Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Legally Brunette: Discussing “The Cornell 7” with Dr. Hillary Goldsher

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Legally Brunette: Discussing “The Cornell 7” with Dr. Hillary Goldsher · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673. Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: your host today, Emily Simpson with... Shane.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So over the past few weeks, one story has definitely
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: dominated news feeds, social media platforms, and created some extremely
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: important discourse. Today, we're going to talk about the Cornell 7. Also,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I just want to just make sure that everyone out
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: there knows that this case is evolving rapidly. We are
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: only working with the information that has currently been made public.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: You know, I've been trying to follow this in real time,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: and I actually pulled up a the lawsuit that she
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: filed against Cornell. And I read that it was about
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: 101 pages, but really the bulk of it was probably,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: I'd say like 10 pages. But anyway, every time I
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: feel like I have a handle on this case and
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I understand the timeline and I understand what's going on.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: And I, I have kind of a clear picture. As
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: soon as I open a newsfeed, by the way, which
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: is Instagram, it's just, it's rapidly changing. There's so much
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: more information that keeps coming out. There's text messages that
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: come out and then there's, the title nine information with Cornell.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: And then this morning when I was at the gym,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: there's now a phone recording.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: It's because there's so many people, right? There's just like
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: an insane amount of individuals involved in the crime one
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: way or another.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Right. When you have seven alleged crime, anyway, co-defendants, and
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: then you have text messages and then you have voicemails
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: and now you have all this information. Then you have,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: her roommates that talked to her the next day who
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: have now there's information about those conversations. Anyway, so just
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: to reiterate, we're just going to work with what we
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: know so far. This case involves allegations as seven former
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Cornell University students sexually assaulted a classmate at a fraternity
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: house in the fall of 2024. Nearly two years later,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: the case is back in the spotlight. There is a
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: civil lawsuit, a district attorney reopening the investigation, and there
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: are calls for an independent review of how the university
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: responded and a flood of commentary from celebrities, influencers, and
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: online sleuths. Today, we're not here to deliver a verdict.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: What we want to do is step back and look
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: at the human and institutional side of this story. How
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: do universities respond when something like this is reported? And
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: why do those responses often fail the people involved? What
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: happens inside groups like fraternities that shapes how individuals behave?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: To help us look at this case through a psychological lens,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: we are going to be joined today by Dr. Hilary Goldsher.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Goldsher is a clinical psychologist, executive coach, and organizational consultant
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: who has spent her career examining human behavior and how
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: organizations actually work. When we're analyzing how these institutions handle crisis,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: accountability and harm, these are the important conversations that need
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: to be had. Also, I would like to discuss with Dr. Golcher,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: I think it's very important to also understand how to
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: have discussions with our younger children. And I think that's important.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: You know, I took Annabelle to cheer the other day,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: we were in the car together, we're in the car
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: for about an hour on the way to her cheer.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And she was asking me questions about the Cornell seven,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: because obviously, She saw something about it on TikTok and
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: everybody's making videos about it.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: And you're like, we're doing a podcast. You can just
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: listen to it tomorrow.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Annabelle, just listen to Legally Brunette. But no, she's 13.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: And I would like to ask Dr. Goldsher, what is
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the appropriate response?
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: How to navigate through this story.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: How to navigate through it. Also, because I am raising men,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: we have twin boys, I would like to have a
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: conversation with my sons as well. But I want to
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: make sure that it's age appropriate and what information do
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: they need to know? How do I talk to them
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: about it? And how do I make sure that I
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: am raising boys that do not behave like those boys did?
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: Well, and more so identify and report.
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I want my sons to be the ones that call
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: 911 or stop it. or stand up? And how do
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I make sure that we're raising men like that? All right.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: So let's welcome Dr. Goldsher to Legally Brunette.
• 4:24
  Speaker 5: Hi there. Thanks for having me.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for being here today. Let's start with some statistics.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So according to rain.org, in a 2018 paper on college
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: party culture, law enforcement agencies documented one reported rape every
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: 20 days for victims aged 17 to 24. These college
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: age victims accounted for about one third of all rapes
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: reported to law enforcement. So it looks as if sexual
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: violence on college campuses has been studied for decades, yet
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: it keeps happening. What is something that contributes to the
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: belief that men think it's okay that they can simply
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: get away with it? Do you have thoughts on colleges
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: and this culture?
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: It's such a complex question, and there are a number
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: of things that come to mind. One of the things
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: I think it's important to not only talk about, but
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: to combat as a society and as parents is this
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: notion of what's technically called pluralistic thinking, pluralistic silence. And
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: what this is, is a phenomenon where everyone privately has
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: concerns about an event that is happening, but no one
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: speaks up because they assume everyone else is fine with it.
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: And this collective silence, this like tacit agreement to stay
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: silent creates the illusion of collective agreement. I think it's
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: more commonly known as like peer pressure and group think,
• 5:51
  Speaker 5: but it's not only a dialogue about how do our
• 5:55
  Speaker 5: kids not become one of the seven. It's a dialogue
• 5:57
  Speaker 5: about how our kids don't become one of the 50.
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  Speaker 5: And this is one of the phenomenons is people stay silent,
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: because of the assumption that everyone else thinks it's okay. Furthermore,
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: if folks that are witnessing or have doubts about whether
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: or not they should intervene, they don't have the resources
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: or tools about how to do so.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: What would you say those resources or tools are? Because
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I was talking about, so I have a 13 year
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: old daughter and then I have 11 year old boys.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: And I actually wanted to have a conversation with my 11-year-olds,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: but I want to make sure that it's age appropriate.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So what do you think is a conversation that parents
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: should be having with their kids?
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: I also have an 11-year-old boy and an 8-year-old boy.
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: And this is something I think about deeply in light
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: of this scenario. And generally speaking, I think it is
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: important to have the thematic discussion around stepping in when
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: something is wrong, when your belly or your tummy or
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: your mind or the lessons you've been taught from mama
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: or dad or the family or your teachers are in question,
• 7:03
  Speaker 5: to know what to do when that happens. Some of
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: the dialogue I've had with families that I work with
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  Speaker 5: who have kids in this age range is like, I
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: don't want to get involved. I don't know what to do.
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: I don't want people to turn on me. There's an
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: understanding at some level that what's going on isn't right, obviously.
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: But there is a fear around intervening. I'm not excusing
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: or justifying the lack of intervention. I think we have
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: a collective societal disappointment and confusion around why this is happening.
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: But we really need to ask ourselves, why are otherwise
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: good kids having such a hard time stepping in and
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: doing the right thing? There's a systemic issue going on
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: that we need to think about. Going back to your question,
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: sitting down with your kids, sitting on the floor with
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: them and talking about like, we have a lot of
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: conversations about right and wrong. We have a lot of
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: conversations about if something's going on, we don't want you
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: to get involved, but we don't have that many conversations.
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  Speaker 5: Like if you're a witness, if you see your friends
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  Speaker 5: doing something, if you see people on the playground or
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: in your classroom doing something wrong, what happens inside of you?
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  Speaker 5: What are the thoughts that you have? What do you
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: think about doing? What gets in the way of you
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: doing those things? What gets What contributes to the possibility
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: that you would do things? To really play out with
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: them all the feelings in an unformed mind. I mean,
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: our brains don't develop until age 25. Again, no excuse,
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: no justification.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: It's just true.
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  Speaker 5: And so they may not intuitively be able to have
• 8:34
  Speaker 5: the executive functioning to figure out what do I do
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: when I'm confronted with a scenario that puts me into
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  Speaker 5: fight or flight or gets my system activated? I'm afraid
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: of being ostracized. What are my options? And talking them
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: through the literal solutions. If they have ideas, great. If not, well,
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: let me give you a list of what to do.
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  Speaker 5: The first thing you do is you walk away. You
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: say something like, oh, I'm not allowed to do this.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, this is for younger kids. And you tell
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: a trusted other. And you can let your littler kids know,
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  Speaker 5: and really kids in college age as well, I, as
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: the safe adult in your world, can help make this anonymous.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: I just need the information to a trusted adult or
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: a trusted adult so we can make use of it
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: so people can be protected. So kids don't feel like
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: the entire scenario rests on their shoulders. I have said
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: to my children, if you can eke out something doesn't
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: feel good inside of you, I got it from there.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. So you would suggest not having a conversation that
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: has specific details about this case and you would suggest
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: having conversations with children of that age more in a
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: general global idea of if something doesn't feel correct, if
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: something feels wrong, if you feel like there's something going
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: on that's making you sad or upset, or you know
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: that you're grappling with right from wrong, that your first
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: step is to remove yourself from it. And then your
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: second step is to tell a trusted adult. Is that
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: kind of the breakdown of what you were saying?
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: Yes and no. I think this scenario is so awful
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: and so horrifying. And as you were reading the statistics
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: at the top, But for whatever sets of reasons, it's
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: coming to the public consciousness, hopefully in a different way.
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: I think we need to do more and take on
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: a greater risk profile. So to answer your question, do
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: I think some version of a conversation with our younger
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: kids should happen around the arena and the topic of this?
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: Add it with my own children. And I, uh, shifted
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: the words to not discuss specifically rape and sexual material,
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: but instead talked about the dynamic between boys and girls,
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: men and women, and men potentially wanting to touch or
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: be in contact with women when they are not in
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: a position to say yes or no, or they specifically
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: say no. And that it is our and their responsibility
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: to make sure that they're taking care of girls or
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: women if they're using their voice or they're in a
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: compromised situation. So there is a way to have a
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: conversation that's like, something's happening in the news and I
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: want to share it with you, but to not provide
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: details that would be confusing or shattering to a young kid,
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: but rather put it in language that they can access.
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: We still want to talk to our children and our
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: young boys about the responsibility of making sure that women
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: don't feel uncomfortable or threatened around the groupthink related.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: To young boys or men.
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: And we can talk about words, we can talk about touches,
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: we can talk about unwanted contact with kids that are
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: as little as 8, 10, 12, and I think we should.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Let's just get back to the actual case. Now, I
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: know there's been so much going on out there and
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: that I've read as far as, I guess you would
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: call it discrepancies between when she first wrote down, you know,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: her six page report for the Cornell Police Department. And
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: then that was basically the original DA decided not to
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: proceed forward with like a criminal investigation because of what
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: she wrote in her six page. I've read excerpts of it,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: but I've never read the whole document in its entirety.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And then obviously later, you know, we get to her
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: civil lawsuit that she files against Cornell University. And I
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: have read that document And there's, there's maybe more detail
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: or different details in that. So then, you know, you
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: see things that people saying, well, she just, you know,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: she was embarrassed, her reputation was being ruined. So now
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: she's changing her story. From my perspective, as a female,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I think What I take away from that is maybe
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: she was in shock at first. Maybe she didn't even
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: realize what was happening was illegal or criminal. Maybe she
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: had to go through it. Maybe she had to talk
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: about it. Maybe she had to talk about it with friends.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Maybe she had to think about it. Anyway, obviously, I'm
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: not a psychologist. You are. So what is your takeaway
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: from the difference in what she was saying in the
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: beginning and then what she says in her actual civil complaint?
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: Well, you're right on track. And I want to make
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: what I'm about to say really clear. This is not
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: only predictable, but expected. It doesn't happen with every victim,
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: but often, more often than not, victims for a variety
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: of reasons suppress their experience, both because of the trauma itself.
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: There's something called a trauma response. A trauma response can
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: take the form of many different symptoms. One of them
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: is suppressing, exiling the experience because of shame, because of embarrassment,
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: or because of the nervous system's reaction, which is fight, flight,
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: or freeze. And freeze can happen in the moment, and
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: freeze can happen the day after, and the month after,
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: and the year after. And so this is a speculation,
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: but I imagine there was a combination of deep-rooted shame
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: that somehow she co-created this scenario and, quote, deserved it,
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: and also an unfolding of the trauma related to it.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: Perhaps there was a narrative in her mind that, that
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: I'm okay. I can recover on my own. It would
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: be too embarrassing, too publicly shaming to bring this to light.
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: And so I can handle it myself. Over time, I
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: imagine the symptoms continued to seep through and she began
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: to be compromised in terms of her mental health functioning,
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: in terms of her physical functioning, psychological functioning, spiritual functioning, again,
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: a speculation. But when you go through this type of
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: trauma and and there isn't justice, there isn't a safe
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: place to discuss and have it processed, symptoms start to
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: occur and exacerbate. So I imagine there was a pool
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: of reasons that had her pause and mitigate. And I
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: am on behalf of victims, you know, in quotes, pleased
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: that she is now able to collect a sense of
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: what her experience was and seek justice and hopefully seek
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: support along the way.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Um, also we were, there's a lot of conversation about
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: consent as far as I do know that I believe
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: even in her, um, her complaint and maybe in the,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: in her initial report, she does talk about how, when
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: she arrived at the frat house that evening that she
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: had already had, I believe like 10 drinks or something
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: to that point. So there's conversation that has to do
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: with consent. What's your take on, on the consent aspect
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: of it? Um, I know that's, there's a lot of legal, um,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: take away from consent as far as where does the
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: consent begin? Where does it end? Can you initially give
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: consent and then through the evening, the consent changes? What's
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: your thoughts on the consent part of it?
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I really want to make this as crystal clear
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: as possible. This isn't a hypothesis. You give consent and
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: then change your mind.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: You can give consent and then change your mind. And
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: if someone doesn't listen to your change in a decision,
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: That is illegal. And I really want two things to happen. One,
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: the responsibility is most certainly not on women solely, but
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: I want it to be understood and more in the
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: dialogue that one can say yes and then change their
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: mind and can stand behind that with confidence. You can
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: say out loud, at the beginning, I was okay. Now
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: I'm not. I want it to stop. That isn't a problem.
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: That isn't a bad thing. I can imagine that would
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: feel embarrassing and shameful and awkward and perhaps put you
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: up for social embarrassment. But from an ethical, legal, moral standpoint,
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: you're absolutely able and empowered to say yes and then
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: say no. It sounds like it's possible that happened in
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: this scenario. Again, this is just trickled out information and
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: All of this is going to be determined at some
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: point in a court of law. But if what is
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: being distributed is true, that there was some version of
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: consent at the beginning, and at some point later, she
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: attempted to communicate that her mind had changed or didn't
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: actively consent to the additional sexual contact, that is the
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: makings of a criminal act. If one is saying no,
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: it means no, no matter what they said the moment before. Agreed.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Also, you know, I was talking before you came on,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I also have a 13 year old daughter who is
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: on social media, and she likes to look at TikTok
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: and things like that. And obviously, this case is all
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: over TikTok. I was wondering as from your perspective, because
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: we talked about how to talk to boys, and what
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: to say to them. What is your take on the
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: conversations around a female, a young female? I mean, my
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: daughter's 13. But obviously, we're talking about you know, young
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: teenage girls, girls that are about to go to college,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: maybe girls that have just entered college. What is the
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: conversation that we should be having with them in regards
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: to this case and how to keep themselves safe, how
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: to be clear about consent? You know, just from a
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: perspective of Legally Brunette and many of the cases that
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: we've done, we've had so many cases where it involves
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: college students students, college girls getting hurt, murdered, because that's
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: what we're talking about, true crime on this podcast. And
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I've always said that we need to make sure that
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: college girls that are out there traveling on campus, that
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: they're traveling in groups, that they never break away, that
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: they're not alone.
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: It needs to be diversified because the discussion that is
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: more common from parents to their young girls in particular
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: is about protecting oneself in the which of course is
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: part of the conversation that must be had. Travel in groups,
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: don't drink too much, call me if you get in trouble,
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: all the things. However, the conversation around, well, what happens
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: if you don't do that? What happens if you do
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: drink too much? What happens if you do go somewhere alone?
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: What happens if you're hanging out with a boy and
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: you end up at the frat house, right? What happens
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: if you don't listen to our original advice and end
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: up in a compromise scenario? And I think oftentimes parents...
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: You don't want to say the thing out loud that
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: you don't want them to do. You feel like if
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: you say it, that means they're more likely to do it.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Like you're condoning it if you talk about it too much.
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: That's right. The language I like to use is like
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: two things are true. The first thing that's true is like,
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: here are all the safety considerations I want you to remember,
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: like your name, all the things you just talked about.
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: Never travel alone, never go alone to a frat house,
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: all the things. Here's the second thing that's true. Now
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: I want to talk about if you do. I don't
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: want you to, but if it happens, because guess what?
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: All of us make mistakes. All of us are learning.
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: This is a dynamic environment you're exploring. things for the
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: first time alone. Having said that, if you do, here
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: are the things I want you to know. And the
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: things I want you to know are along the lines
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: of what you and I were just talking about, which
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: is that you can always withdraw consent. Always. And you should,
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: and you should do it loudly and in an empowered manner.
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: And if that isn't being listened to, you should yell
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: out loud, call for help, right? And that if and
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: when this happens and unfolds and it feels weird and embarrassing,
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: I got you. We will together work to make it okay.
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: But you can always protect yourself. It's never too late.
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: And being able to talk about what to do if
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: you're stuck, that they can always call you to arrange
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: someone to come pick them up, that there are always
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: options to get out and how you would deal with
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: the social embarrassment of it. Because let's be honest, part
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: of the calculation kids are making is like, if I
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: do something here, and this is on both sides, the
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: boys who didn't intervene, part of their conscious or unconscious
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: calculation is like, if I do something here, if I intervene,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: if I'm the one who says, no, this isn't cool,
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: what is the emotional and social price I'm going to pay?
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: So are girls. If I say, no, I changed my mind.
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: Let me out of here. What's going on? What is
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: the emotional and social cost I'm going to pay? And
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: they're not wrong. They may pay a social cost. Maybe
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: the group rejects them now. Maybe the boys don't want
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: to date her, right? And we need to talk to
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: our kids about that. You're afraid there might be a
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: social cost.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: Let's talk about that. There may be a social cost.
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: And what does that mean? And how do you cope
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: with that? And how do we talk about it? And
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: how do you pivot to a friend group that's safer?
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: And how do you mourn that occurrence if you are
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: rejected because you did the right thing, because you didn't
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: protect yourself? How do you handle that?
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: That will feel bad. That will feel like a version
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: of a crisis. That will feel like a really unwanted transition.
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: But I got you. The family has you. We will
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: help you figure it out. We will help you and
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: support you find a new friend group. We will remove
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: you from the scenario if we need to. But you
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: must do the right thing on behalf of yourself or
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: on behalf of another potential victim. So I think that's
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: where the conversation hasn't been as robust, not because there's
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: parents that aren't incredibly well-meaning, but because thinking through the
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: entire scenario is painful, but we have to go all
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: the way there to the moment of decision or the
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: moment of crisis and help our kids think through it. Again,
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: brain's not fully developed until 25. Maybe they don't exactly
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: have the executive functioning to think through, how is this
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: going to feel on the other side?
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: I did read several times, I'm not sure exactly where,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: but that she did want to leave Cornell. And that's
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: what we were just talking about, how you were saying
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: you want to remove yourself from the situation. Well, she
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: wanted to remove herself from the situation completely. I'm sure
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: that everyone was talking about it. Everyone knew who she was.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the conversation took off. I'm sure there were
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: so many added details to what even occurred that night.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I'm sure she felt as if she couldn't even walk
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: around campus without being ridiculed, stared at, talked about. And
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: then the fact that she probably did have a conversation
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: with her parents and did want to leave Cornell and
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: wanted to go back to her hometown and probably needed
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: therapy and needed to regroup and that they wouldn't let her. Well,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, she could have left. It's not like they
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: made her, you know, stay there. But the fact that
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: they wouldn't return her tuition money, you know, I really
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: that really bothers me that Cornell wasn't more behind her.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: What's your takeaway?
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: I find it inexcusable, unacceptable and shocking. there is no question.
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: I can't even believe we're having this conversation, but there's
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: no question that the school should have done anything and
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: everything they could to support this family and the aftermath,
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: including relieving the financial burden of the dilemma you're describing.
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: There's a reality component to it. We can say all
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: the right words and the right phrases. Oh, it will
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: build resilience and people will write essays and there's a
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: way to move forward and all the things. But this
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: isn't a theoretical trauma. This is an incredibly If what
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: is being alleged occurred, that is a gang rape. And
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: so if this family needed to leave to go heal,
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: they should be supported in every way they possibly can.
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: And it's incredible that that didn't happen. And it makes
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: sense to me. I'm not saying this is the only trajectory,
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: but it makes sense to me that the Jane Doe,
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: a Jane Doe in this scenario would need to restart.
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: go underground and get the support and love of her
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: family and clinical intervention and all the things and staying
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: on campus where the crisis and trauma occurred could be
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: contraindicated to say the least.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on fraternities? I've had so many
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: people I've had this conversation with and they're just like,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: we should just shut them down. Like they, They shouldn't
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: be on campus. It just breeds this type of behavior
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: with this criminal activity and the sexual activity and the
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: statistics that we talked about earlier. Why do colleges continue
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: to support it? What are your thoughts on that before
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: we go?
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was just reading something this morning. I just
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: did like a cursory review, but something around that there
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: had been allegations of various fraternities at Cornell not following
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: the rules around underage drinking and holding events and parties
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: in which they were serving alcohol, et cetera, and the
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: university not following through with their stated protocol, which is
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: to investigate, put them on probation and at times shut
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: them down for three years if they're violating the protocol.
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: And instead it looks like they adjusted the protocol. All
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: this to say, part of this is systemic, right? Universities
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: that have fraternities don't do a good job often or
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: any job often to execute and implement the rules of engagement.
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: And so fraternities often are engaged in, not all, I
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: want to make sure I'm clear on this, not all,
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: but often are engaged in systemic organized hazing and lots
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: of activities that result in underage people being served alcohol
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: illegally and don't do anything. And part of that is
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: based in finances and money and a version of popularity,
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: if you will, because if a school removes fraternities or
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: they're less fun, so to speak, then perhaps they're not
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: as popular in all the ways. So I think part
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: of it is a systemic issue that the schools need
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: to do a much better job of monitoring. And then
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: speaking as it relates to the fraternities themselves, there has
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: to be a much larger standard around moral and ethical
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: protocols that each fraternity takes on in a much more
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: serious manner. the lack of it and the ongoing issues
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: around underage drinking, hazing, and sexual aggression against women certainly
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: suggests that a greater conversation needs to be had around
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: how campuses can monitor and how the fraternities themselves show
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: up when behavior violates their stated objectives and goals. So
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: I don't fall on a super black and white, like
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: they all should be shut down, but I I think
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: the discussion has to not just be philosophical, but get
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: really aggressive in terms of how they're monitored on a
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: macro level and how fraternities show up on a micro level.
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: What is happening at Cornell should change the conversation in
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: a way that it never has been.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's all of our greatest wish.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: You know, it's almost as if this just popped into
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: my mind while you were talking, but in order for
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: them to keep their charters or to have their charters,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it should just be, you know, basic
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: education that they have to take courses before they're allowed
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: to operate and they have to do continuing education. They
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: have to have these topics talked about, about, you know,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the statistics of sexual abuse and alcohol and, um, I
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, that was just a thought that
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: popped into my mind.
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: As you're talking, I'm like co-creating something in my mind. Right.
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: Like they do that. And then they have to appear
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: before like the college board once or twice a year
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: to show their compliance and review their behavior. And if
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: there are any violations that there's an automatic protocol, there's
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: such a, an environment of allowance, of facilitation. It is
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: ubiquitous and sort of like not talked about. Everyone sort
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: of understands that universities do a lot to keep their
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: fraternities going and being a source of like fun and
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: a draw to the universities. And it's just, I mean,
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: this isn't new news, but what I hope is, news
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: is that this is so in the collective consciousness of
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: everybody right now, which is horrifying in terms of the
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: event itself, but I'm hoping it shifts something. We as
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: a society cannot let this go. And it's at the
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: micro level in terms of how we talk to our
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: sons and daughters, and then it's at the system level
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: in terms of deeply exploring what should be shifted and
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: how to sustain it.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Just one last question. What is the psychological effect on
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: sexual assault survivors who are watching Jane Doe's story unfold,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: especially for those women out there that never actually came
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: forward and never actually reported anything? Is there some positive shift?
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: Maybe it'll cause others to come forward?
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: I want to answer that from a number of perspectives.
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: I think we see when people are listening to podcasts,
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: for example, or about to read something, an article, there's
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: like the trigger warning. This is a giant trigger warning
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: for men that have been victims, right? And it's hard
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: to turn it off, so to speak, right? It's It's
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: in the news and in many people's consciousness day to day.
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: All this to say women who are victims and who
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: have never come forward or who have come forward may
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: be extremely triggered and activated. And this can bring back
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: or bring up unexplored trauma or trauma that has been explored,
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: but re-trigger it. This is very fraught for all victims,
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: both those who have come forward and been supported and
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: those who haven't. And I don't want to downplay that truth.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: And if we know women in our lives who have
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: been through something in this arena, it is a really
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: good time to check in. To get to what you're
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: talking about, I think it's possible that there's a through
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: line here that there is much support and outrage, which
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: is hopefully hopeful to women that have been victims and who, again,
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: have come forward or not, There's also a lot of
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: folks who are still engaging in victim shaming. And so
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: these same women that we're talking about are being exposed
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: to that truth as well. It's not just an idea.
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: There are people still blaming this Jane Doe in all
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: the ways that we've talked about and not. And so
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: the messaging I think to any victim is we hear you,
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: we see you. We understand the truth that this is fraught,
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: that this is multilayered. It's not all one way. There's
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: so much love and support. and hope for victims. And
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: there are also people who are going to attempt to
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: shame victims and that we have victims on both sides.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: It's not just about a hero story. It's about helping
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: victims when they come forward and they are shamed, they
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: are ostracized, they are excluded, they are blamed and being
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: there for them on both sides. Do you know what
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: I mean? Not just the strength of coming forward, but
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: like the devastation of having people say or intuit terrible
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: things about them both.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And I did hear Jane Doe's attorney made a statement,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I believe it was yesterday, just that she's not doing well,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: which is sad to hear. I would just hope from
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: our hearts out here that she is living in her
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: bubble with her parents and her family and her support
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: group and that she does see the support out there
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: for her. And I don't know, where do you think
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: that she's at? I'm just asking from a psychological perspective.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: I know he said she wasn't doing well, and that
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: makes me extremely sad. But what is your take on that?
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: Well, the very reason why she didn't come forward at
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: the beginning is we're living right now. We're living right now.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: So it's her nightmare outside of the event itself, which
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: is that she's under all this public scrutiny. She's being shamed.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: It's suggested that she co-created, even deserved this awful trauma
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: to happen to her. And this was her nightmare and
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: why she didn't come forward to begin with, I assume.
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: And so all of the ways in which she was
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: avoiding this very moment are now here. And on top
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: of that, no doubt, she's reliving the actual trauma because
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: it's being discussed in the public arena and The ways
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: in the civil lawsuit and the criminal investigation, she, I imagine,
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: is having to relive it in an investigative way as well.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: So there isn't an aspect under which it's not coming
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: at her.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: In some direction, in some way.
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: That's right. So in a way, this is the worst time.
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: And from a psychological perspective, the trajectory around trauma is... Typically,
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: and I put that in big time quotes because trauma
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: is so varied and so awful and its own mysterious beast.
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: But oftentimes when the trauma starts to come up and out,
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: it sounds cliche, but is when the healing can begin
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: because all the feelings that you've avoided and haven't wanted
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: to look at start coming up and out. When feelings
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: stay inside our body and are suppressed, we have shame
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: and we have symptoms, whether it's anxiety, depression, irritability, too
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: much sleeping, too little sleeping, eating too much. Our body,
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: it goes into fight or flight or freeze, and it's
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: stuck there. So I hope this is the beginning of unstuckness,
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: but that's like a longer term goal. Right now, she's
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: in like the fraught, absolute raw trauma of it all.
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Dr. Golcher, for being here today and
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: discussing all of this with us. It's very... I felt
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: like instead of taking this podcast in a legal direction,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: I really wanted to discuss it with you and take
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: it in a psychological direction. So thank you for being
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: here and doing that. Also, thank you for kind of
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: giving us guidelines as far as how to talk to
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: our children, because like I was telling you, I do
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: have three children and I want to have the conversation
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: with them. And I think everybody out there listening who
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: has children should have the same conversations. But I wanted
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: to just make sure that we were doing it in
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: an appropriate manner. So thank you for guiding us in
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: that as well. So anyway, thank you so much for
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: being here on Legally Brunette. We really appreciate it.
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: All right, what was your takeaway? I think it's so important,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and I know she's a psychologist, so I think it
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: was great that we had her on. I think it's
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: so important to have these conversations with children. I really do.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: And I think it was so... good to have this
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: conversation with her so that she could give guidelines and
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: a little bit of guidance as far as like, how
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: detailed do you get about it? If I'm going to
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: have this conversation with Luke and Keller, cause I want
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Luke and Keller to be the boys that do the
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: right thing.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: Well, what I got away from it was what I
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: took away from it was when she talked about, cause
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: sometimes you don't want to say like, don't drink.
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: But if you drink, call me and I'll pick you up.
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: And then it's like, now I'm telling them, but it's
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: okay if you do, but she, was very smart in
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: explaining that you need to emphasize, in my example, there's
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: no drinking underage, it's never acceptable, it's not okay, whatever, yada, yada, yada.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: Then you can follow it up with, but if you
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: get in a situation that you did end up drinking
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: underage and there's an issue, you need to call me
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: and we'll work it through. And you have, there might
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: be embarrassment, there might be shame, there might be worrisome,
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: but we'll get through it.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: You know, I have had that conversation with Annabelle because
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: she is 13. And I understand that right now that
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: that drinking isn't an issue. However, there are a lot
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: of kids that are her age that are vaping and
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: things like that. And I have said to her multiple
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: times that if she is ever in a situation where
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: she's not comfortable, that she can reach out to me immediately.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: And she doesn't even have to say anything in the text.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: She can just say, I need you or I need
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: you to come get me. And I said to her,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: I won't judge. I won't be upset at you. You
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: won't be in trouble because I think that's very important
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: that you have to tell children that.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: Well, you want them to feel you're a safe parent.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: You can come to me when there's an issue. You
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: want your kids to say, I need dad's help.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: I need mom's help. Not mom's going to kill me.
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: Dad's going to kill me. So that's the relationship we
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: need to have.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I also thought it was important because I also grappled
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: with when I have this conversation with the boys. How
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: much detail do you go into? And I think she
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: did a great job of saying, you can talk about consent,
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: you can talk about, you know, bodies and what's appropriate
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: and how you have autonomy over your own body, and
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: it's not appropriate. But you don't have to go into,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: you know, details because they are still young. But obviously,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I want to make it age appropriate as to you know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: women can say no, and women have autonomy over their
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: own body. And you're not you when they say no,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: they mean no. And you you know what I mean?
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: So I thought it was an interesting conversation about how
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: to give a little detail because you want to be straightforward.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: You want your children to understand what you're talking about.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: You don't want to talk in circles or talk in
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: such vagueness that they don't really understand what you are saying,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: but also not having to go into so much detail
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: with an 11 year old.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: Cause you don't want them to be in a situation
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: where like, is this what mom was talking about?
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: I don't think it was this. She wasn't very clear.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: So I'm okay to do this.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I thought that her guidelines as far as
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: having conversation with children was was spot on and was
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: interesting and helpful as well. So now as parents, you
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: and I have to have these conversations with our children.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: And I think it's important.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: Well, even adults, children too.
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: Right. Exactly.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Children in college that we need to have that talk to,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: because this is obviously a college age issue.
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Well, you have a daughter. So Chanel's in college. She's
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: college age. What, what, conversation would you have with her?
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Let's practice. Yeah, put you on the spot.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: What would you say? I'm not going to ask you
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: to have a talk with her.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Well, prior to talking.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: Well, I always say that... This is my experience from Target.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: I always say, if you're with a friend that's stealing,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: then you advise them not to. If they're going to
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: do it anyway, you leave. You don't hang out with them.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: You don't walk out with them. You don't keep doing...
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: You don't participate just by being with them. And the
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: same could go for here too, is... If you're at
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: a party or at a place that's uncomfortable, you need
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: to leave. Don't just be like, well, I'm not going
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: to drink and do drugs, so I can just stay here.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Because now you're still a part of it. You will
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: still be engaged in it in some fashion, and you
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: might get hurt.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she also talks about the group influence factor,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: whereas you don't want to be the one that's like,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: the kid that's different or the kid.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: I was.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Shane's never had a drink of alcohol in his life.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: So you're talking about someone that very. She shouldn't be hanging.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: Out with those people though.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: So if you're at a party and it's inappropriate and
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: it's getting out of line, yeah, stand out, leave. Don't
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: be a part of that. Let people know what your
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: standards are. Let people know like, I don't do this.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: So don't even ask me.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's what's difficult for kids, especially
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: college age.
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: It's easy for me to say.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying that's what needs to be.
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: Done, though. Right.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: So anyway, what I'm saying is I think that you
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: and I together need to have conversations with our children.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: But I feel like a dad having a conversation with
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: his daughter is different and taken differently than a mother
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: having a conversation with her daughter. And the same for
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: the boys. Me having a conversation with the boys from
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: a female perspective as to I can talk from my
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: perspective as a female. Well, they need both.
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: They need both.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, I hope you all out there
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: that have children can have these conversations with your children.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: You can do it. And I feel like after this
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: conversation with the psychologist that we have some guidelines as
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: far as how to go about doing it and that
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: we can make sure that we're raising men that are
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: not part of the group chat, that we raise men
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: that can... Not monsters. Not monsters. We're raising men, not monsters,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: that we raise men that can see that group chat,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: see that it's disgusting, see that what's going on is
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: absolutely horrible. And instead of just not... Because a lot
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: of these boys, because there's like, what, 57 in that
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: group chat? They're complicit. I believe there's maybe only three
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: or four that are actually saying these horrific things. But
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: that means that there's 50 some other ones that are
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: seeing it, but they're complicit. They're not doing anything. They're
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: not calling 911. They're not going to this room and saying,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: this is awful. I need to call someone and make
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: sure that this is, they're not doing anything. So not
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: only do I want to raise boys that aren't the
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: ones sending the disgusting text, but I want to raise
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: boys that aren't complicit to what's going on in those
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: text messages as well.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: Agreed.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Agreed.
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go a step further and raise boys
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: that aren't even a part of that Snapchat group. Right.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: I'm just kidding. It's going to happen.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly. All right. Thank you guys so much for listening
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: to Legally Brunette. We hope that you enjoyed this episode
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: and that you took something away from this episode today
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: with a psychologist in the Cornell 7. As always, please
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts. And if
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: you have any recommendations of cases, you can always find
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: me on Instagram at And send me a message as
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: far as feedback or a case you would like us
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: to discuss. So thank you so much for listening. We
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: appreciate you.