Latest / Drawn of History / Trauma Expert Tim Fletcher _ This Past Weekend w_ Theo Von _495(M4A_128K)

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Trauma Expert Tim Fletcher _ This Past Weekend w_ Theo Von _495(M4A_128K) · Drawn of History

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Speaker 1: I have some tour dates to tell you about. I'll
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Speaker 1: be in Vancouver, B.C. on September 14th, St. Louis, Missouri
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Speaker 1: on April 19th, Halifax, Nova Scotia on August 11th. Get
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Speaker 1: all your tickets at theovon.com slash T-O-U-R. And if tickets
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Speaker 1: are too expensive, don't get them. Hold out. Don't let
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Speaker 1: these Reapers get at you. We'll come back around sometime.
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Speaker 1: Love you guys, and thank you for the support. Today's
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Speaker 1: guest is a speaker, a counselor, and a researcher in
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Speaker 1: the world of complex trauma. He has some amazing videos
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Speaker 1: on YouTube. I really love how he discusses this world
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Speaker 1: and his presentation of it. I'm grateful to spend time
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Speaker 1: with him today via Windsor, Canada. He is here with us.
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Speaker 1: Today's guest is Mr. Tim Fletcher. Tim Fletcher, thanks for
1:20
Speaker 1: joining me, man.
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Speaker 2: My pleasure.
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Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of your videos on YouTube and Um,
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Speaker 1: a lot of it really resonates with me about, uh, trauma, uh,
1:31
Speaker 1: childhood trauma. Um, just a lot of things in that vein.
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Speaker 1: I mean, there's, you have so many wonderful videos out
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Speaker 1: there and I'll, I'll, I'm just thankful you're here today
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Speaker 1: to talk with us about it. Um, I know we
1:45
Speaker 1: want to talk about trauma today and that sort of thing,
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Speaker 1: but it's also like a buzzword. I feel like people
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Speaker 1: use a lot and I don't want this to be, um,
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Speaker 1: like a thing where we're just creating victims or, you
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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Kind of.
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Speaker 2: Yep. Yep. I think lots in the last 10 years,
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Speaker 2: this trauma has kind of come on the radar. Now
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Speaker 2: everybody's talking about everybody's trauma informed and yet people really
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Speaker 2: don't understand it a whole lot. But a lot of
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Speaker 2: the response has been, no, I got somebody to blame. Right.
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Speaker 2: And it's like, no, we can explain now a lot
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Speaker 2: of your behavior, but you got to now take responsibility
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Speaker 2: to change that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I don't want to create a lot
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Speaker 1: of victims today. That's another part. And this isn't a
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Speaker 1: judgment against anybody. This is even for myself. I've had
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Speaker 1: a lot of problems. I'll get trapped in self-pity sometimes.
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Speaker 1: But like you're saying, this is a great place for information.
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Speaker 1: And how do we go about not creating victims? Right.
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Speaker 2: So to me, what trauma is, is pain happens to
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Speaker 2: every child. But a child in a healthy home is
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Speaker 2: able to get tools and support and they can resolve
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Speaker 2: and grow through that. So it's not trauma. It's pain
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Speaker 2: that gets turned into growth. But what happens to a
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Speaker 2: child that can't resolve it? Nobody's supporting them. Nobody's giving
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Speaker 2: them tools to handle it. It turns into trauma. They're
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Speaker 2: a victim. They're a legitimate victim, a helpless victim who
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Speaker 2: can't fix the problem. And so they are legitimate victims.
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Speaker 2: The problem is, is that they still feel like a
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Speaker 2: victim as an adult.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Even though they're not a victim now, they now have
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Speaker 2: tools and support. And that's one of the hardest transitions
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Speaker 2: is to move from, I was a legitimate victim, but
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Speaker 2: now I got to take responsibility because I can. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And some don't want to do that because they like
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Speaker 2: staying a victim because then I don't have to be responsible.
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Speaker 2: People feel sorry for me. I can blame somebody. I
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Speaker 2: don't have to grow up.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah, let's talk about trauma. Let's talk
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Speaker 1: about complex trauma. So what is it? How would we
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Speaker 1: say what it is?
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Speaker 2: So trauma is, so the event happens on the outside,
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Speaker 2: but I can't handle it. It's too painful. It's too
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Speaker 2: scary for me. So it creates this fear and stress
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Speaker 2: that I don't have the tools to handle. And so
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Speaker 2: as a result of that, since I can't fix it
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Speaker 2: and resolve it, it then wounds me on the inside.
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Speaker 2: And that's the trauma is what takes place on the inside.
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Speaker 2: What makes, why we call it complex trauma. So it's
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Speaker 2: really mathematical terms. So there's simple math and there's complex math.
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Speaker 2: So simple is one number. Complex is more than one.
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Speaker 2: So simple trauma is a one event trauma, a car accident,
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Speaker 2: a rape, whatever. Complex is ongoing danger. So a child's
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Speaker 2: in a situation where they're, In ongoing danger, so their
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Speaker 2: stress system is constantly activated like, do I fight, flight?
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Speaker 2: What do I do here? I got to get out
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Speaker 2: of here. I can't handle this. I can't handle this.
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Speaker 2: So that, when a child lives in that environment all
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Speaker 2: the time where they're constantly activated to fight, flight, but
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Speaker 2: if they're too little to fight or flight, then they
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Speaker 2: eventually go, oh, I'm shutting her down.
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Speaker 1: Freeze.
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Speaker 2: I can't. handle this, so they go into this dissociative,
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Speaker 2: let's go into an internal world to protect ourself and
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Speaker 2: create a fantasy world because it's safe there. And so
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Speaker 2: complex trauma comes out of basically abuse or neglect, so
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Speaker 2: the two extreme ends of the spectrum. So the abuse
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Speaker 2: we can easily imagine, that's physical abuse, emotional abuse, that's
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Speaker 2: harsh environment, violence, etc. But A lot of complex trauma
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Speaker 2: comes out of neglect. And that's the other end of
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Speaker 2: the spectrum where all the physical needs of the child
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Speaker 2: were met, but their emotional needs were met. So the
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Speaker 2: abuse trauma, something happens to you. Neglect trauma, something didn't
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Speaker 2: happen to you that should have happened. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And it's hard to find out the neglect trauma. Sometimes
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Speaker 1: it's hard to locate some of it. Because it's like
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Speaker 1: almost feeling around for ghosts is what it feels like.
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Speaker 2: Exactly.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And so that's where we spend a lot of time.
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Speaker 2: So what we've done with it is that we've broken
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Speaker 2: down kind of the emotional needs that a child has.
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Speaker 2: So we have a need to be, a child needs
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Speaker 2: to be authentic and to connect with safe people and
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Speaker 2: really be able to be vulnerable and open up and
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Speaker 2: to be totally accepted for who they are. Have somebody
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Speaker 2: who totally gets them and hears them and sees them
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Speaker 2: and values them and nurtures them. Those are all emotional needs.
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Speaker 2: But if a child grows up in a home where
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Speaker 2: I'm too busy for you or smarten up, get over it,
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Speaker 2: toughen up. Nobody's getting them. Nobody's hearing them. Or why
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Speaker 2: can't you be like your brother, et cetera. All of
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Speaker 2: that is emotional trauma. That's hurting the child emotionally. So
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Speaker 2: the child's not feeling safe to be them. So the
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Speaker 2: child then has to adapt in order to try to
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Speaker 2: protect itself. So I got to be tougher. I can't
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Speaker 2: be so sensitive. I got to wear this mask of
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Speaker 2: being outgoing, et cetera. But that's also how I'm going
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Speaker 2: to try to get my needs met. So maybe if
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Speaker 2: I'm different, then dad will give me more attention. Then
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Speaker 2: mom won't be so angry at me all the time.
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Speaker 2: So they're adapting, adapting, trying to get their needs met,
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Speaker 2: trying to keep safe.
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Speaker 1: And they don't even know who they are a lot
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Speaker 1: of times.
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Speaker 2: And that's what happens.
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Speaker 1: They don't even really develop.
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Speaker 2: They don't have a clue who they are after a
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Speaker 2: while because they're so... busy trying to be something they're
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Speaker 2: not to get acceptance and love because they know if
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Speaker 2: they're authentic. So in a healthy situation of you're authentic,
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Speaker 2: you connect and you're loved. In complex trauma, if you're authentic,
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Speaker 2: you get rejected.
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Speaker 1: And so then you'll, yeah, then you pull that authenticity
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Speaker 1: back in, especially if you're really young, you don't even
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Speaker 1: know you're still learning so much about yourself or evolving,
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Speaker 1: who even knows what happens to when you redirect that river.
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Speaker 2: Exactly.
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Speaker 1: That's supposed to be normal. It just becomes a, it
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Speaker 1: just damn floods everything.
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Speaker 2: Exactly.
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Speaker 1: It can get some real sewage going on.
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Speaker 2: So what happens when the child is neglected is the
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Speaker 2: child basically thinks everything, it must be their fault. So
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Speaker 2: the reason dad's too busy must be because I'm not
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Speaker 2: good enough. The reason mom's angry is I'm not good enough.
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Speaker 2: So they begin to develop this core self-identity that something's
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Speaker 2: wrong with me, I'm not good enough, so I have
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Speaker 2: to change and be somebody else in order to get
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Speaker 2: acceptance and love.
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Speaker 1: Why does a child develop, why does a child, because
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Speaker 1: the world revolves around them when they're a child, they
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Speaker 1: only know themselves, and so they have no one else
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Speaker 1: to blame if something is wrong in the world?
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Speaker 2: So we refer to it, so the child brain is basically,
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Speaker 2: what's developed is the limbic brain, which is the emotional center,
8:44
Speaker 2: so the cortex hasn't developed yet. And so it's called
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Speaker 2: egocentric thinking. So everything they see through their eyes that
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Speaker 2: affects them, they caused it. Everything is related to them somehow.
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Speaker 2: So if dad's too busy or mom and dad get
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Speaker 2: a divorce, I must have done something wrong. It must
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Speaker 2: be my fault. If I get sexually abused, I must
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Speaker 2: have brought it on. So everything is an egocentric way
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Speaker 2: of thinking.
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Speaker 1: I see, because they're really the only player on the court,
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Speaker 1: kind of.
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Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. And so then what happens though with that
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Speaker 2: is they make adjustments, hoping to get love and acceptance
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Speaker 2: and get their needs met and stay safe. But something
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Speaker 2: way back here now goes, you're phony. So they get
9:27
Speaker 2: the imposter syndrome, which says you're getting love and acceptance.
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Speaker 2: But if they knew the real you, they wouldn't be
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Speaker 2: giving you that love and acceptance because you're an imposter.
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Speaker 2: So the solution hasn't fixed the problem. It's still unresolved.
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Speaker 2: So that's where complex trauma then, it's still not fixed.
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Speaker 2: So I'm still in fight or flight. So I got
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Speaker 2: to come up with a new persona. I got to
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Speaker 2: come up with a new.
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Speaker 1: Mechanism.
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Speaker 2: To try and get my needs met, but I never
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Speaker 2: can find a solution that totally satisfies.
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Speaker 1: So it's more than one trauma that happens to a child, right?
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Speaker 1: And they don't have somebody there to help them process it.
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Speaker 1: Can children have different levels of trauma or no trauma
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Speaker 1: if they have somebody there to help them process it? Right.
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Speaker 2: So there's degrees of trauma from very severe to very mild.
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Speaker 2: And so the latest studies, and Gabor Maté in his book,
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Speaker 2: The Myth of Normal, has published them to say 75%
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Speaker 2: of Americans have this subtle complex trauma. And basically, it's
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Speaker 2: a child that, so if a child is always being
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Speaker 2: made teased by parents or ignored by parents. Dad's always busy.
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Speaker 2: Dad's in this chair next to him, but he's always
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Speaker 2: watching TV. So he's physically there, but he's not there emotionally.
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Speaker 2: The child just doesn't feel loved and accepted. So they
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Speaker 2: don't feel safe. They don't feel they can totally relax.
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Speaker 2: They have to somehow earn that connection, earn that love.
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Speaker 2: And so a child has this inner trauma taking place
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Speaker 2: that's happening that's so subtle, but it's powerful. And it's
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Speaker 2: really major upheaval internally that's taking place inside the child.
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Speaker 1: It's forming how they're going to behave.
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Speaker 2: Well, exactly. So now they're going to start these behaviors
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Speaker 2: to try to get attention, to try to get connection.
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Speaker 1: But is some of that natural too?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because a child, and it's built off very natural things.
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Speaker 2: So the child has a natural personality, so they can
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Speaker 2: be naturally funny, but then they can take that to just,
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Speaker 2: I got to be funny all the time.
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Speaker 1: I see.
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Speaker 2: They can be naturally very, every child wants to please
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Speaker 2: and love, but now I'm going to be a hero.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to get straight A's. I'm going to do
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Speaker 2: all the chores. I'm going to be a workaholic, because
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Speaker 2: that's how I'll get validation and acceptance.
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Speaker 1: Got it.
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Speaker 2: So you were just talking about, Isn't some of that
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Speaker 2: natural for a child? So that being wanting to help
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Speaker 2: with the chores, that's a wonderful instinct that a child has.
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Speaker 2: But now they're going to turn that into a maladaptation.
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Speaker 2: So now I'm going to be a people pleaser. Or
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Speaker 2: I'm going to be a perfectionist. Everything's got to be
12:21
Speaker 2: perfect or I'm going to please never say no to anybody.
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Speaker 2: But then I'm going to burn myself out and I'm
12:27
Speaker 2: going to kill myself. So that adaptation.
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Speaker 1: You just mean burn yourself out. Yeah. Okay.
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Speaker 2: That adaptation, pleasing people and all of that, has become
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Speaker 2: a maladaptation. It's now hurting me.
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Speaker 1: I see. So a lot of children with complex trauma
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Speaker 1: have maladaptations.
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Speaker 2: They all do. They all do.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:46
Speaker 2: Okay.
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Speaker 1: And what are some symptoms of complex trauma that you
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Speaker 1: can see in people?
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Speaker 2: So very common ones is that they don't know who
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Speaker 2: they are because they've had to wear masks all their life.
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Speaker 2: and they become people pleasers. Most have anger issues. Most
13:04
Speaker 2: have authority issues because all the authorities of their life
13:07
Speaker 2: have not been healthy. Um, most have some control manipulation
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Speaker 2: issues that are part of that. Um, lot have lying issues.
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Speaker 2: They lie when it would just as be as just
13:20
Speaker 2: as easy to tell the truth, but lying is what
13:23
Speaker 2: they had to do to kind of stay safe. Um,
13:26
Speaker 2: because truth got them in trouble. There's a fear of failure,
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Speaker 2: a fear of change, a fear even of success, because
13:36
Speaker 2: it's like, uh-oh, everything's going too good. The other shoe's
13:39
Speaker 2: going to drop. Something bad's going to happen. So now
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Speaker 2: I better sabotage it.
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Speaker 1: Wow.
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Speaker 2: So there's lots. It's a fear-driven thing, the fear of rejection.
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Speaker 2: There's a desire for intimacy, but a fear of intimacy,
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Speaker 2: because then you're going to get to know me. then
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Speaker 2: you're going to reject me. Deep fear of abandonment that
14:01
Speaker 2: anybody that gets to know me leaves me. And so
14:04
Speaker 2: that you can see all of that becomes problematic in
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Speaker 2: relationship stuff and then trust issues.
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Speaker 1: Oh, God. Tim, you're, man, a lot I can, I can, yeah,
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Speaker 1: I can relate to a lot of those things, you know?
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Speaker 1: And I have to be careful when I think about–
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Speaker 1: because at certain points in my life, I've had those things.
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Speaker 1: But I have to be careful that I don't immediately
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Speaker 1: attach it to being a victim. Even when I'm thinking
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Speaker 1: about it right now, I don't want to be like, okay,
14:37
Speaker 1: some of those things I've had in my life, man,
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Speaker 1: what a piece of shit I am.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: Because that's what will happen sometimes for me.
14:45
Speaker 2: And if I can interrupt. Yeah, no, please. So what
14:48
Speaker 2: I would say is the core– The worst result that
14:52
Speaker 2: comes out of complex trauma is how it changes your self-identity.
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Speaker 2: So a child that's loved and accepted is a positive self-identity.
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Speaker 2: I have value. I have something to offer to the world.
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Speaker 2: A child with complex trauma that's felt neglected, it's my fault.
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Speaker 2: I must not be good enough. They have a negative self-identity.
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Speaker 2: And so because of that, I am a piece of shit.
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Speaker 2: Whoever would want to get to know me And so
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Speaker 2: I need to hide who I really am. So that
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Speaker 2: core identity just affects every decision they make, every relationship
15:28
Speaker 2: response that they have. And that's probably the most hidden
15:33
Speaker 2: part of complex trauma, the hardest thing for people to see,
15:38
Speaker 2: because who understands shame? What's shame? What's that? But once
15:42
Speaker 2: you understand it, it's like, whoa, that changes everything. And
15:47
Speaker 2: that's where the healing really has to take place.
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Speaker 1: Man, it's so funny you say some of this. There'll
15:56
Speaker 1: be times where, yeah, a lot of times I'll take
16:02
Speaker 1: it to relationships. If a girl rejected me or wouldn't
16:05
Speaker 1: look at me, man, it would attach itself to a
16:11
Speaker 1: place in me, almost like a thought. got into a
16:16
Speaker 1: Ferris wheel and I didn't even know the Ferris wheel
16:18
Speaker 1: was going, but this thought got into the Ferris wheel,
16:21
Speaker 1: like a person getting into a little Ferris wheel compartment.
16:26
Speaker 1: And the Ferris wheel was just like, you are just,
16:30
Speaker 1: you are horrible.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
16:32
Speaker 1: You are. And it just, and it was just like
16:34
Speaker 1: feeding this old thing, but it would, it was crazy
16:37
Speaker 1: how quick it would go from maybe if I'd asked
16:40
Speaker 1: a girl to a dance or even if I just
16:42
Speaker 1: had some interest in my head, but she never looked
16:44
Speaker 1: at me or something in a, I would immediately be like, God, man,
16:48
Speaker 1: what a fucking, you must just have, you must just
16:52
Speaker 1: be gross. So is that crazy to say that to you?
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Speaker 2: Not at all. Cause shame, one of the most powerful
17:00
Speaker 2: aspects of shame is that it creates this inner critic
17:03
Speaker 2: in our brain. That's caught no matter what we do,
17:06
Speaker 2: it criticizes it. It finds fault with it. And if
17:10
Speaker 2: we fail, especially it just beats us up. And like,
17:14
Speaker 2: We're in the doghouse for weeks. It's just flogging us.
17:18
Speaker 2: And it's just loud and it is brutal there. Yeah.
17:23
Speaker 1: It would be everything. You're poor. Your body's gross. Yes.
17:25
Speaker 2: You're ugly. You're stupid.
17:28
Speaker 1: You're ugly. You're stupid.
17:29
Speaker 2: Nobody, everybody want you. You're never amount to anything. You're
17:32
Speaker 2: a failure.
17:33
Speaker 1: I mean, it was like a machine gun.
17:35
Speaker 2: Yes.
17:37
Speaker 1: And the craziest part was now I have a little
17:38
Speaker 1: bit more, I'm able to see it more. But man.
17:42
Speaker 1: For 30 years of my life, I couldn't even see it. Yes.
17:45
Speaker 2: And that's, so what happens, complex trauma for most people
17:51
Speaker 2: begins from birth.
17:54
Speaker 1: Okay.
17:55
Speaker 2: And so it's pre-memory time, pre-verbal time. And so a
17:59
Speaker 2: lot of the stuff that's happening in their brain is
18:01
Speaker 2: all happening subconsciously. They're not thinking about it. They're an infant. Yeah.
18:07
Speaker 2: It's all subconscious. So your whole subconscious brain.
18:12
Speaker 1: Is forming.
18:13
Speaker 2: Is forming with all this negative stuff. Um, and that's
18:19
Speaker 2: a real tragedy of complex traumas. It's shaping the brain
18:22
Speaker 2: in the infant years with negative messages, lies, negative perceptions
18:29
Speaker 2: that you're not even aware of there. You just think
18:32
Speaker 2: are normal.
18:33
Speaker 1: And those can be like a parent not looking at
18:35
Speaker 1: its child and not interacting. There's probably countless things that
18:40
Speaker 1: could create trauma at that age, right?
18:43
Speaker 2: Exactly. So what we know is a child needs to
18:47
Speaker 2: feel safe. They need lots of hugs and touches. They
18:52
Speaker 2: need eye contact. That's how they learn to regulate. That's
18:56
Speaker 2: how they learn to feel and experience emotions by picking
18:59
Speaker 2: up on the parent's emotions. That's how their emotions get
19:02
Speaker 2: calmed by looking into somebody who's calm. But if they
19:07
Speaker 2: don't have that, then it's like it's me against the
19:11
Speaker 2: big bad world and I'm only one week old. Like
19:14
Speaker 2: it's too overwhelming. It's too scary.
19:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to be a gangster suddenly.
19:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:19
Speaker 1: And you're only seven days old.
19:21
Speaker 2: Exactly.
19:22
Speaker 1: And you can't even carry a gun.
19:23
Speaker 2: Exactly.
19:24
Speaker 1: Exactly. And so that's a lot of pressure. Oh. Imagine
19:28
Speaker 1: the pressure that a kid starts to feel, a child
19:30
Speaker 1: starts to feel.
19:31
Speaker 2: And that's why I say that's your stress system is activated.
19:35
Speaker 2: And that's what we mean. That's complex trauma.
19:38
Speaker 1: So that makes sense as to why, like if certain
19:40
Speaker 1: things will happen in adulthood, it'll immediately cause stresses in me,
19:44
Speaker 1: even if it's just normal. Like I'd have a lot
19:46
Speaker 1: of instances where, like even in intimacy situations where women,
19:50
Speaker 1: like somebody would touch me and it would make me,
19:53
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19:59
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20:04
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20:08
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20:12
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20:15
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20:19
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20:20
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20:20
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23:09
Speaker 2: Can I just share some science stuff here? Yeah. I
23:14
Speaker 2: think it's really helpful to understand trauma. You really need
23:18
Speaker 2: to understand our central nervous system. And so it's really
23:21
Speaker 2: made up of two parts. So there's the sympathetic nervous
23:24
Speaker 2: system and the parasympathetic. So the sympathetic is your work energy.
23:30
Speaker 2: It gives you the energy to fight or flight, to
23:34
Speaker 2: work hard, get up in the morning, go, go, go.
23:37
Speaker 2: But then you need a parasympathetic, a balancing part. That's
23:40
Speaker 2: your rest, healing, restoration piece. So a child has to
23:45
Speaker 2: have that in balance to be healthy, to grow. But
23:49
Speaker 2: what happens in complex trauma when you're in danger all
23:52
Speaker 2: the time is you're in your sympathetic all the time.
23:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:56
Speaker 2: Because you've got to be on guard. You've got to
23:57
Speaker 2: be going. You've got to get validation. You've got to
24:01
Speaker 2: prove yourself. You've got to work. You've got to earn.
24:04
Speaker 2: So you've got to go, go, go. You're driven. And
24:08
Speaker 2: so the brain helps you with that. It releases cortisol
24:12
Speaker 2: when fear and your stress system is activated, and that
24:16
Speaker 2: releases adrenaline. So you can go on adrenaline. That gives
24:18
Speaker 2: you lots of energy. And you feel, hey, I can
24:21
Speaker 2: pull this off. And if you're young, you've got the
24:23
Speaker 2: resources to do that. But the problem is you're not
24:26
Speaker 2: engaging your parasympathetic. And usually around 30 or so, it
24:31
Speaker 2: catches up with you.
24:32
Speaker 1: Wow.
24:33
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden your body says, I'm not
24:36
Speaker 2: doing this anymore.
24:37
Speaker 1: Right.
24:37
Speaker 2: You're burning me out here and I'm going to start
24:40
Speaker 2: shutting down. And one of the first things it does
24:43
Speaker 2: to help engage the parasympathetic is to bring on depression.
24:48
Speaker 2: Because depression brings in the parasympathetic and it forces you
24:52
Speaker 2: to slow down. It forces you to shut down. And
24:55
Speaker 2: then for some, they keep pushing. They keep pushing. And
24:59
Speaker 2: some go to drugs because drugs will give you the
25:01
Speaker 2: energy to keep going. And then your body actually just
25:06
Speaker 2: burns itself out and shuts itself down. And you have
25:09
Speaker 2: a total, not just an emotional burnout, you have a
25:11
Speaker 2: physical burnout. Wow.
25:14
Speaker 1: So your body can create depression in order to give
25:18
Speaker 1: the parasympathetic, because then you're at least going to slow down.
25:21
Speaker 2: Exactly.
25:22
Speaker 1: Even if there's these other side effects of how you
25:24
Speaker 1: feel about it. Exactly.
25:25
Speaker 2: Exactly. So what happens to a little child is how
25:29
Speaker 2: do they learn the parasympathetic? They, we call it a co-regulator.
25:34
Speaker 2: So mom or dad is regulated emotionally, is calm. They're
25:38
Speaker 2: in their parasympathetic. So they look them in the eyes
25:41
Speaker 2: and they regulate their own nervous system to mom and dad.
25:45
Speaker 2: But if mom and dad are absent or mom and
25:48
Speaker 2: dad are angry all the time, your regulator's not there
25:53
Speaker 2: or they're regulated. So they're triggering you and keeping you
25:58
Speaker 2: full of fear and anxiety. Wow. So it's messing you up.
26:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
26:03
Speaker 2: Or if you have parents that just are work, work, work.
26:08
Speaker 2: If you relax, you're lazy. If you relax, you're selfish.
26:12
Speaker 2: They're forcing you by this work ethic to be out
26:17
Speaker 2: of balance. And actually it's creating very subtle complex trauma
26:22
Speaker 2: because you're just a workaholic. and you feed off it,
26:26
Speaker 2: and you're driven. But what happens is that's normal.
26:31
Speaker 1: Right. So then you're creating a normal that is extremely abnormal.
26:35
Speaker 2: Exactly.
26:36
Speaker 1: Man, I, yeah, just to have some part, like, yeah,
26:42
Speaker 1: my mother didn't look at me, right, when I was
26:46
Speaker 1: a child. I don't remember, I don't, Like, and I
26:50
Speaker 1: don't say that I don't need sympathy or anything. I'm
26:52
Speaker 1: just saying that as an adult, right? Recognizing that this
26:55
Speaker 1: child wasn't looked at in the eyes. My mother, like,
27:00
Speaker 1: I love my mother. I'm thankful for her. I'm glad
27:02
Speaker 1: I exist. And, but yeah, she, if there were an
27:08
Speaker 1: emotional thing, she couldn't connect. Like she almost had like
27:11
Speaker 1: an emotional autism. Yes. Like if I, if they were physical,
27:14
Speaker 1: if I got hurt, she could help. Right. The second
27:17
Speaker 1: I got hurt. But if I'm sitting across from her
27:20
Speaker 1: feeling a certain way, it doesn't even, it's like she
27:25
Speaker 1: wouldn't come to me. She can't come to me. She
27:29
Speaker 1: couldn't hug me for more than like half a second.
27:32
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that as like a whiny baby.
27:34
Speaker 1: I'm trying to relate to some of the stuff you're
27:38
Speaker 1: talking about. So one of the things that happened was
27:40
Speaker 1: I noticed as I got older, I didn't know how long,
27:43
Speaker 1: and my father was a senior citizen and he was
27:45
Speaker 1: really absent. I didn't know how long to look into
27:49
Speaker 1: somebody's eyes, I remember. So I'd have this weird stuff
27:53
Speaker 1: sometimes where I would like check in with somebody's eyes,
27:56
Speaker 1: but then look away while I was explaining myself, man.
27:59
Speaker 1: Makes me feel bad for myself. It doesn't make me
28:01
Speaker 1: feel bad as an adult, but it makes me feel
28:03
Speaker 1: bad that that kid had to do that.
28:07
Speaker 2: So can I speak scientifically to that again? You're okay? Okay.
28:14
Speaker 2: So the first response to danger is, is the brain
28:17
Speaker 2: releases cortisol, which is adrenaline, and that gives you the
28:20
Speaker 2: energy to fight or flight. So you can fight harder,
28:26
Speaker 2: you can run faster, because you've got adrenaline happening. But
28:30
Speaker 2: if you're too little to fight or flight, then cortisol's
28:35
Speaker 2: not doing you any good. And if your parents are
28:39
Speaker 2: punishing you for being angry, etc., the brain then... switches
28:44
Speaker 2: and produces opioids, natural opioids. And it says, we're going
28:48
Speaker 2: to shut down. And so what happens with that is
28:51
Speaker 2: that you dissociate, you move inward and all the blood
28:56
Speaker 2: comes from the muscles around the heart, because it's basically
29:00
Speaker 2: saying we're going to get ready to get hurt. We're
29:03
Speaker 2: going to get ready to get cut. So we don't
29:05
Speaker 2: bleed as much. So we're going to put all the
29:07
Speaker 2: blood around here so that if we get hurt out here,
29:10
Speaker 2: cut out here, nothing is, we're not going to bleed
29:12
Speaker 2: as much. Really?
29:13
Speaker 1: Your body does that? Yeah. No way. Yeah.
29:15
Speaker 2: So your body's now gone to that fight or flight
29:18
Speaker 2: don't work. So now we're going to freeze. And so
29:22
Speaker 2: then what some kids learn in freeze is, but I
29:25
Speaker 2: still need my needs met. So now I learned to fawn.
29:29
Speaker 2: So I will learn to say whatever you want me
29:32
Speaker 2: to say, be whatever you want me to be. Just
29:35
Speaker 2: don't hurt me. Just put up with me.
29:38
Speaker 1: Wow.
29:39
Speaker 2: So that's your... four Fs that develop. But what happens.
29:44
Speaker 1: What are they again so we know them?
29:45
Speaker 2: Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.
29:47
Speaker 1: Wow.
29:48
Speaker 2: But what has happened is, so fight or flight, you're basically,
29:53
Speaker 2: your emotions are out there. Freeze, your emotions go in.
30:00
Speaker 2: you shut them down. And so most people with complex
30:03
Speaker 2: trauma don't do well with emotions. They shut down emotions.
30:08
Speaker 2: They don't even know they have emotions. And so what
30:11
Speaker 2: we say is that most complex trauma families, they have
30:14
Speaker 2: three emotions, mad, sad, and glad. So dad can be mad.
30:19
Speaker 2: Mom can be sad, but the kid's got to be glad. Man.
30:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember like, uh, I would ask people, how
30:29
Speaker 1: do I feel about this? Which is crazy, man. I
30:33
Speaker 1: know some of this I know sounds maybe crazy to
30:35
Speaker 1: some people, but yeah, I remember I just didn't even
30:38
Speaker 1: have any, I didn't know how I felt about anything.
30:42
Speaker 1: I just knew how you felt and how I needed
30:46
Speaker 1: a scene. Yes.
30:47
Speaker 2: And so what happens to a child who's fawning... Is
30:50
Speaker 2: I'm more attuned to how you're feeling than to how
30:53
Speaker 2: I'm feeling.
30:54
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I was falling. I was a damn Bambi, baby.
30:56
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? I was like a Bambi
30:58
Speaker 1: in Memphis.
31:01
Speaker 2: So I know your emotions better than my own. I
31:03
Speaker 2: know what you think and believe more than what I think.
31:06
Speaker 1: Right.
31:08
Speaker 2: Because that's how I need to survive is I need
31:10
Speaker 2: to be more attuned to you than I am to me. Yeah.
31:15
Speaker 1: For me, I noticed like, well, for a long time,
31:19
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going on. And for me,
31:21
Speaker 1: I got into recovery programs in the 12-step and that
31:24
Speaker 1: helped me for the first time have a little bit
31:27
Speaker 1: of a clue. I heard people share stuff that things
31:30
Speaker 1: I could never put into words. I mean, that was
31:33
Speaker 1: one of the blessings about being in sometimes recovery in
31:35
Speaker 1: 12-step rooms was you had like 20 people thinking at once.
31:40
Speaker 1: And so sometimes someone would say what you have to
31:44
Speaker 1: wanted to and couldn't. And so that gave me a
31:47
Speaker 1: first start to look at my at myself. I was
31:51
Speaker 1: so like, I was so stuck to me. I couldn't
31:58
Speaker 1: see me at all. Well, and so some ways that, um,
32:05
Speaker 1: that like things that were having a tough time in
32:07
Speaker 1: my life, huge problems, trusting people didn't trust huge problems
32:12
Speaker 1: with that. Um, one thing I noticed really recently, still
32:16
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations, uh, of myself And other people. And I've
32:23
Speaker 1: always had them. You know, it's like, and I realize
32:28
Speaker 1: that it's, I think some of it is like, I
32:32
Speaker 1: want to make it so, like, if I have unrealistic
32:34
Speaker 1: expectations of myself, then I'm never going to be able
32:38
Speaker 1: to achieve them.
32:38
Speaker 2: The bar's too high.
32:39
Speaker 1: Right. And then I'll always be what I thought I
32:42
Speaker 1: always was anyway.
32:43
Speaker 2: Exactly.
32:44
Speaker 1: Which was not enough.
32:46
Speaker 2: So that's where shame creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.
32:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's like– and now I'm able to see
32:54
Speaker 1: that a little. But before, I was just stuck on
32:57
Speaker 1: that Ferris wheel. And I still– it still happens. That's
33:02
Speaker 1: a tough one recently for me. Oh, self-pity. That was
33:07
Speaker 1: a huge one. That was my biggest drug in life
33:11
Speaker 1: that I never realized was self-pity. And I reframed it
33:15
Speaker 1: for myself. I was like, oh, if I just keep trying,
33:17
Speaker 1: I'll get everything. I have to work harder. I have
33:21
Speaker 1: to be better. I can't go do something fun with
33:24
Speaker 1: my friends. I need to stay and write a book.
33:26
Speaker 1: It was just like these unrealistic expectations. But I was
33:31
Speaker 1: always keeping myself in a place of self-pity without realizing it.
33:35
Speaker 1: Because that was a side effect of having unrealistic expectations.
33:39
Speaker 1: And man, that self-pity was... But it looked like on
33:42
Speaker 1: the outside I was trying to better myself. So it was...
33:45
Speaker 1: I was always.
33:47
Speaker 2: Does it make any sense to you? So can I
33:48
Speaker 2: ask you with that? Because what you're describing is very
33:51
Speaker 2: common in the world I work in. So a lot
33:54
Speaker 2: would say unrealistic expectations. So you're always setting the bar
33:57
Speaker 2: too high for yourself, which is always leading to failure,
34:01
Speaker 2: which is self-pity as the aftermath. But what you're thinking is,
34:07
Speaker 2: but I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. But what's happening
34:11
Speaker 2: often with the self-pity, and so here's my question, is
34:15
Speaker 2: there's this Growing sense of helplessness and hopelessness. Did you
34:20
Speaker 2: go through that? Or was there always, I can somehow
34:23
Speaker 2: rise above if I just dig a little deeper?
34:25
Speaker 1: That was me.
34:26
Speaker 2: Okay. And that's what I was talking about with the
34:31
Speaker 2: sympathetic nervous system. I'm getting tired. I'm starting to burn out.
34:36
Speaker 2: But if I dig a little deeper, I can push,
34:39
Speaker 2: I can push, I can keep going until you eventually
34:42
Speaker 2: do burn out.
34:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where societal– the society affected me because there
34:47
Speaker 1: was always that you have to grind harder. The 70-minute
34:51
Speaker 1: work week or something or like the four-minute relationship. There's
34:55
Speaker 1: all these books. I'm like, what? This is unrealistic, man.
34:59
Speaker 1: You know? The 50-second life. And you're like, why would
35:02
Speaker 1: I even want to do that?
35:04
Speaker 2: Exactly.
35:05
Speaker 1: And so that's where society even pushed me even further.
35:08
Speaker 1: And about four years ago, I had like a breakdown.
35:10
Speaker 1: It was like– I was burnt out. I couldn't even
35:13
Speaker 1: listen to somebody talk because there was no– Yes, you
35:16
Speaker 1: can't concentrate. And it made me– it physically exhausted me
35:20
Speaker 1: to listen to somebody in a conversation. And I kept working.
35:26
Speaker 2: Yes.
35:27
Speaker 1: There's an episode of this podcast where I felt it
35:30
Speaker 1: was just– man. And just the fact that I– then
35:33
Speaker 1: I started to feel bad that I treated myself that way.
35:38
Speaker 2: Anyway. Can I share a little bit from me? Yeah, please, man.
35:41
Speaker 2: I got into this work over 20 years ago, but
35:45
Speaker 2: that was after seven years of burnout. Wow. So I
35:50
Speaker 2: had worked for, um, until I was 32 and all
35:54
Speaker 2: of a sudden I was just tired all the time.
35:58
Speaker 2: I couldn't sleep. I was just, and my eyes were
36:02
Speaker 2: getting like My wife would go, something's wrong with you.
36:04
Speaker 2: Your eyes are really looking weird.
36:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're looking big. You're about to eat a fly.
36:09
Speaker 2: They get dark. And I went to doctor after doctor
36:13
Speaker 2: and eventually put me on disability. But I went through
36:17
Speaker 2: seven years of depression and hell and anxiety. And when
36:23
Speaker 2: I came to the end of what the government would
36:26
Speaker 2: give me for disability– I had to go back to work.
36:29
Speaker 2: So I just worked on farms. I milked cows. I
36:32
Speaker 2: took care of horses. Oh, yeah. And that was very
36:35
Speaker 2: healing for me. That was very therapeutic. But then a
36:39
Speaker 2: lady I knew, she came to me and said, Tim,
36:43
Speaker 2: we really need help with this treatment center. And I
36:46
Speaker 2: think you'd be the perfect counselor.
36:49
Speaker 1: And that cow's out of milk.
36:51
Speaker 2: And I said, I think you got the wrong guy.
36:55
Speaker 2: I can't go back to that. And she came back
37:01
Speaker 2: about three months later and she said, Tim, I think
37:04
Speaker 2: you're the guy. Please give it some thought. And I said, okay,
37:06
Speaker 2: I'll go for the interview. But when I went for
37:10
Speaker 2: the interview and I said, okay, I'll give it a
37:11
Speaker 2: try for three months. But I told myself, if you
37:15
Speaker 2: don't make some major changes in how you go about working,
37:19
Speaker 2: you're not going to make it. So you got to
37:23
Speaker 2: radically change. change your boundaries in life and people pleasing
37:28
Speaker 2: and all of that. But the first week, as I
37:32
Speaker 2: was working with these people with trauma and addiction, I
37:36
Speaker 2: was like, this is what I was made for.
37:38
Speaker 1: Wow.
37:39
Speaker 2: These are my people. And I fell in love with it.
37:43
Speaker 2: But it came after, all of my work came after
37:46
Speaker 2: seven years of hell burnout that I brought on myself
37:52
Speaker 2: because of my trauma.
37:54
Speaker 1: But you didn't know it though, right?
37:56
Speaker 2: No, I thought I was doing the right thing by
37:58
Speaker 2: pushing myself. I was being a responsible father and husband. And, uh,
38:04
Speaker 2: so I had a four year old, a three year
38:06
Speaker 2: old and a one year old.
38:08
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. So you guys were really making love on
38:11
Speaker 1: the soul.
38:11
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden their dad just was sick
38:14
Speaker 2: and in bed all the time. And they basically all
38:17
Speaker 2: went through abandonment trauma because their dad disappeared from their
38:20
Speaker 2: life for seven years.
38:22
Speaker 1: Um, And were you using drugs? Did you use pills
38:26
Speaker 1: and stuff? You didn't. You were just depressed. Yeah.
38:28
Speaker 2: Wow.
38:29
Speaker 1: Well, one of the toughest things I found when I
38:31
Speaker 1: was struggling was when I was physically struggling, right? Like
38:35
Speaker 1: I had gotten so depleted that all the doctors I
38:41
Speaker 1: would go to, they couldn't really diagnose it. You know,
38:44
Speaker 1: they would take my blood.
38:44
Speaker 2: Chronic fatigue syndrome.
38:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you're looking up all these crazy things. And
38:48
Speaker 1: then you're wearing, you know, like at one point I
38:50
Speaker 1: was just like, I had on like one of those,
38:52
Speaker 1: I'd bought like a posture organizer from the uh thing
38:56
Speaker 1: and i just had like a couple like some shake
38:58
Speaker 1: weights and some like some weighted anklets on and people
39:01
Speaker 1: like what are you doing and i'm like they say
39:04
Speaker 1: this works you know.
39:05
Speaker 2: Like try the bracelet.
39:07
Speaker 1: Oh everything oh my whoop bracelet.
39:10
Speaker 2: Just kept calling people bring me little mason jars of
39:14
Speaker 2: their home concoctions.
39:19
Speaker 1: Um and yeah um And one of the toughest places
39:24
Speaker 1: for me too was it was relationships and it still is,
39:27
Speaker 1: you know, um, it still is, uh, a really tough
39:32
Speaker 1: space for me. It's, that also goes to unrealistic expectations. Yeah.
39:39
Speaker 1: You know, I, I don't, if things get tough, I'll,
39:42
Speaker 1: I'll leave.
39:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
39:43
Speaker 1: You know, um, you know, I, I heard you talk
39:48
Speaker 1: about fake intimacy once. Do you know what I'm talking about?
39:52
Speaker 1: What were you talking about about it? I resonated with that.
39:56
Speaker 2: So every child longs for connection. Yeah. Just built. But
40:01
Speaker 2: if you can't get it, you try to connect with dad,
40:03
Speaker 2: but he's always too busy. Mom's always depressed or angry.
40:07
Speaker 2: You can't connect. So you assume it's my fault. I
40:11
Speaker 2: must be something wrong with me, but I'm still driven
40:14
Speaker 2: for connection, but I don't want deep genuine connection now
40:19
Speaker 2: because that's always led to rejection. So let's try bar
40:23
Speaker 2: room intimacy. Let's try fake intimacy. Let's just have fun
40:27
Speaker 2: all the time and sports.
40:29
Speaker 1: Pervert. Yes. Yeah. Pornography, that sort of thing. Yeah.
40:33
Speaker 2: Because it gives the feelings of connection without the true intimacy.
40:38
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:39
Speaker 2: But it doesn't satisfy.
40:40
Speaker 1: No.
40:41
Speaker 2: And it sets up addiction. And that's where most people
40:46
Speaker 2: end up. sadly straying into that fake intimacy world.
40:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, do you think it's safe to say that
40:54
Speaker 1: complex trauma makes having a healthy relationship like, it's got
41:04
Speaker 1: to have a huge effect, yeah?
41:05
Speaker 2: Yes, very much.
41:07
Speaker 1: Impossible even?
41:08
Speaker 2: No. Makes it almost impossible for a healthy relationship.
41:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:14
Speaker 2: So everybody that I deal with, as long as they're single,
41:21
Speaker 2: they don't think they need to work on their trauma because, yeah,
41:24
Speaker 2: just me, I'm surviving. As soon as they get in
41:27
Speaker 2: a relationship, then they start damaging the other person. Then
41:30
Speaker 2: they have kids, they're damaging their kids. And all of
41:32
Speaker 2: a sudden they go, I got to start working on
41:35
Speaker 2: my crap. But then they go, okay, I'll just change this.
41:39
Speaker 2: I'll change this. But it's not working. Why is it
41:42
Speaker 2: not fixing the relationship? And it's because You're trying to
41:45
Speaker 2: fix the symptoms. You're not dealing with the root issues,
41:49
Speaker 2: that deep shame, that deep lack of trust, that deep
41:53
Speaker 2: fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment. And as long
41:57
Speaker 2: as those are still there, they're going to keep getting
42:02
Speaker 2: in the way of true healthy relationships. And so a
42:06
Speaker 2: lot of people, as long as the relationship's going along smoothly,
42:10
Speaker 2: it looks pretty good. But as soon as there's the
42:13
Speaker 2: slightest thing that triggers their fear of abandonment or triggers
42:16
Speaker 2: their shame, big explosion. They go back to old behaviors.
42:21
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, they're in fight, flight, or freeze mode.
42:24
Speaker 2: They're lashing out. They're running away. And that's when all
42:28
Speaker 2: the damage happens. And after a while, there's so much
42:32
Speaker 2: baggage from all the damage that you just can't repair it. Yeah, yeah.
42:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, personally, like I would– yeah, I've had problems.
42:40
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly problems with not cheating in relationships. I've
42:46
Speaker 1: always– I think I've cheated in every relationship I've ever
42:49
Speaker 1: been in, sadly. Let me think. Oh, like would have
42:59
Speaker 1: problems with sex and stuff, but if the person was
43:03
Speaker 1: going to leave me, then I could have– it was
43:06
Speaker 1: like my body would then entertain it, you know, but otherwise, uh, like, um, yeah.
43:14
Speaker 1: Or if it was with a stranger, it was easier,
43:16
Speaker 1: you know, uh, not a complete stranger, like somebody at
43:19
Speaker 1: a mall or something, but like, um, you know, with somebody,
43:22
Speaker 1: you know, a bar sex or somebody who's like that,
43:25
Speaker 1: or just somebody you met at a service area or whatever, but, um, yeah,
43:30
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Uh, Oh, staying with somebody. Man,
43:38
Speaker 1: this is– staying with somebody because I didn't want them
43:48
Speaker 1: to have somebody else who would really care about them. Yes.
43:52
Speaker 1: Or that could care about them better than me.
43:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:55
Speaker 1: Even though I knew I was doing a bad job.
43:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:58
Speaker 1: Man, that makes me feel– I'm not proud of that.
44:03
Speaker 1: And I didn't know– but a lot of it, man,
44:05
Speaker 1: I didn't know until later. I just couldn't see it. Uh,
44:08
Speaker 1: but yeah, stuff like that. Um, Oh, thinking that my partner,
44:14
Speaker 1: a woman, if my girlfriend or whatever, if they did
44:18
Speaker 1: something wrong, then it was me doing it wrong. Yes. Like, um, yeah.
44:23
Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
44:23
Speaker 1: If they, if they're a little off or something or they, uh,
44:28
Speaker 1: do things a way that people don't like, that's a
44:29
Speaker 1: reflection of me. Totally.
44:31
Speaker 2: Yes.
44:31
Speaker 1: You know, those are some symptoms that I had, you know.
44:35
Speaker 2: Can I, Talk scientifically again.
44:37
Speaker 1: A hundred percent. You can talk in any, ask anyone
44:40
Speaker 1: about it.
44:41
Speaker 2: So to me, it's so interesting, especially living in the West,
44:46
Speaker 2: is so much of our dating and attraction in relationships
44:51
Speaker 2: is really what we've come to understand is the limbic
44:54
Speaker 2: or the emotion part of the brain and the chemical oxytocin,
44:58
Speaker 2: which is what makes me feel in love. And so
45:01
Speaker 2: that's released through when I see somebody pretty, when I
45:05
Speaker 2: touch them, when I kiss them, when I have sex,
45:07
Speaker 2: all of that releases those feel-good chemicals. And I feel
45:11
Speaker 2: in love. I feel it's going to last forever. I
45:13
Speaker 2: feel intimacy, though it's not true intimacy. It's the feeling
45:17
Speaker 2: of intimacy. So that's a great starting place for a relationship.
45:23
Speaker 2: The problem is you can't sustain that just through sex,
45:27
Speaker 2: just because you still got life. You got to communicate.
45:30
Speaker 2: You got to learn to accept and love and respect
45:35
Speaker 2: each other. But if you've never been taught how to
45:38
Speaker 2: do that, you don't. So you just keep trying to
45:40
Speaker 2: have sex, keep trying to have fun, but the feelings
45:44
Speaker 2: are dying. It's not releasing the same oxytocin. And so
45:48
Speaker 2: the relationship is designed to start there, but it's designed
45:51
Speaker 2: then to move to the cortex, which is the thinking
45:54
Speaker 2: part of the brain, which then releases oxygen. All of
45:58
Speaker 2: the serotonin that comes through safety, through connection, through acceptance.
46:03
Speaker 1: Wow.
46:04
Speaker 2: And that's through building a life, working through issues, resolving problems,
46:10
Speaker 2: really respecting, trusting each other. That takes a lot of work.
46:14
Speaker 2: That takes time. And most people from complex trauma are
46:18
Speaker 2: scared to death to go there.
46:19
Speaker 1: So the sex is just, or that intimate connection up
46:22
Speaker 1: top is just like a fuse kind of.
46:24
Speaker 2: Exactly.
46:24
Speaker 1: And then the other part is like a fire.
46:26
Speaker 2: Exactly.
46:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, man. I just, yeah.
46:29
Speaker 2: But most try it with complex trauma. I just think
46:32
Speaker 2: I can live up here on the fuse.
46:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a fuse monkey. I'm up here, yeah.
46:37
Speaker 2: And that's going to be great. Just never satisfied.
46:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, never. And then it's, yeah, I just.
46:43
Speaker 2: And then the second piece to me is what comes
46:46
Speaker 2: out of complex trauma is Are you familiar with the
46:48
Speaker 2: term gaslighting?
46:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what does it mean? I always hear people
46:51
Speaker 1: say it, but I'm just too lazy to look it up,
46:55
Speaker 1: I think.
46:55
Speaker 2: So if dad is angry, instead of him being honest
47:01
Speaker 2: and saying, I'm sorry, I'm having a bad day. You
47:04
Speaker 2: didn't do anything wrong. It's all on me. He goes,
47:08
Speaker 2: you're a bad kid. It's all your fault. That's gaslighting.
47:11
Speaker 2: He's twisting it and making you believe a lie. And
47:16
Speaker 2: so what happens in complex trauma is constant gaslighting of
47:19
Speaker 2: a child so that whenever any parent or authority is
47:23
Speaker 2: having a bad emotion, the child is made to feel
47:27
Speaker 2: it's their responsibility to fix that emotion. No, it's not.
47:32
Speaker 2: They can't fix their dad's anger. Only dad can fix
47:35
Speaker 2: his own anger, but they're made to feel if they
47:38
Speaker 2: just did more chores, if they weren't making noise, if
47:41
Speaker 2: they were more agreeable, more obedient, then dad would never
47:45
Speaker 2: get angry. But dad always gets angry, but you keep
47:48
Speaker 2: believing the gaslighting lie.
47:50
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:51
Speaker 2: So now when you go into relationships, soon as your
47:53
Speaker 2: spouse is a little bit sad, what did I do wrong?
47:56
Speaker 2: Maybe I should do something here. Maybe I should do this.
47:59
Speaker 2: You still take responsibility for everybody else's emotions. And that
48:04
Speaker 2: sets up relationships to be codependent. Yeah.
48:08
Speaker 1: I think I, There was a point I was like, well,
48:12
Speaker 1: I have to be perfect. Yes. You know, I was like,
48:15
Speaker 1: if I'm perfect, right, if I'm absolutely perfect somehow, then
48:19
Speaker 1: there's no way I won't get what I need as
48:24
Speaker 1: a child. Because even in the laws of the universe,
48:28
Speaker 1: that wouldn't make any, you know, it would feel like
48:30
Speaker 1: that wouldn't make any sense.
48:32
Speaker 2: So can I ask you a question? So what happens
48:35
Speaker 2: often with a child is they go to that perfectionism
48:38
Speaker 2: where I set the bar too high for myself that
48:41
Speaker 2: I can be perfect. I will have no limitations. I'll
48:44
Speaker 2: do everything perfectly the first time. But it also can
48:48
Speaker 2: create a fantasy world where I'm going to be a superman.
48:51
Speaker 2: I'm going to do everything wonderfully. I'm going to save everybody.
48:57
Speaker 2: So did you have that fantasy thinking begin to develop
49:02
Speaker 2: in you?
49:03
Speaker 1: Not that much. I think when this podcast started getting
49:06
Speaker 1: busier and you have a lot of young guys who
49:08
Speaker 1: had a lot of the same thoughts and feelings that
49:11
Speaker 1: I did about stuff would reach out as if I
49:13
Speaker 1: knew more than them really. When I really didn't, I
49:16
Speaker 1: was just kind of, um, just have been kind of
49:20
Speaker 1: a late bloomer, you know, and just learning, uh, in
49:25
Speaker 1: front of people, I guess, because I've talked about more
49:27
Speaker 1: stuff like that over the years. Um, and then that
49:31
Speaker 1: for a little bit gave me a fear of like, well,
49:34
Speaker 1: do I have some greater responsibility? Like is God thinking like,
49:38
Speaker 1: I need you to help. Like there was moments of
49:42
Speaker 1: not grandeur, but questions of like, I could easily see
49:46
Speaker 1: that thing like start to get in, you know, of like, oh,
49:51
Speaker 1: then I must know everything, you know. It didn't sprout
49:55
Speaker 1: in me, but I could, there were times where I, shit,
49:58
Speaker 1: even when that started to happen, I was like, I
50:03
Speaker 1: would be a failure at that. So there was, thankfully
50:07
Speaker 1: at that point, there was some of that Ferris wheel happening.
50:09
Speaker 1: That brought me right back down to the shit carnival,
50:12
Speaker 1: you know? Um, but there was some, that, that some
50:15
Speaker 1: of that kind of nothing, none of it as a child.
50:17
Speaker 1: Like if I'm perfect, I just set out on my own.
50:20
Speaker 1: I remember thinking I'm never going to let anything define
50:23
Speaker 1: me in this whole world except for me. Right. You never.
50:27
Speaker 1: And I mean, even when I say it now, I
50:29
Speaker 1: can feel like, I mean, I can fucking feel it
50:34
Speaker 1: in my, like, you know, one is ever going to
50:38
Speaker 1: define me again.
50:39
Speaker 2: Right.
50:40
Speaker 1: You are not gonna have a say in how I feel.
50:43
Speaker 1: And it comes, dude, it comes from a place that's
50:45
Speaker 1: so deep in me, I can't even, I can barely,
50:51
Speaker 1: sometimes I can, it's like the weather changes just enough
50:55
Speaker 1: where I can see into the window of it a
50:58
Speaker 1: little bit. But the climate, whatever it is, the climate
51:02
Speaker 1: adjusts quick again.
51:03
Speaker 2: Can I speak to that just for a minute? Because
51:06
Speaker 2: part of my concern has been A very popular term
51:10
Speaker 2: these days is ODD or oppositional defiance disorder. So kids
51:14
Speaker 2: are getting diagnosed with ODD all the time. And it's
51:17
Speaker 2: really been pathologized like it's a bad thing. You're a
51:20
Speaker 2: bad kid because you've got ODD. And what you're describing
51:24
Speaker 2: in yourself to me is ODD. I'm never going to
51:26
Speaker 2: let anybody define me again. That's oppositional defiance. But really
51:32
Speaker 2: it starts out in complex trauma. And it's a healthy thing.
51:37
Speaker 2: And it's a child who's, nobody's accepting me. Everybody's trying
51:41
Speaker 2: to make me something I'm not. Everybody's trying to control me. Everybody's,
51:47
Speaker 2: I got this rigid rules, all of this harsh discipline,
51:52
Speaker 2: et cetera. That's not right. That's wrong. That's hurting me.
51:58
Speaker 2: I need to be able to have some freedom. I
52:00
Speaker 2: need to be able to be myself. And so we
52:03
Speaker 2: rebel against what's unhealthy. Mm-hmm. But people don't see that
52:08
Speaker 2: we're doing something healthy. They just say, you're rebelling. And
52:12
Speaker 2: they pathologize it.
52:14
Speaker 1: Oh, I see.
52:16
Speaker 2: Right.
52:16
Speaker 1: If you're a rebel when you're young, they're like, oh,
52:18
Speaker 1: look at this rebel.
52:19
Speaker 2: Exactly.
52:19
Speaker 1: But for you, you're trying to figure it out for yourself.
52:22
Speaker 2: You're trying to fix what's wrong.
52:24
Speaker 1: Right.
52:24
Speaker 2: And make it right. You're not trying to be a rebel.
52:27
Speaker 2: You're trying to develop something loving and healthy. But what
52:32
Speaker 2: happens for most kids is then they gain it. That
52:35
Speaker 2: just gets into their soul. And now, even if somebody
52:39
Speaker 2: wants what's best for me, I'm not going to let
52:42
Speaker 2: anybody define me. So now I'm going to rebel against
52:45
Speaker 2: good and bad. And that then becomes a maladaptation.
52:52
Speaker 1: Right.
52:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
52:53
Speaker 1: A lot of those old safety mechanisms, a lot of
52:55
Speaker 1: those old survival techniques become tips over the other side
52:59
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Speaker 1: rated five stars by over 300,000 people. Yeah, and a
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Speaker 1: lot of this, I don't want to get into that
57:00
Speaker 1: self-pity place again. A lot of it is just looking.
57:02
Speaker 1: I'm trying to look at some of this stuff with
57:05
Speaker 1: you because it's interesting and it's amazing how it still
57:10
Speaker 1: comes to the surface because a lot of it I
57:13
Speaker 1: haven't resolved. I think I've taking care of some of
57:17
Speaker 1: the stuff and I have a much better understanding of
57:21
Speaker 1: a lot of it now. Um, and I'm able to see,
57:24
Speaker 1: I'm able to see what's going on a lot of times,
57:27
Speaker 1: but some of it is still, uh, unresolved for me.
57:31
Speaker 2: So let's go into the, uh, just kind of the
57:35
Speaker 2: very basics of healing. Yeah.
57:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think that's good. Yeah. I don't want
57:39
Speaker 1: to be like, we've had some of the experience we've
57:41
Speaker 1: had some of that. So yeah, I want to get
57:43
Speaker 1: into a part of, yeah. How does, one, locate their
57:47
Speaker 1: complex trauma so they can begin to heal it if
57:50
Speaker 1: it's possible. Yeah.
57:53
Speaker 2: And that's the huge challenge is that so much of
57:57
Speaker 2: it exists in the subconscious mind. So we're not even
58:00
Speaker 2: aware of all of these mechanisms and kind of subconscious
58:04
Speaker 2: brain templates and programs that have been operating our life.
58:08
Speaker 2: It's almost like we're in autopilot. And because it's been
58:11
Speaker 2: normal for us all our life, we don't see it
58:13
Speaker 2: as being abnormal. or unhealthy. And so that's where taking
58:19
Speaker 2: a program or watching videos where you begin to grow
58:23
Speaker 2: in self-awareness, to understand trauma, to understand the different characteristics
58:29
Speaker 2: of trauma. So we talk about 60 different characteristics, the
58:33
Speaker 2: patterns in your emotions, the patterns in your thinking, the
58:36
Speaker 2: patterns in your behavior, in your relationships. And once you
58:40
Speaker 2: begin to to grow in self-awareness, then you go, oh, wow, okay,
58:44
Speaker 2: now I'm starting to see it. But then that goes, okay,
58:47
Speaker 2: now I know what unhealthy is. Now I can define it.
58:52
Speaker 2: What's healthy? I don't know what healthy. And that's where
58:55
Speaker 2: we talk about healing from complex trauma requires reparenting. You
58:58
Speaker 2: need surrogate family that can begin to model healthy for you,
59:03
Speaker 2: teach you healthy, and begin to help you learn healthy.
59:08
Speaker 2: But that requires the third piece and that is connection.
59:13
Speaker 2: And that's the thing I fear the most. If people
59:15
Speaker 2: get to really know me, they're going to reject me.
59:19
Speaker 2: But what I've been craving all my life is true
59:21
Speaker 2: connection with safe people. And so trauma requires safe people
59:26
Speaker 2: to heal and It's got an academic element of self-awareness,
59:29
Speaker 2: but it's got a connection reparenting element as well.
59:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so hard to notice. Yeah, I would just
59:43
Speaker 1: think I was bad at relationships for a long time.
59:45
Speaker 1: I would just think that, you know, and I was.
59:49
Speaker 1: I mean, I would just think that I was a
59:51
Speaker 1: philandering man, you know, kind of deal, gypsy, whatever it is.
59:58
Speaker 1: I don't even know what they call it. Gypsy boy
1:00:00
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then, um, but yeah, I was like, I,
1:00:06
Speaker 1: and I still don't know how I'm going to do it.
1:00:08
Speaker 1: Like if I think about like being in a marriage,
1:00:10
Speaker 1: a longterm, I don't know how I'll could do it. Right.
1:00:14
Speaker 1: You know? I mean, I know for a while I
1:00:16
Speaker 1: resorted to pornography for a while and, uh, but that
1:00:21
Speaker 1: lost it. So, you know, I just learned through other
1:00:24
Speaker 1: 12 step, just how negative it is for you. And so,
1:00:28
Speaker 1: that's not a solution. I mean, I still date and everything,
1:00:30
Speaker 1: but I don't know if I, when I think about that,
1:00:35
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, that feels harrowing. But it used to
1:00:38
Speaker 1: be like, if I saw a family that was functioning,
1:00:42
Speaker 1: I was like, what the fuck is this? This is
1:00:44
Speaker 1: fucking the dumbest thing I've ever seen. That's where I
1:00:47
Speaker 1: started at. And that's a real thing. And to even
1:00:52
Speaker 1: get to the point now where I can even think
1:00:54
Speaker 1: about being in a marriage or something, for me, that's
1:00:57
Speaker 1: It's been a while, you know, it's been a ride,
1:01:00
Speaker 1: you know.
1:01:01
Speaker 2: And that to me is a common defense mechanism of
1:01:04
Speaker 2: people with lots of trauma and shame is I need
1:01:08
Speaker 2: to disparage anything that's healthy. Yeah. What the fuck are
1:01:12
Speaker 2: you doing? Who are you? Who do you think you are?
1:01:14
Speaker 2: And it's like I got to look down on everybody
1:01:18
Speaker 2: to feel better about myself, even if I know I
1:01:22
Speaker 2: should be aspiring to what they've got.
1:01:24
Speaker 1: Man. And it hurts people so much when they're behaving
1:01:28
Speaker 1: that way too. That's the toughest part is, man, I
1:01:31
Speaker 1: would be. Well, you hurt yourself. Yeah.
1:01:33
Speaker 2: So to me, what I say with complex trauma is
1:01:37
Speaker 2: others wounded me when I was a child. I developed maladaptations.
1:01:42
Speaker 2: The longer I hang on to them, the more I
1:01:44
Speaker 2: just wound myself. I don't need anybody to wound me
1:01:46
Speaker 2: anymore because I just do a great job myself.
1:01:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:01:50
Speaker 2: And I keep the fairest will going.
1:01:52
Speaker 1: You have a program, React, right? Is that it? REACT?
1:01:57
Speaker 2: So it stands for Recovery Education for Addiction and Complex Trauma. Okay.
1:02:02
Speaker 2: So what we found was that 97% of addicts have
1:02:08
Speaker 2: complex trauma.
1:02:10
Speaker 1: I see. So a lot of this is addiction-focused.
1:02:13
Speaker 2: Originally. And so I started in the addiction world, and
1:02:17
Speaker 2: we were the only treatment center in Canada that saw
1:02:20
Speaker 2: addiction as a symptom of deeper problems. And the lady
1:02:23
Speaker 2: that trained me said, Tim— Your job is to find
1:02:27
Speaker 2: those problems. And complex trauma wasn't even on the radar then.
1:02:32
Speaker 2: It was called adult children of alcoholics.
1:02:35
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, ACA or whatever?
1:02:36
Speaker 2: Adult children of dysfunction. Then it became known as developmental
1:02:40
Speaker 2: trauma disorder. Then complex trauma came in on the radar.
1:02:47
Speaker 2: But basically what it's saying is that We always see
1:02:50
Speaker 2: addiction as a problem, but to an addict, it was
1:02:53
Speaker 2: the solution to their problems. And so until we begin
1:02:57
Speaker 2: to realize what problem are they trying to solve by
1:02:59
Speaker 2: turning to drugs and alcohol, that deep loneliness, the deep pain,
1:03:04
Speaker 2: the deep emptiness, that deep longing to feel connected, all
1:03:09
Speaker 2: of those drugs seem to solve that for them. And
1:03:13
Speaker 2: so we can't really help people with addiction by just
1:03:16
Speaker 2: working on the symptoms. We got to get to that
1:03:18
Speaker 2: root issue. So I was in part of Canada where
1:03:25
Speaker 2: all the treatment centers were talking about trauma and we
1:03:29
Speaker 2: got to be trauma informed. And so I asked them like,
1:03:32
Speaker 2: is anybody willing to change their program? And none of
1:03:34
Speaker 2: them were. And I had started, some addicts asked me
1:03:39
Speaker 2: to start a Friday night thing where I'd started teaching
1:03:42
Speaker 2: this stuff. So that's where these videos started. So I
1:03:44
Speaker 2: started 17 years ago teaching around what I was learning. Um,
1:03:51
Speaker 2: and started with 50 addicts coming out and it grew
1:03:54
Speaker 2: and grew and grew.
1:03:55
Speaker 1: Um. Yeah. Your channel's fascinating, man. Yeah.
1:03:58
Speaker 2: And so what came out of that was when there
1:04:02
Speaker 2: were like 10 treatment centers, nobody would change their program. Wow.
1:04:07
Speaker 2: Though they all said they needed to start dealing with
1:04:10
Speaker 2: the trauma. So I said, well, I guess I, I
1:04:13
Speaker 2: got to start. And I didn't want to start a
1:04:15
Speaker 2: treatment center, but I did. So REACT started as a
1:04:19
Speaker 2: treatment center for addiction and complex trauma. And it spread
1:04:24
Speaker 2: to three different locations in Canada. But then COVID hit.
1:04:29
Speaker 2: And so we put it online. And then once people heard,
1:04:34
Speaker 2: and we called it Lyft, just to give it a
1:04:35
Speaker 2: different name because it was online. And once people heard
1:04:39
Speaker 2: about it, now we have people from 30 different, over
1:04:42
Speaker 2: 30 different countries that are.
1:04:43
Speaker 1: So that was a blessing, huh?
1:04:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so now like. thousands are taking lift and it's,
1:04:50
Speaker 2: it's much more intense. It's a 15 week, um, program,
1:04:55
Speaker 2: but you get, you get a deep dive into understanding
1:04:59
Speaker 2: trauma and then learning what a healthy life looks like
1:05:02
Speaker 2: and connecting with a group of people in the journey. Wow.
1:05:07
Speaker 1: That's incredible, man.
1:05:09
Speaker 2: So in the days when treatment centers just basically worked
1:05:14
Speaker 2: on symptoms, so Relapse warning signs, triggers, people, places, and things. Halt,
1:05:21
Speaker 2: all of the hungry, angry, lonely, tired. All of those
1:05:24
Speaker 2: different things. What they saw was their success rate was
1:05:29
Speaker 2: less than 10%. Once we started React and we've kept statistics,
1:05:35
Speaker 2: our success rate is over 50%. Let's go.
1:05:38
Speaker 1: Tim, that's great.
1:05:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're dealing with helping people deal with that
1:05:42
Speaker 2: core stuff that's been the issue.
1:05:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, one of the reasons that I loved being
1:05:47
Speaker 1: in AA, I didn't even know sometimes if I was
1:05:49
Speaker 1: an alcoholic, right? I still question the alcohol part. I
1:05:51
Speaker 1: don't know. But I know that I would sit in
1:05:54
Speaker 1: meetings and people would get to share how they felt.
1:05:57
Speaker 1: And I never got to do that.
1:05:58
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:05:59
Speaker 1: You know, like I never, no one ever asked me
1:06:03
Speaker 1: how I fucking felt. You know, it was just like,
1:06:05
Speaker 1: if I had a feeling, whatever it was, I didn't
1:06:08
Speaker 1: even probably know what it was for years. I probably
1:06:10
Speaker 1: thought I had indigestion in my brain.
1:06:12
Speaker 2: You know, like who knows? Exactly.
1:06:15
Speaker 1: If I had a fee, I just, I had to
1:06:17
Speaker 1: figure it out myself.
1:06:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:06:19
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, it just, so when I got
1:06:24
Speaker 1: into the rooms and people could share how they felt
1:06:28
Speaker 1: and nobody could say anything, there's no crosstalk allowed. So
1:06:30
Speaker 1: somebody got to share how they felt and it just
1:06:32
Speaker 1: got to sit there. And man, I didn't know how
1:06:37
Speaker 1: much of my life, my whole life I'd needed, not
1:06:40
Speaker 1: even to maybe say something, but to even be in
1:06:42
Speaker 1: the environment of that. Yeah. To have an idea or
1:06:45
Speaker 1: a feeling or thought be spoken into the world and
1:06:50
Speaker 1: have it not completely rejected, you know? Because sometimes I
1:06:54
Speaker 1: felt like I, yeah, I don't know. I got to
1:06:57
Speaker 1: be careful sometimes not to always take things back to
1:07:00
Speaker 1: how I feel because my feelings sometimes, it's like a secret.
1:07:07
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, when somebody puts a dollar on
1:07:09
Speaker 1: a string, I'll go get that dollar, right? To see
1:07:12
Speaker 1: how I feel about something. But they'll pull me back
1:07:15
Speaker 1: into all that old shame.
1:07:17
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:07:17
Speaker 1: So I have to be careful of that. So what
1:07:22
Speaker 1: are some of the mechanisms you guys use in REACT?
1:07:26
Speaker 1: What are some of the things that help people get
1:07:27
Speaker 1: to those core issues?
1:07:29
Speaker 2: So it's divided into two phases. So part of what
1:07:33
Speaker 2: you realize with trauma is healing trauma means reprocessing it.
1:07:40
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean just going into the pain and sitting
1:07:43
Speaker 2: in the pain as if there's benefit in just feeling pain.
1:07:46
Speaker 2: It means I'm going now with tools so that I
1:07:50
Speaker 2: can learn from it, so that I can heal it,
1:07:52
Speaker 2: so that I can grow through it. That's reprocessing it.
1:07:56
Speaker 2: But there's a risk in taking people to reprocess it
1:08:00
Speaker 2: because you are opening a can of worms. It is
1:08:03
Speaker 2: going to take them to some pain and trigger them.
1:08:06
Speaker 2: And so... They need what we call agency. They need
1:08:09
Speaker 2: a certain amount of tools before they ever get to
1:08:13
Speaker 2: the trauma or else the trauma is going to overwhelm them.
1:08:15
Speaker 1: I see. So you guys work on those tools.
1:08:17
Speaker 2: So phase one is self-awareness, basic tools, emotional regulation, what
1:08:23
Speaker 2: to do if you're triggered, building a safe community for
1:08:28
Speaker 2: people so that they can share emotions and not have
1:08:31
Speaker 2: anybody judge them where people hold space for them. So
1:08:35
Speaker 2: that's phase one. Then phase two, we start digging into shame.
1:08:38
Speaker 2: We dig into anger. We dig into emotions. We dig
1:08:42
Speaker 2: into boundaries. We dig into grief and loss. And so
1:08:46
Speaker 2: we start getting into the kind of the main areas
1:08:50
Speaker 2: of trauma and really help people begin to heal. So
1:08:53
Speaker 2: the first half of the week is really digging deep
1:08:56
Speaker 2: into it. And then the second half is practical tools
1:08:59
Speaker 2: and what this healthy look.
1:09:00
Speaker 1: Like shame is such a huge magnet huh huge how
1:09:05
Speaker 1: does that how does shame start is that a fair
1:09:09
Speaker 1: question about shame what's.
1:09:10
Speaker 2: It i think it's it starts with the parent-child relationship
1:09:16
Speaker 2: not being right right.
1:09:19
Speaker 1: Is shame originally a positive thing? Is there a certain
1:09:22
Speaker 1: value to a little bit of shame? What is a
1:09:24
Speaker 1: little bit of shame called?
1:09:26
Speaker 2: So some people have tried to make a distinction around
1:09:29
Speaker 2: healthy shame versus toxic shame.
1:09:31
Speaker 1: Right, okay.
1:09:32
Speaker 2: But to me, healthy shame is actually guilt.
1:09:36
Speaker 1: Okay.
1:09:37
Speaker 2: So guilt is if I do something that violates love.
1:09:40
Speaker 2: I tell a lie, I hit somebody, I cheat on them.
1:09:43
Speaker 2: I should feel guilty. Right.
1:09:44
Speaker 1: That's natural.
1:09:45
Speaker 2: Because that motivates me to get back to a loving,
1:09:48
Speaker 2: healthy situation. Because as long as I stay in stuff
1:09:52
Speaker 2: that violates love, I'm destroying relationships. I'm making a worse
1:09:55
Speaker 2: life for myself. So guilt is a good thing and
1:09:59
Speaker 2: I can resolve guilt. So it's about what I do
1:10:02
Speaker 2: that violates love. Shame is about who I am. It's
1:10:05
Speaker 2: nothing about what I do. Wow.
1:10:08
Speaker 1: So that's huge to notate those two things. Like, It
1:10:11
Speaker 1: can be okay to feel some guilt about things. It's important.
1:10:14
Speaker 1: That's me getting a sign like, hey, man, this is
1:10:17
Speaker 1: almost like a U-turn sign. It's like a good road sign, really.
1:10:22
Speaker 1: Even though it hurts some, you need that because it
1:10:25
Speaker 1: helps you recognize that you're going against love. You're doing
1:10:29
Speaker 1: something against love. But then shame is unhealthy.
1:10:35
Speaker 2: And I can do nothing about it. So shame is
1:10:37
Speaker 2: about who I am that I'm not good enough.
1:10:39
Speaker 1: Right. Shame. I then attach whatever I did immediately in
1:10:42
Speaker 1: that feeling.
1:10:42
Speaker 2: And that's where the two then feed each other. So
1:10:46
Speaker 2: soon as I do something wrong, right. That proves my shame.
1:10:50
Speaker 1: Right.
1:10:50
Speaker 2: That I'm useless.
1:10:52
Speaker 1: And that goes back to that child, that child doing
1:10:56
Speaker 1: something wrong. Something's wrong in his world, in her world.
1:11:00
Speaker 1: And they, they, they don't know how to solve it
1:11:03
Speaker 1: because they're a child. So the, and the only person
1:11:05
Speaker 1: in their world is them. So if something's wrong in
1:11:07
Speaker 1: their world, or they're not getting what they need, or
1:11:10
Speaker 1: their needs met, then of course it must be their fault.
1:11:13
Speaker 1: And that's where shame builds.
1:11:14
Speaker 2: Exactly. So that's where we say that a key part
1:11:17
Speaker 2: of complex trauma is false guilt. So you're made to
1:11:21
Speaker 2: feel guilty, though you've done nothing wrong, which then feeds shame.
1:11:26
Speaker 2: So dad says, I'm mad because you're a terrible kid. Well, no,
1:11:30
Speaker 2: that's not why dad's mad or I drink because you're
1:11:33
Speaker 2: a terrible kid.
1:11:34
Speaker 1: Dad's mad because he's a Lions fan.
1:11:36
Speaker 2: Exactly. And so it's, you're now feeling I did something wrong,
1:11:42
Speaker 2: therefore I am wrong. Right.
1:11:45
Speaker 1: Right.
1:11:46
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man. And so to help people heal, they got
1:11:51
Speaker 2: to deal with legitimate guilt and they can fix that.
1:11:55
Speaker 2: They got to correct all the lies that led to
1:11:57
Speaker 2: false guilt. So every time that Somebody's impatient with them.
1:12:01
Speaker 2: They go, what am I doing wrong? You're not doing
1:12:03
Speaker 2: anything wrong. That's the other person's problem. Or somebody's upset
1:12:07
Speaker 2: with them because they said no. No, you set a
1:12:10
Speaker 2: good boundary. You shouldn't apologize for that, but they feel guilty.
1:12:15
Speaker 2: Or they relax for a few minutes. I'm lazy. No,
1:12:18
Speaker 2: you're not. You're relaxing. So you got false guilt from
1:12:22
Speaker 2: lie after lie after lie. So you got to reprogram that.
1:12:25
Speaker 2: Then you got shame that I'm therefore not good enough.
1:12:28
Speaker 2: which is all based on lies, and that's all gotta
1:12:31
Speaker 2: be reprogrammed, and that takes a ton of work.
1:12:33
Speaker 1: Does it?
1:12:34
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:12:35
Speaker 1: What does some of that work look like if you even?
1:12:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say shame to me is the biggest
1:12:41
Speaker 2: healing journey that comes out of complex trauma, and it
1:12:43
Speaker 2: takes the longest, and it takes years. Wow. Because there's
1:12:47
Speaker 2: so many thousands of subtle lies that people develop that
1:12:52
Speaker 2: they don't even realize. Yeah. And the problem is, They
1:12:56
Speaker 2: get triggered easily. And then all of a sudden they're
1:12:58
Speaker 2: spiraling downhill that I'm a piece of shit and they
1:13:01
Speaker 2: don't know why. But something's triggered an old lie that
1:13:06
Speaker 2: proves that I'm useless. And so there's a big journey
1:13:10
Speaker 2: in self-awareness and beginning to understand the lies that I
1:13:13
Speaker 2: believe that are below the surface, that are subconscious. Beginning
1:13:18
Speaker 2: to understand the things that trigger that. Begin to understand
1:13:20
Speaker 2: the patterns that take place once I'm triggered and where
1:13:23
Speaker 2: I spiral to and stopping those patterns. That's the work.
1:13:28
Speaker 2: And so if I can give one other piece of teaching.
1:13:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:13:32
Speaker 2: Okay. So it's so key with complex trauma to understand
1:13:36
Speaker 2: the two parts of the brain that are kind of
1:13:39
Speaker 2: the main things that motivate our behavior. So the limbic system,
1:13:43
Speaker 2: which is the emotion center, that's the child's brain. That
1:13:46
Speaker 2: develops first. Yes. Then the cortex that keeps growing till
1:13:51
Speaker 2: we're 35-ish. the thinking, the executive function that gets called,
1:13:56
Speaker 2: that processes information. The key thing about the limbic brain,
1:14:01
Speaker 2: the child brain is its instant gratification focus. So a child,
1:14:07
Speaker 2: do you want to do your chores or do you
1:14:08
Speaker 2: want to sit here and watch TV? Well, whatever makes
1:14:11
Speaker 2: me feel good.
1:14:12
Speaker 1: Right.
1:14:13
Speaker 2: So that determines what I want to do. And then
1:14:17
Speaker 2: Whether I want to do something, I don't feel like it.
1:14:21
Speaker 2: I don't feel like doing that. Or I want a
1:14:23
Speaker 2: new puppy. I feel like feeding the puppy until I
1:14:26
Speaker 2: don't feel like feeding the puppy. So emotions guide my
1:14:30
Speaker 2: behavior and everything is instant gratification focused.
1:14:35
Speaker 1: Wow. And a lot of that, if you had trauma
1:14:37
Speaker 1: as a child, then you're still, even that can be
1:14:40
Speaker 1: a pattern that you still continue. Because yeah, that's a
1:14:43
Speaker 1: lot of addicts.
1:14:43
Speaker 2: So the key with that is that when fear is triggered,
1:14:47
Speaker 2: that's limbic brain. So if you're in complex trauma, you're
1:14:50
Speaker 2: in constant fear. So you're constantly in your limbic brain.
1:14:54
Speaker 2: So your cortex doesn't develop properly. So an adult or
1:14:58
Speaker 2: a teenager, they're going through gradually switching to their cortex
1:15:02
Speaker 2: and learning to think stuff through. Complex trauma, you're still
1:15:06
Speaker 2: in your limbic brain, still thinking only of instant gratification.
1:15:09
Speaker 2: What do I feel like? Everything is about emotions. even
1:15:13
Speaker 2: though you're not aware of your emotions. And so a
1:15:16
Speaker 2: huge part of what happens with shame when it's triggered
1:15:20
Speaker 2: is I could be living as an adult today out
1:15:23
Speaker 2: of my cortex, making good decisions, healthy decisions. When my
1:15:26
Speaker 2: shame gets triggered, it triggers my limbic brain again. And
1:15:30
Speaker 2: I go back to a child. And I think like
1:15:32
Speaker 2: a child and I believe the lies of the child.
1:15:36
Speaker 2: And so what you realize is the battles in your
1:15:39
Speaker 2: brain between your cortex and your limbic brain, they believe
1:15:43
Speaker 2: two different things.
1:15:43
Speaker 1: Wow.
1:15:44
Speaker 2: Depends on what gets triggered.
1:15:46
Speaker 1: Wow. It's almost like you have a heaven and hell
1:15:48
Speaker 1: right there kind of.
1:15:49
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:15:50
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
1:15:50
Speaker 2: And so that's where people with shame, they can be
1:15:53
Speaker 2: doing wonderful, great in relationships and their shame gets triggered.
1:15:57
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden they're destroying everybody, calling their
1:15:59
Speaker 2: kids terrible names, calling their partner terrible names. Yeah. And
1:16:03
Speaker 2: it's like, what just happened there? Well, you went to
1:16:06
Speaker 2: your limbic brain and you acted out of that shame lie.
1:16:09
Speaker 2: That's when the damage gets done.
1:16:12
Speaker 1: Those triggers, huh? Those things, it's wild. You had to
1:16:16
Speaker 1: go back to that. Yeah.
1:16:18
Speaker 2: So you can, you can imagine though, how long that
1:16:21
Speaker 2: would take to heal. Cause when that trigger hits, like
1:16:24
Speaker 2: it hits with an intensity of a locomotive, um, Because
1:16:28
Speaker 2: it brings with it cortisol. It brings with it all
1:16:31
Speaker 2: the chemicals. All the drugs, yeah. And how do you
1:16:34
Speaker 2: stop that? Like, the train's out of the station here, buddy. Oh, yeah.
1:16:37
Speaker 1: If somebody pulls up with a train full of drugs, dude.
1:16:40
Speaker 2: It's gone.
1:16:41
Speaker 1: I'm getting on to it. Exactly. I'm just going to
1:16:42
Speaker 1: tell you that right now, and I'll probably sit in
1:16:44
Speaker 1: business class. But, yeah, my brother sometimes would say, trying
1:16:52
Speaker 1: to locate that shame and stuff, it was like taking
1:16:55
Speaker 1: pennies out of a bathtub. Yes. That's what he talks
1:16:58
Speaker 1: about it like sometimes.
1:16:59
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:17:00
Speaker 1: Some days you get a couple and some days you just,
1:17:04
Speaker 1: you don't even know you're in it. Yeah.
1:17:07
Speaker 2: So as a person grows in healing, so let's say
1:17:09
Speaker 2: you would get triggered and you start spiraling, but you've
1:17:14
Speaker 2: got enough self-awareness, you'd catch yourself. Right. And you, I
1:17:16
Speaker 2: know what's going on here. Then you ground yourself, you
1:17:20
Speaker 2: regulate your emotions and you get back to your cortex
1:17:23
Speaker 2: and you go, hey, I'm believing lies there. I'm not.
1:17:26
Speaker 2: that useless person. Right. And I don't have to do that.
1:17:30
Speaker 2: And you get, and so what you find is all
1:17:32
Speaker 2: of a sudden that spiral just stopped. So instead of
1:17:36
Speaker 2: being in it for four days, you're now only in
1:17:38
Speaker 2: it for 15 minutes and you caught yourself. Now there's
1:17:42
Speaker 2: going to be a bit of a hangover effect as
1:17:44
Speaker 2: you kind of keep working through emotions with it. But
1:17:47
Speaker 2: within a day, you're back to being in a pretty
1:17:49
Speaker 2: good place and you've grown a little bit. And then
1:17:54
Speaker 2: because of that, you probably won't get triggered as intensely
1:17:57
Speaker 2: in that area again because you've grown. So that next
1:18:00
Speaker 2: time something happens, the trigger won't be intense and it
1:18:03
Speaker 2: won't be as frequent. And so over time, you're growing
1:18:07
Speaker 2: with greater infrequency and less intensity until you don't get
1:18:13
Speaker 2: triggered there anymore. But that can take a few years.
1:18:17
Speaker 1: But it can happen.
1:18:18
Speaker 2: It can happen. Wow.
1:18:19
Speaker 1: It's really possible.
1:18:20
Speaker 2: It is.
1:18:20
Speaker 1: Man. Yeah, do you get a lot of people who
1:18:26
Speaker 1: feel like they're at their wits' end? What are things
1:18:29
Speaker 1: that you're seeing people doing outside of drugs, patterns that
1:18:35
Speaker 1: I would love to, if it's okay to hear about
1:18:36
Speaker 1: some of those, because I would love for people to
1:18:40
Speaker 1: know that these types of things are repairable. Yeah.
1:18:43
Speaker 2: I would say some of the main ones that I
1:18:46
Speaker 2: would see right now are mental health issues like major depression,
1:18:52
Speaker 2: anxiety issues that just make life unlivable, really, and are
1:18:57
Speaker 2: really getting in the way of relationships, family, stuff like that.
1:19:02
Speaker 2: Secondly is anger issues, just the flare-ups and the outbursts.
1:19:07
Speaker 1: That's what I have.
1:19:09
Speaker 2: And the damage that it does, that just brings them
1:19:12
Speaker 2: to a desperation point that I got to get help
1:19:14
Speaker 2: or I'm going to lose everything. Then with younger people,
1:19:19
Speaker 2: there's this greater and greater kind of self-harm, suicidal ideation,
1:19:27
Speaker 2: deep in their thinking that's going on, eating disorder stuff
1:19:31
Speaker 2: that is slowly getting them to a point where they go,
1:19:36
Speaker 2: I think I got a problem. So that's big. But
1:19:40
Speaker 2: I think maybe the biggest one right now is the
1:19:43
Speaker 2: number of people burning out. They just are like working 60,
1:19:48
Speaker 2: 80 hour weeks and they're getting to a point where
1:19:51
Speaker 2: they're just can't do this anymore. What's going on with
1:19:56
Speaker 2: my life? But I think to me, the biggest one
1:20:00
Speaker 2: that probably gets people is relationships. Just, especially when they
1:20:06
Speaker 2: have kids.
1:20:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:20:09
Speaker 2: I can't, I gotta be a better dad than my
1:20:12
Speaker 2: dad was. And right now I'm, though I said I'd
1:20:15
Speaker 2: never be like my dad, I'm becoming like my dad.
1:20:19
Speaker 1: I know. Man, that's gotta be tough, huh?
1:20:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's just a wake up call for them
1:20:25
Speaker 2: that rocks their world, but that's what they need.
1:20:30
Speaker 1: And what did they, so that's one of the biggest
1:20:31
Speaker 1: pressures you see with people in just that having to
1:20:34
Speaker 1: be better than their parents or is it? Like, what
1:20:36
Speaker 1: do you mean relationships with kids? Things just start to
1:20:39
Speaker 1: get tougher or they fall apart? Yeah.
1:20:41
Speaker 2: So the, you get, um, their kids start rebelling or
1:20:45
Speaker 2: their kids are getting into drugs or their kids are
1:20:49
Speaker 2: cutting and they're going like, uh, I'm failing as a parent. Why?
1:20:53
Speaker 2: What's what? Then they start to think about it and
1:20:57
Speaker 2: they go, yeah, okay, I get it. Um, I came
1:21:01
Speaker 2: from crappy upbringing and I'm passing it on and they,
1:21:05
Speaker 2: I think what they realize is complex trauma tends to
1:21:09
Speaker 2: be generational. Really? If I don't deal with it, I
1:21:12
Speaker 2: pass on what I've learned.
1:21:13
Speaker 1: Oh, of course.
1:21:15
Speaker 2: And I do it to my kids. Because to me,
1:21:18
Speaker 2: that's all I know. Those are the only tools in
1:21:20
Speaker 2: my toolbox. I'm going to use them. And so it
1:21:23
Speaker 2: becomes a generational thing. And when you see what you're
1:21:26
Speaker 2: doing to your kids, you.
1:21:27
Speaker 1: Go, oh, the proof's too real.
1:21:29
Speaker 2: I can't do that to my kids because I know
1:21:31
Speaker 2: what it did to me.
1:21:33
Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, when you have a child, you
1:21:35
Speaker 1: really get to see the proof of the recipe you
1:21:38
Speaker 1: made and then you realize you're the damn ingredient.
1:21:40
Speaker 2: Well, exactly. And the other piece to that is what
1:21:43
Speaker 2: happens for a lot of kids is when you're living
1:21:47
Speaker 2: in constant pain that you can't resolve, you go, how
1:21:49
Speaker 2: do I make the pain go away? Well, I can
1:21:51
Speaker 2: escape or I cannot care. So don't love anybody. Shut
1:21:58
Speaker 2: down love and not care. Just get hard inside. And
1:22:02
Speaker 2: they can do that and pull it off and look
1:22:06
Speaker 2: like they're successful until they have kids. And all of
1:22:10
Speaker 2: a sudden, love takes.
1:22:11
Speaker 1: Love wins, huh?
1:22:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. And all of a sudden, they love again. And
1:22:14
Speaker 2: they go, ah, everything matters now again. And I got
1:22:19
Speaker 2: to do something.
1:22:20
Speaker 1: Wow. That's got to be scary. Yeah. I got two
1:22:24
Speaker 1: things actually, Tim. So is it possible for parents to
1:22:30
Speaker 1: do a good job? I don't want to get just
1:22:31
Speaker 1: stuck in this place where it's like we're just contributing
1:22:34
Speaker 1: to this thing in the world that everybody's damaged and
1:22:36
Speaker 1: that we all need help. That's one question. And just
1:22:40
Speaker 1: so I don't forget, when we say like things are generational,
1:22:44
Speaker 1: do you think that where we are now and like people,
1:22:49
Speaker 1: there's a lot more mental health issues and stuff like that.
1:22:52
Speaker 1: is it because just how we've gone through time and
1:22:57
Speaker 1: this is where we're ending up at as humans? Um,
1:23:01
Speaker 1: is it because, uh, you know, I've had theories that
1:23:04
Speaker 1: maybe it's because we don't have to, uh, have fear
1:23:08
Speaker 1: of the, like a bear in the woods as much anymore.
1:23:11
Speaker 1: So now that fear turns inward. And so we're hunting
1:23:14
Speaker 1: this bear inside of us or this lion in the
1:23:16
Speaker 1: shadows all the time, you know, like, um, but yeah,
1:23:21
Speaker 1: those are, those are my two questions. Like Um, why
1:23:24
Speaker 1: do you think it's kind of coming to a head
1:23:26
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways? And is that just in
1:23:28
Speaker 1: America too? Is it just in like Western culture?
1:23:32
Speaker 2: Um, I would say probably Western culture about 10 to
1:23:35
Speaker 2: 20 years ahead of a lot of cultures and understanding this. Um,
1:23:42
Speaker 2: I think to me what's happened is the research scientifically
1:23:48
Speaker 2: that's been done on the brain and trauma. in the
1:23:52
Speaker 2: last 10 to 15 years has really started to open
1:23:56
Speaker 2: people up to understanding stuff. And what we've begun to
1:24:01
Speaker 2: realize is you can't heal trauma just with knowledge. You
1:24:05
Speaker 2: need safe connection. Oh yeah. You got to have an
1:24:08
Speaker 2: environment where people can talk about it and people have
1:24:11
Speaker 2: started to create those environments and people are starting to talk. Um,
1:24:16
Speaker 2: and so in some ways it's like, it's, it's a
1:24:19
Speaker 2: new phenomena, But it's the way it should always have
1:24:22
Speaker 2: been that we could talk about what's really going on.
1:24:27
Speaker 2: But we're getting there gradually. But I think it's really
1:24:31
Speaker 2: been fueled by a lot of the research that's been
1:24:34
Speaker 2: happening and the growing understanding of how magnificent our brains
1:24:40
Speaker 2: are and how they develop and all of that. And
1:24:42
Speaker 2: how childhood used to be all about like nurture versus nature.
1:24:47
Speaker 2: And it was all about, you know, your genes, et cetera,
1:24:49
Speaker 2: et cetera. Really all the evidence is, no, it's nurture.
1:24:53
Speaker 2: It's what's happening in that child's life that's shaping them
1:24:58
Speaker 2: and forming how they look at the world and think
1:25:00
Speaker 2: about themselves. That's the key thing. And epigenetics is all
1:25:04
Speaker 2: about nurture. And it even determines how our genes fire.
1:25:10
Speaker 2: And so it's really beginning to understand more scientifically what's
1:25:15
Speaker 2: been happening that's been so key. I think when it
1:25:20
Speaker 2: comes to parenting, so a couple of thoughts. The danger
1:25:25
Speaker 2: is every parent wants to be a perfect parent. And
1:25:30
Speaker 2: it's really important to go, it's all about good enough parenting.
1:25:35
Speaker 2: Nobody's a perfect parent, but we can be good enough parents.
1:25:39
Speaker 2: And that means we're going to fail. We can't be
1:25:41
Speaker 2: super good. man to our kids. We have limitations. We
1:25:47
Speaker 2: can't be awake 24-7, but we can be good enough.
1:25:52
Speaker 2: So a child needs parents who are attuned to them
1:25:57
Speaker 2: and who connect. Now you don't connect 24-7 with a child,
1:26:01
Speaker 2: but they need a few minutes a day of just
1:26:04
Speaker 2: really safe connection with the parent to feel, okay, this
1:26:08
Speaker 2: is my rock. This is, I'm secure. Everything's okay with
1:26:12
Speaker 2: the world. And parents can provide that good enough connection.
1:26:16
Speaker 2: And so what's been so important, I think, for parents
1:26:19
Speaker 2: to understand is our whole focus in the West as
1:26:23
Speaker 2: parenting is you got to meet their physical needs, physical needs.
1:26:25
Speaker 2: You know, you got to make sure they get their
1:26:27
Speaker 2: milk at this time and they get to bed and
1:26:29
Speaker 2: they have safety and all. What we're realizing is the
1:26:33
Speaker 2: child's biggest needs are emotional needs. And there's acceptance and
1:26:39
Speaker 2: that attunement and that connection. All of those needs are
1:26:44
Speaker 2: so important for a child if they're going to develop
1:26:49
Speaker 2: normally and healthily. And if parents can learn how to
1:26:53
Speaker 2: meet their emotional needs of their kids, that's what they
1:26:57
Speaker 2: can do. So the other piece to that is, We
1:27:01
Speaker 2: often talk about dysfunctional family and we think the opposite
1:27:05
Speaker 2: of dysfunctional is a perfect family, but there's no such
1:27:09
Speaker 2: thing as a perfect family.
1:27:10
Speaker 1: Right.
1:27:10
Speaker 2: So the word dis is actually a Greek word that
1:27:13
Speaker 2: means pain. And so it's a family in pain is
1:27:17
Speaker 2: a dysfunctional family. So it's a family that's inflicting pain
1:27:21
Speaker 2: in each other, but is never resolving it. So it's
1:27:23
Speaker 2: a complex trauma family. So the opposite of a dysfunctional
1:27:27
Speaker 2: family is a functional family, which is a family that
1:27:31
Speaker 2: inflicts pain once in a while, but they resolve it.
1:27:35
Speaker 2: And by resolving that pain, then the child isn't traumatized
1:27:39
Speaker 2: because it's getting resolved. Right. Yeah.
1:27:42
Speaker 1: That processing is so huge. I think when I think
1:27:46
Speaker 1: back on my own life, um, and not to just
1:27:48
Speaker 1: talk about my own life, I guess I just want,
1:27:50
Speaker 1: I'm trying to have shared, like just so I can
1:27:52
Speaker 1: try and relate, you know, um, I'm not sitting here
1:27:56
Speaker 1: trying to be like, Oh, my life. But, uh, yeah,
1:28:01
Speaker 1: I would, if somebody had been there to be like, Hey,
1:28:03
Speaker 1: this is what's happening. And this is why it's happening.
1:28:07
Speaker 1: Oh man. Cause otherwise, yeah, I was just trying to
1:28:10
Speaker 1: figure everything out for myself. And, uh, there was never
1:28:14
Speaker 1: just any information. There was no, I felt that's what
1:28:17
Speaker 1: I felt like when I was a kid, I felt
1:28:19
Speaker 1: like I worked at a restaurant, right. That I had
1:28:22
Speaker 1: to work at every day and I never got paid
1:28:26
Speaker 1: and I never knew what was on the menu. And
1:28:28
Speaker 1: I never even knew if we were open or closed.
1:28:31
Speaker 2: You didn't know where the pots and pans were.
1:28:33
Speaker 1: But I had to be there every single day. Yeah.
1:28:35
Speaker 1: And I had to show up to work. That's how
1:28:38
Speaker 1: I felt. And it, yeah, I don't know what that
1:28:44
Speaker 1: means or anything.
1:28:46
Speaker 2: Well, I think for a lot of kids in complex trauma,
1:28:48
Speaker 2: they feel like they're chasing their tail, running in circles
1:28:51
Speaker 2: in a fog. They just know they're supposed to be
1:28:55
Speaker 2: doing something that nobody's showing them what to do. So
1:28:58
Speaker 2: they're running around hoping that they're going to figure it out,
1:29:00
Speaker 2: but they're not sure if they're figuring it out. So
1:29:02
Speaker 2: there's just this constant haze of confusion that's there.
1:29:08
Speaker 1: And so unsafe, man. I remember, I mean, I went
1:29:10
Speaker 1: to bed when I was probably 27, probably. I mean,
1:29:14
Speaker 1: I remember when I would go to bed at night,
1:29:17
Speaker 1: it felt like I was literally clocking in for a
1:29:19
Speaker 1: job as like an orderly at a hospital because I
1:29:22
Speaker 1: knew in a couple hours I was going to have
1:29:23
Speaker 1: to get up and change my sheets and Sometimes I
1:29:26
Speaker 1: wet the bed three or four times a night, to
1:29:27
Speaker 1: be honest.
1:29:28
Speaker 2: And that's very common with complex trauma.
1:29:31
Speaker 1: I would pee around my bed. I thought that something
1:29:34
Speaker 1: was going to come get me. And I'd heard that
1:29:36
Speaker 1: like animals will pee and prevent other animals from coming.
1:29:39
Speaker 2: Mark the territory.
1:29:40
Speaker 1: I mean, when I think back on that, some kid
1:29:43
Speaker 1: doing that, a fucking nine-year-old kid doing that. I mean,
1:29:45
Speaker 1: I was like, the pattern I had to go through
1:29:48
Speaker 1: to look around my room to make sure there was
1:29:50
Speaker 1: nothing in there was going to get me. It must
1:29:52
Speaker 1: have taken 12 minutes each night to do it all
1:29:54
Speaker 1: the exact same way so that I could then get
1:29:57
Speaker 1: into my bed, man.
1:29:58
Speaker 2: And then we get children that kind of sleep with
1:30:03
Speaker 2: their back against the wall facing the door so that
1:30:08
Speaker 2: they're not going to have anybody behind them and they
1:30:12
Speaker 2: can see anything that comes in. Some even sleep with
1:30:15
Speaker 2: a weapon nearby in case something happens. That's crazy.
1:30:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think of my stuff, my childhood was
1:30:24
Speaker 1: pretty light when I think about what some kids could
1:30:26
Speaker 1: go through. You know, mine was really more neglect. It
1:30:29
Speaker 1: wasn't any abuse, you know. But it was just wandering
1:30:34
Speaker 1: around in a fucking, yeah, at an empty Costco with
1:30:39
Speaker 1: a fucking name tag on, wondering where the manager was,
1:30:42
Speaker 1: you know. Anyway, sorry, sometimes I still have a lot
1:30:46
Speaker 1: of anger about it. It's been hard to process over
1:30:49
Speaker 1: the years.
1:30:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no. But to me, you should. And if
1:30:56
Speaker 2: I can just speak to that. Yeah. Because to me,
1:30:58
Speaker 2: what happens in a lot of complex trauma families is
1:31:01
Speaker 2: anger is seen as bad. You're always punished for anger.
1:31:04
Speaker 2: But when you think about anger, anger is actually designed
1:31:07
Speaker 2: to be something good. If something violates love, so somebody
1:31:12
Speaker 2: lies to me or somebody cheats on me, I should
1:31:14
Speaker 2: get angry. Because what they're doing is going to destroy
1:31:19
Speaker 2: the relationship if they don't fix it. So anger is
1:31:24
Speaker 2: actually a healthy thing that motivates me to act, to say, hey,
1:31:27
Speaker 2: this isn't right. This is wrong. But in complex trauma,
1:31:32
Speaker 2: that gets knocked down, never validated, judged. And so part
1:31:37
Speaker 2: of the healing journey for a lot of people is
1:31:40
Speaker 2: being able to validate their anger. Yeah, I should be
1:31:43
Speaker 2: angry because that was crap. I shouldn't have been neglected
1:31:45
Speaker 2: like that. Now I'm not going to stay there. I'm
1:31:49
Speaker 2: not going to, feed it and turn it into deep bitterness,
1:31:52
Speaker 2: but I need to let that anger be honest if
1:31:56
Speaker 2: I'm going to heal.
1:31:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes as an adult, I feel like I'm healed
1:32:02
Speaker 1: from it sometimes, but I still feel like that kid
1:32:05
Speaker 1: is not happy.
1:32:06
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:32:06
Speaker 1: That's literally what it feels like sometimes. Yeah. Like he
1:32:09
Speaker 1: comes up to the surface of my fucking throat.
1:32:11
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:32:12
Speaker 1: Literally, he'll be just playing in the distance and he'll
1:32:14
Speaker 1: run up and yell out, fuck you.
1:32:15
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:32:16
Speaker 1: Just right out of the, I cannot, it's like.
1:32:18
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:32:19
Speaker 1: And I say, okay, that's where he's at. You know
1:32:22
Speaker 1: what I'm saying? We're going to keep trying to work
1:32:24
Speaker 1: with him. But yeah, I think a lot of my
1:32:27
Speaker 1: anger now is from I have unrealistic expectations of people,
1:32:31
Speaker 1: of myself. I didn't even realize it literally until like
1:32:35
Speaker 1: three or four days ago. Somebody brought it to my attention, man,
1:32:38
Speaker 1: my brother. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've
1:32:41
Speaker 1: had him since I was at my whole life. I've
1:32:44
Speaker 1: had this to-do list that I don't even know. I
1:32:46
Speaker 1: feel like every day. I'm already behind schedule and I
1:32:51
Speaker 1: don't have a schedule. That's what every single, I'm running behind.
1:32:58
Speaker 1: Got to do this. What is it? I don't know.
1:33:01
Speaker 1: But we better get, I got to do it. And
1:33:03
Speaker 1: that's how I am. And nothing, no one can ever
1:33:06
Speaker 1: do anything perfect enough.
1:33:09
Speaker 2: So to tie that in with what you just shared,
1:33:13
Speaker 2: what we found with most people with complex trauma is,
1:33:17
Speaker 2: is what they begin to realize is it's like there's
1:33:20
Speaker 2: a part of them that got left behind that's still
1:33:22
Speaker 2: a child. So some refer to it as like their
1:33:25
Speaker 2: inner child. But the little boy that's still down there,
1:33:29
Speaker 2: and some have a whole bunch of little boys that
1:33:31
Speaker 2: are different ages and different.
1:33:33
Speaker 1: Well, that person is a politician.
1:33:35
Speaker 2: Exactly. But anyways, what they've realized is there's a part
1:33:42
Speaker 2: of them that kind of, hates that little boy and
1:33:44
Speaker 2: wishes he'd shut up and then quit bugging them and
1:33:47
Speaker 2: grow up and all of that. Kind of treats them
1:33:49
Speaker 2: like they were treated and they have to learn to
1:33:52
Speaker 2: love and nurture that little boy. Okay. Because that's part
1:33:55
Speaker 2: of them. And, and just welcome them, make space for them,
1:33:59
Speaker 2: be curious, what's going on? Why are you upset? Like,
1:34:03
Speaker 2: I'm not going to judge you, just help me understand.
1:34:06
Speaker 2: And then help them process through it because nobody helped
1:34:09
Speaker 2: them process through it. And eventually that little boy can heal.
1:34:15
Speaker 2: And so that's a useful tool for a lot of
1:34:17
Speaker 2: people is beginning to go, let's welcome that little boy
1:34:22
Speaker 2: and parent that little boy, even though it's me, but
1:34:27
Speaker 2: it's part of me and it's a part of me
1:34:29
Speaker 2: that got wounded.
1:34:30
Speaker 1: So if somebody's sitting there right now is listening, right?
1:34:33
Speaker 1: And they're like, how would you start to have some
1:34:35
Speaker 1: of that conversation with yourself? And is there a certain
1:34:39
Speaker 1: setting you would kind of do it in? just to
1:34:41
Speaker 1: even try and get us some awareness of that inner child,
1:34:44
Speaker 1: as people say.
1:34:45
Speaker 2: It's different for everybody. And so you got to kind
1:34:51
Speaker 2: of find what works for you. What some people do
1:34:55
Speaker 2: is they can go in their imagination to kind of
1:34:58
Speaker 2: a safe place in their house that they liked as
1:35:00
Speaker 2: a kid or a safe place in the backyard or
1:35:03
Speaker 2: a tree or something in the woods, whatever. And they
1:35:07
Speaker 2: can go there and kind of, picture that little child
1:35:10
Speaker 2: and connect with that little child. Others can do it
1:35:14
Speaker 2: through going through like picture albums, see when they're four
1:35:17
Speaker 2: years old, when they're seven years old and go, oh,
1:35:19
Speaker 2: I remember what I was feeling then and what I
1:35:21
Speaker 2: was thinking. Or the other one is when they get
1:35:25
Speaker 2: triggered and that voice in their head and they go, well, okay, that,
1:35:31
Speaker 2: how old do I feel right now? And they go,
1:35:34
Speaker 2: I feel three, I feel eight. And it's like, okay.
1:35:37
Speaker 2: Let's connect with that part of me. And that's that
1:35:42
Speaker 2: part of your limbic brain that's been triggered, which doesn't
1:35:46
Speaker 2: keep track of time. That's still stuck at that age.
1:35:49
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that's a great point. When that's happening, that
1:35:51
Speaker 1: part of you is showing up.
1:35:52
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:35:53
Speaker 1: So that's, as crazy as it is, it's a great
1:35:55
Speaker 1: time to connect.
1:35:56
Speaker 2: What I say to people is a trigger. Don't get
1:35:59
Speaker 2: down on yourself if you get triggered. Go, a trigger
1:36:02
Speaker 2: is my little boy saying, ouch. Ouch. And be curious
1:36:07
Speaker 2: and go, it's trying to get my attention, saying there's
1:36:10
Speaker 2: a wound here that never has been healed.
1:36:12
Speaker 1: What's going on, buddy?
1:36:13
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:36:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I went to this center for a week.
1:36:16
Speaker 1: It was in Scottsdale. It was about sexual health. Not
1:36:26
Speaker 1: necessarily about actual physical act of sex, but emotional health,
1:36:31
Speaker 1: emotional wellness, all that. And we had to go get
1:36:35
Speaker 1: a doll from a dang baby. Oh, Build-A-Bears. So we
1:36:41
Speaker 1: roll up in Build-A-Bears, dude, a couple. I mean, we
1:36:43
Speaker 1: got out of a white van and went in there.
1:36:45
Speaker 1: So obviously we look like. Politicians, you know? Or perps. Yeah,
1:36:51
Speaker 1: definitely perpetrators. Like one of us definitely a peeping Tom.
1:36:56
Speaker 2: You know? Giving out candy at the back.
1:37:00
Speaker 1: We looked like flashers that had gone on a field trip.
1:37:02
Speaker 1: That's what we looked like. We looked like definitely... And
1:37:04
Speaker 1: then we're in there buying doll... And there's like these other.
1:37:08
Speaker 1: There's other people, like there's kids in there getting... It
1:37:11
Speaker 1: was just like the whole thing was just so bizarre.
1:37:14
Speaker 1: But then... you'd have to sit with this dang doll
1:37:18
Speaker 1: and just talk to, you know, like, and every now
1:37:21
Speaker 1: and then there was some moments of like, you could
1:37:24
Speaker 1: almost feel a doll just be like, hey man, just
1:37:25
Speaker 1: sit here with me for a little bit. You could
1:37:28
Speaker 1: almost feel, it was like a feeling you would get. Like, hey, just,
1:37:33
Speaker 1: just stay with me for a minute. Like, man, if
1:37:36
Speaker 1: I was, when I was a kid, if somebody just
1:37:38
Speaker 1: stayed with me for a minute.
1:37:40
Speaker 2: Made a big difference. Fuck, man.
1:37:42
Speaker 1: I can't even. I mean a minute, you know, it
1:37:47
Speaker 1: just would have had a, it would have made me
1:37:51
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, like somebody wants to be there
1:37:56
Speaker 1: with me. You know, I just never, I can't believe
1:38:01
Speaker 1: I even, you know, I'm not trying to have self pity,
1:38:03
Speaker 1: but I just can't believe that shit, man. And I'm
1:38:07
Speaker 1: fortunate that we had food and stuff on the table.
1:38:09
Speaker 1: I can't imagine in places where kids don't have that
1:38:13
Speaker 1: or don't have a sibling to at least like, come
1:38:15
Speaker 1: in the room and make them smile or something man
1:38:18
Speaker 1: yeah it's heartbreaking it is they should have a program
1:38:22
Speaker 1: when you leave the hospital with your child that there's a,
1:38:24
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying? Like even a basic, like, hey,
1:38:27
Speaker 1: look in your child's eyes. This is how you do this.
1:38:30
Speaker 1: These are four things, you know? Do they have anything
1:38:33
Speaker 1: like that?
1:38:33
Speaker 2: They're starting to. What's her name? She's out of San Francisco.
1:38:41
Speaker 2: She just wrote a book called The Deepest Well.
1:38:44
Speaker 1: Now it's a good book? Yeah.
1:38:46
Speaker 2: And she's been very much involved with ACE, which is
1:38:50
Speaker 2: Adverse Childhood Experiences.
1:38:52
Speaker 1: Is that a test you take? Yeah.
1:38:54
Speaker 2: Oh, I think I took 10 questions or something.
1:38:57
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:38:58
Speaker 2: Yeah. And she was a pediatrician in San Francisco. Nadine
1:39:03
Speaker 2: Burke Harris is her name.
1:39:05
Speaker 1: Okay.
1:39:06
Speaker 2: So she's moved up the ranks in San Francisco, and
1:39:11
Speaker 2: she's started parenting courses for people. So Desmond Tussauds said,
1:39:17
Speaker 2: we got to stop pulling people out of the river.
1:39:20
Speaker 2: We got to go down river and stop them from
1:39:22
Speaker 2: getting pushed in the river. And that's what this is
1:39:25
Speaker 2: all about. We got to start working with parents. So
1:39:28
Speaker 2: we're actually developing a parenting course that we're piloting right now.
1:39:33
Speaker 2: Just because it's great work helping people get healthy in
1:39:39
Speaker 2: their 40s and 50s. But we got to... Help parents
1:39:43
Speaker 2: not pass this on.
1:39:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to fix it and try to help
1:39:46
Speaker 1: at the beginning some. Let me think. And what were
1:39:50
Speaker 1: we just talking about before? Yeah, the ACEs quiz right here.
1:39:56
Speaker 1: This is a fascinating. I took this test in a
1:40:02
Speaker 1: treatment facility and it blew my mind. Let's go back
1:40:06
Speaker 1: just a little bit. I just want to read the top. Okay,
1:40:12
Speaker 1: what to know before you take the quiz. Researchers determined
1:40:14
Speaker 1: that 10 specific traumatic childhood experiences or ACEs could be
1:40:19
Speaker 1: linked to a higher likelihood of health challenges later in
1:40:21
Speaker 1: life and that the likelihood of these negative effects increased
1:40:24
Speaker 1: with the number of ACEs a child experienced. Tim, you
1:40:30
Speaker 1: want to take us in a little further?
1:40:33
Speaker 2: So these were really developed with a focus mainly on abuse,
1:40:42
Speaker 2: And so we still use it because it's very effective,
1:40:46
Speaker 2: but it's that hidden neglect stuff it touches on, but
1:40:50
Speaker 2: it doesn't develop. And so most professionals now use this test,
1:40:55
Speaker 2: but then we add other stuff to help people capture
1:40:59
Speaker 2: some of the neglect stuff. But what basically has come
1:41:04
Speaker 2: out of the ACE test is through years of tracking
1:41:09
Speaker 2: people with it is if You have two ACEs or
1:41:14
Speaker 2: three ACEs. The more ACEs you get, the more your
1:41:17
Speaker 2: chances of depression, mental health issues, the more your chances
1:41:20
Speaker 2: of drug, alcohol addiction, the more your chances of violence
1:41:24
Speaker 2: in the family, like partner abuse, the more your chances
1:41:28
Speaker 2: of suicide attempts. And then greater your chances for heart issues, diabetes,
1:41:36
Speaker 2: health issues. It just messes everything up in your body.
1:41:39
Speaker 1: It's fascinating. It says here the 10 Aces, and we'll
1:41:43
Speaker 1: get to the questions in a second, were defined as
1:41:45
Speaker 1: the following childhood experiences, physical, sexual, or verbal abuse, physical
1:41:50
Speaker 1: or emotional neglect, separation or divorce, a family member with
1:41:53
Speaker 1: mental illness, a family member addicted to drugs or alcohol,
1:41:56
Speaker 1: a family member who is in prison, witnessing a parent
1:41:59
Speaker 1: being abused. It says still there are variables that the
1:42:03
Speaker 1: quiz doesn't account for, including stressors outside of the home.
1:42:07
Speaker 1: as well as the important role positive influences play on
1:42:10
Speaker 1: buffering the effects of trauma. So let's see those questions
1:42:14
Speaker 1: real quick. Did a parent or other adult in the
1:42:19
Speaker 1: household often or very often, A, swear at you, insult you,
1:42:23
Speaker 1: put you down, or humiliate you, or B, act in
1:42:27
Speaker 1: a way that made you afraid that you might be
1:42:28
Speaker 1: physically hurt? Did a parent or other adult in the
1:42:34
Speaker 1: So that's number one. So there's 10 questions here, and
1:42:37
Speaker 1: the more you get right, the odds of countless tougher
1:42:44
Speaker 1: pastures in your life.
1:42:46
Speaker 2: Yes. The consequences, the ramifications just grow.
1:42:50
Speaker 1: Did a parent or other adult in the household often
1:42:52
Speaker 1: or very often push, grab, slap, or throw something at you?
1:42:56
Speaker 1: Or B, ever hit you so hard that you had
1:42:58
Speaker 1: marks or were injured? Did an adult or person at
1:43:01
Speaker 1: least five years older than you ever touch you or
1:43:04
Speaker 1: fondle you, or have you touched their body in a
1:43:07
Speaker 1: sexual way, or B, attempt or actually have oral, anal,
1:43:11
Speaker 1: or vaginal intercourse with you? Four, did you often or
1:43:16
Speaker 1: very often feel that, A, no one in your family
1:43:19
Speaker 1: loved you or thought you were important or special, or B,
1:43:22
Speaker 1: your family didn't look out for each other, feel close
1:43:25
Speaker 1: to each other, or support each other? You want to
1:43:29
Speaker 1: do these, Tim? Yep. Is that okay? Yep.
1:43:34
Speaker 2: Did you often or very often feel that A, you
1:43:37
Speaker 2: didn't have enough to eat, had to wear dirty clothes,
1:43:40
Speaker 2: and had no one to protect you? Or B, your
1:43:43
Speaker 2: parents were too drunk or high to take care of
1:43:45
Speaker 2: you or take you to the doctor if you needed it?
1:43:49
Speaker 2: And number six, were your parents ever separated or divorced?
1:43:53
Speaker 2: And I would just say that lots of research is
1:43:56
Speaker 2: starting to happen around the effects of divorce on children
1:43:59
Speaker 2: because Often we think it doesn't affect them that much
1:44:03
Speaker 2: because they still see both parents, but it does. And
1:44:07
Speaker 2: it's just very subtle, but it's powerful.
1:44:11
Speaker 1: Was your parent caregiver A, often or very often pushed, grabbed, slapped,
1:44:15
Speaker 1: or had something thrown at him or her? Or B, sometimes, often,
1:44:20
Speaker 1: or very often, kick, bitten, hit with a fist, or
1:44:23
Speaker 1: hit with something hard? Or C, ever repeatedly hit over something?
1:44:28
Speaker 1: At least a few minutes or threatened with a gun
1:44:30
Speaker 1: or knife.
1:44:33
Speaker 2: Did you live with anyone who was a problem drinker
1:44:36
Speaker 2: or alcoholic or used street drugs?
1:44:40
Speaker 1: Number nine, was a household member depressed or mentally ill
1:44:42
Speaker 1: or did a household member attempt suicide?
1:44:45
Speaker 2: And 10, did a household member go to prison?
1:44:48
Speaker 1: So those 10 questions right there, the more you answer,
1:44:53
Speaker 1: if you even get three of those. Oh, yeah. Yes.
1:44:56
Speaker 1: Your odds of. Yeah.
1:44:58
Speaker 2: Addiction, I think are above 50%. Yeah.
1:45:03
Speaker 1: And that's unbelievable because I.
1:45:07
Speaker 2: Don't know.
1:45:08
Speaker 1: I don't think I know 10 people that don't have
1:45:10
Speaker 1: at least two of them.
1:45:11
Speaker 2: Exactly. And you notice it's talked about neglect just a
1:45:16
Speaker 2: little bit, but it doesn't go into a workaholic dad,
1:45:19
Speaker 2: narcissistic dad, all the subtle little types of neglect. And that's,
1:45:26
Speaker 2: So we've actually created an ACE test of 65 questions
1:45:30
Speaker 2: that really capture all the nuances of neglect. Interesting.
1:45:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, this, I just remember, I remember in this facility,
1:45:41
Speaker 1: we all went over this, and then people read theirs.
1:45:44
Speaker 1: And half of the class, and some of the people
1:45:45
Speaker 1: in the class were like mayors in their towns and stuff,
1:45:47
Speaker 1: and they had really, some of them had really beaten
1:45:50
Speaker 1: some unforeseeable odds. Yeah. And then it made sense to
1:45:54
Speaker 1: you when you looked back around my high school when
1:45:56
Speaker 1: certain kids are like, oh, yeah, it makes total sense
1:45:59
Speaker 1: why that kid's not alive anymore or why that guy's
1:46:01
Speaker 1: in prison or why that guy's in a rehab facility.
1:46:08
Speaker 1: Pretty wild. Pretty wild. But I don't want to get
1:46:12
Speaker 1: into that downer mentality, but it is just fascinating. There's
1:46:15
Speaker 1: a lot out there.
1:46:16
Speaker 2: And that just supports so much of the research that's
1:46:22
Speaker 2: happening right now just in understanding the effects of childhood
1:46:27
Speaker 2: on a so we're not just blowing hot air here
1:46:30
Speaker 2: this is all well researched and continues to be researched
1:46:35
Speaker 2: in great detail and it's just growing and growing in
1:46:39
Speaker 2: our understanding of this very important topic.
1:46:42
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah that's what i think i was just curious
1:46:44
Speaker 1: about i just want if people are like because here's
1:46:47
Speaker 1: where i found myself i found myself in a place
1:46:49
Speaker 1: for me where i couldn't understand why I wasn't able
1:46:53
Speaker 1: to do certain things, like, especially like with relationships and
1:46:58
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I kept thinking that it would change and, um,
1:47:03
Speaker 1: and it, and it just hasn't, it's gotten better. Things
1:47:05
Speaker 1: have gotten better. I'm a lot more aware. I don't
1:47:07
Speaker 1: make a lot of the same mistakes as I used to.
1:47:10
Speaker 1: I don't get people into situations that I'm leading them
1:47:12
Speaker 1: to believe that there's something that, you know, if there
1:47:16
Speaker 1: isn't something, you know, like, But I still have just
1:47:19
Speaker 1: a severe fear of a lot of it. And as
1:47:24
Speaker 1: you get older, it's like, well, how the heck am
1:47:25
Speaker 1: I ever going to have a family then, you know?
1:47:27
Speaker 1: Will I ever be able to have that or should
1:47:29
Speaker 1: I just, you know, keep to myself more, you know?
1:47:34
Speaker 1: Not in a negative way, but in a positive, you know,
1:47:35
Speaker 1: it's like.
1:47:37
Speaker 2: So I would, and I say this all the time
1:47:40
Speaker 2: to people that come to our program, there is hope,
1:47:44
Speaker 2: but be prepared. It takes a lot of work and
1:47:46
Speaker 2: it's not a, quick fix. This is going to take
1:47:50
Speaker 2: a lot of time because this started in childhood and
1:47:54
Speaker 2: you don't undo that overnight, but there is hope.
1:47:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard you talk on one of your, thanks.
1:48:01
Speaker 1: Thanks for saying that to me and just to anybody
1:48:03
Speaker 1: that's listening, you know, and I believe that. I believe
1:48:07
Speaker 1: that when I go into meetings and you see guys
1:48:09
Speaker 1: that like two years ago were like addicted to prostitutes
1:48:14
Speaker 1: and now they're getting married and they're having children. It's like,
1:48:17
Speaker 1: you see people change their lives. or guys who had
1:48:20
Speaker 1: never even been on a date in two years and
1:48:23
Speaker 1: were just addicted to pornography and didn't even realize they
1:48:25
Speaker 1: were addicted. It was just a pattern of comfort. I
1:48:30
Speaker 1: remember when I found my wiener, dude, when I was probably,
1:48:32
Speaker 1: I don't even know. Once I found something that could
1:48:35
Speaker 1: make me feel good.
1:48:37
Speaker 2: Yep. Self-soothing.
1:48:38
Speaker 1: Self-soothing. Yeah, you could play all the Madden you wanted.
1:48:45
Speaker 1: I was like, I had my own game.
1:48:47
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:48:48
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, dude? And I was two-point
1:48:50
Speaker 1: conversing it all the time, bro. I was doing it.
1:48:52
Speaker 1: It was like, that was unbelievable to me. I would
1:48:56
Speaker 1: bike across town to go look at pornography at my
1:48:58
Speaker 1: buddy's house, going and digging up pornos over there. Man,
1:49:02
Speaker 1: it was just, because it was the first time I
1:49:05
Speaker 1: also had a relationship with a woman, even if it
1:49:07
Speaker 1: was just on a damn page or drawings. We had
1:49:09
Speaker 1: a dude who would draw you some ovaries or something
1:49:11
Speaker 1: for the weekend.
1:49:12
Speaker 2: So can I speak scientifically to that again? Yeah. I
1:49:16
Speaker 2: don't want to go too long here. Okay, cool.
1:49:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sorry. I know I'm just talking about a
1:49:20
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, Tim. I just, sorry. We're doing our best.
1:49:24
Speaker 2: So what we know is when you look at the
1:49:27
Speaker 2: brain chemicals, the brain only is designed to produce positive chemicals.
1:49:33
Speaker 2: So you got dopamine, pleasure chemical. Then you got serotonin.
1:49:37
Speaker 2: That feel good connected, you get ecstasy is part of.
1:49:43
Speaker 2: And then you've got oxytocin. I'm in love chemical. So
1:49:46
Speaker 2: those three chemicals are designed to be produced all the
1:49:50
Speaker 2: time in the brain of a child because they connect
1:49:53
Speaker 2: with a parent. So they feel good. They feel a
1:49:58
Speaker 2: deep joy. They feel a deep contentment. And their needs
1:50:01
Speaker 2: are being met. So connection and the meeting of needs
1:50:04
Speaker 2: causes those chemicals to be released. complex trauma, you're not
1:50:09
Speaker 2: connecting and your needs aren't being met. Zero chemicals. Wow.
1:50:14
Speaker 2: So what's your brain feel? Cortisol, anger, hyper, pain, rebellion,
1:50:22
Speaker 2: all of that is happening. So what do you then find?
1:50:26
Speaker 2: The first thing that gives you comfort. And part of
1:50:30
Speaker 2: what we know is your parents are supposed to Soothe
1:50:35
Speaker 2: you when you get dysregulated, when you have negative emotions,
1:50:38
Speaker 2: but if you can't connect to them, then you're not
1:50:41
Speaker 2: being soothed properly. So you find the first thing that self-soothes.
1:50:47
Speaker 2: And so some people rock.
1:50:49
Speaker 1: We would rock. My brother and I's beds were on
1:50:51
Speaker 1: wheels and in the morning they would be in the
1:50:54
Speaker 1: corner of their other corner of the room.
1:50:56
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:50:57
Speaker 1: We would rock all night like that.
1:50:59
Speaker 2: And so what we know is when you cut, it
1:51:02
Speaker 2: actually releases opioids in the brain. And so you don't
1:51:07
Speaker 2: feel the pain. You feel the relief of the good feeling.
1:51:12
Speaker 1: Wow.
1:51:13
Speaker 2: And so guys find their wiener and all of a
1:51:16
Speaker 2: sudden they get a good chemical in their brain. Well,
1:51:20
Speaker 2: that's better than no chemicals. So let's go back and
1:51:23
Speaker 2: let's get more.
1:51:24
Speaker 1: Serving up that wiener sauce. That day was horrible.
1:51:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:51:27
Speaker 1: But that's crazy. So yeah, it's like, oh, this is
1:51:29
Speaker 1: a good feeling.
1:51:30
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:51:31
Speaker 1: Of course I'm going to do it again and again.
1:51:32
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:51:33
Speaker 1: Why else wouldn't I? The second something triggers me, I
1:51:35
Speaker 1: feel bad. I'm going to make myself feel good. Now
1:51:38
Speaker 1: I have the ability to make myself feel good. That
1:51:40
Speaker 1: was the first time in my life I had the ability,
1:51:42
Speaker 1: any like method, you know, that's why I think it's
1:51:47
Speaker 1: so important to your child just doesn't know how to
1:51:51
Speaker 1: make themselves feel better. So if something is wrong with
1:51:53
Speaker 1: your child, you have to sit and teach them. I'm
1:51:56
Speaker 1: not trying to preach at people, but I wish somebody
1:51:59
Speaker 1: for me had sat and said, Hey, right now you
1:52:01
Speaker 1: feel this way. this is going to have you, you're
1:52:03
Speaker 1: going to be okay. It's everything you're going to get
1:52:05
Speaker 1: to hear. Everything's going to be okay. And I'm going
1:52:07
Speaker 1: to sit here with you while you do it.
1:52:09
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:52:10
Speaker 1: You know? And, um, yeah, man, stuff like that. Just
1:52:13
Speaker 1: so crucial.
1:52:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:52:16
Speaker 1: Um, when it, when it, before you go to him
1:52:18
Speaker 1: and thank you so much, man, really, really appreciate it.
1:52:21
Speaker 1: I really kind of think of this as a service
1:52:22
Speaker 1: call in a way. Um, and just grateful, man. Um,
1:52:27
Speaker 1: so many of your videos, you have the one, it's like, uh,
1:52:31
Speaker 1: you're leaving. Can I, will you take, what is that
1:52:34
Speaker 1: video title?
1:52:35
Speaker 2: It's the codependency one.
1:52:36
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:52:37
Speaker 2: Um, if you leave, can I come with you?
1:52:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:52:41
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
1:52:43
Speaker 1: It's just so like, get out. Can I come with you?
1:52:45
Speaker 1: It's like, that was like, God.
1:52:48
Speaker 2: Um, yeah.
1:52:49
Speaker 1: What, what's kind of is it's this, it's, uh, um,
1:52:55
Speaker 1: complex trauma isn't a one, there's not one fix really. Right. It's, um,
1:53:00
Speaker 1: How do you view the repairing process overall?
1:53:07
Speaker 2: I think it's great to emphasize that there's not just
1:53:09
Speaker 2: one fix because so much of the focus in the
1:53:12
Speaker 2: West has been around, let's just do this one program
1:53:17
Speaker 2: and then you're magically going to be fixed. So we're
1:53:20
Speaker 2: always looking for almost like a magical fix.
1:53:24
Speaker 1: Oh, even with treatment centers. It's like here's a 30-day
1:53:26
Speaker 1: treatment center. What are you going to do on 34th day?
1:53:30
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:53:31
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? That's unbelievable that it's a
1:53:33
Speaker 1: 30 days. It'll help you detox.
1:53:36
Speaker 2: Exactly.
1:53:37
Speaker 1: Anyway, sorry.
1:53:37
Speaker 2: So what we teach our clients is we are intellectual beings,
1:53:41
Speaker 2: we're physical beings, we're emotional beings, we're relational beings, and
1:53:45
Speaker 2: we're spiritual beings. We have to learn to meet all five,
1:53:49
Speaker 2: the needs of all five of those areas if we're
1:53:52
Speaker 2: going to be healthy. And that's what parents were supposed
1:53:55
Speaker 2: to do is meet the needs of all five of
1:53:57
Speaker 2: those areas. But now we got programs that just try
1:54:00
Speaker 2: to do a spiritual only solution. That doesn't work. Others
1:54:04
Speaker 2: try to do just, let's do this one little emotional gimmick. Yeah. No,
1:54:09
Speaker 2: you got to learn.
1:54:10
Speaker 1: Physical. Curl your way to freaking complete freedom.
1:54:14
Speaker 2: And so it's learning. We're bio, psychosocial, spiritual. So we've
1:54:19
Speaker 2: got to learn to meet all those needs and get
1:54:22
Speaker 2: healthy in all those areas. That's the bottom line.
1:54:26
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of work sometimes.
1:54:28
Speaker 2: It's not a magic solution.
1:54:30
Speaker 1: It's hard when people's lives get busy too. I can't
1:54:32
Speaker 1: imagine once people have a family and stuff and a
1:54:35
Speaker 1: father or mother has to leave away from their family
1:54:37
Speaker 1: to go get wellness.
1:54:38
Speaker 2: So if I can ask you, and this is kind
1:54:40
Speaker 2: of almost, I don't know if it's off the record,
1:54:42
Speaker 2: but you can decide what to do with it. So
1:54:46
Speaker 2: we've got a UFC fighter that's approached us about taking
1:54:50
Speaker 2: our program. Boston Red Sox, Detroit Lion, Detroit Tigers, some
1:54:56
Speaker 2: movie stars. But they've all said, we kind of got
1:55:01
Speaker 2: celebrity status and we're not, can't fit a program into
1:55:05
Speaker 2: our schedules. Plus, we're not sure we want to be
1:55:09
Speaker 2: in a group we're going to get adored, kind of.
1:55:11
Speaker 2: Not sure we're going to be able to share freely.
1:55:15
Speaker 2: So we've been giving thought to kind of what do
1:55:17
Speaker 2: we do to kind of people in your status of
1:55:21
Speaker 2: life that.
1:55:22
Speaker 1: Have some popularity that would make things uncomfortable for them
1:55:25
Speaker 1: or other people maybe?
1:55:26
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:55:26
Speaker 1: Or make the pattern might feel different?
1:55:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then has maybe some restraints around their schedules
1:55:35
Speaker 2: that doesn't allow them to commit for like a 15-week program.
1:55:40
Speaker 2: So we've been giving some thought to just some things
1:55:43
Speaker 2: we can do that might enable celebrity-type people to take
1:55:49
Speaker 2: advantage of the program and still have some connection with people,
1:55:55
Speaker 2: but maybe not the full connection daily. Any thoughts on that?
1:56:01
Speaker 1: I would love to help you navigate it some.
1:56:04
Speaker 2: Because that's where we're at.
1:56:06
Speaker 1: It's so funny you say this, man. I'm just talking
1:56:08
Speaker 1: with a buddy of mine. We just had a group
1:56:11
Speaker 1: last week. trying to maybe build something, you know, or
1:56:16
Speaker 1: just not build something, but yeah, I would love to,
1:56:18
Speaker 1: you know, think about it or I wish there were
1:56:20
Speaker 1: more meetings that some people could go to, you know,
1:56:22
Speaker 1: and what that looks like. Yeah, I'd love to talk
1:56:26
Speaker 1: with you about how I can be a part of
1:56:28
Speaker 1: stuff or if there's some meetings that I can join or,
1:56:33
Speaker 1: you know, I have friends that would like to be
1:56:35
Speaker 1: in meetings. I think sometimes they're maybe afraid to be
1:56:37
Speaker 1: in some meetings or whatever, but I'd love to talk
1:56:40
Speaker 1: about that with you a little bit more.
1:56:41
Speaker 2: Because I would value that.
1:56:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tim, 100%. Because we just.
1:56:45
Speaker 2: See like we're getting more and more requests from celebrities,
1:56:49
Speaker 2: but it's a special niche with special needs. And it's
1:56:52
Speaker 2: like we almost got to custom make something here.
1:56:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:56:56
Speaker 2: That's going to need a lot of wisdom to do it,
1:56:58
Speaker 2: but it's doable.
1:56:59
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's so funny. I thought that if
1:57:03
Speaker 1: I could get everybody in the world to see me.
1:57:06
Speaker 2: Right. That would fix everything.
1:57:11
Speaker 1: That it would make up for whatever. I didn't know
1:57:14
Speaker 1: that's what I needed. But it was like, that's what
1:57:18
Speaker 1: I wanted so much. And I was like, oh, if
1:57:20
Speaker 1: my mother sees that everybody thinks I'm okay, she'll have
1:57:23
Speaker 1: to then see, oh, he's okay. For years, I think
1:57:29
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I was having trouble, I didn't
1:57:31
Speaker 1: even realize this, getting in a relationship, I was still
1:57:33
Speaker 1: in this relationship with my mother.
1:57:34
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
1:57:34
Speaker 1: I was still, literally, I felt like, Somebody's standing on
1:57:38
Speaker 1: a dock waiting for their mom to come.
1:57:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. And validate them.
1:57:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:57:46
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:57:48
Speaker 1: You know, just literally just to hold, just to, I
1:57:51
Speaker 1: hear that all the time.
1:57:53
Speaker 2: Really?
1:57:53
Speaker 1: That's unbelievable. Yeah. You know, and I don't mean it
1:57:56
Speaker 1: as a shade to my mother. My mother did it.
1:57:58
Speaker 1: I have a lot of really cool memories. You know, she,
1:58:01
Speaker 1: there was just that part. She didn't even, she didn't
1:58:03
Speaker 1: even know it existed. If you showed it to her
1:58:06
Speaker 1: as a color she wouldn't be able to see it
1:58:09
Speaker 1: you know um what what types of things can people
1:58:15
Speaker 1: notice in their life where they maybe have had complex
1:58:17
Speaker 1: trauma that they didn't realize it's affecting this place is
1:58:21
Speaker 1: there any way we can put some light on that
1:58:22
Speaker 1: or is that too broad of.
1:58:23
Speaker 2: A question Well, I think, again, for many people, workaholic, people-pleasing,
1:58:30
Speaker 2: never able to say no, perfectionism, nothing's ever good enough,
1:58:35
Speaker 2: control freak issues where they have to control everybody and everything,
1:58:41
Speaker 2: or image, always got to look good and try to
1:58:44
Speaker 2: impress people all the time, or just lots of relationship problems, rifts,
1:58:52
Speaker 2: damage being done now. Mental health issues that.
1:58:57
Speaker 1: Damn, that's everybody, Tim.
1:58:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, exactly. And so what we've, we started with
1:59:02
Speaker 2: the React and then the Lyft course, but not everybody
1:59:06
Speaker 2: can do that. So what we've started now is some
1:59:09
Speaker 2: self-study courses that people can take on their own time.
1:59:13
Speaker 2: And then they have an optional group they can go
1:59:15
Speaker 2: to once a month just to kind of share and
1:59:18
Speaker 2: talk about stuff. Oh, cool. Have a one-on-one coach if
1:59:21
Speaker 2: they want to process through stuff. So that's now available.
1:59:27
Speaker 2: And then we are doing some workshops on narcissism, inner
1:59:32
Speaker 2: child stuff, internal family system stuff, shame issues. So we're
1:59:39
Speaker 2: trying to do more available stuff to busy people. So
1:59:47
Speaker 2: can I tell you.
1:59:50
Speaker 2: One of my favorite stories to tell people. There's actually
1:59:54
Speaker 2: a video now on YouTube where a guy's actually built
1:59:59
Speaker 2: a bike that operates backwards. So when you think of
2:00:03
Speaker 2: a bike, you learn to ride a bike at four, five,
2:00:06
Speaker 2: six years old. And at first you got to concentrate
2:00:10
Speaker 2: a lot to change. Get your balance to turn the
2:00:13
Speaker 2: steering wheel.
2:00:14
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Remember how loose, remember how crazy the beginning is?
2:00:17
Speaker 2: And you're falling, but you keep working and concentrating. Oh, yeah.
2:00:22
Speaker 1: You fall. Somebody's dad calls you a G-A-Y every time.
2:00:25
Speaker 1: You're like.
2:00:26
Speaker 2: And then pretty soon you could be talking to your buddies.
2:00:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:00:30
Speaker 2: And you're not even thinking about riding, but you're, it's,
2:00:34
Speaker 2: so it moves from your conscious brain to a subconscious
2:00:37
Speaker 2: program that just operates. Okay.
2:00:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:00:40
Speaker 2: And now you could go without riding a bike for
2:00:42
Speaker 2: 30 years and jump back on and you'd ride it
2:00:46
Speaker 2: without even thinking. You'd just pick it right back up.
2:00:49
Speaker 2: So this guy built a bike where if you turn
2:00:52
Speaker 2: the handlebars to the left, you actually, the wheel goes
2:00:55
Speaker 2: to the right.
2:00:55
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Why did he do it? Was he
2:00:57
Speaker 1: angry at somebody?
2:00:58
Speaker 2: He wanted to test how quickly could you relearn to
2:01:03
Speaker 2: ride a bike.
2:01:04
Speaker 1: Wow.
2:01:05
Speaker 2: You know how long it took? Six months to a year.
2:01:10
Speaker 1: No. Yeah. So you're just saying to relearn things, it
2:01:16
Speaker 1: takes a while. It takes some time.
2:01:19
Speaker 2: Exactly. Especially when you learn it so young.
2:01:22
Speaker 1: And if somebody's just going to therapy, right, what can
2:01:25
Speaker 1: they go talk to? How can they start a conversation
2:01:27
Speaker 1: with their therapist that could help them create more ambiance
2:01:31
Speaker 1: around maybe some of the stuff that may have happened
2:01:33
Speaker 1: and how it affects them now? Yeah.
2:01:35
Speaker 2: So a lot of people go to therapy now because
2:01:37
Speaker 2: of a crisis in the present. They need to be
2:01:41
Speaker 2: able to understand that crisis is probably a symptom of
2:01:43
Speaker 2: something from the past. And so a lot of therapists
2:01:47
Speaker 2: just try to give you practical tools. Well, try this,
2:01:49
Speaker 2: try this, try this. And they're just putting band-aids on
2:01:54
Speaker 2: cuts on the symptoms. If you can get your therapist
2:01:58
Speaker 2: to go like, why am I doing this?
2:02:00
Speaker 1: What?
2:02:01
Speaker 2: What's underneath that's driving that response and begin to look
2:02:07
Speaker 2: at shame, begin to look at fears that are there,
2:02:10
Speaker 2: fears of abandonment, fears of intimacy, fears of rejection, fears
2:02:14
Speaker 2: of failure. All of those can start getting down to
2:02:18
Speaker 2: the core root issues that come out of trauma.
2:02:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes I can ask myself, like, what's going on,
2:02:27
Speaker 1: you know, and try to answer myself, you know. I
2:02:31
Speaker 1: try to legitimately answer myself. Because my first thought would
2:02:34
Speaker 1: be like, oh, nothing, nothing. But then it's like, well,
2:02:39
Speaker 1: sometimes I get a feeling first, and that's a clue.
2:02:43
Speaker 1: A feeling is just like a little bit of a,
2:02:48
Speaker 1: like you saw something, but you don't really know. Sometimes
2:02:51
Speaker 1: if I feel something, I try to feel it more.
2:02:54
Speaker 1: I'm like, how can I feel this more?
2:02:56
Speaker 2: So there's a new.
2:02:59
Speaker 2: Term called compassionate inquiry. And so it's when you get
2:03:03
Speaker 2: a feeling in the past, we'd get that critic, you stupid,
2:03:08
Speaker 2: why are you feeling that way? And we judge ourself
2:03:11
Speaker 2: and get really hard on ourself. And so it says,
2:03:15
Speaker 2: instead of condemning yourself, be curious, compassionate. So you be
2:03:21
Speaker 2: kind to yourself and then go, what's going on here?
2:03:24
Speaker 2: And inquire. And you change the whole way you respond
2:03:29
Speaker 2: to feelings and triggers, which is huge for a lot
2:03:34
Speaker 2: of people.
2:03:35
Speaker 1: And you give yourself some grace, too.
2:03:37
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's the compassion.
2:03:39
Speaker 1: It's like, dude, give yourself some grace, man.
2:03:43
Speaker 2: Quit beating yourself up.
2:03:50
Speaker 1: Give yourself some grace.
2:03:53
Speaker 2: You just.
2:03:55
Speaker 1: It's the least you can do right now. You can
2:03:57
Speaker 1: do it. You know?
2:04:01
Speaker 2: Exactly.
2:04:01
Speaker 1: Just give yourself a little bit of grace. That's one
2:04:03
Speaker 1: thing I've had a tough time with.
2:04:05
Speaker 2: And I would say probably for most of the people
2:04:08
Speaker 2: we work with, self-compassion is the hardest thing for them
2:04:12
Speaker 2: to learn.
2:04:13
Speaker 1: Why is it hard for us to have self-compassion?
2:04:15
Speaker 2: Because shame says, I deserve to beat myself up because
2:04:20
Speaker 2: I'm a loser. And often complex trauma parenting is, the
2:04:25
Speaker 2: way to motivate a child to want to change and
2:04:27
Speaker 2: be better is to beat them up and put them
2:04:30
Speaker 2: down and punish them. And then they're going to want
2:04:32
Speaker 2: to prove you wrong or, but that doesn't work in
2:04:36
Speaker 2: the long run. Eventually you start to believe you are
2:04:39
Speaker 2: a loser and you just give up. Um, but you
2:04:42
Speaker 2: still got all those things in your head that you
2:04:45
Speaker 2: keep putting yourself down. And then for many people, there's
2:04:48
Speaker 2: that justice piece that if I commit the crime, I
2:04:52
Speaker 2: got to do the time. Um, And so I did
2:04:55
Speaker 2: something bad. I'm a bad person. I got to punish
2:04:58
Speaker 2: myself before I can let myself out of prison. And
2:05:03
Speaker 2: so there's that sense of justice that has to be
2:05:06
Speaker 2: served in their mind.
2:05:09
Speaker 1: And even, and so if they're too hard on themselves
2:05:11
Speaker 1: and they're going to be punished themselves for crimes that
2:05:12
Speaker 1: aren't even real.
2:05:13
Speaker 2: And you're in prison forever because you never let yourself out.
2:05:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gosh, the crazy thing is I can't even remember
2:05:19
Speaker 1: some of the ridiculous patterns I used to have inside
2:05:21
Speaker 1: of me. I used to have this belief that I
2:05:24
Speaker 1: had to, I know it sounds silly, but sometimes it
2:05:28
Speaker 1: feels like you swallow on different sides of your mouth.
2:05:30
Speaker 1: I had this thing I had to swallow constantly back
2:05:33
Speaker 1: and forth or the world would be even. And it
2:05:37
Speaker 1: was this constant thing all the time. It was like
2:05:39
Speaker 1: this constant thing. Man, sometimes when I think back on
2:05:44
Speaker 1: some of the crazy stuff or little patterns, I think
2:05:47
Speaker 1: a lot of people have them. Some of it's just being.
2:05:50
Speaker 2: So to me, what you've really shown me this soft
2:05:54
Speaker 2: is this. It shows the child's amazing ability to think
2:05:59
Speaker 2: there's got to be another way to fix this, another
2:06:03
Speaker 2: option available. If I try this, if I try this,
2:06:06
Speaker 2: if I try to, I'll swallow different. And you start
2:06:09
Speaker 2: to believe that if I only do something a little
2:06:12
Speaker 2: bit different, that'll resolve and fix the problem. But pretty
2:06:15
Speaker 2: soon you're rocking in your bed, you're peeing around your bed,
2:06:19
Speaker 2: you're sleeping with your back to the wall, you feel
2:06:23
Speaker 2: you got to control every little element of life but
2:06:27
Speaker 2: it's not fixing anything, but you're still doing it. Yeah.
2:06:32
Speaker 2: But it's the brain just keeps giving one more, let's
2:06:38
Speaker 2: try this.
2:06:39
Speaker 1: Let's try this.
2:06:39
Speaker 2: And let's try this then. And you can keep going
2:06:42
Speaker 2: until you're in your thirties, but eventually you're wearing yourself
2:06:46
Speaker 2: out and you go, it's hopeless. It's not fixing it.
2:06:48
Speaker 1: Man. It took me so long to see that. I'll just,
2:06:51
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah.
2:06:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:06:53
Speaker 1: It's the heart of the sea when you're, it's hard
2:06:55
Speaker 1: to see the water when you're the fish, you know,
2:06:57
Speaker 1: whatever they say, it's hard to drink the water or
2:06:59
Speaker 1: something if you're at the aquarium or whatever. But, um, yeah,
2:07:03
Speaker 1: that was God, man. I wish I had gotten a
2:07:07
Speaker 1: little bit of perspective earlier, but yeah, that's one of
2:07:09
Speaker 1: the toughest parts, man, is just seeing that thing, recognizing that,
2:07:12
Speaker 1: that pattern. I used to think if I was a girl,
2:07:15
Speaker 1: maybe if I was a girl, my mother would love me,
2:07:17
Speaker 1: you know, um, or that I would be loved. I
2:07:20
Speaker 1: don't want to always just pin the tail on my mother. Uh, Yeah,
2:07:24
Speaker 1: just some of that stuff, man. And it's not what
2:07:26
Speaker 1: was me stuff. It's just fascinating what a child can...
2:07:29
Speaker 1: They'll create so many realities.
2:07:32
Speaker 2: And with you, you're always thinking, if I just set
2:07:34
Speaker 2: the bar a bit higher, a bit higher, a bit higher,
2:07:37
Speaker 2: then that'll surely fix everything.
2:07:40
Speaker 1: Oh, if I could get the whole world to see me.
2:07:42
Speaker 1: I don't even know that. If I could get... Then
2:07:45
Speaker 1: my mother would, of course, would have to see me then.
2:07:47
Speaker 2: Exactly.
2:07:47
Speaker 1: How could she miss me?
2:07:49
Speaker 2: Exactly.
2:07:50
Speaker 1: If I could just... Yeah, and those are just operating systems.
2:07:53
Speaker 1: I didn't, and they were running my life. I don't
2:07:55
Speaker 1: even know it.
2:07:56
Speaker 2: We still have clients in their fifties and sixties. So
2:08:00
Speaker 2: they graduate, let's say from our program and, uh, they
2:08:04
Speaker 2: go running and telling their mom, I graduated. Do you
2:08:07
Speaker 2: want to see my diploma?
2:08:09
Speaker 1: Wow.
2:08:10
Speaker 2: Still looking for mom's validation to mom to actually see
2:08:13
Speaker 2: them for the first time in their life. And they
2:08:15
Speaker 2: get their hopes up and mom doesn't, She just finds
2:08:19
Speaker 2: something to criticize.
2:08:20
Speaker 1: Or it's just still the same thing.
2:08:21
Speaker 2: Minimizes it.
2:08:22
Speaker 1: Or she cares, but it's not the way you need it.
2:08:24
Speaker 2: Exactly. And so they just get hurt. But they're in
2:08:27
Speaker 2: their 50s and 60s still chasing mom's validation. Yeah.
2:08:32
Speaker 1: And I was hypersensitive as a child, too. So I
2:08:34
Speaker 1: think that was another thing. Like, I have to always
2:08:37
Speaker 1: say that I was hypersensitive. And I still am, but
2:08:40
Speaker 1: it was like, yeah. So it was.
2:08:42
Speaker 2: And those are the ones that the neglect affects the most.
2:08:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:08:46
Speaker 2: It's a sensitive child.
2:08:47
Speaker 1: That's what I think it was for me probably, you know,
2:08:49
Speaker 1: and my siblings. Yeah, even with relationships. I mean, I
2:08:56
Speaker 1: went through this therapy recently and I was like, yeah,
2:09:00
Speaker 1: I can't be in a relationship because I'm still in there.
2:09:02
Speaker 1: There's a huge part of me still waiting for this
2:09:04
Speaker 1: fucking relationship. The first one I was ever supposed to
2:09:07
Speaker 1: be in. When my first girlfriend broke up with me,
2:09:10
Speaker 1: I said, you can't break up. This came out of
2:09:11
Speaker 1: my mouth, Tim. I said, you can't break up with me.
2:09:13
Speaker 1: You're my mother. Wow. Because I just did. It was
2:09:17
Speaker 1: the first place I'd attached any care. Damn, I sound
2:09:23
Speaker 1: like a crazy person, do I?
2:09:25
Speaker 2: But see, that's so normal. You still are chasing that
2:09:29
Speaker 2: primary connection.
2:09:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:09:32
Speaker 2: And you change the face to a young woman that's
2:09:36
Speaker 2: not your mother, but you're still chasing your mother's.
2:09:39
Speaker 1: Well, she was the first girl that I really loved.
2:09:41
Speaker 1: So I think it just, yeah, just awoke all that stuff.
2:09:43
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:09:44
Speaker 1: And you're, when you love and you can, then you're like, oh,
2:09:46
Speaker 1: this is, it was, yeah, this was supposed to happen
2:09:49
Speaker 1: a long time ago, but now it's happening. And this,
2:09:51
Speaker 1: there's probably a part of you that's like, this was
2:09:53
Speaker 1: supposed to be our mother. I don't know.
2:09:55
Speaker 2: I don't know.
2:09:56
Speaker 1: I can get in all that stuff. And, and also
2:09:58
Speaker 1: some of it is like, the more I look at
2:10:02
Speaker 1: all that old stuff, it's like trying to find a snake,
2:10:04
Speaker 1: that bitch or whatever. It's like, It's like a snake
2:10:07
Speaker 1: bit you and goes off into the, and then you
2:10:09
Speaker 1: chase it for years. Right. And you want to ask
2:10:11
Speaker 1: it why it bit you. It's like, I just got
2:10:15
Speaker 1: to heal it. What about forgiveness? What do you think about,
2:10:20
Speaker 1: how do you help people with that, Tim? How does
2:10:23
Speaker 1: REACT help people with?
2:10:26
Speaker 2: I think it's been a, it's such an important concept,
2:10:30
Speaker 2: but it's been a badly mistaught concept. So a lot
2:10:35
Speaker 2: of people have seen the value of forgiveness. And so
2:10:38
Speaker 2: all of a sudden when a person comes into recovery,
2:10:40
Speaker 2: you need to forgive your mom, you need to forgive.
2:10:43
Speaker 2: I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't forgive until
2:10:46
Speaker 2: you've actually validated how badly they've hurt you, until you've
2:10:50
Speaker 2: got honest about it, until you've grieved it, until you've
2:10:53
Speaker 2: been able to really make space for all the emotions
2:10:56
Speaker 2: around that. Then you're going to get to the point
2:11:00
Speaker 2: where you're, Limbic brain is sorting out all of those
2:11:03
Speaker 2: painful emotions and it can come to a point where
2:11:05
Speaker 2: it can let them go. So forgiveness isn't something you're forcing.
2:11:10
Speaker 2: It's something that's going to naturally happen as you allow
2:11:13
Speaker 2: yourself to process through all the pain and anger connected
2:11:17
Speaker 2: to the wound.
2:11:21
Speaker 1: Man, it's wild. I had this thought that there's like
2:11:27
Speaker 1: this weird thing where it's like, I was, There's part
2:11:31
Speaker 1: of me that's afraid to not be angry at my
2:11:33
Speaker 1: mother because it's the only feeling I've ever had towards her.
2:11:36
Speaker 2: Yes.
2:11:36
Speaker 1: And if I let go of that.
2:11:38
Speaker 2: Very normal.
2:11:38
Speaker 1: Then I won't have any connection to her.
2:11:41
Speaker 2: Exactly.
2:11:42
Speaker 1: As a child.
2:11:42
Speaker 2: Exactly.
2:11:43
Speaker 1: As an adult, I can see my mother differently, you know. And,
2:11:48
Speaker 1: you know, I love my mother and I want her
2:11:50
Speaker 1: to be happy. I don't want her to have to
2:11:52
Speaker 1: work anymore. She doesn't want to, you know. I wish
2:11:55
Speaker 1: she would just stop. Can I ask you a question?
2:11:58
Speaker 1: So a lot of kids like you that had a
2:12:00
Speaker 1: mother that just couldn't connect emotionally, often the only time
2:12:04
Speaker 1: the mother would connect emotionally is when they were bad
2:12:07
Speaker 1: or when they got angry.
2:12:09
Speaker 2: Then mom would jump in, hey, stop that, stop that.
2:12:11
Speaker 2: And they go, a little bit of connection is better
2:12:14
Speaker 2: than no connection.
2:12:15
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. So I'll be bad more.
2:12:18
Speaker 2: Or angry.
2:12:20
Speaker 1: I would find other people's... I found other people's moms.
2:12:24
Speaker 1: The second, like. Surrogates. Dude, I keep going. I went
2:12:27
Speaker 1: to my friend William's house like 20 times a weekend.
2:12:29
Speaker 1: His mom's like, he's not here. I told you every time.
2:12:31
Speaker 2: I don't care.
2:12:32
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you're here. I keep knocking just to
2:12:36
Speaker 1: see her look at me for a second. You know? Yep.
2:12:39
Speaker 1: Just wild, man. The things that you'll, ways, little ways
2:12:42
Speaker 1: you'll survive, little things you'll do. Yeah. It's fascinating.
2:12:46
Speaker 2: The longing for love and nurture.
2:12:48
Speaker 1: Yes. It's a lot of, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. You know,
2:12:51
Speaker 1: getting to be human.
2:12:53
Speaker 2: Yep.
2:12:53
Speaker 1: It's quite a ride. Tim, people can check you out online.
2:12:58
Speaker 1: You have so many great, so many great digestible videos
2:13:04
Speaker 1: on YouTube. So many just well, just really awesome stuff, man.
2:13:09
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah.
2:13:10
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Um, my brother saw you and
2:13:14
Speaker 1: he's like, God, this guy is great. And he introduced
2:13:16
Speaker 1: me to you. And, um, it's been cool because you're
2:13:20
Speaker 1: just saying things in a way that I can just,
2:13:21
Speaker 1: I could hear him. And I, that's the hardest part.
2:13:24
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's so hard for us to hear things.
2:13:26
Speaker 2: Why? Partly for a lot of people because of shame
2:13:31
Speaker 2: is I don't want to stop and look honestly at
2:13:34
Speaker 2: myself because it might be too painful and overwhelming and
2:13:37
Speaker 2: I don't want to go there. So it's, there's so
2:13:41
Speaker 2: many defense layers that you have to get by before
2:13:44
Speaker 2: you're even open to go there. And so a lot
2:13:48
Speaker 2: of my years of kind of learning how to teach
2:13:52
Speaker 2: this stuff is how do I get by that defense layer?
2:13:54
Speaker 2: How do I get by that defense layer? How do
2:13:56
Speaker 2: I make people feel safe to challenge that area of
2:14:01
Speaker 2: their life and not feel that they're bad because they're
2:14:04
Speaker 2: doing that?
2:14:07
Speaker 1: Man, it is quite a Rubik's cube. We're complex, huh? Oh.
2:14:11
Speaker 1: I know.
2:14:12
Speaker 2: What I'd be fascinated by is just kind of what
2:14:14
Speaker 2: response you get.
2:14:16
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:14:16
Speaker 2: Cause I think that's going to tell us a lot
2:14:19
Speaker 2: about what we could do differently, whether we need to
2:14:22
Speaker 2: add some other podcasts with more focused information.
2:14:27
Speaker 1: Specific stuff.
2:14:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
2:14:29
Speaker 1: I'm curious about that too. I think, cause I know
2:14:31
Speaker 1: you have so many, like, you know, there was like
2:14:33
Speaker 1: shame we touched on, which I think was important. I
2:14:35
Speaker 1: know that there's a ton of stuff about guilt, um,
2:14:39
Speaker 1: Just there's so many little universes.
2:14:40
Speaker 2: Codependency. Oh, God.
2:14:42
Speaker 1: I can't even.
2:14:44
Speaker 2: Boundaries.
2:14:47
Speaker 1: Codependency for sure.
2:14:49
Speaker 2: For sure.
2:14:50
Speaker 1: As soon as.
2:14:51
Speaker 2: You get into the relationship stuff, then it's just like
2:14:56
Speaker 2: everybody's ears perk up.
2:14:59
Speaker 1: But I think we touched on a good understanding though, right?
2:15:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:15:04
Speaker 1: Of complex trauma. People can understand maybe that they could
2:15:07
Speaker 1: have some things that they didn't realize, but also that
2:15:10
Speaker 1: you don't have to be a victim. Not everybody has
2:15:11
Speaker 1: to have complex trauma.
2:15:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:15:13
Speaker 1: Um, you could have had just simple trauma. That was
2:15:15
Speaker 1: just one thing or some instances, but you could have
2:15:18
Speaker 1: also had good parenting that was there to help you
2:15:20
Speaker 1: process it or somebody, even if it wasn't a parent
2:15:23
Speaker 1: that could also be there as a fixture to help
2:15:25
Speaker 1: you process.
2:15:26
Speaker 2: Exactly. Um, yeah. And I think your bits of your
2:15:30
Speaker 2: personal story just filled in a lot of that for people. Um,
2:15:34
Speaker 2: And I think, to me, the big picture is everybody
2:15:38
Speaker 2: needs to learn not necessarily all the trauma stuff, but
2:15:44
Speaker 2: what does it mean to be healthy? That's what a
2:15:46
Speaker 2: child is supposed to be learning as they're growing up.
2:15:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:15:50
Speaker 2: And even if you had pretty good parents, we all
2:15:53
Speaker 2: still could learn more about fine-tuning being healthy. And that's
2:15:58
Speaker 2: really what I try to do a lot of is.
2:16:02
Speaker 2: Yes define the trauma in great detail and the ramifications
2:16:06
Speaker 2: but really to define what does healthy look like.
2:16:09
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah and if you never thought about this to
2:16:13
Speaker 1: maybe say oh some of that that could be something
2:16:16
Speaker 1: i should look at more i heard something that made
2:16:18
Speaker 1: me think or feel something that that is good clues
2:16:21
Speaker 1: yeah a lot of time i couldn't get a clue
2:16:23
Speaker 1: until i felt it would have to be a very
2:16:24
Speaker 1: strong feeling and then that would be a clue um
2:16:28
Speaker 1: but yeah i think uh Yeah, it's important, man. It's
2:16:32
Speaker 1: important for people. Yeah, it's important. It's not important to
2:16:37
Speaker 1: sit there and dwell and swim in the shit like
2:16:39
Speaker 1: I'm an otter. I have to remember that. But it's
2:16:44
Speaker 1: important to sit on the side of the bank and
2:16:46
Speaker 1: look at the water, I think, and see what's caused
2:16:50
Speaker 1: some of the ripples and see where there's some waves
2:16:54
Speaker 1: and see where things are clear and nice.
2:16:55
Speaker 2: Yeah. cool man it's been a wonderful experience thank.
2:17:02
Speaker 1: You yeah tim thanks bro i appreciate it dude we
2:17:05
Speaker 1: gotta i gotta get back up there to windsor you've
2:17:09
Speaker 1: been there yeah my tour manager at caesar's or it's
2:17:12
Speaker 1: from there yeah over there at caesar's it was pretty
2:17:15
Speaker 1: good man we had a nice time over there and.
2:17:18
Speaker 2: Uh then did you go across to detroit as well
2:17:21
Speaker 2: nope oh just did the windsor.
2:17:23
Speaker 1: Yeah we did windsor and then we went over there
2:17:24
Speaker 1: to lake uh lake of the uh no uh niagara
2:17:27
Speaker 1: niagara yeah niagara And then we went somewhere else, too.
2:17:32
Speaker 1: I can't remember where it was.
2:17:33
Speaker 2: Toronto's right up in there.
2:17:36
Speaker 1: We had a great time.
2:17:37
Speaker 2: Huh.
2:17:37
Speaker 1: It was beautiful over there. Yeah. Canada's great.
2:17:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:17:41
Speaker 1: We're grateful that you are part of North America. I
2:17:43
Speaker 1: want to let you know that.
2:17:46
Speaker 2: I'm grateful, too.
2:17:47
Speaker 1: There you go.
2:17:49
Speaker 2: All right, template.
2:17:50
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, brother.
2:17:51
Speaker 2: Thank you.
2:17:52
Speaker 1: All right, cheers, brother.
2:18:01
Speaker 2: Cornerstone Oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share
2:18:08
Speaker 2: this peace
2:18:09
Speaker 1: Of mind I found I can feel it in my
2:18:12
Speaker 1: bones