Latest / Becoming Flame: Where Sensuality, Sovereignty, and Sacred Power Ignite / Wild Women, Eros, and the Courage to Be Seen with Hannah Wang AKA Cha Cha Bang

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Wild Women, Eros, and the Courage to Be Seen with Hannah Wang AKA Cha Cha Bang · Becoming Flame: Where Sensuality, Sovereignty, and Sacred Power Ignite

• Kait Tregenza: Hello and welcome to another episode of Becoming Flame. Today's episode is so exciting to me. I've been waiting for this one for a really long time. I have seen our next guest whose on stage name is Cha Cha Bang, which gives you a little bit of an indication as to who you're in for. Cha Cha or Hannah, which is her real name, but I'm going to call it Cha Cha because I think that's really cool. saw her perform a festival in Sydney a few months ago. We have been trying to connect ever since. She is a busy lady. She is putting on ⁓ shows all over the country ⁓ the Northern Rivers, in Sydney, in Brisbane, I think. She's an amazing performer. And for me, I just thought I'm going to ⁓ reach to this woman because what she's creating is amazing. You could feel the difference. This was not just a woman taking her clothes off. This was a woman who was doing revolutionary woman's performance is a rite of passage. She's just directing shows, she's leading women back into their bodies, into their erotic power, into their right to be seen, their right to be celebrated ⁓ on ⁓ own I have read the reviews of the women who have done her courses, who have done her shows, and I am crying. The things that these women say about the felt transformation of their lives, of their bodies, of their immensely changed walk through the world. It's their erotic power is alive. is who they are is now finally being felt, seen and embodied by them. And I love it because I'm a baby burlesquer. This is a little bit of a fan girl moment for me. And I remember when I first speaker-1: is so exciting! speaker-0: Thank you so much for having me. Kait Tregenza: got the opportunity to go on stage to do a performance. are not performing as yourself. You are performing as the highest, most aroused, erotic, eros version you. You know how to move your body without ever having been taught. ⁓ And ⁓ ⁓ that feedback from Hannah's shows ⁓ and from her clients and her students say the same thing. And watching her dance, watching her ⁓ this person on stage ⁓ ⁓ my God, there's just something so powerful in burlesque that has almost nothing to do with taking your clothes off. That's just a fun ⁓ of it. And I've seen lots of shows and I've taught by a variety of teachers, but the way that speaker-1: So I can't help but notice that Cha Cha on stage, Cha Cha Bang on stage and Hannah Wang here, slightly different people. There's a different energy, there's a different felt presence. ⁓ you birth Cha Cha Bang? speaker-0: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Hannah merges ancient wisdom, sensual rights, full-bodied feminine expression. It's exactly what we need to be amplifying right now. So I invited her on the show. It is literally what I am building with this podcast. all of our intimacy products at Phenxx are about knowing to find and access so much safety in your eros. That's what she does. And so she's really here. speaker-0: think Cha Cha Bang gave me the permission to unleash a lot of sides of myself that I think previously I might have been too scared to unleash. Like there's something really great that happens when you give yourself like a stage name or a burlesque name, a pseudonym. It just allows you to unlock different archetypes and ways of being. You know, I think Hannah Wang in the world. Kait Tregenza: guiding women to shed shame. So instead of taking off clothes, they're taking off shame, they're taking off armor, they're taking off all of the taboo, all of the things that we do not need to be holding and helping them to embody sensuality, sexuality, femininity, body love, true leadership, everything that is good and holy in woman their skin, their hips, their truth. speaker-0: as myself, as my identity, I've come across a lot of different experiences and stories that have held me back from my full expression, whether that be society's ideas in my mind or peers or professional life or family or whatever it is, these ideas that I created. Somehow stepping into another character and creating this other character, it just gives like a little bit more of a permission slip to just bring out this like different energy. Kait Tregenza: And I just love it. I love it. I was so, so excited. She has just finished another container and are going to get into it today without ⁓ any ado. Please would you welcome ⁓ Miss Cha ⁓ Bang. speaker-1: Mmm. And how does it give you permission to let go of things as well? Those aspects of you that maybe don't need to be part of you anymore. speaker-0: Yeah, I think it's just, you know, no longer identifying with my story and my history. Like, Hannah Wang has, like, gone through all these things and, you know, Hannah Wang has memories in her body where she might have been crucified for showing her sensuality in a professional realm or, or, or, or all these stories that Hannah Wang has gone through. And, you know, when I step into Cha Cha Bang, it's just like this kind of freedom of anonymity, of freedom of another character and just this, ⁓ almost building archetypes within myself. Like, okay, I have this like, fierce, sensual, warrior, sexy superstar in me. But you know, if Hannah Wang goes out there and is like, yeah, I'm a fucking star, like, am I allowed to swear? Sorry. It's becoming flame. It's gonna get hot. You know, like, when you're on stage, I'm like, I'm a fucking star. Everyone look at me. Then, you know, there might be things coming up as Hannah Wang of like, what if I'm being too much? What if there's ego? You know, what if I'm being too egotistical or all these ideas? then Tasha Pang just doesn't give a fuck. She just gets up there and just owns it. And yeah, there's a really beautiful thing when you give yourself this like, burlesque stage name or pseudonym to give yourself permission to really express and explore different parts within yourself. speaker-1: I know, I'm a baby burlesque. By no means do I do what you do. And a baby burlesque before I had a physical baby and I haven't gone back since. But the, wouldn't it as a character that I was playing. It was more like I was tapping into the part of me. that most wanted to be expressed, that most wanted to come out and be seen and be felt and be experienced and be moved and like. Take that stage in a very different way, you where you greed differently, you move differently, time slows down and contorts ⁓ there's something. ⁓ so powerful about these. I mean, we're in many ways, Béla's dances are the modern portal keepers, you know, to that erotic realm. I am so interested about how you into this, you got this art and to this portal keeper, as you actually probably more correctly are in your work with women and transformation. But ⁓ I want focus more on you for the first part of the question. speaker-0: Yeah, it's such a beautiful art form and sensuous and has such an incredible history of women that have just broken through societal norms to reclaim their sensuality. And that's so wonderful that you've been doing burlesque too. For me, I've always been a dancer and performer. Since I was like two years old, I started ballet and grew up in like the dance school world and performing art schools. I grew up in film and television and yeah, had a career in it, I guess, until most of my young adult life. Then for a while I had moved to LA, first in the pursuit of entertainment, but then I ended up opening a clothing shop over there and opening up my own business. And ⁓ I did for eight years and got to really explore a different part of myself, of my business mind, my masculine mind. I think there was a part of me with performing arts that I didn't feel like I had a lot of control over my own career, especially as it came to film and television and always auditioning and having a business then allowed me to just really feel like I could get my hands in something and create something, to finish, just me. And then 2020 happened and I came back from LA to Sydney and... know, it's such a great pause for everyone. Like we all had to just stop what we were doing and reevaluate. And at that time I really miss being in my feminine and performing and I just had such a learning for it. So I took a dance class at a burlesque class at Sky Sirens, which was this, it's closed now, but it was a fantastic, that's where you went as well. So good. It was such a beautiful studio. speaker-1: Bye! speaker-0: ⁓ I joined a troupe with an incredible burlesque dancer, Porcelain Alice. You learned the porcelain too? ⁓ my God, she's the queen. She's the queen. ⁓ incredible. Yeah. I took a dance class with Porcelain Alice and my first performance with burlesque was at Royal Heart Review with her troupe. And after that, developed my own solo act and she booked me for some gigs. And then it just kind of snowballed from there. And when I came up to Byron, there wasn't much of a burlesque scene up here. And it just started because me and some friends of mine, like we just wanted to take central dance classes. just, we wanted to activate that energy and we wanted to dance and be sexy and have that safe space for us. So I was like, you know what, it's not up here. might as well teach a class. I taught pole dancing in my time and taught dance and, you know, I felt very comfortable there. So I started classes and yeah, just snowballed from there. speaker-1: OK, there's so much in there that is so amazing. So you're obviously somebody who ⁓ really good at taking chances and really good at backing herself and just taking that leap and being like, OK, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But what if it does? Is that a personality thing? Is that part of who you ⁓ Or have you already known how to tap into? ⁓ your own erotic creation and creator in some ways? Like how did that happen for you? guess is it it native and natural born or is that cultivated? speaker-0: Such an interesting question because it's probably a bit of both. who knows where it comes from, like what our soul blueprints decide that we're going to incarnate. You know, I, my son is Aries, my Venus is Taurus. I'm like spicy and sensual and you know, that that's part of my makeup. and have been like a very sexual. even young woman. But in terms of, I think there's two parts of it. There's like the eroticism part and then there's a part where you're just like, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to risk it. Let's see what happens. First, starting with the part that's like, all right, I'm going to take this risk. I don't know if it's going to work out. I think that's something that maybe is very Aries of me. I think maybe that's just something that's in my makeup to do. Like when I was young, was seven. ⁓ I was 18 when I my skydiving license and was jumping out of planes every and that taught me a really healthy relationship with fear and taking risks. And then when I moved, when I opened my clothing shop in LA, I was only 23 and I just kind of had this mentality of just like bucket and doing things without overthinking them, just letting myself like follow an impulse of what excited me and going for it. So I think that's allowed me to take risks with things like business or. with things like, I guess also eroticism. And then to speak to the other part of your question, like our erotic nature, think it might be unique to everyone. For me, I think there's kind of two parts. ⁓ one side, I do think it's something inherent in me. I also think it's inherent in all women and all people, ⁓ I think that's something I've always given myself permission to have access to. Another side of this eroticism is I think There's something that happens when you've experienced traumatic events around a certain thing. And that's not to say it needs to be big capital T trauma. Sometimes these can just be like little micro things that happen growing up. But I think when we experience things that hold us back or can be challenging, that actually gives us an opportunity to go deeper into it. know, so I think You know, it's not a coincidence that a lot of people that do come into the world of burlesque or sensuality have had really or traumatic experiences in the realm of sexuality. And to be honest, I think the majority of women in the world have, ⁓ way or another, whether it be from ⁓ experiences or just like the greater collective of living in a patriarchy. And so yeah, I think there's something to be said of like when you do have something taken away from you or when you have trauma around something, it gives you this opening and opportunity to deepen into it through the healing process in a way that you might not ever touch if everything was just kind of smooth sailing and fine, you know? speaker-1: I think about that so often. I love finding these potent, juicy, terrible to do emotions. Like it's my favorite thing in the world because behind it is so much power. so I have holding space. Like I didn't have this feeling. I went into the container, trying to find this emotion about whether or not it was in my body. And it was around the ⁓ MI envious women who are unconditionally loved, that nothing has ever happened to them, that they're protected and that they just see the world in a way that is so fundamentally different to someone who was not conditional, who was conditionally loved in their childhood. I wanted to understand like, ⁓ is the power of that envy for me? Like, where is, what's that unlocking in me? And there's this almost like acceptance now that we all have so much shit that's flung at us in our our childhood because of way that our parents were raised before them and before them and before them and you know we're a part of this generation that's all coming here to break this cycle and so ⁓ think there's this almost like badge of honor of like wrapping how much trauma you've had compared to somebody else. It's like a really interesting game that people are playing at the moment. It's like, you know, who's got the most trauma? Who's got the biggest capital T trauma versus, you know, the most accumulation of little T trauma? And I was like, have I ever met anyone who hasn't experienced anything like this? You know, because we say things all the time like, you you grow up in patriarchy, it's just a given. But I was like, what if it's not? Who's that person? You know, who's that? And what do we, who are doing this erotic work, have to learn from her? And does she know how to move her body the same way? Does she know how to access the depth of her in the same way? Do I have envy for her? Do I hate her in some way? Like, where's that within me? And it was this really interesting way of changing it around. And the primary reason I was doing that is if we are all imagining the world in a different way to the patriarchal version that we're all getting through some kind of difficulty, whether that's at the hand of men or the hand of the structures or the hand of the way in which the society is structured, you know, who is she? Because unless we know how to imagine, who we are when we're unconditionally loved and unconditionally celebrated and unconditionally like in love with who we are as, you know, as women and who the other women around us are. I don't know if we know how to project that reality into the world. And part of the reason that I was so excited about this conversation is that's kind of the space that you're trying to create. with the work that you do in your containers. So I want to ask that question, like what happened? Maybe not in the first part where she never goes through nothing, know, it's, you know, crystals and butterflies, but like, if she's been through something and she shows up in a container where she's unconditionally held, what and what does she need to, like, does she need to go into the deep emotions that I was trying to hold and feel and uncover? Or is it bit different from that, like explain what you're doing and what's available for these women. speaker-0: First of all, wow, that made me feel so emotional to hear that reflected in that way and seen in that way. And yeah, to put words to it in that way of like, we've created a space where women can be unconditionally loved. And yeah, that really struck a chord in me and just wow, because that really is the essence of what we're doing. So thank you for seeing me receiving us so deeply on that level. speaker-1: I do some really potent exploration from my butt past. Where's the envy that I have for these women who are loved in that way? speaker-0: Envy is such an interesting emotion, isn't it? Because it can activate so much. It's so triggering. yeah, it offers us a portal of like, what is it you're really wanting for yourself that you're seeing in another? But it's so curious because when you bring up the question of like, these women are unconditionally loved and always have been, I personally don't know anyone that would fall under that category. speaker-1: don't. there was that deep sadness that had to be felt and I cried myself but I cried for all women who out of ⁓ nearly billion women on this planet, I couldn't name a single ⁓ one. speaker-0: What about, could you name a woman that is able to just so fully unconditionally love herself at all times? speaker-1: I think there are many that I know that are moving into it. And I think the value of unconditional love that even when you don't feel your ultimate best that you can love yourself in that moment of ⁓ that the pain is unraveling, but that you still got you. Yeah, know women like that who are like the self or self ⁓ meeting isn't I'm perfect and I'm unscathed and I'm you know, separate wife. It is, I'm here and whoever I am, whatever I'm feeling, ⁓ I'm going, wherever I'm being taken into, I ⁓ have any of me that I don't know that I reject or that I repel away from. you know, it's a woman that stands able to be who she is in that moment and knowing that in another moment she'll be a very different woman again. That I think is available. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that's that's speaker-1: That's the work, right? speaker-0: Mm. Yeah, that deep holding itself. I think, you know, even just in my own personal journey recently, I feel like deeper and deeper layers become uncovered of places where I have been self rejecting or self abandoning or shaming certain parts of my inner worlds. You know, they kind of come around in a spiral in phases. And then, yeah, in a container like Wild Women, think what helps us is the community of all the women together. Because there'll be times where people are in our feeling that, you know, are in times of not as much self love or self rejection, self shame, and things are being activated, triggered, the stories coming up. in a collective like that, there also be women during that time that are feeling really solid in themselves. It could be as simple as like, our sister circles, we start every circle with just checking in with where we are in our bleed. Sometimes it's as simple as like those in Luteal are like, I'm gonna fucking blow up some shit and I'm going crazy and the girls are in ovulation. I'm I'm glowing. ⁓ the beautiful thing about women is like when we're in community like that, we can hold each other through these different phases. I think the feminine is really a collective ⁓ at best, which is why I think All women should have access to a community of women like this that can really hold us and hold our experiences because we can all relate. And if there are times where we aren't able to hold ourselves, there is such a holding that happens in the collective energy of women. speaker-1: It's an interesting thing. Can you imagine going into your corporate 9am Monday morning meeting and then checking in where you're at with your cycle and that being a normal part of life? It's just a woo woo thing to do. think it's about really taking space as women and being like, hormonally, there's a different version of me today than there was on Friday. speaker-0: Yeah, and then also being in celebration of the cycles of death and life because the feminine also rules the darkness and the realms of death. So it's not always about having to be in your summer, in your light. It's also honoring kind of like what you were saying earlier. It's also honoring these phases of having parts of you die off, the snake shedding its skin. Like that is such a sacred time as well for all that to come up. So yeah, like what you speaking to earlier, it's not about this perfection of always being in divine light, because if we were, I believe we'd just be dead. speaker-1: got nothing to do. speaker-0: That is, we've kind of come into this human experience to experience this kind contrast, these human emotions and learn how to shed. And from that shedding and from these experiences, we then can learn what we want to create from it. We use that as like the fertilizer of growth for the creations of our life. speaker-1: I'm really intrigued because I mean, lots of people talk about, you know, cycling, cycle mapping, know, living by your cycle and everything, but you're in, you're in erotic portal opener holder. What does the menstrual cycle offer eroticism or eros in general? speaker-0: Mm, juicy. I think it's so different at all different times of your cycle. And it also comes down to like, how do we define Eros? Like for me, it's not just about sexuality, but it's about aliveness. And in that aliveness, how fully being able to feel all these emotions inside the body. You know, it kind of, I think at some point in my spiritual journey, spirituality became all like about the ether, about... you know, traveling different dimensions and kind of coming out of my body. This journey back to eroticism has dropped me back into the body. Like what is the physical experience? Where do these emotions live in my body and how do I hold myself? How do I let my body go through its natural releasing cycles such as tears or shaking or tremor or, you know, burping or whatever the way that the body releases energy. How do I be in deeper conversation with my body? So the menstrual cycle is definitely so key for women in that returning back to that. And yeah, there's so many ways we can work with our cycle. I think first and foremost is awareness. All women, feel like at a fundamental level, we should all be tracking our cycle and just know where we're at. Because it just gives you information of like, you know, and every woman's gonna be different. Their ovulation experience is gonna be different. Their bleed is gonna be different. But to first just have awareness over it, you then connect with a chemistical being. And if I'm feeling this intense rage right now, it may not last because I'm in luteal. Or if I'm feeling so glowy and horny, maybe I'm in ovulation. So there is that aliveness of the full spectrum of emotions. But as we come to just sexuality and creative energy even, I think it can be so beautiful to experience that, obviously in ovulation in your summer period where you're feeling just like glowing and magnetic like that is just such a beautiful feeling. We all love that. But also when we're in our bleed cycles, I love experiencing sexuality in that as well. Cause for me, that feels very like shamanic. Like we're going into those deep realms of the darkness and the veil is so thin. ⁓ Our wombs are a literal portal to the creation of life, like life literally enters through them. So we have that in our wombs and when it opens up and bleeds, we're so deeply connected to those realms. So to experience pleasure, which if we look at orgasmic pleasure, not necessarily defined by orgasm or sensation, but what if we define pleasure as this like loss of mind, like just not thinking anymore, but being fully present in the body. that really allows us to have this communication with the underworld, with shamanic rites that we don't have at other times in our cycle. And then we can look at our spring where it's a birth of new ideas and we're starting to become fertile again and all that we've released and the messages that have come through our bleed phase can start to like birth into a new space in our spring. Or we look at our autumn al-Ud-Di or where we're really shedding and that can be a time where a lot of these kind of feelings that we may have just kind of like put to the side or we haven't fully paid attention to start becoming really loud. And that's been our time to know, okay, this is what I'm releasing. This is what I'm not carrying with me into the next cycle. speaker-1: One of the things that has been intriguing me ⁓ and more and more as I layer community connectedness, I'm fascinated with tree networks and just interconnected ⁓ networks. the womb ⁓ isn't Women are interconnected. We sync up and it's not by mistake, it's by design. One of the things that you just sort of like touched on and I want to pull it back into is this curiosity that I've had around. almost the avenue in the portal for actually holding, like going into an emotion at a particular time in your cycle. So for example, we are a warring society that is, that has so much sadness and rage and despair and all of those things that exist externally to us, have to exist internally to us. were feeling like, even if we're not feeling them, our body antennae feels it, like our bodies are receptors to all of this. And it was really this idea and this thought of like the women who go to the wailing wall and like mourn for the mourners, you know, and embody the deepest and purest sadness and grief and... I'm sorry, this is just like two days after. the bondai. And you can feel the sadness, right? You can feel the collective mourning. And part of this conversation started opening up for me when I try to talk to ⁓ they mentally calculate grief. Not all men, but a lot of men have been taking these conversations from a mental capacity to understand what emotion ⁓ And think we've been trying ⁓ so for so many millennia to fit in the correct boxes in a society that is mental and is out of body and is, you you spoke about this, the spiritual of going up and out of the body. That is a male ⁓ of spirituality. That is a male experience of a higher purpose. Women go downwards. Women go inward, they go into our bodies. And as we're seeing this reclamation of truth, true femininity being held within the body, we start to actually see the shift in what's happening in the language around, you know, whether it's just the spiritual realms or like the collective, you know, talking about what we're doing as a womanhood, which is around remembering what's held in our body. And this experience with Bondi, yet another atrocious event, you know, designed to divide and to hate and to separate. And especially because it was such a specific attack against a specific religion that has beautiful practices of collective embodiment of grief, collective embodiment speaker-0: like speaker-1: it all. And you were just talking like if it's your, you know, if it's this phase or this phase or this phase, like this is what we can tap into. And it got me feeling like the erotic has been so misdiagnosed to be about upward sex and out of your body. Because again, the marketing has been done for the pleasure of somebody else that happens to be a man. And as we reclaim Eros for the power of us to change the world all in feeling what this world already is holding and moving and call it our biotechnology system because it is the most powerful system on this planet. No AI. no amount of technology that we try to reproduce of the the of the body system, especially the woman, the female body system will ever replicate it. And you just like opened this whole image for me around. Imagine if there were bleeding circles of women all around the world who were bleeding and shedding out intentionally all this grief. all this sadness, all this war, all this despair. And then in, you know, each phase, we're healing, you know, but in this mass collective movement where women just like, it's not like a little cutesy check in of where you are in your cycle anymore. It's like, okay, we are collectively syncing up womanhood for radical change on this planet. Like, wouldn't that just be? What if women's bleeding could stop war? Like that's the kind of world that we all want to live in and tap into. And I just think that Eros as being like sexy just needs to be totally reframed. speaker-0: there that, is it Rumi quote that says when the women return their blood to the earth, then there'll be no more blood being spilled from war? Something like that. It's not exactly that, but there's a quote like that. And I that because it really speaks to what you're saying. what, and I believe that so strongly. The women's power were the oracles. can connect with the earth in a way that men can't. And I do think it requires us coming together as well. And so I feel very strongly if that's a world we can see and envision and want to create, then we have to start creating that as women. We can't wait for that to just happen. And it could be like what you're doing now with a podcast. It could be like what we're doing with Wild Women. For any woman, it could just be gathering sisters together and checking in, being like, we're bleeding. And then in that bleed sending a prayer out for, you know, the collective humanity that are suffering, the collective grief that's out there in the world and intentionally releasing that with their bleed each month. I think that's incredibly powerful what you've brought forward. yeah, I think, you know, part of what we do with Wild Women also is we treat our show kind of like a sex magic ritual, really. What we do is we have these sex magic practices that you could also use in orgasm in your solo sexual energy practices. But if we apply them to sensual dance and like the sensual erotic energy that's brought up and activated in dance, and we intentionally cultivate that in our systems or magnetism in our body through energy work and breath work, we then, each class, we have something that we heal within ourselves, whether it be shame or our speaker-1: E. speaker-0: relationship with our body or whatever it is, we're addressing something within ourselves that we're healing. But then at the end of the class, we send out a prayer that whatever we've worked and healed on within ourselves, may that ripple effect to the all collective, may all beings love their body the way that we are learning to, may all beings find peace within their emotional landscape the way that we are learning to. And we build this kind of collective prayer that then during our show, we set an intention that like, that's like the orgasm. We then send them and like burst it to the collective through breathwork techniques that we actually do in the show. It's not something that's overt. Like if you sit and watch a show, you know, like watching some like a witchy ritual. But when you're in the show, you know what we've been building and praying for week after week, the collective prayer that we've built towards. And then you know that in the show, our intention is we're sending that energy out there so that may all beings feel this healing. that we've been able to experience within ourselves. So yeah, I feel like that speaks to kind of what you're saying about how women can come together and actually collective change through our intention, through our wounds, through our erotic energy. And yeah, maybe the time is now where that is actually becoming more accepted. We're returning to this knowledge and seeing the power and remembering the power in that, rather than thinking that the power always lies in the logical or the doing, that the feminine power speaker-1: Thank speaker-0: it lies in this intention and in this magic and that intention is so real. speaker-1: ⁓ funny, right? We use these different words across cultures, across religions, across spiritualities, across ⁓ it may be of holding a container for change. I would love to hear a little bit more about, you know, if you have a story of a specific woman or a specific container and the intention that you held and like what actually materialized as a result or what transformed her personally or the group or yeah, just give us a little bit of like taste, like let us feel the magic. speaker-0: my gosh. I mean, there are so many stories and without sharing like a particular woman's story that isn't mine to tell, I'll share some like kind of general things that we often see, like themes that we see through a lot of women. And these can small changes to huge life changes. Like for instance, ⁓ you ⁓ We were talking a bit about professional life earlier. We've had many women come into our world and be like, you know, I really want to do this. I want to like, I have this desire to like be in my era, to be on stage. But, you know, I'm a teacher, I'm a doctor, I'm a professional. I have a nine to five. Like if they see me, they're going to fire me or cancel me or not want to book with me. You know, that's a very common thing we experience. ⁓ And I think we've all kind of had that experience in some professional world where we've been told you can't be sexy and be professional. You know, I've experienced that in my own world as well, where I've had pictures of me in bikinis and stuff, and that's been a problem in the professional world. And it's just like, where's my body? Like what? So that's been an interesting thing where women have brought that into the container. And then by the end, you know, maybe they've seen some of their clients in the audience or, something has shifted in them where they're like no longer afraid to be seen as that or to be caught being sexual, but they're like, no, I'm bad ass. I'm fierce and like I'm leading with this and like the rest of the world can like fall around me. And if there's something that's saying I'm not allowed to be that, then that can be lot of it. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's like really, it's kind of like an everyday example, but it's more powerful than you think in the ways of taking your power back. speaker-1: We apologize. speaker-0: Because then you're no longer saying that there's an institution outside of yourself that can dictate what your relationship with your sexuality is. And that's huge. And our sexuality is our power. Like we create through Eros and sexual energy and through pleasure. You we create, we manifest through that. So there's things like that, or there's that kind of magic glow that you can't put your finger on that you see women heaving with. ⁓ when they end the container, everyone's yeah, not. It's no product outside yourself. I really a full acceptance of self and a that you will now be seen. No one else gets addicted, dictate whether or not you can be seen or you're too much or too little. It's just like, no, I deserve this space. I'm a woman. I deserve to be seen. My light deserves to be shared. I'm allowed to take up this space. speaker-1: Not Maybelline. speaker-0: It's my right and my, you know, what, no obligation, but it's like, it's ⁓ gift to take up this space and be seen because the more I give myself permission to be seen in my sensuality and my power in all that I am and, you know, without apology, with just like full brightness, like the more I bring forward that energy, the more than that gives other women to bring that forward as well. So it becomes less about, I'm scared of being seen and all this and more about, you know, what we all deserve to be seen. nothing inherently wrong with this. Yeah, speaking to more personal stories, like we've had women that have then gone on and chased careers in new ways that they didn't think they would, like ⁓ on and open businesses. They, we've had women that have left relationships we've had women hope that have then found love afterwards. often hear women come back and say all their friends are like what has happened to you? Like you were glowing like there's just something about you ⁓ and just I think it's about a way that you carry yourself in this world and really just coming forward with this like full permission to be feminine, be magnetic. And yeah, that's not always like this black and white thing. It's like something in the undercurrent that happens that you then step out into the world and you allow your femininity to shine and be there again, because I think a lot of this world has asked us to disconnect from our femininity. speaker-1: normal. speaker-0: Hmm speaker-1: And then you start to think that that's the normal way to live. so I'm curious, how long does it take for a woman that's kind of never really been in this space who doesn't live here, who doesn't have an address here yet, she comes into your space. How long before she, you know, she moves in, she brings everything she owns and she like, I live here now. I reside in my eras. I live from the space. Like how long on a typical journey would that take? speaker-0: Yeah, so our experience is nine weeks. We do five weeks of workshops. We have a nipple pasty crafting day, a rehearsal, a few live shows and a closing circle. So that container is like a journey that we take you on. However, in terms of like arriving into Eros, like it's a really hard thing to quantify because I don't think there is an arrival point. Even me, someone who is facilitating this experience for so many people, I am still deep in the journey. I'm still forever learning and arriving into my eros and finding ways where I've been disconnected and denumbing or expanding my capacity to receive. I feel like it's really an infinite journey. You may unlock layers where you realize, okay, I'm in with this journey now. I'm not afraid of this journey anymore. I'm happy to go through the ups and the downs and I feel confident holding myself in it, you know, and then you'll think that in the next month something happens and you're like, wow, life's really testing my ability to hold myself in this. And it's a journey. And the idea of the container, it's not really about a destination to reach, but just like a in someone's journey to ⁓ hope, a container or ⁓ an of how you can hold yourself, how you might be able to give yourself permission because You know, to be completely honest, sometimes after the container, it can be a big integration. Sometimes it opens all these things in you ⁓ there old stories or old, know, false beliefs that you've wrapped around yourself that then need to fall away. then trigger, you know, an even more intense process. So it's unique to every woman and it's not. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: one destination that you reach, it really is a lifelong, forever journey. you know, Wild Women, what we do isn't the only answer. There's many avenues that you can find through this and every avenue will give you something different. And no matter what stage you're at, whether you are like the world's best hantra teacher or you're new to it, I think all of these process can have something to offer you and you can still deepen into your journey. So. speaker-1: appreciate that explanation because from my own personal experiences on this planet. And I'm not saying that this is a ⁓ it happens to be ⁓ pattern for me, a way of working in the world for me. I wish it weren't, but it is. And now I just embrace it, which is ⁓ when I get a almost like, let's call it like a peak moment where ⁓ I'm about to get too big for my skin, too big for my body, like too big for my It doesn't just go, okay, well let's, you know, maybe rearrange the furniture in your house and then you can, you know, fit a little bit more in or like maybe we, you know, do these like very easy steps to ⁓ move that new identity. For me, it is, you burn the entire thing to the ground. You go, you went this high, then you have to go that low. the. So you have your Chakrabang, my name ⁓ I have always felt is like my other ego or my alter or higher or my lower, whatever you want to call it, my goddess name, my like whatever. It's And for a long time, I didn't truly ⁓ the energy of Ishtar the Inanna. and the underworld and the phoenix and the deep transformation and You know, we came to doing this podcast, it was it was around. I wanted it to be like this rising and I wanted to be like, no, I just want to stop being ⁓ way and like blowing shit up and like, you know, burning everything down. I just want to, you know, rise and gently and happy days and like light love butterflies and fireworks, you know, like just easy going. but that's not who I am. And so what I realized was like this becoming flame, this part of you that has to get so hot for the alchemy move, to get going, to like find. And was actually my experience of Bel-esque as well in ⁓ a of a more fun way. But it was really that concept of like both physically being so hot on the stage from the lights and from the all of that kind of glitz and glamour and you're moving and your body's hot and you're, you know, you're sweaty and you're on stage, so you're a bit nervous and your body's a bit hotter, but also like internally of like all the aspects of me that tell me I need to be this good girl that I need to put myself last that taking Your clothes off on stage is wrong or vanity or is just about having a good body, about your egoistic life. That all was so removed. The idea of you only get to show your body if it looks like this, this, this or that. you only get to be sexy if you look this. So you only get to move if it's for this person. And all of the belief around around why you would do with it was so far down the list. And what I really love about what you're doing, what you're saying right now is the primary person that this benefits is self. That's it is. And so for me, my experience was very much because I wasn't doing this in a container in the way that you're doing it. I just took a class, you know, and the emotional and rest of you know, our chemical journey. is happening. And I think one of the reasons I wanted to reach out to you. ⁓ Can you hear me? speaker-0: I can hear you. Yeah, I was breaking up a bit, but I can hear you. The video just paused, but can see you again. ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, one of the reasons that I wanted to reach out to you was sometimes we do these things like, we think we're taking a spin class, but we're activating this immense change. You know, we're stepping into the fire, we're stepping into the flame, the portal, the whatever. you know, sometimes these things are really, really accessible. You can go walk down to Oxford Street and walk into, you know, like a cutesy little studio and, and, you know, learn how to, you know, the art of, of, of striptease or, or, or, you know, anything. And we have these life changing moments of it. And so I'm like, kind of curious because of my own experience in like, Whoa, like what's happening? Like I've got who am I now? Like, what do I believe? How do I approach my life? Like, ⁓ am I going to say yes to? What am I going to say no to in this moment? Who am I going to, you going to Am I going to accept going into this underworld right now? You know, when I didn't really have time to like, you know, I thought I was doing a class and now I'm taking you on a like personal transformational journey, walking down Oxford Street in Sydney. It's like, this is not the moment to be cracked right open, you know? And so I'm curious, like, did you create the container because you knew this and this was an experience that you yourself like went through? Or because you knew that going deeper in a container could just be the transformation with the fun. Like, I'm so curious. That's one of the key reasons I wanted to talk to you about the work that you do. speaker-0: Hmm. have ⁓ deep into the self-development world. I think it really kicked off when I started my own business. I think I read a piece of advice that the business is a reflection of the owner. ⁓ you know, I in my early twenties and I was like, okay, let me sort myself out. And, that started a journey. ⁓ And I into a ⁓ different of healing modality and so many different healing modalities. And yeah, I really went deep into that world. ⁓ And then I think there came a point where I was like, okay, I kind of have a handle over, know, there's no final destination, but I have this confidence and tools of how to shift beliefs, how to be with emotion, how to do a lot of the basic things to get through, you know, these dark nights. And I my own trauma in... a new trauma, I guess, in 2023, I think it was. I experienced an assault and a sexual assault and trigger warning for, I don't know if you want to put that there. that catalyze, I was at a point where I really had healed a lot. I was like, I had a really wonderful, peaceful point in my life. And kind of like you're walking down Oxford, it's just like, know, la la la, having just... a beautiful phase of my life and like, boom, this happens. And there was this realization of like, oh shit, like I'm gonna have to just, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna have to go through this. There's no way out around like this just happened. I'm aware of how to heal. I'm aware that this is gonna be difficult. I'm aware that this is, know, trauma I'm gonna have to face and have to sit with. So it was like, all right, let's just go full into it. and through it. And I had the tools at that point and the confidence in myself to be like, I can just dive right into the dark soul, dark night of the soul. Like, let's go in there. And that catalyzed a big journey for me. speaker-1: and speaker-0: I heard recently a friend had shared like the full quote of like the Dark Knight of the Soul is like that's where you meet the light. I might be mispronouncing it. It's actually in the Dark Knight of the Soul where you're closest to the light or closest to you know that idea of creator and God and I think in that space I really felt so close to the divine and was able to just really receive messages from the divine and in some of the most painful and lowest moments through that process in probably the most painful where I was just like, am feeling so much pain. I don't know what to do with all of this. I just had this deep, deep prayer. This really sincere, deep prayer of like, I am feeling so much pain. I need to turn this into beauty. I need to turn this into art and purpose. need this to, I need this pain to fuel just the most beautiful thing. And I just prayed and I prayed. And From that prayer is really how Wild Women was birthed. And I didn't come into it fully healed or seeming to be some teacher that knew it all. From the very beginning, it was like, I'm here hand in hand with you. I'm healing myself. I'm walking through this fire. I have some tools and confidence to be able to do so. If you want to walk with me, let's journey this underworld together. It was never from a place of like, I'm showing, you know, like I'm healed, so I'm taking you there. was like, we're in this together. Like I'm healing too. And Wild Women for me was something I needed. done so much healing in my life as well and explored so many modalities, there was this feeling of like, I'm kind of sick of the spiritual world in a way. Like I don't want it to feel so like bogged down and heavy in this and that. Like, You know, we need a little bit of lightness and we need a little bit of fun and entertainment and glitter and rhinestones. And we need to just balance it out with play because otherwise it can just feel too much. I think this also comes back to like healing through pleasure, not always having it so heavy, but like finding pleasure and joy in those moments. And then, you know, we create a space where we have the capacity to feel both what you were saying, the expansive light and the dark. And we're not just going only into the dark. We're not just bypassing the dark and going into the light. But we're like, this is all of it. We've got space for the light and the fun and the dark and the realness. And yeah, it really was creative because it was something that I was needing and I wanted to be a part of. speaker-1: I think that's the magic of taking. That's the magic of the alchemy. That's the magic of becoming that flame, right? Because when you are a woman who's acting in your desire, first of all, I believe in the experiences that I've had on this planet are that your desire is not yours. It is gifted to you or it is chosen for you or beyond you. chose it as much as you choose the things that you're going to do. You choose that desire. And when there is a choice to do anything else, that is not your highest desire, because the desire that you are here to fulfill on this planet, there are no plan Bs. There are no alternative pathways. It is, we will work this out. And the organizing principle of the world allows for that desire to come into effect. But equally, if you are acting from your own smallest desire, where it's like, one drop of what you're here to do. It's, not the ultimate thing either because other other people need to be affected by and showered in your desire because it heals us all simultaneously. ⁓ For the thing that I feel most deeply about the container that you're holding is that it is about networking. It is about grander effects ⁓ of this can unlock in you and you and you and you, and then equally in the audience. So you didn't come to the container, that's fine, come and buy a ticket and watch this because you will still be affected by a woman claiming her power, by claiming her eros and like walking through that. And I think ⁓ woman holding a big desire and other women come and step into it and add to it and make it bigger, it's very attractive to everyone around. is very attractive because you are, you know that moment where you said like in the dark night, I'm closest to God that crystallized and put into your creation, right? And so people come into your container and feel the closeness of that divinity, of that desire, of that pleasure. And I think that's really powerful what you're doing. And can even feel it just off the website, just from you speaking in this moment. speaker-0: Thank you so much. And I feel also with that, like, you know, I think a big part of my capacity to bring through a big desire was nervous system work I'd done with myself. I think it's equally as potent and beautiful for someone to, you kind of what you were saying to speaking to the smaller desires. Sometimes we don't have the nervous system capacity quite yet to hold big desires, you know, and And in that case, these smaller desires can be what activates us and stretches our nervous system capacity to be able to bring that safety for the bigger desires to come through. So yeah, think nervous system work, nervous system grounding, being with our nervous system is a really key part for a lot of women in all this work of like being able to hold our desires and our fears. speaker-1: And especially after such an important rupture to your system. You know, what I found in going through my own DV has been how do you then trust yourself again? How do you trust your body again? How do you actually find safety in the intimacy that you're trying to open? Because your connection with your arrows is the most deeply intimate part of you. It is your portal to who you truly are. And if you can't trust that, that affects every aspect of your life. And so I'm so curious, you know, I have my, my own things that I can share, but I'm so curious about for you, what was that in finding safety there again, after, after, feelings are violated, after feeling so that that could have been taken from you, how did you get it back? you, you know, how are you getting it back? I should say. speaker-0: Yeah, that's a powerful question. Firstly, starting with some of the experiences of the rupture, like some of those experiences would have been like flashbacks when certain things happened, certain parts of the body were touched, like having these flashbacks and that being like really intense and having to sit with that and move through that, letting that discharge through the system. Other signs of rupture. for me might've also been like numbness, disconnection, emotions when certain pleasure was being activated. these are some of the things I was experiencing that were the rupture. Knowing that that was a rupture, bringing it back to kind of what I was saying earlier is like sometimes the places where we've been wounded or had these ruptures, they're actually opportunities for us to go deeper. than we would if there was no rupture or scar there. Because there was flashbacks that I'd been experiencing, I had to be really present with my mind and my capacity at that moment of what I was experiencing, my breath of being able to guide my talk through it, my awareness of like, okay, this is, I'm going through a flashback or a trigger, something's triggered me and I'm reactivated. Okay, right now I'm noticing myself in a freeze kind of response or a flight or fight, fawn, whatever it is response right now. like having that awareness over self, like firstly, just even that awareness, that might be a deeper level of relationship to self that you might not have had had you not had a rupture. Had you not had a rupture, you might've just been going through the motions without having been needing to check in with yourself. Like what is my nervous system? doing right now. But instead, because the triggers will allow the flashbacks to allow it's like, okay, I have to be with myself right now and notice that I'm going through this and let myself go through that. You know, then then deepening those layers, like being with the parts of myself that were in freeze, parts of my body that were in freeze, like, okay, I'm going to allow this right now. What if I just fully let my body freeze? What if I then speak to my freeze and say, Thank you for freezing because I know you're protecting me. I know you're freezing because it's part of me that can't handle it all. So I see you and I acknowledge you and I thank you and I honor you. And sometimes just that being with self really help that freeze kind of melt away because you're giving that free space and permission. And then in that you've now speaker-1: And the validation of the work that it's doing, right? To protect you and you're thanking it and you're grateful for it. It's like, know, buddy, you were trying to keep me so safe and I'm so grateful, like, but I'm safe now. Like, let's work together. Both understand what safety can now be. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. It's such a beautiful thing. sometimes it needs to get that loud for us to learn that. So like once I'd learned that on a greater scale with moments of freeze that was so obvious, it then become much easier to do on that ⁓ and more subtle layers. Then I could see where there was just freeze or numbness in my body that might not have been from this big capital T trauma, but might've just been from. ⁓ not having to learn how to really be in relationship to my body. But having now learned that on a larger scale, I can now apply this to these more subtle situations and be like, okay, I can see this, you know, with techniques such as yoni mapping, really de-armoring and being with different places in my physiological pleasure and makeup, know, denumbing those places and just softening around that because I had learned that skill on a larger scale. speaker-1: And you're doing that yourself when it comes up or when you feel felt or you're doing that with a practitioner or how do you approach speaker-0: yeah, I think there is a lot of value in learning with different practitioners. And I think it's really great to also explore many different modalities, many different teachers go work on towards and everything has something to offer. It's there's no one right answer. I think it's like, ⁓ really, there's an intuition calling you towards something, go and follow that and see what it has to do and try different ways. Then take that and then bring it into your self practice and your relationship to self. Really, the practitioners are there to kind of give you a window or permission slip. But the real beauty is when you're able to take away, take it away and integrate that integration is probably the most important step to anything you'll do any, whether it's a wild women journey or a one on one with a practitioner, plant medicine journeys, integration is really when it just becomes a part of you. And that should really be held in the most sacred. Sometimes I feel like that can be a bit forgotten with the emphasis on the actual practitioner or the container itself. But actually the integration is then when we take everything we've learned and we put that into a practice in a way that feels natural and organic to us. So yeah, definitely. speaker-1: And persistent, long lasting, that's actually going to be part of you. Going back to the nervous system work that you were doing, I think it's really interesting when I've heard a lot of talk about regulating of your nervous system to come into this really micro place, where you can almost do nothing and it becomes so concentrated and people have been saying that in a negative way. As in, you you need to learn to hold more and, you know, be more. I think sometimes, and I'm interested in your aspects of the journey right after this happened, where you shrunk down and you contained just like the absolute bare minimum. What was the power for you in that where everything else that wasn't hypercritical or like really, really necessary, wasn't able to be held, wasn't able to be considered, wasn't able to have your attention anymore. Because another kinds of really potent shedding when your nervous system, you know, I don't want to say collapses, but concentrates. ⁓ speaker-0: I love that question and I love the way that you're bringing attention to that because that is so sacred. So often people just see the result of that. They might see me with wild women and be like, wow, here's a person living so fully in their light and purpose and all these wonderful things. But it's so beautiful you to speak for that time where the butterfly is falling apart in the cocoon. The caterpillar is disintegrating in the cocoon to be able to become a butterfly. For me, that time. So after 2020, I closed down my business and I came and moved up to Byron and lived in this beautiful little caravan on a property. And that was literally, I called it my chrysalis. And during that time, you know, I went from having this huge international business to that becoming bankrupt and having no idea what my next stages were. in that there was a lot of temptation to kind of go on to the next thing. Like you get a job or this. you know, society, you lose one job, meant to get another. And I've never been a job kind of person. I've always, the area's entrepreneur, capperizing, like, you know, I like doing my own thing. And I think the best decision I made for myself at that time, where everything in my nervous system was telling me to collapse and go in was wanting to just like cocoon. speaker-1: through it. speaker-0: The best thing I allowed myself to do was to actually do that. And so I spent maybe three or four years just sleeping basically, probably like just, just really, really inwards with myself, with my own energy and kind of like what you were saying, letting everything that wasn't serving me fall away. Like the belief that I was meant to get a job fell away. speaker-1: We speaker-0: fears around abundance that I had like, ⁓ maybe I need to make money. They all fell away. I kept being fine. It just worked out one way or another. Like that all just like fell away. And what I was left with was, just do what I want to do right now? Like, what do I just like want to do? And like sometimes it was just like, I want to do art. I want to like paint a little. I want to play an instrument. I want to go out and walk nature. I reframed everything to have that be just as sacred as like more than the things that I felt like I should do. Like the should do's might've been like, I should send out resumes and try and get a job, or I should try and figure out what my next steps are. ⁓ Instead, really gave my permission to just so fully collapse into that. you know, and I think a lot of people when they hear that, they might be like, ⁓ what about money? What about things like that? That is another thing that needs to fall away. You need to just like let that fall away. If I hadn't have fully done that, I probably wouldn't have found where I am today, feeling in alignment with myself, feeling abundant, feeling in my creativity and my purpose and my flow. It really was, you know, that stripping away everything that was not me where I could find like what was most true to my soul. speaker-1: I guess I asked you that question because I've been where you are or were ⁓ knew the immense pressure that comes from ⁓ society that ⁓ ⁓ and output and productivity and reels and ⁓ whatever you know that it is where it's all about living your best life and FOMO and I used to like long before all of this stuff happened I used to always be in the JOMO I'd be like I am so JOMO you know I don't want to be where you are I want to be where I am and so I am lucky that I have that and I'm of missing out speaker-0: I'm busy. speaker-1: I love that. am a Jomo baby. have zero fear of missing out on whatever you are doing. I am joyfully missing out. speaker-0: I love that. speaker-1: And so I not someone who knows loneliness because I've always had such a strong relationship with myself that ⁓ I, know, I really love my own company and I don't get a lot of it anymore as a mother. And so I ⁓ mourn for But I remember my own marriage breakdown and everything that was happening ⁓ me ⁓ this and so like everything that I had been through, just had this small baby, we were now homeless, I didn't know what I was going to do, left big successful careers and businesses and all of this and all I do every single day was live, I moved all of the... shoes outside of my closet. So like I put them in a cupboard outside and every day I would just lie on the bottom of the cupboard the dark and in container, be in that cocoon. And it was interesting because I remember one somebody saying to me like, what have you been up to these days? And you know, like my mind started to like ⁓ make excuses, but body just spoke. And I was like, I'm doing my most intense and potent work of my life. And I was like, ⁓ my God, what are you talking about? You're lying in the bottom of a cupboard. You are a loser. You have done absolutely nothing. You are spin doctor. What are you talking about? And this is what's happening in my mind. And body spoke again, which was like, and I don't even know what it is yet. And I was like, OK, fine. have to listen right now. I have to listen. And I stopped with the shirts of like, get out of this bloody cupboard, like do something. You have a kid, have to, like, what are you gonna do? And as I spent more and more and more silence and stillness, all of that finally one day just like disappeared and went away. I stayed a little bit longer in the cupboard. And then I graduated to the living room, and I would just lie on the living room floor. So that was cool, because I could fill up a bigger space. And then little by little by little. And I remember being like, how is this working? What is this doing? A lot of the time, I wasn't even consciously working with something. wasn't like, OK, let's, as you were saying, let's just. ⁓ stick with the freeze and melt it or whatever. I wasn't even doing that. Like a lot of the time it was just like, I'm dead. And then eventually what was interesting, the freeze unfroze itself by doing absolutely nothing and giving it the time to, I just would start spontaneously crying or just, like just some tears would come down or I would start laughing and then I would get up and be like, I'm going to make a garden. And so like, you know, these things where I had absolutely no energy all of a sudden would, you know, I would get up and I'd be like, I'm going to propagate everything from seed and I'm going to do this and this and this. we like started living off our garden. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to paint some campuses. have no talent for doing that. And that would happen. And then eventually it was like, I'm going to create this business. And the business walked into my life fully formed. And I was just. appointed the CEO of it. And I think what's really fascinating about your journey and the mirroring that's happened in mine. Is that if you are online and filling your mind with all of the things that you're not doing because of people's fake realities on the internet, you know, washing over you, you'll never understand what your real reality is. Like what's your coherence to your desire, to your portal, to your pleasure, to your eeros because you can't hear it. You can't, your body can't hold it. And I was interested what you were talking about in terms of like learning to hold more because for me it was actually getting rid of so much that I was holding that I shouldn't have ever held. And that was the space. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I think you make a great point. Like that absolutely needs to come first and coinciding with holding more. It's not necessarily about holding more, but sometimes actually in a sense that can be holding more because what you're actually doing is getting rid of the distraction and getting rid of what's not self. You know, cause it's very easy in our day and age to be distracted or to constantly fill our spaces with social speaker-1: I'm speaker-0: social media, whatever it is, that we don't have a lot of time to be bored these days the way we did those of us that remember growing up without the internet, you know, like we don't have a lot of space for boredom, but that is some of the most sacred work, like being on the bottom of the cupboard and just laying there. There's a reason a lot of people don't do that because then speaker-1: Things are hard. It's hard! You gotta sit with the demons in that cupboard. It's not just a fucking event. speaker-0: Yeah, And then ⁓ speaker-1: And I can tell you. a lot of energy, you need huge amounts of sleep and all you did was lie in a cupboard all day and now you need 12 hours of sleep. yeah, judgment that we put on that as a society of like, what is productive? What is economic value? What is economic gain? What a worthwhile life? It started to make a lot of sense to me that ⁓ if ⁓ everywhere ⁓ access the personal and deep self-power that I was able to, it was a privilege for me to be able to spend that amount of time lying on the ground. But I will say you have to choose your heart because as you said, money is one of the things that has to fall away in the pursuit of you getting to this truth. in letting money fall away, you start to actually understand that there's an enormous amount of information that we've never been given about what provides provision, not just money, but all of your needs being met and more. And then you start to how synchronicity works, how time actually works when money's not a factor. speaker-0: we've kind of been grown up in a society ⁓ raised in a society where we've made money our master and so ⁓ even really real Like it's an agree it's a collectively agreed upon currency of energy that we exchange and I think like yeah, I think money is an interesting one to talk about because I do think that can be a limitation for so many and also it can be ⁓ speaker-1: because speaker-0: such a portal for spiritual growth and development and trust in universe and provisions like what you're saying. Ironically, it was like letting go of that feeling like I needed to make money, returning to that trust of like, it doesn't look like I have any right now because my business just closed after 2020. I'm living in a caravan and I'm refusing to do anything that doesn't feel like an alignment. So that leaves me here laying on my caravan floor. not knowing where the next thing is going to come from, having to find the trust that it's going to come. The most beautiful thing that was developed was like that continual trust. It's going to work out. I'm going to be provided for. It's going to come one way or another. And ironically, it was like that letting go of money that actually brought me to a space of truly feeling abundant, being in my purpose and beautifully abundant from it, like making money from it and feeling like, okay, this money is deserved. Like I'm actually offering a lot of value. speaker-1: funny. speaker-0: I actually need to have this money to keep providing to others and not having any guilt about it. Being able to buy what I want when I want to buy it, not just financially, but mentally to know like, okay, I want to buy this right now, just buy it. Like not having to have that conversation in my head, is it too expensive? Is it this, is it that? Like giving myself the freedom and permission to just be like, if I want this, I'm just going to buy it. Like I know I'm going to be okay. And the more I develop, speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: that belief and that knowing in my body that nervous system capacity to spend money and to receive money, the more money will just like flow to me and come in and it's easy because that belief is now being reflected in my reality. speaker-1: The thing is, I would see that it would be very difficult for you to get on stage as this powerful presence, dancing, owning body, owning your self, taking up space, having all eyes on you, and feeling like you're not worthy of anything. The thing the abundance piece for you is like you So many women might not be able to get on stage because they've made money mean something about who they are. And so therefore, who am I to get on the stage and have people look at me? I'm not wealthy. I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this. I don't have this many followers. don't whatever it may be. There's another kind of like reclamation in that story of worth, right? In terms of like your material possessions, not just your internal possessions. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, this just brought to mind my most recent act I did with these Green Feather fans, actually. And it's interesting because it kind of does have this story with abundance because those fans were like three and a half grand. were like super expensive. They were like quite an investment. I wanted them at the beginning of my career and I was like, no, they're so expensive. And then I was like, no, but I'm doing this now. It's worth it. ⁓ But it's interesting you bring up this work because in buying these fans and going on stage with it, it was stepping into this version of me that was worth it. I then become someone that can hold these bands in my hand and have that represent. But actually what you were saying, what it brought up in me was like, okay, can you go on stage and feel unworthy and all these things? I think absolutely you can. Just because I'm on stage does not mean I feel fully worthy or any of that. In fact, like this most recent did with the fans. It was to Claire de Lune, which is a very classic, you know, Sally Rand feather fan song. It's been done throughout a lot of burlesque history and it's a really beautiful, emotional, classical piece with ⁓ lot of opportunity to step into a feel and feel emotion. ⁓ when I would come out on stage with those feather fans, that was ⁓ I this thing when I perform ⁓ where give myself mantras and things that I say in my own head. ⁓ And of them, doing this dance was I allow myself to be seen. I let you see me. I let you see these pieces. a lot of the times that piece that I was letting myself be seen in is this feeling of I'm not worthy or I'm ⁓ or I feel vulnerable or I'm scared to be seen or I'm scared I'm not worthy of this. And my intention going onto that stage, every time I danced with the fans and every time I repeated that mantra as I was performing, I let you see me, it was like I feel all these things and I wonder if you feel them too. Sometimes I don't feel worthy and I wonder if you feel them too. And I would repeat that in my mind as I dance with the fans and it became this really emotional dance. Often people would come to me afterwards and be like, ⁓ I teed up in that performance and I really cried in that performance. And I think a big part of it was like, I intentionally brought that part of myself to stage and be like, sometimes I don't feel worthy. I wonder if you feel that too. And I let myself be seen in that. So yeah, don't think you need to be someone on stage and be like, ⁓ they're fully confident. They have it all figured out. Like that is definitely not the case. You just do it imperfect. You just do it. You don't need to be any, just do it. Whatever it is. speaker-1: Sound. That's interesting that you said just do it imperfectly because for me the embodiment of all that you were in that moment is the perfection. It's the all sides of you. It's the prism and it's the kaleidoscope of who you be in the totality of you in that moment in truth and vulnerability. I think that's the part that's so... I don't know for me in that moment, you actually are claiming your worth because you're saying I am, I am the complexity of woman that can hold all of these competing aspects of self coherently in one and present them to you as a mirror or portal for you to reflect on your own. sense of complexity and your own sense of becoming and your own sense of unraveling. That's a woman of immense wealth and worth and complexity. speaker-0: And I think you say it so beautifully. It's like, for all the women looking to go into this journey, you don't need to be at any level. You just show up as you are in the wholeness of who you are. Even those parts that you self-reject, even in those parts that you self-abandon, they're allowed here too. Yeah. speaker-1: It's amazing. It's such an alchemical process for you, it turns out. The movement of your body and the movement of that which is arising in you, it's just like, it's felt, it's seen, it's ⁓ I remember when I saw you dance for the first time, I was crying. I was crying because I think you have ⁓ ⁓ of you that does connect to a much higher version of you. ⁓ and you bring that down and you share that and an invitational dancer, which an interesting thing to be as a ⁓ but interesting as a burlesque because that's the entire thing, right? ⁓ The art the striptease is not taking your clothes off. The art of the striptease is inviting someone into ⁓ you, into aura, into your world, into your erotic pleasure and that moment, it's the best dancers in the world and not the ones that can take off their gloves so slowly, but the ones who can fill the space with their presence as almost nothing happens. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And the reason I know that is because I thought I was going so slowly for such a long time and realizing when I watched the videos back, like, why am I taking off the gloves so quickly? what think in the moment is slow. Partly it's about detoxing from the speed of the world around you and other coming into this moment of like true slow present But the other part of it is. being comfortable enough and being worthy enough in yourself to be looked at when you're doing almost nothing. Because that has to in every way that we value personhood under a capitalist patriarchal system that has to go against it because you're not producing anything. You're not going with efficiency. You're not going with speed. You're not going to outcome. Faster or better than anyone else, you are stopping time in this moment. And what do you fill it with? You. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That's feminine eros. That's eros in general. How did you learn that? speaker-0: Well, just quickly speaking back to the performance you watched me in, it was one with my Chinese qipao and I come on stage and usually there's some other things I do in that space. And I remember that being an of the moment decision. I actually came out in that costume and I started it and I just stood there for what felt like an eternity because it is, it does, it is when you're on stage, there is a tendency to like rush or want to fill the space. because it's scary and you know, there's a lot of tension. But actually when you're feeling that tension and you can hold it, you make the audience also feel that tension with you. And yeah, that's really beautiful. But I remember that being an of the moment decision. I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to stand here with my eyes closed and I'm just going to be in this space and energetically present with all the women in the room. And, know, I mentioned I always kind of have this mantra and I was just like, you're all Queens too and just like emanating out that energy and then as the song cue started I just opened my eyes and I remember someone in the audience like gasping like my god speaker-1: I was right at the front and I was like... that woman and get her on my show it was the most powerful eye opening that I've ever done so my experience of you standing on the stage was you were standing there and I felt you filling up the tent with your energy like if you were emanating something out it was felt ⁓ the the women around me were like like showing like and we were all fixated on you everything stopped And then you just opened your eyes and it was like so auditory for me. was like, my God. Like it was just like you arrived and ⁓ was really embarrassed. was like, ⁓ my God. just like, like ruined her moment, it was just like so involuntary. was just like, ⁓ my God. Like, look at that. the ⁓ eyes were so and your ⁓ whole entire presence in your eyes and your body at that point. It was amazing. speaker-0: Thank you. Yeah, it's a cool feeling to just be like, let's fucking go. I think that's a joy of burlesque and performing. And I think a big part of it for me is also like letting go of self and letting it to be in devotion to, you the energy, the collective energy that was in the room. Like I'm dancing for everyone here and I'm letting myself insane for everyone here and just being so fully present. Going back to that. speaker-1: Hey speaker-0: ⁓ you know that definition of pleasure or orgasmic potential it's like losing the mind and just being so fully present and When i'm a space carrier or a performer the more that I can embody that the more that everyone else can also have that window of time to just be fully in the moment and present and Captivated by something and let go of all the worries in their mind or let go of anything that's going on in their life and just be present like the vibration that i'm offering in that moment and It's such a gift to be able to do what I do and I'm so thankful for it and I love it. I love getting to perform and I love sharing that magic with other women because I do think everyone has this magic in them, this unique expression to offer. speaker-1: We've got to wrap up, but I want to ask you just that one last question about that performance when you said, felt the tension in the room and I felt everybody else feeling it. Surely you didn't feel comfortable with that when you first started this art form? were the specific things that you've done to ⁓ your capacity to be in the discomfort, to be in the tension, to be in the pause between, ⁓ know, before the moment, you know, that build up? Is that just your performance, like persona who can do that? Or can you do that in your everyday life as well? Like hold that tension and be okay with it. speaker-0: For me personally, it's both. I think they play into each other. As I've learned to do that as a performer, I've also been able to learn to do that more in my personal life. And I think it's such a part of the essence of life. How do we hold the times of tension? How do we hold that liminal space of not knowing? How do we hold this like really intense charge in a moment in life or a moment on space and be with it and feel it? and not feel like we have to do anything or not feel like we have to escape it, but just be present with it. And it is just like a practice of awareness and presence. If we were just speaking to the world of performance, you know, as a performer, you'd feel that and you'd train your nervous system to be able to take that space and hold that tension. And then it becomes a point of loving that tension and enjoying that tension. And that's what I think is so great about burlesque. It's the art of tease. It's the art of living in that tension. It's seductive. It's beautiful. So can train that as a performer. Likewise, you can also train that in your personal life. ⁓ How you hold those moments of tension in your life more? ⁓ How you enjoy it as a tease? Like, I'm manifesting something and it's not yet coming and it's teasing me, but it's teasing me. speaker-1: You know, I love that. speaker-0: as well. So yeah, I think it's a bit of both. speaker-1: Or when somebody says something to you that's like terrible and like cutting and you could respond and react or you could play with that tension and let them feel what they've just said or squirm or whatever or in the positive way, know, like, you know, in, in seducing. That is, I have to say that is something that I could definitely work on as a person to, to not be so fast, to not be so quick. to respond, to things down. And as I said, like when I thought I was going the slowest in the world and taking my glove off and I watched the video back and it was like hyper speed, I was like, ⁓ my God, like there's so much room for improvement here. So you seem to have mastered that amazingly. ⁓ speaker-0: at times. speaker-1: ⁓ All right, Hannah, thank you so much for this conversation. I to just reflect what I've personally gotten out of it, which is speaker-0: Really? speaker-1: I think the biggest takeaway for me is the way in which you can slow down the world in order to come into stillness or silence, in order to actually create something from it. So whether it's in a performance in your your artist's introduction, whether it's in your personal life and taking time in the moments between the liminal spaces or whether it's in rebuilding after huge collapse. and taking that time that you need. That for me has been the biggest takeaway, biggest points of validation. I have so enjoyed seeing you and meeting you in this moment. I have enjoyed being seen by you. And I am so grateful for the fact that one day I will say, yeah, I saw Cha Chao Beng one day, know, 20, 30 years ago when she was just an itty bitty thing coming out. and doing her shows and now she's this worldwide global international star changing women's lives all over the world. So it is a true honor to have been able to... you bless me with your time in addition to your show and your talent and your presence and your wisdom. speaker-0: Thank you so much, Kait That's so beautiful to receive. And thank you for all that you're doing on Becoming Flame and creating a space for conversations like this that really mirror the depth that you've cultivated in yourself to be able to ask such insightful questions and carry the conversation to such deep places that I think are really going to help a lot of women. So thank you for all the work that you do and for giving me this opportunity to be seen as well. I'm so thankful. speaker-1: How can they find you? What if they wanted to join one of your containers and be a wild woman themselves? speaker-0: you can find us on our Instagram, wildwomen.army ⁓ or our website, www.wildwomen.army or you can find me personally on my Instagram at cha-cha.berlesque. speaker-1: Amazing. And thank you so much for everything that you do and the magnification of your eros in the society and the fact that you're cultivating all these other women behind you to do the same. And you placed a ripple in the ocean. I love it. So thank you very, very, very much. We will put all of your contact details in the show notes below. You can find Hannah and I really really encourage you to do. She's got amazing videos on her Instagram so if you need to zoom scroll, zoom scroll on her page because at least it's uplifting and ⁓ speaker-0: our YouTube too. can check out our YouTube handle is at wildwomen.tv. Yeah, ⁓ got a lot of videos there and videos of our full show as well that have been going viral. So if you want to just sit and watch a burlesque show for an hour and a half, you can ⁓ the whole show. ⁓ speaker-1: Thank you, everybody. Have a great day. speaker-0: Thank you! This has just been the most amazing conversation and I feel so juicy and yum! speaker-1: I'm so glad that you willing to go with me in some those conversations and open up about your, the things that have happened to you, but how you've created art from them. And I think that that more than anything is exactly what this is all about, this work. It's just about being an inspiration to someone who's in it in this moment and being like, you're not dead. And I love that you said, I did nothing for three years. So if you're in that place, it's OK. speaker-0: Yeah, I love the way you validated that for all women as well. I think like anyone listening to that podcast, like people do battle with that. You know, ⁓ you get it all the time. People are like, my God, I'm doing nothing. And they get hard on themselves. And I think we do constantly need to hear like, that's okay. And I feel like you mirrored each of like the conversation, like you really mirrored and brought your own vulnerability and stories to it and insight to it. And that was so beautiful for me to receive and hear yeah, speaker-1: just show up and be vulnerable and you just be like, I'm not sharing my story, you just share yours. You're the guest you know, I think, I think the power of the alchemy happens when two women accept to be raw and share it, you know, rawness on stage versus your rawness in the podcast, which one's more powerful, they both are, you know. speaker-0: Sorry. Yeah, you're an amazing interviewer. you're going to do great. think this whole class is going to blow up. speaker-1: Say it 25 times louder. speaker-0: Blow the fuck up! really, people need this. And people need someone that can take guests to this place within themselves and offer the audience all the depth that you have to share. speaker-1: thank you, Hannah. Thank you. I