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Is the Rapture actually real? with Michael Rountree · The Becket Cook Show

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  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
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  Speaker 2: You are listening to The Beckett Cook Show with your host,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,
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  Speaker 2: visit his website at beckettcook.com. To help support the podcast,
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  Speaker 2: visit patreon.com slash thebeckettcookshow. Please consider subscribing to the podcast
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  Speaker 2: and leaving a five-star rating.
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  Speaker 3: Hey guys, welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 4: Today, my guest is Pastor Michael Roundtree, and he's written
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  Speaker 4: a book called The World Made Right, Finding Confident Hope
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  Speaker 4: in the Book of Revelation. This is such a good book.
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  Speaker 4: And Michael Roundtree has been on this show before. I've
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  Speaker 4: been on his podcast. He has a podcast called The
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  Speaker 4: Remnant Radio. I highly recommend it. He and two other
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  Speaker 4: guys talk theology, and it's so biblically sound. Michael is
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  Speaker 4: also a pastor in Oklahoma City. And this is going
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  Speaker 4: to be part one of our conversation. Our conversation went
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  Speaker 4: on for a long time. So this first hour is
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  Speaker 4: part one, and then we're going to follow up with
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  Speaker 4: the second hour of part two.
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  Speaker 3: But We get.
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  Speaker 4: Into all kinds of fascinating topics in the book of
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  Speaker 4: Revelation because the book is fascinating. And he goes through
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  Speaker 4: each chapter of the book of Revelation in his book.
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  Speaker 3: And we're going to be talking about all the things.
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  Speaker 3: You know, the 144,000, the Great Tribulation, what about ethnic Israel?
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  Speaker 3: what about the rapture? Is there a rapture? What does
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  Speaker 3: that look like?
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  Speaker 4: We're going to be talking about the Antichrist and the
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  Speaker 4: Mark of the Beast in 666. And we're going to
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  Speaker 4: be talking about Babylon the.
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  Speaker 3: Great, the Millennium. Is there a Millennium? Is it a
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  Speaker 3: literal thousand years? Is it figurative?
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  Speaker 4: We're going to go through all of this. So I
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  Speaker 4: highly recommend you watch both episodes, both parts, because Michael
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  Speaker 4: Rowntree is so, so biblically knowledgeable. And I just love
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  Speaker 4: this book. So watch both parts. But first, a word
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  Speaker 4: from our sponsor.
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  Speaker 3: Welcome, Michael Rowntree.
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  Speaker 1: How's it going?
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  Speaker 3: Good. It's good to have you on. How many times
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  Speaker 3: have you been on my show? I think you were
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  Speaker 3: on once or twice.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe once. Maybe once? You've been on our show, Run
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  Speaker 1: It Radio, once or probably twice? How many times?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think twice.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm glad to have you back on the show.
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  Speaker 2: As I.
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  Speaker 4: Mentioned in the intro, the book, The World Made Right,
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  Speaker 4: is so fascinating. And I'm so glad you wrote this.
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  Speaker 4: And it's a page-turner, as I say.
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  Speaker 3: So tell me why.
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  Speaker 3: In the world would you even want to tackle revelation?
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  Speaker 3: Why did you write this?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's a book about the book of revelation
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  Speaker 1: and it walks through every chapter of revelation, not in
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  Speaker 1: this like verse by verse commentary way, but just helping
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  Speaker 1: people get the broad sweep of it. And, uh, well,
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  Speaker 1: so there's a story behind it. I, I mean, I,
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  Speaker 1: I preached the book back in 2020 and, which was
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  Speaker 1: a famous, infamous year for, well, the world, right? And
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  Speaker 1: I started it the week before COVID hit. And people
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  Speaker 1: didn't know COVID was going to hit. I mean, we
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  Speaker 1: heard rumblings of like, it seemed like something's going on
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  Speaker 1: in China, but nobody knew it was going to do
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  Speaker 1: what it did. And so I started preaching the week
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  Speaker 1: before COVID hit and people were already just interested. And
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's revelation, but then when COVID hit, they
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  Speaker 1: were super interested because it was like, ah, is it.
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  Speaker 3: The other world? The time is near. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so, and you know, it was also politically and
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  Speaker 1: the riots and everything that was going on at that time,
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  Speaker 1: it felt totalizing. And you know, every time you thought
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  Speaker 1: it was like, okay, I think maybe we're through it.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there'd be some news article like, murder Hornets
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  Speaker 1: are landing in such a, and we're like murder Hornets.
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  Speaker 1: Of course they were just sensationalized. I don't know if
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  Speaker 1: that was really ever a thing, but that's, that was
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  Speaker 1: the buzz. Uh, no pun intended anyway. So my, my
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  Speaker 1: church really like it was, I've been pastoring there for
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  Speaker 1: 17 years and that was the sermon series that touched
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  Speaker 1: them more than any other. Not only did it help
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  Speaker 1: clarify what revelation means, but also I think helped people
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  Speaker 1: find hope. And for me, I wasn't coming in as
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  Speaker 1: this end times expert. I was settling a lot of my,
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  Speaker 1: like I had a default interpretation of the end times.
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  Speaker 1: We call that eschatology in theological spaces. So I had
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  Speaker 1: a position on it, but it wasn't like this deeply
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  Speaker 1: researched kind of thing. I mean, I had studied it
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  Speaker 1: a little bit, but like I'd never walked verse by
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  Speaker 1: verse through Revelation. The fact that I didn't have like,
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  Speaker 1: I guess this intense end times perspective going in when
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  Speaker 1: you're the one teaching it, you're like, I can really
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  Speaker 1: got to figure this out. So I've read a million
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  Speaker 1: books about it. And I was just floored by how
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  Speaker 1: different revelation is. Like once you really study it, then
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  Speaker 1: what a lot of us have been taught, we're taught
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  Speaker 1: to essentially fear the book. And it feels like people
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  Speaker 1: land on one, one of two sides. They either obsess
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  Speaker 1: about it or they're terrified of it. And the ones
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  Speaker 1: who obsess about it just make everyone scared. And, then
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  Speaker 1: those scared people don't ever want to read the book.
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  Speaker 1: And even the title of the book, it's The World
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  Speaker 1: Made Right. And I could walk you through chapter by
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  Speaker 1: chapter and show this is a book of hope, not fear.
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  Speaker 1: This is a book of joy, of confidence. It's just
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  Speaker 1: on a daily basis, the book of Revelation inspires me.
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  Speaker 1: It's become my favorite book of the Bible. And part
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  Speaker 1: of that is not just the hope that it offers,
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  Speaker 1: but also Just the way that it's written, John never
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  Speaker 1: quotes the Old Testament a single time. But in 400 verses,
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  Speaker 1: he alludes to over 500 times. Some say, I've read 512.
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  Speaker 1: Some say up to 800 allusions to the Old Testament.
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  Speaker 1: It kind of depends on how you count them. And
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of like, why would he do that? If
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  Speaker 1: you read the book of Matthew, it's like, as it
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  Speaker 1: was written, as it was written. It directly, explicitly quotes
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  Speaker 1: the Old Testament. but John will just allude to it,
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  Speaker 1: use words, echoes, images from various chapters. And he does
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  Speaker 1: it more than once a verse on average in the book.
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  Speaker 1: What's he doing? Well, he's showing that this book is
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  Speaker 1: the fulfillment. It's the climax of what all the Old
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  Speaker 1: Testament saints are waiting for. Even the New Testament saints
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  Speaker 1: now are waiting for. It's the climax of prophecy. That's
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  Speaker 1: a term coined by a scholar named Richard Bauckham. And
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  Speaker 1: he talks about this very thing. He He says, this
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  Speaker 1: isn't just like John was so saturated in the Old Testament,
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  Speaker 1: just kind of came out. This was a deliberate strategy
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  Speaker 1: because he's showing how in this final book of the Bible,
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  Speaker 1: what we're seeing is how every hope, every longing, every
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  Speaker 1: ache is completely fulfilled in that book. All the passages
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  Speaker 1: of scripture are pointing there to the final consummation. So
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  Speaker 1: it's just a shame that so many of us are
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  Speaker 1: terrified of the book and that's the way.
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  Speaker 4: I've never been terrified by it i love revelation gives
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  Speaker 4: me so much comfort i'm like oh gosh i can't
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  Speaker 4: wait um.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah oh well and to be fair there are some
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  Speaker 1: terrifying images you know uh like demon armies revelation eight
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  Speaker 1: and nine you've got beasts one's coming from an abyss
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  Speaker 1: one's coming up out of the sea so you have
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  Speaker 1: all these monsters in my book i i say it
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  Speaker 1: reads some in some parts it reads like a children's
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  Speaker 1: pop-up book from hell It's like, whoa, whoa, like certain
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  Speaker 1: stories I wouldn't necessarily want to read to children. But
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  Speaker 1: part of that is just knowing what we're up against.
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  Speaker 1: There is a real battle that's taking place. But the
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  Speaker 1: bigger theme is not that like, hey, there's this big
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  Speaker 1: battle and we're all going to die. That's not really
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  Speaker 1: the theme. The theme is, yeah, we do have some
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  Speaker 1: powerful forces coming against us. The world, the devil, his minions, Babylon,
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  Speaker 1: we can talk about all those things. We do have
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  Speaker 1: some powerful forces fighting against us, but the devil's opposition
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  Speaker 1: is greater because he has to face the Holy Trinity.
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  Speaker 1: And that's how the book begins is from the father
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  Speaker 1: and son and spirit. We receive this revelation.
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  Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this short break. Okay.
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  Speaker 4: So, I mean, this is a very basic question, but
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  Speaker 4: what you say this, you talk about this in the book,
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  Speaker 4: what does the word revelation mean?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. The word revelation. I mean, It essentially means, so
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  Speaker 1: it's the Greek word apokalypsis, and it could be translated revelation.
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  Speaker 1: It's commonly stated by scholars to mean unveiling. You can
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  Speaker 1: think of it as something like a pulling back the curtain.
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  Speaker 1: And so there's a pulling back of the curtain. And revelation,
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  Speaker 1: there's really two senses, because Revelation 1.1, it says, it
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  Speaker 1: begins with the revelation of Jesus Christ, which can go...
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  Speaker 1: two directions, and I would say it actually means both
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  Speaker 1: of these. The first is the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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  Speaker 1: That is the revelation that Jesus gives us about how
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  Speaker 1: the end of the age will play out, the revelation
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  Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ. But revelation of Jesus Christ can also
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  Speaker 1: mean the revelation literally of him, of him in glory.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the things I write in my book
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  Speaker 1: is that if if the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and
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  Speaker 1: John give us Christ in his humiliation, no book is
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  Speaker 1: more dedicated to the exaltation of King Jesus than the
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  Speaker 1: book of Revelation. Now, of course, all the books of
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  Speaker 1: the Bible are really pointing toward Jesus. I don't deny that,
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  Speaker 1: but in Revelation, we see him in his glory. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: right from the start, Revelation chapter one, it's like, hey,
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  Speaker 1: the revelation of Jesus Christ. And the next thing you know,
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  Speaker 1: John's buckled on the floor and It says he falls
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  Speaker 1: to the ground like a dead man. Why? Because he's
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  Speaker 1: seen Jesus in glory. And I love that this happens
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  Speaker 1: before we meet the monsters. In fact, the ones we
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  Speaker 1: get all fretting, scared, terrified about, the beast of the sea,
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  Speaker 1: the dragon. The first, you get a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: a hint in Revelation 8 and 9. But really, the
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  Speaker 1: real introduction to the dragon occurs in Revelation 12. the
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  Speaker 1: beast of the sea, Revelation 13, beast of the earth,
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  Speaker 1: which is the false prophet, Revelation 13, Revelation 14 is
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  Speaker 1: the harlot. You're halfway through the book before you really,
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  Speaker 1: really meet the devil and his minions. And you start
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  Speaker 1: the book and it's King Jesus in glory. And we
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  Speaker 1: start with Jesus, not the monsters, because if we fear him,
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  Speaker 1: if we fear the Lord, we have nothing to fear.
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  Speaker 1: And so John, the fear of the Lord comes over him.
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  Speaker 1: He craters down to the ground. And, uh, and he
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  Speaker 1: sees Jesus got like white hair, he eyes of fire
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  Speaker 1: and so on. And that's how the, that's how the
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  Speaker 1: book begins. And so it's a revelation to him. And
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  Speaker 1: as the book progresses, we'll see more revelations of him
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  Speaker 1: in glory. We'll see revelation chapter five. He's the lion
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  Speaker 1: and the lamb who was slaughtered and revelation, uh, revelation 14.
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  Speaker 1: He's the son of man standing on Mount Zion and
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  Speaker 1: triumph and glory. In Revelation 19, he's the King of
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  Speaker 1: Kings and Lord of Lords, and he's riding on a
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  Speaker 1: white horse. And so you see all these images that
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  Speaker 1: it's the same Jesus that John leaned his head up
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  Speaker 1: against at the Last Supper when there was death looming
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  Speaker 1: and it was a very, you know, the cross was
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  Speaker 1: on its way just right around the corner. Christ in
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  Speaker 1: his humiliation. But then we get Christ and glory and revelation.
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  Speaker 1: I love that. And that's a huge part of overcoming
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  Speaker 1: the fear. It's a little bit like if a kid's
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  Speaker 1: getting beat up by a bully, what will make him
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  Speaker 1: not be afraid? Pretending the bully's not there or knowing
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  Speaker 1: that there's someone 10 times stronger and more powerful than
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  Speaker 1: that bully and he's got your back. That's what revelation
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  Speaker 1: is about. Yeah, there are some bullies and you got
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  Speaker 1: to deal with them. But guess what? The triune God's
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  Speaker 1: got your back. This is the revelation of Jesus Christ
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  Speaker 1: and we see him in his glory. So just knowing
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  Speaker 1: that really sets the tone for what Revelation is really about.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: And you spend a little time on this and explain why.
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  Speaker 4: Because what does it mean when John says the time
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  Speaker 4: is near?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people debate that. And so you
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  Speaker 1: have some groups that we would call preterists, of which
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  Speaker 1: there are two categories. Preterist is Latin for basically, like
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  Speaker 1: it comes from a Latin word meaning past, which is
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  Speaker 1: basically most of this stuff happened in the past. Now,
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  Speaker 1: there are full preterist and partial preterist. A full preterist,
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  Speaker 1: that's actually heresy. They believe Jesus has already returned. They
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  Speaker 1: looked at the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
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  Speaker 1: They twist a scripture. In Matthew 26, I believe it's
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  Speaker 1: around 64, where Jesus tells Caiaphas from now on, you'll
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  Speaker 1: see the son of man riding on the clouds. A
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  Speaker 1: reference to Daniel chapter 7. And Jesus is talking about
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  Speaker 1: him spiritually coming and judging the temple, judging Jerusalem by
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  Speaker 1: destroying the temple. But they make that the end all
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  Speaker 1: be all and say like, hey, now we're living in
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  Speaker 1: the new heavens, the new earth. No, that's heresy. Because
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  Speaker 1: Orthodox doctrine teaches that Jesus is coming back physically. bodily,
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  Speaker 1: the resurrected son of man, son of God riding on
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  Speaker 1: the clouds. That is a future event. So the predators
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  Speaker 1: are wrong on that, the full predators, but there are also,
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  Speaker 1: there's a group called partial predators that will say, yeah, there,
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  Speaker 1: there is a fulfillment. There are a lot of fulfillments
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  Speaker 1: in the first century. The consummation is still in the future,
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  Speaker 1: but most of this was for the first century and
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  Speaker 1: applied to John and, and, and his context and so on. So, uh, and,
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  Speaker 1: and I think that That's valid. We shouldn't read the
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  Speaker 1: book of Revelation just to mean like, oh, this is
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  Speaker 1: only for the last seven years of history, which many
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  Speaker 1: futurists will say. It's just most of the book of
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  Speaker 1: Revelation is for the last generation in terms of how
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  Speaker 1: it will play out and apply. And I don't think
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  Speaker 1: that's true either, because what I say in my book
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  Speaker 1: is we have to be careful not to pin the
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  Speaker 1: book of Revelation to the remote past like preterists do.
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  Speaker 1: or the remote future like futurists do. And so there's
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  Speaker 1: a sense in which I think both are right. I
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  Speaker 1: think there is a sense in which, I mean, Revelation
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  Speaker 1: had to have applied to the original generation. It's a
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  Speaker 1: letter presented to seven historic assemblies inside of Asia Minor.
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  Speaker 1: And so these seven literal churches, it had to have
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  Speaker 1: meant something for them. It couldn't have been this whole
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  Speaker 1: letter about like, hey, you pretty much can ignore most
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  Speaker 1: of this because you know, Jesus isn't coming back for
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  Speaker 1: thousands of years. No, this is like these enemies, the
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  Speaker 1: beasts of sea and the earth and all this and Babylon,
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  Speaker 1: like they were fighting against these real monsters, if you will.
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  Speaker 1: And so this was part of the motivation is like,
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  Speaker 1: Jesus will say, if you want to conquer, you've got
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  Speaker 1: to do this. If you want to conquer, you got
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  Speaker 1: to do this. So it definitely applied to them in the,
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  Speaker 1: in the past, but it also applied in the future.
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  Speaker 1: It also applies in the future. And I view a
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  Speaker 1: lot of, Like we'll get to this later, the trumpets
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  Speaker 1: and bowls as being this sort of cluster of judgments
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  Speaker 1: toward the end of the age. So I do think
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  Speaker 1: it's also about that. And so I would say like, behold,
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  Speaker 1: I am coming soon. Is, is that like, is that
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  Speaker 1: the age of fulfillment is upon us? Jesus is coming
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  Speaker 1: back truly soon, but in every, he wants every generation
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  Speaker 1: to live with that expectation, right? but I don't think
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  Speaker 1: that it's speaking exclusively of the moment of his return,
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  Speaker 1: but the, but rather the events that have begun to
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  Speaker 1: be fulfilled in their day and are continuing to be
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  Speaker 1: fulfilled and are ultimately fulfilled in his coming. So I
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  Speaker 1: would see it as speaking of kind of like a,
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  Speaker 1: a long, um, uh, like a sequence of events rather
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  Speaker 1: than exclusively talking about the return of Jesus, if that
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  Speaker 1: makes sense.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Um, Okay, let's move to Revelation 2. Who is Jezebel?
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  Speaker 3: Who is Jezebel in Revelation 2?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Jezebel is.
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  Speaker 1: Jezebel in Revelation 2, some will say she's the envoy
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  Speaker 1: of Babylon. And so that'll have to be unpacked too.
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  Speaker 1: So Jezebel, she is portrayed as a false prophetess slash
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  Speaker 1: teacher in the church in Thyatira. And the problem, like,
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  Speaker 1: so for all the seven churches, Jesus will have, he'll
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  Speaker 1: have a message for each of them. Uh, most of
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  Speaker 1: them get rebuked for something and also praised for something. But, uh,
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  Speaker 1: although there are two that are only rebuked and not
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  Speaker 1: praised and, uh, and two, uh, two that are only,
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  Speaker 1: and two that are only praised and not rebuked. I
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  Speaker 1: think that's the right numbers anyway, but, uh, but generally
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  Speaker 1: it's a rebuke and a praise and, uh, and for
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  Speaker 1: the church in, in Thyatira, uh, they, their, their problem,
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  Speaker 1: their rebuke was they had tolerated that wicked woman Jezebel, uh,
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  Speaker 1: in leading people into sexual immorality and food sacrifice to idols.
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  Speaker 1: So it's basically idolatry and sexual immorality. I take sexual
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  Speaker 1: immorality to not just mean say like fornication and, and
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  Speaker 1: what we typically think of with sexual morality, but throughout revelation,
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  Speaker 1: it seems to be a symbol of spiritual compromise. So
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  Speaker 1: for instance, Babylon, we'll get to that in a gets
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  Speaker 1: the kings of the earth to drink the maddening wine
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  Speaker 1: of her adulteries and her sexual immoralities. I don't think,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: I see Babylon as like the wicked world system, culture, civilization,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: all of that. And so it's speaking of compromise of
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: political leaders, but I don't think it's just talking about
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the kings of the earth having sex with Babylon. Like
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that doesn't even make sense. Babylon being a symbol of
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: civilization and culture, particularly the wicked aspects of it. And
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: so I would say back to Jezebel, she bears a
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: lot of characteristics of Babylon, which comes later, but Jezebel's infection,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: if you will, occurs inside of the church. And so
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Jesus warns, if you guys listen to her teaching, you're
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: going to suffer and promises a punishment for Jezebel herself.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: So I would say, She's an expression of godless culture
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: and compromise. infecting the church. I think that word tolerate's
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: pretty key because in our culture today, tolerance is the
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: big buzzword. If you really love, you tolerate. And you
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: just tolerate whatever. And so Bible-believing churches that say, hey,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: we actually don't tolerate everything. Love that rejoices in the truth,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: that hates unrighteousness, 1 Corinthians 13. And so if we
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: want to be people who love, we have to love
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: them enough to tell them the truth that their actions
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: are destroying themselves, destroying others, and they're transgressing the commandments
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: of God. That's actually the most loving thing you can do.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: If it's true, tell them that. And so you can
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: actually see the infiltration of Jezebel in our churches today.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: where lots of churches have compromised, for instance, on the
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: issue of, yes, sexual immorality, saying that all kinds of
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: things are okay that aren't okay. That would be an example.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Gay marriage is great.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, gay marriage is totally fine.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: That's what they say.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: That's what Jezebel says.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: Okay, so now I want my audience to brace themselves
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: for this next question. Literally brace yourself. Because we're going
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: to talk about the rapture and Michael, where do you,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: where do you stand on the rapture? What is, where
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: did we get that term? What, when did that idea
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: develop and what century did that idea develop? Just talk
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: about the pre-tribulation rapture.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the rapture, The rapture means, it's the Latin
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: word rapturo, which means caught up. And it actually does
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: come from a verse in the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4.17.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: I'm pulling it up now. It says this. And so
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: it's talking about what's going to happen when Jesus comes back.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: It says, then we who are alive, who are left,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: will be caught up together with them in the cloud.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: So he said that when Christ returns, the dead in
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Christ will rise. will be raised first. So Jesus returns.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Those who have already died, well, their body's in a
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: grave somewhere, or maybe it's been cremated, whatever's happened to
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: their body. It's on earth physically somewhere, even if it's
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: just a few remaining molecules spread around, their body is
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: in some form or fashion remaining on the earth and
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: their spirit goes to heaven. Second Corinthians five, it says
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: that if we're absent from the body, we're present with
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: the Lord. Your spirit goes straight to heaven when you die,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: if you know the Lord Jesus. And by the way,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I hope you do. I hope you've put your faith
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for your sins. He
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: paid the penalty for your sins. And then three days later,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: he rose again so that he could give you eternal life.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: But we have to trust him and we have to repent.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Those who have are called. What's that?
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: That's amazing because at the end of my notes on
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: page five, I say, ask Michael to give a gospel presentation.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Go ahead.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: That's a truncated form, but I like what Charles Spurgeon
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: said in regards to preaching. He said, always have enough
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: of the blood of Jesus in your sermon to get
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: a sinner saved. And I always land big on the
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: gospel because otherwise I think preaching becomes moralism. But that's
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: another soapbox for another day.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I cut you off. You were about to say,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: so those who are in Christ, what.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Did you say?
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: So when you die... If you love the Lord, if
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: you know the Lord, your spirit goes straight to heaven.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: But there's still a future resurrection. Like your eternal future
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: is not a disembodied experience in a spiritual place called heaven.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Your eternal future is physical on a renewed heaven and earth.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: So in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Well,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: at the end of the age, he's going to recreate
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: the heavens and the earth. It's going to be brand new,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: restored heaven. physical. So you could think of it as
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: though he's resurrecting our planet and he's resurrecting our bodies.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: And so the two homes, the planet in which we live,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the body in which we live, will both be resurrected
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: at Christ's return. So in 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul's talking
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: about the sequence and he says, the dead in Christ
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: will be raised first. So their spirits in heaven will
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: somehow be reunited with ashes or bone or whatever remains,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: and they'll receive a glorified body that will resemble that
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ's body. Daniel 12 says that we'll shine
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: like the stars in heaven. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 says
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: that our body will be like Jesus' body. Same with
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Philippians chapter 3, our lowly body will be made like
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: his glorious body. And so the dead in Christ will
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: be raised first, but then those who are alive at
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: the time of Christ, it's Christ's return. So picture Jesus
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: is coming across the clouds of heaven, from east to west,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Matthew 24. He's skating across the clouds. Just remember, Acts
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: chapter 1, he's going to return just like he came,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: or just like he left. And so that is physically
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: and bodily, full preterists, absolutely wrong, heresy. Anybody ever claims
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: to be Jesus, even if they're performing miracles, don't believe it.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Jesus is coming back physically, bodily, riding on the clouds
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: of with myriads upon myriads of angels, with the sound
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: of an archangel. It's going to be loud. It's going
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to be bright. It's going to be unmistakable. And this
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: verse says, the dead in Christ will be raised. People
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: will be flying up into the sky to meet Jesus.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Other people will be coming from heaven and receive glorified by... Like,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: this is a spectacular event. This is better than any
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: 4th of July firework show you have ever seen. And
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: it says... Then we who are alive, who are left,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: will be caught up together. That's Latin, rapturo. And remember,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: you know, with the Roman Catholic Church being located in
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Rome and Jerome translated the Bible into Latin, we call
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: it the Latin Vulgate. People were used to reading this
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: word as rapturo. It's where we get rapture. It means
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: to be caught up with the clouds to meet the
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Lord in the air. So we will always be with
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words. Now,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: there are various ways of understanding this passage. You mentioned
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: pre-tribulation rapture. This would fall within a category we would
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: call futurists. It would also fall within a category we
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: would call dispensationalists. Dispensationalists believe that history played out over
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: dispensations that occurred over time. And they believe that what
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: we're living in right now is sort of a parenthesis
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: of so that God's program that had been underway for
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Israel was paused. The church was introduced as a great parentheses.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: And they would, they would, they get this from Daniel
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: chapter nine verses 24 through 27, where Daniel has 70 weeks,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: 70 weeks of years, 490 years. And, and so they, they,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: By their calculation, there's 483 years from a certain decree
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: of Nehemiah to Christ's triumphal entry. And so that was
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: sort of the culminating time for Israel, 483 years. But
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: there was one remaining seven-year period that they say Daniel
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: never addressed. And if you've ever read the Left Behind
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: books or seen the movies, if you ever read the
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: late great planet earth, which was the bestselling nonfiction book
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: of the 1970s. It's all along these lines. That's what
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: they believe. And you can kind of tell, I don't
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: believe it, but I love people who believe that. And
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I have dear friends who believe it and members of
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: my church who believe it, but I don't believe in
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a pre-tribulation rapture. And so we're going to get to
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: that part where So if Daniel said 490 years and
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: they say, well, it was 483 till the culminating moment
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: with Jesus. And then we're in this long parentheses that
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: is undefined where the prophetic clock on Israel stopped. And
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that seven years is just sort of floating and waiting.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And when the time of the Gentiles is complete and
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: all the Gentiles come in, they say, God will shift
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: back to his focus on Israel in the last seven
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: years of history and And it will be, that's what
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: they call the Great Tribulation. So dispensationalists, because it's like
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: they've got this dispensation for Jews and Gentiles and back
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: to Jews. And so that's how they think. There's the
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: strong distinction between Israel and the church. Like, hey, God's
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: got his program for the church during these last 2,000 years.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: But then he's going to go back to Israel. All
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: of that is part of dispensational theology. It's one of
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: a few versions of futurism. And so to come back
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: to the rapture passage, they would say the rapture is
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: actually part A of the second coming. To many, it
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: sounds like there are three comings of Christ for the dispensationalist. One,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: 2,000 years ago. Two, the rapture, which takes believers up
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: into heaven. And they dine with Jesus in glory and
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: peace and comfort. Meanwhile, over that next seven years, God's
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: going to start saving a whole bunch of especially Jewish people.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And not that no Gentiles will be saved during that. time,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: but especially Jewish people because God's reinitiating his program for Israel.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: And so, believers, we're just raptured in heaven. And if
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you've seen the Left Behind movies, you know, people are
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: driving airplanes, people are driving cars, and they just fly
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: up into the sky. Their clothes are left behind, et cetera,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: and everybody's trying to figure it out. Earth goes to
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: total pot. Antichrist rises to power. Seven years of hell
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: on earth. God's, you know, like Christians are up in
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: heaven celebrating, having a great time. Earth's going to just
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: total pot. And Antichrist rises to power. Like I said,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: makes a covenant with the people. Daniel 9 type stuff.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: And then there's a rebuilt temple. Lots more that I
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: could say about it. And then at the end of
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: all that, Christ returns. in glory. And so they would,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: they would say, well, it's really like part a part
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: B of the second coming separated by seven years. So
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: they would say first Thessalonians four 17 about the rapture.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: That's what it's about. It's about what happens before Jesus, uh,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: before that last seven year great tribulation, Jesus saves us
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: from the great tribulation and a bunch of Jewish people,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: especially get saved during the great tribulation. And then Christ
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: returns in glory. one key aspect of it is that
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: the rapture is kind of secret. In their view, Jesus
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: comes back and it's kind of like, hey, come on
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: up here. And we all just fly up and then
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: go away to heaven. And so I find this untenable.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I don't, I'll put it like this. I don't judge
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: anyone who holds this view. I don't think they're evil.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: I don't think they're bad. And I don't think they're dumb.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: So what I would say is I think it's really
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: hard to point to the Bible and say the second
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: coming occurs kind of twice. It's hard to deny that
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: a seven year difference really looks like a second and
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: third coming. In addition, in that passage in first Thessalonians
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: chapter four, when it says, when it says that we'll
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: be caught up and we'll meet the Lord in the air.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And I have a section in my book where I
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: talk about this and, There is a scholar at Denver
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Seminary named Craig Blomberg. He talks about this and he
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: says that Greek word for meet, meet the Lord in
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: the air. He says this was the normal Greek word
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: at the time to describe how if a king or
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: an ambassador, like a foreign dignitary was coming into your city,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't just like wait around for him to show
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: up like, oh, you know, King Caesar's knocking on the door.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: You'd roll out the red carpet. You'd send your retinue out.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: You'd have a big celebration, and you would send them
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: out to meet him, same Greek word, to meet Caesar,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: to meet the foreign dignitary, whoever it was, and to
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: welcome them back in the city with a big old parade.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: So that was the purpose. And so what I would say,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the purpose of the rapture is not to prevent God's
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: people from suffering. Acts 14.22, it's through many afflictions we
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: enter the kingdom of God. The purpose of rapture is
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: not to prevent us from suffering. The purpose of the
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: rapture is that we might welcome King Jesus back to
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: the earth. Because as I say in my earth, Jesus
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: deserves a parade. We're rolling out the red carpet for
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: our King and we're coming back. We're actually going to
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: live physically here. So I don't believe in a part
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: a part B of the second coming of Jesus. So
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: when somebody says, do you believe in the rapture? I
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: hear a lot of people say, I don't believe in
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: the rapture. Well, I think, I don't like that way
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: of saying it. What they usually mean by that is
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I would just,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I would say, I think we all believe in a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: rapture because as a Christian, we believe 1 Thessalonians 4.17.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: The question is not whether we're caught up with the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Lord in the air. The question is when. And I
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: would say not seven years before a great tribulation. I
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: would say when Jesus returns, we're caught up with the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Lord in the air and we come back down to
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the earth to welcome our King. And so we differ
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: in timing. Now there's one other category called the pre-wrath
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: rapture that says, well, we'll be here for a little
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: bit of the great tribulation rapture or great tribulation, but
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: not all of it. Some point after the second Thessalonians
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: chapter two, verses three and four, I call it the
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: two signs that the end is nigh. One I call
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: the temple blasphemy rapture. a man of lawlessness and antichrist
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: figure sets himself up in the temple and declares himself God.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: It's an allusion to Daniel chapter 11. And so, uh,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: and so that's one, there's this like great abomination. Some
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: say it's the symbolic temple is in, it's in the church.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Some say a temple will be rebuilt and it'll happen there. I,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: I think I'm kind of agnostic on it. I don't know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: but if someone's getting a giant following and creating, you know,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: doing a bunch of signs and wonders and claiming to
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: be God, I'm going to be like, that's it. Right. And, uh,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: and then the other one is the great apostasy and
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: those go together. This figure will lead tons and tons
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: of people astray. And so there are some who say
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: like sometime after that, then, uh, you know, or around
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: that the pre-wrath rapture will occur before like God's final
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: judgments are poured out on the earth. Uh, I think
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: we're on the earth until Jesus comes back. I think
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: we're caught up in the air until Jesus comes back.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's a secret rapture pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation. I
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: think we go through the tribulation. And as I say
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: in my book, the tribulation actually serves a purpose. When
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: you read the book of Daniel, suffering serves a purpose
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: for God's last days people. And the way I say
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: it in my book is suffering prevents the bride of
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Christ from becoming bridezilla. It has a purifying effect on
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: the church. And if you look at the church today,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: it's maybe not all that impressive but the bride is
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: going to be ready. And part of the way the
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: bride gets ready is actually through pain. And if you
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: think about your own life, most of our sanctification, most
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: of our conformity of Christ came because life hurts bad.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: And God uses that if we humble ourselves. And so
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the last day's church will be ready for Christ's return
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: because it'll be a painful last few years.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: And last point on the pre-tribulation rapture is that wasn't
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: popularized until like the 1830s, right? And What was the
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: historical understanding before that in the church?
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so a guy named John Nelson Darby in 1830,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: I believe it was, began teaching a systemized version of this,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: pretty much just what I told you. And that's where
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: it really started. Then the Schofield Reference Bible came out,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: and Schofield and Darby kind of, it was very influenced
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: by Darby, and it was like an incorporation incredibly popular
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: study Bible. And so a lot of people started becoming dispensationalists.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: And if you just pay attention to church history, there's
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: just been a change in the eschatology of the church.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Because there are a lot of questions, not all of
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: it's perfectly clear. Dispensationalism and this idea of a pre-trib
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: rapture doesn't seem to have existed at all before 1830.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: And then after 1830, began to grow and grow, and
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: especially with Hal Lindsey's late Great Planet Earth, then especially,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: especially with the Left Behind movies, sold millions upon millions
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: of books. So it's kind of novel. And now, with
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: that said, a dispensationalist scholar whom I really respect, his
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: name is Michael Spiegel. He is from Dallas Theological Seminary.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And he has a quote from Irenaeus, a church father
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: in the second century, who does seem to talk about
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: saints getting assumed into heaven at some point, perhaps before
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: a tribulation. But then he has other saints who live
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: through it, and so it's kind of confusing. So I'm
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: not going to go so far as to say no
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: church father ever referred to any kind of assumption into heaven,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: rapture into heaven. I'm just going to say it was
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: never systematized before, and almost totally absent until the year 1830.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: From what I understand about the Schofield Bible, a lot
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: of preachers in America started using that Bible. And I guess,
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm wrong, but commentaries were not
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: readily available. So they would actually use Schofield's notes in
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: the margins to preach from. And so if Schofield was
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: saying there's a preacher of rapture, then that's how it
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: became so popular.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Right. Absolutely. Yeah, that's absolutely how it happened. And I'm
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: not saying... Schofield did a lot of good for the Lord.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And I think it's great that he created that Bible.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: The study notes within the Bible. Not pulling a Joseph
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Smith here and talking about new scriptures. But actually... Like
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: on that point, that's actually my biggest thing with pre-tribulation
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: rapture is I think novel views of the end. Like
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I don't want new teaching. New teaching is pretty much
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: never good. Like I want the old truths. I want
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: the old rugged cross. Just give me like what's been
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: taught and passed down through history. Um, not just novelty,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: not good. And I see a lot of novelty in
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: the end time space. I mean, just think of, and
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I'm not considering dispensationalists at all Mormons because, uh, dispensationalists
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: are in the kingdom. I'll be hanging out and sharing
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: meals with them in eternity. Uh, not so with Mormons
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: because Mormonism is a cult. They don't believe Jesus is
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: actually God. Uh, they believe he was created among other things.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: And so not the same, but they do call themselves
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. There
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: tends to be a lot of novelty around the subject
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: of the end times. And I want far away from that.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Yes. Um, okay.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: So let's get to, uh, why you mentioned this in the,
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: in your book, uh, numbers, but why does the number
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: seven appear so many times? You say like 50 times
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: in the book of Revelation. And I mean, this is very,
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: just what does it mean? What does that number mean, seven?
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, seven means, I mean, it's God's perfect number, perfection, completion.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: So for instance, when we come across seven churches in
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Revelation two and three, So these weren't the only seven.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, there were way more than seven churches in
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: that day, but John chose seven to direct his letters to.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: So seven was real. It was literal. It was historical.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: These churches actually existed at the same time. It was
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: symbolic and it was symbolic of the complete church of
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ throughout the age. That's why I don't want
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: to pin revelation entirely to the remote past or entirely
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: to the last seven years of history. Because seven represents
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: the complete church. The whole book of Revelation was written
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: for you. The whole book of Revelation was written for me.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: It's written for all of us and has applications that
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: play out in our everyday lives. And I'm afraid that
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: if we say, oh, well, this is just for those
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: people dealing with the Romans or if you're dispensational, this
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: is just for when a revived Roman empire comes back
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: on the scene and a revived Caesar comes back on
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: the scene and it's great tribulate. Like I'm like, but,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: but what about now? This is meant to give us
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: hope now. And so seven is a, is a number
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: of completion.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: You mentioned, yeah, over 50 times in the book of revelation,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: the number seven is used and, uh, and it's just a,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: it's a symbolic number that means completion.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: And, uh, who are the, and well, I don't know
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: if I should ask this one. Um, Well, okay, in
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Revelation 7, who are the 144,000?
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the 144,000. Well, so let's back up a little bit,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: and I want to get us there, okay? So Revelation 1,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: big vision of Jesus. He's revealed as a high priest,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: and that is because in chapters 2 and 3, the
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: churches are symbolically called lampstands. Think temple. Temples have lampstands. Well,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the church is God's light in the world. And Jesus
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: is our great high priest is trimming the week, the,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: the wick of our lamps so that they continue to
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: shine through the darkness of these last days. And there
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: is some darkness, but we shine. And so then you
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: get into chapters four and five and you have chapter the, the,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: the throne is prominent in both. Uh, it's like, uh,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: it's a picture of the throne room of heaven. And
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: so first you have God, the father seated on the throne.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Then you have God the Son standing. So the Father seated,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the Son standing. That speaks of the Father's sovereignty. So
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: all the horrific things that occur throughout history and that's
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: clustered toward the end of the age, God the Father
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: is sovereign over all of it. And then in chapter 5,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: God the Son, called the Lamb who was slain, conquered it.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: John wants us to know all of these things before
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: we get to some of the mess that follows. It's like, hey,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: God the Father is sovereign. God the Son is conquered.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: And so the reason Revelation 5 is particularly important to
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: answer your question about chapter 7 is because there's something
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: parallel that happens between the two. And interpreting Revelation, what
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I find is a lot of people want to look
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to the news headlines to interpret Revelation. But the place
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: to look is we interpret Scripture with Scripture. And so
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: John will speak in parallel. So for instance, Revelation chapter 5,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: John is sobbing. And the reason John is sobbing is
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: because God the Father is holding a scroll, and that
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: scroll contains divine intel. This is God's plan for making
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: the world right, for redeeming the world. If Revelation 4
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: is about God's sovereignty over creation, Revelation 5 is about
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: his sovereign means of redemption through the Son. And so
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: John is sobbing, and the reason is that plan can't
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: be fulfilled unless a conqueror is found. And And there's,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: you know, angelic beings that are searching and they can't find, like,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: who's going to open the scroll? Who's worthy to open
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: the scroll? Not even God the Father can open the
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: scroll because he ordained from the beginning that redemption would
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: occur through a son, through an offspring of a woman.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: And so God's powerful enough, the Father, and yet even
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: God is limited by something. He's limited by his own promises.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: And as we read Revelation, we see that it's promised
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: that an offspring of woman, that's Genesis 3.15, we see
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: that someone from the tribe of Judah, someone from David's descendants,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: a Davidic king, has to be the one who conquered.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: And so the angelic beings are looking, and finally he hears.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: He hears that there is a conqueror. And he hears
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: that that conqueror is the lion of the tribe of Judah,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: the one who fulfilled all of these promises, who can
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: finally make the world right, who can redeem all things
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: and all of our pain, the one who can drain
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: the world of wickedness, the one who can draw John's tears.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: It's finally here. He hears of the lion of the
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: tribe of Judah. And so you could imagine what John's picturing,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Mufasa or Aslan-like, Aslan-like lion pouncing on the bad guys,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: beating up Rome, taking over the world. This was the
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Jewish expectation. A military messiah who would conquer the bad guys,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: symbolized by a lion. So he hears that there's a lion,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: but what he sees is very different. He sees a lamb.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: A lamb that's standing, but a lamb that had been slaughtered.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: He's standing because he conquered death. And it's hard to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: get any... more of a contrast than lion and lamb.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: And what he's showing us is that, yes, Jesus came
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: as the conquering Messiah, but he conquered differently than everyone thought.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: You thought he was going to be the military Messiah
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: symbolized by a lion. Instead, he was a martyr Messiah,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: a lamb who was slain, but he conquered death by
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: rising again and putting into effect his plan for making
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: the world right. That's what makes him a worthy conqueror.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: And so my point here is that Jesus isn't a
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: lamb instead of a lion. He's actually both. He's a,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: he's a lion because of his lamb. The way I
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: worded in my book is that his lamb like sacrifice
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: secures his lion like victory. And so, uh, but it,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: but what it's doing is it's adjusting Israel's in time expectation.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: And that'll happen a few times in revelation. It happens
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: again in revelation seven. Revelation 7 is a highly debated
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: text and it comes right after in Revelation 6. There
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: are all these plagues poured out and the Son of
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: God is about to return and people are crying out
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: for the rocks to fall on them saying, you know,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: who can save us from the wrath of God Almighty
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: and from the Lamb? And so it's like they're aware
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Jesus is coming back. Who can save us? Chapter 7 answers,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: the sealed servants of God. When wrath is poured out
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: upon the earth, God's people, sealed, will be saved. But interestingly,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: in Revelation 7, they're portrayed as 144,000, numbered as 12
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: tribes of 12,000 each. And so, like, who are these people?
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: In fact, Revelation 7 plays out in two scenes. These
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: 144,000 numbered Jewish tribes are scene one. Scene two, it's
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: just like shifts, real suddenly. And it follows the same
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: sequence we saw in Revelation 5, where John heard of
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: a lion, but then saw a lamb. Well, here he
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: heard numbered Jewish tribes, but then he turns to see,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: and what does he see? Innumerable tribes of innumerable tribes
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: from all across the globe, Gentiles, Jews, everything put together,
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: every tongue, tribe, and nation in heaven, and they're singing.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: And what I would argue, because there are some who
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: want to say, well, these 144,000, like Hal Lindsey in
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: his book refers to them as 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: who are going to go out after the rapture and
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: start spreading the gospel. And they're the ones who lead
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: all these people to Christ and seen to. And I'm
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: going to say, no, I don't think that's it. I
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: think that ignores the parallelism. And the parallelism is I heard,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: then I saw. I heard a lion, military Messiah. I
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: saw a lamb, martyr Messiah. I heard an army of
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: numbered Jewish tribes. Numbered is symbolic throughout Revelation for protected.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: These are sealed, numbered Jewish tribes. But then I turned
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: and saw innumerable throng of people from every tribe, tongue,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: and nation. And I would say, just as the lion
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: is the lamb, the 144,000 numbered Jewish tribes are the
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: innumerable tribes from around the globe. One and the same.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And they had died and gone to heaven. So like
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: the lamb, they're martyred. Revelation is a book of martyrs.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: It's not exclusively for martyrs. I think it's including those who,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: 1 Corinthians 15, die daily. It's for those who take
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: up their cross and follow Jesus. It's an instrument of death.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: But it is ultimately also a book for martyrs. And
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: it's saying that where the Jewish people expected not just
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: a military Messiah, they expected to be part of that military.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And if you look through the Old Testament, when they
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: would count tribes, it was often to go to war
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: because they wanted to know how many men do we
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: got in war? And these are actually men. In fact,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: what's interesting is if you cross-reference with, uh, with revelation
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: 14 with 144,000 appear again, they're not just male. They're
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: not just Jewish. They're also virgins and they have, uh,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: and they have a like mark on their forehead. And
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: so my, my question, like, are we really to imagine?
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: that the only people who are safe from the wrath
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: of God Almighty and from the Lamb in Revelation 6,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: that the only people safe from that are 144,000 male
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: Jewish virgins? Where's the hope for the rest of us? No,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: I think it makes much better sense of the cross-reference
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: with Revelation 14. The virgin aspect is symbolic of how
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: in Jewish understanding of holy war, they would abstain from
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: sexual activity. And so it's like, this is a pure,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: holy army of God, but it fights differently. It fights
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: like they're slain lamb commander, not by pouncing on bad guys.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: You get a lot of eschatologies these days where they're like, yeah,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: we're going to kill the bad guys and take over
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: the government. It's like, I hear people saying that online,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: like a lot. No, Jesus sheds his blood for his
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: enemies and he's modeling for us how we win the world,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: how to engage in holy war, And it's not by
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: killing people. And it's not by brandishing the world's weapons
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: and taking over. It's actually by laying down our lives
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: in sacrificial love, just like Jesus. And so I think
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: what Revelation is doing is it's reframing end times expectations.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: You wanted a military messiah, you got a martyr messiah.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: You wanted to be part of his great end times army.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: One of the war scrolls calls it the sons of
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: light versus the sons of darkness. And here's a cool thing.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: In one of the war scrolls found in the Dead Sea,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: it said that the Jewish armies of the last days,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: the sons of light, would wash their robes of the
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: blood of the Gentiles that they killed. This was the
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Jewish expectation. You get to Revelation 7 and the image
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: is very different. They're washing their robes in the blood
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: of the lamb who was slain because their sins are forgiven.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: How much more beautiful is that? You see, what God
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: is doing is he's showing how he overcomes the world's bloodlust.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: As I say in my book, he buried it in
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: the grave he walked away from. He absorbed the world's tyranny.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: He absorbed the world's evil. He absorbed the world's sin.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: He took all of it on his shoulders. And three
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: days later, he rose again, the slaughtered lamb who stands.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: And we join him because even if we go all
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: the way on to dying for Jesus, we still come
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: back to life with him. And we conquer death like, uh,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: like he does. So we have nothing to fear. So
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: I think that's the real message.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: And what is, uh, what role does ethnic Israel play
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: in the end times?
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: Ethnic Israel. So, you know, I would say my belief
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: is I do believe because especially of Romans chapter 11.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: So I'll pull in a cross reference here. It does
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: seem to indicate that within a hair's breadth of Christ's return,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: it says, quote, all Israel will be saved. And in
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: the context of Romans 9 through 11, the majority of
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: the times where he'll talk about Israel, he's speaking of
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: ethnic Israel. And so I do believe there is a
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: future for ethnic Israel. Now, as Gentiles, and I'm a Gentile,
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: I believe I was, to use Romans 11 imagery, I
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: was grafted in to the olive tree. And therefore, as
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: a Gentile, I'm a co-heir of the promises of Jesus
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: and and the promises that were made to Abraham, Isaac,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: and Jacob. I'm not a second-class citizen. I think that
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: some end-times theologies, in my opinion, Beckett, I think that people,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: they either obsess over the Jews, almost worship them. They
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: wouldn't really worship them, but it's like this wild obsession
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: with Jewishness, or they think Jewishness is completely irrelevant, or
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: even worse, all Jews or are malevolent and they accuse
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: the world uh all the world's problems is coming to
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: the jews and i've been really concerned about that and
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: and i would say you know like my co-host on
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: the radio michael miller he is jewish he's like you
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: would be amazed at how many christians will come up
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: to me and it's almost like they expect me to
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: glow because i'm jewish i'm like i'm just a little
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: dude like you so Uh, so I would say, I,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think we should obsess over Jewishness. I don't
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: think the end times is Jew centric. I think it
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: is Christ centric and Christ is a Jew. And I
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: do believe there will be a massive, I call it
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: a Jewish great awakening at the end of the age
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: because of Romans 11. I think there are some indications
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: in revelation 11 as well, uh, of, uh, Jewish salvation, but, uh,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: at the end of the age. but I do believe
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: there's a future for ethnic Israel. I do believe the
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: majority of them will be saved before Christ returns. And
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: I think that's one of the signs that Christ is
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: soon to return.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: I like that. Okay.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: We're going to move kind of quickly through these questions now.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: So who are the long winded? I know. I hear
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: what you're saying back here.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: Very good. You're very good at explaining this now.
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: Um, I, uh, what, who are the two? I'm going
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: to skip to revelation 11. What, who are the two
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: witnesses in revelation 11?
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: So the two witnesses, there are those who believe they
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: are two literal individuals who are coming in the future
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: in the last seven years of history, and they will
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: call down plagues on all their enemies and kill a
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: bunch of people. And then, and this is actually the
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: vision John sees. He sees two witnesses. And they do
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: call down, the vision has them calling down plagues and
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: killing a bunch of unbelievers. And then at the end
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: of that, they themselves are killed and the world celebrates
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: and passes each other gifts and so on. And then
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: I want to say after three and a half days,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: which three and a half is an interesting number in Revelation.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: It seems to represent the time of evil. After three
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: and a half days, the witnesses will rise again and
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: ascend into heaven. So that's how, that's how it plays out.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: And then there's a giant earthquake and a whole, and
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people, it says gave glory to God.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: That is they're saved. And since it takes place in
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: at least symbolic Jerusalem, I would, I would say this
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: could be a pointer toward Israel being massively saved in
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: the end. But that said, the question with any vision
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Beckett is what does it mean? And we can't automatically
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: assume it means this will play out literally exactly as
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: we read it. Most visions are symbolic. I mean, Numbers
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: chapter 12, like the Lord says, if there's a prophet,
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  Speaker 1: I speak to him in a dream or in a
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  Speaker 1: vision in riddles and dark sayings, but not to you, Moses,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: I speak to you face to face. So like, you know, Moses,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: had a special level of prophetic revelation. Like he's hearing
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: direct from the mouth of God. It says he's, you know,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: God spoke to a mouth to mouth, but most prophets
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: it's symbolic. And so an apocalyptic literature in general to
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: which revelation is a, it's a genre that revelation belongs.
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  Speaker 1: Everyone under everyone understood this is symbolic. Everyone understood it.
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  Speaker 1: We don't understand that today because the genre is out
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: of print, except for the fact that it exists in revelation.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: We just don't know. You know, your average person doesn't,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: but scholars do. And revelation should be understood symbolically for
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: the most part. And so I would take this to
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: be symbolism. And a few of my indications there, besides
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: the genre of it, would be they aren't just called
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: two witnesses. They're also called two olive trees, which is
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: a shout out to Zechariah. And then uh, they're also
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: called to lampstands, which is a shout out to revelation one, two,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: and three, where the seven churches are called lampstands. And
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: I can't remember how many times call it 30 times.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: The word lampstand is used in revelation, call it 20 times,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: be conservative that the word lampstand is used in the
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: book of revelation. Then, uh, every other time it refers
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: to church. So why, in this singular instance, would we
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: understand these two witnesses to these two lampstands? Why would
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: we say, well, Revelation 11 is special. It doesn't mean
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: the church. It means just two individuals. I don't think so.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: That'd be another reason to consider it symbolic. So we've
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: got the genre of literature. We've got that these two
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: witnesses are also called two lampstands, which elsewhere represents the church.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, I believe the two The two
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: witnesses represent the church of Jesus Christ throughout this age.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: And I can explain some more of that later if
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: you want. Also, the one who kills them is actually
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: a beast that rises from the abyss, and it says
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: it makes war on the two witnesses. That's an allusion
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: to Daniel 7, I believe, 21 and 25, where a
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: beast makes war on the saints. So it seems as
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: though that's actually just playing out right there in Revelation 11, 7.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: A beast makes war on the two witnesses, a.k.a. the saints, a.k.a.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: the church. Besides, it'd be really weird linguistically to say
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: you make war on two people. You make war on nations.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: You make war on big groups, not just two people.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Those are a few reasons, and there are more, why
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: I believe it's the church. And so as the church,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: I believe these verses speak to our witness in this
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: age that we are to be that light that shines.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: And just as the olive trees would produce oil that
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: keeps the light shining, that God will continue our supply
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: of his spirit so that we can keep shining, so
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: that we can bear faithful witness, bold prophetic proclamation to
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: the gospel of Jesus throughout this age, and that the
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: world will reject us and hate us I don't take
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: the calling down of plagues literally. And part of the
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: reason for that is that in Luke chapter nine, when
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Jesus's disciples say, Hey, do you want us to call
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: down fire from heaven and kill our enemies? Just like
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: Elijah did. Jesus says, no, you don't know what spirit
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: you're of. It seems to me that in the new
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: covenant era, it's no longer acceptable to treat your enemies
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: in some of the ways they did in the old Testament.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: I don't think it complies with the rest of revelation
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: either because where martyrdom and laying down your life for
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: your enemies is the standard. And that's actually what the
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: witnesses do here. They lay their lives down for their
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: enemies before they're risen, risen up from the grave and
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: people are saved. So I don't think the shoe fits there.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: If we want to say like, yeah, they're going to
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: literally call down plagues. I think it speaks of God's
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: judgment coming as a result of our words. Jeremiah, it says,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: you know, it talks about his words being fire. And
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: so I think it's speaking to like, to their bold
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: preaching and judgments that come as a result of that,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: of that bold preaching.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: So Michael, why don't we stop there?
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: And cause I have at least another hour of questions
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: to ask you and we'll just make this part one
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: and then we'll continue part two later, but let's leave
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: it there for now. And guys, again, the book is
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: called a world, the world made right finding confident hope
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: in the book of revelation.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: It's also in audio, right? Michael.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did the voice for it. It was kind
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: of fun, actually. It's got audio. It's got Kindle, whatever
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: format you want. You can buy it anywhere books are sold,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: published through Zondervan, which is HarperCollins.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: So we're going to leave it there for now. This
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: is part one. And we'll also see you guys back
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: at part two.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Michael.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: Wait, don't touch that dial. Please like and subscribe. And also,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: please consider becoming a patron on Patreon. For as little
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: as $ 5 a month, you can really help us out
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: on the show. The link is below, and we so,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: so appreciate it.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett
• 1:03:27
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• 1:03:32
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• 1:03:36
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• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: website at beckettcook.com.