Latest / The Podcast of Jewish Ideas / 87. Sefer Yosippon | Dr. Carson Bay

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87. Sefer Yosippon | Dr. Carson Bay · The Podcast of Jewish Ideas

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Speaker 1: Greetings, friends, and welcome back to the podcast of Jewish Ideas,
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Speaker 1: a Torah in motion production.
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Speaker 2: I'm jj Kimbri.
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Speaker 1: On today's episode, we will be exploring Cephei Yossi Pon,
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Speaker 1: sometimes pronounced Yossi pun, a remarkable medieval Hebrew chronicle that
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Speaker 1: recasts Jewish history from the Biblical period through.
0:35
Speaker 2: The destruction of the Second Temple.
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Speaker 1: Written around the tenth century in southern Italy, this text
0:40
Speaker 1: was long one of the most circulated works of Jewish
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Speaker 1: historiography and served for many centuries as the standard narrative
0:46
Speaker 1: of ancient Israelite history from Jewish communities across the Mediterranean
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Speaker 1: and Europe. Although it was traditionally attributed to Josephus, Yossipon
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Speaker 1: is not a direct translation, but rather a dynamic, richly
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Speaker 1: crafted adaptation that draws upon many sources and reshaped history
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Speaker 1: according to its own world view. To guide us through
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Speaker 1: this fascinating material, we are the lighted to be joined
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Speaker 1: by my colleague, doctor Carson Bay, Associate Professor of Classics
1:08
Speaker 1: and Biblical Studies at the University of Austin, Texas, a
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Speaker 1: specialist in Greco Roman and Judaea Christian antiquity, as well
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Speaker 1: as on the reception of Josepha's. Professor Bay's writings on
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Speaker 1: the topic included twenty twenty three book Biblical Heroes and
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Speaker 1: Classical Culture in Christian Made Antiquity, published by Cambridge University Press.
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Speaker 1: It is a pleasure to welcome Professor Bay to the
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Speaker 1: podcast today.
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Speaker 3: Professor welcome, Thank you, it's good to be here. Thanks
1:30
Speaker 3: for having me on JJ. Thanks Lisha for running this thing.
1:34
Speaker 3: And it's yeah, it's a pleasure to talk about this
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Speaker 3: with someone as ever.
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Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. I'm very excited. This is really a fascinating corner.
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Speaker 1: And what's interesting about this corner of Jewish ideas and
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Speaker 1: Jewish text is.
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Speaker 2: How few people know anything about it.
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Speaker 1: It really for many people has slipped under the radar,
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Speaker 1: especially you have a more traditional Jewish education.
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Speaker 2: So we're gonna have to start, I'm afraid at the
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Speaker 2: very beginning.
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Speaker 1: So for listeners who have never or scarcely heard of it,
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Speaker 1: what exactly is Cefa yosipond You know, if you have
1:59
Speaker 1: to describe it to an ail like what's in it is?
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Speaker 2: What is it? What is it purport to be?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So Cefri Josapan or the Book of Joseph Ben
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Speaker 3: Gurion is a is a chronicle that the narrative starts
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Speaker 3: with the table of nations that we find in uh,
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Speaker 3: you know, Genesis, Genesis five and first Chronicles one, and
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Speaker 3: so it starts at this table of nations, the sons
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Speaker 3: of Noah, the sons of Jfith, and it sort of
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Speaker 3: lays out the world, and then it goes very quickly
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Speaker 3: through a conflation of ancient Israelite in ancient Roman history,
2:33
Speaker 3: does a few chapters on kind of Judeo Persian history,
2:36
Speaker 3: and then it spends most of its narrative on the
2:41
Speaker 3: Maccabean revolt hasmini in history through the destruction of the
2:45
Speaker 3: Jerusalem Temple and seventy by Vespasian and Titus, and then
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Speaker 3: the aftermath at Masada in seventy four, where there's this
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Speaker 3: famous mass death of these last Judaean Judaean rebels again,
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Speaker 3: and so the narrative spends most of its time in
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Speaker 3: the latter portion. It's but basically it's a Second Temple
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Speaker 3: Jewish history. It appears to have been written close to
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Speaker 3: the year nine hundred, so early tenth century in southern Italy,
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Speaker 3: and it's written in Hebrew, and so all of those
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Speaker 3: things in early tenth century date, the Hebrew language, the
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Speaker 3: scope of the narrative itself are as you well know,
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Speaker 3: they're striking in Jewish literary history. And so that's what
3:31
Speaker 3: this work is, as we're going to talk about, it's
3:33
Speaker 3: based upon the Josephin tradition, and so it's a Jewish
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Speaker 3: telling of kind of Second Temple history through to the
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Speaker 3: very end. For an early medieval Jewish audience, it would
3:45
Speaker 3: seem excellent.
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Speaker 1: So, as Rea, before we get into the sort of
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Speaker 1: the crop stitching together the book in terms of genre,
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Speaker 1: where would you place this, especially with regards to other
3:56
Speaker 1: more familiar genres of Jewish history. I mean, we're talking
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Speaker 1: about a straight histor book about something closer to Midrash?
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Speaker 1: Are we talking about something closer to the Musa? I
4:06
Speaker 1: think all tales? Like how, where exactly would you place
4:09
Speaker 1: this on this kind of constellation of genres that we're
4:12
Speaker 1: familiar with in Jewish jew texts.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's really interesting question. I mean genre genre
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Speaker 3: is a sticky issue. I guess using his storiography as
4:24
Speaker 3: a sort of catch all to begin with is very
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Speaker 3: helpful for several reasons. One is that the text clearly
4:30
Speaker 3: presents itself as doing history in a way distinct from
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Speaker 3: anything else I'm aware of in Jewish literature before the
4:39
Speaker 3: you know, the High Middle Ages or even thereafter. So
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Speaker 3: it's just one example of this. The text inserts into
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Speaker 3: its narrative of Judah the Maccabee after he kind of
4:51
Speaker 3: takes up takes up arms and takes on the Hasminian
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Speaker 3: cause we have a number of documents letters written from
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Speaker 3: Romans and Greeks to Judah and two each other that
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Speaker 3: sort of document this history in a way that's it's
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Speaker 3: anticipated in the Maccabean literature and first and second Maccabeees,
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Speaker 3: but Yosupon takes it kind of to a new level,
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Speaker 3: and so it's doing history in this classical mode. That's
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Speaker 3: that's what's so interesting about it. Like if we trace
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Speaker 3: the genealogy of genre, as it were, from yos Upon
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Speaker 3: all the way back, what you would do is you
5:24
Speaker 3: would go through historiography as it was sort of you know,
5:28
Speaker 3: pounded out by Christians in late antiquity, you Cbius being
5:32
Speaker 3: a key figure there, but you would go all the
5:33
Speaker 3: way back to thucidities, Herootus and Xenophon. So the type
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Speaker 3: of narrative, the content of the narrative and the types
5:40
Speaker 3: of things that are that are inserted into it by
5:43
Speaker 3: the author. They have their sort of traditionary beginnings, as
5:47
Speaker 3: it were in classical historiography. So, for example, these expansive
5:52
Speaker 3: speeches given to heroic characters at key moments in the
5:55
Speaker 3: narrative as a way to sort of frame the history
5:58
Speaker 3: as a way to maybe kind of the author's ethical
6:02
Speaker 3: or philosophical or theological religious takes on things. These appear
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Speaker 3: throughout the narrative and they it's it's like you're reading
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Speaker 3: something like Josephus, who in the first century was himself
6:17
Speaker 3: writing a history that sort of fused the what we
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Speaker 3: could call the sort of Jewish and Greco Roman historiographical traditions.
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Speaker 3: That having been said, there is material in it that
6:31
Speaker 3: sounds what sounds like what some would call folkloristic or
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Speaker 3: even mythical. So you mentioned Midrash. Stephen Bowman has wrote
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Speaker 3: an essay in nineteen ninety three, I think it was
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Speaker 3: called Sepher jos Upon, History and Midrash, and so he
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Speaker 3: talks about the fact that jos Upon does all this
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Speaker 3: whole historiographical work while at the same time exercising these
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Speaker 3: kinds of word plays and literary sort of literary styles
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Speaker 3: that are that are that are resonant of what we
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Speaker 3: call midrash, that are sort of like creatively interpretive, and
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Speaker 3: you know mid rash sick interesting.
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Speaker 1: Fair enough, Okay, so then this is a this is
7:15
Speaker 1: an odd book. Let's just put it out there. There's
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Speaker 1: a strange book in the.
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Speaker 3: Sense that it's strange.
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Speaker 1: Appears in the tenth century, but it is building off, reworking,
7:25
Speaker 1: stitching together. I don't know exactly what the correct words are.
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Speaker 1: Lots of sources from antiquity. Can you just sort of
7:29
Speaker 1: take us through the list of sources, Like what is
7:31
Speaker 1: sitting on mister Yosupon's bookshelf in southern Italy in the
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Speaker 1: tenth century, What is he reading?
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Speaker 2: What are what are the various stages that.
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Speaker 1: He's going through from antiquity to his day that he's
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Speaker 1: sort of taking and putting in, Like what are the
7:43
Speaker 1: constituents components that get woven together in order to produce
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Speaker 1: this particular book of history.
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Speaker 3: Yes, this is a great question, It's a key question.
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Speaker 3: I guess I'll begin by saying that on the on
7:53
Speaker 3: the author's conceptual bookshelf is the Hebrew Bible. So both
7:57
Speaker 3: the language and the content of the Jewish Scripture are
8:02
Speaker 3: as far as I can tell, they represent what might
8:04
Speaker 3: be called sort of like the author's thought language, and
8:06
Speaker 3: he uses that literature to guide his own grammar, syntax, vocabulary, etc.
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Speaker 3: But he also uses it, for example, to write his
8:15
Speaker 3: Table of Nations with which he begins his narrative. That
8:18
Speaker 3: having been said, he updates it, and so he uses
8:21
Speaker 3: early medieval categories when he's doing that, which is why
8:25
Speaker 3: we're able to date the text to when we are.
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Speaker 3: But so beyond that, chapter two. Chapter two is very unusual.
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Speaker 3: Chapter two. It reflects the use of traditions that trace
8:35
Speaker 3: back to Virgils in Need and to Livy's history, but
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Speaker 3: it does not appear to sort of cite these per se. So,
8:43
Speaker 3: for example, you have this version of the Rape of
8:45
Speaker 3: the Sabines, which appears early in Livy, and it has
8:48
Speaker 3: to do with sort of like how Rome became Rome,
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Speaker 3: how the early Romans found wives when they didn't have
8:54
Speaker 3: any women, and they went and took them for someone else.
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Speaker 3: So josupon there seems to be using a no longer extant,
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Speaker 3: so far as we know, early medieval rewriting of these
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Speaker 3: classical these classical histories. So this is what so David Flusser,
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Speaker 3: who created the critical edition of cefrios Upon in nineteen
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Speaker 3: seventy eight to nineteen eighty, he sort of says this,
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Speaker 3: I think he's right. So in the early medieval period,
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Speaker 3: we have, you know, you have a lot of ancient
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Speaker 3: sources that get that get reworked in ways that are
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Speaker 3: that are kind of novelistic and that are not that
9:30
Speaker 3: don't have the sort of like gravitas of the ancient sources,
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Speaker 3: but that retell a lot of the same stories. Jos
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Speaker 3: Upon seems to reflect those. But basically chapter two it
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Speaker 3: reflects knowledge of let's say, the Livian tradition, the Virgilian tradition.
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Speaker 3: It combines these with biblical history. So you have Romulus,
9:46
Speaker 3: the famous, you know, eponymous figurehead of Rome, being put
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Speaker 3: in conversation with and as historically co evil with King David.
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Speaker 3: We're told that Romulus was like always really scared of
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Speaker 3: King David, and it caused them to form treaties. And
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Speaker 3: this is indicative of Sephar Josupon's style. So David is
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Speaker 3: this like proto Jewish king, and he's so formidable that
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Speaker 3: the you know, the figurehead of Rome is like, this
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Speaker 3: guy's going to take me out. I need to make
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Speaker 3: peace with him. And so you have this fusion of traditions.
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Speaker 3: You also have Zepho ben Elifaz, the grandson of Esau.
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Speaker 3: He's inserted into the tale. He becomes a sort of
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Speaker 3: like Jewish Heracles figure. He gets in a fight with
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Speaker 3: Joseph about Jacob's bones when he's taking about of Egypt.
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Speaker 3: But he basically becomes and this is very interesting, he
10:32
Speaker 3: becomes edom. So he becomes the sort of the er
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Speaker 3: ancestor of Rome. So chapter two is a fusion of
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Speaker 3: kind of ancient traditions that puts Jewish and Roman history
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Speaker 3: together as this sort of like these things happened together
10:49
Speaker 3: and they were both importantly ancient, noble, powerful people. After that,
10:55
Speaker 3: you've got a few chapters on the biblical Daniel. We
10:58
Speaker 3: should talk about those because there's textual difficulties. You have
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Speaker 3: some Persian history, so you have Drias, you have Cyrus
11:05
Speaker 3: and some things that are going on vis A VI
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Speaker 3: the Jews of the time. You have the Esther and
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Speaker 3: Mordecai Ahasueris Hayman narrative, and then you have Alexander the
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Speaker 3: Great and then things slide into the Hasmani in history.
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Speaker 3: That's also something we should talk about briefly, but then
11:23
Speaker 3: very quickly, so by book thirty you're into the John
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Speaker 3: Hyrcanes and his sons and this whole thing with the
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Speaker 3: Pharisees and the Sadducees and the Ascenes, whom the author
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Speaker 3: calls the Hasidim, and then things slide very quickly into
11:41
Speaker 3: the first century. So like its major source, which is
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Speaker 3: a Latin text, which we'll talk about most of the
11:49
Speaker 3: narrative is about sixty six to seventy CE, so the
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Speaker 3: Roman Jewish war that ends in Jerusalem's destruction, So you
11:59
Speaker 3: get there by book fifty, and there are eighty nine
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Speaker 3: books in the work, so half of the work is
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Speaker 3: about that. But in the first you know, the first
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Speaker 3: fifty books, you go from sort of like the origins
12:12
Speaker 3: of peoples all the way down there. The very interesting
12:17
Speaker 3: thing about Sefrijos upon sources is that the early Biblical material,
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Speaker 3: so Daniel Esther Mordecai, et cetera, this is almost all apocryphal,
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Speaker 3: and it is based upon Latin Christian biblical traditions, so
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Speaker 3: it is based upon the apocryphal additions to the Christian
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Speaker 3: Scriptures as they articulated in Jerome's Vulgate, the Latin text
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Speaker 3: that's the basis for these writings, and then the latter
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Speaker 3: half of the work is based upon Books thirteen to
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Speaker 3: sixteen of Josephus's Jewish Antiquities. It's based upon the Latin
12:55
Speaker 3: version thereof. And the major work which sits beneath yos
13:02
Speaker 3: Upon for basically the last forty chapters of the last
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Speaker 3: forty books, is this late fourth century text called on
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Speaker 3: the Destruction of Jerusalem or de e Scidio Hierusalem Atano,
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Speaker 3: which the author is sometimes called pseudo Hegisippus. It's sometimes
13:18
Speaker 3: attributed to Ambrose of Milan. I'm not sure that he
13:21
Speaker 3: wrote it, there's some evidence there, but this is a
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Speaker 3: five book Latin Christian work that paraphrases Josephus's earlier Greek
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Speaker 3: Jewish War and basically turns it into a Christian history.
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Speaker 3: And so one of the most just absolutely astounding things
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Speaker 3: about sefriijos Upon is that it is a work written
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Speaker 3: in Biblical Hebrew in the early tenth century, so obviously
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Speaker 3: it is written to Jewish readers, but it is based
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Speaker 3: almost completely on Latin Christian historical sources. And not only that,
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Speaker 3: these are the Latin Christian historical sources that did the
13:56
Speaker 3: Lion's share of the work of cementing a super sessionist
14:00
Speaker 3: understanding of history, the history of the destruction of Jerusalem
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Speaker 3: into the sort of late Antique and medieval cultural fabric
14:09
Speaker 3: of Western Europe and beyond. So for Cefrios upon to
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Speaker 3: base itself on those sources is just you know, wild,
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Speaker 3: there's no other word for it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so fussy.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for that total falseyns great sort of chapter
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Speaker 1: by chapter source basis for this.
14:28
Speaker 2: And as you say, he's weaving.
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Speaker 1: Together the Bible Josepha's this fifth four fifth century Latin text,
14:33
Speaker 1: which we don't know. So before we go onto some
14:35
Speaker 1: of the specifics in the book, I do want to
14:38
Speaker 1: ask a little bit about this tenth century author.
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Speaker 2: So, I mean, do we know anything about him?
14:44
Speaker 1: Do we you know you said Southern Italy tenth century?
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Speaker 1: Do we know why he's doing this, as we say,
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Speaker 1: a very very unusual weaving together and and weveing together
14:54
Speaker 1: many many different sources and trying to provide a rich
14:57
Speaker 1: Jewish history. You know, why is he doing this? And
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Speaker 1: what sort of what circumstances it is life can we
15:04
Speaker 1: know about? What can we guess or can we trying
15:06
Speaker 1: to understand that would shed light on this interesting work.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well what we can know is basically nothing. What
15:15
Speaker 3: we can make educated guesses at is a lot. More So,
15:20
Speaker 3: it does seem that the author, the author clearly had
15:25
Speaker 3: a knowledge of Latin. It seems like maybe the author
15:28
Speaker 3: did not have a knowledge of Greek. The author clearly
15:31
Speaker 3: had a working knowledge of Hebrew and probably thought in
15:34
Speaker 3: that language. And so something we know about the author
15:37
Speaker 3: is that this person is interfacing with both Hebrew and
15:40
Speaker 3: Latin literature at a high level, which would probably not
15:44
Speaker 3: have been true of most Jews in Byzantium, and so
15:49
Speaker 3: probably is doing some sort of like subcultural translational work,
15:54
Speaker 3: like bringing important information from a different sort of linguistic
15:59
Speaker 3: and cultural fear into his own. And I think this
16:03
Speaker 3: may also be reflected in the rather simple Hebrew prose
16:08
Speaker 3: of Sefarios upon. So it's not the it's not like
16:11
Speaker 3: an esoteric Hebrew that could only be read by scholars
16:14
Speaker 3: and delites. It's a Hebrew that you could sort of
16:17
Speaker 3: like say out loud and people could people could follow
16:20
Speaker 3: it in terms of the person's life circumstances. This means
16:24
Speaker 3: the person who wrote this needs to have had access
16:28
Speaker 3: not only to language, but to the Latin literature upon
16:31
Speaker 3: which he bases his narrative. So you know, what kind
16:35
Speaker 3: of person is this? This is something that so you know,
16:39
Speaker 3: David Flusser has a nineteen eighty seven essay in this
16:43
Speaker 3: book Josephist Judaism in Christianity edited by Louis Feldman in
16:48
Speaker 3: Gohai Hata, the Japanese scholar, and so here he sort
16:52
Speaker 3: of distills a lot of work he had done earlier
16:54
Speaker 3: in Hebrew and German. He says that the author apparent
16:58
Speaker 3: appears to have local knowledge of Naples and other places
17:02
Speaker 3: in Italy, and that's totally true. So, for example, the
17:04
Speaker 3: author talks about how the residents of Naples they collect
17:08
Speaker 3: this oil that comes from the bottom of the sea
17:10
Speaker 3: and like sits on the top of the sea, and
17:12
Speaker 3: that it sort of like shows up right in the
17:14
Speaker 3: water there. And he has all these you know, topographical
17:17
Speaker 3: and geographical vocabularies that suggest that the author is sort
17:21
Speaker 3: of from there. And so it's interesting about Naples is
17:24
Speaker 3: that the Duke of Naples in the ninth century dedicated
17:29
Speaker 3: a number of Latin Josephus manuscripts to the library there,
17:34
Speaker 3: and the Duke of Naples in the mid tenth century
17:38
Speaker 3: after the wife of his the death of his wife
17:41
Speaker 3: in nine point fifty one, he had a Latin manuscript
17:46
Speaker 3: of Josephus made for the library there, and so flusser
17:52
Speaker 3: A pined that maybe the author of Josepon was a
17:58
Speaker 3: court physician for the Duke of Naples and therefore had
18:01
Speaker 3: access to all this literature, because accessing this type of
18:04
Speaker 3: literature in the tenth century is very different than the
18:07
Speaker 3: ways that we have access to literature today, Like these
18:10
Speaker 3: things would only have existed in libraries where where money
18:16
Speaker 3: and institutional organization were implicated. And so, you know, how
18:20
Speaker 3: are you going to sit down with texts like this,
18:22
Speaker 3: especially if you're you know, if you're a Jewish person,
18:25
Speaker 3: if you're sort of a you know, if you're a
18:27
Speaker 3: cultural minority who also has certain limited legal abilities to
18:33
Speaker 3: sort of like do things and whatnot, And so the
18:36
Speaker 3: author could have been someone like that. So there's language
18:39
Speaker 3: throughout the narrative when people are dying and when like
18:42
Speaker 3: people are getting like these gross diseases. The way that
18:45
Speaker 3: the author describes these things, does seem in a few
18:51
Speaker 3: places to reflect medical knowledge, and so putting all these
18:56
Speaker 3: things together, this is the type of educated educated guests
19:00
Speaker 3: can make about the author. Well, like, okay, maybe the
19:02
Speaker 3: author was somehow a court physician and then had and
19:06
Speaker 3: thus had access to these sort of like arguably hard
19:10
Speaker 3: to access Latin Christian documents that would only appear in libraries.
19:15
Speaker 3: Maybe so maybe so.
19:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, I guess Partly the problem with this
19:19
Speaker 1: is that because it's tenth century, it's so rare. In
19:23
Speaker 1: other words, had this been written I don't know, in
19:25
Speaker 1: the height of the Spanish Jewish Convivencia, when you know,
19:28
Speaker 1: we have so many such intellectuals, or in the eighteenth
19:30
Speaker 1: century Germany where you had you know, court physicians. So
19:33
Speaker 1: so then you could say, ah, you know, this seems
19:35
Speaker 1: like what others were doing, all the kinds of education
19:37
Speaker 1: other Jews had. But to have a book like this,
19:39
Speaker 1: which does rework a wide array of sources I into
19:42
Speaker 1: created a Hebrew in the tenth century, I mean sort of,
19:44
Speaker 1: it's quite difficult.
19:46
Speaker 2: So let us let's dive in a little bit.
19:49
Speaker 1: One of the central points that you've made in the
19:50
Speaker 1: past is that CEO sipon is sort of an act
19:55
Speaker 1: of what Michael historical reclamation. Other words, it's king back
20:00
Speaker 1: Jewish history. Almost probably these other sources I mean again,
20:03
Speaker 1: Josephus published or the version we have published in Greek,
20:07
Speaker 1: foreign non Engwish audience and the fifth century. It's also
20:11
Speaker 1: a text is also published in late text, also published
20:13
Speaker 1: in foreign languages for non Jeish audiences, and sefios Upon
20:17
Speaker 1: seeks to I don't know, domesticate them, reclaim them, judaize
20:20
Speaker 1: them in a certain way. So can you elaborate on this?
20:22
Speaker 1: What does the book do and how does it do
20:25
Speaker 1: it in such a manner that it brings the text
20:28
Speaker 1: and the ideas and the history, that the actual events
20:30
Speaker 1: of the history back into the Jewish fault?
20:31
Speaker 2: Like how does it achieve this?
20:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like the core question. And so to
20:37
Speaker 3: answer this real quick, we should talk in slightly greater
20:41
Speaker 3: depth about stefrijos upon sources in their nature. So, as
20:44
Speaker 3: you say, in around seventy five, the year seventy five,
20:49
Speaker 3: Josephus writes his Bellumudaicum his Jewish War in Greek for
20:52
Speaker 3: sort of like a yeah, a Roman audience maybe also
20:56
Speaker 3: assumes that Jews will be in the sort of readership
20:58
Speaker 3: or hearership rather, and then twenty years later, in ninety
21:01
Speaker 3: five or something like that, he writes his Great Jewish Antiquities.
21:04
Speaker 3: And these are works that famously are basically picked up
21:07
Speaker 3: by Christian authors and taken as you know, gospel or
21:12
Speaker 3: at least sort of like gospel handbooks, and ignored largely
21:17
Speaker 3: within Rabbinic Judaism. They become extremely important within Christian historiography.
21:21
Speaker 3: In the fourth century, Josephus's Jewish War gets translated into Latin.
21:27
Speaker 3: The translation is rather wooden, it's not super good, and
21:31
Speaker 3: in the very same year, maybe around the year three
21:33
Speaker 3: seventy five, it gets paraphrased into this other work on
21:36
Speaker 3: the Destruction of Jerusalem, which I mentioned. So there's like
21:40
Speaker 3: two Christian Latin versions of josephus Jewish War that exists
21:43
Speaker 3: already within less than a century of Constantine and Eusebius,
21:47
Speaker 3: which is remarkable. Sefri Jos upon uses on the Destruction
21:51
Speaker 3: of Jerusalem. Pseudo Hegesippus does not seem to have known
21:55
Speaker 3: the Latin translation of the Jewish War. If he did,
21:59
Speaker 3: he never really references it in a way that's trackable,
22:02
Speaker 3: which is very interesting. Also another interesting thing. Josepha's The
22:06
Speaker 3: Jewish War, at least one book of it existed in
22:08
Speaker 3: Syriac by the end of the fourth century. That's another story.
22:11
Speaker 3: And then in the middle of the sixth century Cassiodorus
22:14
Speaker 3: his great sort of book making industry of Vivarium. He
22:20
Speaker 3: initiates the translation of the Jewish Antiquities into Latin, and
22:24
Speaker 3: among other things, he tells us that like, people don't
22:26
Speaker 3: really know who translated the Jewish War into Latin. Some
22:29
Speaker 3: people say Ambrose, some people say Jerome, some people say Refiness,
22:33
Speaker 3: but I don't really know. So anyway, those texts exist
22:37
Speaker 3: by the sixth century. And what the larger interpretive Christian
22:41
Speaker 3: tradition does and what on the destruction of Jerusalem or
22:46
Speaker 3: pseudo Hegesippus does within the Josephin narrative is makes it
22:51
Speaker 3: explicitly and overwhelmingly Christian, which is to say, he frames
22:56
Speaker 3: the narrative in such a way that the reader and
23:00
Speaker 3: escape the conclusion that the destruction of Jerusalem is a
23:04
Speaker 3: result of the jews rejection of Jesus there would be savior. Therefore,
23:10
Speaker 3: in revenge, God's basically destroys Jerusalem, which represents his abandonment
23:16
Speaker 3: of his people, and of course, for the Christian authors
23:20
Speaker 3: and readers of these texts, the idea is that actually
23:23
Speaker 3: were his new people, and so this is like a
23:26
Speaker 3: historical event that kind of catalyzes and realizes that historical
23:31
Speaker 3: spiritual reality or what have you. So this is very
23:40
Speaker 3: widely and commonly known within late Antique Christianity. This is
23:44
Speaker 3: the way that people understood the history of the Roman
23:48
Speaker 3: Jewish War. The reason that Josephus was such an important
23:51
Speaker 3: source for these authors is because he told that story.
23:54
Speaker 3: It's not just that he just has this very brief
23:57
Speaker 3: mention called the Testimony of Flavianum where he meant Jesus
24:00
Speaker 3: of Nazareth. It's that Josephus tells that story. And Josephus
24:04
Speaker 3: actually tells the story in a way that's kind of
24:06
Speaker 3: critical of the Jews. Now, he kind of limits that
24:09
Speaker 3: criticism to the sort of hardcore Judean rebels, and he's
24:14
Speaker 3: at pains to make this distinction between like bad Judeans
24:19
Speaker 3: and like the rest of the Judaeans and the bad
24:21
Speaker 3: Judeans like caused this major problem for the rest of
24:24
Speaker 3: us by being too zealous and like poking the Roman
24:28
Speaker 3: bear Christians took that and were like, oh, Josephus is
24:32
Speaker 3: kind of right, but he didn't really understand what was
24:33
Speaker 3: going on, and so it gets rewritten. I mean, that's
24:37
Speaker 3: an appropriation of like emic Jewish history written by Josephus,
24:42
Speaker 3: where the Christians are like, this is what really is happening,
24:45
Speaker 3: and that was the status quo for like, you know,
24:48
Speaker 3: more or less the first millennium of the Common Era. Now,
24:51
Speaker 3: of course Jewish readers were not reading that and like, oh, yeah,
24:54
Speaker 3: they must be right, this is like a Christian thing.
24:57
Speaker 3: But surely they were aware of these types of narratives,
25:01
Speaker 3: and or maybe these types of narratives came to the
25:06
Speaker 3: awareness of particular Jews in southern Italy in the early
25:10
Speaker 3: tenth century or something like that. But in any case,
25:13
Speaker 3: the author of sefri jos Upon is aware of these
25:16
Speaker 3: narratives and rewrites the history in a way that in
25:20
Speaker 3: the first instance, it deletes all of the Christianization of
25:24
Speaker 3: the narrative. So on the Destruction of Jerusalem. This this
25:28
Speaker 3: Latin Christian text. It begins with the preface that sort
25:31
Speaker 3: of explains how everything works naturally that that's not in
25:36
Speaker 3: sephri jos Upon, but there's also all these tidbits across
25:40
Speaker 3: the narrative that are not in Sephri Jos Upon, and
25:42
Speaker 3: sometimes this means like the completely working of key chapters. So,
25:46
Speaker 3: for example, I wrote my dissertation on chapter five point
25:50
Speaker 3: two of on the Destruction of Jerusalem, which takes this
25:53
Speaker 3: like very brief mention in Josephus's Jewish War where he
25:57
Speaker 3: sort of like talks to Jerusalem for a second and
25:59
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, how could this happen? This is like
26:02
Speaker 3: super sad, I can't believe you kind of led yourself
26:06
Speaker 3: to be destroyed by refusing to sort of come to
26:10
Speaker 3: some sort of agreement with the Romans. The author on
26:13
Speaker 3: the Destruction of Jerusalem turns this into a thirteen hundred
26:17
Speaker 3: and fifty word sort of like lamentation oration Dia tribe
26:21
Speaker 3: aimed at Jerusalem and by proxy of the Jews, and
26:24
Speaker 3: is sort of like, how could this happen to you, Jerusalem? Well,
26:28
Speaker 3: let's think about that for a second. And then it
26:29
Speaker 3: has all these sort of poetic ways of saying, well,
26:32
Speaker 3: what happened was you rejected Jesus and God sent Jesus
26:35
Speaker 3: to save you guys, and you didn't want to do that.
26:38
Speaker 3: And so now you've basically destroyed yourselves through the sort
26:42
Speaker 3: of theodical vehicle, if you will, of Rome. This is
26:45
Speaker 3: what's happened. Sephri jos Upon remarkably contains this chapter but
26:50
Speaker 3: deletes all of the Christianization from it. So there's no
26:54
Speaker 3: mentions of Jesus, there's no mentions of all of these
26:58
Speaker 3: sort of like Christian assumptions. But the bulk of the
27:02
Speaker 3: speech is still there, and so the author uses that
27:04
Speaker 3: and it rewrites it in this Jewish idiom where it
27:09
Speaker 3: kind of reads like one of the prophets of the
27:11
Speaker 3: Hebrew Bible, and it's like, how could this happen? Oh,
27:14
Speaker 3: you first century Jews who witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem,
27:18
Speaker 3: you were sort of out of step with the Covenant.
27:22
Speaker 3: God did need to come in and chastise you. But
27:25
Speaker 3: of course this is the type of chastisement you see
27:28
Speaker 3: across the scriptural tradition and across the sort of Jewish history.
27:33
Speaker 3: From the perspective of the Jewish consciousness, we are always
27:36
Speaker 3: God's people, and whenever kind of bad things happen to us,
27:40
Speaker 3: this is God checking whatever we've forgotten or whatever we've
27:44
Speaker 3: neglected to do, and so sefri Jo Supon does this
27:48
Speaker 3: all over the place, and the place you really see
27:51
Speaker 3: it is in these speeches where the Christian author of
27:54
Speaker 3: the Latin text has inserted these like implicit or explicit
27:58
Speaker 3: christianizations into the narrative, like this is what's really going on.
28:02
Speaker 3: It's the Christian kind of replacement theology view, and the
28:07
Speaker 3: Hebrew writing author of sefrios Upon has taken that and
28:11
Speaker 3: has not omitted the chapter, but has rewritten the chapter.
28:16
Speaker 3: So now it's it's like for us, by us, it's remarkable.
28:22
Speaker 3: So that's what cefrijos Upon is. It's a reclamation. It's
28:25
Speaker 3: a taking back of the story of Second Temple Judaism,
28:28
Speaker 3: of the story of the Roman Jewish War, of the
28:31
Speaker 3: story of Jerusalem's destruction and the mass death upon Masada
28:35
Speaker 3: for a Jewish perspective that does not write the Jews
28:39
Speaker 3: out of history. To use language I've used before, that's
28:42
Speaker 3: what the Christian authors were trying to do with the
28:45
Speaker 3: destruction of Jerusalem's story. That's what they thought it meant.
28:48
Speaker 3: They thought it meant that the Jews had been God's people,
28:51
Speaker 3: and the year seventy marks their decimation from the historical record,
28:55
Speaker 3: and the Jewish author of Sefrijos upon the shortest summation
28:59
Speaker 3: of that narrative is no.
29:03
Speaker 2: A very short summation. Indeed, I like that.
29:05
Speaker 1: But it's curious because of course you mentioned the office
29:08
Speaker 1: of doing this with the Christian authors, but he's also
29:11
Speaker 1: he's also doing that.
29:12
Speaker 2: With Josephus, who was of course a Jewish author.
29:15
Speaker 1: Now, and you know, not just a Jewish author, but
29:17
Speaker 1: you know, in many ways he was a Jewish author
29:20
Speaker 1: who didn't turn anti Jewish, he didn't, you know, use
29:23
Speaker 1: his historical skills to undermine the country, sort of provides
29:26
Speaker 1: an apologio almost for the Jews and his works in
29:29
Speaker 1: what sense does your upon different from him as well?
29:31
Speaker 1: And it's easy to see how he differs and sort
29:34
Speaker 1: of rejudaizes from the and pushes out the Christian perspectives,
29:37
Speaker 1: which sees the destruction of the temple, on the miseries
29:39
Speaker 1: of Jewish history as punishment for the rejection of Jesus,
29:42
Speaker 1: et cetera. Are there ways in which he also reworks
29:45
Speaker 1: Josephus's point of view or do you see like a
29:48
Speaker 1: much greater convergence between those two world views.
29:51
Speaker 3: Let's say, yeah, yes, there are all sorts of ways
29:55
Speaker 3: that he does that. So the one that's most on
29:59
Speaker 3: the nose, say, so, Josephus represents a brand of Judaism,
30:06
Speaker 3: so Hellenistic Judaism, or Jewish Hellenism, as it were, that
30:09
Speaker 3: as as Louis Feldman has documented, to the tune of
30:12
Speaker 3: like thousands of pages, uses the Greco Roman idiom of
30:18
Speaker 3: kind of ancient national history and culture heroes to present
30:24
Speaker 3: the Jewish tradition and Judaism and Jews to itself and
30:29
Speaker 3: to others as this sort of noble, robust national past
30:33
Speaker 3: that's it's old like Egypt and strong like Rome. And
30:37
Speaker 3: Josephus does this as well as anyone. Sepri jos Upon
30:41
Speaker 3: does that like twice as much. It's like it's like
30:46
Speaker 3: two point zero. So the language I use to describe
30:49
Speaker 3: this is I say that sefri jos Upon resurrects the
30:52
Speaker 3: spirit of Hellenistic Judaism. But when it resurrects the spirit
30:56
Speaker 3: of Hellenistic Judaism, the zeitgeist of that period and of
31:00
Speaker 3: the sort of like literary and cultural and conceptual and
31:03
Speaker 3: ideological flavor of the Greek writing Jews of the of
31:06
Speaker 3: the last centuries b c. In the first century. Ce
31:10
Speaker 3: jose Upon does that on steroids. So so, just by
31:13
Speaker 3: way of example, when he tells the story of well,
31:18
Speaker 3: this is a problematic example, but I'm gonna give it anyway.
31:20
Speaker 3: So because everybody knows the story of Daniel and the
31:22
Speaker 3: lions Den, right, So in the story of Daniel, the
31:25
Speaker 3: Lions Den and cefri jos Upon. So so these these
31:28
Speaker 3: are these chiefs of the king. They conspire against Daniel
31:31
Speaker 3: to have him break the law by by praying, and
31:33
Speaker 3: in sefri jos Upon, the king actually sees what these
31:36
Speaker 3: guys are doing, and he calls him out on it.
31:39
Speaker 3: He says, what are you gonna do when Daniel's God
31:41
Speaker 3: rescues him from the dead, allions, then you're gonna have
31:43
Speaker 3: to take his place? And Daniel's accusers are like, okay,
31:45
Speaker 3: so be it. And so there's this back and forth,
31:48
Speaker 3: and then you know, the king comes back and and
31:50
Speaker 3: he he spends like a bunch of time trying to
31:53
Speaker 3: save Daniel from the hands of these of these other
31:57
Speaker 3: leaders who are who are against Daniel. And he says,
32:00
Speaker 3: you've conspired against Daniel, and I have this quote here.
32:03
Speaker 3: Leave him alone, for he is a yehooti and his
32:06
Speaker 3: God is awesome and terrible and mighty, and he will
32:10
Speaker 3: demolish and destroy you. And we read that he spends
32:13
Speaker 3: all night trying to save Daniel, and these guys who
32:16
Speaker 3: have it out for Daniel aren't having it, but they
32:19
Speaker 3: have a lot more sort of chance to repent, as
32:21
Speaker 3: it were. And then they kind of threatened the king back,
32:26
Speaker 3: and they're like, if Daniel doesn't go to the lions den,
32:29
Speaker 3: we're going to know that you've broken the law of
32:31
Speaker 3: the Meads and the Persians, which of course can't be
32:34
Speaker 3: you know, can't be gain said, And so the king
32:36
Speaker 3: has no choice, and so the king gives Daniel into
32:39
Speaker 3: their hands to put him into the lions lions den,
32:43
Speaker 3: and then this remarkable thing happens. The prophet Habakuk happens
32:46
Speaker 3: to be having a feast at the same time Daniel's
32:48
Speaker 3: put in the lions den. Daniel goes down in the
32:50
Speaker 3: lions den and the lions start licking him and wagging
32:54
Speaker 3: their tails like I didn't know lions could wag their
32:56
Speaker 3: tails like dogs, but this is what the text says.
32:58
Speaker 3: And they come up and they're having like a great time,
33:01
Speaker 3: and it says like dogs when their master comes in
33:04
Speaker 3: from the field, so it's like a happy golden retriever.
33:07
Speaker 3: This is the way the lions are around Daniel. Habit
33:10
Speaker 3: Cook is having a feast at the same time, and
33:13
Speaker 3: God shows up to him in a vision is like, hey,
33:16
Speaker 3: Daniel's hungry too, so Habit Cook brings some food and
33:19
Speaker 3: the Angel of the Lord brings that to Daniel in
33:21
Speaker 3: the lions den. Daniel and the angel sit there and
33:24
Speaker 3: have a nice like three course dinner, you know, and
33:27
Speaker 3: then the narrative continues. The next morning, you know, the
33:29
Speaker 3: lions haven't heard Daniel. The people who accused him and
33:32
Speaker 3: their families are thrown in. The lions crush their bones,
33:35
Speaker 3: the author tells us because the lions hadn't eaten for
33:37
Speaker 3: many days. So it's like there's another extra detail. And
33:40
Speaker 3: then the lions give out this great roar when they
33:43
Speaker 3: chomp up all these families, and we're told that this
33:46
Speaker 3: roar is heard far and wide, so people are like, oh, no,
33:49
Speaker 3: the lions got out of their cages because we hear
33:52
Speaker 3: we hear this huge roar from the city center. So
33:54
Speaker 3: it's like if you take biblical narratives or if you
33:58
Speaker 3: take biblical biblical narratives and imagine what they look like
34:01
Speaker 3: in Hollywood. That's something like what you get in sefri
34:05
Speaker 3: jos Upon and so and so. Josephus did this to
34:08
Speaker 3: some degree. Sefri Josupon does it way more so. Severri
34:12
Speaker 3: jos Upon is convinced that the Jewish national tradition is
34:15
Speaker 3: one of political power, is one of ethical probity, is one.
34:21
Speaker 3: It's this ancient, weighty, powerful people who exist alongside the
34:29
Speaker 3: Romans and the Persians and what have you, and they
34:33
Speaker 3: do great deeds. So so one other answer to your question.
34:37
Speaker 3: So Josephus famously may or may not have have identified
34:41
Speaker 3: as a Pharisee, right like he he has this famous,
34:45
Speaker 3: this famous portion of the Jewish War where he he
34:47
Speaker 3: talks about what he calls the three or four Jewish
34:50
Speaker 3: philosophies in book two, and he's like, this is what
34:52
Speaker 3: the Sadducees believe, this is what the Pharisees believe, this
34:54
Speaker 3: is what the Asins believe.
34:57
Speaker 1: Only is one of our only good sources about what
35:00
Speaker 1: they about these the sex in the whole second type
35:04
Speaker 1: of period.
35:04
Speaker 2: It's amazing how much is based on this sort of yeah,
35:06
Speaker 2: throw away part of Josephus, but yeah, gone.
35:09
Speaker 3: No, that's exactly right. So basically Sefrioson is not as
35:12
Speaker 3: impressed with the Pharisees. So when John Hrcanus has his
35:15
Speaker 3: sort of like run in with the Pharisees because there
35:18
Speaker 3: they sort of inform his leadership, and he's like, let
35:21
Speaker 3: me know if I do anything wrong, and the Pharisees
35:23
Speaker 3: are like, you're awesome, we would never say you do
35:25
Speaker 3: anything wrong. And he's called a priest and a king,
35:28
Speaker 3: which is not in the ancient sources. But then there's
35:30
Speaker 3: this we're told there's this wicked Pharisee who shows up
35:33
Speaker 3: and he's like renounced the priesthood and just be satisfied
35:37
Speaker 3: with the kingship, and then Hyrcanus is like super mad
35:39
Speaker 3: and they have a falling out. But basically the way
35:41
Speaker 3: that the Pharisees are portrayed in the narrative is not
35:44
Speaker 3: as positive with what we find in Josephus. And so
35:47
Speaker 3: the author of Sefrio s Upon is different than Josephus,
35:51
Speaker 3: even though they both inhabit, like, if you will, the
35:55
Speaker 3: Jewish side of the Jewish Christian register. So it's not
35:58
Speaker 3: like it's not like a third way the author in
36:01
Speaker 3: Josephus clearly agree upon sort of basic tenets of the world,
36:06
Speaker 3: which is to say, the Jews are the people of God,
36:10
Speaker 3: and God maintains a relationship with their people in the
36:13
Speaker 3: events of history, whereas the Christians have been at pains
36:17
Speaker 3: to sort of complicate that message, to use the euphemism.
36:22
Speaker 3: But but yeah, he does differ from Josephus in in
36:26
Speaker 3: narrative ways, in the ways that he the ways that
36:30
Speaker 3: he portrays Jewish greatness, and in certain of his sort
36:33
Speaker 3: of like religious proclivities.
36:35
Speaker 1: All right, So there was a lot there, and one
36:37
Speaker 1: of the things you did, I didn't want to discuss
36:39
Speaker 1: or didn't want to touch on a few specifics of
36:41
Speaker 1: those sort of rewriting stories. And there are a few
36:43
Speaker 1: different ways in which this is done. Another one like
36:45
Speaker 1: to draw our attention to it. And if you could
36:47
Speaker 1: outline this, because I think there's a classic case of
36:49
Speaker 1: sort of jossipon and his ways of doing.
36:52
Speaker 2: Things or redoing things.
36:54
Speaker 1: Is the SENTI the mcgilla story, the story of Monai
36:56
Speaker 1: and Asta and how he tells it and retells them
36:58
Speaker 1: because of course, you know, we'll very form with the story.
37:00
Speaker 1: But under the pen of Yood. It undergoes quite quite
37:04
Speaker 1: a retelling. So you walk us through that retelling, and
37:07
Speaker 1: what does he seek? What is seek to gain by
37:09
Speaker 1: doing it in this way? Why does he retails? What
37:11
Speaker 1: is the benefits of the upside of reworking the material
37:14
Speaker 1: in this way?
37:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, So sep Josupon's chapter nine, which is on Esther
37:20
Speaker 3: and Mordecai. What's so interesting about it is that it
37:23
Speaker 3: is largely based upon the so called additions to the
37:26
Speaker 3: Book of Esther that appear in the Septuagint and so
37:28
Speaker 3: exist in the Greek and Latin Christian versions, and the
37:33
Speaker 3: textual relationships. They are very complicated, because the est textural
37:36
Speaker 3: tradition is very complicated, as you probably know. But in
37:39
Speaker 3: terms of the narrative as it appears in seph for Josupon,
37:44
Speaker 3: I'll just read the first brief paragraph of how this
37:47
Speaker 3: narrative begins to sort of give you a flavor of
37:49
Speaker 3: what Yosupon does with this story. So he says, only
37:52
Speaker 3: in the days of a Hatsuwares was the memory of
37:54
Speaker 3: Judah nearly lost from the entire realm of Persia through
37:58
Speaker 3: the hatred of one Amalakite named Haman, who stole the
38:02
Speaker 3: heart of King Hasaweres. So already the narrative stakes of
38:06
Speaker 3: this story are larger than life, the characters are larger
38:09
Speaker 3: than life. Hayman is an Amalekite, and so you have
38:12
Speaker 3: this sort of axis of evil between Macedonians and Amalekites
38:16
Speaker 3: who team up to try to eradicate the Zira, the
38:23
Speaker 3: seed of the Jewish people, from the face of the earth.
38:26
Speaker 3: And of course this is also in the Estra story
38:28
Speaker 3: the Biblical text, but it is way more prominent in
38:32
Speaker 3: the Josupon version. And so here's what we read. Hasawares
38:35
Speaker 3: gave Hayman license to act as he wished throughout the kingdom,
38:38
Speaker 3: even to wipe out the memory of Judah from the
38:40
Speaker 3: entire Persian realm, because Mordecai, a Jew of the nobles
38:44
Speaker 3: of Benjamin, did not rise before him. Again, this is
38:47
Speaker 3: how the Estra story starts in Josupon. These nobles were
38:52
Speaker 3: the patricians benjamin Nite heroes who accompanied their king Saul
38:56
Speaker 3: on the field of Amelek and delivered Amelek, a mighty
38:59
Speaker 3: and power will blow all the way from hobby law
39:02
Speaker 3: unto sure a land of many days journey. They slew
39:05
Speaker 3: more than five hundred thousand dead of the Amalekite people
39:08
Speaker 3: all destroyed. And King Saul's war against the Amalekites, truly,
39:13
Speaker 3: he's slaughtered souls throughout the land of Amelek, men, women
39:16
Speaker 3: and children, more than one hundred myriads in all. This
39:19
Speaker 3: is why this man, Hayman, preserved a hatred against the
39:22
Speaker 3: Jews and especially against the tribe of Benjamin. So you
39:25
Speaker 3: can see there that the story of Esther and Mordechai
39:28
Speaker 3: has been integrated into this very old, very sort of
39:32
Speaker 3: like prominent, prominent political historical framework. So the Jews from
39:38
Speaker 3: ancient times, King Saul and the Benjaminites they killed like
39:43
Speaker 3: a crapload of Amalekites. And so you know, centuries later,
39:47
Speaker 3: this sort of quintessential Amalekite Hayman just has it out
39:51
Speaker 3: for the Jews. And you get this in the very
39:52
Speaker 3: first paragraph of the narrative, and so you know, and
39:56
Speaker 3: so he goes after the Jews there within their of itself,
40:01
Speaker 3: as we already saw, Mordecai hears about what these eunuchs
40:04
Speaker 3: want to do to the king. Where again we get
40:07
Speaker 3: gratuitous details. We're told that the eunuchs he hears them
40:09
Speaker 3: plotting they're like, they're going to kill him, and they're
40:12
Speaker 3: going to take his head. They're going to take his
40:14
Speaker 3: head to the to the the King of Macedon, and
40:18
Speaker 3: this is the way they're going to sort of like
40:19
Speaker 3: prove their loyalty and take him out. And Mordecai tells
40:22
Speaker 3: the king, and the king kills those guys, hangs them
40:24
Speaker 3: on trees, and Hayman of course ends up getting his
40:28
Speaker 3: come uppance as well. He's exceedingly angry when his two
40:31
Speaker 3: eunuchs get found out by Mordecai. We're also told their names.
40:35
Speaker 3: Mordecai has this dream, this dream of these competing dragons
40:39
Speaker 3: where the global political framework is placed in this image
40:43
Speaker 3: that Mordecai sort of imagines. And then you've got these
40:46
Speaker 3: long prayers of Esther and Mordecai, which are you know,
40:49
Speaker 3: which are famous additions to the Esther narrative in the
40:52
Speaker 3: in the so called apocryphal tradition. And so basically what
40:55
Speaker 3: we see Esther doing in the cefrijos Upon version is
40:58
Speaker 3: praying like she does act and she goes into the king,
41:01
Speaker 3: of course, but before she does so, she has this
41:04
Speaker 3: elaborate prayer, and so there's a lot of prayer in
41:07
Speaker 3: the chapter, which for the megalaw kind of makes a
41:10
Speaker 3: lot of sense. And so what's so interesting about it
41:14
Speaker 3: is that the basic narrative upshot of the Esther story
41:19
Speaker 3: is not different in Sefrios upon Visa via the Book
41:21
Speaker 3: of Esther, Like the bad guys and good guys are
41:23
Speaker 3: still the same. What happens to him and what happens
41:26
Speaker 3: to Esther and Mordecai is still pretty much the same.
41:29
Speaker 3: What doesn't happen to the Jews, but that with which
41:32
Speaker 3: they're threatened is still the same. But the scale on
41:38
Speaker 3: which the story is told, it seems like this is
41:41
Speaker 3: like the big global political event that's going on at
41:44
Speaker 3: the time, and like the complete eradication of the Jews
41:49
Speaker 3: is planned by this person who hails from this ancient
41:54
Speaker 3: people who have hated the Jews forever, and we're told
42:00
Speaker 3: this a number of times to the chapter. I mean,
42:01
Speaker 3: the chapter is not very long, it's shorter than the
42:03
Speaker 3: Book of Esther, but yeah, so that's that's uh. The
42:08
Speaker 3: Esther Mordecai story is is it's a perfect example of
42:11
Speaker 3: how Seffrias upon the tools traditional narratives inserts them into
42:16
Speaker 3: this historiographical trajectory of ancient Israelite history and does and
42:20
Speaker 3: does so in a way where the Jews appear more
42:24
Speaker 3: politically potent, more i would say, more kind of ethically laudable,
42:33
Speaker 3: and more divinely attended than even we find in the
42:38
Speaker 3: Biblical narrative.
42:39
Speaker 1: So this is fascinating, especially because as you say this,
42:42
Speaker 1: this is sort of the paradox of Yozi put in
42:45
Speaker 1: a way and that on the one hand, he is,
42:46
Speaker 1: in fact, you know, judaizing to put it, put it crudely,
42:49
Speaker 1: and sort of taking a bunch of texts, amount of sources,
42:52
Speaker 1: a bunch of stories, and we're into a Jewish history
42:55
Speaker 1: and putting it in a readily understandable Hebrew and putting
42:59
Speaker 1: it within more recognized the Jewish theological framework. On the
43:01
Speaker 1: one hand, on the other hand, he feels kind of
43:04
Speaker 1: free to take these very canonical stories like the modehain
43:08
Speaker 1: Esta story and add to them, yes, embellish them, you know,
43:12
Speaker 1: in soe those of things. And so it's sort of
43:14
Speaker 1: on the one hand conservative, on the other hand, very
43:17
Speaker 1: free wheeling.
43:18
Speaker 2: Would that be fair?
43:19
Speaker 3: That's that's exactly right, And I couldn't have put it better.
43:23
Speaker 3: Somewhat conservative and somewhat free wheeling. And I think it's
43:27
Speaker 3: very true to say that the author feels very free
43:30
Speaker 3: to deal with the sources and in this way. And
43:33
Speaker 3: so this is what's so interesting about the narrative. So
43:35
Speaker 3: one thing that like if you're if you are really
43:38
Speaker 3: familiar with sort of like the language and the idioms
43:40
Speaker 3: and whatnot of the Hebrew Bible, if you're reading through
43:43
Speaker 3: sefrios Upon's Hebrew every one or two or three sentences,
43:47
Speaker 3: you you will look at it and you'll be like, oh,
43:51
Speaker 3: this phrase, this is like a Biblical phrase. This appears
43:54
Speaker 3: in like I don't know this, this is like a
43:57
Speaker 3: Psalm phrase. So this is like we find this in
43:59
Speaker 3: the book of that it is so cephri yez Upon
44:02
Speaker 3: is written in like a a literally biblical Hebrew idiom.
44:08
Speaker 3: And so I would say that, you know, that does
44:12
Speaker 3: something to the fabric of the tech. It sounds kind
44:15
Speaker 3: of like you're reading the Bible like there's a there's
44:17
Speaker 3: a sort of I don't know what you would want
44:19
Speaker 3: to call it, but there's there's like a scriptural depth,
44:22
Speaker 3: the depth of sanctity like built into the language itself,
44:26
Speaker 3: where that you can't escape. At the same time, in
44:28
Speaker 3: terms of narrative, the text is very free, and the
44:32
Speaker 3: author is very comfortable being like I'm gonna, I'm gonna
44:35
Speaker 3: sort of like reshape what's going on here.
44:37
Speaker 2: Now.
44:37
Speaker 3: Of course this doesn't this sits I would say it was.
44:41
Speaker 3: It sits less uncomfortably with the mid Rash tradition than
44:45
Speaker 3: it does with the you know, with the sort of
44:51
Speaker 3: like Protestant ethic of needing to needing to be like
44:58
Speaker 3: directly faithful to biblical narrative, and so here. You know,
45:02
Speaker 3: when we think of historiography today as a genre, I
45:05
Speaker 3: would say there's a relationship between the way that Protestantism
45:09
Speaker 3: came to understand the Bible and the way that twentieth
45:13
Speaker 3: and twenty first century Western thought came to understand historiography.
45:18
Speaker 3: And both are affected by the Renaissance and the Enlightenment,
45:21
Speaker 3: not just the Reformation. And it's that like his historical
45:25
Speaker 3: narrative is like precise, it needs to be exactly recognized
45:31
Speaker 3: and adhered to, and if you depart a little bit
45:33
Speaker 3: from that, it creates all sorts of problems. One interesting
45:37
Speaker 3: place we've seen this in popular culture in recent years
45:39
Speaker 3: is when I don't know if you ever saw the
45:42
Speaker 3: film Noah that came out in twenty fourteen with Russell Crowe.
45:46
Speaker 3: But and so this is like, this is a classic,
45:48
Speaker 3: classic mid Rashic take on this, on this biblical narrative.
45:52
Speaker 3: And if you if you looked, I actually present a
45:54
Speaker 3: paper on this, one of the first academic papers I
45:56
Speaker 3: ever presented. If you went online and looked at the
45:58
Speaker 3: reactions to the story, Jewish reactions to like tended to
46:05
Speaker 3: recognize what midrash does and sort of found it interesting
46:07
Speaker 3: and could engage with it. But it's like the American
46:10
Speaker 3: Protestant imagination couldn't even like people's brains were exploding. They
46:16
Speaker 3: couldn't like deal with, you know, what had happened to
46:20
Speaker 3: this narrative because it's like that didn't happen. That's not
46:22
Speaker 3: the way it happens. And so you know, some of
46:25
Speaker 3: those you know, some of those dynamics I think you
46:27
Speaker 3: can take as useful heuristics going back a thousand years
46:31
Speaker 3: and looking at sever yos upon where you've got this
46:33
Speaker 3: this combination of an author who's arguably pious based upon
46:39
Speaker 3: a number of indicators we can look at, but at
46:42
Speaker 3: the same time has no issue, has no issue. You know,
46:49
Speaker 3: let's say reconstructing biblical and parabiblical narrative, rewritten Bible, et cetera.
46:56
Speaker 2: Making his own midrash essentially indeed, indeed excellent.
47:01
Speaker 1: So let's move on a little bit to the last section,
47:03
Speaker 1: John wanzccover, which is the reception of this book and
47:07
Speaker 1: the way it was read and used in the subsequent centuries,
47:10
Speaker 1: as you So, let's first talk about the Jewish reception.
47:12
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, this book is written sometime in the
47:14
Speaker 1: tenth century, but already quite soon after it.
47:17
Speaker 2: Is being referenced to it.
47:18
Speaker 1: I believe it's referenced by rashly Bybinezra, by various other
47:21
Speaker 1: medieval and early modern Jewish thinkers. And I mean they
47:25
Speaker 1: seem to refer to They seem to take this book
47:27
Speaker 1: to be to be history. They seem to take this
47:29
Speaker 1: book to be, you know, somewhat authoritative or at least
47:32
Speaker 1: a source that they can quote and rely upon. So
47:34
Speaker 1: I'm I'm curious, what can you say about the way
47:38
Speaker 1: this text was used and utilized in the centuries following
47:43
Speaker 1: within the Jewish traditionion.
47:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, the I would say the most important broad
47:50
Speaker 3: spectrum thing to know about its reception is that the
47:52
Speaker 3: text is treated as an open text, which, given the
47:56
Speaker 3: nature of the text that we were just discussing, this
47:59
Speaker 3: actually fits pretty well with the sort of vibe laid
48:02
Speaker 3: down by the original Yoseupon, whatever that was, is that
48:06
Speaker 3: it was treated as as an open text, which means
48:09
Speaker 3: it was added to very early on and pretty extensively.
48:14
Speaker 3: And so by the twelve thirteenth and fourteenth century you
48:18
Speaker 3: have numerous recensions of this text, and these have been
48:22
Speaker 3: the ones that most people have read since that time.
48:25
Speaker 3: So not until really the twentieth century, and frankly the
48:29
Speaker 3: twenty first century with the work of Saskia Donits, this
48:32
Speaker 3: Jewish studies scholar at now at the University of Frankfurt online,
48:36
Speaker 3: not until recently have we appreciated, like the original text
48:39
Speaker 3: what that looked like. And we still don't have like
48:41
Speaker 3: a perfect idea. So for example, I gave you the
48:43
Speaker 3: Daniel and the lions Den example. But in the earliest
48:48
Speaker 3: text of Yosupon, so far as we can tell, based
48:50
Speaker 3: upon fragments from the kiro Ganesa and some of the
48:53
Speaker 3: best manuscripts, chapters four through six, which has the Daniel
48:56
Speaker 3: material did not exist in the earliest iteration of Yosupon,
49:00
Speaker 3: but in later editions. You have all sorts of interesting
49:03
Speaker 3: stuff that gets added. You have you have an account
49:06
Speaker 3: of the crowning of the Emperor of the spasiin which
49:08
Speaker 3: is manifestly based upon tropes in medieval crowning narratives. You
49:14
Speaker 3: have material about Christians, and about Jesus and about all
49:20
Speaker 3: sorts of crazy stuff that gets added to the text.
49:23
Speaker 3: But so I guess the first thing to say is
49:26
Speaker 3: that the text makes it into Judeo Arabic by the
49:31
Speaker 3: eleventh century, which is which is pretty early. And so
49:36
Speaker 3: there you have Jewish readers in a different linguistic milieu
49:41
Speaker 3: engaging the text. And that's that's interesting, that's a that's
49:45
Speaker 3: a sort of that's another story. So in southern Italy,
49:50
Speaker 3: also in the late eleventh or early twelfth century, Rochamil
49:54
Speaker 3: ben Schlomo he includes a coffee of Sefriosa pon in
49:58
Speaker 3: his cepher hazik Renote. So these these sort of chronologically
50:02
Speaker 3: are chronographically oriented texts about the Jewish tradition that crop
50:08
Speaker 3: up more and more in in what what we're called
50:11
Speaker 3: in medieval studies, the High Middle Ages. These very often
50:16
Speaker 3: include large portions of cephri jos upon or themselves based
50:21
Speaker 3: upon sefri jos Upon sorry the Sefer Huziker note, as
50:25
Speaker 3: you may know, that's Eliezer ben Asher's work, and so
50:28
Speaker 3: a fourteenth the fourteenth century anthology of Rockmeil integrates that
50:34
Speaker 3: into it. Abraham even Daoud in the twelfth century and
50:37
Speaker 3: his Dora Dorote Olam and his other works uses jos Upon.
50:42
Speaker 3: And if you put the Hebrew texts next to each other,
50:45
Speaker 3: you can tell that this is this is explicitly taken
50:48
Speaker 3: from sefri jos Upon, so cefri jos Upon itself. It
50:52
Speaker 3: becomes a bedrock for different types of historiographically oriented literature,
51:00
Speaker 3: and this occurs all over the place. One of the
51:03
Speaker 3: greatest expansions of it are made by Judah Iven Moscone
51:07
Speaker 3: in the fourteenth century, and that becomes the basis for
51:12
Speaker 3: what's called the Constantinoble Edition, an edition of the texts
51:16
Speaker 3: that's published in fifteen ten. The first edition printed was
51:21
Speaker 3: printed by Abraham Knat in Mantua in fourteen seventy five
51:26
Speaker 3: or fourteen seventy nine or fourteen eighty or something like that.
51:29
Speaker 3: They're sort of arguments about exactly when and yes, so
51:33
Speaker 3: Rashi read the work. It appears to have been part
51:36
Speaker 3: of the part of Rashi's curriculum, as it were. So
51:40
Speaker 3: it's a text that gets read, gets expanded and integrated
51:43
Speaker 3: into kind of like a living tradition and used in
51:46
Speaker 3: all of these other texts. And what's interesting about sefrijo
51:52
Speaker 3: s Upon is that the text itself it cites Joseph Benngurion,
51:59
Speaker 3: who is a conflation of the historical author Josephus who
52:05
Speaker 3: lived in the first century, and another Joseph who is
52:10
Speaker 3: identified in book three of this Again, the source of
52:15
Speaker 3: sefrijos Upon deeg. Scidio here is Limitano on the Destruction
52:19
Speaker 3: of Jerusalem by Pseudo Hegesippus, and book three it is
52:23
Speaker 3: listing the leaders of Judea and Galilee in the Roman
52:26
Speaker 3: Jewish War. It mentions a certain Joseph Gorrionidez, son of Goryon,
52:31
Speaker 3: and the author of sefrijos Upon identifies that with Josephus
52:35
Speaker 3: the historical author, and so in the Jewish tradition and
52:41
Speaker 3: the Christian tradition pre sixteenth century. So it seems many,
52:45
Speaker 3: most or all readers of sefrijos Upon understood the work
52:50
Speaker 3: to be a product of the first century and the
52:53
Speaker 3: writing of a first century author to be identified with
52:58
Speaker 3: the person we call flabyas josephiz And this is the
53:03
Speaker 3: way people looked about looked at it until the until
53:06
Speaker 3: the sixteenth century with Azariah de Rassi and a few
53:11
Speaker 3: other figures. And if listeners are interested, the authoritative work
53:16
Speaker 3: on this reception tradition is Saskia Donates's twenty thirteen book
53:22
Speaker 3: Uber le frungmund Reception des Sefrio Supan, and it's a
53:26
Speaker 3: spectacular study. She's done some important work since then, and
53:30
Speaker 3: a lot of that is picked up more recently in
53:33
Speaker 3: a book written by Nadiat Celdez in twenty twenty.
53:38
Speaker 1: So so then let me ask sort of a more
53:41
Speaker 1: general question on even so as you mentioned, it's it's
53:43
Speaker 1: used in various ways by the justraition, and in fact
53:46
Speaker 1: we've written in today, what is the sort of historical
53:50
Speaker 1: importance of the Book of Josipot In other words, you know,
53:53
Speaker 1: obviously we recognize that this author is rewriting. We write
53:57
Speaker 1: all the traditions from josiphas through through Latin Christendom than
54:00
Speaker 1: other works. So then today when we look at the
54:03
Speaker 1: Hebrew of Husband, what can we see what are the
54:06
Speaker 1: sort of historical nuggets that are useful from this work itself,
54:10
Speaker 1: you know, about Jewish life in the medieval period, or
54:14
Speaker 1: Hebrew writing or religious acknowledge. What is the historical value,
54:19
Speaker 1: let's say, of this book as it sits on our
54:21
Speaker 1: shelf today.
54:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a great question. I think there are
54:23
Speaker 3: a couple of different ways to answer it. I will
54:25
Speaker 3: note that sever Josupon has largely let's say, evaded or
54:30
Speaker 3: been excluded from the broader scholarly imagination because people did
54:34
Speaker 3: not recognize any sort of historical value in it. And
54:38
Speaker 3: this has to do with ways that historiography have been
54:41
Speaker 3: understood by modern scholars. So sefri Josupon has been called
54:43
Speaker 3: by some something like folk literature, and so because it's
54:47
Speaker 3: telling a much older story, and it's doing so in
54:49
Speaker 3: a way that's clearly sort of romanticized or something like that.
54:54
Speaker 3: Even a scholar like Amos Funkenstein, even someone like him,
54:58
Speaker 3: you Roushalmi in nineteen eighty two, in his famous book
55:01
Speaker 3: Zachora Jewish History and Jewish Memory, he doesn't count sefri
55:04
Speaker 3: jos Upon his history. It's it's like it's something else,
55:09
Speaker 3: and there there is some truth to that, to be honest, like,
55:13
Speaker 3: we don't read sefri jos Upon, So sefri Josupon's narrative
55:16
Speaker 3: goes from sort of prehistory down to let's say seventy
55:21
Speaker 3: four with Mesada. We don't look at sefrijos Upon to
55:26
Speaker 3: sort of fill in gaps in our knowledge of that history.
55:31
Speaker 3: Almost ever, there are some actually interesting exceptions to this,
55:34
Speaker 3: So Kenneth Atkinson in our twenty twenty four volume From
55:38
Speaker 3: Josephus to jose Upon and Beyond, which is open access
55:41
Speaker 3: by the way, Kenneth Atkinson in there he explores this
55:44
Speaker 3: datum from I think book thirty one books book thirty
55:48
Speaker 3: one or twenty nine something like that in sefri jos
55:50
Speaker 3: Upon and basically finds evidence that helps us read ancient
55:55
Speaker 3: history in sefri jos Upon that doesn't appear in earlier sources.
55:58
Speaker 3: But this is more the exception and then the rule.
56:01
Speaker 3: I would say, the big answer to that question is
56:04
Speaker 3: that sefrijos Upon it tells us about the language, It
56:07
Speaker 3: tells us about the historical understanding and maybe something of
56:10
Speaker 3: the sort of the self understanding of a Jewish author
56:15
Speaker 3: in early tenth century southern Italy. So when the author
56:19
Speaker 3: is making the expansions that he does. I assume, you know,
56:22
Speaker 3: male authorship. When the author is making the expansions that
56:25
Speaker 3: he does upon the basis of his Latin Christian sources
56:29
Speaker 3: or what have you, the nature of those expansions tells
56:34
Speaker 3: us something about the author's understanding of the Jewish tradition,
56:38
Speaker 3: which I argue tells us something further about how the
56:41
Speaker 3: author understands the Jewish people as a as a historical
56:45
Speaker 3: collective and as a historical collective that still exists at
56:49
Speaker 3: that time. And so I would say it contradicts narrative
56:53
Speaker 3: where the Jews are politically powerless, and certainly one that
57:00
Speaker 3: sees them as sort of I don't divinely abandoned or
57:06
Speaker 3: sacrilegious or something like that. But it sees the Jews
57:10
Speaker 3: as of people that uniquely inhabit this ongoing, living historical
57:14
Speaker 3: covenant with the God of the universe, the God that
57:16
Speaker 3: controls history. We also so in the Table of Nations
57:20
Speaker 3: at the beginning of it, we get some data about
57:25
Speaker 3: ethnonyms and toponyms about peoples and places of the time
57:30
Speaker 3: that appear to be accurate. For example, the Russi we
57:36
Speaker 3: might be translated something like Russians or proto Russians or
57:39
Speaker 3: something like that, are located at Kiev and are identified
57:43
Speaker 3: as Teutons, which appears to be correct. So we can learn,
57:47
Speaker 3: you know, we can learn a little bit about the
57:49
Speaker 3: time in that way when the author rewrites the story
57:52
Speaker 3: of the deaths of the Maccabean martyrs and the Maccabean
57:56
Speaker 3: Mother Martyr. The way that the sons respond to and
58:00
Speaker 3: Hiakus and his henchmen includes a decent amount more about
58:04
Speaker 3: the afterlife than what appears in the historic in the
58:08
Speaker 3: books of the Maccabees as we know them. And so
58:11
Speaker 3: the author of Cefrijos upon appears to have notions of heaven, hell,
58:17
Speaker 3: of reward and punishment post mortem that would be difficult
58:22
Speaker 3: to derive from the foregoing Jewish tradition, I think, as
58:28
Speaker 3: far as I know. So one more important example, if
58:31
Speaker 3: I may at the end of the book on top
58:34
Speaker 3: of Masada, as Josephus tells the narrative, of course, these
58:38
Speaker 3: nine hundred and sixty Jewish rebel holdouts under the leadership
58:42
Speaker 3: of Eliezer Bennier. After a long speech of his They're
58:46
Speaker 3: like it would be a shame to let the Romans
58:48
Speaker 3: kill us. It is much more pious for us to
58:50
Speaker 3: kill ourselves, because they're uncircumcised and we're holy. So they
58:55
Speaker 3: kill their wives and children, then they kill themselves, and
58:57
Speaker 3: the Romans finally break through the wall. Josephus tells us
58:59
Speaker 3: this book seven of the Jewish War, and the Romans
59:03
Speaker 3: are so impressed that they had the wherewithal to kill
59:05
Speaker 3: themselves in this way, and it's like, wow, look at
59:08
Speaker 3: these people. In Pseudo Hegesippus, in the late fourth century
59:13
Speaker 3: Christian Latin rewriting of it, the same thing happens, except
59:16
Speaker 3: the Roman soldiers are not impressed, and the very last
59:19
Speaker 3: thing we read, basically is that the Romans show up.
59:22
Speaker 3: All the Jews are dead the end, and so it's
59:25
Speaker 3: very anticlimactic. In sefrijosupon remarkably, the Judean rebels kill their
59:32
Speaker 3: wives and children, but then they go fight the Romans.
59:36
Speaker 3: They do not kill themselves, They die hacking down Roman
59:40
Speaker 3: soldiers like good warriors in battle. And so it's like
59:45
Speaker 3: this this monumental overturning of what apparently had been the
59:49
Speaker 3: sort of standard Masada narrative. And so in that narrative,
59:54
Speaker 3: I think you see something of the author's understanding values
1:00:00
Speaker 3: something like that.
1:00:01
Speaker 2: Fascinating.
1:00:02
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm afraid we have come to the close to
1:00:05
Speaker 1: the end of however you go. I'm want to ask
1:00:10
Speaker 1: one question, shame indeed, we better getting started. One one
1:00:14
Speaker 1: question I'd like to ask you, which I ask of
1:00:15
Speaker 1: any of my guests, which is something like this. If
1:00:18
Speaker 1: you could sit down tonight to dinner with the author
1:00:20
Speaker 1: of Yosipon this tenth century drew from Italy, and you
1:00:24
Speaker 1: could converse with him and ask him something, what would
1:00:27
Speaker 1: you be? What would you be asking him? What would
1:00:28
Speaker 1: be curious to know? What would you what subject you
1:00:31
Speaker 1: brought to them?
1:00:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this is gonna be kind of a
1:00:33
Speaker 3: lame answer, but I would. I would get a pan
1:00:35
Speaker 3: and pencil out and I would be like, all right,
1:00:36
Speaker 3: I want you to tell me what all chapters were
1:00:39
Speaker 3: in the version of this book that you wrote, because
1:00:43
Speaker 3: because like a temporary scholarship, we can't we can't totally tell.
1:00:46
Speaker 3: But no, honestly, I would Uh. I'm a scholar of antiquity,
1:00:51
Speaker 3: so coming into the early Middle Ages is like I
1:00:54
Speaker 3: get more uncomfortable every year I go beyond, like the
1:00:58
Speaker 3: fifth century, and so I would love to know what
1:01:02
Speaker 3: the author was reading and how we had access to it.
1:01:05
Speaker 3: I would say, where did you find these Latin texts?
1:01:07
Speaker 3: And where did you get the stories about Livy and Virgil?
1:01:09
Speaker 3: And like, you know what, what all texts did you use?
1:01:13
Speaker 3: Because we can only make sort of like partial and
1:01:15
Speaker 3: educated guesses of these questions, and you know, they'd be
1:01:20
Speaker 3: easy enough for the author to answer. I could come
1:01:22
Speaker 3: up with a list of one hundred questions though that
1:01:24
Speaker 3: I'd love to ask the author as well.
1:01:26
Speaker 2: Sort of.
1:01:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, basically you're saying that as a good historian, the
1:01:29
Speaker 1: first thing you'd ask him is what kind of historian
1:01:31
Speaker 1: are you? How do you do your your historian's work?
1:01:34
Speaker 1: Let me see your tools, that sort of business.
1:01:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe something like that. I mean, of course, yeah,
1:01:39
Speaker 3: I hope we talk about all sorts of things. We'd
1:01:41
Speaker 3: certainly talk about sort of like religion, theology, you know,
1:01:46
Speaker 3: these types of storytelling. You know, i'd get some tips
1:01:49
Speaker 3: tips about good writing if I could.
1:01:52
Speaker 1: So interesting Yeah, okay, professor at Cosson Bay, thank you
1:01:56
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today on the podcast of
1:01:57
Speaker 1: Jewish Ideas. This has been a pleasure and we look
1:02:00
Speaker 1: forward to your future writings on this topic.
1:02:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you JJ.
1:02:05
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1:02:07
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