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Just Transition to a Decarbonised Economy for South Africa (JUST SA): Western Cape Edition prt.2 · TIPS Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast, Tips Talk.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: The show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I am your host, Elise Hutting, and today we are asking why it is important for government officials in the Western Cape to understand the impact of climate change, the imperative to greening our economy, and as well as making it just.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: We are in Cape Town delivering a two-day workshop to capacitate local and provincial government officials to understand the impact of climate change on the province, and we unpack green economy policy with the aim to turn policy into action.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Hello to all the listeners.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Ruhan Fury.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a senior technical advisor working within the Justice A program for the GIZ here in South Africa.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: And in that program, I'm responsible for two main outputs or components of that program.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: The first one is in relation to all of the national policy support and stakeholder support that we provide at a national level.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: The second aspect is the oversight of the work in relation to mine rehabilitation and mine water and land rehabilitation.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: My second hat that I also wear is I am the implementation manager for the IKIJET Global project here in South Africa.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: That project is really to create dialogue platforms and exchange platforms for different core regions that are currently in transition in different nations.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: These nations include Chile, Colombia, Vietnam, Indonesia, and amongst others.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think these two roles or the hats that I wear, I try and utilize them so that they can also complement one another so that we can constantly learn from the international background and experience as we are bilaterally implementing work under the Justice Aid program in South Africa.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Ruan.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's really lovely having you engaging with our local municipal officers and also the provincial government.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: What is one of the key things that stood out for you over the course of the past two days during the training?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it is always of quality and very interesting.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: For me, the great takeaway is always getting the perspective from the municipal officials in different provinces.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was fortunate enough to be involved or related to some of the other trainings happening in other provinces.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very interesting for me to see how the Western Cape is also tackling and addressing the aspects of just transition in their context.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think there is perhaps sometimes a perception that the just transition is all about the core regions.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, they're dealing with a significant challenge.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: But when you come to a region like the Western Cape, you realize that the just transition is a national and international challenge because there are still aspects here where there's impacts of climate change on their day-to-day activities, costs that they are incurring in terms of loss and damage that could have gone to other resources.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: All of these aspects make it very real that it is something that we have to exchange on.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: We have to have cross discussions with other provincial authorities and local municipalities.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: So very interesting listening to the colleagues pertaining to those aspects.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: And for you, going back to the office at GIZ and Pretoria tomorrow, what would be the key takeaways that you feel is adding value to the design of the program and future action steps that we need to consider?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is especially on the Justice A point of view, we've been spending quite a lot of time over the last couple of months refining and reassessing how we can support municipalities.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's incredibly important.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, the work that we're doing with TIPS is really to get this ball rolling.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: But there are so many other aspects that we're trying to consider.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: We're also having a look at how to capacitate municipalities by actually working with the likes of the NBI to second individuals into the municipalities themselves with a focus on Pumalanga as a start, so that the information and the knowledge that is being shared in aspects like this training can then be instilled in a very practical manner in the municipalities that are also dealing with this in our day-to-day by having someone in there that does a needs assessment that understands what are the challenges and how can we still instill aspects of climate change and just transition into the municipality's day-to-day activities.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I hear what you're saying because we also see from our perspective as facilitators of the workshop that these fantastic policies, especially in the Western Cape, they are really polished, they ahead of even some of the master plan developments.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, a lot of this often doesn't trickle down to the municipal level and there's capacity constraints within the human resources trying to digest these green economy policies.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: So for you, what would you see as the biggest risk in terms of just transition goals for the Western Cape province?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think within the Western Cape province, I mean, as you say, they have progressed significantly on various aspects as a province as a whole.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you can also see that in terms of how the province as a whole has grown, and various structures and organizations within the province have been able to implement various aspects related to green economy and just transition.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think let me mention two specific challenges.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: First, the success attracts a lot of individuals.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you have a lot of individuals coming into the province, a lot of in-country migration, of people moving to this because there's more economic activity.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: But that also creates its own challenges because that puts more pressure on services that you're trying to address while climate change impacts are still occurring and while you're still trying to achieve a just transition.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: And you're seeing an economy growing, the population growing, economic activity growing, and you need to stay on top of that.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the first challenge I think they have.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: The second challenge to that is while that pressure is ongoing with all of this additional service delivery that is required, you shouldn't leave local, municipal, or the smaller towns behind, you know, because with all of this migration, all of these individuals coming to the province and the changes that are occurring, there's great policies on the provincial level, but how do you instill those policies in a very practical way to the smaller municipalities or the smaller towns so that they can also reap the benefit of what is happening and have their voice considered in the further development of such policies so that you move together as a whole.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: This is a I don't want to say it, but so that nobody is left behind, so that everybody is continuously part of this process going forward in a very dynamic and ever-changing environment.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for your insights today.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate everything that you've shared, and we look forward to the next workshop, hopefully, seeing another representative of the GIZ joining us.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for now.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm talking to Sagwata, and he will be sharing with us where he's from and what he's doing in his position, and what we are unpacking in the workshops that Justice A has been delivering over the past two days.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, welcome.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Please tell us a bit about yourself.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, my name's Sawata Manike.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I work for the South African Local Government Association, and my main role is I am the senior advisor for the economic growth and investment portfolio within the Western Cape Office of Salga.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're so happy to have you.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And is there anything that stood out for you from the capacity building over the past two days that make you maybe think slightly different about climate change or green economy or just transition agendas?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, actually, there is.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So my key takeaway was on the actual dominant economics as well.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And why I find the whole concept so interesting is that during my own university time, I quite fondly remember that whole metaphor being used of that thing taking off.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: So from the preconditions to dominate to the final age of mass consumption as well.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so the whole concept of that dominant economics just makes sense.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a sustainable way forward for us to just keep using more and more resources every single year.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: At a certain point, we must stop and say, wait, what's really going on right now?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: We can't continue consuming the way we have been consuming and just assuming that we'll be fine.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I also read somewhere that currently speaking, we're now using 1.2 earth or 1.5 earths per year worth of resources already right now.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does that all mean for the long-term sustainability of the country?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's quite a key thing for me going forward.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And what would this mean for you going back to the office?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is there any things that you think you might take back to your colleagues or change processes?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if you could also maybe touch a little bit on any risks that you see potentially that the just transition would bring to the context of your work and any possible opportunities?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so as mentioned before, I'm responsible for the economic growth and investment portfolio within South Western Cape.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the key programs which we are driving is the whole preferential procurement system right now.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So something which I would like to then explore going forward is how can we support local governments to then use preferential procurement to then support green economy jobs as well.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So not just supporting local businesses within those areas, but more specifically targeting those which are green and are sustainable going forward as well.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: What some of the risks might be in terms of this is firstly just the amount of time getting through all of those various legislative requirements from the MFMAA, which is the municipal finance.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't quite remember the full acronym for it at this point in time right now.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's going to be quite a big risk as well because most CFOs right now, their biggest concern is a negative audit finding right now.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So how can we use some of those preferential procurement policies to support the green economy without us running afoul with any of those MFMA requirements?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that will be quite the biggest risk.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Another quite a big risk is going to be political support as well, because what we found is that uh sometimes people generally do not understand the just transition right now.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so if people don't understand it, they might not necessarily be then receptive to some of these ideas right now.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's going to be quite a bit of capacity building.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's not quite within my portfolio, but I do have colleagues working on the just transition within the program.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So for us to then tailor make a joint capacity building sessions with our political leaders going forward just to try and get these concepts across.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that sounds like there's a lot of work cut out for you, and I do love to hear the collaborative efforts and deepening the capacity building and really the need that's out there.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I wish you well on your work journey, and I thank you for your time to share your ideas with us today.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was great.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: We'd like to get to know our guest better, and he's gonna tell you a little bit more about himself.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much, Elise.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_04: I really appreciate the opportunity.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: My name is Kolile Kosi, and I am a theologian by training, but I work for the overstrand municipality.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_04: There I manage a department called Socioeconomic Services.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: Other people will know it as LED, Local Economic Development.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I manage our interventions in terms of how we grow the economy and how we bring in participants to work in the how we rope in, uh, whether it local or other collaborators from the intergovernmental relations.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: And so I am entrusted with that responsibility.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_04: As you will know, we need to grow the economy to be able to meet the requirements of the community.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: But my being here is for us to really make a very clear point that as we grow, we don't want to grow at the expense of our future generations.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: So growing things sustainably is what motivates us and places us here.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's fantastic.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's very positive.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to hear more about that.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: The vision that you have for the municipality and this sustainable way of growing and developing.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: From what you've learned and experienced over the course of the past two days at our workshop, is there any things that maybe stood out for you that you'd like to share with us that was of particular interest?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Elise.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, colleagues.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: I think for me, particularly the first day, yeah, where we're really dealing with more kind of the rationale, the reason why you go through just transitioning.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: That was to me very critical.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: Of particular interest was the emphasis that Dr.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: Simba made in terms of just the historical background of South Africa, in terms of how we have transitioned to be where we are at now, it was quite compelling just to look at how we have moved and also at the same time the gaps that are there.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so for me, then what I was really left with, particularly because just transition talks about justice.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: And in the justice elements which he referred to, one of those was restorative.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously, there is regenerative and in terms of and distributive justice.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: But in the restorative, it really speaks about not only stopping from here and going forward, but how do you then redress the imbalances of the past?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_04: Because the challenge and the risk to this is that in order for you to get buy-in from the people right now, you've got to show appreciation of where they are at, the difficulties that they are having right now, the struggles they have, and the hopes that then uh emanate from that.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because theirs is to say we are in a quagmire, we are in a difficult situation.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_04: Whatever you bring in, how does it meet my immediate needs?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's what really kind of stood out for me is that that's a conversation we must make.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_04: We are thinking about future generations, but we are also doing that within the context of current challenges, where people have suffered greatly because of upper dating particular kind of challenges and the legacy.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_04: And now when we want them to transist, you want to say, listen, we also are mindful of the need to redress so that together we can embrace the idea of safeguarding the resources we have for future generations.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I can just imagine in your position at the municipality, it's a daunting task.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Going back to the office after this capacity building workshop, what do you see ahead for yourself?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of risks or opportunities might there be that you need to consider incorporating just transition policies?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: Elise, we are, as I said earlier on, we are the overstrained municipality.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: We are one of the municipalities within the Western Cape province.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: And our municipality, largely there is known for aquaculture, where you raise abalone and such kind of commodities.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: And so because we are a coastal municipality, whatever happens in terms of the climate and all of that has a direct impact.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: Because we have our fishing cooperatives, for example, who makes their entire livelihood from the ocean.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: So if anything tampers with that ocean, those communities will be left stranded.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: And already, you know, you see in terms of the overfishing and those kind of challenges, already it has an impact in their lives.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because in our municipality, we don't have big industries.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: You don't have big manufacturing kind of factories.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: People there, those are fishing communities.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_04: And so what really faces me going back is to say, how do we then do what we do, being sensitive to the people that support those municipalities who are citizens of those municipalities.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_04: So the challenge for me then is to say, in terms of policy and regulatory framework, that is my work.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: I need to check what just SA does, I need to check what the green economy does, I need to check what government policies are, and tailor-make those to that community, first and foremost.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_04: But secondly, then I must say how does it speak to the expectations of the people that are them.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Also, the times misunderstanding of what this seeks to do.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because people are extremely skeptical.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: Whenever you're introducing something that's either than them, what they are looking for, people tend immediately to believe that this is just another way to shift our focus from the struggles, the day-to-day struggles we have.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_04: So that is the challenge that I have to really rope in and show people that this is beneficial in the here and now.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: And so that is a major challenge that I must grapple with.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: And then finally, along that line, is how do we rope in major industry players?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to mention their names, but you know, major fishing companies that also go the major industries that rely on abalone.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: How do we get these people to take their corporate social responsibilities serious?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because them not showing up at times makes our work difficult.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: It will be much easier if these big players are able to say that bridge.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: We will contribute our funds to build that bridge.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we will contribute our funds to assist with that schooling project.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: We will contribute our funds to assist with at times.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we used to run things like vegetable gardens to mitigate against food shortage.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_04: How do we then bring them to come in there?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: Because if they are not seen to be participating, this might create an impression that we're actually doing all what we do to just make sure that they continue with life as normal and as usual.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: And in this case, it is not.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for those sentiments on business as usual and also how just transition can really make a good impact in your local area.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing and thank you for being with us today.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: We look forward to hear more about any possible new developments that's going to affect people positively in your municipality through the Just Transition.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you and goodbye for today.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much, Elise.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for the opportunity.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: We would like to thank all our guests that participated in this podcast session today.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that wraps up our episode.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: A huge thank you to the guests for sharing their expertise, their time, and attending this training.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you will continue to champion the mandate of greening the economy in a just and equitable way.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And to our listeners, your support means the world.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and connect with us on social media.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, I'm Elise Hutting, your host, and I'm signing off.