Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 271. Pay, Leave and Power: The Paid Leave Conversation - Orli Cotel

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271. Pay, Leave and Power: The Paid Leave Conversation - Orli Cotel · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:00
  Jonathan McCoy: Welcome back to pay leave and power week on the we're for good podcast, we're bringing you five episodes this week of candid conversations for the nonprofit sector. Today is day two, and we're discussing paid leave. We're so glad you're here. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the we are for good podcast,
• 0:20
  Becky Endicott: nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:29
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:38
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:49
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Becky, the days here,
• 0:53
  Becky Endicott: we have a rock star in the house. And I just really appreciate everyone who has been tuned in to this week that we are pouring into. And you know, as we were researching and kind of trying to set the tone for the ways and the direction we wanted to take this conversation we really wanted to talk about the problems with paid leave and nonprofit and we are scouring or we are for good community network. And there was literally only one name that people won't give us and we are so excited that she said yes and is on the podcast today. So I'm just delighted to introduce Orly kotel to everyone. She is a senior advisor at paid leave for the US which is plus for short.
• 1:34
  Becky Endicott: And she was just on the founding team of this incredible nonprofit who has helped win paid leave for over 8 million people at Walmart, Starbucks, CVS, you know, these names and so many other more. And they have channeled all of that momentum into the fight for national legislation that would bring paid leave to everyone in the US. And today we're gonna use orally, just expertise and counsel to figure out how do we just really think about this through the lens of nonprofit?
• 2:04
  Becky Endicott: How do we start to socialize conversations and narratives that get us out of this poverty mindset, and really have us living vibrantly. So just a little bit more background about Orly because I love that she's an environmentalist. She was working with the Sierra Club, and we love and I've had on the podcast in the past. And she's a former VP of partnerships. Also at Plus, she's really engaged over 350 businesses to advocate for federal paid leave, including little known names like Pinterest, Salesforce, Levi's, Spotify, et Cie. I mean, we all know these names, and I think it just underscores that our friend Orly knows what she's talking about. She is passionate, and we are so excited. She's in our house today, Orly, welcome to the we're for good paws cast. We are so delighted you're here.
• 2:50
  Orli Cotel: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here today.
• 2:52
  Becky Endicott: Well, you know, we never just dive into our topics, because we really want to know you as a human. So can you kind of take us back, tell us where you grew up and those lived experiences that kind of led you to do this work today?
• 3:06
  Orli Cotel: Sure. You know, I grew up in New York City, born and raised in Manhattan. And I ended up out in California after I finished college because I wanted to work on environmental issues. And the Sierra Club, which is, you know, one of the leading oldest and largest grassroots environmental groups in the country had a role for me, and I was thrilled to move out here and work for them. I worked for the Sierra Club on environmental issues for over a decade. So I was really involved in the climate fight. I was the communications director for the beyond coal campaign, which was the campaign to remember that did you remember that? Yeah, if you've had anyone from beyond coal on the show, but the goal was to take the oldest and dirtiest coal fired power plants in the country, and to replace them with clean energy. So I worked on that campaign, we retired about 270, coal fired power plants at the time, that I was working on the campaign, and we replaced him with clean energy. And then I was expecting my first baby. And I was really fired up about environmental issues. But when I had my baby, and I went out on leave, at the time, I was able to take what was considered a very long leave in the United States, I was out for seven months, fully paid.
• 4:13
  Orli Cotel: And that happened because I had been at the same employer for over a decade, I had accumulated tons of sick leave I had never used and I was able to layer that on top of the leave that the organization provided. And I will say it's only in the United States that that amount of paid leave is considered, quote unquote, generous, right? Canada recently expanded their paid leave from 12 months to 18 months. So you don't even have to look at Scandinavian countries as an example. The US is the literally the only industrialized nation in the world that doesn't have paid family and medical leave. But I went out on leave, and it was hard. Becoming a new parent was really challenging, and beautiful and wonderful and important and special and hard and I remember nursing my baby and being on my iPhone and looking to see who was doing the kind of grassroots mobilization and corporate campaigning and stuff on paid leave, that I had been doing for a decade at the Sierra Club, and that my colleagues in the environmental movement had been doing on climate. And I was thinking, if it's this hard for me, and I have every advantage, this ties into the equity issues that you bring up, if it's this hard for me, and I have privilege, I have racial and socio economic privilege, and I work for an employer that's helpful. And I have a spouse who has paid leave and all of these things. If it's this hard for me, then what is it like for people who are working minimum wage jobs, who literally have to go back to work before they're even healed from childbirth, or dads who don't have a single day. And so at that point, I said, I really want to find a way to work on this issue. And I was lucky enough to meet this incredible woman, Katie Bethel, who said she was just in the process of founding a new nonprofit to work on paid family leave. And I said, That's what I want to do.
• 5:59
  Orli Cotel: So that's the long story for how I came to work on this issue.
• 6:04
  Jonathan McCoy: What a freakin story. I mean, I love just how you've channeled your own story.
• 6:09
  Jonathan McCoy: And obviously, you had this kind of experienced that, quote, unquote, worked out because you had more time. But it gave you lens to that, that it shouldn't be like that, you know, and I think each of us have our own stories, we have two sets of twins that are families. So the whole process of welcoming humans into the world does not get enough gravity and weight in our country. Like I feel that in my bones, especially as a dad, from my perspective, and I remember going from the NICU to a meeting at work, because we're still trying to manage that process. And so I'd love for you to kind of give us a canvas, I mean, your stat should be wait for all of us as we hear it. And I want to repeat it, that the US is the only industrialized nation in the world without national paid leave. So can you paint a picture? Like what does it look like? How are people putting this puzzle together?
• 6:58
  Jonathan McCoy: And if you have any lens on the nonprofit space, specifically, we'd love to hear it.
• 7:02
  Orli Cotel: Yeah, well, I'll share first a stat and then I want to share some stories, because I think the real way to see how this issue is playing out is you know, real people.
• 7:11
  Orli Cotel: But the stat is that if you're looking just at parental leave, one in four new mothers in this country today, is going back to work less than two weeks after childbirth, what two weeks now there is no doctor in this country that is approving that and saying that this person is ready to go back because your body is not physically healed.
• 7:28
  Orli Cotel: And it's dangerous to your health, let alone the implications for what it means for the newborn to be without a family caregiver. But the reason they're doing that is because without paid leave, and there were 113 million, I think, actually now 112 something in that area, but over 100 million people who don't have a single day of paid leave right now. And if you're working a minimum wage job, you can't take unpaid time off, you can't do that and pay your bills. And so if you have to choose between, do I get evicted from my apartment? Do I put food on the table for my family? Or do I drag myself back to work when it's physically dangerous for my health, you do what you need to do. And so let me give you an example of how this actually plays out. And as you can imagine, this falls very clearly along racial and socio economic lines. So people who are in low wage working jobs are much less likely to have paid leave. Here's two quick stories like show you what this looks like. So I was on a call recently with a NICU nurse. And I'm glad you brought up the the NICU, the neonatal intensive care unit, because you know, a large percentage of babies are born premature and need to spend time in the NICU. And this nurse worked with micro preemies. So babies that are born very early, are most vulnerable members of our population. She said there was a mom who came in, she gave birth on a Thursday. And she was back at work on a Sunday as a server at Waffle House, because she didn't have a single day of paid leave. And this nurse told me that this mother would work all day at her shift at Waffle House. And then she would come into the hospital at night. And she would sit at her premature babies bedside and cry. And that's what we're doing to families in this country when we don't provide paid leave. But I think it's important to bring up another example which is this isn't just an issue of women giving birth. That's a huge challenge that we need to address. But families need paid leave in all different ways. So we're talking about dads who don't often get a single day of paid leave to be there for their families. We're also talking about family caregivers. So people who need paid leave to care for a spouse with cancer or a family member who has been in a horrible car accident. I mean right now when people don't have paid leave it means that if you get that call and we're all one phone call away from this kind of situation, right? Get one phone call that someone that you love with your whole heart is in the hospital, maybe even on their deathbed, and you have to choose if you can be at their side or if you need to go to work. that day. So the example I wanted to share about a dad is that we got a call a few years ago. And we were in touch with a dad in New Hampshire, he worked as a security guard, and his wife was in labor. So he calls his boss, he says, I'm in the car, my wife's in labor, I'm driving her to the hospital, I won't be able to come to work today. And his boss said to him, If you don't come to work, today, you're fired. You choose your wife, or your job. What would you do in that situation, you know, his wife is in labor, he's driving her to the hospital. So he quits his job, because he didn't have another choice, he felt he could not leave his wife alone in the hospital in labor. And then they welcomed a new baby at a time when their financial needs are the highest they've ever been.
• 10:43
  Orli Cotel: And he's unemployed. And this happens, because aside from paid leave, there are millions of Americans who aren't even covered by the unpaid leave laws under FMLA. So right now, it is totally legal, for many employers to fire someone for having a baby or for attending to a family member in the hospital. So I could share a lot more stories, but I don't want to break your heart, I want to share those just as to paint a picture. And now I also want to talk about what we can do to make it better because there's so much we can do.
• 11:15
  Becky Endicott: I mean, I think we have to sit in the pain of that for a second, I have to tell you, like my Empath heart just hurts very deeply right now. I just think about what a moment that is for them, when they don't have this. And everything that comes after it.
• 11:34
  Becky Endicott: I think about the mental health, you know, crisis that's going to be a result of that I think about the the stress and the family dynamic that comes from that. And, you know, we're a company that our families are number one, and our jobs are number two, but our culture here in this country is not built around that mindset. And so I think we have to hear these stories. And I have to tell you, I have heard some stories and nonprofit that take my breath away. In the in the same vein, people who were, I mean, I was sent sharing this in our community coffee the other day, I visited with a woman who was literally in labor. And I know we're focusing a lot on labor and women, but it has an impact beyond those that are in labor.
• 12:21
  Becky Endicott: But she was literally on her phone texting back and forth to her boss, you know, who needed some last minute documents from her before she went on paid leave, as her boss knew that she was in labor, and the mentality and the mindsets that we have just become accustomed to that this is okay has got to be stopped. And I think you hear stories like that, and you shake your head. And to me, you have a choice here, you can shake your head and go on with your life.
• 12:53
  Becky Endicott: Or you can lean into this and say I want to be a part of moving a new narrative and a new culture forward. So definitely, I want to go into the hope of this and talk us through a little bit of some of the process. I mean, what do you see now? How can people start to pour into these structures? And I specifically, we have such a heart for the tiny nonprofit who's juggling all the balls, and they're trying to figure out how to move these important lessons forward to leadership?
• 13:58
  Orli Cotel: Well, first, I think, and I want to talk about the nonprofit piece, because this is obviously very close to my heart. But I think it's important to paint a picture of what's happening in corporate America, too. Because when we started our work, when we launched five years ago, at the time paid leave was just an elite benefit. It was something that you had if you were an executive in the C suite. And right around the time we launched, Starbucks announced that they were going to have a new really, quote unquote generous paid leave policy. And they got tons of accolades and the press and everyone said, This is great. And we were the first people to ask, who does it apply to. And when you took a look at their policy, it was for the 3000 people who worked in Starbucks headquarters, and it left out the 160,000 baristas who are the heart and soul of their operation. And at the time, this was very normal for paid leave to be a perk. And our early work was to campaign to get the 50 largest employers in the country to change their policy and we did it through an equity lens. And I remember there was a meeting where one of my co workers brought a Starbucks barista to meet with the head of HR at Starbucks headquarters. And she said something along the lines of my baby needs me just as much as your baby needs you.
• 15:09
  Orli Cotel: And we were able to win Chang at Starbucks, they created a paternity leave program for their baristas for the first time and then also when changed at Walmart so that they would provide paid leave for their hourly associates and as the one of the largest private employer in the US that had a trickle down effect. So we've seen this tectonic shift in the private sector to acknowledge that paid leave is not a perk and that people need it. And yet there are so many people who are still left out. Here's where I think the nonprofit sector layers into this one really important part of the paid leave landscape is that in the past decade or so we've seen more and more states adopt statewide paid leave policies. California, New York, Washington, just in the past few months, we've seen statewide paid leave programs pass in Maryland and Delaware. So we're gonna have 11 states that have paid leave. And one of the reasons this is so important to the nonprofit sector is that the state is paying for the employees leave in the state of California, when I went out on leave, I filed a claim and the state sent me money. And so as a nonprofit employer, advocating for public policy becomes very important because if these public policies are in place, it enables your employees to have these benefits that they need.
• 16:26
  Orli Cotel: But it doesn't affect your bottom line and your balance sheet in the same way. And so a lot of these state programs are partially paid, they're not fully paid. And a good nonprofit employer will do what we call topping up, they'll pay the remaining 30, or 40%. But it makes it so much more affordable for nonprofits when these public policies come in and help employers to do the right thing.
• 16:49
  Orli Cotel: So as an organization, as a nonprofit, we did all of this work with companies to change the landscape for employers. But the reason that we did it is we wanted to pass a national paid leave policy that would help everybody in the US. And we knew that public policy is downstream of corporate practice. So it was very important to us to change what was happening in the private sector, and then figure out how to harness that energy and mobilize those companies to advocate for change in Washington, DC. And so that's what we were able to do last year and the build back better program, we mobilized over 350 employers to say, hey, paid leave is good for business, this has helped our company, we want to see this on a federal level.
• 17:32
  Orli Cotel: And to dispel that myth that paid leave is not good for business. Because ultimately, if it's good for your employees, and good for their health and their families, it helps recruitment and retention, morale, they all wanted it.
• 17:44
  Orli Cotel: Ultimately, the federal legislation at this point has collapsed. Yeah. And so and we've been through that roller coaster, and it was a real heartbreak. And I can't even stress how big of a missed opportunity it was, especially in a global pandemic, when things like family caregiving and women's participation in the workforce are really front and center everyone's mind. But it's not going away. Because the state policies have really picked up momentum. And this is where employers can step in and step up, and are doing that, and saying, Okay, we need to provide paid leave for our employees.
• 18:19
  Orli Cotel: And we need to really provide paid leave for all types of families. It's not our job as an employer to dictate what a family looks like, if you need paid leave to care for your aging parent, for your spouse with cancer. Or if you're someone who has chosen family, and maybe you have no relatives that you're close with, but your roommate is your whole life. And you need to help be there for that person. Like we need to be able to be there for the people that we love. And that's what these kinds of policies allow us to do. And you know what, if you can be there for your family, you're going to be able to be there better at work. And that's just truth. If you're an employer that cares about equity, and you're only providing unpaid leave for your employees, then you're not walking the walk. Because essentially, what you're saying is that an employee who has family money should be able to spend time with their newborn, and an employee who doesn't should have to come back to work because they won't be able to afford to take unpaid time. So if you're committed to equity, you need to be able to provide paid family leave paid time to care, so that everybody has equal access to the most important moments of their lives.
• 19:32
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends, we're taking a quick pause to quite literally invite you into this conversation, we really want to hear from you and hear about your personal experiences and the topics that we're unpacking this week, as part of paid leave and power week. So head on over to weird for good.com/power. And there, you're going to find a place where you can share your story confidentially through our secure form that's there. Or you can even leave us an anonymous voice message if you want to add your actual voice to the conversation. You know, we'd love to hear from you either way. That's weird for good.com/power. And while you're there, we've also designed the page to lead you into action within your organization. Here you can connect with this week's guest and get a deep roundup of resources and access to frameworks and scripts to help you get this conversation started. As we begin changing the trajectory of these deeply rooted problems that are plaguing our sector. We hope to see you there. You know, threading a lot of things that we talked about, especially this season has been a lot about building this cold. Sure, because we've we believe is you really live out the values. And that happens within the walls, people are just attracted, donors are attracted, it all gets into alignment. So I think is, you know, we're attracting people with the type of culture we live out. It also means stepping in and being this advocate when these things are coming to pass, you know, and I think I'd love for you to speak into how can leaders in our organizations and the grassroots everybody in our organization, pour in to these movements that are happening when you know, the legislation arises? And what, how do you step into that in an active way?
• 21:05
  Orli Cotel: I think we often don't think of nonprofits as employers, or as small or medium sized businesses, but we are, we employ people. And so there are a lot of things that we can do to show leadership in that space. We had nonprofits who spoke up during the build back better moment to say, paid leave has helped us as an employer at our nonprofit, we want to see federal policy, it helps us with our bottom line that supports us. So there's a lot that that nonprofits can do as employers to really advocate for federal policy. But there's also a lot that nonprofits can and need to do to have their own policies.
• 21:43
  Orli Cotel: And especially if your nonprofit is in a state that has a state based paid leave program, the public policy has made it so much easier for you to show up for your employees. And you have really, you have an obligation to follow through on your commitments to equity and inclusion to make sure that folks can be there for their families, and that it's not a perk that everyone in your organization have the ability to be there for their families. And I will say, at plus at paid leave for the US when when I had my second baby I was working at plus. And I don't remember the exact size of the team at that time. But we were small, we were small, but mighty team has accomplished a lot. I think at that time, we were only 10 employees, maybe fewer. And our policy at plus was for six months of paid leave for everyone. And people asked us how can you do that as a nonprofit. And, you know, one piece of it was public policy, I lived in California, the state paid me for about 70% of my leave. And so my nonprofit employer had to only pay 30%.
• 22:47
  Orli Cotel: But part of it was also recognizing that when you invest in this, your employees will be happier, healthier, more dedicated, I was out for six months, and I came back so fired up. So committed to the organization that I felt had shown up for me that I was really ready to continue showing up at work. And let's be frank, if someone is having a family health crisis, their mind is not at their desk. Yep, people are being forced to come back to work to go through the motions, and they're not actually always able to be fully present. So I think especially in, in the age of the pandemic, we've all learned that you can't separate your personal life from your work life, these things are intertwined. And the more we can set people up for success, the better off we'll be. Anne Marie slaughter has a great quote, and I'm going to mess it up. It's not going to be exact here. But she says something along the lines of You can't have equality for women in the workplace if you don't also have equality for men at home. And we've seen that during the pandemic, because women are trying to show up at work and be their best selves.
• 23:56
  Orli Cotel: And they were disproportionately handling the lion's share of all of these household duties they're putting in to double shifts, they're you know, they're working all day, then they're working all night and they're at the end of their of their ropes like people are needing extra support. We know that when we encourage fully encourage men to take paternity leave, it helps create a more equitable gender balance in the workplace, because it creates a dynamic from the very beginning of that new family that you don't have one primary parent, that parenting is a shared responsibility. And that enables women to thrive at work. And it also brings men greater happiness to be able to be there for their families. There are tons of studies that show that kids have better outcomes, even through high school, if their dads took paternity leave, because those fathers continued to be involved in those kids in a deeper way throughout their whole lives.
• 24:48
  Becky Endicott: Okay, I just have to share a personal story that completely aligns with that we have a dear friend in our community, who like everyone, you know, are most people during the pandemic was home and working remotely when his first child was born. And so he's working remotely for a year and a half. And when the company calls and says it's time for you to come back, and oh, by the way, you're coming back full time and we're not even doing remote work anymore. He said, I've had 18 months to bond with my son that I could have never imagined and it changed me as a human being and I was mourning the connection that was going to be lost as a result of not even having the flexibility of doing remote work one Are two days, and he literally had kind of a life crisis and change jobs and found a place that would give him some of that dynamic. And so as hard as the pandemic was, I do think it created some level of awakening for what we're missing out on. And I thank you so much for baking in the equality piece. And for anyone that's looking for more reading on this, I think somebody that does really well is Rasmus su Johnny, she just did a great book that came out called pay up to the future of women and work and she works on the Marshall Plan. And she has been also there's so many great advocates for this. And I, it makes me feel seen. And I want to say that because I took six weeks of maternity leave from my first child. And I had to say, I don't know that that was my employer putting it on me. But I had a mindset that I couldn't take more than that, that the employer wouldn't need me that I had a team of people waiting on me, when I had my second child, at five weeks, I ended up going to our gala because it was right in the middle. Because I felt like I had to and because I had a senior member of leadership tell me, Oh, I don't think I can do my speaking if you're not up there coaching me. And I just was like, okay, and I just think this is a problem and nonprofit that we don't set boundaries for our life. And we're not seeing ourselves as worthy of this. And I thank you for what you're preaching, because it is a human right. And it's going to lend to not only greater connection to our families, more vibrant communities, the output is really beneficial to the nonprofit too. So this is such a win win scenario. And we need each of your voices in here. So I want to switch a little and go to case studies, I want you to kind of break down for us a couple of instances of kind of best in class paid leave policies, what do they look like these days? What should companies be doing? What is the cutting edge? Where can somebody start?
• 27:34
  Orli Cotel: I love talking about what companies are doing right?
• 27:37
  Orli Cotel: And but first, I do want to say there's something as someone who has been in the nonprofit sector my entire career, but who spends a lot of my day to day work working with some of the, you know, largest employers in the US with names everyone's heard of. I can tell you, there's a lot that the nonprofit sector can learn from the private sector here. Yes, and one of the main things is that for profit employers, the best ones, understand that their number one resource that they are stewarding is their talent. And they understand the cost benefit analysis of retaining or losing talent. They understand that if someone quits, they have to spend $30,000, or whatever it is to refill that position and the huge amount of lost opportunity and the time it takes the new person to get up to speed. And I'm also a firm believer that everything is about relationships. So when you've invested in a person who has the relationships and and has the internal knowledge of how things work, and they are gone, or you can't hire the person who would be best positioned to steward what the organization needs to achieve their goals. That's money lost. And so this is not just about paid leave nonprofits do this all the time in terms of thinking of staff as expendable, paying people the minimum that they can pay them haggling in the salary negotiations. At plus, we took a very different approach. We wanted to pay people the highest that we could possibly pay them. We want it to show staff that they're valued.
• 29:11
  Orli Cotel: We wanted to ask people when they were hired in their opening meeting with our manager, what makes you feel valued? How can we show you appreciation? If you do something great. Do you like receiving flowers or getting a gift card? Do you like when people buy you lunch? What makes you really feel like you are seen? And these are things that I think nonprofits can should and must be doing if we want to be able to retain talent in the Bay Area where I've worked almost my entire career. A lot of folks are leaving the nonprofit world to go to tech.
• 29:43
  Orli Cotel: And not just because they want to go work for a fancy brand.
• 29:47
  Orli Cotel: They're doing it because they feel like they are seen and valued as an employee. And we need to do that. Okay, now I'll answer your question and get off my
• 30:00
  Unknown: glad you were on.
• 30:00
  Unknown: Everything you're saying. Yeah.
• 30:04
  Orli Cotel: So here's the here's some stuff that the private sector is doing right? One of the pioneers in this space was Deloitte. They were one of the early companies that said, You know what, let's create a policy that's not only gender neutral, but is generational neutral.
• 30:16
  Orli Cotel: They coined this term, to say it's not just going to be 16 weeks of equal leave for all parents. It's going to be 16 weeks of equal leave for any family caregiving need. So if you have a spouse with cancer, if you have a parent you You know, with this with a serious illness, if you need to help someone in your family through surgery, you take the time that you need. And so Deloitte really pioneered that. And I think it encouraged a lot of other companies to follow suit. Some of the other really great things that we've seen in the private sector, there's a company called Sunlife. And we worked with them on their policy, and they not only had a gender neutral, and generational neutral policy, but on top of that, they said, We are not going to decide who counts as your family, we're going to include chosen family, because we trust you as employees, to be able to say this person is family to me. And that really moved me and I think is very meaningful, because there are so many people who might have family care obligations, where if you're saying this is only for a spouse, a parent or a, you know, a kid, what if you have a sibling who has cancer, and you need to care for them, because your parents have already passed on. And that sibling might not be married? I mean, everyone should be able to choose who they need to be there for. And I also hear too much from employers Well, what if people take advantage of the system?
• 31:39
  Orli Cotel: What if they're just using it to get time off work, I've been working on this for five years, I don't see that it doesn't happen. People are grateful to have this when they need it. And they don't want to abuse it, because they don't want it to be taken away for the people who do need it. So let's, let's trust our employees, they're our most valuable resource, let them tell us what they need. And let's support them so that they can be there for their families.
• 32:04
  Becky Endicott: orally, I love all of this conversation through the lens of for profit. And I'm really thinking about nonprofit because we did a lot of due diligence trying to find really vibrant leaf policies within our community. And we couldn't find any. So I would love for you to just talk a little bit about what you're seeing in terms of the nonprofits who are taking on these really advanced thoughts and approaches to paid leave.
• 32:30
  Orli Cotel: There are nonprofits that have strong paid parental leave policies, I have not seen many examples of nonprofits that also provide leave for family caregiving. In the environmental space, I know that Sierra Club, Greenpeace, Rainforest Action Network, a number of the big environmental nonprofits do provide really strong parental leave policies. But we can and should do better. And I think a lot of the nonprofit's that are based in New York and California and the other states that have state based paid leave, are actually able to provide much better paid leave, because as I've said before, they're not actually paying for the base cost of that program, the state pays for it. So I think it's more challenging for nonprofits that are in the other states that don't have paid leave, and the nonprofit would have to pay for the full amount of that leave. But on our website that pay leave for the US, we have a cost benefit calculator, it's an Excel calculator. And you can type in all of the information from your organization, your average staff salary, your expenses, and also how much it costs you to replace someone.
• 33:37
  Orli Cotel: Because without adequate paid leave, you really are likely to see much higher attrition. And if you're really being responsible fiscally, you need to look not at the cost of the paid leave, but at the cost of losing that staff person if they don't come back, because they haven't had enough paid leave.
• 33:54
  Orli Cotel: And there's tons of evidence to show that the more paid leave you give someone, the more likely they are to come back, because they're coming back when they're ready. When Google increased their paid maternity leave, they cut their attrition by 50% 50%. I mean, that's a huge number. So visit paid leave.us, you can check out our resources, look at our cost benefit calculator. And you'll most likely find that if you pay for pay leave, you're actually going to see savings as an employer in the end.
• 34:23
  Becky Endicott: We're going to link to that in the show notes.
• 34:26
  Becky Endicott: We will also link to the 11 states who have already done state sponsored leave and people please pour into that and flex those resources.
• 34:36
  Jonathan McCoy: So I love the threads of this conversation coming together because it really connects with a conversation about compensation that we've had this week. And it's about being individualized in the sense of recognizing that we're each on our own journey.
• 34:47
  Jonathan McCoy: So how do we create these policies that see people for their own unique journey, who they define as their family, what did their situation looks like? And so just really eating that up. And it makes me think of it embodies the values that our organizations probably already say, that's why we exist, we want to help and we want to lift the marginalized.
• 35:04
  Jonathan McCoy: But we need to look within our own walls of how we're creating some of those own problems within our own organizations. So on topic for the kind of brown this out, I would love to talk about activating, you know, all of us in nonprofits, we struggle to create a work environment that promotes work life balance for their employees. Can we talk about that, you know, plus, I know y'all provide six months of paid leave unlimited vacation time. Can you talk about what you're learning through that and the kind of benefits that you're offering and And what that can look like for organizations?
• 35:36
  Orli Cotel: Sure. I mean, I think that one of the challenges we face in the nonprofit world is people really operate from a scarcity mentality. And we wanted to turn that on its head, we're trying to envision and make possible a world of abundance. And so we have to start by modeling that at our own nonprofit, oh, or if we want to create a world where everyone can be their best self can be there for their families can have their needs taken care of, how can we create that in the world if we can't even create that in our own workplaces?
• 36:07
  Becky Endicott: Mike?
• 36:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Draw, it's on the floor like this. So good.
• 36:11
  Orli Cotel: So I think we challenged ourselves at plus just to really start from scratch. Think about everything in a new way. I mean, I've worked on, I've worked in nonprofits in the past, where as a senior leader, budgeting was like a gladiator sport, now. And truth is, we started in the very early days of organization to talk about what our organizational values were. And one of those values that we aligned on very early was this concept of low ego, high impact.
• 36:43
  Orli Cotel: So to really align around, we're here to make change in the world. This is not about us. And in fact, you'll see in a lot of times that we work behind the scenes, and our brand isn't even really part of it. But that is about our workplace culture, too. So I was in budget meetings as a leader at plus where you would see senior leaders saying, you know, what, I think I have too much money allocated for me for this, is there someone else on the leadership team who could use these funds to do something higher impact, and someone else would raise their hand. And that's the kind of leadership we wanted to model internally.
• 37:16
  Orli Cotel: Because that's how you win, right? Like we have to be thinking about, I don't care how many people are on my team are how much money I have to do this project, I care about winning, ultimately. So that's why I show up at work every day. And that's I think, what we have to think about as nonprofits.
• 37:33
  Jonathan McCoy: Can that be your next big thing, you know, you've tackled the paid leave, let's go switch the no ego kind of way to show up how beautiful love the chart doing that.
• 37:43
  Becky Endicott: And starting with your values. I mean, to us, that's where everything starts, is when you can go back when you're struggling, you know, through budget planning. And the gladiator example, is hilarious, because I do feel like everybody has to put on their armor. In those budget meetings, when they start to value engineer, I'm using my air quotes. And you have to go in and fight for your pieces. And I just think removing ego going back to values that is such a safety net, to keep ego at bay. And to keep mission upfront, I absolutely love that.
• 38:16
  Orli Cotel: There's something I think about a lot, which relates to the nonprofit world. And that is when NASA bear with me here, this is going somewhere when NASA had to put people on the moon. And they had to figure out how to make that happen. When they launched those spaceships, they didn't launch them pointing up the moon, they couldn't, they had to launch their spaceships pointing out into deep space to the middle of nowhere to the area where they had calculated the moon would be in the time it would take the rocket ship to get there because the moon was moving and the rocket ship was moving. And so they had to say we think that the moon is going to be here in this many days.
• 39:02
  Orli Cotel: And so that's where we're going to point the rocket ship. And that's what it means to have really bold vision as a nonprofit, you can't aim at what's in sight, you have to aim at where you want the world to be. And I think that applies to the fight for paid leave for how we had to change the corporate landscape in order to be able to create the terrain that would be you know, ready for public policy. But I think it's also about what we do as nonprofits and as leaders, we have to be that kind of ambitious, we have to be able to say like, Who do we really want to be even if it seems hard and impossible. Now let's chart the course for where we want to get and not just aim at what's possible. And when we have a scarcity mindset, and we're just operating out of, well, here's what our budget will enable us to do in this moment, right now. You're never going to be the kind of visionary organization to the world. If you can't be that kind of visionary organization to your own team.
• 39:52
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, come for the paid leave stay for this vision, like 101 Holy heck, how good and, you know, we celebrate philanthropy in this house. And I'm like, I just want to infuse this level of mindset, this level of dreaming and activating and smart strategy innovating.
• 40:07
  Jonathan McCoy: And so I wonder if you would kind of take us back your journey has been intersected with philanthropy for so long.
• 40:14
  Jonathan McCoy: Take us to a story that's really stuck with you along this journey in the transformational way that philanthropy just works.
• 40:22
  Orli Cotel: Well. I'll share one from my time at plus, we had a woman who reached out to us who was a small business owner in Washington State and Washington State had just has passed their statewide paid leave program. So she had a baby. And the state had just started the program where they would actually send you money when you had a baby to pay for your time off. And I didn't know her well, she reached out to us via email. And she said, I would like to take the entire check the entire amount of funds that I'm getting paid for my paid leave, and actually turn it over to you as an organization. Because I know that Washington state has paid leave, and that there are still, you know, 40 or so states that don't have it. And I can't bear to take paid leave when I know that there are people who don't have it. And it moved us so much. And it reminded us of really realigning around who we're fighting for, which is the people that that don't have the time that they need to be there for their families. And the fact that she was willing to take her personal funds to really help pay it forward for everyone was just an incredibly moving moment of philanthropy for me.
• 41:40
  Becky Endicott: I mean, that is one of the most epic stories I think that we've heard on this podcast. And it reinforces something that I've just been thinking in the back of my mind, as we've been having this conversation, when you can employ this bravery mentality to push forward this as a right.
• 41:58
  Becky Endicott: It's not something you're pushing forward for, for just yourself. So if you need some impetus, and a little bit of push in your back, I want everybody as I'm getting emotional, to think about that Waffle House server, lifting our voice, she is worthy of us lifting our voice because it impacts people like that. And I don't care who you are, we have a really young listener base and our young professionals whom we love, so Well, you have an important voice in this conversation, you do not have to have tenure, to have this conversation. I want to empower you with that now because every human in the workforce has equal rights to this. So I just thank you so much for sharing that story. And I just want to just affirm everyone, that when you step into your bravery in this, it will have a ripple effect to those we will never see. And that to me is the heart of philanthropy is paying it forward. So someone else can have a better and equitable life, not just ourselves. So thank you for that orally. And I mean, we got to roll to our one good thing, it's our final question on the podcast, we want to know what your one good thing that you would offer up to our community, it could be a piece of advice or a quote, what would you offer today,
• 43:22
  Orli Cotel: I think it all comes back to that value of low ego high impact. If you can align around what you're really trying to achieve, and just bring everything back to that put the mission first, and then live your values, you'll be successful.
• 43:38
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, you've given us so much momentum in this conversation, I think we're all kind of ready on the edge of our seat to take action. And so we're looking to you just for some resources of where do you start? Where can we point people to go to just get guidance of that next right step to take?
• 43:52
  Orli Cotel: I love getting this question. We have had hundreds of people who have changed the policies in their own workplace by using the resources on our website. So if you go to paid leave.us, check out the resources section, you'll find everything that you need to help make a proposal to your employer and the resources that they might need to see how this will benefit them. And I will just say that every time we've seen a company change its policy, it's always because someone advocated internally to do it. So I encourage you to be that person help when change for everyone.
• 44:23
  Orli Cotel: And it really does make a huge impact
• 44:28
  Becky Endicott: help when change for everyone. I'm all on board.
• 44:32
  Becky Endicott: Okay, Orly, people are going to want to know how to get more of the resources and the goodness and just stay up to date on this with plus, probably want to connect with you. Can you give us all the links and social channels where people can reach out and connect with you
• 44:46
  Orli Cotel: connect with me on LinkedIn, I love when people reach out directly and ask me for help updating their policy happy to coach you one on one work with you on it or connect you with folks who can help. So I'm Orly Kotel on LinkedIn, you can find me there and happy to help with your policies.
• 45:03
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, this conversation has been so good, thank you for bringing this thank you for your service. And for really following this nudge.
• 45:08
  Jonathan McCoy: I just think of you, you know, holding your baby hand of having this awakening moment that that's where your next step was.
• 45:13
  Jonathan McCoy: And there's people listening today that are probably going through that same thing. This is a beautiful place to pour in the moment is rife. Like Let's all hold hands and get this done together. So thank you for this time. It's been incredible.
• 45:26
  Becky Endicott: Absolutely.
• 45:26
  Becky Endicott: You've lived up to the hype orally and we are rabid fans and we will be following plus very very closely, friend Isn't our community keep looking for this information will be dropping in the community in our communication. This is an important topic. We want it to live all the time. So reach out with your questions. Please share your stories with us good or bad. We want to understand what the landscape looks like.
• 45:47
  Becky Endicott: And Orly, thank you so much. You just blew our minds in the best way today. We are cheering you on.
• 45:54
  Orli Cotel: Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's been wonderful talking with you.
• 45:56
  Orli Cotel: Take care such
• 45:59
  Jonathan McCoy: honor. Thanks.
• 46:01
  Julie Confer: Hey, friends.
• 46:01
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• 46:03
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• 46:22
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• 46:25
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• 46:34
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