Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 789: Embodied Healing with Jenn Turner

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Episode 789: Embodied Healing with Jenn Turner · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My
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mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in who
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we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity,
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genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. That's
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the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right. So
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five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back to
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the podcast. Very excited to have back Jen Turner. Jen welcome, thank
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you, thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Welcome back.
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You're very welcome. So Jen has had the honor of work with survivors of
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trauma for all of her career. Along with working in private practice as a
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trauma informed therapist, she is a co director the Center for Trauma and Embodiment,
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where she works oversea training and supports the development of body first interventions for
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healing from trauma. She also leads trainings in Trauma Center Trauma Sensitive Yoga throughout
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the US, provides consultation to organizations on how to become more trauma informed at
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all levels. Right, and you were first you joined me back on episode
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five twelve, so we'll have that linked up show notes page. Welcome back,
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Thank you, thank you, thank you. So remind before we get
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go in here. Reminderr listeners, where you're from originally and where you are
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currently. Yes, so I am originally very proudly from a small island up
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the coast of Maine, and which created quite the unique beginning to my existence.
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And now I'm living outside of the Boston area and that's kind of the
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hub of where the Center for Tramen Embodiment is based as well. I have
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a small private practice in addition to that work. Well, I have to
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ask why or how was living there uniquely? You know, it's yeah,
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in so many ways. One of the ways that I think about a lot
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these days is when you live, or at least for me, in living
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on a small island, there is a certain irreverence that you end up sort
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of internalizing because you kind of make your own way. I grew up in
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a place where there wasn't really law. The nearest police station was forty five
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minutes away, people really relied on kind of negotiating things as a community,
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but also allowing a lot of spaciousness to live and let live. That's kind
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of a main Ish way of being, I would say. And so for
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me, there's a lot of like free thinking I think that has come from
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that and stepping outside of the systems that we might operate in and work in
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and practice therapy in, which is something I think so much about these days,
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and contemplating wondering if it's serving us, how do we actually want to
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do it? What is the best way as opposed to the way we've been
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taught. All of these kinds of things were really embedded in my youth in
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the ways that the community functioned. What was the island called it's called Derle.
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It is connected by a bridge, so it's not like a ferry kind
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of island, but my ancestors, my grandparents, great grandparents grew up on
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an island that was six miles off the coast of that island. So there's
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just this energy in my sort of line around making your own way. Wow,
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really interesting, I'm glad. I ask, yeah, so what what
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have you been doing since we last talked? And before you answer, that
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give our listeners and maybe didn't touch base with that episode five twelve, give
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us a synopsis of what you do. Great. Yes, So at the
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Center for Drama Embodiment, we work to develop like body first, really body
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based care models for trauma recovery and really focusing on complex trauma recovery. And
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so we're looking at, you know, the impacts of trauma when it's happened,
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over the span of time, when it's happened sometimes starting childhood, all
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of these sorts of things, and then really creating care models that are designed
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specifically for that community. So we have a yoga program which we've been doing
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for twenty years twenty one years now, research, direct care training around that.
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The same thing is true of our newer program weightlifting, which is about
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five years old now, So we have a trauma informed weightlifting program and following
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that same trajectory of pulling in for research, writing about it, direct care
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back, and then training so that we're kind of developing these models alongside other
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people, putting them into practice and getting that reciprocal feedback. And then our
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newest program is called Rescripted, which is a theater based program which is very
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heavily focused on embodiment and play for adolescents and young adults. So when you
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say developing care models, is that what you mean by the yoga, by
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the weightlifting and that So those are really we're looking at them through the lens
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of clinical care models that are adjunctive treatment. So typically things like yoga or
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weightlifting or theater even have been when we look at therapy or therapeutic care are
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sort of like recreational therapy as opposed to clinical interventions. For us, it's
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been really curious to think about and to do the work of can we use
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them, but can we move about it? Can we lift weights about it
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to have meeting? Do we always have to talk about it in order for
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it to have meaning? Or can we do something with our bodies and like
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full stop? That's that is the processing and so that's kind of been one
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of the questions that we've been spoiling with over the years. And yeah,
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talk a little more about if you would. The weightlifting program. How did
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that come about? So the weightlifting program came out of a relationship with a
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colleague who was doing weightlifting in her own work, but as well as therapeutic
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work as a yoga practitioner and started to see the benefits in again, as
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it often is right reflected in her own body and her own work. Started
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to hear stories of other colleagues or people even clients that were going to the
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gym and finding these therapeutic benefits and wanting to quantify and understand that. So
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Mariah Rooney and Candice Lager or the co director of that program, the two
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of them collectively come from a clinical background mariahas and Candice comes from weightlifting trainer
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background, and the two of them have really been collaborating around one how to
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make just a general gym space. So let's say you go into Planet Fitness,
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how does that become more trauma informed? But then what does it look
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like to also do it as a clinical intervention in a residential school or a
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therapeutic school or program where folks are seeking to recover and heal. And how
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do you use that relationship with your trainer to begin to explore expanding your window
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of tolerance or what is it like to choose to add a little bit of
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stress to your body through heavy weights? And then how do you negotiate that
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relationally with yourself and with another person, which is your provider. So,
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okay, how if you go into a Planet Fitness, how do you make
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that more trauma informed? What does that look like? I mean I would
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say if they were here, they could do a better job of really going
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for this. But because I don't tend to spend a lot of time in
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Planet Fitness, but I do know that there's everything from the way that the
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layout, how things are certain you know, certain done in terms of the
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weightlifting space, who feels welcome where? But that would be probably a conversation
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more for them, as I haven't really I think I've been in a plant
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bitness a few times. Okay, Well, in terms of as a clinical
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intervention, what does that look like? I mean I could think of how
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and I'm sure our listeners could think of how that could possibly benefit you.
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I mean just getting a stress out, you know, right? Yeah?
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And sometimes I think it's about building trust. It's about doing things within your
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body that you weren't sure that you could do. It's about if you have
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the feeling. I don't know if you've ever done like heavy weightlifting or whatnot,
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but that feeling that happens is often a lot of introceptive stimuli, right
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your heart is racing, your breath is increasing while you're bearing the weight of
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something that is in a lot of ways is in fact reminiscent of a traumatic
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experience, and it's we're not looking to do exposure, but we are looking
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to help people expand that capacity to tolerate kind of a stress response in their
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body, which is to some degree what happens when we pile on weights on
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our body. In terms of clinical you know, that's something that's continuing to
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unfold as we do this work of what it looks like. But oftentimes,
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right there's a processing component that happens, whether it's live time, if the
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trader happens to be your therapist, but typically it is working in conjunctunction with
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and doing it in a really power sharing way. So one of the things
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we've been focusing on, if we zoom out of specific programs, is so
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much around the relationship between provider and client or participant or whatever we want to
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call folks who are seeking service and thinking about collaboration. You know, a
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lot of times we're taught as trainers, a therapists, as physical therapists,
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yoga teachers that we should come in and our clients should come in and have
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really concrete goals that we're working toward. Typically that happens one outside of the
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realm of treatment. So someone comes into treatment is like, here's what I
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want to work on, But you haven't even established a relationship together, or
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you haven't taken the four weeks to three months to drop into that relational and
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sort of embodied experience to then create those goals together. Right, so it
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becomes a thing of an idea rather than something that actually comes out of the
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soil that you're sort of growing this work in. And so we're thinking a
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lot about what does collaboration look like. How do we break down some of
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the barriers that we're taught our boundaries that actually end up with us as providers
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gas lighting our clients or undermining the therapeutic relationship so that we can really have
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an equitable power sharing dynamic. Or we're guiding, sometimes we're listening, sometimes
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a client is guiding, and it's really reciprocal to me. Without that sort
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of foundational relationship, the work is secondary to that. The work is less
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meaningful. We don't have it within the context of that relationship. All right,
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let's just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors. All right,
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we are back. So are you saying or suggesting that kind of inherent
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within the client, clinician, therapist or dynamic there is inherently and imbalance their
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gas lighting say more about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been
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thinking a lot about this this year, because yes, I think there's an
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inherent power imbalance that happens. And I think that part of at least my
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training, which I felt like was incredibly trauma informed in a lot of ways
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as a therapist, and still was the expectation that I was supposed to come
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into the relationship knowing things the client didn't know things, and then I impart
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that wisdom or that knowledge. What I feel like happens in that is a
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real miss relationally, is a real miss between one not having the chance to
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really get curious about the knowing that our clients come in with. Also,
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sometimes that I think encourages or sets up bypass where our clients rely on us
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rather than a self reliance that can really happen when we get curious with our
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clients. A lot of times clients will come to me or when I'm working
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with my interns that I get the opportunity to supervise is they'll sort of feel
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like, well, if I don't have answers or I don't know how to
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heal or the path to that, then like what the hell am I doing
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here? Like? Right, I know, and you know, we get
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to actually hold it. Of course, we have expertise in knowing, but
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the knowing that clients have about their own embodied experience, their own lived experience,
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they may not have been given the opportunity to value that, but it's
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there. And so how do we get to shift into that sort of relationship
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where you know, a lot of times I'll have this exchange with clients where
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it's like, hey, Jen, we you know, what do you think
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I should do about this? And it's like, I actually have no idea.
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There's a number of things I'm actually curious about what you're going to do
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or what your instincts are. And so when I'm talking about the gas lighting
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piece sort of adjacent to this conversation, it's a little bit in my mind
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around the fourth wall of therapy. Right, So, and I think can
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happen in any sort of professional relationship, helping relationship. We learn that we
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want to have boundaries absolutely right, They help us to establish safety and all
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of the things that we need in order to create a healthy relationship, a
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working relationship, And what are ways I wonder about that when we in the
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name of boundaries, we gaslight our clients. For example, one thing I've
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observed a lot is that survivors of complex trauma typically not always universally, but
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have a capacity to really read like and tune into my mood. So if
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I'm off, if I'm frustrated, if I'm exhausted, it's like, what's
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wrong with you? Jen, if there's a courage enough even to name it
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right or the safety to name it, are you okay? Are you mad
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at me? And what I think we find is that because we want to
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be good clinicians and good caregivers, because maybe we feel guilty if we're frustrated
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or annoyed to our clients, we're like, oh no, no, no,
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no, it's not you. It's no, it's not you know.
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Or sometimes we've even been taught to say like, well, what's coming up
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for you, as opposed to actually honoring what someone is picking up on in
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the room, which oftentimes is real. And that to me is such a
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gem of when we think about working in that therapeutic relationship. If we're helping
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people to kind of have a little Petri dish to then go into the world
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and have relationship chips, if we're gaslighting our clients and saying, oh no,
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no, what you're picking up on isn't real, as opposed to actually,
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yeah, I am really frustrated in it. And I'm gonna name I'm
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gonna break down that fourth wall and we're going to talk about it, and
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I'm going to be vulnerable because I'm imperfect, and then we can have and
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then what is it like to be in that space together? To me,
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that is that's that's where the work is in those moments. Yeah right,
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I so agree with you. And this topic is so exciting to me,
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and there's so many things my little brain is just lighting up here. The
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first thing that I want to touch upon is the inherent power dynamic. It's
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it's built into right, the relationship. Right, the client is going to
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the therapist who apparently has all this knowledge and these degrees and this office and
17:06
everything. And furthermore, that is as everyone knows. I mean, that's
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people go to school to learn how to you know, impart yes, to
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help, but to impart this, No, I mean the whole idea of
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helping of you know, why is someone becoming a therapist in the first place.
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You know, oftentimes that goes slips under the radar. You know,
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well I want to help people. Well, you keep digging and digging and
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digging, and oftentimes there's trauma in there. And like for myself, you
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know, I wanted to help people, like so many people, I didn't
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realize the degree to which my own trauma experience drove that need, want,
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desire to help. And of course it's all coming from a very genuine place,
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but that really dictates how you show up in the room, you know,
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And it took me a while to realize that. I remember the first
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supervisor I had. I was like, I walked in there, I was
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like so frustrated, and she was like, guy, what's going on.
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I was like, they're not listening to me, the client. They're not
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listening. And she said something I'll never forget it. She looked at me
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and said, why the hell do you think they need to listen to you?
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Yes, that's right, He's like, what, But it's like this.
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I had a great experience this year with one of the interns. I
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was like, I really have a hard time with people who lie to me.
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I was like, I don't think. I think you should really pause
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and think about how that might be a challenge in this role for you,
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because clients will lie to you all the time. And why do you feel
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entitled to hear the truth from them? Why do you feel entitled for their
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trust? You haven't earned it, you know. And that's another thing,
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right, It's like, we have the office, we have the degree.
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It's like, okay, trust me, I'm I mean, we all know,
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at the hands of lots of different people who are supposed to trust,
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shitty things happen. And so why do we feel like folks are you know,
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should trust us or should tell us the truth and or listen to us?
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But then it's for me, if I flip it on its head,
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it's like, okay, well then what am I doing? What is my
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role here? Why am I even here? And another one of my one
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of the things I really love doing is working with therapists who are going through
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their own mental health challenges, emotional challenges, life challenges, right as we
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do. And then how did that comes the question for me around why did
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you why Are you a therapist. Are you a therapist because you have the
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answers? Are you a therapist because you've healed everything in your life? Or
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are you a therapist because you're a witness, because you're a good listener,
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because you are curious and able to hear what is being said to you,
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and then what's beneath that That, to me, has nothing to do necessarily,
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I mean, has something to do. But with your own answer finding
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healing process. It's your capacity to hold space for another human and step out
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of the way, right, which is easier said than done, right,
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I mean, certainly. And a lot of what really got me with this
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whole topic is, you know, when I went to graduate school, I
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wanted to consume everything I could about trauma, and when it came to,
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you know, being present and being vulnerable, I kind of thought I had
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that dialed in. I was kind of you know, older and you know,
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I've been there, done that, and I didn't get it. I
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was so naive and it almost seemed to me like that was the easy part.
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The hard part, the challenging part was gaining all this knowledge, and
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I thought that was going to be the key, and of course it wasn't.
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But what you're saying is I think is so spot on. But talk
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about why you feel that's a challenge for a lot of people, I mean
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to and of course you're not saying to disregard the knowledge and the expertise,
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but to be able to understand that there's so much more there with being able
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to be okay with not having the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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For me, it's I feel like it's a process of It's a philosophical approach
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for sure of like where do answers lie? And it is what helps me
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the freedom in that is continuing to learn. So if I think if I
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weren't in a position also often wanting to consume more information about trauma, the
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research that's happening science around it, I think continuing to learn allows me to
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free up in the moment with someone like Okay, I know a bunch of
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shit, all right, I do swear a lot is I don't know if
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it's from being from New England or what we just do that, but I
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don't know if it is. The is sort of like, okay, how
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this information and I don't know what's true for you? And you get to
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be the exit. It never felt right to me as a therapist, even
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as a yoga teacher. When I was first a yoga teacher. To come
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into a place of like, you need to adjust your body this way,
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I would be curious, like, okay, so you could move your shoulders
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like this, but what does that feel like to you? The same thing
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could be true for anything. It's like, okay, we could go toward
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this trigger, but you know your body better than I do, or or
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what is your body telling you? Right now? As I'm bringing up the
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possibility of us leaning into this moment, you're getting a lot of like flashing
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lights in there. You're getting a lot of like signals. And we get
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to decide that together because I know at some point we're gonna want to face
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that. But that doesn't have to be now. The timing could be with
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another therapist another year, but that you get to be the one that is
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in charge of when or how. It's like an informed consent along the way,
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like every step. And so I think that, but it so the
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idea that the thing that I mean not to get too deep in the weeds,
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but part of what I sort of feel like I've been studying with this
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medicine woman, an indigenous medicine woman, just to learn about like who often
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I think in an indigenous setting can serve as a therapeutic kind of role,
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and that work, from what I've under said so far, is centered in
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a relational piece, not so much a science piece. I think psychology has
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always had the thing around like are we a science? Can we be a
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science? Are we an art? What is this right? When we come
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at it from my perspective as an art form, an intuitive practice rooted in
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knowledge and information, but like so much that we're picking up with one another,
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then that shifts from I have the answers, let me teach you to
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I'm sensing this, what's happening in you? Am I missing some? You
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know? Then it becomes this reciprocal dance, which is the roots of therapy
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are come from a different place. I think they come from a top down,
24:45
academic research kind of place. In practice they may not, but in
24:49
our training it's in the water, you know. Yeah. It reminds me
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of one of my favorite favorite quotes by Eugene Gentlen in the Primacy of Presidence,
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and he talks about, you know, he's the importance of being present
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and being real with someone and how profoundly healing just that in and of itself
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it can be. But for me, it's like I feel it requires a
25:25
certain honesty from the therapist to have done their work so that they're able to
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be there, to be so present in that moment at that time, especially
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when you're talking about people who've been impacted by trauma, when it's very difficult
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for them to trust or to even feel empowered, right or for even as
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you're saying, you know you're you're trusting them to honor their own feelings,
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to even honor their own feelings. Yes, yeah, difficult, and sometimes
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that's the work for years. Right, It's like to build that space of
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like of establishing some kind of trust, establishing a relationship with self. It's
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like, if I don't think that I'm worthy of care, which we know
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is one of the outcomes of you know, early childhood trauma. If I
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don't believe I'm worthy of care or love or safety, then for sure,
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if my therapist comes in like you've got the answers in there, I'm not
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going to stick around for that right right, And so yes, there are
26:29
some things that I can share with you about, like knowledge that exists out
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there. Let's get access to that. But in terms of me telling you
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or being able to peer into your psyche or your spirit and tell you a
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thing like that is that's very delicate work that you get to do only with
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and I. You invite me into that each time, and you can always
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kick me out of that too. So are you doing kind of research around
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this topic or what's your interest in this topic? Yeah? So the work
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that the entry point has been through the yoga model, which is a trauma
27:08
sensitive yoga model. That's the one that we've done the most research on,
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working with you institutions like the VA and H to do these kinds of research
27:18
projects. What has been out of that has come a desire for clinicians to
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say, Okay, this is great to have group classes, but how do
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I do this in a one on one session? And so starting to experiment
27:32
with that clinically and offer sessions where we're doing embodied work and then we're processing
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it, but we're staying close to the body and not necessarily going into the
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story for that like top down, I know a thing. We're having this
27:45
shared authentic experience together and so that to me is the next line of research
27:52
and project that I would really like to do to research specifically the yoga model
27:56
in the embedded in the context of traditional kind of one on one therapy.
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The work in general of examining the relationship is something we've done in all of
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our models, the weightlifting, the theater program, and the yoga program in
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terms of what does it look like to have boundaries and be transparent? You
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know, what does it look like to show up authentically and with presence and
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hold a container where you're not centering yourself, but also to show up as
28:29
a human and as another body in the room. And that's invited us to
28:37
look at some of these systems and structures of therapeutic care and wonder about what
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would we do differently if we were really wanting to make it trauma in formed
28:45
and relational. So that's where a lot of this inquiry has come from.
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From your perspective. Do you see trends in terms of the therapeutic treatment of
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medell for trauma? Do you see them moving more towards that? I mean,
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because as you said, you know, this is somewhat a philosophical approach,
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but certainly a lot of people, a lot of people I've spoken with
29:15
on this podcast put a lot of value in that. Yes, yes,
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I mean one of the things that I have noticed is that as much as
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there's so much because I live in the world of like the sensory world,
29:37
in the embodied world around trauma, there's a lot of energy around like focus
29:41
and research and interest in how do we bring the body into care, and
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there's still this like missing link about the doing of that one thing. So
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I noticed that as sort of a trend, and I don't know if it's
30:00
just that it's still that's a field that's continuing to grow, and so folks
30:03
are still continuing to feel comfortable putting that into practice. But the relational piece
30:11
and the power dynamics to me, I has to teach a graduate course a
30:17
university in Cambridge, and I feel like the power dynamics thing kind of blows
30:22
people out of the water still, even the students, they're like, wait,
30:25
what I have power over in this and that? And I'm like,
30:29
I don't know if people are talking about that as much as I am talking
30:33
about it, I guess I don't know. I feel like I talk about
30:34
it every day, but that because the students don't aren't aware of it,
30:40
Like, what do you mean, I'm not aware of it? Or it's
30:42
like I think sometimes actually, particularly for fledgling and young therapists, the dangerous
30:48
is that they don't think of themselves as experts, but to their clients who
30:52
are walking in there, they're holding the keys. And so sometimes I think
30:56
the most harm we can do is when we don't actually flame the power we've
31:00
been given. It's like our privilege, right, yeah, It's like,
31:03
oh, I don't I share my privilege. It's like, okay, let's
31:08
really check that out, you know, right, right, And so I
31:12
think that and I do really appreciate in being an educator and seeing and training
31:22
folks and seeing the fluency in trauma has changed so much in the last ten
31:30
years. I feel like that has been incredible to witness, and so that
31:33
permeates into care always, right, Like, if we're getting to learn,
31:40
you know, ways to meet trauma that are different than they were ten years
31:42
ago, our clients are benefiting from that. That's happening in all kinds of
31:45
spaces, and that to me is really exciting, very cool. Our gen
31:52
So what's going on at the Center for Trauma and Embodiment what are you offering
32:00
there? What are you doing there? Yeah, so we're growing, we're
32:05
expanding, we're offering we're launching new training institutes where we're really looking to have
32:13
a synchronous and asynchronous training that's offered for a host of providers, not just
32:19
therapists, but including therapists and the weightlifting program, the yoga program, but
32:23
also looking at other things that are adjacent to that, you know. And
32:29
we have a large research project working in perinatal support of embodied care and so
32:36
that will be launching the next six months at the Centerpratrama and Embodiment dot org
32:38
c FT dot org. We're looking to launch a podcast as well that I
32:44
am supposed to be hosting. So that's a whole thing that later data love
32:50
to pick your brain about. And you know, just trying to continue the
32:54
conversation around embodied care and trauma through training, through research, and through writing
33:02
too. And a couple of new books that are going to be coming out
33:05
as well. What by whom so one that's coming out. We have a
33:10
Spanish speaking community that's been largely based in Central America, so they're going to
33:17
write their writing. In the process of writing a book, Crystal Perez and
33:22
Luisa Prez that are looking to launch a book around embodied care through yoga in
33:31
Central America and the sort of cultural adaptations. We have a really interesting project
33:37
happening in the Middle East right now in the refugee centers there in Syria and
33:44
Lebanon, training for women that are working in living in those camps, in
33:49
offering embodied care and yoga to fellow refugees and children, particularly in a culture
33:55
and context that is where claiming your agency and body as a female identifying person
34:04
is quite challenging at times. So lots of interesting projects and learning that's happening.
34:12
And you know, people, I'll leave the website in the bio on
34:15
things, but people could check it out there. Yeah wow, exciting.
34:20
So, uh website is would you say, c f T c f T
34:25
E dot org, CFT dot org. Okay, Trauma Sensitive Yoga dot org
34:30
is another good one. Okay. We'll have those linked up at the show
34:34
notes page here at the Trauma Theapis podcast dot com. Jen so inspiring talking
34:38
to you. Uh really, you are like a breath of fresh air to
34:43
speak with. I love it. That's great. I love these conversations.
34:45
Their thought growth, take care. Thanks so much. The Days Attact,
35:02
the cat, the roloding