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BOMBSHELL! NEW EYEWITNESS: I HAD SEX WITH LONG ISLAND SERIAL KILLER · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:14
Speaker 2: Rex Hureman, the so called Long Island serial killer in
0:19
Speaker 2: the news again, this as yet another body emerges. Is
0:25
Speaker 2: that body linked in any way to the Youwerman case?
0:29
Speaker 2: In the midst of a new body being found just
0:31
Speaker 2: minutes from Hureman's home, now four witnesses, seemingly impartial witnesses
0:38
Speaker 2: come forward identifying Rex Humorman.
0:43
Speaker 3: I mean, I see Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:46
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us here at Crime Stories and
0:48
Speaker 2: on series XEM one eleven.
0:50
Speaker 3: First of all, take a listen to this.
0:52
Speaker 4: Human remains have been found in a wooded area not
0:55
Speaker 4: more than a thirty minute drive from suspected You'll Go
0:57
Speaker 4: Beat serial killers Rex Heureman's home. The body, identified as
1:01
Speaker 4: twenty year old you Nelli Rainmos from Reno, was discovered
1:04
Speaker 4: in Sunken Meadows State Park on Long Island by park goers.
1:09
Speaker 4: The remains were along a trail at the eastern end
1:12
Speaker 4: of the park, which runs along Long Island's north shore.
1:15
Speaker 4: At least six victims of the Long Island at least
1:19
Speaker 4: six victims of the Long Island serial killer have been
1:22
Speaker 4: found on Gilgo Beach, which is along Long islands south shore.
1:27
Speaker 4: Reno's death has been ruled a homicide.
1:30
Speaker 2: Interesting, this is a young male victim, Janelle Moreno, discovered
1:36
Speaker 2: in Sunken Meadow State Park, just minutes away from Rex
1:41
Speaker 2: Huerman's home. But it's my understanding that this is a
1:48
Speaker 2: more recent killing or is it? Will it somehow be
1:54
Speaker 2: connected to Rex Huerman. It's just minutes from his home.
2:00
Speaker 2: They know he's implicated in the murders of many other
2:02
Speaker 2: young women and possibly one Asian male found near those
2:08
Speaker 2: female dead bodies. But in the midst of investigating a
2:11
Speaker 2: new dead body near Rex Human's home, four witnesses have
2:16
Speaker 2: now emerged. Listened to the Gilbert family lawyer Attorney John Ray.
2:22
Speaker 5: This is a witness who has every reason to have
2:28
Speaker 5: no bias, no interest in the case whatsoever.
2:31
Speaker 6: She is not a sex worker.
2:34
Speaker 5: And instead, back in the nineties, in the nineteen nineties,
2:39
Speaker 5: she was what is known then and now as a swinger,
2:44
Speaker 5: and they would go to certain sex clubs in New
2:46
Speaker 5: York City where they would switch partners with other people
2:50
Speaker 5: of like kind.
2:52
Speaker 6: One of the most important.
2:53
Speaker 5: Places that they would go was called La Trapeze on
2:57
Speaker 5: West twenty seventh Street in New York, right eight near.
3:02
Speaker 6: Rex Hureerman's office.
3:03
Speaker 2: Okay, this is significant because this club La Trapeze is
3:10
Speaker 2: very close to Rex Huerman's architectural office in Manhattan. And
3:14
Speaker 2: we know that a lot of the activity that is
3:19
Speaker 2: linking human back to the dead women, the.
3:21
Speaker 3: Sex workers occur at his office.
3:24
Speaker 2: Member's wife children are living in their home on Long Island.
3:30
Speaker 2: He catches very off of the Long Island railroad right
3:33
Speaker 2: there at Penn Station near his office, to go home,
3:37
Speaker 2: back and forth. And it's that hub, isn't it? Joining
3:41
Speaker 2: me an all star panel? But first to Mary Murphy
3:43
Speaker 2: investigative reporter pix Pigs eleven, also host of Hunt Inside,
3:51
Speaker 2: the thirteen year search for the Gilgo Beach Killer and
3:55
Speaker 2: needless is say, a recipient of many Emmy awards. A
4:01
Speaker 2: lot of the cell phone pings, a lot of the
4:04
Speaker 2: positioning of the suspect of Long Island serial killer recks
4:08
Speaker 2: hereman happens around his office. Even the pizza that was discarded,
4:15
Speaker 2: the food and drink that was later used to get
4:19
Speaker 2: DNA wasn't near his office. He was arrested near his office.
4:23
Speaker 2: Law Tepeze is near his office. So obviously, if you
4:27
Speaker 2: look at his activity psychologically, he uses his office as
4:33
Speaker 2: basically his batcave.
4:35
Speaker 7: That's a good way of putting it. There was a
4:38
Speaker 7: box of cell phone pings located right near his office,
4:41
Speaker 7: right near Penn Station. And some of the victims who
4:44
Speaker 7: were killed in a Gilgo Beach case, there's cell phones
4:47
Speaker 7: pinged near Penn Station and very close to his office.
4:51
Speaker 7: And we're told that one of the victims whose names
4:54
Speaker 7: emerged after his arrest, Karen Bergatta, that she was a
4:58
Speaker 7: street walker in midtown.
5:00
Speaker 2: So regarding the newest, the newest thing, this witness that
5:05
Speaker 2: comes forward, who goes to a swingers club where you know,
5:08
Speaker 2: you swap partners, La Trapeze on West twenty seven, how
5:12
Speaker 2: close is that to Huerman's Manhattan architectural office.
5:16
Speaker 7: I would say it's only about seven or eight blocks away.
5:18
Speaker 2: Guys, that is maybe a ten minute walk, maybe if
5:23
Speaker 2: you're catching red lights, a ten minute walk from his office.
5:27
Speaker 3: His office is often the hub of his activity.
5:30
Speaker 2: Joining me also in addition to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter
5:34
Speaker 2: of pix E eleven, Robin Drake joining us out of Virginia,
5:37
Speaker 2: behavioral expert, former FBI Special Agent in Chief of the
5:42
Speaker 2: FBI Counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, and I love this book.
5:49
Speaker 2: His book is Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's
5:52
Speaker 2: manual for behavior prediction.
5:55
Speaker 3: Man.
5:57
Speaker 2: We need you now, Drake, because you can put words
6:01
Speaker 2: to what I'm trying to express. Let's go with Scott Peterson.
6:05
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson kill Lacy his wife. We believe in their
6:10
Speaker 2: home on Covena in Modesto. That was his layer. What
6:16
Speaker 2: was his other layer, his office which had basically a
6:19
Speaker 2: storage area where he kept his secret boat, where he
6:23
Speaker 2: made cement.
6:25
Speaker 3: Let me just say, waits, we believe to weigh her
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Speaker 3: body down.
6:30
Speaker 2: What was his other layer where he would go fishing,
6:34
Speaker 2: his fishing hole where her body was discovered and then
6:39
Speaker 2: later found not far away when it came up from
6:42
Speaker 2: the bottom of the water. I'm trying to verbalize that
6:48
Speaker 2: killers use the area with which they are familiar. You
6:54
Speaker 2: want to get rid of a dead body, think about it,
6:56
Speaker 2: everybody on the palel thing.
6:57
Speaker 3: Where would you go to get rid of a dead body?
7:00
Speaker 3: You know where I would go?
7:01
Speaker 2: Seven bridges in South bibb County. It's swamp and there
7:07
Speaker 2: are seven bridges that go over it to link South
7:10
Speaker 2: bib County to the city of Macon. Why because I
7:13
Speaker 2: know where it is, how can you get rid of
7:16
Speaker 2: a dead body and a place you've never heard of?
7:18
Speaker 2: Explain what I'm saying, Drake, because I believe his hub
7:23
Speaker 2: of activity is going to be not just his home
7:27
Speaker 2: in Long Island at Gilgo Beach where bodies were disposed of,
7:29
Speaker 2: but his office right by this nightclub.
7:34
Speaker 8: YEA one hundred percent nancy. And it comes down to.
7:37
Speaker 9: What you said, feeling comfortable and creating what he's established
7:40
Speaker 9: as a behavior arc of what where he feels safe
7:44
Speaker 9: operating because he's got reps in those areas, and when
7:49
Speaker 9: we're dumping bodies in places, also when you're doing it,
7:53
Speaker 9: you've got to feel safe in that area with a
7:54
Speaker 9: law enforcement that area. So I think a lot of
7:56
Speaker 9: these things are actually putting a bigger point on law
8:00
Speaker 9: enforcement and what they saw and didn't see in questions
8:03
Speaker 9: there when it comes to the investigation. So, yeah, he's
8:06
Speaker 9: clearly displayed to this behavior arc of feeling safe operating
8:11
Speaker 9: in a secretive way from public view.
8:15
Speaker 2: You are hearing high profile lawyer John Ray. He is
8:21
Speaker 2: representing the family of Shannon Gilbert. Now you remember Shannon
8:27
Speaker 2: Gilbert whose body was found out on Gilgo At first,
8:30
Speaker 2: everybody said well, yeah, she's not really connected. This is
8:33
Speaker 2: just a coincidence. Who could buy that her body is
8:36
Speaker 2: near all the other women's bodies that are connected to
8:39
Speaker 2: hereman and she just happened to be dead right there. Okay,
8:44
Speaker 2: Now entering law trapeze, the.
8:47
Speaker 3: Bar for swingers, what does that have to do with Huerman?
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Speaker 5: Listen, sometimes several hundred people at a time would be
8:53
Speaker 5: involved in this place. It's heyday was right at the
8:58
Speaker 5: time that Karen Forta.
9:00
Speaker 6: Is involved in this case.
9:02
Speaker 5: In this situation, this particular woman was dating a police
9:08
Speaker 5: officer from New York City who was a narcotics a detective,
9:14
Speaker 5: and they would go to these switchy clubs, these swapping clubs.
9:19
Speaker 5: At or about Valentine's Day of nineteen ninety six, the
9:24
Speaker 5: couple went to Latropize and I think it was on
9:30
Speaker 5: the wall at latropez where an advertisement was placed to
9:34
Speaker 5: go to a house in Massapequa Park for partying, for switching,
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Speaker 5: for swapping.
9:39
Speaker 3: And isn't a shay Mary Murphy that that is where
9:41
Speaker 3: Rix Huerman lived with his wife.
9:43
Speaker 7: Yes, Rex Chuerman lived, Barren actually was raised there. He
9:46
Speaker 7: spent his whole life in Massapeople Park.
9:48
Speaker 2: Okay, so this witness, who was a swinger, goes to
9:53
Speaker 2: wa trapeze.
9:55
Speaker 3: So what wait for it.
9:57
Speaker 5: Listen, she went with her boyfriend out to Long Island,
10:04
Speaker 5: but before they went, her boyfriend picked up a woman
10:09
Speaker 5: in New York in the city and she was a
10:13
Speaker 5: sex worker. They went to Massapequa Park. They ended up
10:17
Speaker 5: going to rex Hureman's house. In the house was the
10:21
Speaker 5: wife of Rex Huremen and Rex Hureman and the other girl.
10:27
Speaker 5: The other girl who we believe to be Karen Vergatta.
10:35
Speaker 5: This girl disappears downstairs at the house. Rex Hureman disappears
10:43
Speaker 5: and according to our witness and other witnesses, when men
10:46
Speaker 5: are swingers, very often.
10:48
Speaker 6: They switch sexually.
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Speaker 5: They go back and forth between male and female.
10:53
Speaker 6: And so Yurman.
10:56
Speaker 5: Leaves the main floor and dis appears either into another
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Speaker 5: bedroom or downstairs.
11:03
Speaker 6: The witness talks to Rex's wife.
11:06
Speaker 2: Okay, whoa we're hearing all along? The wife knew nothing
11:11
Speaker 2: about what was going on. But according to this witness,
11:16
Speaker 2: who is not a sex worker, wasn't getting paid by anybody,
11:21
Speaker 2: wasn't answering to John says that rex Hueman's wife was
11:28
Speaker 2: part of this.
11:30
Speaker 3: Guys, this is a bombshell in this case. Listen.
11:35
Speaker 5: As they're leaving, the witness points out that she could
11:38
Speaker 5: see in the window looking out the girl that had
11:42
Speaker 5: come with them, and she says to her driver, her partner,
11:49
Speaker 5: what are we doing? No, we're taking her, and the
11:51
Speaker 5: partner says, don't worry, they're just playing a game. She stays,
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Speaker 5: there no problem with that. The girl runs out of
12:01
Speaker 5: the house naked and is running in front of the garage,
12:05
Speaker 5: and now the witness says, hey, shouldn't we be taking her?
12:10
Speaker 5: Something's wrong here, and the driver tells her no, they're
12:13
Speaker 5: just playing a game.
12:15
Speaker 6: Leave it, and they leave.
12:16
Speaker 3: They leave the girl there.
12:19
Speaker 2: We're talking about Karen Virgatta, one of the dead women,
12:25
Speaker 2: and this is how it ends.
12:28
Speaker 5: She never hears about the incident again. She distinctly remembers Urman.
12:34
Speaker 5: She also had intercourse with Urman that same day on TV.
12:39
Speaker 5: She sees the picture of Karen Vagatta and she recognizes
12:43
Speaker 5: her and said that's her, and she recognizes Rex Yuman,
12:47
Speaker 5: and so she comes forward. I interview her at great length.
12:52
Speaker 5: Detectives interview her. I interviewed her for a total of
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Speaker 5: nine hours, and I found her story to be credible.
13:12
Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
13:17
Speaker 2: Joining us right now. High profile lawyer John Ray. You
13:21
Speaker 2: can find him at John Ray Law dot net and
13:24
Speaker 2: he is a chosen attorney for the family of Shannon Gilbert.
13:29
Speaker 2: John Ray, thank you for being with us.
13:31
Speaker 10: Thank you.
13:31
Speaker 3: Wow. This is a huge.
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Speaker 2: Bombshell in the Rex Human case because before I was thinking,
13:38
Speaker 2: you know, John, You've tried a lot of cases, and
13:42
Speaker 2: I love nothing more than DNA deoxarivo nucleic acid, which
13:47
Speaker 2: we have in this case. Don't have much of it,
13:51
Speaker 2: but we have it, and we have the wife's hair
13:57
Speaker 2: on some connected to some of the dead body. We've
14:00
Speaker 2: got the defendant, Rex Human's hair connected to some of
14:04
Speaker 2: the bodies. But DNA, as you well know, can be
14:10
Speaker 2: argued away that it was a transfer, that it was
14:13
Speaker 2: an accident, that blah blah, blah blah. But when you
14:17
Speaker 2: combine DNA with an eyewitness that says I had sex
14:22
Speaker 2: with Humorman, I know what he looks like, and I
14:27
Speaker 2: left caring for God, and God helped me there that night,
14:30
Speaker 2: and she was never seen alive again. A witness willing
14:33
Speaker 2: to come forward and say I was a swinger, who
14:36
Speaker 2: wants to admit that on the stand.
14:38
Speaker 3: Ready to say that on the stand. To me, you know,
14:43
Speaker 3: when you have to put the devil in jail sometime,
14:45
Speaker 3: you got to go to hell to get your witness.
14:47
Speaker 2: Who do you think human's hanging out with nuns and
14:49
Speaker 2: priests and virgins. No, that to me gives this witness,
14:53
Speaker 2: your witness more credibility.
14:55
Speaker 10: John Ray, Well, you should also know that it's odd
15:01
Speaker 10: why they brought Karen with them if it was going
15:05
Speaker 10: to be swapping between couples. And that now is explained
15:10
Speaker 10: fully and consistently through Missus Ellerup's lawyer, Robert Macedonio. He
15:18
Speaker 10: went on television recently and said that there's no way
15:22
Speaker 10: that John Ray's witness can be correct because because his client,
15:27
Speaker 10: Missus Ellip Horeyeman's wife was pregnant at the time, so
15:32
Speaker 10: she would never have had sex. And that's perfectly. First
15:36
Speaker 10: of all, we know you can have sex if you're pregnant.
15:38
Speaker 2: But okay, hold on, John Ray, I got to write
15:41
Speaker 2: this down.
15:42
Speaker 3: This is significant.
15:43
Speaker 2: Hold on, So you're saying it's a couple swinging parties,
15:48
Speaker 2: So why do you bring a sex worker with you
15:51
Speaker 2: when the women are going to be swinging and the men.
15:53
Speaker 3: I don't need a.
15:55
Speaker 2: Fifth will right, But you're saying el was pregnant at
15:58
Speaker 2: the time and they needed that extra female.
16:01
Speaker 3: Am I getting this right?
16:02
Speaker 10: You are? But more importantly, it comes from the horse's mouth.
16:06
Speaker 10: It's Macedonio, who's the lawyer for missus Elliroup, who posits that,
16:11
Speaker 10: who states that on national television, And so we also
16:15
Speaker 10: have that fact consistent with the witness coming forward and
16:20
Speaker 10: saying that when she got there, Missus Ellrop did not
16:25
Speaker 10: want to have sex and had turned away.
16:28
Speaker 11: She's the witness.
16:29
Speaker 10: Thought it was because the witness was African American, but
16:32
Speaker 10: it turns out Macedonia gave us the correct explanation, which
16:36
Speaker 10: is that she was pregnant didn't want to have sex.
16:38
Speaker 10: And by the way, that also explains why they picked
16:42
Speaker 10: up Karen, for got her in the first place, to
16:45
Speaker 10: bring her along to be the partner, and we couldn't
16:49
Speaker 10: figure that out before we knew that about the pregnancy.
16:52
Speaker 10: So it's also very likely that the detective swapper who
16:59
Speaker 10: was driving the card to go there, previously knew hooyaman
17:03
Speaker 10: that they already had a relationship.
17:06
Speaker 3: You mean as Zen had swap partners before.
17:09
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, hold on, John Ray, I'm not gonna ask
17:12
Speaker 2: you the name.
17:14
Speaker 3: But do you know who the cop is?
17:18
Speaker 10: I do.
17:19
Speaker 2: It's not out there yet, right, correct, Well, he better
17:22
Speaker 2: expect a big fat subpoena coming his way, and I
17:24
Speaker 2: ain't gonna stay quiet for long. Guys with me is
17:27
Speaker 2: John Ray, the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family. And now
17:33
Speaker 2: you see why he has interviewed this woman who was
17:36
Speaker 2: not a sex worker, who has come forward and admitted, Yeah,
17:41
Speaker 2: I was a swinger.
17:43
Speaker 3: I went to Low Trapeze Club. A lot of swingers
17:45
Speaker 3: go there.
17:46
Speaker 2: We y'all went to a party in Massapequa, and this
17:50
Speaker 2: is what happened.
17:50
Speaker 3: I slept. I had sex with Hureman.
17:54
Speaker 2: That's like eating a dirt sandwich to have to admit that,
17:57
Speaker 2: But in my mind that as to her credibility, Doctor
18:01
Speaker 2: Joni Johnson is with us very well known forensic psychologist
18:07
Speaker 2: and private investigator. Doctor Johnson performs risk threat assessments on
18:12
Speaker 2: violent offenders and she's the author of Serial Killer. As
18:17
Speaker 2: one hundred one questions true crime fans ask. You can
18:21
Speaker 2: find doctor Johnson at doctor Joni Johnson dot com. Doctor Johnson,
18:27
Speaker 2: let me give you a good example. Okay, just recently
18:30
Speaker 2: we hear from that POC your van der Sloot and
18:35
Speaker 2: he gives his confession, and I'm saying that with quotes.
18:39
Speaker 2: I'll believe one line on his confession, I kill Natalie.
18:42
Speaker 2: The rest he fabricates to make himself look not as
18:46
Speaker 2: bad as he really is. He's the devil straight from
18:49
Speaker 2: Help Doctor Joni. When you are assessing, as you do
18:56
Speaker 2: statements witnesses, defense tenance victims, to me, it enhances this
19:05
Speaker 2: witness's credibility that she puts it out there. She's not
19:08
Speaker 2: holding back, she's not lying. I was a swinger. I
19:13
Speaker 2: went to this club, I went to this swinger's party
19:15
Speaker 2: in mass Speaker, I slept with Rex Hereman, and I
19:20
Speaker 2: left Kiaren for god of there.
19:21
Speaker 3: What do you make of it?
19:22
Speaker 10: Absolutely?
19:23
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
19:24
Speaker 12: I mean, when you were doing any kind of friends
19:26
Speaker 12: her legal investigation or assessment, you are evaluating the credibility
19:30
Speaker 12: of the witness, and that includes looking at things like
19:33
Speaker 12: what do they have to gain? What do they have
19:35
Speaker 12: to lose? Is the evidence consistent with what they're telling me?
19:38
Speaker 12: Are they willing to say things that might not put
19:40
Speaker 12: them in a favorable light? And all the things that
19:43
Speaker 12: you're talking about certainly indicate that this witness is willing
19:46
Speaker 12: to put herself in a light that other people might
19:49
Speaker 12: question or criticize. And so those are things that definitely
19:52
Speaker 12: add to her credibility.
19:54
Speaker 2: Guys, the bodies are piling up, They're all pointing towards
19:57
Speaker 2: Rex's hummen. And now witnesses emerge, and I'll deal with
20:02
Speaker 2: the new discovery of another dead body there at Sunken
20:06
Speaker 2: Meadow State Park, just minutes from human's home in just
20:09
Speaker 2: a moment.
20:09
Speaker 3: I'm gonna circle back to that.
20:11
Speaker 2: But these four witnesses, I can't tell you how important
20:14
Speaker 2: this is to the Long Island serial killer case.
20:18
Speaker 3: DNA.
20:19
Speaker 2: While its validity is hard to attack, its placement can
20:23
Speaker 2: sometimes be very easy attacked.
20:25
Speaker 3: Do I have to say, O J. Simpson? Uh, oh, Jackie?
20:28
Speaker 3: Is her head just spun around? I have to say,
20:31
Speaker 3: O J. Simpson? And this is why his.
20:35
Speaker 2: Bloody sucks with the victim's blood on them, were in
20:39
Speaker 2: his home after his wife and Ron Goleman were found murdered.
20:48
Speaker 2: But it was artfully argued at trial that the DNA
20:53
Speaker 2: had been planted and placed.
20:55
Speaker 3: Do I believe that? No, I don't believe that was it?
20:58
Speaker 2: Successfully argued, Yes, it was the placement of the DNA.
21:02
Speaker 3: Why was it there?
21:03
Speaker 2: And it.
21:03
Speaker 3: Dury believed it.
21:05
Speaker 2: So while you can't really argue with the validity of DNA,
21:08
Speaker 2: you can't argue with was it contaminated, Was there a
21:12
Speaker 2: mistake at the crime scene, at the crime scene or
21:14
Speaker 2: the crime lab?
21:15
Speaker 3: Was it planned?
21:16
Speaker 2: Just so many ways you can attack its placement. These
21:21
Speaker 2: eyewitnesses make all the difference in this case. We only
21:26
Speaker 2: know about a few of the victims. How many more
21:31
Speaker 2: women have been murdered by Rex human And now let's
21:35
Speaker 2: get to it without any further pontificating on my part.
21:38
Speaker 2: Take a listen again to our friend John Ray, witness
21:43
Speaker 2: number two.
21:45
Speaker 3: Take a listen to our cut to eighteen.
21:48
Speaker 5: The second witness who's come forward. This woman, she's not
21:54
Speaker 5: involved in any sexual activities whatsoever. She has nothing to
21:58
Speaker 5: gain by coming forward. She's not looking for a book
22:02
Speaker 5: or money or the usual things that you're hearing about
22:05
Speaker 5: out there, none of that.
22:07
Speaker 6: But she came.
22:08
Speaker 5: Forward because she's very disturbed about what she knows after
22:11
Speaker 5: she also saw Rex Roomen on television and Shannon Gilbert,
22:18
Speaker 5: And here's her story. She is a banker by day
22:25
Speaker 5: and at night she worked extra in Suffolk County as
22:29
Speaker 5: a taxi driver to take care of her.
22:31
Speaker 6: Family with a one parent family.
22:33
Speaker 5: And as a taxi driver, she is called from her
22:38
Speaker 5: dispatcher to go to the Sayville Motor Lodge on Sunrise
22:42
Speaker 5: Highway and there's a girl awaiting her who's locked in
22:47
Speaker 5: a bathroom and will come out if she flashes her
22:50
Speaker 5: lights and beeps the horn. And she goes there and
22:54
Speaker 5: does that several times. It doesn't work, but then suddenly
22:58
Speaker 5: a giant man who fits the description of Rex Huerman
23:02
Speaker 5: comes out and he's covering his face with his arms.
23:07
Speaker 6: So he can't be seen. And he runs to a
23:09
Speaker 6: van or an suv right nearby that's parked right there.
23:14
Speaker 2: Okay, so.
23:17
Speaker 3: Bank day taxi driver.
23:19
Speaker 2: At night, she goes to a pickup it's at the
23:24
Speaker 2: Sable Motor Lawn on Sunrise Highway, and this is what happens.
23:29
Speaker 5: She continues to flash her lights and beeper horn and
23:32
Speaker 5: out comes a girl crying, shaking, very upset and gets
23:36
Speaker 5: in her car. There they talk for a while and
23:38
Speaker 5: then eventually they drive to the Ronkunama railroad station so
23:42
Speaker 5: that this girl can go back in to New York City.
23:45
Speaker 5: This girl was a sex worker who was servicing the
23:48
Speaker 5: Big Man. This girl turns out to be Seannon Gilbert. Now,
23:52
Speaker 5: Shannon is lured into doing this particular tryst, and she's
23:56
Speaker 5: given an envelope or shown an envelope by the man
24:00
Speaker 5: that looked like it was stuff full of money, and
24:01
Speaker 5: he tells her there's one thousand dollars in there. It's
24:04
Speaker 5: for you and your family, no matter what happens tonight.
24:07
Speaker 5: She looks in the envelope when he goes to the
24:09
Speaker 5: bathroom and it's stuffed with paper, and so she panics
24:12
Speaker 5: and realizes something's wrong. So she goes in the bathroom
24:16
Speaker 5: and he had become very aggressive, very angry. She goes
24:19
Speaker 5: in the bathroom, locks the door, and calls to get
24:21
Speaker 5: a cab, and that's how she comes out. They speak
24:24
Speaker 5: for over an hour, so the driver knows her well
24:28
Speaker 5: and notices that she has a drooping eye, which is
24:31
Speaker 5: characteristic of Shannon and also a characteristic of her family.
24:36
Speaker 6: By the way, going back for a generation or two.
24:40
Speaker 2: To John Ray, the chosen lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family,
24:46
Speaker 2: and we're talking about Shannon Gilbert.
24:50
Speaker 3: Remember all along.
24:52
Speaker 2: She was the first body that was found, but authorities
24:55
Speaker 2: kept saying, yes, she's not connected, she's not connected. Well,
25:00
Speaker 2: apparently she is connected because this cab driver distinctly remembers
25:06
Speaker 2: peaking Shannon up from being with rex human right down
25:13
Speaker 2: to the drooping eye to doctor Kendall Crown's is joining me.
25:16
Speaker 2: Chief Medical Examiner Terran County Fort Worth. Never lack of
25:20
Speaker 2: business there, Dtor Crown's lecturer, University of Texas Austin and
25:25
Speaker 2: TCU Texas Christian University Medical School. Patosis refers to a
25:31
Speaker 2: drooping eyelid. It means the upper eyelid falls to a
25:34
Speaker 2: position lower than the other. Is that genetic Doctor Kendall crowns.
25:40
Speaker 11: It can have a genetic component to it. It can
25:43
Speaker 11: also be associated with trauma and medical conditions in which
25:48
Speaker 11: the neuro neurological system is compromised, like in stroke too.
25:53
Speaker 2: John Ray, high profile lawyer for the family of Shannon
25:57
Speaker 2: Gilbert your set, saying that Shannon's family in the past
26:03
Speaker 2: also had the drooping eyelid.
26:05
Speaker 6: Yes.
26:06
Speaker 10: I checked with the sister Shari and she mentioned that.
26:11
Speaker 10: So it was very consistent with the taxi drivers description.
26:16
Speaker 10: And there's no likelihood that the taxicab driver saw that
26:22
Speaker 10: drooping lid from a picture you know, recent pictures, say,
26:26
Speaker 10: posted on television. But it's possible I suppose, but we
26:31
Speaker 10: also I also vetted this woman, and Rodney Harrison, the
26:36
Speaker 10: police Commissioner of Suffolk County himself, sat with me for
26:40
Speaker 10: almost two hours vetting this woman's credibility as well. We
26:44
Speaker 10: did it together after I had already done it myself.
26:47
Speaker 10: So she's eminently qualified as a witness and a credible one.
26:52
Speaker 10: And her description fits Shatt into a tea, even to
26:56
Speaker 10: the pullback care for the you know, sex workers, you
27:00
Speaker 10: often wear wigs, and Shaddon was very much a user
27:05
Speaker 10: of wigs. So here she is coming out with her
27:08
Speaker 10: hair pulled back exactly as it would have been had
27:10
Speaker 10: she had a wig. So, you know, everything about that
27:15
Speaker 10: this woman said was credible.
27:17
Speaker 2: John Ray, I've been carefully going over literally dozens of
27:23
Speaker 2: photos of Shannon Gilbert, and what I noticed is that
27:28
Speaker 2: very often she wears her hair in bangs that almost
27:31
Speaker 2: cover one eye. And when I first saw that, I
27:35
Speaker 2: thought it was just the style. Now I realize she
27:38
Speaker 2: may have been covering up or trying to cover up,
27:41
Speaker 2: the drooping eyelid, because you know, people often try to
27:46
Speaker 2: do their best to cover up what they perceive to
27:49
Speaker 2: be an imperfection.
27:51
Speaker 3: Also, I've seen her in many different.
27:54
Speaker 2: And very very different hairstyles, and it's got to be wigs,
27:59
Speaker 2: I mean, and some of them she has like her
28:02
Speaker 2: hair is her head is full of.
28:04
Speaker 3: Ringlets, and others. It is completely different.
28:08
Speaker 2: I mean, clearly she's wearing wigs, like you say, and
28:12
Speaker 2: that after prosecuting a lot of cases involving sex workers,
28:16
Speaker 2: I wasn't prosecuting them.
28:17
Speaker 3: They were typically witnesses in cases. For me.
28:19
Speaker 2: Anyway, wigs are part of the costume and they're utilized
28:25
Speaker 2: on a daily basis. So now we finally get the
28:30
Speaker 2: human connection to Shannon Gilbert, I mean John ray all
28:36
Speaker 2: along when authorities are saying there's no connection. She just
28:39
Speaker 2: happens to be dead along beside Rex Huerman's other victims.
28:45
Speaker 2: Did you ever buy that it was.
28:47
Speaker 10: The theory that the police espoused from the beginning was
28:51
Speaker 10: reduced to absurdity and it still is. There isn't this
28:55
Speaker 10: sintilla of evidence that Shannon died other than by murder.
28:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, that she got upset with a different John and
29:03
Speaker 2: wandered out into the marsh and died. That died of
29:09
Speaker 2: what There was never any none of that ever made sense.
29:13
Speaker 2: And remember they couldn't find her body when they were
29:15
Speaker 2: looking for her out in the marsh. Was she just disappeared?
29:20
Speaker 2: None of that made any sense. So that's two of
29:24
Speaker 2: the four witnesses at doctor Kendall Crown's question to you,
29:28
Speaker 2: you've dealt with literally thousands of autopsies when you're dealing
29:33
Speaker 2: with a serial killer. Here we see not only the
29:37
Speaker 2: same modus operandi, method of operation of disposing of the bodies,
29:40
Speaker 2: but we see the same type of manner of death.
29:46
Speaker 2: Cause of death Is that significant when you're trying to
29:51
Speaker 2: identify the perp.
29:53
Speaker 3: The manner of.
29:54
Speaker 11: Death, so the manner of death can be is homicide, accident,
29:59
Speaker 11: natural suicide? It caused the death is probably what you're
30:03
Speaker 11: more referring to. Yes, Usually with causes of death. With
30:08
Speaker 11: serial killers, they do like to follow the same pattern.
30:12
Speaker 11: They kind of have a routine, so you will see
30:15
Speaker 11: similar methods of killing an individual, similar methods of binding.
30:20
Speaker 11: As far as identifying of them, you can cluster the
30:25
Speaker 11: cases together, possibly get DNA from them, but you can't
30:30
Speaker 11: get people to copy do copycat killings as well, so
30:34
Speaker 11: it doesn't necessarily identify them based on how they do it.
30:38
Speaker 3: Who is the next witness? Take us an hour to
30:41
Speaker 3: two eight.
30:42
Speaker 5: The fourth witness comes from another state. She was a
30:46
Speaker 5: sex worker for many years. She said that she would
30:49
Speaker 5: service Rex Uomen over twenty times and that he would
30:53
Speaker 5: He was a serial user of sex workers. He would
30:57
Speaker 5: sometimes have him come two at a time house and
31:01
Speaker 5: his wife was home upstairs, and in one instance got
31:05
Speaker 5: very angry at one of the sex workers because the
31:08
Speaker 5: wife believed that the worker had stolen an iron from
31:11
Speaker 5: you know, for ironing clothes, and had had it in
31:15
Speaker 5: the car with the driver. So the driver had to
31:17
Speaker 5: get out, everybody had to search the car. There was
31:19
Speaker 5: no iron, but the wife knew about it and knew
31:22
Speaker 5: about obviously what was going on in order for that
31:25
Speaker 5: to happen.
31:25
Speaker 3: Wow and last, take a listener for Instant Crime online.
31:28
Speaker 13: The wife of Rex Hueerman has not been accused of
31:31
Speaker 13: any wrongdoing by police. They've even gone so far as
31:33
Speaker 13: to say they believe she was out of town when
31:36
Speaker 13: the murders of the Gilgil four were committed. However, in
31:40
Speaker 13: an interview with the US Sun, attorney John Ray points
31:43
Speaker 13: out he doesn't see how it's possible to ignore or
31:46
Speaker 13: refuse to investigate Asa Elerap in light of the purported
31:49
Speaker 13: evidence he has uncovered interesting to point out hair's belonging
31:53
Speaker 13: to Ellirap were found on at least three of the
31:56
Speaker 13: women helping lead detectives. Back to Human.
32:13
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
32:19
Speaker 2: To Mary Murphy joining us investigative reporter who's been on
32:22
Speaker 2: the case from the get go pix eleven. Mary, thank
32:26
Speaker 2: you for being with us again. Got two questions for you,
32:29
Speaker 2: and the first one is about asa Ella Up, the
32:33
Speaker 2: wife of Rix Hureman.
32:35
Speaker 3: She has not been charged, she's.
32:37
Speaker 2: Not been named a person of interest, but many people
32:41
Speaker 2: have wondered how she could not know what was happening.
32:45
Speaker 2: That was explained away by the fact that many of
32:51
Speaker 2: Humerman's meetings with sex workers when she was out of town.
32:56
Speaker 2: This paints her in an entirely different light.
33:00
Speaker 7: We don't know what kind of relationship miss elerapad with
33:03
Speaker 7: her husband, and we don't know the level of their intimacy.
33:06
Speaker 7: I can just tell you that when this indictment was
33:09
Speaker 7: announced back in July, the District Attorney rate Tyranny, took
33:14
Speaker 7: great pains to say he did not believe that the
33:17
Speaker 7: wife had any knowledge of what was going on, and
33:20
Speaker 7: even the police Commissioner, Rodney Harrison, said he believed that
33:24
Speaker 7: Rex Huerman was living a double life. I believe anything's possible.
33:29
Speaker 7: Perhaps there were sex workers that went to the house,
33:32
Speaker 7: but from what I'm gathering from the top law enforcement
33:35
Speaker 7: people on the case, they did not think she had
33:38
Speaker 7: any involvement. I just wanted to mention a couple of things.
33:42
Speaker 7: Rodney Harrison, the former police commissioner who just resigned last week.
33:46
Speaker 7: He was there for the vetting of the second witness
33:49
Speaker 7: that John Ray has met with, and while he said
33:53
Speaker 7: that he wanted to look at all of these witnesses,
33:56
Speaker 7: he didn't want to leave any stone unturned. Be noted
34:00
Speaker 7: that he was very cautious. At John Ray's press conference,
34:04
Speaker 7: he didn't give up much information. He just said they
34:06
Speaker 7: would look at this information. And it was significant, though
34:11
Speaker 7: that he was there with John Ray. I had never
34:13
Speaker 7: seen anything like that in my career. He actually left
34:17
Speaker 7: police headquarters to join John Ray at his private attorney's office.
34:22
Speaker 2: Well, I would not expect law enforcement to comment on
34:24
Speaker 2: potential witnesses at this juncture, but you're right. The fact
34:28
Speaker 2: that he's there with Ray when Ray is making the
34:31
Speaker 2: statements about four new witnesses speaks volumes. He doesn't have
34:34
Speaker 2: to say anything for me to see that he's standing there.
34:38
Speaker 3: In solidarity with Ray.
34:41
Speaker 2: Also, we learned about another creepy I'm not through yet
34:46
Speaker 2: on these four witnesses, but another creepy fact has emerged.
34:51
Speaker 2: Take a listen hour cut two for two from investigative
34:54
Speaker 2: reporter Dave Mack.
34:55
Speaker 13: Rex Huerman was so obsessed about showing off his hunting
34:58
Speaker 13: skills to a female colleague that he stalked her onto
35:01
Speaker 13: a cruise ship. Miral Henriquez tells CBS forty eight Hours
35:05
Speaker 13: that Huerman asked her where she was going to be
35:07
Speaker 13: on her fortieth birthday cruise. She told him, I'm going
35:10
Speaker 13: to be in the middle of the ocean, and You're
35:12
Speaker 13: not going to be able to find me in the
35:13
Speaker 13: middle of the ocean. Hureerman told her, oh yes I can.
35:17
Speaker 13: On the second day of her birthday cruise, a white
35:20
Speaker 13: envelope was shoved under her cabin door. It was a
35:23
Speaker 13: note from Huerman. The note said, I told you I
35:26
Speaker 13: could find you anywhere.
35:27
Speaker 2: Okay, that's completely irrelevant to the trial on multiple murders,
35:34
Speaker 2: but wow, I wish a juri could hear that because
35:38
Speaker 2: it tells me volumes about rex Hueman himself.
35:42
Speaker 3: Mary Murphy, what is the significance of the Sable.
35:46
Speaker 2: Motor Lodge, where, according to one of these new witnesses,
35:50
Speaker 2: she made a pickup connected to Hureerman.
35:52
Speaker 7: The first thing that I thought of when I heard
35:54
Speaker 7: save Ill Motor Lodge was the fact that just recently
35:57
Speaker 7: the Fedge locked it down, shut down for good, because
36:01
Speaker 7: it was the scene of major sex trafficking over the years.
36:05
Speaker 13: And so when the.
36:07
Speaker 7: Allegation was made that Shannon Gilbert was there and that
36:11
Speaker 7: she had allegedly met Rex Herem in there, I thought
36:15
Speaker 7: of all the human trafficking that was going on. Also,
36:17
Speaker 7: the date John Ray in this affidavit, which was a
36:21
Speaker 7: sworn affidavit, noted that it was around two thousand and
36:25
Speaker 7: nine in the fall. It would probably be September October
36:28
Speaker 7: two thousand and nine when this incident happened, and that
36:31
Speaker 7: was around the time earlier that summer that Melissa Barthelmy
36:35
Speaker 7: had disappeared. But she disappeared from the Bronx. She's one
36:40
Speaker 7: of the original Gilgo four found on Ocean Parkway in
36:43
Speaker 7: twenty ten, so it becomes an interesting part of the timeline.
36:48
Speaker 7: Melissa Barthelemy disappears in the summer of two thousand and nine,
36:52
Speaker 7: and then in September October two thousand and nine, this
36:55
Speaker 7: taxi driver allegedly saw a woman she identifies as Shannon
36:59
Speaker 7: Gilbert with Rex here Men at the Stable Motor.
37:02
Speaker 2: Lodge to John Ray, lawyer for the Shannon Gilbert family.
37:07
Speaker 3: In my mind, this is icing on the cake for
37:09
Speaker 3: the state.
37:10
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, I suppose you could say so, but I
37:13
Speaker 10: just you know, you said that the with miss Enriquez,
37:18
Speaker 10: the Huriman's secretary, that the issue on the Ocean Cruise
37:23
Speaker 10: liner was irrelevant.
37:24
Speaker 6: It's not.
37:25
Speaker 10: Actually, Rex Heuerman. One of the items sees from him
37:29
Speaker 10: in the police inventory was survivalist equipment. Doctor Peter Hackett,
37:34
Speaker 10: who we have pinned as one of the people responsible
37:37
Speaker 10: for Shannon's death, ran a company called Survivalist Dynamic, and
37:43
Speaker 10: he ran it with a man who was a sea
37:44
Speaker 10: captain for cruise ships. And the chances that that Packett
37:51
Speaker 10: and Huerman knew each other through the survivalist operation in
37:55
Speaker 10: Long Island are very strong. It's a very small group
37:58
Speaker 10: of people. They tend to connect with each other, meet
38:00
Speaker 10: with each other, et cetera. And it wouldn't surprise me
38:03
Speaker 10: if there was a connection.
38:04
Speaker 2: There may very well be a connection in everything regarding
38:07
Speaker 2: tracking her down on a cruise ship. Maybe true, But
38:10
Speaker 2: after all your years of trying cases, do you believe
38:12
Speaker 2: that evidence will come in a murder trial? Not yet, okay,
38:16
Speaker 2: And that is why it would be deemed irrelevant in trial.
38:19
Speaker 2: Not irrelevant to who Rex Human is. That's why I
38:24
Speaker 2: played it because it tells me who he is, but
38:27
Speaker 2: it's not coming into trial because has nothing to do
38:29
Speaker 2: with the victim. The Gilgo Beach victims tells me a
38:32
Speaker 2: lot about him, but a jury's never going to hear that.
38:35
Speaker 3: And I wish that they could doctor Jonnie Johnston joining
38:38
Speaker 3: me out of California. What do you make of what
38:40
Speaker 3: you've heard?
38:41
Speaker 12: Well, I think there's so many interesting parts of this,
38:43
Speaker 12: and I'd have to agree with you, Nancy that the
38:45
Speaker 12: whole issue of Rex Human tracking down one of his
38:48
Speaker 12: employees just to show her that he has the power
38:51
Speaker 12: to know where she is at all times, speaks of
38:54
Speaker 12: volumes about his psychology. And you know, one of the
38:58
Speaker 12: themes that has come up over and over past and
39:00
Speaker 12: people talking about reg Fureman and looking at some of
39:02
Speaker 12: the pornography he allegedly was looking at, is this issue
39:06
Speaker 12: of satism and getting pleasure out of causing other people
39:09
Speaker 12: discomfort our pain, and that is very consistent with that.
39:12
Speaker 2: Robin Drake, behavioral expert, former FBI special agent, What do
39:16
Speaker 2: you think?
39:17
Speaker 8: Yeah, I can agree more. He keeps displaying a very
39:19
Speaker 8: consistent art of behavior of control, power sadism, and he
39:25
Speaker 8: targets and grooms fitting all the profiles as someone that
39:29
Speaker 8: would do this. All these witnesses.
39:31
Speaker 9: Coming forward though, really it's helping the prosecution. I believe,
39:34
Speaker 9: like it's been stated at the same time, though I
39:36
Speaker 9: keep coming back to we're seeing some law enforcement mishandling
39:40
Speaker 9: here as well. It really paints an interesting picture on
39:43
Speaker 9: what's been transpiring there.
39:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is going to play into the defense
39:47
Speaker 2: because of the fact that there has been police misconduct
39:51
Speaker 2: in the distant past, but it was during these investigations.
39:54
Speaker 2: That's all they need to argue. This DNA is irrelevant,
39:59
Speaker 2: is plan is tainted. They're going to use that. And
40:03
Speaker 2: that's why these eyewitnesses that John Ray high profile lawyers
40:07
Speaker 2: telling us about, become all the more significant because they
40:11
Speaker 2: corroborate the DNA. Mary Murphy joining us Pixy eleven number one,
40:18
Speaker 2: the new body that has been found at Sunken Meadows
40:21
Speaker 2: is that of a young male, and it's believed it
40:27
Speaker 2: was a recent murder.
40:30
Speaker 3: Hereman's in jail.
40:31
Speaker 2: He didn't do it, but you know, I think it's significant,
40:34
Speaker 2: Mary Murphy, because the defense can now argue, you see
40:38
Speaker 2: the killer still out.
40:39
Speaker 3: There, it's not Heureerman. Can't you just see that unfolding
40:43
Speaker 3: in court?
40:44
Speaker 7: Mary Well, The first thing that I thought of when
40:45
Speaker 7: I heard about the body in Sunken Meadow State Park
40:48
Speaker 7: was wow, could this be another victim? And you know,
40:53
Speaker 7: I asked the police commissioner about that before he left office.
40:56
Speaker 7: He told me he did not think so. When I
40:59
Speaker 7: heard the name, and when I heard the circumstances, I
41:02
Speaker 7: had to also think about the fact that there's a
41:04
Speaker 7: lot of gang activity and gang murders out in that
41:08
Speaker 7: area of Long Island in Suffolk County, involving MS thirteen.
41:12
Speaker 3: We do not know the.
41:13
Speaker 7: Exact circumstances of the murder yet, but I was told
41:17
Speaker 7: that it was not connected to gilgo.
41:19
Speaker 2: Hey, Long Island serial killer. Prosecutors, listen, you better solve
41:25
Speaker 2: that case so the defense cannot use it at trial.
41:29
Speaker 3: We wait as
41:31
Speaker 2: Justice un false here Reman back in court November fifteen,
41:34
Speaker 2: Goodbye to