38
  S2: The company is now worth less than a third of
• 9:41
  S2: what it was worth when they handed them the deal
• 9:43
  S2: on Monday. The company's market value dropped below 100 million,
• 9:48
  S2: and it was only months after their sort of immediately
• 9:51
  S2: disastrous launch into Melbourne that had flopped. We were reporting
• 9:55
  S2: that ALM was preparing to make $20 million in cuts
• 9:58
  S2: and cut 50 staff. These continued as advertiser share continued
• 10:02
  S2: to fall. They've now cut more than 250 jobs since then,
• 10:08
  S2: and offshored several of their sort of more back end functions.
• 10:13
  S2: The fact that the show never really got out of
• 10:16
  S2: eighth place at breakfast in Melbourne meant that advertisers just
• 10:20
  S2: went elsewhere, and this was obviously in combination with an
• 10:23
  S2: activist campaign by the mad fucking witches. And all of
• 10:26
  S2: that just really spelt this situation where things went from
• 10:30
  S2: bad to worse. The show contributed to Aaron losing 16%
• 10:34
  S2: of its advertising revenue in 2025 alone. That equates to
• 10:39
  S2: 28 million. So the knock on effect of your breakfast
• 10:44
  S2: show flopping, which is really meant to set up the
• 10:46
  S2: whole day for a station, can't be understated.
• 10:51
  S1: After the break.
• 10:52
  S2: The view was sort of, look, here's this crass duo
• 10:54
  S2: who are going to come to Melbourne. They're openly bragging,
• 10:57
  S2: or at least Sandilands is about doing zero work to
• 11:00
  S2: try and win over the Melbourne audience. They barely made
• 11:03
  S2: a trip down to Melbourne, and they want you to
• 11:05
  S2: be aware of the fact that they're getting paid 10
• 11:08
  S2: million bucks each a year to do so.
• 11:15
  S1: Okay, but what does it actually matter if this company tanks?
• 11:18
  S1: Like walk us through that.
• 11:20
  S2: If we do get to a point where Arn is
• 11:22
  S2: forced to pay out what Sandilands claims he's owed more
• 11:25
  S2: than 85 million, it could prove existential for the company.
• 11:29
  S2: And now that's important for a few reasons, one of
• 11:33
  S2: them being that whatever you think of The Car and
• 11:37
  S2: Jackie O show, they are a uniquely Australian, well sourced,
• 11:40
  S2: local piece of content that is coming out of Australia,
• 11:45
  S2: and it's harder and harder to come by at the moment,
• 11:47
  S2: as everything from talent to advertising dollars are scooped up
• 11:50
  S2: by digital giants. And so with this court case potentially
• 11:55
  S2: taking years, that time off air for for both of
• 11:59
  S2: them could prove catastrophic, particularly for Sandilands, whose daily broadcasts
• 12:04
  S2: are almost the oxygen that keeps him relevant. And there's
• 12:07
  S2: also an argument that this could be detrimental to radio. Overall,
• 12:11
  S2: their contract and popularity added to radio's relevance itself, and
• 12:15
  S2: without them, hundreds of thousands of listeners who either listen
• 12:19
  S2: to the show or cycled through several shows each morning
• 12:22
  S2: on their way to work on the school drop off
• 12:25
  S2: or anything like that, could just switch to Spotify. And radio,
• 12:28
  S2: in its essence, is built on habits, and once you
• 12:31
  S2: kill those habits, which are much easier to kill than
• 12:34
  S2: they are to build up, it could be hard to return.
• 12:37
  S11: So you just said there that.
• 12:38
  S1: Part of the reason it matters is because they were
• 12:41
  S1: uniquely Australian, and now we know they've absolutely flopped in Melbourne.
• 12:45
  S1: Obviously they were a huge hit for a hugely long
• 12:47
  S1: time in Sydney. So do you think that they were
• 12:50
  S1: sort of an iconic Australian brand across the nation on
• 12:54
  S1: some level. Like, do you think they had that sort
• 12:56
  S1: of importance in terms of the radio landscape?
• 12:59
  S2: I mean, my view is that the duo are sort
• 13:02
  S2: of emblematic of this sort of sense that Sydney is brash,
• 13:06
  S2: it's in your face, and it's a place where you
• 13:08
  S2: flaunt your wealth compared to Melbourne, where if you're rich,
• 13:12
  S2: you try and sort of play it down. And we
• 13:14
  S2: sort of saw this with this contract. I mean, in
• 13:18
  S2: Henderson's book, which was released a few years ago after
• 13:20
  S2: this deal was signed, she talks about them both wanting
• 13:25
  S2: to secure this pie in the sky figure, which was
• 13:28
  S2: $10 million each per year. I mean, it's pretty rare
• 13:32
  S2: that you get people talking about what their they view
• 13:37
  S2: their personal value is in dollar terms, so openly as
• 13:41
  S2: as these two could. And I think it's probably put
• 13:44
  S2: a bit of a target on their back because previously
• 13:46
  S2: in Melbourne, people didn't actually pay that much attention to
• 13:48
  S2: them like Sandilands is obviously the the host of Australian Idol,
• 13:52
  S2: which is a show that obviously a lot of people watch,
• 13:55
  S2: but the majority of Australians don't. And by the time
• 13:58
  S2: their ten year deal was announced alongside the launch into Melbourne,
• 14:02
  S2: the view was sort of, look, here's this crass duo
• 14:04
  S2: who are going to come to Melbourne. They're openly bragging,
• 14:07
  S2: or at least Sandilands is about doing zero work to
• 14:10
  S2: try and win over the Melbourne audience. They barely made
• 14:13
  S2: a trip down to Melbourne, and they want you to
• 14:15
  S2: be aware of the fact that they're getting paid 10
• 14:18
  S2: million bucks each a year to do so.
• 14:21
  S1: And I wonder if all this crassness and of course,
• 14:23
  S1: you know, sort of telegraphing how much money they wanted
• 14:26
  S1: to make and how much they're worth. Uh, do you
• 14:28
  S1: think this has put an uncomfortable mirror up to Sydney society?
• 14:32
  S1: You know, I mean, obviously they did really well here,
• 14:34
  S1: but are they becoming more on the nose in Sydney
• 14:37
  S1: as well just for that crassness or is that who
• 14:39
  S1: we are? Callum and Sydney.
• 14:42
  S2: Look, I don't want to cast aspersions from from down
• 14:45
  S2: south because they might come across as biased. But look,
• 14:48
  S2: it's undeniable that since the show launched in Melbourne, they
• 14:52
  S2: have lost almost 250,000 listeners by survey. So that's a
• 14:58
  S2: number that sort of captures anyone that listened to the
• 15:00
  S2: show during that period. So whether or not Sydneysiders have
• 15:04
  S2: changed their attitude towards them, fewer people were listening by
• 15:09
  S2: the end of the show in Sydney. And I think,
• 15:13
  S2: you know, it's it's interesting in a sense where you, um,
• 15:16
  S2: it's sort of like a, the analogy of a frog
• 15:19
  S2: in boiling water where they've been part of the furniture
• 15:22
  S2: in Sydney for so long that their listeners are just
• 15:25
  S2: used to it. And people that don't listen just go, oh, well,
• 15:28
  S2: that's Kyle and Jackie O. You'll get to know them or,
• 15:30
  S2: you know, whatever you think of them. But this potentially
• 15:34
  S2: shined a spotlight on just some of the content. And
• 15:37
  S2: I think, you know, once you have a national media story,
• 15:40
  S2: you start getting national media attention. And obviously, the most,
• 15:44
  S2: probably the most famous example is the competition where they
• 15:47
  S2: tried to tell who was urinating by the sound of
• 15:50
  S2: their urine on air. And there's countless examples, but it
• 15:54
  S2: just sort of reminds people that this is what's on air.
• 15:57
  S2: And look, I think if the show launched in 2026
• 16:01
  S2: or another show launched with the exact same content that
• 16:05
  S2: people weren't just used to it being written off as
• 16:08
  S2: Kyle and Jackie O, I don't think it would have
• 16:10
  S2: lasted longer than a few weeks.
• 16:12
  S1: And I think it is easy to sort of make
• 16:14
  S1: light of the sort of behavior that Kyle Sandilands exhibited
• 16:17
  S1: on the show, but it's got to be said that
• 16:19
  S1: he did arguably, uh, pronounce some very intolerant views towards
• 16:25
  S1: a number of communities. So it isn't all laughing matter.
• 16:29
  S1: But I've got to ask, like, if someone like Kyle
• 16:30
  S1: Sandilands isn't in radio, won't he just start a podcast
• 16:34
  S1: or a YouTube channel? Like, is that is that what
• 16:36
  S1: we're likely to see?
• 16:38
  S2: Well, I mean, Kyle very much could take his talents
• 16:41
  S2: to YouTube. Now. Henderson it sort of seems like maybe
• 16:44
  S2: she is wanting to actually just take a step back
• 16:46
  S2: from the public spotlight more generally. But, you know, a
• 16:51
  S2: sort of comparable example might be we've seen one of
• 16:54
  S2: Nine's most popular talents, Karl Stefanovic, launch a podcast this
• 16:59
  S2: year as he seemingly tries to set himself up for
• 17:02
  S2: life after television. Now, a lot of the stuff that
• 17:05
  S2: goes on his channel is largely just interviews with right
• 17:09
  S2: wing politicians and influencers, and this kind of stuff would
• 17:13
  S2: need a lot more ring fencing on a licensed broadcaster, which,
• 17:17
  S2: you know, there are rules that apply to both radio
• 17:21
  S2: and to television, and the industry regulator has has really
• 17:24
  S2: sharpened its focus on Arn recently, but with fewer regulations.
• 17:29
  S2: This means that whether or not you believe Stefanovic's beliefs,
• 17:33
  S2: he is clearly identified that there's money to be made
• 17:36
  S2: by pandering to a highly engaged, highly online audience that
• 17:39
  S2: really appears to line up with this sort of rise
• 17:43
  S2: of one nation that we've seen at the moment. Now,
• 17:46
  S2: I doubt Kyle does the same in terms of going
• 17:49
  S2: down a political avenue, because I just don't think people
• 17:52
  S2: would really take him that seriously in that sort of domain.
• 17:55
  S2: But what we very well could see is his content
• 17:59
  S2: move online and sort of veer further towards this sort
• 18:03
  S2: of vulgar, or at least pushing the limits a bit
• 18:07
  S2: further in the future.
• 18:09
  S11: And so, Callum, what.
• 18:10
  S1: Happens now with the court case?
• 18:12
  S2: So we've really not heard much from Henderson. She's been
• 18:17
  S2: very quiet. She released one statement a few days after
• 18:21
  S2: her contract was terminated, saying that she didn't quit. She
• 18:26
  S2: seemingly seems to be of the opinion that her contract.
• 18:29
  S2: She wanted to keep her contract, but do something else now.
• 18:31
  S2: Arne seemed pretty confident of their decision to terminate Henderson's
• 18:35
  S2: contract as well. What we understand was that there was
• 18:38
  S2: a pretty extensive letter from her lawyers detailing the reasons
• 18:42
  S2: just why she didn't want to work with Sandilands any longer,
• 18:46
  S2: and because she was contracted to deliver the show with them,
• 18:48
  S2: they just tore that contract up. Sandilands, I guess, as
• 18:52
  S2: things have always been, has sucked up a lot of
• 18:54
  S2: the attention naturally, because he's continued to be a lot
• 18:58
  S2: more vocal while she has stayed quiet. Now, there's no
• 19:02
  S2: knowing exactly how this court case will play out or
• 19:05
  S2: even how quickly it will happen, but I'm sure Sandilands
• 19:08
  S2: will want a resolution as quickly as possible so that
• 19:10
  S2: he can get back on air or in front of
• 19:13
  S2: his listeners somewhere, wherever that will be. But whether a
• 19:16
  S2: judge views this as being as important a priority as
• 19:19
  S2: he does over another backlog of cases, we'll have to
• 19:22
  S2: wait and see.
• 19:23
  S1: Well, thank you so much for your time.
• 19:26
  S2: Thank you.
• 19:37
  S1: In other news, today, Singapore Airlines will launch daily flights
• 19:41
  S1: to Sydney's new $6 billion international airport on November 23rd.
• 19:46
  S1: Taking advantage of its curfew free status. Tesla is facing
• 19:51
  S1: multiple legal actions in Australia over a claim it charged
• 19:55
  S1: an Australian customer more than $10,000 for its cutting edge,
• 19:59
  S1: fully self-driving software, despite their car being technologically restricted from
• 20:05
  S1: activating the autonomous feature here. And the ABC has scrapped
• 20:10
  S1: its flagship current affairs program, 730 on Wednesday night, as
• 20:14
  S1: more than 2000 staff are expected to strike for the
• 20:18
  S1: first time in 20 years. Today's episode was produced by
• 20:24
  S1: Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our
• 20:28
  S1: podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If
• 20:32
  S1: you like our show, follow The Morning Edition and leave
• 20:35
  S1: a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.