Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Leadership, Licensure & the Future of EdTech | Dr. Steven Baule on Building Better Schools

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Leadership, Licensure & the Future of EdTech | Dr. Steven Baule on Building Better Schools · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
0:03
podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:29
This EdTech podcast. Today we are joined by Stephen
0:34
Ball, associate professor in leadership education,
0:38
director of K -12 administrative licensing programs
0:41
and director of the educational doctorate program
0:43
at Winona State University. Steve served as a
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district leader for 19 years and a building leader
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for five. Originally a social studies teacher,
0:53
he regularly presents on educational technology
0:55
and leadership topics. He has authored over 250
0:59
publications spanning educational technology,
1:03
history, libraries, and leadership. Steve holds
1:06
a PhD in educational leadership, in supervision,
1:09
and has received numerous honors from the American
1:12
Association of School Librarians, the National
1:15
School Boards Association, Positive Behavioral
1:19
Interventions and Supports, the State of Illinois,
1:21
and the U .S. Navy for his contributions. He
1:24
was awarded the Van Miller Distinguished Scholar
1:27
Practitioner Award by the University of Illinois,
1:30
named one of eSchool News' Top 10 Tech -Savvy
1:34
Superintendents, and recognized as a Hashtag
1:37
Future Ready Superintendent by President Abal.
1:41
Steve, we're thrilled to have you join us on
1:43
the podcast and look forward to hearing your
1:45
questions. Sorry, I got to repeat that part.
1:48
Steve, we are thrilled to have you join us on
1:51
the podcast and look forward to hearing your
1:52
experiences and insights on the future of education.
1:56
Thanks. Glad to be here. Yeah, Steve we really
1:59
appreciate you taking some time out of your day
2:02
and in joining us here to hopefully have a great
2:06
conversation around technology and education
2:08
and we look forward to Kind of having the opportunity
2:13
to maybe see you again this summer at a conference
2:15
that David is going to present at so Or that
2:19
David is organizing But boy that was quite the
2:22
impressive list of things that David just rattled
2:25
off there, you know But let's, let's kind of
2:28
take you a look back before all of those things,
2:30
right? What inspired you to kind of take on the,
2:34
the hat and the role of an educator? Well, as
2:38
a kid, I always wanted to be a history teacher,
2:40
right? That was always kind of one of my original
2:43
plans. And so, you know, I joined the army in
2:47
part to pay for school in part, cause I, my father
2:50
had been in the service. And so I wanted to,
2:54
to serve as well. And it's. You know, when you
2:56
look at that, uh, when I was in college and high
3:01
school, you know, I wasn't necessarily a huge
3:03
technology person. You know, we had computers
3:05
and the Apple twos and all that sort of stuff
3:07
and didn't do much for me. But when I went through
3:10
the infantry mortar, uh, platoon officers course
3:13
at Fort Benning, um, and they started giving
3:16
us the mortar ballistic computer to use and figuring,
3:18
oh, wow, if they're going to give technology
3:20
to infantrymen is time to learn something about
3:22
technology. All right. And so. between that and
3:26
the instructional design courses at the university
3:28
of Iowa, but I took as part of my master's that
3:31
kind of drove me then into the instructional
3:33
technology world and ended up getting a, you
3:36
know, a doctorate in education in instructional
3:38
technology from Northern Illinois and really
3:41
saw, Hey, this is the way the future is coming.
3:44
Um, have, you know, we've been doing that for
3:46
a long time, right? Every new technology is going
3:49
to solve the world's problems. I particularly
3:51
like it when, you know, Thomas Edison and McCluskey
3:54
talked about the fact that by the end of the
3:57
1920s, they'd have to use the army to keep this
4:00
kids out of school at night because they were
4:02
going to just be so excited for educational film
4:04
that, you know, they wouldn't be able to just
4:07
go home. They'd have to stay there and that would
4:09
get rid of all textbooks. So we've heard this
4:11
a couple of times before, but it never, you know,
4:14
there's always a little more balance there about
4:16
where we go with technology. And that's, that's
4:19
the key I think is keeping some sort of balance
4:21
there. And sometimes it's just the tool then
4:24
that kind of changes, right? You know, it was
4:26
film at one time, you know, it's a calculator,
4:28
you know, another time. And now maybe it's a
4:31
little bit even more AI, but, uh, yeah, I, there's
4:34
always kind of this, this build up, this anticipation,
4:37
I think that comes with that. I think it is.
4:39
It's, it's, you know, cause it's new, right?
4:42
It's, it's the, you know, the hype cycle. We're
4:44
all excited about it to solve the world's problems
4:46
and kind of go down and it kind of levels off
4:48
and, um, We just have to realize that's a constant
4:52
sort of in our society today. And Steve, so like
4:59
for our region, you know, Jeremy's in a different
5:03
region than myself, but we both work with a lot
5:06
of different schools. And so typically like I
5:10
work with a lot of superintendents, for example,
5:12
and I always feel like each school and superintendent
5:16
approaches things differently in a variety of
5:19
areas, right? even, you know, for my purposes
5:22
and what I'm helping them with, tech integration
5:25
is always approached differently. And some are
5:27
much more, you know, maybe more inclined to adopt
5:31
some technology innovations and some maybe not
5:33
so much. So for you, when you were the superintendent
5:38
and, you know, you had those accolades that came
5:41
about, like the tech savvy superintendent, what
5:44
were the things that you were doing with tech
5:46
integration at the district level? that kind
5:49
of earned you those accolades or how did you
5:51
approach it? Well, I think the approach is really
5:54
the most important thing. Right. And it's it's
5:56
the issue of stepping back and make sure that
5:58
there's for everything that you're doing, there
6:00
is an instructional or an administrative imperative.
6:03
Right. When I was a, you know, assistant soup
6:06
for technology or tech director before that,
6:09
you know, every time a new tool would come out,
6:11
you get people won't have got to have this. And
6:14
people occasionally go, well, why aren't you
6:15
excited about this? Well, I haven't figured out
6:16
how we're going to use it instructionally yet.
6:19
Right. And so, you know, you got to focus on
6:22
what's the actual mission of the organization,
6:25
which is generally speaking, to provide efficient
6:28
and effective instruction. Right. And so everything
6:32
should drive towards that. My very first tech
6:36
plan ever just asked two questions. You know,
6:39
basically what would you like to do with your
6:41
students right now that you can't. And then what
6:44
are the administrative processes that currently
6:46
impact your ability to focus on instructional?
6:49
things, right? And teachers responded. In one
6:55
thing I was lucky, I always got good response
6:57
rates from the surveys that I did. And I still
6:59
survey people a lot. You've all probably gotten
7:02
surveys from me recently about, you know, AI
7:05
and education. But after I did the survey, I
7:09
would always feed the information that we gathered
7:12
back to the staff and so that they would be able
7:14
to see it and see that we were actually going
7:17
to work and move forward based on their feedback.
7:21
And I think that was always very helpful because
7:22
I'd have other administrators going, you know,
7:24
I survey people, they don't, you know, they don't
7:26
respond. I'm like, well, we work really hard
7:29
to say, Hey, thank you for your information.
7:31
This is how we're going to use it. But that key
7:34
is having that ability there to really, you know,
7:39
say this is what we're doing and have a plan,
7:42
make sure everybody knows what the plan is and
7:45
make sure that There's a roadmap that everybody
7:49
can kind of follow Does that make sense? Yeah,
7:53
it seems like you're you're kind of you know
7:55
being very transparent with the direction that
7:57
you're going but also very intentional right
8:00
and I think if people are able to see You know
8:03
where you're trying to get to in the path and
8:05
the steps that it takes to get there I think
8:07
that really helps to bring those people on board
8:09
So, you know, would you say that that then is
8:12
a key thing to help kind of build? those initiatives
8:17
successfully to help scale technology within
8:20
a district to get the buy -in from, you know,
8:23
the concerned groups, the stakeholders that are
8:26
going to be affected by its outcomes? Well, yes.
8:29
And you always want to, you know, if possible,
8:31
especially at senior leadership levels, be very
8:34
clear, you know, set goals up front. So for instance,
8:36
when we went to one -to -one devices, you know,
8:39
a little over a decade ago, you know, I gave
8:42
the teachers who were going to be the pilot group
8:44
about an 18 month window. Right and say, Hey,
8:47
here's what we're planning. I had already had
8:49
the IT folks kind of doing their work to make
8:52
sure that, you know, we were going to have the
8:54
necessary bandwidth improved and things like
8:56
that. So that by the time we actually got there,
9:00
they'd had, you know, a good six months of experience
9:03
working with the devices in class sets and other
9:06
ways. They'd had the PD they wanted. They'd been
9:09
able to go to conferences. And with the board,
9:12
we'd been very clear, Hey, these are what our
9:14
expectations are. because if you don't set your
9:17
expectations up front, then no matter how it
9:20
ends up, people are gonna spin it one way or
9:22
the other, right? Either, oh, that was great,
9:24
you had 70 % improvement, well, we were looking
9:27
for 80, right? And so you have to have kind of
9:30
very clear goals right up front of how you're
9:32
gonna measure things too, I think helps. But
9:35
the more timeframe you can give them, and I know
9:37
other districts where the IT director found out
9:40
they were gonna go to one -to -one when the iPads
9:42
actually showed up on the loading dock. because
9:45
the superintendent wanted to say, hey, we have
9:47
one -to -one devices, but there'd been absolutely
9:49
no planning involved. And obviously that was
9:53
not a successful iteration, right? That the planning
9:56
is just essential. I think I came from an experience
10:00
similar to what you described, right? And our
10:03
district was talking about going, and this was
10:06
when I was back in the classroom, and our district
10:08
was talking about going one -to -one iPads also.
10:11
And it was very much a process of where teachers,
10:17
I think I had the device myself because I was
10:19
asked to be one of those leaders, the ones that
10:22
are going to help drive the... the learning that
10:25
the staff will need to go through first and I
10:28
probably had it about 18 months before a student
10:30
ever touched one and then after I had it for
10:33
about a half a year then that one following school
10:35
year it went to all of the different staff got
10:38
it and they got you know adept at using them
10:41
and I think at the same time finding the way
10:44
that it will become that instructional tool not
10:47
just hey we want to rush to get these in to people's
10:50
hands because it's the latest pad but you know
10:53
trying to find ways is to prep the staff, make
10:56
sure they're ready. And then, you know, it'll
10:58
be a much more seamless and successful rollout
11:01
to students. Not that there's not going to be
11:03
bumps in things you're going to have to adjust
11:05
to along the way. But I think it became, I think
11:09
it became the blueprint that I think others tried
11:11
to follow as well. Yeah, no, there are, there
11:13
are always going to be bumps along the road,
11:15
right? With any, any plan. And so the key there
11:19
is just making sure that as you do it, you have
11:22
a good process for who's going to intervene,
11:25
right? Who to go for to, for help. Yeah. And
11:31
I, I think, uh, listening to some of the stuff
11:33
that you had mentioned, Steve, about, um, getting
11:37
the perspectives of your staff, I think are,
11:40
are extremely important now, particularly with
11:43
AI. We do a lot of trainings on AI, um, you know,
11:47
over the last couple of years here. And that's
11:50
another area, again, where you have, you know,
11:52
everybody's kind of in a different spot in terms
11:55
of their adoption, whether it be the district
11:58
itself or just even individual teachers. And
12:01
so I think those are extremely important things.
12:05
So if we shift a little bit into EdTech trends
12:08
and digital literacy, if you look at the way
12:15
that AI has come about, and has evolved in the
12:18
last just year to two years here. And you're
12:22
looking at K through 12 education. What, from
12:26
your perspective, what are the biggest shifts
12:30
that you've seen in technology and how it's integrated
12:34
in those areas, both of AI and digital tools?
12:39
Well, the simplest thing is it's no longer supplemental,
12:43
right? I mean, historically, technology was sort
12:47
of supplemental to the core textbooks. It's now
12:50
core to the instructional process, or hopefully
12:52
it is, right? An English teacher told me a long
12:56
time ago when I was in system principal that
12:59
basically if we were a primitive tribe, I'd be
13:02
the witch doctor. I don't know if that was a
13:04
good thing or a bad thing, right? I think it
13:06
was good. But we've progressed to the speed that,
13:10
you know, Things continue to change, um, the
13:13
tech and learning, you know, newsfeed that I
13:15
get every morning had like three articles about
13:18
general things and then six different things
13:21
about AI. Cause that's like the number one thing
13:23
everybody's trying to learn in AI is a tool and
13:27
it's a set of tools, right? And we're at the
13:29
very beginning of that. If you look at like the
13:31
five tiers of potential AI, we're not even really
13:34
at tier two yet. where they'll start to have
13:37
intelligent agents. I'm waiting because 2025
13:39
is supposed to be the year of the intelligent
13:41
agent. I'm still waiting for it to really be
13:44
there and help me. And that will be helpful,
13:47
I think. But I think the bigger issue is we're
13:50
moving from, you know, we digitize stuff, right?
13:53
But now it's how are you using the data that
13:56
is being collected, right? We've all heard of
13:58
big data. And so we've moved from, you know,
14:01
the internet to the internet of things. And now
14:03
we're talking about the internet's a behavior.
14:05
Right. And I think actually the internet of behavior
14:09
though has real Orwellian big brother potential
14:13
in one respect. Right. It also has the ability
14:15
to really help our students with special needs.
14:19
Right. So, you know, just like right now you
14:22
have a service dog that can identify potentially,
14:25
um, some issue with, you know, somebody who's
14:28
about to have a seizure. It wearable devices
14:31
are going to be able to watch students. and potentially
14:35
identify before they act out, for instance, and
14:38
really hopefully change some of the climate that
14:40
we've had issues with students who have significant
14:43
disability issues and have difficulty in the
14:45
classroom. Right. And that I think has potential.
14:48
There's also there the potential to, you know,
14:53
go too far in really, you know, hinder students
14:56
from being students. And so all of that has to
14:58
be pretty balanced. And there are a lot of ethical
15:00
issues that have to kind of be addressed through
15:03
that, but. Being able to intervene in a behavior
15:07
way may be better than having to just put kids
15:09
on medicine. Right. And so I think that next
15:13
step of really digitizing or going to dataization
15:17
from digitization is probably where we're going.
15:20
If that makes sense. Okay. I apologize for that.
15:27
I had to answer a phone call. Um, I'm the only
15:30
one in our office today, everyone, at least,
15:33
at least until after lunch. And then, uh, so
15:36
I probably missed half of your answers. If this
15:38
next question, does it make sense? I was going
15:41
to ask you quick, Steve. Um, we don't, we don't
15:43
have to include this if you don't want to, uh,
15:46
have you heard of, um, Manus yet? That one that
15:49
got released like a week or two ago. I have,
15:51
it was so, so I just came across it. We were.
15:55
I haven't dug too much into it, but I just came
15:58
across it like, uh, last week, cause we were
16:01
putting a newsletter together, but Manus is the
16:04
one that they're, they're claiming is like the
16:07
first general AI. Um, I don't know what that
16:11
all entails. So yet, but, uh, they had like,
16:16
uh, I actually have me see what's interesting.
16:19
Yeah. Cause supposedly open AI has an AGI tool,
16:24
right. active general intelligence tool, uh,
16:30
inside, but they're thinking that probably they
16:33
just said that to gather more venture capital
16:35
funding. Sure. I don't know if that's true or
16:38
not, but, uh, you know, is it M -A -N -I -S?
16:43
Uh, M -A -N -I -S. I was going to drop it. I
16:45
just dropped it in the chat. Um, like I said,
16:48
I haven't checked it out a ton, but they, this
16:51
is one where they like actually are claiming
16:53
now that it's gender. Generative AI, um, AGI.
16:58
Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see. Um, yeah, sorry. Go
17:05
ahead. Yeah. Well, and obviously these tools,
17:10
right. Are going to then be able to drive more
17:13
intelligent tutoring. Yes. Right. So that's,
17:18
I think a real potential because small group
17:22
instruction can really change. Right. If the
17:25
student can work with a tutor and then a teacher,
17:28
cause there's still a need for human agency.
17:30
All right. No matter what I say, don't interpret
17:33
that and say that we want to get rid of the human
17:35
teacher. We've been trying to do that since the
17:37
1500s. Right. People have a book now, all the
17:40
world's knowledge is at their fingertips. Right.
17:43
There's a, uh, old article called technologies
17:46
and Messiah. Um, there was an ed education digest
17:49
from like September. of 1993 or 94, I think 94,
17:54
that talked about the fact that, you know, this
17:57
was a speech originally that the university of
17:59
Trier president gave at the beginning of the
18:02
school year in like the 1560s. I don't believe
18:04
you if it really did, because I've never seen
18:06
the original document, but it's a great urban
18:09
legend that we've been dealing with this issue
18:11
forever. We're not going to get rid of teachers,
18:13
right? There still needs to be a human to say,
18:15
Hey, this works. This doesn't work. But the ability
18:19
to offload. some of the repetitive tasks to a
18:24
tool, that seems pretty exciting. Right. Yeah.
18:30
So one of the things that you talk about is definitely
18:32
this role of technology. especially that I like
18:37
how you had said, it's not a supplemental thing
18:40
now, it's becoming a core essential thing in
18:43
order for delivering of instruction, right? And
18:46
so then to me, something that is, I think also
18:50
a really important component that needs to go
18:51
along with that is the digital literacy piece,
18:54
right? If this is gonna be a core essential thing
18:56
that our teachers and our students are gonna
18:58
need to have. What do you see as kind of the
19:02
important characteristics of that digital literacy
19:04
that we should be providing? That's an excellent
19:07
question, right? In fact, I've been thinking
19:11
about that ever since David approached me about
19:14
speaking on that topic in August, right? And
19:16
I don't have a great answer yet, right? I still
19:19
have a lot of potential, right? There's somebody
19:21
just posted here the seven literacies that people
19:24
need to go forward, talk about, but it's definitely
19:27
more than the tech skills. It's how do you build
19:30
the critical thinking? As I've spoken to people
19:34
about assessment, for instance, I've talked about
19:37
really flipping Bloom back to the original version
19:40
of Bloom, right? Which has, you know, creating
19:43
is now at the top of Bloom. Well, degenerative
19:46
AI tools can do all the creating you want. So
19:48
we need to go back to analysis, synthesis, and
19:51
evaluation. And those are sort of the key focus,
19:54
I would say, going forward for assessment. Right.
19:58
If AI can generate the answer is probably not
20:01
a good test question. Right. And we know lots
20:04
of people spend lots of time trying to figure
20:05
out how to make kids not cheat at all levels,
20:09
right. From kindergarten all the way up. But
20:12
the issue is how do they use those tools effectively
20:15
to enhance the evaluation synthesis and, you
20:19
know, and analysis. So they get good materials
20:22
based on what's out there and can be generated.
20:25
Right. Like. When I, you guys probably aren't
20:30
quite as chronologically hindered as I am at
20:32
this point, but you don't have the issue of,
20:35
you know, when I went into the library to do
20:37
my comp, you know, my composition paper as a
20:40
junior, we were excited to find a couple of sources.
20:44
Right. I used to say I could, you know, today
20:47
I could do my composition on 17th century book
20:50
making or boot making or whatever. And, you know,
20:54
I'd find a thousand. articles, plus videos on
20:57
how to do it in about 10 minutes. So it's the
21:00
issue of how to go through call and the critical
21:03
thinking and media literacy to really identify
21:05
these are the most important resources, right?
21:10
They're supported. They're, they're from good
21:13
reputable journals or, you know, people, professionals
21:18
in their areas, not You know, when we're used
21:22
to look for information on wolves, right, for
21:24
a biology assignment, I'd say, if you find Bob's,
21:27
you know, Lycanthrope website, don't give that
21:29
a lot of credibility. Now, and I'm not trying
21:33
to diss the werewolf people among us, but, you
21:36
know, that's not a great resource probably. Same
21:39
concept, right? Look for where those sources
21:41
are coming. And the other issue is how do you
21:46
integrate that digital literacy all through the
21:48
curriculum? So it should never be a separate
21:51
kind of thing. It has to be totally integrated.
21:53
Again, another opportunity to really use those
21:56
library staff and get them in there and make
21:58
sure that they're helping people find information
22:01
effectively, because their job is more important.
22:03
Now we think, oh, get the internet. Why do we
22:04
need librarians? Well, because there's too much
22:06
information out there. They have to help you
22:08
sort it. For my graduate students all the time,
22:13
a great shout out to Kendall Larson and the rest
22:15
of the library staff at Winona State. They are
22:17
fabulous. to help my students get through all
22:20
the information and find what they need. But
22:22
they have a set of skills that every student
22:24
isn't getting exposed to and they really need
22:27
to be. Right. And then the key beyond that is,
22:31
okay, from digital literacy, how does that incorporate
22:33
what we really need to know about cultural literacy?
22:37
Right. And that was one thing that, that survey
22:40
I mentioned before about educators and AI. I
22:45
was amazed how many people responded from the
22:47
K -12 world while our district doesn't let us
22:49
use those tools. Or, and I'd love to know who
22:52
the individual is, so if they're listening to
22:53
here, please reach out to me. There was an Ojibwe
22:56
teacher who was talking about the fact that,
22:58
you know, nothing her students try to do with
23:02
the language comes up properly in AI because
23:05
there's such a small group of materials to train
23:08
from, right? And so how is that going to have
23:11
an impact on indigenous languages? And how are
23:13
we going to keep those cultures engaged as well
23:17
in a world that's, you know, I was in Iceland
23:19
last summer and everybody speaks English and
23:22
every student does. And they're like, well, because
23:24
of the internet. Right. And so we got to figure
23:28
out how we're going to manage those other cultures.
23:31
And I think digital literacy now has to be more
23:34
encompassing of all of that process, if that
23:37
makes sense. Yeah, I think it totally does. Otherwise,
23:41
I think we run the risk here, especially as we
23:44
progress with AI, of further expanding that digital
23:48
divide. And it's not just along economic lines,
23:53
necessarily, or racial lines, but it could be
23:57
culturally here as well. And I think you hit
23:59
on a really good point there. Yeah, I like the
24:02
point you brought up too, Steve, about the...
24:05
about like there's there's just an overwhelming
24:08
amount of sources and things available to us
24:11
that It kind of reminds me of like the you know,
24:15
too many choices Paradox like the consumer paralysis,
24:19
you know, like you go to the store There's just
24:22
so many options that you don't know what to get
24:24
but it's more like we have so many sources available
24:27
to us and it's more so sifting through to find
24:29
ones that are actually valuable sources And,
24:33
you know, you crediting the library at the university
24:36
there. Well, and they are essential to the process,
24:41
right? And especially now as you see so many
24:44
summary tools that are out there on the internet,
24:46
um, and like the deep search tool that's part
24:50
of Gemini, right? It'll go out and do the searches
24:52
for you. Okay. How are they doing it? So for
24:54
instance, being the same survey results, I had
24:57
them in survey month and I was going through
24:59
and I asked it to identify. you know, what things
25:03
were statistically significant. And that made
25:06
my life easier because I didn't have to test
25:08
every statistic, right? But when I went actually
25:10
back and did the statistical calculations, they
25:14
didn't always agree with what the AI tool told
25:16
me, right? So I'm like, okay, you know, the AI
25:23
tools, again, that they're all black boxes kind
25:25
of, right? So you have to really be able to step
25:27
back and know to check. Right. And go back to
25:31
traditional tools to do that work. And I think
25:35
that's going to be the biggest, you know, step
25:37
forward of how do we continue to get people to
25:40
look at those tools and not just say, well, you
25:43
know, I can do it, um, with AI. So I don't need
25:47
to learn how similar to like a hundred years
25:50
ago in the, you know, what you see is what you
25:53
can get. Um, HTML editors came out. Right. When
25:56
I first learned HTML, I did it in basically a
25:59
Word document or a text file. And I always told
26:02
people we should still teach that way first because
26:05
if they don't learn those tools, right, they
26:07
don't want to actually code. Then when they have
26:09
a problem with the editors, they're not going
26:12
to be able to clean stuff up. And I still find
26:14
that today in our LMS, you know, that there'll
26:17
be an HTML line that I can just go in and clean
26:19
out. But most of my peers couldn't because they
26:21
never learned the basic coding of how to do that.
26:25
Right. And so that's definitely as we look at
26:28
digital literacy, how much coding does have to
26:30
be involved, right? You don't have to be an expert
26:32
and especially with AI, right? The problem is
26:36
you have to know enough to know how to ask AI
26:38
to help you with the code. Right. I mean, it'll
26:42
take a good coder and make you great and fast.
26:46
It will not take somebody who's not a coder and
26:49
turn them into a computer scientist. Sure. Yeah.
26:54
Yeah, the, um, so looking at, uh, just some of
26:58
the, you know, obviously you're talking about,
27:00
you know, learning and staying up to speed. Uh,
27:04
we talked a little bit about sources and things
27:05
like that. Is there anything, uh, thoughts you
27:08
have on like the ethical side of, um, being responsible
27:12
too? So not just like, you know, finding good
27:15
sources and being responsible in that way, but,
27:18
um, looking at technology use itself specifically
27:21
when it comes to students and teachers. and how
27:23
they should use it in the classroom, or even,
27:26
you know, tying in data privacy. Like, for example,
27:31
you know, one of the things that we have at our
27:33
disposal for our organization is Learn Platform
27:36
by Instructure. I don't know if you've heard
27:38
of that, but I think it's one of several different
27:42
versions out there, which basically allows for
27:46
us to check whether a tool is student data privacy,
27:50
right? in Minnesota, which you also are, have
27:54
a data privacy law. So we are always weary about
27:59
recommending tools that might not be using student
28:03
data appropriately. So with those growing concerns
28:07
that we have in technology use and data privacy,
28:11
how do you think that school leaders should approach
28:15
those so that they can get those to students
28:18
and teachers effectively? You know, the policy
28:22
development definitely has to tie in with all
28:24
the compliance with FERPA, for instance, right?
28:26
So there are some tools because within our Minnesota
28:29
state suite of tools, Copilot I know is FERPA
28:33
compliant, at least in the version that we use,
28:36
right? We have an agreement in place to make
28:38
sure that's the case. But same thing. We have
28:41
to make sure that's the case. The big issue always
28:44
becomes there's a balance between security and
28:49
usability. Right. And often I think because of
28:54
some of the issues some folks have had with,
28:56
you know, being hacked or ransomware attacks,
28:59
that we kind of focus too much sometimes on the
29:01
security side to the point that we all know that
29:04
if you make it so secure, it's no longer really
29:07
usable. And that's when the average teacher instructor
29:11
who doesn't understand the bigger picture always
29:13
is just going to go around. Right. And that's
29:16
when we have real data privacy potential problems.
29:20
Right. It's just like holding the door open for
29:22
somebody when they walk in behind you. Right.
29:25
You shouldn't really do that. You know, we get
29:27
the video every year that shows somebody doing
29:29
that, make them swipe their own card to come
29:32
into the building. Right. Um, but that that's
29:35
a basic physical security concept, but it goes
29:39
through this. And so teachers really need to
29:41
understand, you know, PII, you know, that the
29:45
individual information and how to make sure that.
29:48
They use it securely, not to ask for stuff you
29:51
don't need. Right. And then at the same time,
29:56
students really need to be aware of their digital
29:57
footprint. Right. And that needs to be taught
30:01
to them in an age appropriate way. I would argue
30:03
starting in kindergarten. I mean, I remember
30:05
having 16 year old in, in a high school office
30:10
with one of the deans and a police officer, because
30:13
she was chatting with somebody, you know, via
30:17
email back in the day and she thought it was,
30:19
you know, some other 17 year old kid. And it
30:21
was like a 35 year old sexual predator. Right.
30:25
And she's like, Oh no, he's seven. And like,
30:28
of course everybody in the internet, right. Tells
30:30
the exact truth. Um, they need to be aware of
30:33
that. Right. There was the old cartoon that the
30:35
internet doesn't know you're a dog. Right. If
30:38
you remember that, but there are a lot of other
30:39
people besides dogs out on the internet that
30:41
we need to make sure students are prepared to,
30:44
you know, to deal with. or be alert about, and
30:48
that's especially true as we talk about this
30:50
internet of behaviors, right? That is going to
30:53
know at four o 'clock every day, you know, you
30:55
go over to the ATM to get money out to, you know,
30:59
to go to happy hour for the weekend, you know,
31:01
weekend. And then you just happen to get an ad
31:04
for their bank, you know, at like 3 45 every
31:07
day on Friday. And so that's, I think really
31:11
important, you know, there's some pushback to
31:14
kind of push social media up. away from, you
31:17
know, earlier years, but, you know, people are
31:21
all carrying a smartphone and they have a smart
31:23
watch and all of that's tracking you. I'm amazed.
31:26
There was a study, uh, trying to think of the
31:29
name of the book. It's basically about the, um,
31:32
surveillance capitalist society we live in. Um,
31:37
Shoshona Zuboff, I think is the author. Um, it
31:41
kind of a scary book to read about all the information
31:44
that's being gathered. Like. You know, you'll
31:47
see ads for, um, like glucose monitors, right?
31:53
Right now, uh, the, the average glucose monitor
31:57
system is sending all sorts of extra information
32:01
back to the company that created that has nothing
32:03
to do with monitoring your sugar. Right. And
32:06
I think we need to make sure people are more
32:08
aware of that. And, you know, she takes pretty
32:12
much a very extreme argument, but I necessarily
32:14
think she's wrong. Right. The key is how much
32:16
of that invasion can we sort of tolerate in society
32:21
until we have to go move into a cabin in Montana.
32:24
Right. You know, you remind me a little bit and
32:27
I want to say this was a Ben Franklin quote,
32:30
but you know, you know, if you're willing to
32:33
give up too much security to get your liberty,
32:35
you deserve neither security or liberty. Right.
32:39
But there's definitely the gist of the Ben Franklin.
32:43
Do you want to compare me to Ben Franklin? I'll
32:45
take that all day. Well, great. Good compliment.
32:49
Steve, we're going to pivot here just a little
32:51
bit again and kind of go to a little bit of some
32:56
questions about, you know, preparing schools
32:57
for the future here. And, you know, given your
33:00
role or the many roles, one of the roles that
33:02
you have, right, is to help support K -12 administrative
33:07
licensing programs within your university and
33:11
in a broader sense here too. But how do you see
33:14
leadership preparation evolving to help support
33:18
some of the digital transformations that we've
33:20
been seeing, especially in schools? It's funny,
33:24
I always tell my leadership students that if
33:26
anybody asks you the question, what's your leadership
33:28
style? You know, they've never been in charge
33:30
of anybody in their life, right? Cause all leadership
33:32
is situational, right? So you have to kind of
33:35
prepare your students to be able to deal with
33:39
a range of potential situations, right? Everybody
33:42
wants collaborative leaders, but you don't really
33:44
want to collaborate a collaborative leader if
33:46
you have a bomb threat or a fire, right? You
33:49
want somebody who's going to make quick decisions
33:50
and send people in the right direction. And so
33:52
you need people who can really think through
33:54
systems, right? And that's why I think that IT
33:58
background often helps leaders, but all leaders
34:01
I think today really need to understand that
34:05
professional development has to be ongoing. You
34:07
have to give real support. I was amazed at the
34:11
amount of teachers in that recent survey who
34:13
just said they need training. Many more people
34:16
said they're unaware of what's going on and they
34:18
need training to support it than said they weren't
34:21
using the tools. So that's kind of scary that
34:24
we have people using tools because they think
34:25
they should or they can, but feel they don't
34:28
really have the training need necessary to do
34:31
that. Right. But beyond hardware and software,
34:37
you know, there are a whole range of things that
34:39
leaders need to think about from like a support
34:42
standpoint. Right the technology isn't just buying
34:45
software hardware setting up a website, right?
34:48
There's so much more to it and That systems thinking
34:52
usually helps planning is huge, right? All leaders
34:55
have to be able to step back and really plan
34:57
but always be prepared To make adjustments right
35:00
because no plan is ever implemented without any
35:03
changes And I would tell they really need to
35:08
make sure that if they want technology used effectively,
35:10
it has to be as effective as a light switch,
35:13
right? 99 times out of a hundred, when you walk
35:16
into the classroom and turn on the light, assuming
35:18
you do that anymore now where everybody has sensors,
35:20
that just the lights go on, that it's going to
35:24
work, right? Because if it doesn't, then teachers
35:27
are going to pull back and use whatever they
35:30
used previously. Does that make sense? Yeah,
35:35
I think it's a good segue to just with with the
35:40
AI conversation is like we there's some schools
35:43
where I've gone to multiple times and it's definitely
35:46
the case that You know, we're in this area where
35:50
we we have to keep up with the advancements of
35:52
AI and For teachers professional development
35:55
in any area where they're you're attending like
35:58
eight days or their basic trainings that you
36:00
know start of the year like they're always new
36:03
things that they need to be aware of, but like
36:06
AI is moving so quickly that, you know, to keep
36:11
them all up on the advancements is kind of difficult.
36:14
And I would say that the schools that I've been
36:17
to that we've done some training for, I do feel
36:20
like the ones that have had us multiple times
36:23
are at an advantage than they're more aware of
36:27
some of the recent things that have occurred.
36:30
Whereas, you know, some schools we maybe went
36:32
through one common and they're still in kind
36:34
of that introductory area. So with knowing that,
36:39
you know, with the AI instance, do you see where
36:42
there's like, regardless of where you're at,
36:45
so if you're a school that's kind of still in
36:47
that introductory phase, um, or if you're in
36:51
where you've had a couple of different trainings,
36:53
you've been introduced to some tools. Um, Do
36:56
you think that there are practical steps that
36:58
every school can take to make sure that teachers
37:02
are prepared to integrate AI in some fashion?
37:07
Well, I think, you know, not just AI, but in
37:11
general, right? Any good training goes back to
37:13
the original point. Make sure any new technology
37:16
you're using is going to be a positive instructional
37:19
or administrative tool. Right. So figure out
37:23
what is the concern you have. Right. So one of
37:26
the early things a lot of people have used, like
37:28
the phraseology tools, um, in the paraphrasing
37:31
tools that are there in AI with either like Magic
37:33
School, Quillbot, or a couple that I can think
37:35
of offhand that I'd used in examples to take
37:39
something that is difficult maybe for, you know,
37:43
a high school student who's got some reading
37:45
disabilities and re -level the text for them.
37:49
Right. That's a very simple thing people can
37:52
use and say, Hey, I'm using this and then maybe
37:54
expand from it. Right. And give people small
37:58
things that they can be successful with and say,
38:01
Hey, yeah, this is very useful. And then, and
38:04
then move forward. Um, and so just have access
38:09
because that's why I'm a little concerned about
38:12
the districts that the teachers are saying, Hey,
38:14
well, they're not going to let us use AI tools.
38:17
You know, that's great, but the kids are still
38:19
going to use them. The key is they're going to
38:21
either use them under their own direction or
38:25
your direction and guidance. And I would prefer
38:27
that the educators provide direction and guidance.
38:30
Right. And kind of help them do what they need
38:33
to do. And so that's, I think the biggest step
38:37
is give people the ability to be successful,
38:39
provide that foundation for everybody. But then
38:42
when you have your pioneers, give them the ability
38:45
to push forward. Right. But that doesn't mean,
38:48
you know, and I can think of one example was
38:51
trying to get geography software into um, a library
38:54
a long time ago. Um, and the principal in all
38:57
the central office people were pretty sick of
38:59
me by that time with my hand out, looking for
39:01
things. So I went to one of the geography teachers
39:06
who had, he was retiring like any year, right?
39:10
He'd been there like 30 some years. He was the
39:12
union grievance chair. So he was somebody when
39:15
he walked in the principal's office, usually
39:16
got attention. And I just went down and kind
39:19
of told him, Hey, these are the potential things
39:20
we could do with the software. And then I just
39:22
walked away. Right. Next thing you know, the
39:25
principal's coming to me going, Neil wants this
39:27
geography software. What do we need to do to
39:29
make it happen? Right. It worked. Right. So go
39:32
to those people who are really good teachers.
39:35
Right. Cause everybody would agree. Neil was
39:37
a great teacher and it really worked out well.
39:40
I take a lot of pride in the fact that he was
39:42
going to retire and just moved to Arizona. And
39:45
because he gets so excited about the things technology
39:48
could do for his students. Instead of that, he
39:51
actually went down there and worked as a student
39:53
teacher supervisor for Arizona state. Right.
39:55
So we didn't lose him to the profession. We got
39:58
him excited about, Hey, there are new things
40:00
here. There's a new potential. And he was helped
40:02
to guide an entire new group of teachers into
40:05
the profession. And so you got to provide for
40:09
kind of everybody where they are, you know, it's
40:10
just like we asked teachers to differentiate
40:13
for our students, administrators and leaders
40:15
have to differentiate for their teachers. Right.
40:18
What do you need to move you to the next step?
40:21
And we often do that base, but then we don't
40:24
go farther than that. So a few people figure
40:26
it out on their own, but the majority lose a
40:29
lot of potential because there isn't that systemic
40:32
plan, right? In a perfect world, every single
40:36
teacher would have an individual professional
40:38
development plan, right? Just like Carl, Carlton
40:42
Washburn is mentioned in. Salman Khan's book,
40:47
The One World Schoolhouse, but I actually worked
40:49
in the high school district that the Winnetka
40:51
students moved into. And that Winnetka plan was
40:54
every student had an individual plan on what
40:57
they were going to do. And they still do to this
40:59
day. They started in the thirties, they still
41:00
have it today. But that's what we should have
41:03
for every student theoretically, right? And you
41:06
can't do that necessarily, but I do think if
41:09
we look back at what the progressive educators
41:11
wanted in the 1920s and thirties, The technology
41:14
that exists now can really help us move to a
41:17
lot of that work. So a lot of things that, you
41:19
know, John Dewey and Carlton Washburn and those
41:22
folks talked about wasn't possible necessarily
41:26
without massive amounts of time. Today, because
41:28
of technology, we might be able to do more of
41:31
those things. And so I think it's really time
41:32
to go back and look at those folks and look at
41:37
what were their thoughts and how can we potentially
41:39
implement those to make sure that You know, nothing
41:42
should be a one -shot PD kind of thing. Make
41:45
sure our teachers are really getting long sustained
41:48
support. I don't know. I think I wandered away
41:52
from your question a little bit there. Sorry.
41:54
I do that. No, I completely understand that.
41:59
The whole wandering thing. That's the way my
42:01
brain works all the time. So, you know, just
42:05
pull us back here a little bit then. You know,
42:09
you look a little bit at school leadership, you've
42:12
talked a little bit about educators too, but
42:14
also let's touch a little bit on students or
42:17
students and staff or maybe just better word
42:20
would be our learners, right? You know, whatever
42:22
age category that that would apply to and whatever
42:26
role that you have in your particular district
42:28
or within your buildings. You know, how do you
42:32
think we can get our educational institutions
42:36
to kind of build up some of that digital resilience.
42:40
And by that, what I mean, you know, getting people
42:43
to critically evaluate the information, the sources
42:46
that it comes from, you know, with the idea of
42:49
helping to combat misinformation, disinformation,
42:53
because I think even in this world of generative
42:56
AI that we're in, it's becoming even more difficult
42:59
to sometimes tell the real from the fake, the
43:03
authentic from the created. It definitely is.
43:09
And again, one person's fake news is another
43:11
person's solid fact. Right. Cause we live in
43:15
this post truth world where every fact can be
43:18
argued. Right. And so getting people to look
43:22
at things and try to look in a non -biased perspective
43:25
is maybe it's more important just to identify,
43:27
Hey, what's, what are the biases of whoever's
43:30
providing this information? And then look at
43:32
that and say, okay, now where do you. want to
43:35
come down sometimes, because I'm not sure we
43:38
can even 100 % of the time identify this is actually
43:41
the fact. You know, one thing I always tell my
43:43
graduate students, when they give you one statistic,
43:46
you know, one number, always be very wary, right?
43:50
Because then the question is, okay, how does
43:52
that relate to anything else? So if they don't
43:54
give you something to relate it to, where do
43:56
you get to, it's practice. And we have to teach
43:59
our students at all levels to, actually make
44:04
difficult decisions, right? And giving them the
44:07
opportunity to fail and learn from failure, right?
44:12
We've sort of become overprotective of now, like,
44:15
well, everybody has to get a good grade and we've
44:17
got to make sure there's no failure because then
44:19
when they get to college, especially if they
44:22
go to a larger university that has a lot of,
44:24
you know, seminar classes that grade on curves,
44:27
they're going to get hit in the face with failure
44:30
in a way that never happened. in their K -12
44:32
environment, right? And so you got to give people
44:35
the opportunity to fail and learn from those
44:40
mistakes and build that experience and take a
44:43
look over time at, okay, what's a good source?
44:48
What's a good source for me that works? Right?
44:53
And that's just a repetitive task. And at least
44:56
now you have all of these materials, right? When
44:58
I was a classroom teacher, they were talking
45:00
about trying to bring the classroom, you know,
45:01
the real world into the classroom. Well, it's
45:03
pouring in now in a, you know, in a digital wave.
45:07
We just got to figure out how to take that data
45:10
and use it effectively. So the more real world
45:13
examples we can provide students and real problems
45:16
they can solve, as opposed to just, you know,
45:19
the simple answers that are in the back of the
45:21
textbook. And the answer for all those textbooks
45:23
are online. Right, so students can go find them.
45:27
So you got to really work to develop good questions
45:31
that require a little extra work. I think some
45:35
of it too comes down to educators meeting to
45:38
be able to model situations from their own real
45:41
personal experience where either they've fallen
45:44
victim to some of that, you know, I fell for
45:46
a trap and what I thought I shared turned out
45:50
to be false and then you know, model, then the
45:53
steps that you took to try to correct your action.
45:55
Right. Um, and, and to admit the vulnerability
45:58
of it and, and, you know, like be human about
46:01
it. I remember a teacher with a master's degree
46:04
coming in one day and saying, Hey, I got this
46:06
email from a soldier in Afghanistan. And he's
46:09
got this money he wants to move to the U S but
46:11
he needs my bank account transfer it. And I'm
46:14
like, have you not ever heard of the Nigerian
46:16
princes? Well, yeah, that, but that's different.
46:18
This is a soldier. And I'm like, Oh, good grief.
46:22
Um, we might have to have some more training,
46:24
right? But you know, fishing is, there's tons
46:29
of stuff out there. And so you do, you just have
46:30
to, the more you can be honest and open with
46:33
your students and walk them through, I think
46:35
the better off you are. Yeah. And that's, that's
46:40
something that we touched on a little bit earlier,
46:41
but you know, and given these, the digital literacy
46:45
areas, um, you know, and thinking about like,
46:49
uh, There's some really good programs that cover
46:52
all different aspects of digital citizenship,
46:55
like some of the things you brought up, like
46:58
identifying good sources for news, is the information
47:02
correct, cross -checking that, combating misinformation,
47:07
those type of things. And then another component,
47:10
which you just mentioned, is some of the cybersecurity
47:13
issues and being aware of those. So what do you
47:17
think is the... the most important thing for
47:20
school leaders to do stay a superintendent. When
47:23
it comes to cybersecurity awareness, is it just
47:27
like relying on their, their tech director or
47:30
coordinator, or is it, um, you know, what, what
47:33
would you say would be the most essential thing
47:35
for us to print that? I would argue the superintendent
47:40
can't rely simply on the staff to do it. Right.
47:43
Because everybody watches the superintendent
47:45
and what they think is important is important.
47:49
Right. So if this, you know, every week or month
47:51
we'll get something about cybersecurity from
47:53
the IT folks. Right. Now people would pay attention
47:57
if it came from our university president or from
47:59
the school district superintendent, as opposed
48:01
to coming from, you know, an office. Does that
48:04
make sense? And so it's no different with the
48:08
DEI. stuff right now. People are very worried
48:10
about DEI and rightly so. But the issue is ultimately
48:16
equity in diversity, if they're leadership decisions
48:21
and there's a leadership goal to make sure we
48:24
have a more diverse staff that's going to happen,
48:26
whether or not you have a DEI office right at
48:28
the university level. And so that's the key is
48:32
the superintendent needs to be clear about what
48:35
his or her goals are. Right. If they're going
48:38
to be an advocate and say, Hey, we need to make
48:40
sure we do a better job. You know, is Jeremy,
48:43
I think you mentioned there, if the superintendent
48:45
can say, Hey, there was this time when, you know,
48:47
I ended up sending somebody a target gift card
48:49
because, you know, um, they sent me an email
48:52
asking me to, and then I realized it wasn't from
48:54
them. Um, you know, or give examples themselves.
48:58
That's always helpful. Right. But that ability
49:01
to say, Hey, this is really important. We need
49:04
to look at this a little bit. Right. Uh, it,
49:08
when it comes from the person with the single
49:10
word title, you get a lot more attention to it
49:14
than when it comes from, you know, the cybersecurity
49:17
folks or network folks or others. Does that make
49:20
sense? Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Um,
49:26
so Steve, if you could give one piece of advice
49:28
to educators looking to future proof. you know,
49:31
whatever future proof means, right? Um, they're
49:34
teaching strategies with technology. What would
49:36
that be? Yeah, you can't future proof. Okay.
49:40
Uh, you know, I, I spent the nineties in the
49:43
early two thousands working in IT where everybody
49:46
was trying to future proof everything. It doesn't
49:50
work, right? There's always going to be technology
49:52
to change. And the nice thing is there's usually
49:54
software that'll backfill and make the hardware
49:56
work anyway. Right. And so. You can't future
50:00
-proof things, instruction anymore than can you
50:03
future -proof your network. You have to focus
50:05
on some things and a lot of that depends upon
50:08
your sort of educational philosophy, right? If
50:10
you're a perennialist, if you're an essentialist,
50:13
if you're sort of a realist, that's going to
50:15
drive what you think is really important. But
50:18
there are core concepts of literacy that everybody
50:21
needs to know, right? Everybody needs to know
50:22
how to read, write, and calculate. Exactly. The
50:26
tools they use to do that may differ, right?
50:30
But they're going to have to learn how to do
50:32
those tool, those things. Uh, just make sure
50:35
that you have a solid instructional core and
50:38
your student learning objectives are really,
50:40
they focus on those higher levels of bloom. Right.
50:43
Um, in all instructions, kind of situational
50:47
too, cause you're going to have a different group
50:48
of students every time in those desks looking
50:51
at you. And so what can you do? to make sure
50:56
they learn how to learn. Right. I used to carpool
51:00
with a physics teacher who ultimately became
51:02
a superintendent as well. And I always laugh
51:05
at Brian and say, every day, you know, you're
51:07
teaching people things that you know are wrong.
51:10
Right. Cause if you remember back to like when
51:12
I was in chemistry, we learned the electric,
51:14
the electron was the smallest thing on earth.
51:17
Right. Now we know there's a whole bunch of smaller
51:19
things and maybe even smaller, smaller things.
51:22
Right. And so. The key in chemistry wasn't that
51:26
I learned about the electron and neutron in the
51:29
plum pudding model of the atom. I learned about
51:31
the scientific method, right? So you learned
51:33
how to learn. And in the, you know, in literature
51:39
and in history and the arts, you learn, you know,
51:42
the internal and external criticism when you're
51:46
looking at a document, right? How to really determine
51:49
what it was saying and in the context it was
51:51
given. And so those are the key things that I
51:54
think it's important to learn how to learn, learn
51:57
how to find information. You know, those are
52:01
the real keys. Those are going to remain consistent,
52:05
I think, depending upon whatever happens with
52:08
digitization and our AI tutors potentially and
52:11
other things. And they're going to work whether
52:13
or not you unplug your computer or not. And I
52:18
think those are the essential things that have
52:19
worked well for education. historically speaking,
52:23
are those things which, you know, you swap out
52:25
the piece of technology that's helping you access
52:27
information or you swap out the tool that helps
52:30
you, you know, deliver a lesson in a different
52:34
manner that reaches a more engaging, you know,
52:39
a way to the students. But, you know, so what
52:41
you're talking about here is, you know, that
52:43
future -proofing with technology, but future
52:45
-proofing by having that solid basis and that
52:48
solid foundation. I'm sure when slide rules came
52:51
out, there were a group of engineers and physicists
52:53
who thought they were terrible things and that
52:55
students wouldn't learn how to do logarithms
52:57
properly anymore, right? All right. So Steve,
53:06
I wanted to just kind of plug here. We're very
53:10
excited to have you come join us for our EdTech
53:13
Connect 2025 conference. And I know you and I
53:17
have talked a bit back and forth and you were
53:20
going to do a keynote for us that really focuses
53:24
on digital literacy for 2030. And so I was hoping
53:28
you could almost kind of preview for us what
53:32
that might look like and attendees will take
53:35
away from that keynote when we have the conference.
53:39
Well, clearly you don't understand my process
53:41
because I'll have that presentation done probably
53:45
a couple hours before I give it. Not that I haven't
53:47
already started, but you know, there's the, as
53:50
I walk my dog, he gives me a lot of good advice
53:52
about, well, don't include that, include this
53:54
now as well. Right. Um, in fact, a couple of
53:57
my students have just suggested they're going
53:59
to steal that from me and start talking about,
54:01
well, when I was walking my dog or my cat and
54:03
I talked about this, you kind of got to let it
54:06
percolate for a long time. But the key is, um,
54:11
what, you know, We've had technology for a long
54:15
time in Germany. And I were talking before you
54:17
logged in and we started, you know, Socrates
54:19
was upset about writing because all scholars
54:23
were going to lose their memory. They weren't
54:25
going to be real, you know, it was going to ruin
54:27
scholarship, uh, that it's always been that way.
54:32
I think one is what are those core key literacy
54:36
tools that people need, right? Besides the reading,
54:39
writing and arithmetic kind of. What are those
54:42
abilities to really determine information in
54:47
the critical thinking theories, the line with
54:48
that, how to search and find stuff. Right. And
54:51
then sort of how to call the wheat from the shaft
54:54
of all the information that's there. And I think
54:56
the other thing that's really interesting is
54:59
how do we look at STEM in relation to generative
55:03
AI now, right? We've had this huge push for STEM
55:05
for such a long time. And I've always been in
55:10
full disclosure as a history guy. I've always
55:12
been a little unhappy about STEM because it pushes
55:15
out the one thing that I think that sets the
55:18
context for everything, which is history, right?
55:21
The same science teacher I used to drive with,
55:22
we always thought in a perfect world, we'd get
55:25
to teach a class about the history of it, of
55:27
science, right? Because all of these science
55:30
things all were in context and how did they change
55:33
the world? Right. Not just the knowledge. And
55:35
so how do we put things in context more effectively
55:39
so that we can look at things, you know, as we
55:42
span cultural groups and look at global, you
55:46
know, issues, how do the impact to what's going
55:49
on, you know, for me today, where I am. Right.
55:54
And so there's a lot, I think, with literacy
55:57
that has to go beyond just using technology tools
56:02
effectively. But understanding the context in
56:04
which they live. Great. Well, yeah, we're very
56:10
excited to have you join us and we'll look forward
56:15
to hearing more about digital literacy in 2030
56:18
at the conference. I've applied to present at
56:24
that conference breakout session. So as long
56:26
as someone approves my sessions. Do you think
56:30
you might know somebody? I hope, I hope I haven't
56:34
Ian, so we'll see. Yeah. I do laugh at that question
56:38
because I finally did the video for a asynchronous
56:42
session. I'm doing tomorrow. Theoretically last
56:45
night. Right. I finally made the final tweaks
56:49
to it. And so, um, I've already got a draft.
56:52
That's one of those things that'll change. And
56:54
in the world we live in, you know, what is that
56:57
three months away? three new great AI tools show
57:03
up in that time and really change, you know,
57:06
maybe those agents are really going to show up
57:08
and I'll be able to say, we just need to know
57:10
how to talk to your agents so they can do everything
57:12
for it. Right. Probably not. Well, Steve, we
57:18
know we definitely loved having you here today.
57:22
You know, like, is there anything that you would
57:23
like to plug or can I share your socials? Yeah,
57:27
you can definitely, you know, show my, in my
57:29
Twitter account, LinkedIn is probably one of
57:31
the best ways to get a hold of me. I have a website
57:33
or just through my email at Winona State, which
57:37
is just svol at winona .edu. So it's been my
57:41
pleasure, gentlemen. Thank you very much and
57:43
look forward to seeing you all in a couple of
57:45
months. Thanks, Steve. Bye bye. and keep integrating
58:15
this.