Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Not an Accident: The Cheryl Keeton Murder

Transcript

Not an Accident: The Cheryl Keeton Murder · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Stranger still was the fact that the engine was still
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: on and the vehicle was still in gear. There was
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: no one in the driver's seat, but the vehicle itself
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: was pressing up against the median. The insistent gas pedal
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: held down by a purse. So somebody's purse is on
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: top of the gas pedal.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: It reminds me of like movies when they put the
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: dead body in the car and like put a rock
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: on the gas pedal, it goes off a cliff or something.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: You should say that because the similarities are very eerie.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Hi Cassie, Hi Caitlin, Hi creepy people. Hello, Hello, this
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: is PNW Hanson Homicides, where we shed about true crime,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the paranormal, and all things spooky in the Pacific Northwest
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: or the PNW. If you're nice, nicety, if you're nasty.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: We also do a Tiara reading at the end of
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: our topic.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Can we skip to that right? Yeah? Go too? I know,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: all right, I'm ready, I'm in my blanky, let's go.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I might fall asleep, We'll see.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I mean it's hardly a lullaby but
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: you know, lots of people fall asleep listening to true crime.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: That's true myself included. Yeah, keep your eyes on my eyes.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Late on the evening of September twenty first, nineteen eighty six,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Randall Blyton was traveling down Sunset Highway just outside Portland
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: when he noticed something strange.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I was trying to think of like strange things you
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: could see in Portland, and just like so many things
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: came to mind.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, part of me is did to
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: have you guess, but I'm gonna tell you right now,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and I just don't think that you could. I don't
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: think this would come up. It was a van that
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: was sat stopped in the left lane of the highway.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I mean strange, but not like unheard of, right, Yeah,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: The way that it was described in so much of
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: the source material was just so eerie. But at first
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: glance it looked like a routine accident scene. So Randall's
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: thinking maybe the driver had just lost control or even
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: pulled over after like some sort of a mechanical failure
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: or you know, some other type of car trouble. But
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: something inside the vehicle caught his attention. What appeared to
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: be a car seat. A father himself, he immediately instinctively
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: began searching the car, fearing grievous injury.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: For a child.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: What would obviously be a pretty precarious situation at this
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: point in the evening, because it was around eight thirty
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: in September, It's going to be very dark, so visibility
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: was not great, and his number one concern was that
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: this was going to cause like a major pile.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Up on the highway.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was already causing like a pretty significant backup
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: on the highway, but he was just worried that there
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: would be like a larger collision. Basically, he would discover,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: to his uneasy relief, that there was no infant. The
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: car seat was eerily and yet blessedly empty. I feel like,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: especially and you know, I can't speak to this myself,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: but I feel like as a parent in particular, there
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: must just sort of be this feeling of like, oh,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad there's not a baby in there, but
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: there is a car seat, and the fact that it's
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: empty just you know, that would.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Freak you out, Like where is it right?
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it feels like there should be a baby
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: or a toddler in the seat and just makes you
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable that it's empty. He described kind of searching around
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: the interior of the vehicle. It's pretty dark, but he
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that there's not a baby that's
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: like fallen onto the floor or somewhere else in the vehicle,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: so he did his due diligence there. Oh, I know,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: very very sweet man.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I'm always worried because I have a car seat in
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: my car for when I now but yeah, obviously I
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: don't have the kid all the time, but the car
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: seats in my car.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: So I'm like, what if I get into an accident
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: and like something and someone thinks, yeah, they're going to
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: think that.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: They're going to be searching for the kid. So I'm like,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: should I put like an unoccupied sign on it?
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: When he's not Honestly like, that's maybe not a bad idea,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Like that could be helpful to first responders. I hadn't
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: thought of that. But strangers still was the fact that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: the engine was still on and the vehicle was still
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: in gear. There was no one in the driver's seat,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: but the vehicle itself was pressing up against the median.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: The insistent gas pedal held down by a purse. So
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: somebody's purse is on top of the gas pedal. That's
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: so odd. Yes, yeah, it reminds me of like movies
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: when they put the dead body in the car and
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: like put a rock on the gas pedal, it goes
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: off a cliff or something.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you should say that because the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: similarities are very eerie. Though it was quite dark already,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: he quickly became aware of a copious amount of blood
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: in the vehicle. So again he had been kind of
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: on almost like his hands and knees searching around the
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: interior of this vehicle because he was concerned there might
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: be an infant that had become loosed.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: From the seat.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: I just, oh my gosh, it just like the idea
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of then realizing that your hands.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Were covered in blood just keeps getting worse.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and it doesn't. It just doesn't really get
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: a whole lot better. He would maneuver the vehicle off
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: the highway and onto the shoulder of nearby seventy ninth,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: a safer position to explore the vehicle more fully and
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: see if the person seemingly unconscious in the passenger seat
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: might need assistance or medical treatment. He tried questioning the passenger,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: but they remained unresponsive. He believed the passenger was likely
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: a woman, but their face was badly and very dramatically
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: wounded to the point of unrecognizability. Shit, he said, if
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: I had known this woman personally, and at that point
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: he's just assuming it's a woman truthfully, based on like
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: and wait and the shoes that they were wearing. He said,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: if I'd known her personally, I would not have recognized her.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Ah, that is so scary to see someone like that
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: mm hm.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: After engaging the emergency flashers and lighting flares, he went
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: to a nearby home and instructed the woman that answered
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: the door to call for help for a bad accident,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: stating that he was returning to the scene. So the
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: person that calls nine one one is under the impression
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: that this is a very bad vehicular accident because so
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: far as so far as our good samaritan knows at
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: this point, that's what he's encountering. Perhaps this description was
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: why when officers arrived they initially treated the scene as
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: a traffic accident, because of course they're getting their information
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: from dispatch until they get on the scene, and that's
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: the information the dispatch would have had to that point,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: but even in the darkness that had descended on the
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: highway that fall evening, it didn't take long to realize
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: that it was more likely something far more disturbing that
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: had occurred. Something about the scene felt wrong almost immediately.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Traffic collisions, leaf behind patterns, skid marks, vehicle damage, debris,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: all things that investigators can read like a story. In
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: this case, the evidence did not match the story of
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: a typical crash. Damage to the vehicle itself was relatively limited.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Two things stuck out nearly right away. For one, the
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: positioning of the vehicle raised questions because it's literally stopped
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: bumping up against the median in the left lane, so
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: it was like pretty much diagonal, like driving itself or
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: attempting to desperately drive itself into the median.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: This is why you don't let purses drive, just saying well, yeah, yeah,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: be careful, secure all of your belongings before.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Driving the vehicle, for sure. Secondly, the passenger's injuries did
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: not seem to align with what investigators would expect from
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: the type of vehicular crash suggested by the scene that
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: appeared suspicious at best or worse. They quietly pondered, perhaps
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: even staged. I think they immediately jumped to your theory
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: of like this is like when you kill somebody and
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: crash the car off the side of a cliff with
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: a brick on the gas pedal.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like something out of a movie. Honestly. Yeah,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: her face was so badly beaten, but like the wreck
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: wasn't that bad.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: This person at least one of their eyes was like bulging,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: and like that portion of like their rbidal socket was
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: just like so bruised and inflamed, and it had basically
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: like the size of it was just cartoonish.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Like man like a softball.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: So I don't know how you do that in a
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: car accident where the car sustains almost no damage. I
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: guess maybe it's not impossible, but it feels implausible.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: As medical examiners and detectives examined the evidence more closely,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: the conclusion became unavoidable. The passenger had indeed been brutally murdered.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: But on that night in nineteen eighty six, investigators didn't
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: yet know the story behind the woman found in that
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Toyota van. Her name was Cheryl Keaton. She was a
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: thirty six year old Portland attorney. Investigators desperately wanted to
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: understand what happened to Cheryl Keaton, to understand how the
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: life of a happy, success full working mother of three
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: had seemingly unraveled into something terrible and dark. Once the
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: death was determined to homicide, detectives began examining every aspect
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: of Cheryl's life, where she had been that day, who
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: she had spoken with, and who might have had reason
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: to harm her. Cheryl Keaton had built what many would
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: consider a very successful life. Intelligent, ambitious, and determined. She
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: had pursued a career in law and became a practicing
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: attorney in Portland after attending law school in Seattle. In
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: addition to her career, she had also welcomed three sons,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: who were the center of her life. But while Cheryl
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: was building a career in raising a family, her marriage
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: to Bradley Morris Cunningham was deteriorating. At first, brad Cunningham
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: could appear charming and personable. As time passed, tensions between
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: the two escalated. Financial pressures, personality conflicts, and issues of
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: control began to strain the relationship. Eventually, the marriage reached
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: a breaking point, and the couple began divorce proceedings. By
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, the divorce had become deeply contentious, particularly
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: because of the custody battle over their three children.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: The thing about this case is that, unfortunately, there are
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: so many ways that it mimics or like the details
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: align with other stories that we've talked about in a
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: way it's like none, no, two stories are exactly alike.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: But after a while you kind of start to see
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: where it's like there's also at the same time, these
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: scenarios are just they're never really all that unique either.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: It's like there's such a playbook of you.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Know how personal inflict and you know how some of
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: these things play out, and it's just it's heartbreaking.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: It's heartbreaking to see like the same patterns, especially when
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: you mentioned like a man who is controlling like that, right,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: it's not going to go well him right, getting things
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: taken from him.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: No, that's exactly exactly what it is. And the scary
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: thing for me, like when it really like starts to
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: just make my skin crawl is when.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: There are kids involved, because it's.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Another layer of you know, a relationship that maybe has
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: really turned sour if, if you know, maybe not necessarily abusive,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: although in this case it certainly was. It just adds
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: such a layer of complication and vulnerability for the person
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: who is trying desperately to like get out of the
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: clutches of this horrific person. Friends later said Cheryl had
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: begun worrying about what her estranged husband might do as
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the legal fight intensified. Cheryl, herself and those around her
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: had long feared that conflict would end in tragedy. Arguments
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: had become more frequent, and the custody battle had intensified
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: emotions on both sides. The ongoing divorce immediately drew investigator's attention.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: They began examining Cheryl's relationship with Brad Cunningham more closely
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: due to the violent nature of the death. And this
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: is something I.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Have never heard of.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Like, they know that she has died, and I think
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: at this point they very very strongly suspect that she
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was murdered. But keep in mind, like they have not
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: had time to process like a full autopsy, so it
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: hasn't officially been determined to homicide yet. So I have
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: never heard of this before. Four officers had been sent
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: to her estranged husband's home to deliver.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: The death notification.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: And I realized that if they think there's a you know,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: perhaps a potential or a propensity for, you know, there
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: to be some sort of conflict or especially if there's
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: you know, the opportunity for there to be violence, that
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: they're going to do everything they can to not only
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: protect themselves, but they're headed into just for context, into
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: an apartment building in Portland, and they have to think
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: about how, you know, they might need to maintain the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: safety of literally like his neighbors if something goes down.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: But I have never ever heard of a case.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Where they send four four officers for a death notification.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Wow, maybe they're like thinking of the kids too, which
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: is good. Yeah, I don't know if that unless they
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: knew where they were at that point or I'm not sure.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that they I think probably them was
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: that the children were likely with their father, as he
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: you know, presumably would be the custodial parent in that
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: moment if they're not with Cheryl. But I think it
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: it just says a lot that this very slight. I mean,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: she was down to like one hundred pounds. She was
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: very very fearful. At this point, she had dropped more weight,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: so she was down to like one hundred pounds. She
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: was a very like everything that I encountered said she
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: was a very slight woman, very like petite, and she
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: had dropped down to one hundred pounds because this whole
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: situation with their divorce, the custody battle, how fearful she
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: was of him, Like she just obviously was struggling. Wow
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: in a very serious way, Like people were saying, like,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: my god, she looks like gaunt. Like the part that
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: really got me about this was like to think about
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: this like tiny woman who actually like she has this
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: like you know, very high power career and probably.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: You know, can like kind of command.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Respect, you know it like in a courtroom type setting,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: in a legal setting. But to think that like that
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: is like the person that's facing up against this man
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that the police feel like they need to send for
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: adult grown ass man man says to go you know,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: like they're not even arresting him.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: It's such a trope.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: But it's like the husband did it, and they're like, well,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: we're going to go talk to the husband, So I
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: guess bring everybody like that just blew my mind. They
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: recalled him being remarkably unemotional, barely reacting in fact, other
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: than to suggest in a lone outburst that was it
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: perhaps a traffic accident that led to her death?
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Come on, man, way to like just give yourself away
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: for real?
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did it by chance look like a poorly staged
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: car accident. Still, in this initial conversation, they tried not
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to read too much into his lack of outward reaction,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: because everybody reacts to these situations differently, and obviously they're
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: actively going through a divorce, they are in a custody battle.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: You know, they were not on good terms, so perhaps
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: even more so than you know, even a situation where
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: you know it's a loved one that has passed away,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: it's like this is somebody that like currently he has
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: a very complicated relationship with. So they're trying not to
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: read too much into the fact that he's not getting
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: all emotional. But as we know, people may react in
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: myriad ways to a sudden death, but he didn't seem
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: even remotely surprised. That's the part that gets me, Like,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: you don't have to be emotional, but the fact that
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: it doesn't, like you don't have any sort of a
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: oh almost like he already knew.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Weird that she was deceased and somehow new it was
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: car related. Right. Yeah.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: I just think it's so funny because obviously there are
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: people that can get away with certain things to varying degrees.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: But and I love the term just because, on the
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: one hand, it kind of sounds so gross. But this
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: is what Chris has explained to me in interviewing.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: They call it behavioral leakage. That makes sense.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, So a lot of it is like stuff like
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: this is behavioral leakage. That's not like necessarily like on
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: a physiological level.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: But there are.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: Things that you might do that you don't even realize
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: you're doing, like tapping on a table or like you know,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: you're bouncing your leg underneath the table or.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Whatever it is. But I'm like, this is just so
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: that's the word for it.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I feel as detectives began piecing together the timeline of
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Cheryl's final hours, suspicion increasingly focused on her ex husband
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: or soon to be ex husband, I should say, her
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: current husband. I'll give you guys a moment, just let
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: the shock, let you absorb, you know.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I think we're as much as shocked as he was
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: that he when he found out his wife.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Died, right, Yeah, I think we are having a similar
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: emotional response.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but suspicion alone was not enough.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Investigators would need evidence strong enough to convince a jury
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt. What I think is really interesting here,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: and I don't talk about her much, even though there's
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: actually a good amount of information that I was able
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: to find about her, kind of her thoughts and feelings
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: at the time, sort of as these events were playing out.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: But Brad Cunningham had a girlfriend. I think some sources
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: describe her as fiance.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It really doesn't even matter. I believe
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: she was an.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Er doctor, so like he clearly likes to surround himself
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: with these very successful women. And the one time that
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: officially in my note she's going to come up is
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: a little bit later. But she really never suspected anything.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: She really believed him in this case, and she really
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: loved his children, and she really believed that he wanted
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: the best for them. To be fair, there's a lot
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: of information that she wasn't privy to. Necessarily, she's only
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: so close to this whole situation.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I really felt bad for her actually, because.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: She seemed like a very compassionate and smart, just I mean,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: a really nice woman, And I was just like, fuck,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: how did what do these fuckers find find us?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Ladies?
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, you.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Can be strong and and successful but still have like
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: that little bit of weakness maybe that they can sniff
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: out and just keep poking at. Yeah.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And you know the other thing is that a lot
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: of times the archetype of what you know what, Brad
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: is they wait until they got your ass tramped, and
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: that's when you see who they really are. As detectives
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: continued examining Cheryl's life, they began learning more about her
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: estranged husband, Bradley Morris Cunningham Ask Huntingham, Cuntingham.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that, thank you, Oh love that for us. Okay.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: When investigators look into a homicide involving intimate partners, one
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: of the first things they study is the history of
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: the relationship. They look for patterns, financial speeds, escalating arguments,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: custody conflicts, or controlling behavior, anything that might help explain motive.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: In Chryl Keaton's case, the deeper detectives dug into the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: couple's past, the more complicated.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: That picture became.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Not because it was unclear that Brad was a piece
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of shit just so that everybody's on the same page.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: It's just because of the particular type of shit that
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: he is. His particular brand of pos can make things
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: a little confusing at times. Part of that complexity came
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: from Brad himself. Years after the trial, he would write
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: extensively about his life and his version of events, attempting
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: to challenge the narrative that it developed around the case,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: particularly the one presented in the best selling true crime
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: book Dead by Sunset by Anne Rule. Ooh and rue,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: she rules, She rules, and Brad rules. Yeah really, I
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: actually I wasn't gonna pay for it, because that's just
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: not how I rolled. But I was able to access
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: a pretty sizable excerpt from his book, and Rule deconstructed whatever.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: In his own writing, he portrays himself as a highly
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: successful businessman and ambitious entrepreneur moving through the booming real
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: estate markets of the Pacific Northwest during the nineteen seventies
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and eighties. Was he you know, I don't care enough.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I don't care enough. Some of the stuff that he says,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: it makes no goddamn sense. The figures actively make no
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: fucking sense. Like he talked about having real estate holding
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and the number of zeros he assigned. I'm like, this
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: was the eighties. You're telling me you had nearly a
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: billion dollars in real estate holdings in the nineteen eighties.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's normal, but I'm.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Not saying it's impossible. I just don't fucking believe you,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: and I'm about to tell you why. According to Cunningham's account,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I almost said, Cuntingham, I.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Wish you would have.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: According to Cunningham's account, his story begins in Buryan, Washington,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: a small community just south of Seattle, where he was
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: born in October of nineteen forty eight.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: He describes himself as.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: An ambitious young man, drawn early toward business and finance.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: He attended the University of Washington, where he studied business
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: administration and played on the university's varsity football team. Okay,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: so I do also, uh, I believe he does actually
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: have a business degree from you dub. It's funny because
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: he does intersperse so many like I shouldn't say so many.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: There are certain facts that he intersperses with, just like
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: what if on the surface, I want to dismiss a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: lot of things as just being lies. But then I
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: was like, and you'll see, I'm about to tell you
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: about my very exciting experiment trying to prove him wrong
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: on something. And I guess technically I can't definitively you'll see,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: But what the fuck. It's just so annoying. I fucking
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: hate people that just lie about shit, Like you told
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: someone else that I also know something completely different. Did
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: you think we were never going to talk about this? Like, yeah,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it's such it's so obvious that you lied to one
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: of us.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I just want to rip his face off.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I think people just lie and like don't even they
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: just don't even think about it. Yeah, they're just so confident,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: like like, don't have another thought in their brain besides
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: what they're saying at the moment. It's fucking maddening. I can't.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I just I simply can't.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: One moment he highlights in his autobiography involves a game
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: in which he claims to have tackled O. J. Simpson Okay,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: who at the time was already becoming one of the
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: most famous running backs in college football.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I tackled that guy.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So here's the thing, though, Okay, Brad frames
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: the moment as a highlight of his athletic career in
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: college and part of the early promise he believed defined
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: his life. You DUB and USC did play in the era, okay, okay,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: roughly nineteen sixty seven nineteen sixty eight, and O. J.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Simpson won the Heisman in nineteen sixty eight while playing
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: for you, So if not only possible, it's very probable
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that someone on the UDUB football team tackled Oj. Interestingly, though,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: for the years nineteen sixty six to nineteen seventy, Brad's
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: name does not appear in UW's well documented football rosters. Weird,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I know, I know so much about college football rosters.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Now, I mean, that's the string I wanted you to pull.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: My Honestly, I didn't see this playing out this way,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: but now I have to tell you, okay, and it's
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: in my notes. So I took the time you could
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: take the time.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: That is kind of funny, though.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I searched beyond the suggested years of nineteen sixty seven
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty eight, because why not, right, maybe he's
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: remembering that piece wrong, like maybe it was nineteen sixty nine.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: But like I said, no, dice, maybe he was a
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: JV player. I had a thought because I was like, right, JV,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: that's junior varsity. Maybe he said varsity but he was
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: really JV. He's trying to pump himself up. But I
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: learned that the University of Washington, as a Division One team,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: does not maintain a separate junior varsity or JV football
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: team roster, as is standard for most major college football programs. Instead,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: they use a single, comprehensive roster, including freshmen, red shirts,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: and developmental players. However, in the late nineteen sixties, the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: University of Washington still fielded a separate freshman team, often
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: called the Husky Pups. Oh C online digital records for
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: the Husky Pups are scarce compared to the main roster.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: But honestly, I think it's fair to say the that
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: is just a motherfucking liar. Yeah, he doesn't appear on
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the roster.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: He could have been a Husky Pop. Is that what
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: you're saying could have been? Seems unlikely, but definitely not farsay. Yeah.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Also, I feel like it would be kind of funny
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: if somehow in my research I had come across that like, oh,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: he did for sure tackle OJ on the field when
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: he was at you dub, he just wasn't doing it
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: in his capacity as a football player, Like he just
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: stormed the field like those people that go running around new.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Was he the Was he a mascot? Maybe?
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: I you know, I didn't find anything to support that,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: but what are you gonna do?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I was also thinking like if you had said he
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: was on the roster, like maybe someone else, Yeah, tackled
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: him and they did like the pile on and he
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: was like the last guy, Like, right, he just hopped on.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: I caught him. Come, I caught him. Nailed it.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: He also claims that he was contacted by the Dallas Cowboys,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: who allegedly offered him a position on their special teams
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: On their special teams.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, special teams is like you're not actually like you're
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: not going.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: To the super Bowl.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Typically, I don't know a lot about football, and I
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: exhausted my ability to learn more about football with that
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: last passage. So, uh, that's as far as we're going
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: to go on that.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: But okay.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: According to Brad, the offer included an annual salary of
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: around fifty thousand dollars, which was actually a considerable income
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: at the time. Presumably he declined the opportunity claim. I mean,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: he was already earning comparable money working in property management
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: and believed his future in business would ultimately be more
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: lucrative than one in the arena of.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Athletics because he didn't actually play football.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I feel like that's a fair I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: love that you picked up on that, but also I
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: feel like for most people that's true. Even if you
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: do get drafted a lot of times, it's like, you know,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: the smartest guys out there are making choices that are
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: going to set them up for life after football, you know,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: after professional sports, whatever it is. He didn't even want
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to get started in professional sports. He's like Nay, and
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the Dallas Cowboys back then, like you want to I
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: feel like, oh, that was primo.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I don't know, but I'm just going
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: by what you're saying.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: The Dallas Cowboys, I don't think in that era were like, oh,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: they went to the Super Bowl like every year or
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: something like that.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: The height of their success as.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: A team, you know, in the last fifty years, to
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: my knowledge, was in the mid to late seventies. So
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: but if you had come on, you know, with them
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: as nineteen seventy is dawning, like I don't know, but
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: either way it would have been special teams and you're
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: not going to the super Bowl anyways. I just love
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: that even his like made up, fabricated bullshit dreams and.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Stuff are still like just a little bit shy of.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Like not only making sense, but like it's like, Okay,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: cool story, bro.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: You know it's like believable because it's not too much.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still not believable though it's still not like
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: it's really not. I don't know anything about football, and
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: like the context of already understanding that, like he kind
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: of seems like a liar. That was a help to
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: me because yeah, don't I don't understand the sportsing ball,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: go sports, Yeah, go sports instead. Cunningham describes focusing his
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: career on real estate finance. He portrays himself as operating
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: primarily as a mortgage broker and mortgage banker in the
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Seattle and Bellevue areas, structuring loans and financing investment properties
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: during a period when the Pacific Northwest property market was
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: rapidly expanding.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: So I don't know.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Maybe he did at some point have nearly a billion
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: dollars in real estate holdings. Hould my hair back while
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: I vomit, Like I don't believe.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: I just don't believe it.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: In his own telling, those ventures were enormously successful. Of course,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Cunningham claims that over roughly twenty years, he helped finance
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: more than and here it is the nine hundred million
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: dollars in income properties across the Pacific Northwest and Houston.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Area of Texas.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: I guess technically he's not even saying that those are
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: his holdings, but just that he was involved in those dealings.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Either way, I just kind of am like I don't care, Brad,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: like I don't care.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Also, there again, it's like he did nine hundred million,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: not a billion, so like in his yeah, it's a
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: little more believable.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just like, come on, Brad, if you're just
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: gonna so obviously lie about so many things, like at
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: least go big or go home, you know, Like I
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: feel like I could respect.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: That more in a way.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know, he's just trash. It's I'm never gonna
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: like him.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: I really want to know, like what he would say
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: his dick size was, Oh boy, you know, it's funny
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: you bring that up like one inch above average.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, he would be like it's a solid five
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: point seventy five inches or some shit like, oh boy.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: At one point, he says he and Cheryl held more
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: than a million dollars in certificates of deposit at First
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Interstate Bank and Seattle. He further asserts that even excluding
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Cheryl's income as an attorney, the couple generated more than
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: a million dollars per year through a mix of cash
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: flow investments and equity holdings, which I don't know. In
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, I don't know. It just seems I don't know.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I don't believe you. I don't trust you,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and I don't like you. So whatever. These claims form
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: a central part of the image Brad Cunningham constructs in
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: his own writing that of a self made financial success
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: moving comfortably through the high energy real estate culture of
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest during that era. After completing his undergraduate degree,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: he also pursued graduate studies, enrolling in a master's program
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: in econo at Portland State University. So very loch Da
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: of him, and he really did those things I am
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: given to understand that he really did enroll in the
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: master's program at PSU. Yeah, all right, you know I
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: didn't call PSU. I don't know that they would even
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: be willing to verify that.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: But give me the receipt, give me as transcripts.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: But his personal life was just as complicated as his
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: professional one. Before his relationship with Cheryl Keaton, Brad had
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: previously been married. His first marriage was to a woman
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: named Marilyn, which I think is a pseudonym used in
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Anne Rule's book. Doesn't really matter. Whom he married while
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: still a junior at the University of Washington. The couple
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: had two children together, a daughter and a son actually
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: named Brad Junior. Because of course, that marriage eventually ended,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: and he would later enter into other relationships before eventually
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: meeting Cheryl. I guess I could have stopped reading it,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: but I had to read this, So I'm going to.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Give you like the elevator pitch.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Version of it, because my god, this man is. I
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: cannot tell you how unhinged his book reads. Just the
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: section that I was able to access for free. It
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: is truly spectacular.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: In the worst way possible.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: One of the most extensive portions of Cunningham's autobiography focuses
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: on a woman he identifies as Joan, whom he says
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: he dated for roughly four to five years. According to
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: his autobiographical account in the ebook, he lived with Joan
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: in the Beaux Arts Village, an affluent residential enclave in Bellevue, Washington.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: She worked as a teacher at Ivanhoe Elementary School, teaching
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: second and third grade students.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Which is why it feels a little.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Unsettling to read about how he describes her and how
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: much he describes so so much.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: It is truly unseemly.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: He devotes long passages to describing their life together, portraying
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: it as glamorous, socially adventurous, and at times openly hedonistic. Okay,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: so they like allegedly just went to a bunch of orgies,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: organistic orange you glad I came. Oh okay, I know
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: it works two ways.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: He recounts frequent parties, travel and gatherings that he characterizes
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: as sexually permissive social environments, basically orgies and key parties,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: which is super cool if that's a thing that you
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: want to participate in, and that part's fine. What I
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: feel like as role Icky is that number one, he's
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: a liar, so I have to wonder how much of
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: it he's making up. And number two, I just don't
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: understand why when you are talking about deconstructing and Rule's
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: book about the murder of your wife, that this features
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: so prominently.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is weird. It is upsetting. It's literally and
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: maybe he's thinking.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's it's my autobiography, So I have to tell
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: everything that happened in my life.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Everything that I wanted to happen in my life. To
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: make it real, I have to write it down. Yeah.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be some manifesting. Yeah, yeah, it could
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: be that. So the orgies and all of the details
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: which he specifically claims to mention only briefly and to
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: not go into graphic detail, but which occupy a surprisingly
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: large portion of his narrative. Those passages are revealing not
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: necessarily because of the events themselves, because I could give
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: a shit who or when or why or how many
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: people you fuck, but because of the way he chooses
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: to present them. His writing frequently lingers on physical descriptions
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: and lifestyle details, constructing a very particular image of himself
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: and the world he believed he inhabited. The amount of
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: time he spent talking about this woman's nipples.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Ungodly, truly truly, truly offensive.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean the amount of time he spent
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: describing her physical appearance overall, truly, just.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Like he does say all of.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: These other things about her, like how she's like the
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: most intelligent and well traveled woman that he's ever been with.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: And she was I guess, like fourteen years his senior,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: so she was older than him, a very sophisticated lady, seemingly,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: But my god, why do we need to know so much.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: About her nipples?
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Apparently she was a dead ringer, a doppelganger for Alyssa
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Milano in The Charmed Days.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Of course she was. Yeah, oh boy.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: He actually includes an illustrative image that I assume is
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: like a screenshot from porn or something to show you
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: what he's talking about with her nipples. I just because
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: the description of them isn't enough. Yeah, it's just too much.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: I just I feel like the Lady Doth protests too much.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: How much can you say about nipples? I thought this
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: was all about taking down and rule. The title of
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: the book is Anne Rule Deconstructed. Do you think Anne
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Rule spent this much time talking about this woman's nipples?
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine that she did, okay, because I feel
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: like you went on a really long time about the nibbles. Well,
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: it made me so mad.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: I was like, what the fuck is this guy talking about?
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: And he talks about he goes on and on about
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the orgies in the like, and he specifically says how
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want to go into graphic detail and how
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: he's not going to and and oh I didn't. I
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: like really like I summarized it. I gave you the
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: cliff Notes version, and I was like, I feel like,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like you've said so so much. It's just
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: I can't believe that's possibly true, Like wow, Like what.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Why did I need to know any of this? How
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: is this helpful?
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Context? Also for like the task at hand, which.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Is deconstructing and Rule.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: But autobiographical accounts written by criminal defendants are always complicated sources.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: They often reveal as much about how the author wishes
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: to be perceived as they do about objective history facts.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: I would argue more, maybe more, it reveals more about
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: him and what he wants people to think about. Him
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: than it does about objective historical facts. But that's just
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: maybe that's just me.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: For investigators examining the murder of Cheryl Keaton, the question
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: was not how Brad Cunningham described himself in his own narrative,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: because who gives a flying fuck. The question was whether
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: the evidence surrounding Cheryl's death would ultimately tell a very
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: different story, and spoiler alert, I feel like they have
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: very different stories. Once Cheryl's death was classified as a homicide,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: detectives began reconstructing her final day. They interviewed co workers, friends,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: and family members, reviewed phone calls and statements, and compared
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: those details against Brad Cunningham's account of his own activities
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: that night. Clear that Cheryl was fearful for her life
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: and perhaps even her children's lives. Brad's own relatives told
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: authorities that he hated women like in a very classic
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: in cell controlling asshole way. Detectives continued to look for
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: gaps in the timeline contradictions, the smallest of instances where
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: statements did not match what other witnesses had described. Cheryl's brother,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Jim Carr, had been living with her and the boys
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: for about three months prior to the murder, which had
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: alleviated some of the fear that she and her family
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: felt about what lengths Brad might go to. I will
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: say that Jim, I can't imagine how guilty he must
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: feel for things that are absolutely outside of his control
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: and not his fault.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: And I will also say that, as.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Kind of one of the first people to be notified
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: of her death, as he reached out to their family,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: no one was surprised. And unfortunately, and I'll have to
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: tie this in, but even prior to actually receiving the
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: death notification, because of the circumstances of that night, his
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: hackles were already up, as were those of some of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: the family that he immediately reached out to with concerns.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: So the fact that like they were like, we knew
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: this would happen, and to not have received confirmation, but
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: to just already know that your worst fears are playing out,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: I can't fucking imagine it, because there's.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Really like nothing you can do. There's nothing you could
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: have done. No, like you can't just like tie her
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: up and hold her hostage in your house, you know
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: what I mean?
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: No, No, Teeter, she did nothing wrong. They did wrong, Like,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: the only person that did something wrong is a spoiler alert,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: it was Brad. The night she died, Cheryl had left
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: a note behind for her brother about meeting Brad to
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: pick up the boys, because this was a Sunday and
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Brad should have been returning the boys to her by
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: seven pm that evening, and she would get almost frantic
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: when they deviated from the custody arrangements. Well, yeah, Brad
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: supposedly had some car trouble that evening and the pickup
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: location that she described in the note was a gas
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: station that her brother knew full well was not in
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: operation at the time. It was basically it was abandoned.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: I think it recently, Like the shop was closed, so
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: it seemed like an odd meeting spot, especially if you
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: just had car trouble. You'd think you would want to
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: go someplace where the business wasn't closed. He was like,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: it would make more sense if they went to like
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: a service station that was open, because maybe he needs
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: something for the car. But that made him nervous immediately,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: and he had actually reached out to their mother based
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: on the note that Cheryl left about meeting Brad. She said,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: I told her do not do that do not go
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: to meet him, and she said, I know she's dead,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: but like.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: The kids, I can understand like a mom doing whatever
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: they need to do because they're worried about their children.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Of course, I will meet you anywhere.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Give me back my babies. And it's a public place,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: you said, an abandoned please.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like this service station had recently gone
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: like out of business. So what a creepy place to
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: ask someone to meet you seriously, and her brother, like
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: I said, immediately, he was like that's not good. And
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: this poor guy, like what.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Is he supposed to do? You know.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: The part that was like heartbreaking about this is on
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: this particular evening, like if her kids were home, he
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: very rarely like went out late at night. Keeping in
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: mind that her vehicle was discovered on the side of
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: the highway around eight thirty pm, so not even that late,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: even for a Sunday night. Eight thirty is not crazy
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: late in the evening. It was significantly later than the
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: agreed upon seven pm pickup time for them to change
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: hands of you know, custody of the boys. But like,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: it's not like he was out until midnight. And even
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: if he was, like he's a young man, he should
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: be able to, you know, have a life, right, But
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: he had gone out with his girlfriend, and he was like,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: the whole reason why I felt okay about doing that
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: was because you know, I'd been staying there. She seemed
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: like she was starting to feel more comfortable. She felt
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: safer with me there with the boys, and I knew
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: that it was Brad's time and they wouldn't be home
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: until later. So I went out that night thinking like,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Brad has the boys, like she's fine when you know
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: they get handed back off, like no big deal. I
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: think it made her more nervous to be alone in
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: their home with the kids. There is the impression that
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I have because she was worried about her safety. But
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: I feel like, as a mom, especially you know, someone
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: who has concerns about maybe even the safety of your
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: own kids, like it's bad enough that something could happen
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: to you, but the idea that like something could happen
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: to you and your kids is just like a bridge
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: too far. So he thought like this is a good time,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: you know, everything should be good. It's just made me
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: want to cry because I could think about like if
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: this were my brother, he would just literally probably never
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: stop beating himself up over something like this, even though
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: like objectively, there's just nothing that he did wrong and
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: the fault is completely someone else's.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: But it's like, because it's like literally insane for someone
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: to kill somebody else, Like it's not a normal thing.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: As much as you might be like worried about them
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: doing something or think right should or not be surprised afterwards,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: you're not like they're actually going to do that, because
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: it's yeah crazy, I mean, you're at.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Least hopeful that's never going to happen, And the fact
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: that you know it did and the way that you
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: know it's happened is just it's awful. And he has
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: no reason to feel bad. I just know that, Like
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: survivor's guilt in these type of instances, it's like that's
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: so hard to overcome. Like I know why he would
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: feel bad. I would have those same feelings. In the
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: years after Cheryl's death, investigators continued gathering information, reviewing evidence,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: and revisiting the circumstances surrounding the night she was found
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: dead in her van along the Sunset Highway. But while
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: the criminal investigation moved slowly, another legal battle began to unfold.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety one, Cheryl's estate filed a civil wrongful
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: death lawsuit against Brad Cunningham. Civil cases operate under a
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: different legal standard than criminal trials. In a criminal case,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: prosecutors must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I think
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: we're all hopefully familiar with that principle at this point.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: That pesky little law I know.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: In civil court, however, jurors must decide whether a defendant
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: is responsible based on a preponderance of the evidence, essentially
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: whether it is more likely than not that the defendant.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Caused the death. It's like the person. Yes, it's like
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: a forty nine fifty one, like in the zoo thing
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: what we talked about. I remember that, Nat, You've never
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: seen this before.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: During the civil trial, jurors heard many of the same
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: details investigators had been examining for years, the bitter divorce,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: the custody fight over the couple's children, the financial disputes,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: and the circumstances surrounding Cheryl's death. After hearing the evidence,
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: the civil jury reached a decisive conclusion. They found Brad
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Cunningham responsible for Cheryl Keaton's death and awarded Cheryl's estate,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: a truly massive wrongful death verdict and award like a
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: like a roll serious amount of moolah.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Was it nine hundred million dollars?
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: It wasn't, but it wasn't the millions. Nice. They'll never
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: see a scent of it, as is often the case,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: that's how this plays out, but we get something, I think,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: in a way even better. The decision was significant not
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: only because of the financial judgment, which is kind of whatever,
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: You're never going to see that money, but because it
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: publicly established that a jury believed Brad Cunningham was responsible
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: for Sheryl Keaton's killing. That verdict brought renewed attention to
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: the case and helped shift the momentum of the investigation
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: because they're like, oh shit, it's a different burden of
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: proof with the civil case, right, But if these people
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: believe it, we just have to give them enough and
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: then we can get a criminal prosecution case together and
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: a conviction on.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: An actual case, convict that cunting Ham.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: For years, the case had existed in frustrating gray area,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: strong suspicions but not yet enough evidence for prosecutors to
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: move forward with criminal charges. The civil verdict helped change
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: that investigators and prosecutors took another look at the evidence
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: that had accumulated over the years. Eventually, they concluded that
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: the case had reached a turning point. After nearly a
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: decade of investigation, prosecutors believed they had finally assembled enough
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: evidence to bring the case to a criminal trial. Nearly
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: a decade after Cheryl Keaton's death, the case finally reached
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: the courtroom. Brad's girlfriend at the time, Fancy Pans doctor, who.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: I truly do feel bad for, paid.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: The retainer for not just his lawyer, but also as
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: separate attorney to represent the children, which was a major
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: priority to Brad. So he wanted somebody that was looking
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: out for the best interests of his children allegedly, and
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I think it was simply a miscalculation on his part.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: And here's why he was enraged when he learned the
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: children were allowed to speak with law enforcement with the
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: detectives and their counsel received an earful once he was
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: made aware again, you've hired an attorney to look out
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: for their best interests. Their mother was murdered, and you
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: are certainly a person of interest, sir, and they are
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: a key component of your alibi for that evening. Yeah,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: how exactly did you think that law enforcement wasn't going
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: to speak to them?
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: I wonder if he thought, like the attorney would like
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: tell them what to say or like speak for them
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: as I wonder if that's why he wanted an attorney
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: for them. I don't know.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Interesting, I'm glad they got to talk. Holy shit, you're
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: gonna be so glad. You're gonna be so fucking glad.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: The prosecution argued that Cheryl's death had not been an accident,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: but a murder disguised this one. They presented evidence about
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: the nature of Cheryl's injuries, which were numerous and fucking horrific.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: She was literally beaten to death, and also who was
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: driving the car if she was in the passenger seat, Like,
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: where's that person in this whole scenario?
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, mm hmm, yeah, begs the question, doesn't it that?
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: Right? There?
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Is already so fucking suspicious, Like you did not think
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: this through. And they also presented evidence about the circumstances
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: surrounding the crash, such as the fact that the ambiguous, anonymous,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: unknown driver of Cheryl's vehicle.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Who couldn't have it was the purse convict. The purse right,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: it was a ghost.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: It doesn't even make any fucking sense. You're so stupid,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: You're so bad at life and crime, You're so bad
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: at being bad.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't want you to be better. I don't.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: I don't wish that on any of us, but like
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: it's kind of it's sad and a little insulting to
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: all of our intelligence. They also emphasized the escalating conflict
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: between Cheryl and Brad during the divorce and custody battle
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: that was like, really, really really key to their case. Interestingly,
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: not surprisingly, psychiatrists testified that Brad was both paranoid and antisocial,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: as well as a narcissistic sociopath mic drop. Yeah, they
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: were like, is that did we do it?
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Is he and jail yet? I feel like you just
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: need the evidence of the book that he wrote, or
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: the auto autobiography that he wrote.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, autobiography really, Like, I don't know, I don't know
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: if it's ethical to use that in a political capacity
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: to diagnose him, but it feels like, I don't know. Man.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: The couple's son, Jesse, also testified, So it kind of
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: makes sense once you know how everything went down, why
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: Brad got so fucking upset that they talked to the
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: kids because the couple's son, Jesse, testified as a young boy,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: his memory of events, including critical details, was truly astonishing.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: He didn't have all of the right mouth words for
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: certain things. He recalled watching the Sword into Stone with
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: one of his brothers, while Brad claimed to have been
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: doing chores around the house and in their apartment building.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: Both Brad and his brother, one of his you know babies,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: not his like adult man brother, were gone long enough
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: for the movie to have finished while they were still gone. Wow,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: so two of Brad and Cheryl's children watched a movie
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: while they were presumably doing chores and errands, and it finished.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: And the legal team that like walked him through all
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: of this, and I'm assuming maybe there were you know,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: some consultants there that, like, you know, a child psychologist,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: the way that they walked him through, and like his
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: memory was so vivid and detailed, but like, if you
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: dismissed him outright because he's a child and like he
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't know all the right words to say, like this
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: could have gone very differently. But they said, well, how
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: did you know that the movie finished? Because you know,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: children are easily distracted, and he said, well, and this
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: is They were using a VCR and if you don't
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: know what that is, I'm sorry. You have the Google machine,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: You're just gonna have to figure it out yourself. They
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: were watching this movie and at the end he didn't
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: know how to rewind it, so it went to the
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: fuzzy screen. Yeah, he said, it went to the fuzzy screen,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to fix it, so we
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: just turned it off and then he went into another room.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: After that, Jesse recalled then also watching Rambo while his
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: father remained away from their apartment. The legal team worked
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: carefully to communicate on his level to parse out the
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: incredible level, level of depth of his memory that evening.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: As a juror, it had to seem just like a
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: complete fucking torpedo to Brad's alibi of having been home
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: with the boys that evening at the time of Cheryl's death.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I can't recall off the top my head how old
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: this child was, but I will say I got really
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: nervous in the book.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, how old is he?
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Because they said Jesse was asked, well, what day was
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: that was that Saturday? And he said I don't know
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: the days, like he didn't know days of the week.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: What they did was they literally drew out a diagram. Okay,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: so these days you go to school, right, and we
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: don't have to know anything about Monday through Friday. That's fine, okay.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: And this day you go to.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: Soccer and on these days you see your daddy, and
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: these are the weekends.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't leading.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: It was just meeting him where he was at in
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: terms of like language skills, and it.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: Just, yeah, that's so smart.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, he's so little. He doesn't really like
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: understand Saturday or Sunday. And I'm like, oh, kids, someday
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: they're gonna be so critical to you. You can't even
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: imagine his younger brother that was supposedly out running errands
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: and doing chores with Brad. My understanding is they never
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: really could get him to talk about the events of
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: that evening with anyone. It sounds like he was younger.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I believe he was only like four years old, and
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: he would hide under the table when they tried to
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: talk to him, and he cried a lot. I don't
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: know if they've ever determined, you know, in later years,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: what he might have seen or understood about the events
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: of that evening. But like suffice to say, he was
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: not going to be useful as a witness. I'm not
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: an expert, but it seems like clearly whatever he went
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: through or was still going through because he had lost
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: his mom, Like, this kid was so traumatized and it's
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: such a tender age at.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Four, like his brain might not even like let him
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: remember that. Yeah.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: I just I feel like at certain ages, and depending
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: on the kid, there are just things that like even
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: if you saw or heard, I'm not sure that your
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: brain will always let you like recall those memories. And
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: you just know you don't want to talk about it.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: And it's scary and it's sad. Poor baby, I know,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: And I really, I mean, I hope for his sake
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: that like he's just upset because he doesn't have his mommy,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: and you know, who are these people and why are
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: they asking me these questions?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: But okay, I'm not crying. You're crying. I don't know
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: why you always say that, crying to thank you for
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: this not a holiday week?
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: I know. Wait, it's all, oh yeah, it is a holiday.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: Oh the song of my people? How come you get
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: the defense counter that the prosecution's case relied too heavily
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: on speculation and circumstantial evidence without a direct eyewitness to
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: the crime. They argued the evidence was insufficient to prove
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, which I would say, the
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: testimony of your own goddamn kid, I think pretty much
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: wiped out any doubt that I had, But that's just me.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: Witnesses testified about the couple's relationship, and investigators explained how
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: the case had developed, and there were a lot of
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: people that touched.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: On this case.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: Hearing the accounts of people that reported to the scene
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: that was a rough, rough discovery. Experts discussed the evidence
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: surrounding the crash scene. Ultimately, the jury was asked to
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: weigh the prosecution's narrative against the defense's claims of reasonable doubt.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: After deliberations, the jury returned its verdict. Bradley Morris Cunningham
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: was found guilty of murder.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Thank god.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know what I would have done if I'm
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: I probably I don't know if I would have come
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: across this case if he hadn't been convicted.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: Who knows. You scared me though, for a minute by
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: saying what you said about the circumstantial evidence.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: I think the prosecution team was a little bit fearful
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: and ment I mean they went to bat for this,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: and having the testimony of a child be such like
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: a that's like a heavy hitter in this case, Like
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: that's got to be a little bit nerve wracking. It
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: went against Brad's alibi and that was that was the
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: critical strike. Following the verdict, Brad Cunningham was admitted to
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: the Oregon State Penitentiary on January ninth, nineteen ninety five,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: where he began serving a life sentence. Cheryl Keaton was
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: a lawyer, a mother, and a woman whose life ended
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: far too soon. She was laid to rest at Bunker
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: Hill Cemetery in Cowlitz County, Washington. And it breaks my
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: heart and I hate to do this right at the end,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: but there's not a better place to put this in
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: terms of linear storytelling. So some final sad details that
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: serve as a reminder to all of us perhaps to
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: have our affairs in order, because everyone's final wishes should
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: be respected. Cheryl wanted to be cremated, but the retelling
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: is that one of her paternal aunts raised a fuss
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: because they were Southern Baptists, and they don't cremate people.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: So she was buried her aunt. Yep, what do you
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: would say to you, how over someone's life.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: I honestly, I can't believe it.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: She was also apparently.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Buried in a very garish like bright like a pink coffin,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: and her immediate family knew that she would have hated that.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: She didn't want to be buried in the first place,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: but it was a ridiculous recept to go for her
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: final resting place.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: I don't understand.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: Things are always rough when it's family. But her mother, however,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: put her foot down about a viewing, knowing that Cheryl
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: would not have wanted that, I think, particularly based on
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: how she died. And you know, they can do a
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: lot of really incredible things, but a viewing just would
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: have been.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: Really really hard.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, really really difficult in this case, and it actually
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: gets worse.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: It's crazy that we just talked about this, I mean,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: like off air, but we talked about like how traumatic, Yeah,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: like a viewing can be, especially a child who's like
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: forced to go look.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like this is so much like in
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: a way, like there's no good way for somebody to
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: die and people all process that grief differently, and I
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: feel like you can try to fight it, but I
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: feel like, I think you just have to make your
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: peace with the fact that it's just it's gonna it's
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: gonna fuck you up a little bit for a minute.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: But sadly Brad and the boys did not attend Cheryl's funeral.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking. And of course he had a ridiculous excuse
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: about not being informed by the family, and he said,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: you know, besides, the cemetery was just so difficult to find.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: But he didn't know about it, but he tried to
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: find the cemetery.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, get your fucking story straight. And of
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: course this was long before you know, the civil and
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: then eventual criminal proceedings, So it's like, what what could
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: they do.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: That is so telling, Like, oh, I wasn't aware of
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: this funeral, but I couldn't find the cemetery.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: He's just such a fucking pathological player. And I don't know,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, they may it sound like the way that
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: he said it was like maybe he had attended a
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: funeral there and just already knew, like, oh, this place
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: is just so hard to find. It's just like you
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: found it once.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: Before, Yeah, but even exactly.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: But even if that were the case, it's like, Okay,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: well clearly you had at some point, you know, found
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: it before.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: So I don't know what to tell you. But the children,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: as well as.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: Cheryl and her family certainly deserved better. But true to
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: the psychiatrist's assessments, Brad really was just a selfish liar
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: from start to finish to some people, like funerals don't
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: carry the same meaning as other people. But I can't
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: even imagine having that choice taken away from me and
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: by the person that took her.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: Oh wait for me, Like, I feel like it was
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: probably important for the kids to be there, and he just.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Wanted to pull the wole over everyone's eyes, but like,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: especially there, even though he knew that it wasn't a
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: traffic accident, he told them. He told the kids that
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: what it was.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: That's what it was.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Wow, Which is another thing that's like so telling is
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: like you asked if it was a traffic accident and
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: then you tell your kids that after law enforcement tells
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: you know, that's not what it was. Like you really
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: do have to be a sociopath a narcissist because you're
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: not thinking.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: About what that does to your kids. Yeah, because then
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: they're going to have to find out later like that
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: that's not what happened. And you know, my dad lied
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: to me. And even if he didn't have anything, even
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: if he wasn't conrested.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, even if he wasn't the person that killed her,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: that's just so hurtful. And I know that, Like it's
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: tough to find, you know, the age appropriate words to
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: explain things to kids sometimes, but like that's just lying,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: You're just lying.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: Should we try to bust out the taro real quick? Yeah,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: let's do some tero. I did have one more thing
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: to say about her. She's on the other side, and
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: I hope she doesn't, like really care about how she
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: was buried and stuff, you know, like, I hope she's
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: just at peace with whatever happened down there, And.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: You know what, to be honest, I would be haunting
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: the shit out of that an. I was wanting peace
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: for her soul, Caitlin, I know, but you know what,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: you can have peace within your own soul but not
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: wish for it for other people.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: I think I think I can.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: I think I contain magnitudes and I think that I
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: can hold space for being at peace within myself, but
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: also wishing you the fucking worst.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Wow. What deck are you using? PNW? You know it
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: the nasty PNW? Oh did you have a popper? I did?
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: And you know what's weird is it didn't like pop
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: out and fly away. It just like as I was like,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you call that folding the deck
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: back in, it like popped out to where all of
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: the other ones were, like the backside of the card.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: That one flipped just flipped itself within the refolding deck
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: with the image side out.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: I mean to me, that's saying something I think.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: So, okay, I'm gonna give her one more shift. Okay,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: I'm a sprey this one I am. And then let's
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: talk about what section of the deck we're feeling. So
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: I have the deck running like the length of my keyboard.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: So do you want me to just run my fingers
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: along and we can.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: Do about five point seven five inches in to the left.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, so from my left yeah? Oh shit, Okay, well
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: this is where everyone realizes that I'm a little less
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: certain about what five point seventy five inches.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: And get a ruler. Yeah, okay, I'm going with my gun.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, what is it?
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: I think this might be the first time we've gotten
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: this card. Really the tower, oh, the tower, I mean
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: there's a bagel. I'm g real looking tree here.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: I was like, what is that? I can't even tell
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: the tree a redwood, it looks like it.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, since it's a new card, I think to us,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: I will look in the Little Book and the like, Look.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: I don't recall ever getting this.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: I don't think so, which you would think, just based
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: on vibes.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: You would think like the obvious things would pop up more.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: But because it's because they're so obvious, like they don't like.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: The death card means like change, we talk about it,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: excitele and tower card is like complete upheaval of your life.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: But like ultimately for the better is how I feel
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: about it. But yeah, yeah, it could have other meanings.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to read from the Little Book and
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: then I'll go to our main interpretation. Good.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: I love these little interpretations. They're so poetic. I do too.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: This is a Douglas fir Oh Okay, I was wrong. Crisis, destruction, ruin, chaos, collapse, trauma, devastation,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: sudden change, trauma. A spark catches, and the tinder dry
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: forest flares up like a matchhead. A wave of heat
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: and fleeing wildlife precedes the spread.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: It's a tree on fire. That's why I thought it
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: looked red to me.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: The way that the image looks to me is that
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: it's a tree kind of in the foreground of an
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: approaching fire.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: Oh ooh that imagery too.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, that makes it even harder to see. And I
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: will say symbolically it makes that much more sense for
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: this case.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like you said, like everyone kind of
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: saw it coming, but maybe it was like blocked out
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: by what they I don't know, wanted to see instead.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can see something coming, but it's like
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: at the same time, especially, I feel like in the eighties,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: it's like there just were not as many laws enacted
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: to protect women and children in these instances. And it's
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: already it's so tricky, it's so messy when you're going
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: through a divorce and you're going through, you.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: Know, a custody battle.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: It's just so unfortunate because it is so foreseeable in
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: this case, but also like it feels like so out
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: of anyone's control at the same time. Yeah, because of that, Okay, Nests,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: dens and roosts burn, Millions of homes are engulfed, Millions
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: of lives, plant and animal are sacrificed in fire. Nothing
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: will be the same after the cataclysm, but destruction doesn't
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: mean conclusion. Life returns after a fire in time, and
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: sometimes a towering giant even survives the burn. They carry
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: the scars and twist around the damage, but they keep growing.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Just reminds me of everyone who is left behind, the
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: children and the family.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: Well, and specifically when it transitions to talking about nests dens,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: it's like that is like the language around that very
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: specifically refers to, you know, the young. The tower keywords
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: are change, freedom, upsets, destruction of the old.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: The tower usually depicts a fortress.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: Like structure, some to those remaining from medieval times in
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: parts of Europe, being destroyed by fire or lightning. In
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: some decks, the tower's crown is being blown off by
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: the fiery impact. The blast catapults human figures out of
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: the windows, like the Death Card and the Devil. The
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: tower tends to engender fear when it comes up in
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: a reading. However, the tower does not necessarily represent ruin
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: and devastation, although its appearance usually does Harald's swift and
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: dramatic change, sometimes shocking and extremely upsetting change. Many people
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: interpret the tower as signifying catastrophe, but whatever disruption or
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: destruction it heralds is ultimately for the best.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: Or maybe not. Sometimes in this case, if you're drawing,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: like I feel like if you're drawing after the fact
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: and you already kind of know what happened.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Part of me thinks that maybe even Cheryl herself would
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: interpret things as like having worked out for the best
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: in a way because in the end, like he's behind
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: bars and he can't do this to another woman as
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: he almost certainly would, Yeah, and their children are protected
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: from him.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean I can't.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: I can't speak to this from you know, personal experience, really,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: but I have to imagine that as a mom, it's
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: like good, like my kids are safe, and like in
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: the end, it's it's kind of like, you know, like
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: that's that's what would have been perhaps most important to her,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, everything that I understand about who she was
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: as a as a person and as a mom. If
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: you can't engineer a better outcome like that, that is
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: the best that you know that you can hope for,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: is that you know it ends here.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting too that you said like the crown
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: is being destroyed and like her face was beaten.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: When this card appears, it usually means you've ignored or
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: denied something that's rotten and needs to be blown apart.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: You're probably surprised, but you shouldn't be. You knew changes
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: were necessary, but you refuse to take action. Then something happens,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: losing a job, the end of a relationship, an accident,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: a financial setback that forces you to face reality big time.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: Your life is collapsing around you, but that old, worn
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: out structure had to go. The tower demands you free
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: yourself from the self created fortress in which you've imprisoned yourself.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: In the wake of the chaos, a new order can grow.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: In a reading about money, this card heralds a major
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: change in your finances. I will say, Bradley's finances look
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: very different now, right, and perhaps you, from your attachment
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: to wealth, status, possessions, and the related responsibilities, he got
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: cut off. If the reading is about your work, the
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: tower may represent a sudden job loss or change in
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: your workplace. Yes, you're shocked and feel the rug's been
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: pulled out from under you. But this may be exactly
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: what you need to escape the walls that trapped you.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: In a reading about love, this card suggests you need
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: to overthrow false ideas, old habit patterns, and outdated ways
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: of relating to a partner, Like do you by chance
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: hate women and as a result treat them like abject trash?
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: A breakup or major change in a relationship is necessary
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: an eminent wominent. I feel like it's really interesting that
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: it talks about very specifically, like you knew changes were necessary,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: but you refuse to take action, Like.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: You knew what you were doing was wrong, like Brad new.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as much as anyone like Brad can know or care,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: arguably you know, maybe he can't. But like, even if
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: you don't understand, like ethically, morally, or like have an
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: emotional connection to why what you're doing is wrong, you
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: can't understand that it's legally wrong. It's so funny to
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: me how someone who is a narcissist and clearly thinks
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: the world of themselves can be so stupid and do
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: such stupid things, such evil things, in such a stupid way.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: That like you are literally your own downfall.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: You're your own tower card.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the vibe, like, yeah, you lit the
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: match that started this fire, and I hope you.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: Burn the imagery too. Of fire is just like a
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: It's what you think of when someone is like angry,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: like hot headed, like impulsive. Absolutely, what was the other card?
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: I'm curious? It was the Five of Swords.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: Damn What can I say? When it picks up the vibe,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: It picks up the goddamn vibe. Keywords are change, adjustment, loss, destruction, conflict, indecision,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: and sadness. The Five of Swords symbolizes the devastation of
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: war and recommends using diplomacy to resolve problems.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and sod to murdery.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: After a battle, Finger Bunnies, you realize fighting isn't the
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: best way to settle disputes. The cost of winning may
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: not be worth the losses you've endured. In a reading
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: about money, this card represents disputes over money, perhaps in
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: illegal matter. It also warns that even if you quote
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: unquote win, you may suffer. Try to resolve differences without
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: drawing swords. In a reading about love, this card says
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: you won't get what you want by arguing hurtful words
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: can be taken back. Try to resolve problems amicably, honestly
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: and fairly. You may have to make some changes in
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: order to improve a situation. I mean, you know what,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: no takesia back seats in this situation either.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: I just feel like all of these shitty dudes like
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: need well sometimes shitty women too, but like they all
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: needed a tarot reading before they did what they did
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: to be like, look, it's not going to work out
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: good for you.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, or you could just watch some
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: forensic files and they could tell you, you know, Like.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: I just I'm like, nobody is going to tell you
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: that this is, you know, a good idea. Have a
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: creepyst day. Well, see you next Thursday. Unless you're cunting
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: Ham convict, not counting Ham. We need a gavel sound
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: honestly though, gosh, I don't know why.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: I just suddenly was looking around me like do I
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: have a hammer. I'm like the same thing, right.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean kind of. No, just be careful where
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: you're hammering.