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Jane Goodall: All Good · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
0:11
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
0:13
Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you
0:16
Speaker 2: should know podcasts. How you doing, I'm good, I'm good.
0:22
Speaker 1: You I'm sweepy?
0:24
Speaker 2: Oh are you?
0:26
Speaker 1: Yeah?
0:27
Speaker 2: I'm a little beat myself. Is it just life or
0:30
Speaker 2: did you stay up till five am drinking?
0:33
Speaker 1: No, it's just hitting right around the old nap time,
0:36
Speaker 1: So you know.
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Speaker 2: I'm with you. Do you ever doze off all your studying?
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Speaker 1: Uh? No, but I you know, I still try and
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Speaker 1: catch a short nap every day, and on the recording
0:48
Speaker 1: days that sometimes happens. But today was I was not
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Speaker 1: able to gotcha?
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Speaker 2: Well, we'll retire eventually. Hang in there.
0:57
Speaker 1: I'll sleep when I retire.
0:59
Speaker 2: Hey, So what do you want to talk about today?
1:03
Speaker 1: I mean, I prepped for a show on Jane Goodall,
1:07
Speaker 1: so did I. And she's the best.
1:11
Speaker 2: She is she is she is widely roundly, basically globally
1:17
Speaker 2: universally probably seen as essentially a great person.
1:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she's cherished and for good reason. After
1:27
Speaker 1: did you watch the documentary for this at all?
1:29
Speaker 2: By the way, I didn't the Future one from twenty seventeen.
1:34
Speaker 1: Jane, Yeah, yeah, no I didn't. It's great.
1:38
Speaker 2: It sounds great. I read a lot about it, as
1:40
Speaker 2: I do, but I haven't seen it. Yeah, I'll have
1:42
Speaker 2: to watch it still.
1:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really good. Highly recommended if you're listening and
1:47
Speaker 1: if this hearing about her, you know, inspires you to
1:51
Speaker 1: learn more at all, because it's a great documentary of footage, beautiful,
1:57
Speaker 1: beautiful color film stock from back then when she was
2:02
Speaker 1: doing her studies. And it's not it's not like a narrate.
2:07
Speaker 1: It's it's narrated just by her thoughts and this beautiful
2:11
Speaker 1: score and it just shows it. It's just really really
2:14
Speaker 1: lovely the way it plays out.
2:16
Speaker 2: That's awesome. I heard the car chase in the middle
2:18
Speaker 2: is really great.
2:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't expect it, but very good.
2:23
Speaker 2: So drive drive, drive. Yeah, so we're talking Jane Goodall.
2:28
Speaker 2: For those of you who don't know who Jane Goodall is,
2:31
Speaker 2: she is one of the world's foremost renowned primatologists. And
2:39
Speaker 2: she did it the old fashioned way by going out
2:41
Speaker 2: into the jungle and learning as she did. It's called
2:44
Speaker 2: the school of hard knocks, I think. Yeah, that's the
2:47
Speaker 2: thing about Jane Goodall. She had a high school education
2:50
Speaker 2: when she started. She did not go to college, not
2:54
Speaker 2: for a while, and a guy named Lewis Leakey, a
2:57
Speaker 2: famous anthropologist, took a gamble on her on purpose because
3:01
Speaker 2: he was looking for somebody who could who was not trained, purposely,
3:05
Speaker 2: not trained so that they weren't bringing a bunch of
3:08
Speaker 2: preconceptions to them to study chimpanzees. And Jing Goodall fit
3:12
Speaker 2: the bill. As we'll see, she's loved animals since she
3:14
Speaker 2: was a kid, and after just a few months started
3:18
Speaker 2: excelling at it and eventually changed how the world sees chimpanzees.
3:24
Speaker 2: We didn't know much about him before, We had a
3:26
Speaker 2: lot of assumptions about him, and Jing Goodall showed that
3:28
Speaker 2: they were just let's just turn those on their heads.
3:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, how's that.
3:34
Speaker 2: For an intro baby?
3:36
Speaker 1: It's pretty good?
3:37
Speaker 2: Thank you?
3:39
Speaker 1: Do we I mean, do we get more specific? Even?
3:42
Speaker 2: Oh? I thought we'd get specific as we went along,
3:44
Speaker 2: but sure, go ahead.
3:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. So she was born in nineteen thirty four in
3:47
Speaker 1: England to her mother Margaret and her father Mortimer. Go
3:53
Speaker 1: ahead and forget I even said father Mortimer, because he
3:56
Speaker 1: was not around much and he does not feel much
4:00
Speaker 1: in her story. He divorced when Jane was but sixteen.
4:04
Speaker 1: But especially after watching this documentary, if we're going to
4:08
Speaker 1: salute Jane Goodall, we are going to have to salute
4:10
Speaker 1: her mother, because her mom was the one who was like, Hey,
4:17
Speaker 1: you want to figure something out, then go figure it
4:21
Speaker 1: out and go learn it and go do Instead of
4:24
Speaker 1: talking about something, go out and do it because no
4:26
Speaker 1: one else is going to do it unless you do it.
4:29
Speaker 1: And who cares that it's the nineteen forties and fifties.
4:35
Speaker 1: Who cares that you're a young girl. Just go out
4:38
Speaker 1: and do it, Jane, by God, and she did.
4:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, She very famously encouraged her to go dance on
4:45
Speaker 2: the rain, feel the rain in her skin because no
4:47
Speaker 2: one else will do it for you.
4:50
Speaker 1: That's right, And like you said, and this is what
4:54
Speaker 1: maybe set her apart from other scientists at the time.
4:59
Speaker 1: She loved, loved and loved animals like capital l O vee,
5:06
Speaker 1: and that sort of flew in the face of the
5:08
Speaker 1: dispassionate history of how you study animals.
5:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, biologists typically approached animals totally detached, totally unemotional.
5:19
Speaker 1: They were aware opposed to.
5:22
Speaker 2: That was how they were trained to and it makes
5:24
Speaker 2: sense in a way because this is there was a
5:27
Speaker 2: widespread fear and there apparently still is among you know,
5:32
Speaker 2: hardcore biologists and other ologists that study animals, that we
5:39
Speaker 2: humans have a just a great propensity for anthropomorphizing animals.
5:44
Speaker 2: And how can you study animals if you're just essentially
5:47
Speaker 2: presuming that they're behaving like humans. You can't if they're
5:51
Speaker 2: doing something that's actually not human like and you're just
5:53
Speaker 2: misinterpreting it, you're being misled by your anthropomorphism. So there
5:57
Speaker 2: was a real there was The workaround that they figured
6:02
Speaker 2: out was to just look at them dispassionately. They're just animals.
6:05
Speaker 2: I don't care what their names are, I don't care
6:07
Speaker 2: anything about them. I'm just going to study them as
6:11
Speaker 2: dispassionately as possible in the hopes of preventing from anthropomorphizing.
6:16
Speaker 2: That was the predominant view, and again it still kind
6:18
Speaker 2: of is. It's complete hogwash, the idea that there's just
6:24
Speaker 2: no inner lives to animals, and apparently there's still some
6:27
Speaker 2: academics that cling on to that, but it does make
6:31
Speaker 2: a little bit of sense where if you're worried about
6:34
Speaker 2: projecting your own feelings and values and emotions and thoughts
6:38
Speaker 2: onto the animals you're studying, then just don't get attached
6:41
Speaker 2: to the animals. And that's what she entered into.
6:44
Speaker 1: You know, he said, what they don't care what their
6:47
Speaker 1: names are.
6:49
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure they have names like ragnor the Conquerors.
6:54
Speaker 2: Probably a pretty regular name for a cow.
6:57
Speaker 1: I would think so. But you're right, But she flew
7:00
Speaker 1: in the face of that. She loved animals as a child.
7:04
Speaker 1: She would just spend hours and hours and hours as
7:06
Speaker 1: a young girl drawing animals, talking about animals, writing about animals,
7:11
Speaker 1: and not just you know, birds are fun because they fly,
7:16
Speaker 1: like observing them like a little miniature scientist. So she
7:20
Speaker 1: had recollections about bringing worms to bed when she was
7:25
Speaker 1: a toddler, like one of her first memories. Another was
7:29
Speaker 1: when she went to watch a hen laying an egg
7:34
Speaker 1: and like document that whole process. Spent five hours in
7:37
Speaker 1: a hen house as a young girl, and her parents
7:40
Speaker 1: couldn't find her, and her mom, you know, called the cops.
7:42
Speaker 1: They thought she had wandered off.
7:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw very pivotally when she was younger.
7:47
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what age, but she was a young kid.
7:50
Speaker 2: Still she was fascinated with the pigs that she saw
7:53
Speaker 2: on the English countryside, and she wanted to hang out
7:56
Speaker 2: with them, but they would always run away. So she
7:58
Speaker 2: taught herself to be super patient and to sit and
8:01
Speaker 2: get them to come closer to her and eventually feed
8:03
Speaker 2: them and won their trust that way, and that would
8:06
Speaker 2: later serve her very well when she started to study chimpanzees.
8:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, that patient's in the documentary you
8:15
Speaker 1: know you mentioned Lewis Leaky. He was a very famous
8:19
Speaker 1: paleontologist and anthropologist who gave her her break in the
8:24
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties when she met him in Kenya. I guess
8:27
Speaker 1: we should say she got there because she graduated from
8:30
Speaker 1: high school and was like, you know what, I'm not
8:32
Speaker 1: gonna we can't afford college. I'm gonna go get a
8:34
Speaker 1: couple of jobs, hustle save money so I can go
8:37
Speaker 1: to Africa and study on my own. But she got there,
8:41
Speaker 1: and Leaky she said part of the reason she got
8:44
Speaker 1: the job was because he wanted someone with monumental patients.
8:49
Speaker 1: I ease, somebody who would sit there for what ended
8:52
Speaker 1: up being five months before she even saw chimpanzees.
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Speaker 2: Basically, man, that guy would be like a senior VP
9:00
Speaker 2: at ZIP recruiter, just based on that one pick he made. Yeah,
9:04
Speaker 2: for sure, if you were around today, did you like that?
9:08
Speaker 2: That was a little buzz marketing for one of our advertisers.
9:11
Speaker 1: They haven't been around in a while, so okay, well
9:14
Speaker 1: for maybe they'll come back.
9:17
Speaker 2: So yeah, Lewis leaky. Apparently she started out as a
9:20
Speaker 2: secretary for him, right, yeah, And then I guess he
9:24
Speaker 2: found out that she wanted to do animal studies, and
9:26
Speaker 2: he said, okay, here's your chance. I'm going to send
9:28
Speaker 2: you to Tanzania to study chimpanzees. We don't know much
9:31
Speaker 2: about chimpanzees. We want you to go find out all
9:35
Speaker 2: about them. And so, at age twenty six in nineteen sixty,
9:39
Speaker 2: she arrived in Tanzania with her mom. Because the Tanzanian
9:42
Speaker 2: government I believe it was still a colonial government at
9:45
Speaker 2: the time, if not then at least a transitional government. Still,
9:49
Speaker 2: they required a chaperone for someone in her position, so
9:54
Speaker 2: she brought her mom along, who'd been a great supporter
9:56
Speaker 2: and booster all her life, like you said, And they
9:58
Speaker 2: also very importantly had an cook who was a local
10:01
Speaker 2: named Dominic and within a very short amount of time,
10:06
Speaker 2: both her mom and she came down with malaria and
10:10
Speaker 2: they were very fortunate to have Dominic from what I saw,
10:12
Speaker 2: because he helped nurse them back to health.
10:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, he was a big He's kind of
10:18
Speaker 1: like part of the family from what I gathered.
10:19
Speaker 2: That's what I gathered too.
10:21
Speaker 1: This is at the Gombi Stream Game Reserve which is
10:25
Speaker 1: now the Gombi Stream National Park, and her mom didn't
10:29
Speaker 1: stay too long. She was there about four months. But
10:31
Speaker 1: while her mom was there, she helped set up a
10:34
Speaker 1: either set up or work with medical camp there to
10:38
Speaker 1: help provide you know, medical services to locals. So her
10:42
Speaker 1: mom was getting in there getting her hands dirty. Eventually
10:46
Speaker 1: would leave to go back to England and Jane stayed there.
10:51
Speaker 1: You know, she was not with Leaky. He didn't like
10:56
Speaker 1: stay there with her. He set her up with his
10:57
Speaker 1: job also apparently was you know, making passes at Erica's
11:03
Speaker 1: Jane Goodall and this kind of popped that throughout her
11:05
Speaker 1: career was a very pretty young scientist at a time
11:09
Speaker 1: when that was fairly unusual, I think, especially where she
11:13
Speaker 1: was located. And she was like, no, thank you, doctor Leaky.
11:16
Speaker 1: I'm not interested, but I appreciate you. You you know
11:20
Speaker 1: trust in trusting this position to me at least, but
11:24
Speaker 1: hands off.
11:24
Speaker 2: He said, that's what That's just what I wanted to hear.
11:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he wanted to hear just that.
11:29
Speaker 2: So apparently she got set up with six months of
11:32
Speaker 2: funding initially, and she started to get really worried because
11:35
Speaker 2: at least three months passed and she was spending all
11:38
Speaker 2: day every day with a couple of locals who were
11:42
Speaker 2: walking her around the jungle looking like pointing out like
11:45
Speaker 2: this would probably be a pretty good place for chimps
11:47
Speaker 2: to show up. This tree has a bunch of fruit
11:48
Speaker 2: on it. They'd sit around. The chimps wouldn't show up.
11:52
Speaker 2: They did show up, they were covered up by leaves.
11:54
Speaker 2: She couldn't see what they were doing if she got
11:57
Speaker 2: if she moved to get a little closer so she
11:59
Speaker 2: could get about, they would all run away. That was
12:02
Speaker 2: when she saw them, Like she was her research was
12:05
Speaker 2: in great jeopardy. She was, you have to have chimps
12:09
Speaker 2: to study to get more funding and continue your research.
12:13
Speaker 2: So she was starting to get worried by month three
12:15
Speaker 2: or four. And I guess finally she won the trust
12:22
Speaker 2: of at least one group enough that they wouldn't run
12:25
Speaker 2: off when she would just kind of show up and
12:28
Speaker 2: hang out and feed or watch them feed. And I
12:30
Speaker 2: saw that one of the reasons, or one of the
12:32
Speaker 2: ways that she won the trust of the chimpanzee groups
12:35
Speaker 2: that she was observing was by kind of behaving like them,
12:38
Speaker 2: Like she ran around barefoot everywhere. She would hang out
12:41
Speaker 2: in the trees for a long periods of time and
12:43
Speaker 2: just kind of tried to treat them or behave as
12:47
Speaker 2: if they were her peers rather than study subjects or
12:51
Speaker 2: test subjects.
12:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, she those one. At one point in
12:55
Speaker 1: the documentary, she's talking about the dangers of where she
12:58
Speaker 1: was and these poison snakes everywhere, and you know, all
13:02
Speaker 1: manner of ways in which you could die out there
13:04
Speaker 1: doing what she was doing, and she was and it
13:07
Speaker 1: didn't sound naive either. She just said, you know, I
13:09
Speaker 1: felt like I was supput And she's got that great
13:12
Speaker 1: British accent too, so it just everything sounds so great.
13:15
Speaker 1: But she said she felt like she was supposed to
13:16
Speaker 1: be there, and that if she just treaded carefully and
13:23
Speaker 1: respected the land and the creatures around her, then they
13:26
Speaker 1: would like allow her to stay there, like these snakes
13:29
Speaker 1: were not going to come bite her and send her away,
13:32
Speaker 1: because she's, like I was, I'm supposed to be here,
13:35
Speaker 1: And it was really kind of a lovely thing. She
13:37
Speaker 1: really seemed like she fit in such that finally, five
13:42
Speaker 1: months in, with time running out, a chimp named David
13:45
Speaker 1: Graybeard obviously she's giving them these names, and he had
13:49
Speaker 1: a kind of looked like me a little bit. He had,
13:51
Speaker 1: this little gray Beard trusted her. He was the first
13:55
Speaker 1: one of that group allowed her to get closer and
13:57
Speaker 1: closer and closer. He eventually alsome bananas, came back for
14:02
Speaker 1: more bananas, and he was the one that said to
14:05
Speaker 1: the other chimps, hey, this lady, she's not too bad.
14:09
Speaker 1: Look at her.
14:10
Speaker 2: So we then treat bananas.
14:11
Speaker 1: She's hanging out and the footage of her and we'll
14:16
Speaker 1: get to whether or not this was the correct thing
14:18
Speaker 1: or not later, but the footage of her dead, still
14:21
Speaker 1: holding bananas out in her hand and seeing these very
14:24
Speaker 1: large chimpanzees coming up and taking them from her hands,
14:27
Speaker 1: and the way she's acting is is breathtaking because nobody
14:33
Speaker 1: had done that before.
14:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say today you could see somebody
14:37
Speaker 2: doing that, And the reason why you could see someone
14:39
Speaker 2: doing this, because Jing Goodall was the first to do
14:41
Speaker 2: it exactly. She had no idea. She had no frame
14:44
Speaker 2: of reference for whether they were going to be violent
14:47
Speaker 2: toward her or whether they were going to throw their
14:49
Speaker 2: poop better or whatever. She had no idea. So that
14:52
Speaker 2: was a real risk that she was taking by interacting
14:55
Speaker 2: with them that directly. And then in addition to it
14:58
Speaker 2: being risky, it was driving any academic who was aware
15:03
Speaker 2: of her work completely baddie, because that is a big
15:07
Speaker 2: nice man. That's not at all what you do. Not
15:12
Speaker 2: only do you not like get attached to them, you
15:14
Speaker 2: certainly don't feed them, you don't interact with their infants,
15:18
Speaker 2: don't you don't give them names. That was another one,
15:21
Speaker 2: David Graybeard. Yes, I'm gonna go with you and assume
15:24
Speaker 2: that that wasn't his actual name, that she gave them
15:27
Speaker 2: that name. And that was driving like academics crazy, like
15:30
Speaker 2: she was doing everything wrong, and yet it was starting
15:33
Speaker 2: to really pay off in aces.
15:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, you're not supposed to name Jimps And
15:39
Speaker 1: she's like, have you ever bet at a gym? Jump right?
15:43
Speaker 2: It's like it's working, Yeah, it really, and it really
15:46
Speaker 2: did work, Like thanks largely thanks to David Graybeard, at
15:50
Speaker 2: least at first who who, like you said, said this
15:53
Speaker 2: lady's all right? And then her patience and then her
15:57
Speaker 2: feeding them an endless supply of bananas. All those three
16:00
Speaker 2: combined to win over the trust of large groups and
16:03
Speaker 2: families of chimpanzees.
16:06
Speaker 1: Should we take a break, I think we should. All right,
16:09
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with moron. Do you know who?
16:11
Speaker 1: Right after this?
16:38
Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So, Jane Goodall is feeding chimps bananas. At
16:43
Speaker 2: this point, she's named them, named all of them. I mean,
16:47
Speaker 2: she really kind of had to get very creative with
16:49
Speaker 2: the names because she would identify a family lineage by
16:54
Speaker 2: like a letter, so like the F family, all of
16:58
Speaker 2: the members for generations had first names that began with F,
17:02
Speaker 2: like Flow or Flossy or Fabian or Freud, and that's
17:07
Speaker 2: how she kept track of them. But again, other academics
17:10
Speaker 2: would have just given them numbers, like maybe they all
17:14
Speaker 2: started with the same number or something like that, but
17:16
Speaker 2: certainly not names. And from observing them that closely, and
17:21
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess interacting with them probably had a
17:25
Speaker 2: lot to do with it. But interacting with them allowed
17:28
Speaker 2: her to get that close, and by interacting that closely,
17:31
Speaker 2: she was able to see things that up to that
17:33
Speaker 2: point people had no idea chimpanzees were capable of. One
17:37
Speaker 2: of the first things she realized is that they have
17:39
Speaker 2: a huge, intricate, complex social system with hierarchies, like I said, families, alliances, territories,
17:48
Speaker 2: like all sorts of stuff that people just did not
17:50
Speaker 2: realize chips were capable of engaging in.
17:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, big time. Communication wise, she found out there were
17:58
Speaker 1: at least twenty different sets that they were making to communicate,
18:02
Speaker 1: and that's in addition to any kind of body language
18:05
Speaker 1: or behaviors they may exhibit towards one another. She was
18:08
Speaker 1: the first person that said, hey, these guys aren't just
18:12
Speaker 1: eating bananas and berries and things. They are omnivores. They're
18:17
Speaker 1: eating birds, they're eating insects, they're eating baby baboons. Sometimes
18:22
Speaker 1: she would figure this out later, much to her dismay,
18:25
Speaker 1: they would eat other chimps. But the big finding that
18:29
Speaker 1: she came out with that kind of shook signs to
18:32
Speaker 1: its core was that she observed chimpanzees engaging in object modification,
18:39
Speaker 1: which is basically sort of proto tool making, when they
18:43
Speaker 1: would take blades of grass and sticks and things and
18:46
Speaker 1: strip them down or bend them, or clump blades of
18:50
Speaker 1: grass together and shape them in certain ways to stick
18:53
Speaker 1: into ant hills most effectively and efficiently to draw out
18:58
Speaker 1: ants to eat them. And she was like, hey, wait
19:01
Speaker 1: a minute, Like, the big differentiator up until this point
19:05
Speaker 1: in the history of evolution between us and them is
19:10
Speaker 1: that we use tools. That's all everyone talked about was
19:13
Speaker 1: that we use tools and animals don't, and that's what
19:15
Speaker 1: makes us different. She's like, right here in front of
19:17
Speaker 1: my face, they are using object modification, which is basically
19:22
Speaker 1: a tool.
19:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you just you said it. It shook the
19:25
Speaker 2: scientific world to its foundations. Like that was just such
19:29
Speaker 2: a huge finding that Lewis Leaky declared very famously that
19:33
Speaker 2: we must redefined tool, redefine man, or accept chimpanzees as humans.
19:39
Speaker 2: Like that's how big of a deal.
19:41
Speaker 1: It was.
19:41
Speaker 2: Dramatic, it was, But I mean, up to that point,
19:44
Speaker 2: like you said, people just tools made a human. Anything
19:49
Speaker 2: that could make a tool technically qualified as human. Everything
19:52
Speaker 2: else couldn't make tools. So it was a big deal.
19:54
Speaker 2: And then on top of that, to me, even more
19:57
Speaker 2: groundbreaking is that they realized that different groups of chimps
20:03
Speaker 2: use the same tool in different ways, and that like
20:07
Speaker 2: say one group would use the short stick to get
20:10
Speaker 2: termites on it to eat them one by one. Another
20:13
Speaker 2: group would use a longer stick to let a bunch
20:15
Speaker 2: of them walk on and then eat it like a
20:17
Speaker 2: corn cob probably, and that they would pass how to
20:22
Speaker 2: do that down to different generations. And that's culture and
20:25
Speaker 2: its most basic definition that qualifies as culture. And I
20:29
Speaker 2: saw it compared to how Westerners use forks, but people
20:35
Speaker 2: in Asia use chopsticks. They're both the same tool they're
20:38
Speaker 2: used to they're implement to get food to your mouth,
20:41
Speaker 2: but they're just different and they're passed down through the
20:43
Speaker 2: culture their cultural differences. And that's the same thing with
20:46
Speaker 2: the different ways of using a termite stick, right, And
20:49
Speaker 2: that is culture. So she discovered that chimps have cultures as.
20:53
Speaker 1: Well, and some of them open their presence on Christmas Eve,
20:58
Speaker 1: some of them wait until Christmas more or all kinds
21:02
Speaker 1: of things she observed.
21:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a big surprise too. They're terrible at
21:06
Speaker 2: wrapping presents too, they're so sloppy.
21:09
Speaker 1: Another big surprise, Well, they just used the funny papers
21:12
Speaker 1: from Sunday, which can you blame them. Another big surprise
21:15
Speaker 1: was in nineteen sixty two when National Geographic then Geo
21:20
Speaker 1: Society that is, sent a filmmaker, a Dutch filmmaker name
21:24
Speaker 1: Hugo von Lowick there to film her work. She was
21:29
Speaker 1: not thrilled at this idea. She really enjoyed her solitude there.
21:33
Speaker 1: She did not want some dude mucking up the works
21:37
Speaker 1: and kind of quite honestly spoiling her scene that she
21:41
Speaker 1: had going on there. She really enjoyed climbing trees and
21:43
Speaker 1: being alone and not having to deal with some jerk
21:47
Speaker 1: with a camera. But she knew that's where the funding
21:49
Speaker 1: came from. They needed this footage if she was going
21:52
Speaker 1: to continue to get funding. She put up with the
21:55
Speaker 1: sky chainsmoking and throwing his cigarette butts around in the jungle,
22:00
Speaker 1: which upset her very much, But she was like, this
22:03
Speaker 1: guy really loved animals. He was also handsome, and she
22:07
Speaker 1: said it became pretty obvious pretty soon that I was
22:11
Speaker 1: also the subject of his films. Long story short, they
22:15
Speaker 1: fall in love and make a baby.
22:18
Speaker 2: Right that they nicknamed Grub. Did you see anywhere why
22:21
Speaker 2: they nicknamed their kid Grub? I could not find it.
22:24
Speaker 1: I would assume because of a grubworm.
22:26
Speaker 2: But what did he do?
22:27
Speaker 1: Like?
22:28
Speaker 2: Did he was he famous for writhing around in the
22:30
Speaker 2: dirt or something like that. Why would you name your
22:32
Speaker 2: kid grub well?
22:34
Speaker 1: I mean this kid was raised in the jungle. I
22:35
Speaker 1: imagine all he did was writhe around in the dirt. Okay,
22:40
Speaker 1: I mean there's footage of him. He was literally raised
22:43
Speaker 1: in a jungle in a cage. Sounds bad, but it
22:47
Speaker 1: was a big pin that they had previously used for animals,
22:50
Speaker 1: and she decorated it all up for her son just
22:53
Speaker 1: to keep him safe. It was very large. It was
22:55
Speaker 1: like a large, you know, pin, less than a cage,
22:59
Speaker 1: but was a cage. And the other thing she said, too,
23:04
Speaker 1: was that having her own human baby really helped her
23:10
Speaker 1: research it. It made her understand the how chimpanzee mothers
23:15
Speaker 1: behaved and vice versa. And she said it really just
23:19
Speaker 1: added a lot to her understanding of the family groups.
23:24
Speaker 2: NAT that's pretty neat so around this time, So what
23:29
Speaker 2: that was the early sixties. I think that her husband
23:34
Speaker 2: showed up and her son was born in the late sixties.
23:36
Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty seven, okay, in the I think in nineteen
23:40
Speaker 2: sixty three National Geographic it essentially told the world that
23:43
Speaker 2: Jing goodall existed in what she was doing. There was
23:46
Speaker 2: an article cover article called My Life among the Wild Chimpanzees,
23:52
Speaker 2: and she was starting to recount this is the thing
23:54
Speaker 2: that she would become most advanced at, in addition to
23:59
Speaker 2: chimpanzee's studies, is telling the rest of the world about
24:02
Speaker 2: chimpanzees in order to get the world to keep from
24:07
Speaker 2: driving chimpanzees and other animals into extinction. That was her
24:10
Speaker 2: kind of second love.
24:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And again they started, you know, her
24:17
Speaker 1: the fact that she was an attractive young woman came
24:19
Speaker 1: up in the press and the articles were framed as
24:22
Speaker 1: you know, Beauty and the Beast and nat Geo cover
24:26
Speaker 1: girl and stuff like that, which it bothered her some,
24:29
Speaker 1: but she did realize that that got more attention and
24:33
Speaker 1: that that inspired young women, you know, to develop interest
24:37
Speaker 1: in science and stuff like that. And so she was like,
24:40
Speaker 1: it's it's fine, this is what we're dealing with here
24:43
Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, and it's bringing you know, attention
24:47
Speaker 1: to my cause. Right.
24:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, she would have a really good kind of a
24:52
Speaker 2: feel for that. And I keep speaking of her in
24:54
Speaker 2: the past ten she's not dead. She just turned ninety
24:57
Speaker 2: in April, and she seems to be doing just fine.
24:59
Speaker 2: Her foundation says she still travels about three hundred days
25:02
Speaker 2: a year doing speaking appearances on behalf of chimpanzees and
25:06
Speaker 2: nature and earth in general. And a good example of
25:10
Speaker 2: her kind of figuring out or knowing a good pr
25:16
Speaker 2: piece when she sees it, her opportunity when she sees
25:18
Speaker 2: it came in nineteen eighty seven Gary Larson, who did
25:22
Speaker 2: the Far Side, one of the great comic strips of
25:26
Speaker 2: all time.
25:28
Speaker 1: You know, oh yeah, that's going to be a subject soon.
25:32
Speaker 2: Okay, So he did a far Side one one comic
25:36
Speaker 2: panel or one panel comic of a female chimp grooming
25:41
Speaker 2: a male chimp, and the caption is the female chimp saying, well, well,
25:45
Speaker 2: another blonde hair, conducting a little more research with that.
25:49
Speaker 2: Jane Goodall tramp and the Jane Goodall Institute found out
25:53
Speaker 2: about this and sent Gary Larson a cease and desist letter,
25:56
Speaker 2: and that's where everything ended.
26:00
Speaker 1: No, no, no, of course not, you're just being coy
26:03
Speaker 1: good always out of town. Apparently she got back in town,
26:06
Speaker 1: heard about it, thought it was very funny, said Gary,
26:10
Speaker 1: you can tear up that cease and desist letter, and
26:13
Speaker 1: book your ticket for Africa.
26:18
Speaker 2: You're going, and you're going, and you're going.
26:21
Speaker 1: And that's what happened. She reached out to him, he
26:27
Speaker 1: came out there. He actually gave the Institute permission to
26:32
Speaker 1: use the cartoon on T shirts for fundraising. She wrote
26:35
Speaker 1: a preface for one of his book collections and it
26:39
Speaker 1: turned into like this school friendship.
26:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, so prior to that, we kind of jumped ahead
26:44
Speaker 2: a little bit. But prior to that, she in addition
26:47
Speaker 2: to that National Geographic cover story, less than ten years later,
26:51
Speaker 2: she released her first book, In the Shadow of Man,
26:54
Speaker 2: And this is around where she really became like a
26:57
Speaker 2: science communicator, which she's been forever. She was one of
27:00
Speaker 2: the early ones, pre Sagan even. I mean, she released
27:04
Speaker 2: this book in nineteen seventy one and it was telling
27:06
Speaker 2: the world again about all of the stuff she had
27:08
Speaker 2: found about chimpanzees and really just revolutionizing our understanding of
27:14
Speaker 2: chimpanzees and animals in general. And her work was so
27:18
Speaker 2: significant that, remember she only graduated high school. Cambridge University
27:23
Speaker 2: came a knock in and said, hey, you want a PhD.
27:26
Speaker 2: Because we got a seat for you here, come take it.
27:29
Speaker 2: And she thought about it a while consulting Gary Larson.
27:32
Speaker 2: He said, Hey, I haven't met you yet. This doesn't
27:34
Speaker 2: make any sense, and finally agreed, Sure, I'll get your
27:38
Speaker 2: I'll take a PhD course with you guys Cambridge.
27:42
Speaker 1: That's right. She got a degree in the study of
27:44
Speaker 1: animal behavior, that's mythology in nineteen sixty six. No, we're
27:48
Speaker 1: all over the place of the timeline. It's fine. I
27:52
Speaker 1: hope everyone gets what is following the story. Sure, for
27:56
Speaker 1: about five years she worked at Stanford as a visiting
27:59
Speaker 1: professor and psychiatry. Also became a visiting professor of zoology
28:04
Speaker 1: at Tanzania's University of Daris Salam. While all this is
28:09
Speaker 1: going on, though, she's not like, oh, by the way,
28:11
Speaker 1: I'm just leaving Gmbhi. For years and years at a time,
28:16
Speaker 1: she was basically there from nineteen sixty to seventy five.
28:20
Speaker 1: It was her home. It was her emotional home, her
28:22
Speaker 1: spiritual home. She felt very, very tied to Gombi into
28:27
Speaker 1: that specific area, and you know that was where she
28:31
Speaker 1: started a family and was raising a son. It was
28:34
Speaker 1: her place.
28:35
Speaker 2: So I didn't see the documentary did they cover why
28:37
Speaker 2: she left? Was it because of her son? Because I
28:39
Speaker 2: saw that she was conflicted, and I realized she had
28:44
Speaker 2: to decide raise a sun or study chimps.
28:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to be schooled formally schooled in England.
28:51
Speaker 1: But also there was the issue of her marriage, and
28:53
Speaker 1: that's you know, we might as well talk about it now.
28:57
Speaker 1: She started to travel some with her husband to other
29:01
Speaker 1: places for him to film because he didn't get all
29:04
Speaker 1: his work through that GEO. Eventually he has work with
29:08
Speaker 1: them completely dried up, so he had no reason to
29:09
Speaker 1: be there other than the fact that his wife was
29:12
Speaker 1: there and loved her work. But it was at a
29:14
Speaker 1: time and he was one of these guys where he
29:16
Speaker 1: was like, hey, you know, work comes first and I
29:19
Speaker 1: hope you can support me. She did that for a
29:21
Speaker 1: little while and then she said by that time, in
29:24
Speaker 1: a very English way, she said that had we had
29:27
Speaker 1: begun bickering, and that seemed to be the kindest way
29:30
Speaker 1: to say that. You know, their marriage was kind of
29:34
Speaker 1: on fragile ground and they would eventually part ways because
29:38
Speaker 1: of that and because of life and work, and it
29:40
Speaker 1: just seemed like it didn't work.
29:42
Speaker 2: Out, gotcha. So five years after she started, she established
29:47
Speaker 2: the Gombi Stream Research Center again in the Gombi Wildlife
29:52
Speaker 2: preserve game preserve, which means you can go hunt there.
29:56
Speaker 2: She very fortunately met and married a member of parliament
29:59
Speaker 2: in tan Zania named Derek Bryson, and he happened to
30:04
Speaker 2: direct the country's national parks and went presto Chanjo and
30:08
Speaker 2: turned the game reserve into a national park protecting Gambia
30:11
Speaker 2: and its inhabitants.
30:13
Speaker 1: Pretty cool, it is pretty cool.
30:15
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, he passed away from cancer five years later, and
30:19
Speaker 2: from that point on, Jane Goodall was a swinging solo lady.
30:26
Speaker 1: That's right, and you know, I'm sure it was a
30:29
Speaker 1: tragedy for her life, but she sort of ended up
30:33
Speaker 1: being married to her work and seemed very happy to be.
30:36
Speaker 1: She spent decades and decades at the Gambi Center, publishing
30:41
Speaker 1: hundreds of papers. All kinds of researchers and doctoral students
30:47
Speaker 1: have done field work there, gotten their PhDs through there.
30:52
Speaker 1: She is still very active, like you said, as part
30:54
Speaker 1: of the Jane Goodall Institute, which is basically run by
30:59
Speaker 1: Tanzanians and has just you know, she's it's easy to
31:05
Speaker 1: think now, like you said, like you see so many
31:08
Speaker 1: documentaries and so much footage of people doing research and
31:13
Speaker 1: just no one had done this stuff to that degree
31:15
Speaker 1: at the time, as far as just living among the animals.
31:19
Speaker 1: And it just can't be overstated how revolutionary this idea was.
31:23
Speaker 1: This twenty six year old, you know, young British woman
31:26
Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, that's what I want to do.
31:28
Speaker 1: I want to climb a tree and be with them.
31:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Lewis Leaky had a knack for picking the
31:34
Speaker 2: right people for this kind of work. He also hired
31:38
Speaker 2: two other young women over the years. Diane Fosse, who
31:42
Speaker 2: studied gorillas in Rwanda who is very memorably played by
31:45
Speaker 2: Sigourney Weaver and Gorillas in the Mist. Yeah, and another
31:48
Speaker 2: woman named Berrute Galdicas who studied orangutangs in Borneo. And
31:53
Speaker 2: when you put Diane Fossei and Barute Galdicas and Jan
31:57
Speaker 2: Good all together, you had the group that were known
31:59
Speaker 2: as the Trymates.
32:01
Speaker 1: Pretty funny.
32:02
Speaker 2: We just couldn't not mention that it was just too good.
32:06
Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't give them that name. No, no, actually,
32:10
Speaker 1: to make it clear.
32:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Chuck, we're starting to have a little too
32:14
Speaker 2: much fun. I say, we need to take a break
32:16
Speaker 2: and recompose ourselves, come back and just get serious again.
32:21
Speaker 1: All right, all right, so earlier in the episode you
32:52
Speaker 1: mentioned a family made up of the letter F where
32:58
Speaker 1: she you know, this is how she named and cataloged
33:01
Speaker 1: these groups in these families and it would help her
33:03
Speaker 1: keep track of things. And we're gonna tell you a
33:06
Speaker 1: little story that Livia dug up about the F family
33:10
Speaker 1: led by Flow, who was the mama to her young children.
33:13
Speaker 1: And Flow was pretty instrumental in good Alls understanding of
33:19
Speaker 1: just how these chip families worked. And then later through
33:23
Speaker 1: the just beyond the family, the whole group and local
33:27
Speaker 1: culture of that family.
33:29
Speaker 2: Right, and the whole group that they studied that the
33:33
Speaker 2: Flow in her family were members of was the cass Kela.
33:36
Speaker 2: And there were other groups that ended up being studied,
33:40
Speaker 2: if not by a good All, but by other research
33:42
Speaker 2: scientists and doctoral students who showed up over the decades.
33:46
Speaker 2: But kesse Kela was the group that she kind of
33:50
Speaker 2: made her name on and did her research on originally.
33:54
Speaker 2: And like you said, from studying these these families so closely,
33:59
Speaker 2: she watched like how generations interacted sometimes with their own
34:04
Speaker 2: kin group like Flow had a son named Fabian who
34:10
Speaker 2: overthrew his younger brother, who's overthrown by his younger brother
34:14
Speaker 2: Fagan to become the dominant male, and she noticed, like
34:18
Speaker 2: becoming a dominant male of your family or of your group,
34:21
Speaker 2: I should say, there's not one set way to do it.
34:25
Speaker 2: Some do it by Some chimpanzees do it by being
34:28
Speaker 2: kind and calm in the face of aggression. Others do
34:33
Speaker 2: it through sheer force and bullying. Vegan was known to
34:39
Speaker 2: just basically do it through trickery, like he would lead
34:42
Speaker 2: others in the group away from food and then run
34:45
Speaker 2: back and get it himself. Somehow he became the dominant male.
34:48
Speaker 2: But by studying these chimpanzees this closely, she was able
34:51
Speaker 2: to kind of see individual personalities and how those personalities
34:55
Speaker 2: work together to create a society.
34:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's you know, well, it's a game of
35:01
Speaker 1: thrones up in there, basically. Yeah. He had Flow's daughter, Fifi,
35:05
Speaker 1: she became the dominant female. She gave birth to nine kids,
35:09
Speaker 1: one of which was a daughter named Flossi, So this
35:11
Speaker 1: is Flow's grand baby. Flossie ended up leaving that group
35:17
Speaker 1: for a neighboring community called the Matumba Community. Another one
35:22
Speaker 1: of her children was Freud, born in seventy one. Freud
35:26
Speaker 1: grew up and then along with Fifi and Vegan helped
35:31
Speaker 1: him rise within that hierarchy even though he was like
35:35
Speaker 1: not really cut out for the job. Became the dominant
35:37
Speaker 1: male in nineteen ninety three. So, like families are leaving
35:40
Speaker 1: communities joining up with others who had previously left the community,
35:45
Speaker 1: they're kind of grooming successors and like propping up other
35:50
Speaker 1: chimps is like helping them become the leader and the
35:53
Speaker 1: dominant male or female. And it's just just fascinating for
35:57
Speaker 1: her to sit there and like document all this stuff.
35:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very much Kevellian totally. Now we have to
36:02
Speaker 2: talk about Frodo, who was one of Fifi's sons, one
36:08
Speaker 2: of Flow's grandsons. He was born in nineteen seventy six,
36:12
Speaker 2: and he is one of the more famous chimpanzees of
36:16
Speaker 2: all time because he was bad to the bone. Yeah,
36:19
Speaker 2: he was. You if you believe in chimps having an
36:23
Speaker 2: internal life and empathy and awareness of others' experiences, then
36:28
Speaker 2: you would consider Frodo a.
36:30
Speaker 1: Murderer, straight up murderer, totally for real.
36:33
Speaker 2: I've seen it argue that he should be considered a murderer.
36:36
Speaker 2: He was just that bad.
36:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he killed people, he did.
36:41
Speaker 2: So he deposed his brother Freud back in nineteen ninety seven,
36:45
Speaker 2: and he was one of the He was the one
36:47
Speaker 2: I was citing when I said some of them do
36:49
Speaker 2: it just through sheer force and intimidation. That was Frodo.
36:52
Speaker 2: He didn't have a lot of friends, he didn't have
36:54
Speaker 2: many alliances. He was just the biggest chimp and the
36:58
Speaker 2: meanest chimp. And he from a young age he started
37:02
Speaker 2: bullying Jane Goodall. I think I don't want to anthropomorphise here,
37:06
Speaker 2: but I'm quite certain, one hundred percent certain in fact,
37:09
Speaker 2: that he noted Jane Goodall was the person in charge
37:13
Speaker 2: of the humans, and he targeted her specifically. He attacked
37:18
Speaker 2: other humans over the years, but Jane Goodall. They said
37:22
Speaker 2: that he would have a certain look on his face
37:25
Speaker 2: that he reserved just for her, and he put her
37:28
Speaker 2: in for some of the worst treatment, almost broke her
37:31
Speaker 2: neck once, and she said kind of famously that she
37:35
Speaker 2: was alive because he wasn't trying to kill her, that
37:38
Speaker 2: he was just trying to show her who is boss,
37:41
Speaker 2: and that if he wanted her dead, she would be
37:43
Speaker 2: dead right now.
37:44
Speaker 1: Which you know, again not to use the A word,
37:48
Speaker 1: but it sounds like he had respect for her.
37:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in a way, like a kind of a
37:56
Speaker 2: backhanded way.
37:57
Speaker 1: I would say he allowed her to live.
38:00
Speaker 2: Right, I guess so, or maybe he'd needed her.
38:04
Speaker 1: He let Gary Larson live in nineteen eighty eight when
38:06
Speaker 1: Carrie Larson got his arm yanked, giving him a legit injury.
38:12
Speaker 1: So that happened as well, but very sadly. Frodo was
38:17
Speaker 1: probably most well known for killing a toddler, a fourteen
38:20
Speaker 1: month old in two thousand and two. It was the
38:23
Speaker 1: daughter of a park attendant who was visiting with his wife,
38:26
Speaker 1: and he killed this fourteen month old and partially ate
38:30
Speaker 1: this fourteen month old, and people spoke up and were like, hey,
38:34
Speaker 1: you need to kill this chimp and take him out,
38:37
Speaker 1: and Jane Goodall went to bat for him, and it's like, basically,
38:40
Speaker 1: it's a chimp being a chimp, and we're the ones
38:43
Speaker 1: that are here, and you know there's cars killing kids
38:46
Speaker 1: all over the place. You know, go out and take
38:48
Speaker 1: all the cars away.
38:49
Speaker 2: That's called a straw man argument.
38:51
Speaker 1: It is.
38:52
Speaker 2: There's a thing though, the remember I said, I saw,
38:55
Speaker 2: I'd argue that like he was a Frodo should be
38:57
Speaker 2: considered a murderer. Certainly could be yeah, I think the
39:00
Speaker 2: same person who made that argument was had been a
39:04
Speaker 2: researcher at Gambi and argued, like, yes, we need to
39:08
Speaker 2: kill Frodo. He's a murderer. Like he did that, he
39:11
Speaker 2: knew what he was doing. He's a murderer. We need
39:13
Speaker 2: to put him down. And she argued that they intervened
39:17
Speaker 2: when the chimps were starving, they intervened when they needed
39:20
Speaker 2: medical attention, but they're not going to intervene when the
39:23
Speaker 2: chimp murders a human baby. It just seemed like a
39:27
Speaker 2: pretty good argument, I think. At the same time, though,
39:31
Speaker 2: if you're Jane Goodall and you're like, well, chimps are
39:33
Speaker 2: kind of like humans, and humans are kind of like chimps.
39:36
Speaker 2: We don't kill Frodo when he eats chimp babies, which
39:40
Speaker 2: they do, so why would you do that for.
39:43
Speaker 1: A human baby.
39:44
Speaker 2: Seems a little out of touch to me with you know,
39:46
Speaker 2: human society in general. But I guess I get both
39:49
Speaker 2: sides in that case.
39:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's one of the things we should
39:53
Speaker 1: talk about. I guess is that later in her career,
39:56
Speaker 1: she you know, she basically said, hey, if I had
40:00
Speaker 1: it to do over again, I would do it differently.
40:02
Speaker 1: We probably should not have been feeding these things bananas.
40:06
Speaker 1: We probably shouldn't have been I shouldn't have been holding
40:08
Speaker 1: baby chimps like they were human babies and petting them
40:11
Speaker 1: and stuff. And I should have maybe been a little
40:14
Speaker 1: more dispassionate in my work because if you want, you know,
40:18
Speaker 1: really accurate data and results, like again, you shouldn't be
40:22
Speaker 1: handing them food and stuff. So, you know, she came
40:25
Speaker 1: clean about the things that she felt like she had
40:27
Speaker 1: her missteps over the years as a researcher. So I
40:31
Speaker 1: take my hat off to her for that, and very sadly,
40:34
Speaker 1: it looks like, you know, it's possible at least that
40:37
Speaker 1: they're stay there, their interactions, they're just merely being there.
40:42
Speaker 1: Could have been one of the factors in what was
40:45
Speaker 1: known as the Gombi chimpanzee War, when in nineteen seventy
40:49
Speaker 1: one there was kind of a full on war between
40:55
Speaker 1: two groups of chimpanzees that played out right in front
40:58
Speaker 1: of her eyes.
41:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the dominant male of the Caskela group died
41:06
Speaker 2: and I guess he was holding the glue together. This
41:08
Speaker 2: guy was like Tito or something, and the group splintered.
41:11
Speaker 2: I think nine adults and their kids said, we're going
41:15
Speaker 2: to form our own group, and they took over the
41:17
Speaker 2: southern half of the range, and the original Caskela. The
41:21
Speaker 2: remaining Caskela they stuck to the northern part of the
41:23
Speaker 2: range at first. I think over the years, the male
41:28
Speaker 2: started making aggressive sounds and gestures to one another, and
41:32
Speaker 2: it became clear that they were no longer treating them
41:35
Speaker 2: as a kin group. You know, these were no longer friends,
41:38
Speaker 2: even though they had been super tight friends when they
41:40
Speaker 2: lived together. These were now enemies and trespassers and encroachers,
41:44
Speaker 2: and the whole thing came to a head starting in
41:47
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four when Godie, one of the members of
41:52
Speaker 2: the tribe that had broken away and took up in
41:54
Speaker 2: the south, was just sitting there eating fruit and six
41:57
Speaker 2: Caskela males ambushed him and I had to get away,
42:01
Speaker 2: and they got him and they beat him to death
42:03
Speaker 2: over a period I think about ten minutes, and that
42:07
Speaker 2: kicked off the what are known as, like you said,
42:09
Speaker 2: the Gombi Chimpanzee War.
42:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then other wars had been documented since then
42:17
Speaker 1: in different areas between different groups, and like I said,
42:21
Speaker 1: you know, part of the reason was they were being
42:23
Speaker 1: sort of choked out by human development. Part of it
42:27
Speaker 1: was because there was a more stressful atmosphere though, with
42:30
Speaker 1: people there watching and observing and doing what she was doing.
42:33
Speaker 1: So I don't I'm not going to say that really
42:36
Speaker 1: charnished her work. If anything, it did show that they
42:41
Speaker 1: observed something else that they didn't know had previously happened,
42:44
Speaker 1: which is they could be very territorial and go to
42:46
Speaker 1: war like this. But since that time she has just
42:51
Speaker 1: been a tireless advocate for animals over the ensuing decades,
42:55
Speaker 1: like you said, into her early nineties now with the
42:58
Speaker 1: Jane Goodall Institute that is based in Virginia, has twenty
43:02
Speaker 1: offices around the world, and she continues to write books
43:06
Speaker 1: and speak and do ted talks, and she's just still
43:10
Speaker 1: kicking it.
43:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. She had a podcast called the jing Goodall Hope
43:14
Speaker 2: Cast that she launched during the pandemic, and then as
43:19
Speaker 2: soon as she could stop, she stopped. The last episode
43:21
Speaker 2: came out in twenty twenty two. She's very famously her
43:24
Speaker 2: quote was that sucked.
43:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. By the way, when I said she's still kicking it,
43:30
Speaker 1: I meant kicking, but like not just kicking it on
43:32
Speaker 1: the couch. That's what kicking it really kicking. Yeah. Now
43:35
Speaker 1: she's just still very active, and I just have a
43:39
Speaker 1: lot of respect for the lady. She's awesome.
43:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is an awesome person, and yeah she gets
43:44
Speaker 2: criticized by people in academia still, But like I said
43:49
Speaker 2: at the outset, she's just the world loves her, like
43:52
Speaker 2: she's done so much good that whatever missteps she has
43:56
Speaker 2: or whatever weird side she takes in moral quandaries, like
44:01
Speaker 2: the world just forgives her. It's like it's Jane Goodall.
44:04
Speaker 2: She does good for the planet and has the whole
44:07
Speaker 2: time essentially agreed. If you want to know more about
44:11
Speaker 2: Jane Goodall, there's a lot to read about her and
44:14
Speaker 2: by her, and you can listen to her hope casts.
44:17
Speaker 2: I presume they didn't erase all of the episodes. And
44:21
Speaker 2: in the meantime, while you're looking all that stuff up,
44:23
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and kick it old school with listener mail.
44:29
Speaker 1: Let me call this the Ballad of grit, because that
44:31
Speaker 1: is what Ed calls it, Okay in the subject line,
44:35
Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm a self described band of great I
44:39
Speaker 1: should say I've never considered myself a conscientious person to
44:42
Speaker 1: the full meaning of the word. However, I do consider
44:45
Speaker 1: one of my strengths is being responsible. My opinion is
44:49
Speaker 1: that it's an insult for a gritty person to be
44:52
Speaker 1: confused with being conscientious. Conscientiousness is a luxury for the
44:57
Speaker 1: already bright minded person. In my opinion, I believe most
45:00
Speaker 1: intelligent people who are successful are equally gifted with conscientiousness. Grit,
45:05
Speaker 1: on the other hand, is the ugly twin of conscientiousness.
45:09
Speaker 1: It's the path less travel to success. It's how I
45:11
Speaker 1: got through college during an engineering degree, even though I
45:15
Speaker 1: graduated with a low GPA, barely scraping by in many
45:18
Speaker 1: classes and had to retake some because I didn't pass
45:20
Speaker 1: to begin with. My road was less traveled than it
45:23
Speaker 1: was a tough one. I worked forty hours a week
45:25
Speaker 1: for five years while I supported myself in college, and
45:29
Speaker 1: I was compared to my peer graduates with whom I
45:31
Speaker 1: lived at home with her parents, who had the funds
45:33
Speaker 1: to build proper projects for courses. Grit is invisible, guys.
45:37
Speaker 1: It can't be measured. Comes from within. Grit is what
45:40
Speaker 1: you have when you succeed without conscientiousness. I love the
45:44
Speaker 1: show that is from ED.
45:47
Speaker 2: I think ED is a pseudonym for Angela Duckworth. I
45:50
Speaker 2: think this is Angela Duckworths writing in it. Good email, Yeah,
45:56
Speaker 2: this is a good email. Good for you for persevering.
45:59
Speaker 2: Hats off to you, man, for sure, I admire anybody
46:02
Speaker 2: who worked and put themselves through college. That's really something
46:06
Speaker 2: I like me. Yes, I admire you for that.
46:10
Speaker 1: Oh, the first part was paid for and then I
46:12
Speaker 1: was on my own.
46:12
Speaker 2: Hey man, even a little bit still counts like that.
46:16
Speaker 2: That's hard to do.
46:17
Speaker 1: You know that was fine? Waited tables whatever.
46:20
Speaker 2: Shate it, all right, just forget it. I'll direct my
46:23
Speaker 2: comments toward Ed only then.
46:24
Speaker 1: All right, No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
46:27
Speaker 2: If you want to be like ED and give us
46:29
Speaker 2: an email to argue over, we love that kind of thing.
46:33
Speaker 2: You can get in touch with us via stuff podcast
46:36
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.
46:40
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
46:43
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46:48
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