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SMNTY Classics: The Legacy of Hugh Hefner, Part 2 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is any Ann Smith and welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never Told You, a production by Her Radio, and we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: are back with part two of our classic on the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: legacy of Hugh Hefner that was inspired by our recent
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: viewing of a Sex and the City episode that he.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Was featured in.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: This is something that we did with Bridget and it
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: just the conversation sprawled, it spiraled into something much bigger
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and it had to become a two parter. Yes, so
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Hey, this is Anna and Samantha and.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to steff one Never Told You production If I
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Hurt Radio, And welcome to the second part of the
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: two parter accidental two parter that we did with Bridget Todd,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: great friend of the show about Hugh Hefner and legacy
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: of Hugh Hefner.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: We just got going.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: And there was a lot to say, so much to say. Yeah,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: so we had to split it up. Go listen to
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: part one if you haven't already.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: May be confusing. If you don't, it might be.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: It might be, but then come back.
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: And just kind of like the last one. If you did,
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: listen to the part one of this accidental part two
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: that I am so infamous for of the legacy of
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: Hugh Hefner. Content warning for all the things we are
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: going to talk about, examples of sexual assault, rape, drug abuse, soliciting, trafficking, death, murder,
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: like all the things. It is all up in here.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: It is as gruesome as you think. It is pretty horrifying.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: Not to discourage you, but to let you know what's
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: coming up. Of course, we're going to have a pretty
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: detailed conversation about some of the implications this does leave behind.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: So in the last episode we were deep into conversation
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: about Hugh Hefner and Playboy and the exploitation and trafficking
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: and abuse that was happening there, and how controlling so
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: much of it was, and how the pr machine really
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: did a great job at hiding it or repackaging it
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: making it look really nice. So we are going to
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: jump in right where we left off and dig into
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: that a little bit more.
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: Some of the most desrbing stuff that I recall from
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: these memoirs is what it was like to be sexual
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: with you, and what it was like as one of
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: the one of his girlfriends in the house, the ways
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: in which you had to mold yourself to this very
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: specific version of a woman's sexuality that is being dictated
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: by Hume and Hue alone is wild. Probably the most
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: shocking thing that haunts me to this day. It haunts
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: me is a revelation that during these orgies, rather than
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: using lubricant like a water based loube that you bite
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: him the store at Ky Jelly, Hugh Hefner insisted on
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: using baby oil. If you have a vagina, you know
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: that scented baby oil in your vagina is the most horrific.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Thing I can imagine.
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: So these women would be getting regular national infections while
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: having to have sex with you Hefner Knightley.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: They pleaded with the woman who was.
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: Sort of like in charge of doing his bidding, like,
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: please let us just use regular lube. We're all getting
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: vational infections and we're all having sex constantly.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: And they would sometimes.
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: Try to switch it out, like they would put lube
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: in the baby oil bottle.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: But somehow Hugh always knew.
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: And That's what I'm saying, Like, you are so committed
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: to this very specific visualization of what this sexual fantasy
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: is like that you don't even care that it is
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: preventing you from being able to like actually have sex
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: because the women will always have vational infections. Crystalline here
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: her memoir talks about how it got so bad that
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: she would have anal sex with him when it was
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: her night to have sex.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: With him because it was like, well that was like a.
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: Million times better than just getting a bad vational infection
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: from this baby oil in my vagina.
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, like that just it just sounds like again,
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: this is just control, Like this has nothing to do
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: with actual pleasure or any of that for him, Like
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: this doesn't really change much from like a good lubricant
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: versus baby oil. That that this is just about, Oh
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: I want this because I said this thing can change this.
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: This is and again that's a form of control and
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: abuse that happens so often within relationships, which, by the way,
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: like even for interviews, and I think these things were
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: coming out a lot before these documentaries and memoirs that
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: people just randomly, Yo, we got a thousand dollars a week.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: We had to go ask for it, and we knew
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: we asked for it. You know, it meant that he's
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: gonna give us a chart and rating, and that we
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: couldn't leave. We left, We had to have people with
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: us obviously, but he gave us everything. He gave me
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: a car, he gave me a dog, and we had
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: a salon for a little while until we abused it,
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: I guess.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: But people were.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: Normally this is like, yeah, okay, that's what you agreed with, right,
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: and not anybody saying yo, that's not cold, like yo,
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: that's that's like a literal re like what is happening.
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: This is the most controlling tactic that we If we
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: saw that in our friends in relationship, they'll'd be like,
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: you're gonna get murdered.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: You need to leave.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's one of the things I keep getting hung
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: up on about this is that we as a society
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: have co signed on this is okay by being like, oh,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: well he did these other things where it's you know,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: women so long have been valued on their body, their desirability,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: all of that stuff. Here's where you can make money.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: But let's like paint it real nice. And one of
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the things that I think about a lot is you
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: started to use feminism. You have never started to use
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: feminism to be like, see, it's all good for the
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: women here because of feminism. This was happening at the
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: time of the sexual Revolution, the second wave feminism of
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the seventies, and there was this backlash against it. But
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: then it's almost horrifyingly amazing how well the pr of
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Playboy did at turning it into well, we've seen the
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: sexual revolution. You ladies just want to have sex, right.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Here you go.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Now, now we get like a feminist stamp of approval,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: which is wild.
• 7:23
  Speaker 5: You ladies want reoccurring vational infections.
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: I mean they really wanted to tell to pretend like,
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: as long as you're not in the kitchen and raising children,
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: this is feminists, Which is kind of that big conversation
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: with what was kind of wrong with feminism at that
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: point in time and being like, this is not what
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: this is not all feminism. This is not what we
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: were saying when we said equality not to be like
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: just because you give us a you pay us to
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: not have children and to not have for some of
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: us and not being in the house and have a
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: job that is atypical and I'm quoting or doing things
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: where I can show something proudly where my you know,
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: other people would be shamed of. This is not necessarily
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: what we're talking about in feminism. There was an article
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: with New Statesmen talking about his co opting of feminism
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: for his empire, and it says, if you ask Hugh Hefner,
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: he'll tell you he was a feminist before there was
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: such a thing as feminism. And again, it's just one
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: of those narcissistic things where like I did this before you. Hey, women,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: I saved you.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: You're welcome.
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: And also is the thing he was doing this before
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: women like Mary Wolstengregg, Like what.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Does that even mean?
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: That's right, just not true. There's no way that's true. Like,
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: you didn't start the feminist movement, man, my guy.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Like you just didn't.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: It's not your thing. This is not you and going
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: to continue.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: This week, Cosmopolitan republished He's love letter to himself, arguing
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: that feminism was his own worst enemy. So we're guessing
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: this is around the time they're like, yo, this is
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: not feminism, sh playboy being the true source of women's liberation. Everybody,
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: he writes, if they got their head on straight, wants
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: to be sexual object. This piece was originally published in
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: two thousand and seven, but has been making the same
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: argument since the nineteen sixties, and in fact, the magazine
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: did promote their own version of women's lib back then,
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: supporting reproductive rights and of course, sexual liberation. The Playboy
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: Foundation even donated generously to abortion rights organizations and the
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: American Civil Liberties Union ACLU to fund daycare centers. Longtime
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: senior editor Natt Lehrman said, the magazine quote came out
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: on these important feminist issues before feminists had figured out
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: what their issues were.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Wow, just to know, I do have to say we
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: talked about Playboy in our book, because yes, they in
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: part helped with the putting together of rape kits, which
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: is something that we must live with and I don't
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: know what to do about. I don't know what to
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: do about it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: But yes, but in that same article they do kind
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: of call it out and say, claiming to support women's
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: rights while simultaneously insisting on our objectification was unconvincing for
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: the second wave. But the times they are changing, and
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: the kind of feminism presented to today's liberal doesn't seem
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: so far off from the magazine's ethos in an era
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: that ascribes empowerment to everything from breast implants to new
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: selfies to pole dancing classes. And when the hardest conversation
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: of twenty fourteen was Beyonce's feminism. It only makes sense
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: that the magazine, when it doubled down on their efforts
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: to capitalize on the movement. Playboy's existence relies on the
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: notion of women as sexually liberated proponents of free love.
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: As such, the introduction of the birth control pill in
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: America was deeply connected to not only women's liberation, but
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: to the sexual revolution. Women can now have sex like men,
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: no streams attached. Playboy was crafting a version of women's
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: lib that was, in the end still male centered. Women
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: were permitted to be sexual, but within the confines of
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: a one dimensional view of sexuality that had to in
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: the end satisfy men.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: So there's so many.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: Points to this, because any you and I have talked
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: about this repeatedly, how to the point that Bumble fumbled
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: their thing. We just recently had an episode about how, say,
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: chassidy is not going to be the thing, y'all, You're
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: not going to stick to that come on type of
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: thing to come after women who have decided to stop
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: having sex, or about celibacy or whatever what, or women
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: who is just a sexual that had come into a
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: criticism of that that that being a sexual or vowing
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: celibacy is also like almost anti feminists in some certain realms,
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: like now that we have our sexual liberation to go
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: backwards quote unquote and not having sex. You know that
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: that extreme version which is like no, but we're talking
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: about choice here, which is so often gets left off
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: the table in conversation and in this level of like, yes,
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: they played so hard upon it that they shame you
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: for not being okay with it.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's the damned if you do, damned if you don't.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: If you're a woman, if you have sex, you're a slut.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: We're not going to believe you if you say you
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: come forward about Hugh Hefner, if you don't have sex,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: then you're approved, and Hugh Heffner wouldn't want you run away.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And they say that like it's a threat. But unfortunate,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, we are taught like sexual desirability is
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: a thing and you should want it. Not you should want,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: but you feel like you should. And I've spoken about
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: that my experience with that too. But it is so
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: bizarre to me that when we're having this conversation, it's
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: just like we're trying to make ourselves feel better about
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: rape culture. That's just what it feels like to me
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: is that we're trying to make ourselves feel better about
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: the fact that women are still mostly judged on their
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: body and use their desirability towards men. And Hugh Hefner's
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: a good guy, so you should go with it. And
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: here's all these examples examples as to why we can
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: feel okay about it.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: That's just.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: That's the vibe.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: It's right, I think the lean in well that again.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: I have to say this again about corporations anyway in general,
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: the way they co op things for their own for capitalism,
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: Like in general, whether it's the queer movement LGBTQ month
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: or whether it's like Black History Month, whether it's Women's Month,
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: they do things for name only in order to gain
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: more power. And this sexual liberation was a reach for.
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: Power, and it's no coincidence that they are the ones
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: financially benefiting from it.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: So it's like convincing us.
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: To be super cool with our own exploitation and being
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: a cog in this machine.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Of rape culture.
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: They cash a check from that, right, and so it's
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: like it's just exploitation the whole way.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: Down, right. I did find the interesting conversation about Gloria Stein,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: I'm going undercover as a bunny, and she talked about
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: her experience and how immediately from jump she was like, yeah,
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: this is not good. Yeah, the costumes are bad. I'm
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: gocked at the first thing I was told. I was like,
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: the first thing someone yelled at me as I walked
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: into the club was bunny, Bunny, come here, bibe men
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: of course, and then one of the things that they touted,
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: And they didn't really talk much about this part in
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: the documentary. I don't know if you had any in
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: their memoirs that yes, they actually got pretty good pay.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: So I think they were paid the equivalent like two
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: to three hundred dollars a week, which would equal out
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: to be about seventeen hundred to twenty six hundred dollar
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: I guess today in its value.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true or not, but the
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: amount that.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: They had to pay back to the club for the
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: upkeep actually took home a lot less. They had to
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: pay for their own shoes, they had to pay for
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: any mending of their costume, they had to pay for
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: like any appearance upkeep, the nylons, their stocking or pante hose,
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: whatever tights now I don't know. He's been called so
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: many things their makeup, all of the different things they're
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: like standards or beauty. So whether that's getting facials or
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: nails done or hair done or whatever, they had to
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: upkeep because if they did not upkeep those things they
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: were done, they would be demoted and moved around. They
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: did talk about the fact that the costumes, if you
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: did not fit into their costumes, you had emotions and
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: you were suspended until you could. So at one point
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: a woman came in. She talked about the fact that
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: they were like, you look cute, but you need to
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: lose ten pounds by next Monday to get into the
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: coast or you're not going to be here.
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: It's I mean, if it was like on Monday, next Monday,
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: I have to assume a seven days.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: Right, it was a more time, obviously, like no matter what.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: The longest she had was like ten days, right, Like
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: it was absurd and like they made sure that that
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: was the point. They were talking about how their shoes
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: are so tight or small that they would take their feet,
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: blit bloody feet, put it into their toilet and flush
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: the commode repeatedly to get cold water and get the
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: swelling down so that they could spit back into their
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: shoes and go back out.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: They had the bunny bend. Did you read about this
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: at all?
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: Which where because the corset it's so tight, but you
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: had to One of them showed an example where they're
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: facing away from the table. They're slightly cocked to the side,
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: but they have to dip lean back a little bit
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: with the drink in their hand all the way down
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: and then put it on the table as if you
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: like a contortionist, but never facing the table. It was
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: the most absurd thing that I ever heard in my life.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: I was like, that looks so like And she was
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: an older woman showing and I was like, nah, I
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: can't do that today.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: That's bizarre.
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's something that I that really strikes me about
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: the memoirs of some of the more recent women from
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: Girls next Door, how just how strange some of the
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: stuff is, like being in this orbit, some of the
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: expectations are just bizarre and are cane and specific and
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: just yeah, just like a really weird, difficult thing to
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: have to maintain and have your financial livelihood kind of
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: depend on.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: Right, But not only that, this level of like so
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: they touted again that level of like they protect the women.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: So you know, we saw in the article how they
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: would kick people out if they did these things, if
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: they asked for these things, if they touched the bunnies.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: Apparently that was the like they talked about that rule,
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: do not touch the bunnies. If you touch the bunnies,
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: you're kicked out. You cannot have and the only way
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: you can get into the club was like having a
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: key or a key ring specifically, and like that's how
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: you get in and you get the drinks and all
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: these great things.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Is a big show.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: You're someone someone if you got these things. But if
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: you touch the bunnies, you're out. But two, there was
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: a twofold where yeah, that happened in the club. The
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: minute they were outside of that club, it was done.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: They had no security, They had no one follow out.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: Even if the women reported that they were being stalked
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: by someone or that if someone was coming after them,
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: they did not care. They were like, eh, literally someone
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: who was a bunny mother who essentially like was the
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: boss or manager.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: But you know you have to give a cute name.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: Bunny mother of course was I was told by several
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: women that they were being followed, they're being stalked.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: They were afraid for their lives.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: They're afraid that they were gonna get kidnappyre afraid they're
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: gonna be assaulted. When she would tell the security team,
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: they were like, Eh, it's not a problem outside the club.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: They're big girls. They can handle themselves. Literally being told that,
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: she's like what. So they would try to write these
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: incidents about what was happening some of the big some
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: of the people in the documentary. But on top of that,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: there was another level of being in the club that
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: was a card, so think like gold card or like
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: one of those metal cards, in which they were given
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: unlimited access and they could do whatever they wanted, and
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: they did. Now they would never co worce the women necessarily,
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: but they were encouraged to flirt a lot and take
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: it as you will type of conversations. And when incidents
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: would happen, instead of helping, giving therapy, protecting, they women
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: were fired and they had what they called the cleanup
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: crew to come and fix the situation. So whether it's
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: to make sure to hush people up or to put
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: it under the radar, because they did not need negative
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: things about their clubs or any of the people they
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: talked about. One of the hosts of the Soul Train
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: taking a woman, kidnapping her and logging her up in
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: his room and the only way she was able to
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: escape was she had called them and she was able
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: to get out and see her another person. But he
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: was still allowed at the club. He was never revoked
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: because he was so high in the level.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's it's just such a level of disposable, right,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: how we see women as disposable. Once you age out,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: once you can't do this move, once you're not desirable anymore.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: You're just not important to us other than the money
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: that you can make us.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: Right, if you've been used up and you're going to
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: cause us trouble And this is again like I want
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: to vomit just saying those words, but those are the
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: terms that go through. And if you're going to cause
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: us money, make us, give us a loss of money,
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: you're nothing to us.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Goodbye.
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: When Kendra on Girls next Door asked to be paid
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: to be on the show, they.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Were like, we're not going to pay you.
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: You're all replaceable and disposable, and that like that idea
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: of replaceability that there's you know, a bunch of women
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: who would kill to be here, that'll take your spot
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: like that if you can plain or cause us trouble.
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: How much that was used to keep the whole thing going, Like,
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: it's so interesting, hearing Sam, hearing you describe what it
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: was like in these clubs in the sixties and seventies
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: and how that same thing was being used in the
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: nineties and two thousands to continue to silence and keep
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: these women doing what they wanted.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there were some other stories that I was just like,
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: my god, like some of the things where like people
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: were actually arrested, but again the women were just fired
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: and everybody was told to be quiet, and no one
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: knew about it, even the people who worked in the
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: same clubs and like would hear like legends of things
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: and be like what, I didn't know this, what is happening?
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: And then the other to this is to me And
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: I find this interesting because I'm sure you caught up
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: on this in the memoirs. If whatever reason, Hugh Hefner
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: lost control of a person for the next round of relationships,
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: he upped the ante like he would do ten times more.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Because I remember the Shannon twins talking about the fact
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: that she was like okay, when we came in, Holly
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: would talk about her her experiences, and then when the
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: Shannon twins come in would be like, oh, yeah, we
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: couldn't do that anymore. They wouldn't let us have that
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: because it caused for Holly to be able to leave
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: or Kindred to be able to leave, and so Hugh
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: Hefner would twist that up so that would be harder
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: and harder for people to leave.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and the way like yes, and the way that
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: surveillance was used, like there's only one phone and it's
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: in the hall, so you can't have.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Any kind of private conversation.
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: So it's like, again, these are not things that are
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: happening in a living situation where people are there completely willingly.
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry, they're just not right, Like, nobody surveils my
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: phone calls other than.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: The US government.
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: I bet the person that I meant to be in
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: our relationship with.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: That is not normal. And we were like all.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: Watching that on TV like oh this is great, like right, yeah,
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: totally wholesome, normal stuff.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: It was honestly baffling to go through in these conversations
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: because obviously I'm bouncing back and forth to his empire
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: and what his empire was doing, which he still like
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: had heavy hand in. So when it came to like
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: the Playboy clubs, yes, he had underlings who did what
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: he wanted without him necessarily coming through and being in
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: the front, you know, the face of it. But then
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: we have what's happening with a mansion with things like
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: girls next door and the girlfriends and the wives and
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: the situations.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Where he is catering or he is creating.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: This chaos and is the face of this chaos like that,
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: that's like obviously separate, but both but this entity of
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: what the level of powers, because it's almost more ominous
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: to me to hear these about the Playboy clubs and
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: things that would happen and they literally like organized crime
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: level of covering things up in order to protect this man.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: And that was a conversation that was said almost even
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: those who were advocating for Hugh Hefner specifically, was like,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: what he didn't know, but they were protecting him like
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: this level.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: But that's my thing.
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: It's like, I understand that what's happening in the clubs
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: Hugh Hefner, there's an understanding that he is not personally
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: dictating those policies.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And all of that happening.
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: But it's it's obviously related when you look at how
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: similar it is to how the spheares that he did
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: have a lot of control over his own domestic sphere,
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: and people who would say like, oh, well, he didn't
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: know that was happening, then what is your explanation for
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: his own.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Home life that he maintained.
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: And then hired people to make sure that it was
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: that it was run to his liking? And I just
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: can't see those two things as unrela like, oh, there
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: happened to have been coercive, exploitative, possibly illegal behavior happening here, but.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: He had nothing to do with that. However, here's some similar.
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: Behavior happening decades later in his domestic sphere that was
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: very similar. Obviously there's a correlate, like a relationship between
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: those twoth spheres.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: You would think it'd be easily like, oh, yeah, dug,
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: connect the dots, but the people who want to advocate
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: for him so fiercely refuse to look at those connections.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no, no,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: that's not him. They're just trying to pin in that
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: way is to be a bad guy.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Oh I get this so deeply.
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: I honestly like this might sound weird, but I feel
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: for those people who really feel.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: They need to uphold and defend Hugh Hefner.
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: You know, I'm having the same conversation right now with
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: a lot of people that I love and respect around Diddy.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I think there is something.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: In our culture where if you have to actually look
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: at what this person did and represented and the and
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: what you were complicit in or thought was cool or whatever,
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: the work is so hard, the revelation is so deep
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: that it is that it almost forces you to need
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: jerk be like he would never do that, and if you.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Did do it, they wanted it, or something like that.
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: Like I you know, I think back to this conversation
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: that one of the Cosby survivors said a black woman
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: and she was one of the first black women Cosby
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: survivors to come out on the record and say what
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: he did to her. And she was having a conversation
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: with a black man, and you know, this man came
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: to her and was like, sister, is it true?
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: And she was like, I'm so sorry, but yes.
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: It is, Like how cruelly we were lied to, how
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: cruelly we were taken advantage of.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: And I get it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: I get that peeling back the layers of lies that
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: you believed that you that you felt empowered by is
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: difficult work. And I can understand why in the face
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: of that work you would be like, no, I can't
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: face that. That's too hard. I must defend this institution
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: because it would mean looking at all the times that,
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: like people that you would admired or respected played into this,
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: all the times that you yourself played into it. Like
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: I really do have empathy for how hard it is
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: to look at these situations and see them for what
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: they are.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: But but like, that's the trip of living in our societies.
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: You have to you have to be willing to come
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: to the table and see things clearly and have those
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: tough conversations to do that work.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, because I did not
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: realize and I don't know why I did not make
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: this connection that several of the cases and the allegations
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: toward Bill Cosby originated from the table mansion that I was.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Like, oh, oh oh.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: Because if we had one survivor actually speak about it
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: and went into really sad detail about what was what
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: happened specifically with him in this level. There's this other
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: part of this conversation, which is again a whole other
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: episode in that yes, the likelihood of because several of
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: the people that they talked about and accused out loud
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: named within the playboad Mansion men. Again, we had the
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: Soul Train I cannot remember his name host at that point.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Don Cornelius. He was the main okay, yeah, he was.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: The main I think train host, and then the football player,
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: and then Bill Cosby and I think the other one
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: was finally Roland Polanski and yeah, right, which is like
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: he's still technically isn't he still out in the beout
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: he ran away, right, Yeah, he's in.
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: Europe High Award and like literally, don't even get me
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: started about that mother, because literally celebrities to this day
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: and twenty twenty four will go out of their way
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: to be like, well, you know, his family was killed
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: in the Holocaust and did he really do anything wrong,
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: Like like I am so sorry. People that you like
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: in respect are on the record like whoop.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Goldberg was like, well it wasn't a rape.
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: Rape Like to this day, celebrities go out of their
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: way to defend him, and it makes me want.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: To scream, yeah in twenty twenty four to yourself. You
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: keep it to yourself.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: I'm talking, why are you why you?
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: Well keep talking so I can avoid each other missing
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: I know, never to talk to you or look at
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: you ever again.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And well you're not my kids around your end. Yeah,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: every time I.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: See you, I know, oh, I know who you are.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: I see who you are.
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: But yeah, no, like this is that bigger conversation is
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: like they are more likely to separate. And again, because
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: I didn't quite grasp it, I'm like, oh, it's kind
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: of a prime example. If Hugh Hefner was kept protected
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: instead of being held liable for what was happening at
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: the parties that he held for the girls that he
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: is supposed to be responsible for, and I say responsible for,
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: there are his employees, people he's supposed to be protecting,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: like all of these things, and he came out with nothing,
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Like I really did not figure this stuff out with
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: that case of like, oh my god, all these things
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: are awful. This is like all these things even with
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: the mention of it, I was like, he he came
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: out unscathed.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And I want to say something about Cosby because.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: And I don't.
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: I don't want to derail the conversation. But Cosby was
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: a known entity to the Playboy Club and Playboy parties, right.
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: This was when he was making family friendly comedy and
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: like becoming sort of America's dad. Like when I think
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: about the way that Girls next Door was sort of
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: sold that's wholesome and kind of family friendly, squeaky clean,
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: I keep thinking about Cosby, who his public image was
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: squeaky clean, wholesome, America's dad, blah blah blah, while he
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: was going to these Playboy parties, Like how much it
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: benefits men and allows for men to build up these
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: these ideas about them in public that don't square with
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: who they actually are in reality, and it kind of
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: allows them to test sort of do this in plain sight, right, Like, Oh,
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: I'm a wholesome guy, but I'm going to the Playboy
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: Club every night and like sexually assaulting people regularly.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: You know what it's like.
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: And I guess this whole conversation just goes back to
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: the way that like pr and media and doing good
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: things sometimes all is goes back to creating this dynamic
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: where men get to do whatever they want and.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: People don't ask about it.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: Like there's a the dynamic where it's like, well, don't
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: turnish his legacy. It's like, well, I'm not the one
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: who told him to show about the Playboy club. That
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: was him, So why can't that be part of his legacy?
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: Like that is his legacy, Like it's right point.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: If he did it, if he's known for it, if
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: he has been doing things that have like literally destroyed
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: other lives, that's his legacy. That is a part of
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: his legacy, and it should be it should be worn
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: as proudly as he did it.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Like that's yeah, Like that's that's the end of the conversation.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: And but that's kind of interesting because it does lead
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: to that other love of like Playboy being so wholesome
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: and this conversation about the drugs issue like within the
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: Playboy mansion and who was providing and who was getting,
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: and the conversation of kaeludes.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, refer to that.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: The fact that.
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: Holly again mid two thousands were like, yeah, he had
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: them in his pocket. They were called he called them
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: thigh openers. We thought, like she didn't joke about it,
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: but she said it so nonchalantly that I'm wondering if
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: she caught herself saying that, you know, like it really
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: was like, oh, he called them mist eye openers, And
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: maybe it's just her monotone voice in general, like she
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: doesn't like except for when she's like annoyed, but like
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: it just sounded like yeah, of course, why wouldn't the
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: type of conversation.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: That just blew my mind.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: But on top of that that this is one of
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: the drugs that was used throughout a many perpetrator, like
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: many of the predators who would use different pills like
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: at that point was the drug of choice for what
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: it seemed to like be like Hollywood, whether it was Winstein,
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: whether it's like all of them like wolla, but it
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: seemed to be a conversation and it seemed like commonplace
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: that they just it just was there.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: It blows my mind.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: And in this conversation once again that no one is
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: equating having to use this as rape, like no one
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: except for those who are violent, righted.
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: And I would also add, so, I mean, I don't
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: even know how to put this.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: If you're Hugh Hefner and you're.
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: In your eighties and you are having sex with women,
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: who are nineteen, and in order to maintain your ability
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: to do that, you are using quailuds And that's how
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: that whole thing is happening. How do you also get
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: to enjoy a public reputation as a you know, real
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: fox in the bedroom? Like oh like a real like
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: every like every well, this is such a fantasy, like right,
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: I guess that's what I'm saying, is like how they've
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: been able to build up this world where it's like, yeah,
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: I'm drugging all the women have to be drugged to
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: have sex with me, and I'm enjoying a public image.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: As like the world's best lover.
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: Like those two things can't be possible except for in
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: this fantasy land that you've built up around yourself.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: My image of him has never been that he was
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: a good lover. It was just it was accessible.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: In some of these memoirs like he well, first of all,
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: how good of like if you're getting a vaginal infection, Nope,
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: that's not sexy, But yeah, he is having sex with
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: these like young hot women.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: The women. Fun fact, when they would have these.
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: Orgies, they were a lack because you might be thinking, like, well,
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: maybe the women are having sex with each other and
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: like they're getting something out of it if like Q
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: is not performing good. They were only able to have
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: simulated lesbian sex with each other.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: They could not, like they could.
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: Not actually kiss each other or do things with each other.
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: The women they had to disorder sort of pretend. So
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: even even that is like, yeah, yeah, you really wanted
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: to make sure these women got nothing out of this encounter,
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: that it was as humiliating and unpleasant physically as possible
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: as possible.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the young twins when she they were
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: talking Shannon's they were talking about their first experience with
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: Hugh Hefner. They the way they imply was like it
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: was was domating, like he the first thing he did
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: was obviously.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Whatever's his fantasy for.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: What, Like it's just a whole level of like oh,
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: you just really like decided this is what needs.
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: To be yes, And I guess it goes back to
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: what you were saying about, like, oh, well, don't women
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: want to be sex objects? And like you know, isn't
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: this liberal liberation where like when the sex is demeaning
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: and not physically satisfying, it's not like he was like
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: oh let's make this about your pleasure, like you like, yes,
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: you can be a sex object.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: So like, what do you want? Like, what do you like?
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: What are you? What are your likes? What are you
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: not like? Let's let's make sure this is about you.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: That's not what's going on again.
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: I think there is a world where somebody somewhere could
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: create an empire that that truth maybe truly is about a.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Woman's sexual liberation and pleasure.
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: However, one where what the woman wants is not does
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: not even come up, just.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: Can't be it right, right, And and there's no mention
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: of that. I don't even think he talks about it
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: within his magazines, does he? No, no, no, because he
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: has to give the girl next door. And girl next
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: door can have sex, but they can't have sexual desire.
• 36:06
  Speaker 5: So you're at once made into a sex object, but
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: like in a way unsexed because you were not talking
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: about your desires or what you want, right, And you.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: Have to fit our ideas so we can deman you,
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: and we can be the one to not just the flower,
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: but essentially take that from you.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: It's only liberation if you're being demeaned, ladies, remember that, right.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: Oh my god?
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: And there's so much more that we need to be
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: talking about, because honestly, like this, it went into a
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: deeper conversation about women, apologizing to women and realizing where
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: they filled each other in these documentaries. Again, Sonya Theodore
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: came into a point like, I am so sorry to
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: the women that I brought into this.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: I did not know. I was scared and I ruined
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: your life.
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: Like she came in like a full level of conversation
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: and like to the point that she felt like she
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: had Stockholm syndrome because she had gone through these things
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: thinking it was okay, came back year after year after
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: the year, after breaking up with him, having these great relationships,
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: pretending like telling everyone how great he was, and then
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: realizing like, wait, this was trauma, which is such a
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: natural story for everyone. There was one point of the
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: interview I was telling you about the splits of the
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: documentary where the journalist is talking to a friend of
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: hers who was a boxer who posed for Playboy, and
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: she was talking about she could never say the words rape,
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: she could never say any of these things, but she
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: said I had to give in because they saw me
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: as sexual.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: I was not for Playboy.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: Event this was for her actual career stuff, but describing
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: an incident where after the fact she got a lot
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: of posing for Playboy and being.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Told that she's.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: This now, and she was like, you know, I didn't
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: want to have sech I told him I didn't want to.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: This person was married, but you know I was a
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: part of this industry. That's what they expected. I was
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: a part of their team. So I just went hand
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: gave in. And the reporter was like, oh my god,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: Oh my god. And they were actual friends and she's like,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: you never told me this. You never told me this.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: She's like, I wouldn't quite say it's rape.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: And the friends stopped.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: It's like, no, that's rape. You did not want to
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: do this, And like the woman sat there, was like
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: the athletes sat there and was like okay, like kind.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Of in that level.
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: But that's what you see playing out as these different
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: women are talking about these incidents of like not understanding
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: consent in the first place, not understanding that what was
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: happening was a level of manipulation, and then not understanding
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: that they were a part of the trafficking ring when
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: they were bringing other women in to be a part
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: of this cycle. So this is such a big conversation
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: within that. Again, I told about the one woman who
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: was just going after other women saying, you're just being
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: a gold digger. You knew what you were coming into,
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: which again that phrase was said so many times, Like
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: my heart is racing thinking about now, because the phrase
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: is like you knew what they were we were coming into.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: They knew what they were going into, they knew what
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: this was about, like as if to validate what was happening.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: And it's like, but that that wasn't even like honestly
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: tore into, that wasn't even like opened up to like
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: that level of conversation in this documentary because they really
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: didn't have time and they didn't have the space and
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: the emotional space to really dig through all of that
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: because kind of like reliving the stories and saying it
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: out loud was like, oh, these are the things that happened.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: But again, like.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: And there were a couple of accusations of Hugh Hefner
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: forcibly raping women, which hasn't been said previously, And one
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: one victim spoke up about what she had gone through,
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: and I think this one hit too close to me,
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: like my my own experiences that I almost like threw
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: up like what she was talking about through her own childhood. Uh,
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: and then getting to this point with this man who
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: she told she was told that this was safe, that
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: she was safe, and then being ripped apart, and then
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: everybody ignoring it, and to the point like she went
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: to a higher up who was a woman and was like,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: oh my god, this happened.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: She's like, oh, is that all? You're fine?
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: He's not gonna he's not gonna do anything against you.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: You're fine, Like he's not gonna as it would be retaliatory,
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: or he's not gonna be mean to you for this.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: It's fine. And that was what she had to walk
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: away with.
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: But like those levels like yeah, he has been personally
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: accused of raping women.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: That needs to be said out loud.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: Uh, though everybody else wants to dance around this whole
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: like oh you know she had to be talked into
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: a little.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Bit, or oh we were being paid or whoa, we
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: knew what we were walking into. Do what I like it?
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: Did I want to know? Did I have to smoke
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: a lot of weed? Sure, but we knew, Like that
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: level be like that's still coorcion, that is still considered
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: a type of rape that is still goodainst your will,
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: but like true levels of like that higher level like yeah,
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: this dude got away with it.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: This dude got away with it.
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: And in these conversations again like the wider range he
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: may have got, like there's allegations of him being a
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: part of cover ups of deaths, allegations of cover ups
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: of drug trafficking, like literally FBI.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Like there's just level though, and you almost tell.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: Me, like there's so much of like the anti like
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: anti hero conversations, especially when it comes to drug use
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: and like almost like organized crime level that.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: You root for the bad guys, you know what I mean.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: And that's still that part of you of like.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: Huh, like people would take that and credit him as
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: being cool, you know what I mean, even though social
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: allegations are so gross.
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think the moving drugs, you might
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: look at that and be like, oh, he really knew
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: how to do what it took to keep the party going.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: And it's like, well, also.
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: Moving women as cargo, ascuable cargo, that.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: Part is right, like using them as mules. Yes, yes,
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: it's not quite cool. This is not the thing.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: This is not the thing, but like there's the depths
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: of what goes into the story, like the depths of
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: like things that are hidden. So like we also talked
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: about the exploitation that he had taken, the tapes they
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: had taken, the extra photos, and like all of not
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: only the tapes of them taking pictures being taken, pictures
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: of which had been released to the shock of many
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: of the women, especially like the older women, who had
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: told that this would never exist because that medium hadn't
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: existed at that point or didn't think they needed that
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: at that point, as now being released because Playboy sold
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: it without any of the women consenting nor getting money
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: for it. Once again, and this was not too long ago,
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: but the actual videos made from the security cameras, Like
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: from what I gathered, Mickey Garcia and Sonya Theodore actually
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: came together and started trying to petition to find out
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: what was happening or what happened with those videos, because
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: many of them were so petrified that these would be
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: released and they were told that it is somewhere in
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: the sea. Now I'm wondering, like if people heard that
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: and we're gonna try to find it.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think so.
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: I mean something that you said that six with me
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: is like he got away with it.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: And I feel like where.
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: We are now in twenty twenty four, I'm happy, Like
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: I would have said, yes, I remember when he died,
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: we saw all the conversations about free speech and racial
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: equity and women's lib and sexual freedom and all of that.
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: But I and so it does kind of feel like
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: broadly he got away with it. But I am happy
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: that we are in a place now where women's voices
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: are being elevated in this conversation and that we're actually
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: creating a legacy where maybe he won't get away with it.
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: Maybe we will continue to speak up and continue to
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: listen to people who speak up and not just be like, oh,
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: well they knew what they were getting into their being paid,
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: and actually have a full accounting of his legacy. And
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: even for people who like Hugh Hefner, which obviously I
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: don't think. I don't think anybody will be surprised that
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: we probably don't fit into that category. You should be
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: able to contend with his full legacy.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And this is all part of that legacy. And so
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: if you want to honor who he was, honor him fully.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: This is part of that.
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: Even if you love his free speech and love all
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: the other things that he's done. Don't just take the good,
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: take a full accounting of who the man was.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: Right, right, agreed, And you're right.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: I think that that's got to be something that we
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: have to remember, is that as long as we keep
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: talking about it and making sure we tell the full story,
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: or at least the full story as we know it,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: and continue to unfold for the sake of all the
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: survivor like those who are speaking out, that we support
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: them by making sure that we elevate their voice.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, obviously we had a lot of thoughts,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: we had a lot to say. So Bridgets, where can
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: the good listeners find you?
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: Well, you can find me at my podcast. There are
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: no girls on the internet where we were having similar
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: conversations about the legacy of women and technology and digital media.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you as always, Bridget for being here. We
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: love having you. Clearly we could go on and on
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: and on, so thank you so much for taking the time.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: And this brings us to the end of our epic
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: conversation on Hugh Hefner. Maybe there will be an epilogue,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: as we discussed.
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I honestly there's gonna be so much more because
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: I honestly forgot one big chunk that Honestly, Hugh Hefner's
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: real like the beginning may have been because he was
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: essentially kind of an in cell. Like he may have
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: been essentially an in cell because he changed his whole
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: perspective on women and what he had to be in
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: order to get women. So the legend goes because he
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: was rejected bio girl in his high school to the
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: point that he wrote about her for many years later. Wow,
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: and then this, and then that he changed his whole
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: appearance and his whole, like I guess out like his
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: whole personality essentially according to old friends. So yeah, I
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: think there has to be an epilogue because we definitely,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: even with the two hours that we spent in this conversation,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: there was so much more that we had left out.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: Is intense.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: It's sad how often that is the case of like
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: a guy gets spurned in high school and then becomes
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: the founder of Facebook or what have you. Right, that's
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: not exactly what happened there, but.
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: Similar similar to.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I look forward to and I'm nervous about the epilogue.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: It's always great to hang out with Bridget who's so
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: kind with her time when we kept going and had
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: so much to say. Listeners. If you have any thoughts
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: about this, you can contact us. You can email us
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: at Stephanie moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast our, on
• 47:20
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• 47:22
  Speaker 3: Never Told You.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. I have a tea public store,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get wherever you
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always too, our super produced
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Christina are executive producer, my intruder Joey.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
• 47:33
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